<NathanKell>
Ah, the rocket mascot of the Detroit Pistons.
<Pap>
ferram4: I am trying to get the proper FAR information for the shuttle wings in SSTU. They have the Strakes integrated into the wing as one part. I tried to follow the tutorial, but the different shapes of the 2 "wings" integrated into each other stopped me from figuring it out
<blowfish>
yeah, I think FAR doesn't really support compound wings
<ferram4>
Nope.
<blowfish>
they are assumed trapezoidal
<ferram4>
FAR's solution to that is, "make it multiple parts"
<Pap>
Ah, ok, so they cannot be configured, good to know, I will stop trying, thank you
<NathanKell>
yeah, alas there isn't really a solution there :/
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<blowfish>
not unless the wing overhaul is still a thing
<ferram4>
It is still planned.
<ferram4>
I have no idea how to get the geometry data I need though
<ferram4>
KSP is just not well-built for this sort of stuff.
<ferram4>
Too much geometric freedom given to the player before anyone asked, "okay, what do we need to do for aero?"
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<ferram4>
Gross incompetence in planning
<blowfish>
what's the hard part to figure out? Axial alignment?
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<ferram4>
You have two wing parts next to each other.
<ferram4>
Are they overlapping in such a way that the shapes need to be merged? If so, how do you do this?
<blowfish>
mmh yeah
<ferram4>
Are they close, but not overlapping within their central plane, so that realistically they should be merged, but it isn't obvious? How do you handle this?
<ProjectThoth>
Glue.
<ferram4>
Are they not overlapping at all, one is simply an extension of the other. How do you handle this?
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<ferram4>
And that's before we get to the part where depending on the way it's solved I have to be careful about not introducing infinities somewhere.
<ferram4>
And not even asking about performance.
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<Rokker>
leudaimon: sorry, the source is elon musk
<Rokker>
so take it with a grain of salt
<leudaimon>
sure rokker, but where is it? nothing on twitter where he frequently gives this kind of wild prediction...
<Rokker>
leudaimon: check twitter again
<Rokker>
leudaimon: he posted it on instagram first, just posted it on twitter a few seconds ago
<leudaimon>
oh, I see.. had looked up when you first said
<leudaimon>
lamont, I found an issue with PEG... when physics kicks in before lift off (on reverting for example), the count down for the pitch program gets crazy... I'm assuming it uses mission time, right?
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<SpecimenSpiff>
@NathanKell|NOMZ Here is an upgraded version of that launcher. Still does that flip at 2nd stage, and PEG went kind of wonky on me during the third stage, I had to adjust lots. It was aimed at a 185x185 orbit, and I ended up at 210x19 at third stage burnout, and out of coms to fix it :( https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1rBRvtjUPCNWkxkUzhfNTNZS2M
<SpecimenSpiff>
would love to see if you can optimize it to get fix that flip and get the extra ~100m/sec to get orbit on the third stage
<leudaimon>
lamont, I don't use autostage, so hadn't found this issue before PEG
<lamont>
SpecimenSpiff: i only see 8457 dV in the bottom three stages?
<SpecimenSpiff>
that seems wrong, I had over 9k
<SpecimenSpiff>
but I just discovered that 3rd stage delete increases my dV, so new version coming
<lamont>
yeah it seems to really hate your high TWR upper stage
<lamont>
yeah your upper stage goes from a TWR of 1.98 to 7.95 in 1m45s
<lamont>
and that is coming off of a stage that goes from 0.4 to 0.8
<lamont>
my guess would be that you need more dV in the lower three stages so that you insert with those, or that you need to have less TWR in the 4th stage
<SpecimenSpiff>
I pulled the third stage, its now much more like real titan. it did seem that i was doing something wrong if I needed more than a titan to get that to orbit
<SpecimenSpiff>
of course now its a boring replica rocket, but im up against a deadline to get this mission done
<lamont>
yeah, i found that using three stages to orbit often lifts less than just using the first 2 stages alone
<lamont>
and makes it look more like a historical rocket, which is good because there’s generally reasons behind that design
<lamont>
heh, yeah using two AJ-10 stages seems obviously wrong to me
<lamont>
you could go 2xAJ-10 on a single upper stage then maybe 3x or 4x LR87
<SpecimenSpiff>
hm, but now peg nans on the pad
<lamont>
sometimes it un-NANs itself when you launch
<lamont>
generally you want to be building things that have 1.0-1.6 TWR on the pad and have 0.4-1.0 starting TWR on the uppers
<lamont>
if i could figure out the math to teach PEG how to insert coast periods this would probably work
<lamont>
the other thing to do would be to play with your target orbit, it may work better at a higher orbit
<SpecimenSpiff>
yeah, my upper starts at 1.6 ends at 7.5
<lamont>
i’m reasonably certain PEG will barf on that stage
<SpecimenSpiff>
interesting, it went to stable peg when I fired the 2nd stage, we'll see what happens
<SpecimenSpiff>
massive pitch up since I was in a low turn before that
<SpecimenSpiff>
yeah, it barfed on the high twr
<lamont>
my guess is that either you need coast phases inserted and you can’t do it in a single burn — and/or that the single burn maneuver would violate the optimum steering law (the A and B values constrain how PEG changes the pitch angle rate and while a human can mash buttons to maybe get it into a 185x185 orbit in a single burn, it won’t be an optimal burn)
<SpecimenSpiff>
it claimed stable guidance, but burned me to a 500km x -160km and stopped, when I had 180x180 programmed
<lamont>
yeah i’d say build it to look more like a NASA launch vehicle with a lower TWR upper.
<SpecimenSpiff>
I'll have to look at what the upper was for ranger, but that's much heavier than my probe
<SpecimenSpiff>
that might be my answer, try and fling more to the moon
<SpecimenSpiff>
but if I put more mass there, then the titan doesnt get me to orbit
<SpecimenSpiff>
basically this is a tli stage on top of titan, which in theory should be easily doable
<SpecimenSpiff>
or maybe it would be on titan II, not titan I...
<SpecimenSpiff>
but even the titan 2nd stage was at 7 twr at burnout, I think it might have made orbit if not for that, peg was claiming it would so do, but didnt, it let the ap go too high
<SpecimenSpiff>
lol every change I make to this launcher, its getting more efficient, smaller and more dV, but the twr is going up and up...
<SpecimenSpiff>
I think I'll accept it, and just not use peg
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<Rokker>
~thisday
<ThisDay>
July 28: In 1959, the Atlas D makes its first successful flight following 3 consecutive failures. The first successful Ranger mission, Ranger 7, launches in 1964. In 1970, the Minuteman III completes its 25th and final R&D launch.
<lamont>
oh i probably need to update to the latest proc avionics and shit to use this, probably why my dV numbers are so weird as well… i’m still not playing with any of the new tech tree stuff...
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<NathanKell>
>'first successful'
<NathanKell>
>'7'
<NathanKell>
Ah, Ranger.
<lamont>
SpecimenSpiff: I got PEG to work on a Titan II + AJ-10 TLI but it was not very efficient at all and racked up the gravity losses
<lamont>
really need to figure out how to put coast phases into burns
<lamont>
also need to upgrade the PEG algorithm
<NathanKell>
butbut why would you ever want to coast except to go to a high orbit?
<lamont>
because you get something more like an impulsive burn off of the high TWR upper stages
<lamont>
so you still want to boost your apo up a bit above 185, but you need to coast to an impulsive burn to circularize there
<NathanKell>
Oh right sorry, kick stages
<NathanKell>
I was still thinking liquids
<NathanKell>
or rather, guided liquids
<NathanKell>
PEG's not handling a 2 minute upper right?
<lamont>
well it is a liquid stage, its just a mildly kerbalized design which a high TWR
<NathanKell>
or do you mean a 30s kick stage?
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: wanna pass me the latest version?
<lamont>
a 1.67-4.70 TWR 2m upper stage
<NathanKell>
there's a second LR91 there now?
<lamont>
yeah i made it better by going to a single AJ-10 TLI stage and shrinking it to 3250 dV but its still not liking all the high TWR engines in the rocket
<lamont>
could probably run the pitch program for the entire booster phase which would help with the gravity losses, but i’m not sure that would make PEG any happier — it really wanted to burn up at a 65 degree angle and rack up gravity losses
<NathanKell>
night!
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<Sigma88>
0/
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<Maxsimal>
o/
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<probus_>
\o Maxsimal
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<Maxsimal>
What's up probus?
<ThisDay>
July 28: In 1959, the Atlas D makes its first successful flight following 3 consecutive failures. The first successful Ranger mission, Ranger 7, launches in 1964. In 1970, the Minuteman III completes its 25th and final R&D launch.
<Probus>
Not much...
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<Pap>
o/
<Maxsimal>
Heya Pap
<Pap>
o/ Maxsimal
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<Maxsimal>
Relieved to be done with classes? Are you moving now with your summer stuff done, or do you live near your college?
<Pap>
Yes I am very much so! No, I am not of the typical college age. We own a house and I commute to classes.
<Pap>
I try to do most of them online in order to still keep a full-time job and get my studies done
<Maxsimal>
Oh jeesh, how do you have time to do so much modding then? :P
<Pap>
Maxsimal: that is my free time. I have stopped watching TV for the most part and I only sleep about 4-5 hours a night :)
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Ouch. And you don't even get any time to actually play RO. That's some dedication.
<Pap>
Maxsimal: Yeah, there are some days that I will play instead of mod. Also, my job takes about 50% of my effort, so I have a lot of down time at various times throughout the day to work on things
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Oh yeah that's good. Are you in IT? My job takes anywhere from 25% to 150% (overtime) at unpredictable times :P.
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<Pap>
Maxsimal: not IT, I am a freight analyst (spreadsheet geek) for an automotive electronics company. My busy times come in waves, and will be not busy at all and then over busy like you described as well
<Sigma88>
Are there jobs that don't do that?
<Pap>
Probably not
<Sigma88>
:)
<Pap>
Sigma88: how did your RSS attempts go?
<Maxsimal>
Lots of jobs don't do that. Not that we'd want most of those.
<Sigma88>
Maybe if you are an assembly line worker...
<Pap>
Yeah, the mind numbing jobs I couldn't do
<Sigma88>
Pap I didn't even start
<Pap>
Gotcha
<Sigma88>
I got busy and forgot about it
<Pap>
:)
<Maxsimal>
I'm looking forward to getting back to my speed run - I've updated from master, want to see how much things have changed since I last got to play.
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<Pap>
Maxsimal: I "hope" to get your sounding rockets folded in this weekend!
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Cool! Let me know if you have concerns with the tuning especially. Though I just finished the era of sounding rocket grinding, so it won't help me :P
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<Bornholio>
pap last time i played i was getting getting weird KCT BP changes including showing -bp available do you have an issue you want reporting to, for balance issues also
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<Pap>
Bornholio: I do not, that sounds like something new
<Bornholio>
i'll try and duplicate it later, not squite sure what I did but it may have involved clicking purchase of already purchased science nodes so i could get the higher ones i'd not yet purchased
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<Probus>
Boy would I love a mod that would let you sort engines by ignitions, isp, thrust, throttleable, etc... (hint, hint, nudge, nudge)
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<xShadowx>
not sure if you can add sort buttons at top of catalog
<xShadowx>
woulda been nice :P
<soundnfury>
Probus: just memorise what all the engines do
<soundnfury>
so you know which one to use without looking :p
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<Bornholio>
if you use filter extensions it sorts them by fuel type.
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<SlainteMaith>
Go to Ireland for two weeks and MechJeb has new stuff in. Anything else I miss?
<Bornholio>
papbranch=master
<SlainteMaith>
Is that like a pap smear, only in tree form?
<SlainteMaith>
Oh. I looked it up. New tech tree?
<Bornholio>
the poor guy has never heard that joke before
<SlainteMaith>
Yeah. It wasn't really funny, I'm afraid. I'm too sober to be funny.
<NathanKell|WORK>
There have been a bunch of improvements to it and to RO yeah
<NathanKell|WORK>
we're close enough we merged the branches to master
<SlainteMaith>
Nice! Looks like I might have to do some version-checking when my brain finally re-adjusts to US time.
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<APlayer>
Hi people! So, I am currently collecting some realism mods and complementing them with MM patches to create a personal ultra-lightweight "realism overhaul". I believe all that's left is to nerf solar panels. Now, the question is, is there an approximate factor that I should apply? How does RO itself handle the issue?
<NathanKell|WORK>
There isn't, no.
<NathanKell|WORK>
RO works because it actually makes parts require the EC they should, so using real values for solar panels and RTGs works.
<NathanKell|WORK>
The fundamental problem with your assumption is that stock isn't off from reality by some linear scaling factor. It's all over the map.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Probes require tons of EC. Pods require next to none. Reaction wheels are just magic. Solar panels and RTGs aren't terribly comparable. ISRU is...hahahaha. Etc.
<APlayer>
NathanKell: I see... What should I do, in this case?
<NathanKell|WORK>
It depends on what you want.
<NathanKell|WORK>
If you want "KSP with larger size planets" play smurff or ROMini I'd say.
<NathanKell|WORK>
If you want stuff to make sense, there isn't really a shortcut to RO.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Sure you can turn some stuff off (limited ignitions, part failure, ullage, whatever) but you'll still need to start from RO.
<NathanKell|WORK>
But if you, e.g., turn off limited ignitions, then suddenly there's no reason at all to use inefficient but infinite-ignition engines.
<NathanKell|WORK>
The problem is that to get an RO 'lite' you need to (a) start from RO, but then (b) go ahead and rebalance a ton of stuff.
<Maxsimal>
if you're just worried about part count, you can install fewer of the recommended mods,
<APlayer>
I have a very heavily modded install but I never managed to get RO to work. It either failed during installation or KSP crashed on startup. So I collected my own "suite" of mods over time, and started adding various simple patches to it to have things work more like they do in reality.
<NathanKell|WORK>
RO is fairly balanced because, well, the laws of physics are. :]
<APlayer>
Now, really, I believe I only lack a way to balance EC, which was my initial question...
<NathanKell|WORK>
Why not create a clean install (in another folder), install RO, and see how you like it.
<NathanKell|WORK>
If you haven't even tried it yet, you won't know ;)
<NathanKell|WORK>
And you also won't know what parts you want to skip.
<NathanKell|WORK>
(if any)
<APlayer>
I did exactly that to install RO. It failed, multiple times, at various points. Eventually I gave up, although I sure would like to play RO.
<Maxsimal>
Failed downloads from ckan?
<Maxsimal>
That happens
<Maxsimal>
More of a problem with downloads getting interrupted from github through ckan than anything to do with RO though.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Well, you're in the right place for being walked through installing it :)
<APlayer>
CKAN failed every time I tried, then I did it manually a few times. The installs took quite some time (obviously, the list of mods is huge), but every time KSP just crashed on startup.
<NathanKell|WORK>
At one point CKAN was serving 1.3 versions of things, so that would explain your crashes
<NathanKell|WORK>
You're on 1.2, yes ?
<NathanKell|WORK>
how much RAM?
<NathanKell|WORK>
(and OS)
<APlayer>
Nope, 1.3. But I did it in 1.1 and 1.2 when I tried it.
<APlayer>
8 GB of RAM, OS is Windows 7.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ok. Well, we're happy to walk you through getting a running 1.2 RO install :)
<APlayer>
Uh, right now I am playing an 1.3 career - I will keep that in mind when I feel like I am ready to get an 1.2 RO install, though. Thanks a lot.
<APlayer>
Wait, is it "a" or "an" when followed by "one"?
<Maxsimal>
a
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<APlayer>
Sounds better, but the rule is "an" when followed by a vocal...
<Maxsimal>
Try Ampyear + a life support mod where the kerbals depend on EC
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: so you said my KCT is outdated, should i download the 1.2.2 dev build?
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<APlayer>
Really? Because solar panels seemed much too strong compared to real life, for me. I mean, you cannot possibly power a rover or an ion engine with such small solar panels... Not sure about probe and kOS cores.
<Rokker>
TheKosmonaut: kek
<Bornholio>
thats a problem with ion engines not the panels
<APlayer>
Maxsimal: I am using Kerbalism, let me have a look at AmpYear.
<APlayer>
Bornholio: I mean ignoring the overpowered thrust. If they were on realistic thrust levels (which, again, is impossible unless you can keep them on while on-rails)
<Maxsimal>
APPlayer: I think Kerbalism already does background processing for EC
<NathanKell|WORK>
APlayer: That issue is because, as I said, KSP can't decide how much power things require, not because solar panels are 'OP' (or, for that matter, underpowered)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pods require no EC at all. Probes require an insane amount (for their batteries)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ion engines provide thrust from plot particles
<NathanKell|WORK>
And then there's spotlights.
<NathanKell|WORK>
*that* is your problem, that the EC draws are so haphazard.
<NathanKell|WORK>
And you can't fix that by scaling solar panels up or down.
<APlayer>
Humm, okay...
<NathanKell|WORK>
Because if you scale them down, because ion engines, then you require a bunch of them *just to keep a tiny probe alive*
<NathanKell|WORK>
and pods still require no EC :P
<APlayer>
I guess that's beyond what I can do with a short, universal MM patch, then. That has to be done per-part.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Exactly
<NathanKell|WORK>
You can get away with doing a linear scale on tanks and engines
<NathanKell|WORK>
because they're actually generally in sync with each other
<NathanKell|WORK>
(all about 4-5x too heavy)
<APlayer>
Engines too?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Engines have about 1/4 to 1/8th the TWR they should, yes
<APlayer>
Heh, didn't know KSP was actually harder than RL in some aspects.
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<NathanKell|WORK>
that's how SMURFF can do it all with a single patch (or ROMini, which I wrote before SMURFF, which also visually scales parts to make things fly better in RSS/10x/etc)
<APlayer>
Well, yes, I heard about the tank thing, but no more.
<SlainteMaith>
I think Eve might be harder than Venus--from perspectives of gravity and atmosphere. Not sure about temps.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Eve has higher surface gravity than Venus, yeah
<NathanKell|WORK>
It doesn't have lower density and pressure tho
<NathanKell|WORK>
(Venus is at about 90atm at ground level, Eve is only 5atm)
<APlayer>
Is there anything else I may have missed, then? I use a planet rescale mod, Kerbalism (which accounts for most of the obvious manned mission troubles), a patch for reaction wheels, planning to use Engine Ignitor, will (now) patch tanks and engines.
<SlainteMaith>
Ah. Well then. Depends on how one solves for 'harder.' =)
<Pap>
APlayer: A better Contract System
<Pap>
Also, there is a new mod called BARIS that simulates production times, etc
<regex>
Can stock KSP /ever/ make sense?
<APlayer>
A new cool mod I haven't heard about? That's a pity. I need to fix that immediately.
<Maxsimal>
SMURFF, if you don't want to patch tanks and engines yourself..
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: speaking of BARIS, Angel-125 just cut us a 1.2 build <3
<Pap>
Did he!? Nice
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Googling didn't turn up a link, can you link it?
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: whenever i hear smurff i think about how the guy writing it came in to ask you advice on how to do it
<NathanKell|WORK>
Rokker: yeees? I mean, that's a thing that does happen sometimes :]
<NathanKell|WORK>
Rokker: Ah sorry and yes you want the latest 1.2 release off spacedock for KCT
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<NathanKell|WORK>
I think it's 1.3.5.9 or something
<Rokker>
i just found it funny
<NathanKell|WORK>
Why? It was basically a revision of ROMini
<NathanKell|WORK>
that got rid of the rescaling
<regex>
People play this game in all sorts of ways.
<NathanKell|WORK>
ikr :]
<NathanKell|WORK>
those weird realism nerds
<regex>
I mean, RO is obviously the /correct/ way to play it, but there's nothing wrong with enjoying it in other ways.
<APlayer>
Aww, BARIS is for 1.2
<SlainteMaith>
*Laughs*@regex
<Pap>
APlayer: No, it is for 1.3, he made us a 1.2 version
<APlayer>
I haven't found anything at all by googling for "ksp BARIS", forgive me that
<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, I found something GLORIOUS. A master's thesis on modelling engine performance from the ground up, including gas generator performance.
<NathanKell|WORK>
!g buzz kerman's race into space
<SlainteMaith>
Pap, I might have made a bad joke involving your tree earlier. Please don't scroll up. As Bornholio pointed out to me: it's not worth it.
<Rokker>
i know im prolly in the minority here
<ferram4>
Also, I discovered that my O/F ratios are not wide enough. Apparently I need to include 0.1 - 15 or something to handle what's going on in the preburners and gas gens.
<Rokker>
but i kinda prefer BASPM to BARIS in a number of aspects
<NathanKell|WORK>
TRAITOOOOOOR
<ferram4>
For kerolox anyway. I have no idea what I need for hydrolox. I'll get there eventually.
<NathanKell|WORK>
I couldn't get past the plumes in the intro screen
<Pap>
lol SlainteMaith I saw it, no worries, I've heard it all before
<NathanKell|WORK>
urff I gotta go eat lunch before the fruit's gone
<schnobs>
what you talking about?
<regex>
Obviously the availability of fruit in the Valva offices is lacking.
<SlainteMaith>
NathanKell|WORK You know Buzz Aldrin's Race into Space was remade, right?
<regex>
^Valve.
<Rokker>
SlainteMaith: i just mentioned it
<Rokker>
liek 10 lines up
<SlainteMaith>
Ah. Good on ya.
<Rokker>
SlainteMaith: there are some good and some bad aspects of BASPM imo
<SlainteMaith>
Sorry. Even with a 42" monitor, this text is too much for me to follow easily.
<APlayer>
And, while we are at that - is there any mod or something that makes developing new rockets cost funds? That is, to encourage reusing old rockets for new missions, rather than have a custom fitted rocket for every satellite launch.
<APlayer>
I imagine RO would benefit from such a thing for career saves.
<regex>
Part unlock costs represents that to some extent
<APlayer>
Well, no, I don't like that mechanic. I usually turn it off, because it is just annoying, and IMO does not add anything to the direction I am asking about.
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<regex>
Okay, well, get coding then.
<Pap>
APlayer: Look at ScrapYard mod
<ferram4>
Yeah, unfortunately we don't have a good way to do that.
<Maxsimal>
You can get some of that effect with KCT + Scrapyard + TestFlight, but not exactly what you're looking for.
<SlainteMaith>
Rokker I do like both--although I think the interface could be cleaned up considerably on the new one. It's kinda clunky and not entirely straightforward.
<xShadowx>
there is a welding mod, would be interesting to twist that into making assembles be single part + lower cost as you use em more o.O
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<APlayer>
Pap: Amazing. Thanks a lot!
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<APlayer>
I can imagine a few ways to implement such a development cost mod. If anyone is capable of turning that into code and has the time and will, I would be glad to help design it as much as I can. Having said that, I am not requesting anything.
<Pap>
APlayer: I think BARIS covers some of that?
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<ferram4>
Literally start it as pseudocode and convert it to real code later on.
<APlayer>
I am still reading the topic for that, not sure what exactly BARIS does yet.
<ferram4>
If you do that you might actually be one of the few people to make a mod doing things the sane, "correct" way. :P
<xShadowx>
code? sane way? why would we wanna do that :P
<APlayer>
ferram4: I am afraid I don't know very little of OOP, no C# (only a TINY bit of C++) and have absolutely no idea about KSP's API. I am not sure if I can at all do suitable pseudocode, but I definitely cannot make a mod from it at this point. I do hope to learn some C# on day, though.
<APlayer>
one day*
<SlainteMaith>
You're way ahead of me, APlayer. Although I know some of the nomenclature, the last serious programming I did was BASIC on a Commodore 64. Which I sucked at.
<ferram4>
If you have an idea of how it could be implemented, you probably have some level of pseudocode already, even if it's extremely vague and you'll likely get lots of feedback on that quickly, since it's something we all want to one extent or another.
<SlainteMaith>
modern nomenclature, that is.
<ferram4>
As for learning C#, it's easier and less prone to causing issues than C++. Mostly because it's dumbed down a lot. No pointer shenanigans to worry about.
<regex>
People shoot themselves in the foot before they ever get started all the time. You don't know whether you can learn it until you spend time learning it.
<APlayer>
ferram4: That would be a nice project and occasion to get into KSP modding, indeed. But, TBH, my last attempt at creating a mod completely failed (as you can see if you follow the link in my forum signature). I may try it once I get the time and will, anyway.
<xShadowx>
start with a partmodule for first mod, 99% of stuff is already done for them, add some effect in FixedUpdate() such as ... draw a random number, if 0, part.Explode(); :P
<APlayer>
Nah, pointers are alright. I got into programming starting from the low levels, so I am fine with that stuff.
<xShadowx>
randomly explody rockets mods!
<APlayer>
I am more uncomfortable with OOP (although I am growing in love with it - awesome stuff, really) and unknown nomenclature, syntax and things that you just need documentation for.
<xShadowx>
browse git for other basic mods, can learn a ton from em, copy source and tweak to see what effect said tweak had
<APlayer>
That's what causes most difficulties for me at all times.
<APlayer>
In fact, I learned PHP and JS myself thanks to an amazing amount of documentation. And that's exactly what scares me off about KSP modding, there are very few resources.
<APlayer>
I guess I would have been deep in it else.
<xShadowx>
xconsider git source to be your docs :P and ILSpy to browse ksp code
<schnobs>
a) I've just seen Valerian. A 2-hour children's birthday by Daddy Besson. If you consider watching it, I heartly recommend to do it now in a theater rather than later at home.
<ferram4>
Well, the thing to know is: what kind of docs do you want?
<schnobs>
b) what was this you guys compared to BARIS some minutes ago?
<Maxsimal>
for me often it's just getting the environment set up where I have the framework of a mod and KSP and VS all compiling together. That's a bit stumbling point for me, cause at least once you can start, you can make incremental progress
<xShadowx>
theaters full of whiny babies and fat dude with nacho :P
<APlayer>
ferram4: The sort where you search for "KSP API acces part module" and you get a page that shows a general syntax and two or three examples.
<regex>
Yeah, that's not how it works.
<regex>
You literally have to decompile the game to see how it works
<APlayer>
That's how it works with the languages I know, anyway. :D
<xShadowx>
there is some api docs in forums
<regex>
I prefer using DotPeek to dump it all to text files.
<regex>
other people like ilSpy
* xShadowx
likes ILSpy
<regex>
Then you gotta know how to read around the obfuscation but that's not too hard once you know how it looks
<xShadowx>
nice treee to browse all the classes
<xShadowx>
uh there is no obf
<regex>
xShadowx, I like text files because then I just load it into Komodo and get full text search. YMMV
<APlayer>
I believe we're off-topic with that here, though? Or is it alright?
<regex>
it's not obfuscated anymore?
<ferram4>
Topics here are... fluid.
<regex>
eh, no one's talking rockets right now
<APlayer>
Very well, then.
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<xShadowx>
regex: can text search in ilspy as well, the plus side is can search by type/method/etc
<ferram4>
It's more about people who like playing RO talking about whatever, some of it relevant, and the rest is just whatever.
<APlayer>
Well, rockets are partially code, and we're talking about the exact kind of code that is rockets. So we /are/ talking rockets.
<xShadowx>
just dont turn it into a cesspool, #kspmodders exists for that, or #kspmodding for non cesspool that accually does modding
<Rokker>
ROCKETS ARE DUM
<ferram4>
MonoBehaviour is a Unity (game engine) class, that indicates that certain functions will be called every frame. You can look up the Unity3D docs for info on that.
<Rokker>
LONG LIVE PLANES
<xShadowx>
air force are dumb, nasa prefered navy because theyre better :P
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<ferram4>
APlayer [KSPAddon] is an attribute for classes that inherit from Monobehavior that causes KSP to load them at speicfic times as an entry point.
<APlayer>
Okay guys, I thank you very much, this last hour of today was a very productive one. I am currently on vacations and I may consider to give KSP modding in the next days. I will in that case be hanging out in #kspmodding a lot.
<Rokker>
xShadowx: you can fuck off
<regex>
#NavyBrat4lyfe
<APlayer>
I need to go now, though.
<ferram4>
o/
<APlayer>
And I will be here tomorrow, just to check in about the mod recommendations you gave me. Thanks again and see you!
<regex>
\o
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<Lyneira>
Hi, can I ask a question here about fine tuning a plane in I've been working on with FAR?
<SlainteMaith>
Egads. In here on vacation? I just spent two weeks in Ireland and didn't spare a thought about KSP.
<ferram4>
You can ask. You might get an answer depending on the question.
<SlainteMaith>
Lyneira I'd say this is probably the best place to ask.
<regex>
Also, just ask the damn question, lol
<Lyneira>
I've watched some tutorials and have been getting the hang of the static analysis graphs and stability derivatives page, and for the most part the plane I've made handles pretty good, but I can't figure out how to adjust the neutral pitch of my plane despite a bunch of searching. It's always trying to pitch up to several degrees AoA
<Lyneira>
I've tried moving the main wings, horizontal tailplane and the canards forward and back, there is some effect I can see in the static graphs but it never really moves that much (except by removing the canards entirely, but still positive AoA)
<ferram4>
You need to change the angle of the tail / canard so that it produces less of a pitch up moment.
<Lyneira>
The youtube tutorial I watched briefly covers that you can adjust it with flap settings, which is useful for landing but I'd like to know what I can adjust to try and get the neutral pitch to 0
<ferram4>
Look, this is what trim is actually for, but if you want to make it work even with no control inputs, you need to change the angle of incidence of the tail / canard.
<Lyneira>
The tail/canard isn't angled, does it still produce positive lift at 0 AoA in FAR?
<ferram4>
Or the wing, tbh.
<ferram4>
No, it does not.
<SlainteMaith>
Isn't pitch somewhat dependent upon airspeed?
<SlainteMaith>
(And trim?)
<ferram4>
The steady angle of attack? Somewhat, mostly on Mach number.
<soundnfury>
ferram4: you mean FAR doesn't model effective longitudinal dihedral from wing downwash?
<Lyneira>
The neutral pitch does change a bit with speed yeah. I've had previous plane attempts that were different than this one so I wondered what design choices resulted in about 1.5 degrees of steady AoA
<ferram4>
FAR doesn't have a good way to model downwash. It needs to wait for a wing overhaul.
<Lyneira>
Hm, now that I look back at the older version they all seem to have a positive AoA
<ferram4>
Lyneira, wing placement (high wings would probably do it), perhaps fuselage shape, how the tail / canard is attached (they probably aren't perfectly at 0 angle of incidence), thrust below the CoM.
<ferram4>
You have basically no static stability. Barely anything. Any bit of pitch tendency will create a large AoA with that.
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<Lyneira>
Hm, so more stability is basically how you get the neutral pitch lower? That tutorial series I watched (which was a while ago before voxelized FAR probably) had an example plane with a negative neutral pitch though...
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<soundnfury>
Lyneira: the sign of neutral pitch comes from the sign of neutral pitch _moment_. the magnitude though is mostly controlled by the centering tendency — i.e. static stability
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<Lyneira>
soundnfury: Okay, so static stability to get it down lower (or higher), but where can I find out more about the neutral pitch moment? Is it in one of FAR's info windows?
<soundnfury>
Lyneira: pitch and stabbity derivs I think
<UmbralRaptor>
stabbity!
<soundnfury>
tbh that's the only window I normally use when designing planes
<soundnfury>
get everything green there and they're usually okay
* soundnfury
gives UmbralRaptor some bats
<UmbralRaptor>
Oh, stability.
<Lyneira>
It's green all over fortunately, responds pretty well to controls and is pretty stable in flight with some trim controls, but it feels weird to have to force it to pitch down at high speeds :)
<Lyneira>
Ah, is it Mu?
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<regex>
Man, I think I should install KSP 1.3 in Russian and play stock drunk tonight. Muscle memory should make it possible.
<Lyneira>
Looks like it, mine is positive while that youtuber's example plane has a negative Mu. Anyway thanks everyone for the advice and input
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<Bornholio>
regex don't you play drunk all the time, is this just a vodka binge :P
<regex>
lolno, I actually stopped being an alcoholic around the time I started playing KSP.
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<Lyneira>
I've taken some notes from this convo for later reference, g'night all
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<xShadowx>
ksp - the new drug :P
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<Starwaster>
'new'?
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<xShadowx>
compared to how old most drugs are
<xShadowx>
yes ksp is new
<UmbralRaptor>
Alcohol is ~100x older than spaceflight
<xShadowx>
dont forget prolly 100x older than that, man licking a toad
<xShadowx>
alcohol is manmade and by accident, plenty of chances to eat a strange berry or plant