<egg|zzz|egg> NathanKell: stock KSP nudges unready kerbals in waitforfixedupdate much like we do, which confuses things a bit :-p
<NathanKell> egg, are you sometimes *not* verbose!?
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<egg|zzz|egg> NathanKell: in issues most of the times I don't blather much, here you have the debugging process live
<egg|zzz|egg> (including the fact that I figured it out at 3 in the morning during the week x_x)
<Bornholio> what about rp-0/ro is keeping SCANsat contracts from firing. If i disable RP-0 Contracts they show up momentarily and i can grab maybe one before they disappear again.
<gazpachian> morning guys, evening yanks
<egg|zzz|egg> gazpachian: very early morning though
<gazpachian> egg: I work in the fast food business, I can't tell any more
<egg|zzz|egg> NathanKell: I haven't kept track of who's a regular here for a long time, so I don't know whether to entry^W eggmsg
<NathanKell> gazpachian is a regular :)
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<egg|zzz|egg> but have I greeted them already
<egg|zzz|egg> well, when in doubt,
<egg|zzz|egg> o/ gazpachian, welcome to ISS telemetry dumps, linguistics, modernist cooking, MOCKINGFORTRAN, marxist jokes, complaining about aerodynamics, linguistics jokes, messy PDEs, algebraic structures, 18th century realism mods, domesticated foxes, music of ancient greece, general bitterness, nietzschean bots, and occasionally Realism Overhaul
<gazpachian> egg: I accept your greeting and look forwards to further exchanges, mostly regarding domesticated foxes.
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ65t
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree cace829 NathanKell: Add a set of tags for KCT launch costs. @ppboyle that should be enough to get started with! Need to use MM to add them programatically but for now you can experiment with adding them manually. Note the MODULE name will be something like ModuleTagEngineSolid (check the cs for details in each case).
<Bornholio> yip growl swish
<NathanKell> back in a bit!
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<egg|zzz|egg> gazpachian: ah but we can apply a differential equation to the foxes (though it's an ODE, not a PDE), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka%E2%80%93Volterra_equations
<gazpachian> ah yes, but considering domesticated foxes those would follow more closely a traditional supply-demand equilibrium, no?
<leudaimon> egg|zzz|egg, there are a lot more where that one came from
<ProjectThoth> Domestic foxes are cute.
<egg|zzz|egg> leudaimon: yeah, I was mentioning Volterra-Lotka mostly because for some reason it's *always* foxes and rabbits that are taken as an eggsample :-p
<leudaimon> yeah I know
<leudaimon> also lynxes
* egg|zzz|egg pets a lynx
<Bornholio> but sugar gliders are todays cute animal
<gazpachian> lynxes of all creatures? Where in the world are they numerous enough to analyze statistically?
<ProjectThoth> Somewhere in the Mojave desert.
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<Bornholio> max has such pretty paws
<egg|zzz|egg> help now I'm trapped watching videos of large cats purring
<gazpachian> egg: you have ascended, you are beyond the reach of us mere mortals.
<gazpachian> all intelligent life converges on cat videos eventually
<egg|zzz|egg> also cheetahs meowing
<egg|zzz|egg> gazpachian: I know, I work in YouTube
<Bornholio> all unintelligent videos converg on flat earth/moonhoax
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<Starwaster> bornholio stop triggering me!
<Bornholio> no
<ProjectThoth> It's obvious, Falcon 9 is just a big inflatable tube thing.
<leudaimon> gazpachian, fur catch records from the 19th century
<leudaimon> (for the numbers for statistical analysis)
<gazpachian> yeah well, that just adds another level of predator-prey interactions
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<NathanKell> o/
<taniwha> fo/
<taniwha> er... f unintentional
<Bornholio> watch out taniwha is swinging a candy cane or something
<taniwha> heh
<taniwha> :)
<taniwha> actually, I'm running KSP under valgrind
<NathanKell> HAHAHAHAH
<taniwha> ran into a segfault in my joystick driver
<taniwha> though I suspect it's my usage of GCHandle
<Starwaster> if the earth were flat, cats would have knocked everythign offf of it by now bornholio
<taniwha> if the earth were flat, shops wouldn't be flooded with chinesium
<NathanKell> freaking Tom Friedman gets everywhere.
<NCommander> yay
<NCommander> Finally have home internet again
<NCommander> taniwha, KSP under valgrind ... you must have the patience of a saint
<taniwha> wouldn't seg (running too slow, I guess), but I /did/ find something to fix :)
<taniwha> (though I suspect select initializes fdset)
<Bornholio> cat are not that mean starwaster
<NathanKell> NCommander: if you want to do stuff but don't want to code, and science results are tiresome, wanna rep-gate some contracts? It was your idea after all :)
<Qboid> [#680] title: Current To-Do List | I have started a to-do list of things that I know need to be completed, I was going to keep this locally, but it doesn't make any sense to do that.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/680
<Bornholio> need to fix how rep work first. stupid rep, have 900 rep spend one loose >>1 gain one rep <<<1
<NathanKell> eh?
<taniwha> Bornholio: giants fall easily but climb with difficulty
<Bornholio> in stock if you use the rep spending admin you actually go negative instead of just gaining less
<NathanKell> ...
<NCommander> NathanKell, I just didn't get any reply to my first science defs
<NathanKell> Ah? Sorry! Musta missed/forgotten
<NCommander> NathanKell, https://github.com/NCommander/RealismOverhaul/commit/685b06ea0085236a7f3a0a9a95d99c51c2008572 - I did a few to see if I had the right tone and such.
<Qboid> [685b0] title: First attempt at adding science defs... by Michael Casadevall | Additions: 56 | Deletions: 2 | https://github.com/NCommander/RealismOverhaul/commit/685b06ea0085236a7f3a0a9a95d99c51c2008572
<NCommander> NathanKell, if that's about right, I'll fill out a bunch more and get a proper PR going
<NathanKell> I am, tragically, humorless (it is well known) and therefore prefer the more scientific ones. Also they impart knowledge. :) But they all look pretty good to me! :)
<NathanKell> That said, please do it in RP-0, since (I think I mentioned this?) RP-0 clobbers any prior experiment results when it runs
<NCommander> NathanKell, the only humourless ones are impossible to see in game aside from Europa. I rather do humour based one, but I didn't think it would fit in that much.
<NCommander> NathanKell, unless you know a bug that allows landing on Jupiter and Saturn
<taniwha> humor + informative is best if it can be pulled off
<NathanKell> ^
<NCommander> That's why I added the one about the moon and the stink
<NathanKell> :)
<NCommander> They did in fact discover that the lunar dust smelled up the LM
<taniwha> NCommander: :)
<NCommander> It's hard to write ones about surface samples cause we haven't been there.
<NathanKell> yeah
* NCommander needs to recheck 2001, and see where they found TMA-1
<NathanKell> Wait now I'm really confused, your repo is RealismOverhaul but your path is RP-0
<NCommander> NathanKell, I forked the wrong repo.
<NathanKell> Ah
<NCommander> NathanKell, and ... git happened
<NathanKell> Right! You had no history
<NathanKell> haha
<NCommander> I was overdue for my git screwup of the year
<NathanKell> Still Better Than Force Pushing Old Stuff (tm)
<NCommander> NathanKell, that happened at Canonical and our kernel tree
<NCommander> Ouch
<NathanKell> ....ouch
<NCommander> Wasn't me fortunately
<NathanKell> That, uh, happened to a certain project I was involved in too, but I had pulled locally so was able to restore fine
<NathanKell> scary few hours for sure
<NCommander> NathanKell, when you use git, one must hug their backups
<NathanKell> indeed
<taniwha> git is good, like most power tools :)
<NCommander> It's unfortunate that we have science disabled on Earth
<NCommander> Because we could have gotten some great stories out of it
<taniwha> NCommander: enable but set value to 0?
<NathanKell> Oh, you can override that 'you find nothing of note' if you like. But for gameplay it still needs to not give value
<taniwha> although, really, we're /still/ sciencing earth
<github> [RP-0] NCommander opened pull request #717: First attempt at adding science defs (Pap-TechTree...NC-ScienceDefs) https://git.io/vQ6bw
<NCommander> hey that worked this time
<NathanKell> \o/
<Rokker> so
<NathanKell> la
<NathanKell> ti
<taniwha> do
<Rokker> anyone know the logic behind spherical SRMs. is it simply because its lowest surface area to volume?
<NathanKell> and gives you a nice combustion chamber to boot
<NathanKell> when aerodynamics don't matter--indeed, when they militate *towards* spheres instead of away (smallest thing to fit inside the PLF)--they make perfect sense
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ6bP
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree e37949f NathanKell: Added one more. Maxismal / @ppboyle
<Rokker> aight, was just wondering
<NCommander> NathanKell, I''ll commit a bunch but I need to check if they'll show in game properly
<NathanKell> ok!
<ProjectThoth> But spherical tanks in rockets are silly.
<ProjectThoth> *liquid
<taniwha> ProjectThoth: not once in orbit
<ProjectThoth> taniwha: Well, from surface to orbit.
<taniwha> no argument there :)
<ProjectThoth> I still don't get why the N1 used spherical tanks.
<Bornholio> lowest weight to strength for pressure containers
<ProjectThoth> Sure, but then there's the issue of making it look like a rocket. :(
<NathanKell> They also probably wanted the most *reliable* structure, too
<NathanKell> when building something that big, they mightn't have trusted pill tanks
<ProjectThoth> Hmm, fair, it was an unusually large vehicle.
<Bornholio> Toroidal tanks may have made sense, but they focused on what their industry did well, like smaller motors
<NCommander> NathanKell, granted, a reliable structure doesn't help THAT much when your rocket tends to imitate a nuclear explosion.
<Bornholio> okay third try is not the charm for getting RSSVE/EVE/SCattere to give me normal sky
<Bornholio> anyonw willing to walk me through fixing it?
<NCommander> Bornholio, you should have seen what it did to my game
<NCommander> Bornholio, http://imgur.com/a/A4pld for an example
<Bornholio> i have glowing blue sky, with jagged colour at interface
<NCommander> Bornholio, my oceans turned brown. It looked like it was loading Venus textures for Earth
<NathanKell> Bornholio: I can just zip mine if you like
* NCommander is actually going to put KSP on hold for now and go to the movies
<NCommander> NathanKell, I'll try it
<Bornholio> sure
<NCommander> NathanKell, PM me the link so I don't loose it the backscroll
<NathanKell> sent
* taniwha grumbles something about the difficulty of interfacing between C# and C
<NCommander> taniwha, needs more P/Invoke
<Bornholio> thanks i'll give it a try in a few
<taniwha> NCommander: do you have experience with it?
<NCommander> taniwha, I have experience in debugging mono
<NCommander> :(
<taniwha> heh
<taniwha> well, since you're going to the movies, ping me when you get back
<NCommander> Yeah, I need to go out and do something that's not KSP
<taniwha> I'll continue seeing what I can do on my own
<NCommander> ... though maybe I should see something beside Guardains of the Galaxy II
<taniwha> also, I'll be going out with the family later today
<NCommander> bbl
<taniwha> my stuff works fine in my test harness, but causes KSP to segfault
<taniwha> I suspect something is being moved
<NathanKell> NCommander: o/
<taniwha> anywya, cya
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<taniwha> yes, Starwaster, why do you visit such?
<taniwha> masochist?
<Starwaster> masochist? that must be it... why else would I look at a page that is killing my brain cells, letter by letter....
<Starwaster> they're dying up in my skull screaming for mercy
<Bornholio> i will not take that bait
<taniwha> well, maybe not masochist. maybe feeling you somehow deserve the punishment
<Starwaster> of course, by these theories my skull must be flat as well. The appearance of roundness in the mirror is an illusion easily explained away...
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<Starwaster> trying to navigate away but I've lost too many brain cells to operate the mouse cursor... it's so complicated, all these buttonses...
<Starwaster> losing the will to live...
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<taniwha> close browser
<Bornholio> like the mouse said to the elephant "Suffer Biach"\
<Dasm> Have I broken something? I'm not getting any crewed orbit contracts with RP0
<Bornholio> Release version?
<Dasm> "VERSION" : { "BUILD" : "0", "PATCH" : 0, "MINOR" : "54", "MAJOR" : "0" }, "DOWNLOAD" : "https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/releases", "KSP_VERSION" : { "PATCH" : "2", "MINOR" : "2", "MAJOR" : "1" } }
<NathanKell|Twitch> what contracts have you completed?
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<NathanKell|Twitch> crewed karman? first orbit?
<Dasm> I've done .. orbit earth, Karman uncrwed, First artificial
<Dasm> I've done break the sound barrier crewed
<Dasm> OH! I bet I need suborbital and return uncrewed
<Bornholio> yes sir
<Starwaster> there should be a 'Debunked flat earth conspiracy'
<Dasm> That's easy, just look at google earth
<Dasm> Also, cats would have knocked everything off the edge by now
<NCommander> taniwha, I'm back
<NCommander> That went well
* NCommander got a phone call he couldn't put off and by time he was done already missed the start of the movie
<taniwha> I've disabled all my unsafe code and I'm still getting segfaults :(
<NCommander> taniwha, you're likely tripping an exception somewhere in Unity if this is KSP modding
<taniwha> it is KSP
<taniwha> and the seg /is/ in libmono and not my C code
<NCommander> taniwha, what's the segfault?
<taniwha> dunno, Player.log is not being helpful
<NCommander> taniwha, well what type of segfault is it? What is it being caused on? You should at least be able to get a partial backtrace in a debugger
<taniwha> but it happens after calling my lib a several times (some seconds of whacking hats on my stick)
<NCommander> taniwha, your lib is C# code?
<NCommander> taniwha, is it on github?
<taniwha> C code
<NathanKell|Twitch> NCommander: Fast movie? :]
<taniwha> and will be shortly
<NCommander> NathanKell|Twitch, got an SOS call from someone and had to calm them down.
<taniwha> gotta get the repo setup
<NathanKell|Twitch> NCommander: Ah...
<NCommander> taniwha, what platform, windows/linux/mac?
<taniwha> linux
<NCommander> taniwha, what's it do?
<taniwha> interface with evdev
<NCommander> taniwha, brave man
<taniwha> the idea is to replace AFBW's reliance on SDL
<NCommander> braver man
<taniwha> s/brave/insane/ :)
<NCommander> taniwha, ... what version of GCC are you using to compile?
<taniwha> 6.3.0-19
<NCommander> Hrm
<taniwha> debian
<taniwha> sid
* NCommander runs gentoo :)
* NCommander was a DD
<taniwha> dd = debian dev?
<NCommander> yeah
<taniwha> then you'd know deek?
<NCommander> And an Ubuntu Core Developer
<NCommander> taniwha, deek as in a user/dev?
<taniwha> yeah
<NCommander> sounds familiar
<taniwha> Jeff Teunissen (sp?)
<NCommander> Might have met him at debconf
<taniwha> hah, I remember the spelling
<NCommander> I probably met him at one point
<NCommander> But the specifics aren't coming to mind
<taniwha> his main focus is/was gnustep
<NCommander> taniwha, so you're getting a segfault no matter what you do?
<taniwha> yeah
<NCommander> taniwha, funny, I just did a nextstep reverse engineering project not long ago
<taniwha> he's been pretty quiet the last few years, though
<taniwha> (still there in #quakeforge)
<NCommander> taniwha, you didn't comment out the Dll input calls.
<taniwha> need them
<NCommander> Hrm
* NCommander tries to compile this
<NCommander> taniwha, what version of KSP?
<taniwha> been testing with 1.3
* NCommander doesn't have 1.3 handy
<NCommander> taniwha, will this work with no joystick?
<NCommander> taniwha, I just lobbed it into my RO file
<NCommander> and compiled ita gain 1.2
<taniwha> should, but you won't get any output
<taniwha> ie, the window will be empty
<NCommander> taniwha, well what do I need to do to trigger the crash?
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<Pap> o/
<NCommander> yo
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<Pap|AFK> o/
<taniwha> well, with no input devices, it probably won't crash
<NCommander> taniwha, it also crashed with no unsafe code :P
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<NCommander> Pap, pick one :P
<Pap> lol NCommander, I was checking for any missed tells ;)
<NCommander> taniwha, ?
<taniwha> ok, it crashed with just the call to check_device_input
* NCommander emerges GDB
<taniwha> (ie, no copying data out of C)
<NCommander> Pap, I started a branch with science defs on it
<Pap> Awesome! I will check them!
<NCommander> Pap, don't merge it yet but make sure the ones I did are right. I need to add more
<NCommander> taniwha, when/where will it crash? Right now the bar is still loading
<taniwha> space center has a debug window
<taniwha> shows axis/button states
<NCommander> ah
<Dasm> What mod adds LR-97?
<NCommander> taniwha, and it crashes after opening it a few times?
<taniwha> after some fiddling with hats, it crashes
<NCommander> Ah I see
<taniwha> however, gotta go out. bbl
<NCommander> taniwha, how can you test with unsafe code MIA though
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<taniwha> rewrote to use Marshal functions
<NCommander> ah
<Dasm> Why... isn't CKAN letting me install/download FASA
<taniwha> anyway, gotta go, sorry
<Bornholio> do you have aFASA folder already?
<Dasm> Nope
<Bornholio> what is CKAN throwing? Just not showingit?
<NCommander> taniwha be happy, it crashed here
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<Dasm> I click the checkbox but the "accept changes" button doesn't light up
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<Pap> NCommander: The Crew Reports are awesome! Some of the Surface Samples are a little out there, but fun enough for me
<NCommander> Pap, surface sample is *hard*, we've only stepped foot on one, and landed on Mars, Venus, and Titan
<Pap> I agree with you there
<Dasm> Bornholio: Ideas?
<Bornholio> I can't see a good reason
<Bornholio> poked around and it can be mod conflicts.
<Bornholio> Just it won't twll you the reason
<ProjectThoth> Are Crew Reports needed?
<Dasm> Bornholio: Is is because the current FASA release is for 1.3?
<Bornholio> v7.2 should be ok
<Bornholio> my CKAN just installed it and re-installed it today
<Bornholio> post your .ckan export
<NCommander> Pap, mercury's biomes in the existing definitions don't match RSS's
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<Pap> ferram4 has gone off the deep end
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<ferram4> Nah, I'm just having fun.
<NathanKell> ferram4 has become MEGA-ROKKER!
<Pap> :)
<NathanKell> YooSaf personified!
<ferram4> I mean, I said I wanted the requirements onerous
<Rokker> NathanKell: im pretty mega already
<ferram4> I was serious.
<Pap> NCommander: they must have changed them at some point and no one updated the science defs
<NathanKell> Look out, YooSeN!
<Rokker> what has ferram4 done
<ferram4> I'll look into coming up with a new agency to give these missions as well.
<NCommander> Pap exciting
<Pap> ferram4: I have already configured a USAF agency for my other Contract Pack if you want to use that
<ferram4> I don't want it to be USAF or whatever the soviet equivalent is/was.
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<ferram4> Just to make it simpler.
<Pap> I thought you might say that
<Bornholio> Interpol or Moon Raker or something 50's bond
<ferram4> It'll have some ominous-looking electric-eye spy sat observing the Earth. Don't worry, it'll scream NROL at least. But not obviously be anyone's agency.
<NCommander> if it wasn't for the fact my roommate was sleeping, I'd livestream testing the science defintiions
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<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ6xR
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree 7b94af6 pap1723: Fixed Earth Imaging Satellite PeA and ApA...
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<Dasm> Bornholio: I made what I think is a titan 2 GLV, with the LR91 upper stage.. and it only has 7800Dv?
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<Bornholio> sounds probably right has mercury on it?
<Bornholio> using fasa tanks?
<ProjectThoth> Vac or sea level?
<Dasm> Gemini capsule with FASA tanks
<Bornholio> check if there is a second tank that takes slightly more fuel, historically the tanks were same size but man rated one took 6 tons more fuel
<Bornholio> a full 1st stage says 156sec on wiki, using LR87-AJ-7
<Dasm> Bornholio: I think KER was just misleading me
<Dasm> Wait no.. I messed something up
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ6pa
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree c64abf5 pap1723: Reorganized Aircraft Engines, Moar New Icons...
<Dasm> I'm confused
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ6pw
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree 5fb4f26 pap1723: Updated Icons
<Pap> NCommander: make sure you finish your open X-Planes contracts before pulling from Git again
<Dasm> The Titan II GLV stuff isn't enough to reach orbit with the gemini capsule
<Pap> Dasm: yes it is, but not with the Gemini Capsule fully loaded with the RCS and Life Support, lower those amounts and you will have enought Delta-V
<Dasm> The less lithium hydroxide I have in my craft.. the heavier it is?
<Dasm> I'm having all sort of problems
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<Dasm> My LR-91 keeps getting vapor in fuel lines
<Rokker> Dasm: well then stop doing that
<Pap> You have to hot stage the LR-91
<Rokker> Pap: well, you dont have to
<Rokker> but thats how they done it irl
<Pap> true, true
<Rokker> Pap: you ever see the video of it hot staging?
<Dasm> Pap: makes sense, I was just thinking that
<born|tosleep> i don't hot stage them
<Pap> don't think so
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<born|tosleep> do have rcs ullage if needed
<Pap> Holy shit, it completely destroys the interstage
<Rokker> Pap: itll buff out
<Rokker> Pap: they showed it in the hidden figures movie as the Atlas... upper stage separation?
<Rokker> because its a shit movie as far as accuracy goes
<Pap> Rokker: accuracy is non existent in most Hollywood movies
<Pap> Silencers are far from silent
<Rokker> legalize silencers
<regex> Glorious
<Qboid> regex: egg|saturn_v|egg left a message for you in #kspacademia [08.07.2017 13:39:29]: "you said you had a save where timewarping had become eggstremely slow due to lots of vessels, could you send it to us so we can see what it looks like/profile it etc. (to see what sort of vessels we'd like to optimize for)"
<Qboid> regex: egg left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 20:48:41]: "FYI I got phl to review principia#1459, so principia#1452 is fixed at current head"
<regex> !tell egg I don't build Principia so I'll wait for the next release, but many thanks! With the new save do you want my GameData directory as well so you can load all the craft?
<Qboid> regex: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Dasm> I have so many Atlas stages in orbit ><
<github> [RealismOverhaul] NathanKell closed pull request #1693: Enable ignitions for the RD-100 (master...master) https://git.io/vQRyG
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<github> [RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vQiey
<github> RealismOverhaul/pap1723-ROupdates db59ab0 NathanKell: Merge remote-tracking branch 'origin/master' into pap1723-ROupdates
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<taniwha> back
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<Senshi> Anyone know what could cause my issue? I have RP0 (only required mods) KSP 1.22, and my planes keep "jumping" on takeoff/landing when they have sufficient speed (~50m/s), like they hit a massive speed bump. Usually they jump ~20-30m up and then tumble down&explode... Right now I have the basic X-1 using three small landing gears with this issue.
<born|tosleep> senshi there are problems with the RSS runways until 1.3 version can be released
<born|tosleep> use the green
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<Senshi> But it happens the same on the green :/
<taniwha> Senshi: are your landing gear not perpendicular to the ground?
<Senshi> the front gear is tilted slightly upwards, but that shouldn't be an issue, right?
<taniwha> it very much can be
<taniwha> physx wheel colliders do not like being at arbitrary angles to the ground
<Senshi> never has been an issue in any past KSP/RP0, though
<taniwha> (or is it just unity? anyway, they're designed for race car games, not KSP)
<taniwha> it's been an issue since 1.1
<Senshi> I'll give it a try with perfect 90° angles in all axis then, thanks!
<taniwha> there's a /little/ bit of leeway, but not much (and you need that leeway for take-off and landing)
<Dasm> Woah, how am I supposed to get all the science needed to start making Saturn Vs? I have to unlock so many nodes
<Senshi> Well, Saturn V is kind of the endgame, so obviously it's not easy :D
<Dasm> Sat V is midgame on my tech tree it looks like
<Dasm> Apollo stuff
<Dasm> Like.. early/mid
<Dasm> I guess I could start Viking and Mariner.
<Dasm> OH! And Pioneer
<taniwha> !tell NCommander it's not my code. It's Unity's joystick support. I /removed/ my mod and the seg still happens when I mess with the hats
<Qboid> taniwha: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Dasm> Can anyone tell me how this flyby finder works?
<taniwha> !tell NCommander I suspect it's because I have too many buttons
<Qboid> taniwha: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Senshi> Still no luck with the wheels, even if I get a lucky smooth takeoff:
<taniwha> hitting a bump at over 200km/h is generally bad for your health
<Senshi> There was no bump when landing ;)
<Senshi> And this is just one video of a series of landings I tried, from all different speeds and surfaces
<taniwha> there was one that threw you up into the air a bit, then you nose-dived into the ground
<taniwha> looks like you need more wing
<taniwha> you should be able to take off at around 40-50m/s
<Senshi> I could: I just waited for it to take off naturally, because the craft is slightly tilted on the ground (front wheel is a bit higher than main gear)
<Senshi> So natural lift does the takeoff for me. And it should also allow me to easily land on the main gear
<Senshi> And landing at 60m/s might be fast, but it really shouldn't cause such abrupt tumbling. It never has in the past versions.
<taniwha> Senshi: and that is inducing angle in the gear
<taniwha> thus making them bouncier than they should be
<Senshi> But how does anyone fly planes, then?
<taniwha> very careful design
<Senshi> Having a slight tilt is one of the foundations of plane design :/
<taniwha> for one, you could tilt the gear such that when sitting on the ground, even when tilted like that, the gear is perpendicular to the ground
<taniwha> for another: slight tilt up is only /one/ of the foundations
<taniwha> there's also just having the rear gear far enough forward that the tail plane has sufficient torque to lift the nose
<taniwha> like any air liner
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<Senshi> Good ideas
<Senshi> I'll test around abit
<Senshi> Guess this new must-be-perpendicular-thing is really throwing me off
<taniwha> new...?
<taniwha> it's over a year old
<taniwha> been away for a while?
<Senshi> for me, new. Haven't really played planes for a while
<taniwha> (but yes, it SUCKS)
<Senshi> Last big plane activity for me was pre 1.1
<taniwha> fair enough :)
<Senshi> And all that despite them making such a big ruckus about improving wheels :(
<taniwha> they /are/ improved, in many other areas
<taniwha> also, most of the fuss was made before the problems were discovered
<lamont> which is the preferred channel kspmodding or kspmodders?
<Qboid> lamont: egg left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 20:48:41]: "FYI I got phl to review principia#1459, so principia#1452 is fixed at current head"
<taniwha> lamont: ING
<taniwha> ers is a hive of villainy and scum the likes of which even Mos Eisley inhabitants avoid
<lamont> cool, ja
<lamont> i wound up there by accident one time
<Senshi> :D
<Senshi> that bad?
<taniwha> Senshi: that bad
<taniwha> if not worse
<lamont> 16 straight hours of working to ressurect my desktop that wouldn’t reboot this morning
<taniwha> I take it you did find the right incantations
<taniwha> (but 16h? oooooouch)
<taniwha> Senshi: if Lucas had based Mos Eisley on #kspmodders, it would have been necessary to cut it from the film
<lamont> yeah, 9am to 1am
<lamont> i guess there was some pulled pork sliders in the middle of that, but it was mostly solid yak shaving
<lamont> at least a career in IT has given me a high tolerance for pain
<taniwha> stopping for snacks hardly counts as stopping
<lamont> had to drive over to someone’s house tho
<taniwha> ok, that counts a bit then :)
<NathanKell|Twitch> lamont: jeepers, my sympathies!
<lamont> yeah, but i won =)
<lamont> i also did some reading up on some Apollo IGM papers, and its fundamentally similar enough to PEG that it should be amenable to figuring out
<taniwha> IGM?
<Qboid> taniwha: [IGM] => Iterative Guidance Mode
<Senshi> @taniwha Thanks for the tips again! A bit of redesign at the right places, and the plane works as expected now. <3
<lamont> (mostly when i was waiting for progress sliders to hang and then inevitably fail)
<taniwha> Senshi: \o/
<taniwha> Senshi: inbuilt tilt, or shifted rear gear?
<lamont> anyway that’s for another day
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<Senshi> mostly inbuilt tilt. Shifting rear gear doesn't really help that much on this stub plane, especially because CoL and CoM are inline
<taniwha> NathanKell|Twitch: I've pinged JPLRepo about optionally disabling Unity's joystick support
<taniwha> Senshi: *nod*
<taniwha> still, glad I could help
<Senshi> Now I still need to re-learn high speed TO/L for my super/hypersonic crafts with tiny wings ;)
<taniwha> trim and/or joystick
<taniwha> though if you have a good joystick, you're likely to crash unity (at least in linux):/
<taniwha> (and can't use half the buttons anyway)
<Senshi> Yeah, never really was lucky with my joysticks in KSP, so I gave up a while back
<Senshi> And from what I read here, there's still a number of issues?
<taniwha> advanced fly by wire makes joysticks usable
<taniwha> that crash might be linux specific
<taniwha> but I'm working on a new JS driver for KSP :)
<Senshi> Would that driver fix the crash issues or replace AFBW or what do you mean?
<NathanKell|Twitch> weird, I don't use AFBW and really haven't had trouble with my HOTAS
<taniwha> fixing the crash issue involved me removing permission from /dev/input/js1 so unity could not open it
<taniwha> NathanKell|Twitch: throttle calibration :)
<taniwha> (it did take me pointing it out to you for to notice the problem, though)
<NathanKell|Twitch> CH Control Manager handles most of that
<NathanKell|Twitch> Gah, reminds me, still haven't set up my new HOTAS
<taniwha> also, maybe CH Control Manager splits your stick/buttons into multiple devices
<NathanKell|Twitch> The reverse
<NathanKell|Twitch> it can (and does, for my KSP mapping) map the three individual devices to one virtual device
<taniwha> does unity not limit your axes/buttons to 20?
<taniwha> (each)
<taniwha> /dev/input/js1: driver version: 2.1.0 (20100)
<taniwha> /dev/input/js1: Too many buttons; using buttons 0 - 19 and ignoring buttons 20 - 33
<taniwha> /dev/input/js1: fd 4, buttons 20, axes 11, name Saitek Saitek X52 Flight Control System
<taniwha> that's what I get
<taniwha> and it looks like that "ignoring" is a lie
<taniwha> oh, and set up your HOTAS :)
<NathanKell|Twitch> :)
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<taniwha> ok, he's almost certain to be asleep by now
<taniwha> !tell NathanKell* remember to set up your HOTAS
<Qboid> taniwha: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<egg> !tell NathanKell,lamont On the subject of gating principia predictions/flight planning on science/career, there are things that would be interesting to do, but that requires some sort of joint design discussion, e.g., flight planning *per se* should not be gated, however the accuracy of known gravity models should be (on science about that), the accuracy of the *current state* is what should be gated on the tracking station (as
<egg> well as the computational power, i.e., the responsiveness of predictions). Entirely possible, but nontrivial & requires design
<Qboid> egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg> !tell NathanKell,lamont (continued) well as the computational power, i.e., the responsiveness of predictions). Entirely possible, but nontrivial & requires design
<Qboid> egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<egg> !tell NathanKell,lamont [continued] otoh, we would like to stress that we do not have the headcount for that, the free time of both of us already entirely goes into this, so while we'd gladly take part in the design discussion and review the code, someone else would have to actually write it (this would be a fairly extended effort)
<Qboid> egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Sigma88> 0/
<NCommander> taniwha, I get crashes with your plugin installed that I don't get otherwise
<Qboid> NCommander: taniwha left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 07:36:53]: "it's not my code. It's Unity's joystick support. I /removed/ my mod and the seg still happens when I mess with the hats"
<Qboid> NCommander: taniwha left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 07:37:23]: "I suspect it's because I have too many buttons"
<taniwha> NCommander: hmm
<taniwha> I'll keep an eye on things
<taniwha> but I /have/ verified that it's Unity itself
<NCommander> taniwha, I think it's because you're using DLopen. Mono dyamically moves the stack around and other deep magic. YHOu need to use PInvoke to dynamically call methods from a C library
<NCommander> taniwha, it's the mono runtime. I ran GDB on KSP, and saw it go tits up in libmono.so
* NCommander is wakig up
<taniwha> I looked at the asm. it's trying to do something with floats
<taniwha> but since disabling /dev/input/js1 (my stick), the crashes have stopped
<taniwha> and the dlopen is purely to preload the .so because otherwise mono won't find it
<taniwha> I /do/ use PInvoke to do the actual calling
<NCommander> taniwha oh floats.
* NCommander can't remember why that's relevant
<NCommander> Just woke up
<taniwha> not sure, other than it might be the guts of Unity's joystick driver
* NCommander debates doing a live stream
<taniwha> anyway, no crashes since killing unity's access to my stick
<taniwha> crash within seconds when I re-enable it
<taniwha> (seconds of banging on the hat)
* NCommander is debating livestreaming
<egg> taniwha: NCommander: ping?
<taniwha> pong
<egg> talk of floating-point happened?
<NCommander> egg, do you have a hilight when anyone brings up floating point, or is it just like a superpower :P
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<egg> I do have such a highlight
<egg> as the /topic of kspmodders says, <Majiir> egg is pretty much just a chickenfetus until you start talking about floating point
<egg> NCommander: talking of rounding will also summon me
<egg> I should add highlights for numerical integration, RK methods, etc.
<taniwha> NCommander: checking with gdb without my mod installed to check the crash looks to be in the same place
<Pap|Sleep> NCommander: stop debating and do it!
<taniwha> hmm, odd, no crash now
<taniwha> oop, spoke too soon :)
<taniwha> exact same location
<taniwha> just took more hammering
<NCommander> Pap|Sleep, well I need to eat before I do it
<NCommander> I just woke up
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<NCommander> Fuck it
<NCommander> I'm going to get a new GPU today
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<born|tosleep> GPU's = september
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<NCommander> The fact is my old 550 Ti is just dated
<Bornholio> unfortunately the next big roadmap bump for nvidia is next aug. sept. last years pascal supercomputer chip series development wont hit chips for their cards till sept this year, and volta probably sept 2018
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<Dasm> Hello!
<NCommander> Cool
<NCommander> my new GPU is ready for pickup
<Dasm> What'd you get?
<Dasm> I got a 6600k a few months back and like it a lot
<ProjectThoth> Still waiting for graphics card prices to drop. :/
<Dasm> ProjectThoth: Just get a 1080 :P its the same price at the 1070 right now
<ProjectThoth> Dasm: Stupid Bitcoin rush! :(
<Dasm> Apparently the 1070 is more efficient than the 1080
<Dasm> We goin to Venus! http://i.imgur.com/B965MqM.png
<ProjectThoth> I just wanna simulate SSTOs.
<Dasm> Isn't that really really hard in RSS/RO?
<ProjectThoth> Well... expendable ones.
<ProjectThoth> I mean, on paper, it looks like balloon tanks and high-performance kerelox (or methalox) would be able to make it.
<Dasm> Wait.. the whole point of SSTO is to be reusable, no?
<ProjectThoth> Not if you're thinking about space in the right way.
<Bornholio> no
<ProjectThoth> Make space the destination, not the layover. Refuel in orbit for landing. Suddenly makes SSTOs easy.
<ProjectThoth> Probably don't even have to use expendable SHLVs for that, just use a boosted SSTO of some kind (pop-up first stage or just SRBs).
<Bornholio> SSTO means what to you, it means a hydrolox super efficient balloon tank to me
<ProjectThoth> Just means "single stage to orbit" to me.
<Bornholio> mostly it gets used when the peron meant to say SSTO aircraft
<ProjectThoth> Oh, pfft, those are only good in stock.
<ProjectThoth> I guess VTVL SSTO, if you want to be specific?
<Bornholio> .shrug good luck in RO
<NCommander> Dasm, Gtx 1050 Pi
<Dasm> How...
<NCommander> *Ti
<Dasm> Oops, I read it as CPU
<NCommander> Dasm, I really need to upgrade the mainboard, it's a 2011 Sandy Bridge
<NCommander> so a bit dated
<NCommander> So going witha budget PCI 3 Xpress Card seems the right way to go until I can afford to upgrade
<Dasm> How.. how do I put a nose cone on the FASA Agena thing?
<NCommander> actually, no, correction, mine is a IvyBridge
<NCommander> One of the earlist ones
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<taniwha> NCommander: in case you're interested, I've done a fair bit of work on AdvancedInput
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<Theysen> hello rocket people
<Bornholio> hello fellow rocketeer
<Dasm> OH!
<Bornholio> get them to work for you dasm
<Dasm> For some reason FASA doesn't come with the nose fairing for the agena?
<Bornholio> don't think so. angry aligator is unpopular
<Dasm> There are nodes for it on the thing though
<Bornholio> you can usethose and a proc nosecone on the docking port
<Bornholio> i never use them
<Dasm> Nope
<Dasm> They don't do the thing
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<Rounan> Hey, has anyone seen a bug where right-clicking on procedural avionics does not bring up the menu, and instead prevents all right-clicks on parts from generating menus until you leave/re-enter the VAB?
<Rounan> Ah, it's probably related to having loaded this craft from a more-advanced save where the avionics had been set to configs I don't have unlocked yet. Just got the menu to come up, and the configuration was "not recognized" or some such
<Bornholio> hav not, are you using master?
<Rounan> CKAN version, ya.
<Bornholio> master has some updates over CKAN release.
<NCommander> Yay
<NCommander> Got me new NVIDIA card
* NCommander will be back
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<NCommander> Well that was quick and painless
<NCommander> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: NVIDIA Corporation GP107 [GeForce GTX 1050 Ti] (rev a1)
* NCommander deletes KSP settings
<NCommander> Why does KSP have so much trouble w/ multimonitor :/
<Bornholio> ncommander you use the RSSVE stuff from NK yest?
<Bornholio> yet
<Rounan> NCommander: Are you on Linux? KSP win64 does OK on my 3-monitor setup, though every so often I resume from standby and it's showing 1/4 of its area on the wrong screen.
<Bornholio> KSP run in windowed mode fine...
<Rounan> Oh yeah, I run borderless windowed. seems to be the best way.
<NCommander> Rounan, I'm using borderless windowed but sometimes it decided to forget it's setting and span over both monitors
<NCommander> Bornholio, I did, it worked, but unplayable on the old GPU
<NCommander> This is promising
<NCommander> No framerate lag on the menus
<Bornholio> lol, I had problems since i run dx11 mode, but using rhew RC3 RSSVE and the blue ball patch brought it back to pretty
<NCommander> Bornholio, the blue ball bug amuses me
<Rounan> Where can I get the updated RSSVE stuff? I tried installing it yesterday, but it turned my sky green.
<NCommander> Bornholio, I'm bringing out my mach 4 plane
<NCommander> Bar is yellow
<Bornholio> yeah its borked somewhat, RSSVE itself is fine, something about either scattere or EVE doesnot play well
<NCommander> Hah
<NCommander> Once I got off the runway, I've got a green FPS
<NCommander> so pretty
<Rounan> Frankly I'm just impressed you can take off the 1.2 runway
<Rounan> The cliffs destroy all my planes
<NCommander> Rounan, I can take off the 1.2 Tier 1 runway
<NCommander> I've even landed on it
<Rounan> wow. what's your strategy? Well-timed bunny hops?
<NCommander> I'm still getting some lag, but this is likely CPU bound issues
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<NCommander> so pretty
<ProjectThoth> Nice!
<NCommander> Would folks be interested in me streaming now?
* NCommander needs to grab OBS
<egg> wheee principia \o/
<NCommander> egg, I think that's what's causing some CPU stuttering but it's not bad at all
* NCommander is probably the first person ever who got GPU bound on KSP ^_^
<egg> NCommander: it shouldn't cause much of anything unless at high warp or in map view
<Pap|Sleep> NCommander: stream FTW!
<Theysen> Bornholio, whats that RSSVE by NK youre talking about=
<NCommander> Theysen, it's a copy of NathanKell|AWAY's RSSVE settings which actually work
<NCommander> Pap|Sleep, I will once you wake up and I can get OBS compiled. I'm just debating if I want to stream on Twitch or mixer
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<Theysen> NCommander, where ?
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQiBd
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree 727567c pap1723: Consolidated Engine_Configs Tech Patches...
<NCommander> Theysen, Microsoft's livestream site. I used to work for them before they were bought out and still called Beam
<Theysen> NCommander, what? I meant the rssve settings?
<NCommander> Theysen, https://www.dropbox.com/s/e5vtgeu10o4ixx3/GameData.rar?dl=1 - NathanKell|AWAY's KSP GameData folder
<Bornholio> let me clean it up and post you a zip
<NCommander> Got this is pretty much silky smooth
<Theysen> what's the difference in those settings?
<Bornholio> do you do dx11 or stck?
<NCommander> I'm probably at running .9 seconds in game to 1 second real life
<NCommander> Bornholio, OpenGL
<Bornholio> theysen do you run dx11?
<Theysen> No why?
<Bornholio> k
<NCommander> Bornholio, remember, I'm on Linux
<Pap> Wait, should I be running OpenGL to allow my game to have decent FPS with RSSVE?
<Bornholio> I get good results from dx11, but it needs a patch
<NCommander> I needed the patch for OpenLG
<Theysen> No, there is no advantage on win to put it into any other mode since we are64bi
* NCommander is just marvelling watching scatterer work well
<Pap> k
<Bornholio> except using 1.2G less memory
<Theysen> if youre low on ram then yes
<NCommander> Bornholio, KSP is consuming 10.5GiB
<Theysen> not worth the glitches though imho
<NCommander> huh
<NCommander> I can probably upgrade to the 8192x8192 textures
<Bornholio> no glitches
<lamontzzzzz> cool mechjeb + principia seems decently stable
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<NCommander> Pap, OBS is emerging
<NCommander> As soon as it's done compiling, I'll get setup for streaming
<egg> lamont: yeah, that's hardly a new thing
<lamont> new for me
<Qboid> lamont: egg left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 10:41:05]: "On the subject of gating principia predictions/flight planning on science/career, there are things that would be interesting to do, but that requires some sort of joint design discussion, e.g., flight planning *per se* should not be gated, however the accuracy of known gravity models should be (on science about that), the accuracy of th
<Qboid> e *current state* is what should be gated on the tracking station (as"
<Qboid> lamont: egg left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 10:41:30]: "(continued) well as the computational power, i.e., the responsiveness of predictions). Entirely possible, but nontrivial & requires design"
<Qboid> lamont: egg left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 10:59:38]: "[continued] otoh, we would like to stress that we do not have the headcount for that, the free time of both of us already entirely goes into this, so while we'd gladly take part in the design discussion and review the code, someone else would have to actually write it (this would be a fairly extended effort)"
<egg> lamont: anything that uses Orbit and doesn't rely on their being constant will work as well as Kepler should (and no more :-p)
<egg> meanwhile I have no idea how to deal with principia#1460
<Qboid> [#1460] title: Procedural SRB missing nozzle causes physics issues. | Using Principia Cauchy, KSP 1.2.2, Real Solar System, Realism Overhaul.... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1460
<lamont> hmmm
* egg isn't sure what lamont is hmmming at, there was a bit of a wall of text here
<NCommander> I also need to work out the math to figure out how much fuel I would need to do a supersonic TATL flight
<lamont> yeah, my approach is to not worry so much about the “game” aspects
<lamont> that always drove me a bit nuts about kOS
<egg> yeah, largely same here, which is why we've ignored the eggsistence of career for now
<egg> lamont: (fyi that message was cced to NK, Qboid doesn't show that)
<lamont> also the parts you have to add for mechjeb and stuff annoy me, i always add mechjeb to all modules and unlock all the mechjeb features right from the start
<NCommander> Goddamn it
* NCommander has to build Qt
<egg> lamont: but NK was complaining about that, so these are my thoughts; it's possible to have principia career integration, now where is my team of half a dozen full-time engineers :-p
<lamont> yeah
<egg> lamont: I was looking at the contrib graph of principia, we're *slightly* nuts
<lamont> i’m not so worried about having unrealistically good guidance for a 1950s-era soviet space program
<lamont> i’d be happy with unrealistically good guidance for ksp at all
<NCommander> so JFK to LHR is 5555km great circle
<egg> lamont: https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/graphs/contributors?from=2017-01-01&to=2017-07-09&type=c <<< I'm not sure how we managed to touch basically all the codebase this year already
<Rounan> Pap, if I want to give your new tree a try, Is there anything I need to do other than clone the repo and copy/overwrite into GameData?
<lamont> oh i forgot to add reaction wheels to this silly thing i’m testing…
<NCommander> and at mach 3, I go 3704 kilometers per hour
<Pap> Rounan: don't copy/overwrite, be sure to completely delete the RealismOverhaul and RP-0 folders from your GameData file before installing
<NCommander> So I would need approximately two hours of fuel to hold supersonic flight over the atlantic
<Pap> Rounan: you need to get the RO branch and RP0 branch
<NCommander> A bit more if I wanted to do MCO-LHR
<NCommander> That's *actually doable
<NCommander> Difficult, but doable
<Pap> Well, this will be possibly the last mission of my career, I am 80k in the Red and need to successfully Fly By and Impact the Moon or we are sunk
<Theysen> RIP :D
<Theysen> How did you screw it up so badly? :P
<NCommander> Pap, F5/F9
<NCommander> Pap, or take the bailout grant
<Pap> lol NCommander
<Theysen> nono, admin building is no go in RP-0 :D
<Maxsimal> Ugh I dunno why but my imgur links don't seem to work on my new forum post - it keeps saying 'there's no image at this location' even though there is
<Pap> And my core engine didn't ignite, Agathorned!
<NCommander> Pap, RIP space program
<lamont> did Agathorn just eat a whole space program?
<lamont> (for breakfast even, at least here...)
<Bornholio> the PapRoscosmos Design has been summoned before kruschev and fired
<Rounan> Pap: do I need different RP-0 & RO branches than CKAN would install?
<Pap> For sure
<NCommander> If I limited myself to Mach 2
<Pap> Rounan: YES, you need the Dev versino
<Pap> *version
<NCommander> I could rather easily build a TATL supersonic aircraft
<Rounan> Pap: OK, thanks.
<NCommander> TPAC is harder
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<Pap> Rounan: let me link you to the correct ones
<NCommander> Pap, any recommendations what I do on the stream
<Bornholio> theysen rounan this is the RSSVE install gamedata that NK lent out last night for me to use https://www.dropbox.com/s/aybioris5ez1gx1/NK%20RSSVE%20INSTALL.zip?dl=1 (RSSVE/EVE/SCAT/DOE)
<Theysen> Bornholio, ah you had issues installing?
<Pap> NCommander: nope, just play your career
<NCommander> Pap, that would be doing my first re-entrying
<Bornholio> CKAN gave me a really borked install, so did hand
<Pap> Perfect
<NCommander> Pap, and suborbital flights
<NCommander> Pap, at the rate things are compiling, I should be good to go in 30-45 minutes
<Rounan> Bornholio: Thanks! I'll give it a go.
<Rounan> Pap: Process wise, can I: 1)CKAN install all 2)delete RO&RP-0 folders 3)copy in those 2 links ?
<Pap> Exactly Rounan
<Rounan> *doesn't want to deal with manually installing all dependencies
<Theysen> ^ that works just fine :)
<xShadowx> i didnt wanna deal with installing 700 mods, but i did it, cuz ksp is worth it ;)
* Theysen still doesn't get the reason behind it
* xShadowx wanted a complete game
<Theysen> So you have just EVERY mod in an install even if you just play RO?
<xShadowx> theres about 2500 mods in ksp, so no, <1/3
<NCommander> Theysen, personally, I don't think the hamburger mod would fit in RO :)
<Theysen> y not
* xShadowx changed food resource to bacon
<Rounan> I dunno, you guys are pretty ambitious. I'm sure you'd find a way to calculate an appropriate ISP for a mustard squeeze bottle.
<NCommander> Ketchup doesn't have same ISP as a rocket engine in vacuum
<NCommander> ninja'd
<Rounan> :)
<xShadowx> lolz
<NCommander> Honestly, the one thing I might change in RO for personal play is ion engines and take the KSP route on them
<NCommander> Even with the thrust/time warp mod, I don't think that's going to work with Principia, and ion acceleration is ... special
<NCommander> OBS is compiled
<xShadowx> so dont timewarp
<Bornholio> Rounan what pressure and temperature is the mustard at? Ideal 100:1 nozzle?
<NCommander> xShadowx, you do realize how low the thrust is on RL ion engines right?
<Rounan> Yeah, ions have a big gameplay/reality tension. not timewarping is not an option
<xShadowx> NCommander: turn on engine, go afk, next
<Rounan> Bornholio: STP, flow is seriously underexpanded. But the ISP is delicious.
* xShadowx took that option
<lamont> we should be able to put constant thrust, ideal pitch trajectory craft on rails while they execute long burns
<NCommander> xShadowx, it would take several hundred days
<NCommander> xShadowx, of burning
<NCommander> RL
<xShadowx> lamont: reverse orbital decay mod :P
<lamont> no
<lamont> all the PEG/IGM code basically has the math
<xShadowx> it slows a show on rails o.O
<xShadowx> s/show/ship
<Qboid> xShadowx meant to say: it slows a ship on rails o.O
<xShadowx> but then you need control to turn engine on/off too
<xShadowx> if you fire engine in orbit, you would need multiple passes
<NCommander> Well
<NCommander> Here goes nothing
NCommander is now known as NC|Twitch
<egg> !tell Starwaster, you'll want to re-open Starwaster/ProceduralParts#3
<Qboid> egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid> [#3] title: SRB nozzle placed wrong when combined with RSS and Principia | You get a nozzle position that looks like this: http://imgur.com/zE2miKa | https://github.com/Starwaster/ProceduralParts/issues/3
<egg> !tell regex so it turns out your was Proc SRB's, not mine, I have redirected as needed; you'll want to track Starwaster/ProceduralParts#3 for the continuation of this saga
<Qboid> egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid> [#3] title: SRB nozzle placed wrong when combined with RSS and Principia | You get a nozzle position that looks like this: http://imgur.com/zE2miKa | https://github.com/Starwaster/ProceduralParts/issues/3
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<KevinStarwaster> oh dear this can't be right can it?
<KevinStarwaster> public static float partUtilizationDefault = 86;
<NC|Twitch> egg, you should come join us on Twitch :)
<egg> NC|Twitch: I'm going to be eating though :-p
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<egg> KevinStarwaster: um, I have !tells for you, but they're to the non-Kevin nick :-p
KevinStarwaster is now known as Starwaster
<Starwaster> SHOW ME THE TELLLLSSSS
<Qboid> Starwaster: egg left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 17:39:49]: "you'll want to re-open Starwaster/ProceduralParts#3"
<egg> :D
<ferram4> That was underwhelming.
<Starwaster> ikr?
<Qboid> Starwaster: [ikr] => I know, right
<ferram4> I expected an IRC filling list
<egg> ferram4: yeah, but NK will have a more interesting !tell list :-p
<egg> iirc 3 from me
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<Rounan> NC|Twitch: Laika
<NC|Twitch> Rounan, thanks
<ferram4> !tell NathanKell* You were right, the A-9 is hilariously expensive. I'll stick with the A-4 for now, thanks.
<Qboid> ferram4: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Bornholio> pap when i return to KSC the upgraded facilities sometimes disappear, the data stays correct, just the model in space center is wrong (Have levl 5 R&D and Level 6 pad) both looke like level 1's
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* NathanKell ducks from qboid
<Qboid> NathanKell: taniwha left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 09:39:15]: "remember to set up your HOTAS"
<Qboid> NathanKell: egg left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 10:41:05]: "On the subject of gating principia predictions/flight planning on science/career, there are things that would be interesting to do, but that requires some sort of joint design discussion, e.g., flight planning *per se* should not be gated, however the accuracy of known gravity models should be (on science about that), the accuracy of th
<Qboid> e *current state* is what should be gated on the tracking station (as"
<Qboid> NathanKell: egg left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 10:41:30]: "(continued) well as the computational power, i.e., the responsiveness of predictions). Entirely possible, but nontrivial & requires design"
<Qboid> NathanKell: egg left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 10:59:38]: "[continued] otoh, we would like to stress that we do not have the headcount for that, the free time of both of us already entirely goes into this, so while we'd gladly take part in the design discussion and review the code, someone else would have to actually write it (this would be a fairly extended effort)"
<Qboid> NathanKell: ferram4 left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 18:51:09]: "You were right, the A-9 is hilariously expensive. I'll stick with the A-4 for now, thanks."
<Bornholio> pap also starts KCT logspam with build rates and switching to launchpad level 5 and destroyed =false...
<NathanKell> Starwaster: Utilization default of 86 is correct, 86% is about right for non-common-bulkhead tanks in a cylindrical space
<Sarbian> NathanKell / lamont I just found the MJ dV stats bugs and it s actually not related to crossfeed at all :)
<ferram4> Well, for a cylindrical space the size of the Titan II first stage. The upper has lower utilization.
<Sarbian> It seems my magic number for "tank is empty" does not work well with RO
<NathanKell> Sarbian: HUH!
<Sarbian> so it was just not staging the boosters
<NathanKell> ferram4: Correct.
<NathanKell> Sarbian: Hah
<NathanKell> Sarbian: Ah, the other issue is the ignoreForIsp stuff
<Sarbian> It only took 4H to find that...
<NathanKell> >.>
<NathanKell> :]
<Sarbian> I think I handle ignoreForIsp already but it you have an example let me look into it while I am still in my code
<NathanKell> You ignore it entirely, which is wrong :]
<soundnfury> o/
<Sarbian> You mean I don't use the propellant ?
<NathanKell> You should only ignore it if there's not a lot on the craft and there's an intake or generator--if there is no way of creating it, you should recompute Isp to include it, and use it up
<ferram4> Alright, take 2 of the A-4-based orbiter. The last one failed to orbit because the ullage motors for the Aerobee upper with unbalanced, so it coned all over the place and didn't get an above ground Pe
<Sarbian> Hum, so for something like a Xeon engine that runs on battery only ?
<NathanKell> I mostly find it with that very LV that you saw and lamont talked about--RD-107/8 engines use HTP to power the turbopumps
<NathanKell> MJ thinks that HTP is never used, so the dry massses are way higher than they really become
<NathanKell> so the dV values are much lower
<NathanKell> Same with e.g. the V-2/A-4 and anything else that uses HTP (or something else) for turbopump powering
<soundnfury> NathanKell: now that I think about that, I don't think konrad can handle that either
<Sarbian> ok. I am not sure I have a easy way to figure out if something is generated or not so would it do If I ignore only Ec ?
<NathanKell> EC and intakeAir
<soundnfury> probably because I never use RD-107/8, and A-4 is too early in the game to need konrad guidance
<NathanKell> and probably FSCoolant
<NathanKell> ugh, just stick them in a config node and let modders worry
<Sarbian> In my freeResources list I have IntakeAir IntakeLqd IntakeAtm (and anythging with a density of 0). I ll use that and add a node somewhere to load
<NathanKell> Ah awesome :)
<NathanKell> thanks so much! That'll make everything (esp including PEG) better!
<NathanKell> And my vehicle design >.>
<Sarbian> Wait until I coded it ;)
<NathanKell> :D :D
<Starwaster> NathanKell 86% is 0.86 not 86
<Starwaster> I just noticed that an OPT spaceplane I made was GROSSLY overweight to the point tha its landing gear broke
<Starwaster> so I look at its weight and it's like 8000 tons
<NathanKell> Starwaster: Wait I'm confused then
<Starwaster> even though it's hdrolox
<Bornholio> the capacitors do weird things also "StoredCharge"
<Starwaster> so I look at at its configs in the save file (the craft file)
<Starwaster> and the utilization is set to 86
<Sarbian> hum, actually the staging problem is related to imperfect fuel ratio in tanks. I should improve my logic there
<Sarbian> fuelTank.long Kerosene is 0.00543717058261596
<Sarbian> fuelTank.long LqdOxygen is 0
<Starwaster> which increased its volume 86 times
<Starwaster> so that some parts had millions of liters
<NathanKell> Sarbian: Yes, the LOX boils off slightly
<NathanKell> Starwaster: Ah, odd
<Starwaster> I think usually, we manually set a utilization for thse things so the default doesnt kick in
<Sarbian> ah, that explains the mass change I saw and why it works fine in the editor :)
<Starwaster> if there is nothing set? default = 86 = 86x volume
<Starwaster> = Starwaster has a bunch of craft files he has to go fix manually because they're all corrupted now
<NathanKell> Starwaster: Oh, so it's a craft file problem
<Starwaster> well it is NOW
<NathanKell> yes, at some point a year or two ago utilization changed from 0-1 to 0-100
<NathanKell> so old craft files that stored utilization the old way will be borked
<Starwaster> no
<NathanKell> new craft/new parts will be fine
<Starwaster> no you arent LISTENING
<NathanKell> I am listening.
<Starwaster> this is a newly constructed craft
<NathanKell> THen something is screwy for those configs if they had hard-coded utilization. Because proc parts certainly *don't*, and I build from them all the time.
<Starwaster> so you think a value of 86 is normal
<NathanKell> Because utilization changed from 0-1 to 0-100, yes.
<NathanKell> and other places.
<NathanKell> aw crud
<NathanKell> that's tank
<NathanKell> 1sec
<NathanKell> that's the right one
<NathanKell> Note its range.
<egg> !wpn NathanKell
* Qboid gives NathanKell a polonium Norgg
<egg> NathanKell: also, update on the proc SRB bug, it's not mine, happens without principia
<NathanKell> j'unaccuse
<Starwaster> well somewhere it's NOT dividing by utilization it's multipling it or I wouldn't have 86x volume
<egg> NathanKell: also that !tell was CCed to lamont, unfortunately Qboid does not show CCs, see backlog for discussion with lamont
<Starwaster> but you know what, screw it
<Starwaster> whatever
<Starwaster> I give up
<NathanKell> Look, I don't disbelieve you here in the least, I just don't know where it is either.
<NathanKell> Because RF *was* converted to 100x, and it doesn't bug out when I build stuff
<NathanKell> Which is why I figured it's the part configs
<Bornholio> !tell pap confirming my new KCT/CBK bug with disapearing R&D and launch pad levels and log spam. My repeatable condition is load game, they show correct, no logspam. go to Tracking Station and return, models revert to level 1's and logspam begins https://www.dropbox.com/s/0vl5ntatz06z4ia/output_log.txt?dl=1
<Qboid> Bornholio: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Rounan> NCommander: When you take a drag off the e-cig, every damned time, I think "wow, they improved the coldgas RCS sound effects!"
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<lamont> sarbian: nice, that makes perfect sense
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<NCommander> That was fun
<Rounan> Thanks NC, for keeping me company while I have to work. :)
<NCommander> Rounan, hope I was enteraining
<Rounan> You played KSP so I didn't have to
<NCommander> I may do some non-KSC launches next
<Rounan> Do you need to get build rates at non-KSC venues to make that happen?
<Rounan> or do you build at one rate and roll out to any pad?
<Bornholio> all seperate
<NCommander> what he said
<NCommander> But I can launch my sounding rockets from there
<NCommander> and upgrading pads is cheap
<Rounan> hmmmm..... doesn't seem reasonable to actually, like, do that then?
<Rounan> I mean, equatorial orbits are nice, sure.
<NCommander> Rounan, upgrading the launch pad is very cheap and the only thing you actually need to upgrade
<Bornholio> vab if you want multiple build channels
<Rounan> right, but aren't you either spending 2x as much on VAB build rate, or only building tiny things at alternate pads?
<NCommander> I do wish there was a way to transport rockets Bornholio
<NCommander> Rounan, it starts at 0.1BP. If your patient :)
<Bornholio> launch it land it then refuel it :P
<Rounan> hahaha, I guess that works Bornholio
<NCommander> Bornholio, what happens if you have something on the pad, switch sites and then recover active vessel?
<Maxsimal> yeah, if you switch KSC's with the tracking station, you can recover to a different KSC.
<NCommander> or even switch to it
<NCommander> Huh
<Maxsimal> It works just fine
<NCommander> That's actually a nifty idea
<NCommander> Maxsimal, I thought the KSC would disappear and reappear
<Bornholio> that works but need good guessing skills to land in the right spot
<Rounan> Does KCT still have an option to re-use instead of recover? I remember a Duna challenge ~2years ago that used that...
<Maxsimal> Did it some in my speed run, mostly to get new biomes easilly.
<Bornholio> you can recover from flight mode
<NCommander> I might launch a few from Kodiak
<Rounan> do you then not need to re-build those parts?
* NCommander lived in Alaska
<Maxsimal> All you do is this. Launch the vessel. Don't actually start flying it. Switch to tracking station. Switch to your desired KSC. Fly that vessel. Hit KCT button and 'recover active vessel'. it will be recovered to the new site.
<NCommander> Maxsimal, at unrealistically fast shipping and handling times I suspect
<Maxsimal> Ehh, not highly unrealistic. Put it in a B-50 and fly it at 450mph or so to the new site
<Bornholio> way to get a few extra biomes early just start builds at several places
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<Theysen_> Oh Maxsimal I saw your thread about the Moon and 1953 with Pap's new tech tree. Is that actually even remotely possible to have the tech unlocked with all the new nodes and development time?
<NCommander> Maxsimal, you obviously haven't been to Alaska :)
<NCommander> Maxsimal, I love the fact that we have a North Korean launch site. I MIGHT have to do North Korean Space Program when I get tired of this file.
<Maxsimal> Theysen_ : yeah I expect I will make it without too much more difficulty
<Theysen_> Maxsimal, is this on hard?
<Theysen_> I took all the possible science points to unlock and just orbital rocketry took me into 1954 iirc just because KCT
<Maxsimal> Moderate
<Theysen_> Ah!
<Theysen_> gotcha :)
<Theysen_> love it so far
<Theysen_> good narrative
<Maxsimal> I went with moderate because that's what NK and leudaimon did for their racing to space competetive mode
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<Pap> Bornholio: can you please report that to KCT Github as an issue? Are you using the newest KCT from Spacedock?
<Qboid> Pap: Bornholio left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 19:47:41]: "confirming my new KCT/CBK bug with disapearing R&D and launch pad levels and log spam. My repeatable condition is load game, they show correct, no logspam. go to Tracking Station and return, models revert to level 1's and logspam begins https://www.dropbox.com/s/0vl5ntatz06z4ia/output_log.txt?dl=1"
<Sarbian> NathanKell|AFK: There you go. Built for 1.2.2 : https://www.dropbox.com/s/qs3urbwcf56hkl2/MechJeb2.dll?dl=0
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<Sarbian> I ll work on adding the RSS branch on jenkins later this week
<Sarbian> too tired today
<soundnfury> Pap: the Earth Imaging contract should really warn you that you have to get within 50km (and thus that you have to be under 190km when you overfly it)
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<soundnfury> in fact, can I just say, 50km is a _ridiculously_ tight requirement, especially for a contract that pays Not all that much.
<Pap> That's a good point soundnfury, I will increase that by quite a bit
<NCommander> Pap, the threshold or the payout?
<Pap> I think the payout by a little, the threshold by quite a bit
<soundnfury> Pap: I did also wonder if it should be horizontalDistance rather than distance
<Pap> soundnfury: it might be, that might be the better way to do it, I have never used horizontalDistance before, so it would take some testing
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<soundnfury> yeah I'm just gonna mark that contract complete in this game and not do it again
<soundnfury> because even when I flew directly over it at 172km alt it still didn't register
<NCommander> Is there a Gemini pod in RO out of the box?
<NCommander> Or do I need a mod
<Pap> no NCommander, there is a 2 person TKS pod, that is it
<NCommander> TKS?
<Pap> Soviet TKS/VA pod
<soundnfury> NCommander: I use FASA for Gemini
<NCommander> Guess that works
<NCommander> What else is in FASA?
<Pap> NCommander: there is also the K2 Command Pod that only really adds a 2 person Command Pod that is based on Gemini
<Pap> FASA has hundreds of parts
<Pap> Basically the entire US space program through Apollo
<NCommander> Pap, I doubt it's well balanced for RO :)
<NCommander> (FASA)
<Pap> NCommander: it might be the best balanced Mod Pack for RO, it was one of the originals and a lot of time has been put into it
<NCommander> ah, it looks like was balacned for stock based on my brief googling
<egg> Starwaster: do note that this is not affecting vessels with psrbs from launch, only once you switch back to them in orbit (e.g. repro instructions on principia#1460)
<Qboid> [#1460] title: Procedural SRB missing nozzle causes physics issues. | Using Principia Cauchy, KSP 1.2.2, Real Solar System, Realism Overhaul.... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1460
<egg> Starwaster: also I think shit-tonne is the standard spelling if you mean the metric unit :-)
<NCommander> egg, no, that's a metric shitton, defined in standard units as the average amount of interment a human generates in a solar year.
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<NathanKell> o/
<NathanKell> Sarbian: Awesome! <3
<NathanKell> lamont: Can you merge that in and run a peg build?
<egg> !wpn NathanKell
* Qboid gives NathanKell an affine cathedral trihexaflexagon
<NathanKell> Sarbian: I assume the changes are on git?
<NCommander> If I do more KSP today, it will be sandbox and hyperedit checking the science defs and then asking if Pap wants them.
<Pap> o/ NathanKell
<NathanKell> NCommander, Bornholio, whomever else was talking about shipping rockets: the 'build' times in KCT are actually *integration* time. We don't simulate manufacturing time at all.
<NathanKell> so by definition they're what you have to pay at any site.
<NCommander> NathanKell, actually, I thought KCT *did* do that, because in stock configs, building the same parts over and over reduce the time to build.
<NathanKell> yes, KCT thinks of building as building
<NathanKell> we don't :]
<Pap> NathanKell: I was going to make the change with the Probe Cores today (the ECC and Surveyor switch), but I want to do it in a way that will ruin the least amount of saves. Any ideas?
<NCommander> NathanKell, arguably, the change landing sites and ship thy rocket trick shouldn't work then :)
<egg> NathanKell: argh, adding integration as a ping word may have been a mistake
<NathanKell> It shouldn't, I agree
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<NCommander> something something something integration, physics, and n-body, something something something
<NCommander> ^- egg summoning ritual
<NathanKell> integrate ALL the eggs!
<Pap> Need to add a float and a double in there NCommander
<NathanKell> Pap: It's gonna ruin saves regardless, since one way or the other the probe core will change size.
* egg rounds up NCommander, NathanKell, and Pap
<NCommander> Real men simulate physics with integer math :)
<egg> (towards infinity)
<NathanKell> However, if we want to do it in a way that won't *destroy* craft, just make them look funny visually, we can.
<NathanKell> stabbity stabbity floating point
<NCommander> NathanKell, new part names, then keep the old parts with the models switched. Old craft will keep what they had, new will get the new one
<NathanKell> Pap: We know we require Ven's. So we just swap the MODEL nodes between the parts.
<NathanKell> NCommander: Ah, that works even better, yes.
<egg> NathanKell: stabbity pings AeroRaptor, not me
<NathanKell> so do you
<NCommander> NathanKell, maybe we can get to the point the 1.2->1.3 upgrade won't break saves :)
<egg> NathanKell: congratulations, now you have summoned a diapsid as well as an egg!
<NathanKell> We can't with the tree.
<AeroRaptor> only when I'm at a raptop
<AeroRaptor> *laptop
<NathanKell> that's gonna break saves no matter how you slice it.
<NCommander> NathanKell, Pap tree is 1.2, we're upgrading to 1.3 at some point I assume.
<Pap> NCommander: that is a good idea
<NathanKell> So we might as well do all the savebreaky things
* egg slices a tree
<egg> planks appear
<NathanKell> Well, yeah, but we also need to do launch costs.
<NathanKell> AH
<NathanKell> Maxsimal
<Pap> NCommander: I mean the new part names
<NathanKell> have you played with them yet, Maxsimal ?
<NCommander> Pap, I do a lot of backcomp work. If you're determined/insane, you can actually keep the same persistant.sfs across multiple versions of mods
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Launchcosts? I thought we were waiting for magico to create something for a per-part multiplayer for rollouts.
<NathanKell> No, I created the tags for you already.
<NathanKell> We can and should start trying things now.
<NathanKell> Later we'll get more control of course, but we have enough now
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: I didn't know that. But the tags can only be read per-part for build costs, not launch costs, yes?
<NathanKell> The flow is this:
<NathanKell> 1. We tag all parts with the appropriate tags
<NathanKell> 2. In the preset, we write multipliers for each tag.
<NathanKell> 3. Those multipliers are applied to the BP cost of the craft, thus changing integration time.
<NathanKell> 4. We also write rollout cost (in money) to reflect BP cost.
<NathanKell> So the harder to integrate, the more expensive the launch
<NathanKell> Obviously magico's changes will give us more control, i.e. independence between integration time and launch cost
<NathanKell> but we're fine, for now, with them being linearly related, IMO
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* egg stirs
<lamont> NathanKell where’s the patch?
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Yeah that should be fine, just checked and rollout can look at BP's. I'll have to look at how BP's are calculated. And see what your tags are.
<lamont> i see the dll but i can’t merge a dll
<Bornholio> nathankell did you notice the bug i posted at pap
<NathanKell> Bornholio: yes
<Bornholio> are you near those levels with your TTT run?
<NathanKell> I saw that it freaked, not what your levels were.
<NathanKell> What are your levels?
<Bornholio> 5R&D 6 Pad
<NathanKell> Not there yet
<Bornholio> [KCT] Switching to LaunchPad: LaunchPad lvl: 5 destroyed? False is correct base level 1 = o ?
<Bornholio> 0?
<NathanKell> yes, the first tier is counted in KCT as 0.
<Bornholio> wanted independent confirmation before i post an issue back on KCT
<NathanKell> yeah, not gonna be there for a good bit :\
<NathanKell> unless I cheat that is
<Bornholio> Maxsimal are you up to higher pad or R&D levels?
<Maxsimal> Bornholio: On my speed run? My pad is level 3 now, my R&D is still level 1.
<NCommander> The pizza was tasty
<Bornholio> k
<NCommander> Very tasty
<Maxsimal> Bornholio: Pad upgrade times are a lot shorter
<NathanKell> lamont: oh crap
<NathanKell> lamont: Isp isn't being recomputed
<lamont> oh crap?
<NathanKell> The ignoreforIsp change
<NathanKell> Hmm. Not certain.
<NathanKell> Yeah. If it detects an ignoreForIsp resource it needs to recompute Isp for the engine involved.
<NathanKell> And I think whereas before it underestimated dV, now it will over-estimate
<lamont> does HTP basically “vent” so it doesn’t produce thrust but it is burn-down mass?
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Do you recall where magico wrote how to set a multiplier per part tag?
<NCommander> lamont, part of me makes me feeling you shoul dbe working at SpaceX or NASA for your guidance work :)
<lamont> missed my calling
<NathanKell> Maxsimal: it's in the preset in RP-0
<lamont> i’m getting a bit old for a career switch
<NCommander> lamont, this is why you need call waiting
<NathanKell> lamont: Correct.
<NathanKell> lamont: that is why you need to recompute Isp
<NathanKell> lamont: new Isp is old Isp * (old mass sum) / (new mass sum, including HTP)
<NCommander> What always amazes me about KSP is the fact that it makes orbital mechanics relatively simple to understand
<NathanKell> I think.
<NCommander> well, right up until egg shows up
<NathanKell> :D
<Rounan> NCommander: https://xkcd.com/1356/
<NCommander> I already know what xkcd that is
<Rounan> ;)
<NCommander> KSP == as effective as Apollo at making people care about space with a fraction of the cost
<NathanKell> lamont: Yeah. That line needs to be fixed.
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: The current preset for RP0 doesn't do anything with per part tags, as fair as I can tell. I know I saw something where he said you how define a multiplier, but it's not on his wiki for KCT
<lamont> yeah all of a sudden i wished i’d paid more attention in that graduate level calculus of variations course i took 20 years ago…
<NathanKell> Maxsimal: It's in his presets
<NCommander> I do think one of my goals for this RP-0 file is to do an RTW flight
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: That was it, thank you!
<NCommander> Using the relocate KSP trick. Launch, move the space center, and then land
<NathanKell> so in Module_variables you'd have, say, 'ModuleTagHumanRated = 5' and then 'ModuleTagToxic = 2' and stuff like that
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<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Yup! Ok, I'll put together something. I'll have to mod all the contract rewards too - well, basically every cost. I guess I should make my own branch. I haven't used github much before though.
<Ramh5> quick question : Communotron HG-55 dish says it is enough for Mars with careful planning, can I put 2 or dish don't add up like omni
<Bornholio> don't add dishes
<NathanKell> Maxsimal: Just change your GameParameter in your save so fund rewards are 1000%
<NathanKell> (or 10x whatever they are for you now)
<NCommander> I also realize what mod I didn't install
<Bornholio> you can communicate if earth and mars are near eachother not in opposition when you arrive
* NCommander needs chatterer
<NathanKell> then change Fund Loss to 5x what it is, to up building costs. Then in the KCT preset, lower building BP value by 5x.
<NathanKell> that should do it.
<NathanKell> lamont: Ok, I think you need this:
<NathanKell> float totalpropellantSumRatioTimesDensity = engine.propellants.Slinq().Select(prop => prop.ratio * MuUtils.ResourceDensity(prop.id)).Sum();
<NathanKell> propellantSumRatioTimesDensity = engine.propellants.Slinq().Where(prop => !prop.ignoreForIsp).Select(prop => prop.ratio * MuUtils.ResourceDensity(prop.id)).Sum();
<NathanKell> float ratio = propellantSumRatioTimesDensity / totalpropellantSumRatioTimesDensity;
<NathanKell> {
<NathanKell> foreach(key k in curve)
<NathanKell> k.value *= ratio;
<NathanKell> k.in *= ratio;
<NathanKell> k.out *= ratio;
<NathanKell> }
<NathanKell> urg
<NathanKell> note pseudocodey for loop
<NathanKell> lamont: to replace line 618 of the flow simulation
<lamont> so
<lamont> are you sure you need to change that though?
<ferram4> NathanKell, can you think of any type of contract that should come before a V-2 style ballistic missile test contract?
<ferram4> Also, I might need to come up with a "warhead" resource or something for these.
<lamont> because isp is computed based on the mass ratio and DV is based on thrust, and the thrust is fixed, but this code should increase the mass, so therefore MJ should report a lower ISP?
<Dasm> !!!! I jettesoned my gemini cap and launch escape tower and then I hit the cap
<NathanKell> ferram4: Sounding rocket contracts.
<NathanKell> ferram4: The early Aggregates were just that, for tests
<ferram4> SOunding rocket Med?
<NathanKell> low
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: That works. Ok I'll get to work on it tomorrow. I'm off to bed in an hour.
<NCommander> ferram4, you'd be looking at an "impact on target", downrage distance, and velocity (to evade SAM)
<ferram4> NCommander, this is just the first one, so no more than 250 km range, and hit within 5km, no other reqs.
<ferram4> A V-2 is more than capable.
<lamont> NathanKell: try it and validate its wrong
<NCommander> ferram4, what I'd probably do is spawn in a ship, and then measure distance from it
<NathanKell> lamont: Huh? No, Isp can't be computed.
<NathanKell> Isp is taken from the curve.
<NCommander> ferram4, that gives you something to target, then you can measure via the rendevous system
<NathanKell> lamont: where is that curve used?
<ferram4> ...I can use the waypoint generator in Contract Configurator. :P
<NCommander> :P
<NCommander> ferram4, I'd love to have a giant bullseye part though :)
<NathanKell> lamont: So maybe you're right and it goes from flow, not Isp.
<ferram4> NCommander, easier to have a giant bullseye icon for the map and navball. :P
<NCommander> But it just impacted off the sides ;)
<lamont> oh yeah you just found that…
<NathanKell> lamont: Weird. It's integrating instead of doing the rocket equation. Well, that would answer why Isp doesn't matter.
<NathanKell> ok, so whatevs, looks fine then
<NathanKell> <<< machjab is weird >>>
<lamont> yeah looks like mechjeb runs the rocket equation 5 different times when it should only need to do it once but whatevs, yeah...
<NathanKell> Ok, cools. Gonna try.
<Maxsimal> Might be simpler to do that than try to calculate the rocket equation given multiple different engines with different fuel amounts
<lamont> yeah just try it
<NathanKell> oh, and lamont, I thought of another usability feature (I really should just up and code them, but oh well). A 'don't start PEG until' timer. So instead of having to manually click 'disable' and then 'enable' (and having to *remember to* :D ) you can have a pitch program that ends and then still not start PEG until a defined time.
<NathanKell> Because PEG keeps convering on my boosters :]
<NathanKell> Well, with the now-fixed MJ it may not
<NathanKell> (or won't matter so much if it does)
<NathanKell> but anyway, a thought :)
<lamont> heh
<lamont> yeah just set it to 2 or 3 stage and forget about it…
<lamont> you just don’t like it ‘cuz its not historical...
<NathanKell> fair cop
<Dasm> What's the word I'm looking for? Its on the tip of my tongue- Its like "fudge factor" but a more proper word for it, as in how tight the limitations are
<lamont> there’s still the stupid bug that throws index errors and requires you to recalculate. there’s also the peg-stages-always-reset-to-one bug.
<NathanKell> Margin
<soundnfury> Dasm: slop?
<Dasm> NathanKell: Thanks!
<soundnfury> or what NK said :P
<lamont> i think mostly i just want to fix those two things and then ship it off to sarbian to merge
<NathanKell> yep :)
<Dasm> How tight were the margins for orbit on the Titan Gemini?
<lamont> “shipping is a feature"
<NathanKell> Dasm: Indescribably tight
<Dasm> That's why I'm having issues then :P
<NathanKell> Dasm: Are you going to the right orbit?
<egg> NathanKell: iirc there's a good reason why Sarbian integrates, other approaches ended up being special-case spaghetti
<egg> but ask him directly
<Dasm> NathanKell: 250km?
<NathanKell> ah, fair enough. Vegetable rockets and all
<NathanKell> Dasm: Hahahahah
<NathanKell> Dasm: 150.
<Dasm> Oh poop
<NathanKell> Dasm: 148 x 280, IIRC.
<egg> NathanKell: hah @ vegetable rockets, never heard them described that way :-p
<NathanKell> going to 250 the gravity losses will kill you
<egg> (but then again you brought us tank butt, so,)
<NathanKell> I have the best words.
<egg> GROANE.
<NathanKell> Dasm: Ok, lemme try a Titan II GLV just for kicks
<Dasm> NathanKell: What about the long duration missions?
<Dasm> Don't they have to be high?
<NathanKell> No
<NathanKell> you have 200+ m/s for station keeping
<Pap> NathanKell: you'll be happy to know that your Mass to Avioincs ratios that yo came up with barely change the current values, you've got some mad skills
<NathanKell> :)
<NathanKell> to be fair I based them off the current values because I thought I was right the first time :P
<NathanKell> just going from memory, so...
<Pap> Based on all the numbers that I have been running, you were pretty dead on both times!
<NathanKell> :)
<NathanKell> I was very happy to find out R-7's guidance was very nearly precisely 800kg, for example
<egg> NathanKell: also, on "tank butt", I think you'll like this conversation https://logs.tmsp.io/kspacademia/2017-03-11#1489268519-1489268924;
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<Dasm> NathanKell: Apparently the AJ-7 works a lot better than the AJ-3 :P
<NathanKell> oh
<NathanKell> yeah
<NathanKell> Dasm still want me to demonstrate ascent?
<Dasm> Sure, use the AJ-5s though
<Bornholio> what controls the reflections on the agena and other FASA stuff
<NathanKell> Texture Replacer IIRC
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<leudaimon> btw, you mentioned textures... my procedural tanks bottoms are transparent... any idea what could be causing that?
<leudaimon> (just during flight)
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<ProjectThoth> Why are you lookin' there, ya perv?
<ProjectThoth> leudaimon: Buy "just in flight," does that include being out on the pad?
<leudaimon> not sure, I only notice that after first stage sep... I don't usually look below the rocket before the gravity turn
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<ProjectThoth> Custom texture?
<leudaimon> yep, but as they are the same ones NK has been using, I thought it shouldn't be the cause of that
<Ramh5> I used to be able to press backspace to focuse view on my vessel, when did it go :(
<Bornholio> I really like SmartASS adv->sun-Right-0deg Bam! solarpanels max.
<ProjectThoth> leudaimon: Across multiple rockets, or just this one?
<leudaimon> every rocket, for a fairly long time now... I got used to it, but it's weird
<leudaimon> it happens only in the parts of the proc tanks where the texture does not apply
<ProjectThoth> I was gonna guess something engine-related, but hmm.
<ProjectThoth> Oh! Does it work with other textures?
<leudaimon> the texture I choose for the tank does not matter...
<Bornholio> maybe repair texture replacer?
<NathanKell|Twitch> leudaimon: OpenGL?
<leudaimon> yep NathanKell|Twitch
<ProjectThoth> Yeah, Bornholio beat me to it.
<leudaimon> is there any issue with OpenGL right now? I'm on linux, I guess that's my only option, right?
<NathanKell|Twitch> lamont are you watching? NaNs
<NathanKell|Twitch> leudaimon I asked because NCommander, also on linux, also had that issue
<Bornholio> nans i see them too
<leudaimon> hmm, well I'll live with it then... too lazy to look deeper into it. Might try to reinstall texture replacer just in case
<NathanKell|Twitch> lamontttttt MJ PEG is throwing badly, and I can't stage
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<NathanKell|Twitch> lamont nm about not being able to stage
<NathanKell|Twitch> I figured it out
<NathanKell|Twitch> the NaNs and excpetions are worrying however
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<Dasm> This is pretty http://i.imgur.com/9JKtCNl.png
<NCommander> huh?
<lamont> sorry not watching NathanKell|Twitch and yeah, the NaNs + exceptions just need to get hunted down and killed
<NCommander> bbl
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<Dasm> What is MMH NTO?
<ProjectThoth> Monomethylhydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide.
<ProjectThoth> (well, technically dinitrogen tetroxide, N2O4).
<NathanKell|Twitch> lamont: It was with a FASA Gemini/Titan II GLV, so easy enough to repro
<NathanKell|Twitch> something about that gives PEG the willies
<NathanKell|Twitch> only the first stage NaN'd tho, PEG worked for the second stage fine
<lamont> dod you forget to reset to the stage count from 1 to 2?
<lamont> *did
<NathanKell|Twitch> I thought that was 'num guided stages'
<NathanKell|Twitch> not 'num total stages'
<NathanKell|Twitch> So I left it at 1 for Titan
<NathanKell|Twitch> lamont: Also I found out what Titan II GLV's pitch program was \o/
<lamont> oh yeah, what you were seeing was “normal”
<lamont> i’ve got PEG running the whole time, so it was trying to take your booster stage all the way to your insertion point as a single stage
<lamont> ohhhhh
<NathanKell|Twitch> Aha
<lamont> yeah that was bad
<lamont> new bug
<NathanKell|Twitch> Program was in 3 steps: 0.7 degrees until 88s, 0.5 degrees until 118, and then 0.23 degrees until burnout
<NathanKell|Twitch> oh?
<lamont> i wonder if that’s the fuel flow simulation and not PEG
<lamont> and you’re hotstaging
<NathanKell|Twitch> !tell Pap* I thought I moved the RD-58 config back a notch, but it looks like either it got reverted, or I did it to the config and not the PARTUPGRADE
<Qboid> NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell|Twitch> I got the NaNs on Molniya, too
<NathanKell|Twitch> I think it's the stage count thing
<lamont> the NaNs in PEG are entirely normal given what you told it
<NathanKell|Twitch> ok, cool
<NathanKell|Twitch> thought you were pondering that re: the flow changes
<NathanKell|Twitch> got confused
<NathanKell|Twitch> alsom on terminal guidance
<NathanKell|Twitch> it doesn't seem to happen for me
<NathanKell|Twitch> if you're watching, you'll see
<NathanKell|Twitch> OF COURSE it works this time
<NathanKell|Twitch> >.>
<NathanKell|Twitch> did you fix a bug with it recently?
<lamont> yeah DirtyCacheForStage is throwing during the staging event
<egg|zzz|egg> !wpn lamont
* Qboid gives lamont an achromatic compactification
* egg|zzz|egg can't zzzleep
<NathanKell|Twitch> !wpn egg|zzz|egg
* Qboid gives egg|zzz|egg a biologically active pink ?
<lamont> yeah its the performance improvements i did for ferrams potatoputer
<lamont> caches are horrible things
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<lamont> its NRE’ing as well and not throwing index errors, that’s odd
<NathanKell|Twitch> huh
<NathanKell|Twitch> uninitialized array?
<lamont> anyway that is “known class of bug”
<lamont> or “known problematic area in the codebase?”
<lamont> something like that
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<Dasm> If I'm going to Jupiter.. would it be best to swing by Venus first?
<ProjectThoth> Dasm: I dunno, do you mind stopping over and picking up a sandwich?
<Dasm> ><
<UmbralRaptor> For saving ΔV like Galileo?
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<Dasm> Yes
<Dasm> I only have early stuff, I'm doing Mariner stuff
<Pap> NathanKell|Twitch: So the RD-58 should be one node later?
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [09.07.2017 23:22:06]: "I thought I moved the RD-58 config back a notch, but it looks like either it got reverted, or I did it to the config and not the PARTUPGRADE"
<NathanKell|Twitch> Pap, Yeah, one node after 11D33M
<Pap> Yeah, i thought we made that change as well
<egg|zzz|egg> !wpn UmbralRaptor
* Qboid gives UmbralRaptor a projective clowder
<egg|zzz|egg> UmbralRaptor: kozai
<UmbralRaptor> AΑΑAA
<egg|zzz|egg> UmbralRaptor: andouilettes?
<UmbralRaptor> Some of those are Greek letters.
<egg|zzz|egg> ah