<Ramh5>
I have an atlas inspired 3.5T to LEO LV and now I want to make an upgraded one with more engines on each stage, should I make something like a 6T to LEO or be more ambitious like 10T
<Ramh5>
nothing specific I just liked the 3 engines at start and I dump them at 5g
<Ramh5>
believe it is more like atlas V? I have one RL10 second stage to orbit, the first stage sustainer is LR 105 and booster LR89
<Bornholio>
can't see adding that much with just one extra engine the RL will be the problem if it can't give engough TWR with the new payload
NathanKell|AWAY is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<Ramh5>
hi
<Ramh5>
Bornholio: I was thinking 2 or 3 RL10 second stage and as required for the first
<NathanKell>
where are you trying to put the payload?
<Ramh5>
I am designing my second launch vehicle and was wondering if 6T to orbit would be a nice upgrade from the 3.5 I have presently or should I got for more like 8 or 10T
<Ultra>
I am playing a serious RP-0 and was more worried about the 500 days ill lose as i can just give myself the 150,000 back its the days i value
<Ultra>
nevermind im an idiot
<Ramh5>
Ultra: I believe you can tweak the KCT settings to make it instantaneous
<Bornholio>
you could change it then change back yes
<Ramh5>
I did that to get myself an RP0 fast start, I was not interested in the early grind of sounding rockets
<Ramh5>
anyway I made a reddit post for my new LV following the comment you gave me http://imgur.com/a/N9qlO
<Ramh5>
fun fun
Ramh5 is now known as Ramh5|Netflixwithwife
Ultra has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
regex has joined #RO
blowfish has quit [Quit: Leaving]
leudaimon has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Hohman has joined #RO
Ramh5|Netflixwithwife has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
<Pap>
Quiet night
* xShadowx
moves in next to Pap and plays loud music
* UmbralRaptor
installs an NK-12 engine next to Pap.
* xShadowx
hits the test button while UmbralRaptor is still installing it
* UmbralRaptor
is gibbed.
Hypergolic_Skunk has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
<Pap>
LOUD night tonight
<regex>
Pap, do we have a big update incoming?
<regex>
For tech tree etc?
<Pap>
regex: yes we do
<Pap>
I would guess it is a few weeks out still though
<regex>
Cool
<regex>
Is it going to be save breaking? I read something about that last night...
<Pap>
Yes it will be, that is part of the reason that we are grouping it all together, but it shouldn't be save breaking if you are playing the dev versions now
<regex>
Oh, cool. Alright, then I'll launch some rockets then
<Pap>
How's your budgets config coming?
Hohman has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 54.0.1/20170628075643]]
<regex>
Working pretty well. I can see a case for a banking function now that I'm into it. Rep loss is about 3% per year right now, still trying to figure out what's comfortable.
<regex>
You still have to do some of the milestone contracts but I'm fine with that
<regex>
Also looking to add facilities costs but without max rep all the time it would be tough to maintain maximum NASA payroll.
<regex>
Assuming payroll is based on facility level.
<regex>
Also, I have no idea how to figure that out so...
<Pap>
That still sounds fun to me. Might want to try that out at some point down the road
<regex>
Sure, yeah, let me know and I'll make a build available.
<regex>
I'd like to get the banking figured out first but I'm not especially keen on writing GUI code at the moment.
darsie has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
regex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Guest6721 has joined #RO
TM1978m has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/v7UvM
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7UgV
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7Ug1
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 09fa668 pap1723: SSTU Apollo Overhaul...
<Pap>
If you play with SSTU, I highly recommend the new commits
<Maxsimal>
Cool - those are going to master now?
<Maxsimal>
pap: I added two new tag columns to the sheet in advance of NK delivering some tags (or maybe he did it, I have not been watching RP0 commits. I hope to get a lot, if not all, of that thing tagged this weekend.
<Maxsimal>
!tell pap Also could you look at this 'should tag' column? It's not correct in a lot of instances (looking at line 657 right now, for instance, it should be false but it's true)
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
o/ Maxsimal
<Qboid>
Pap: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [21.07.2017 12:25:23]: "Also could you look at this 'should tag' column? It's not correct in a lot of instances (looking at line 657 right now, for instance, it should be false but it's true)"
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7UwA
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Sorry went afk. I thought it was going to be true when the mod wasn't 'engine_configs' and when RP0conf was 'true'. But if there are some cases where I should tag things beyond that, let me know.
<Bornholio>
taking "Fundamentals of attitude control and electrical power classes for spacecraft 8CU's for 20 bucks nice.
<Pap>
Ah, yes, I set it as true when the mod wasn't engine_configs and when orphans was blank, i'll add the third condition
<Pap>
Alright Maxsimal, that should be fixed
<Pap>
Bornholio: what school offers that? Auditing the class, or taking it for credits?
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Ok. So orphaned parts shouldn't be tagged either then? Good to know.
<Bornholio>
online engineering class service called SunCam, they are good for my license CE;s
<Maxsimal>
Bornholio: Sounds like you should look into our procedural avionics then :P
<Bornholio>
you want electronic warfare systems on your probe, awesome, they should be able to jam those alien scum.
<Bornholio>
I wonder how much a 15kW traveling wave oscillator tube weighed in 1951...
<taniwha>
not much more than in does in 2017, I imagine
<Maxsimal>
Bornholio: I thought your attitude control stuff might teach you more about what's involved in guidance
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
hey o/ Pap / Bornholio .. do you guys play with Principa?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
s/Principa/Principia
<Qboid>
Hypergolic_Skunk meant to say: hey o/ Pap / Bornholio .. do you guys play with Principia?
<taniwha>
Bornholio: I seem to remember microwave stuff still using tubes (1992, though)
<Bornholio>
I do not right now, have a limited experience with it before.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
just wondering, because in Scott Manley's latest video, he says 'you need Principia'
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
for RO
<Bornholio>
Taniwha, most of my stuff on BUFF's was BWOTs thankfully they got solid state replacements for most in late '90s and now they are all SS reducing the cost of maintenance by more than half. I spent over a million on them in one days exercise...
<taniwha>
ah, ok, so my memory was correct, just dated
<taniwha>
I don't imagine it's much, lighter, though
<taniwha>
for one thing, most of the mass would be wave guides
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Was he saying it you "need" it because it is better, or did he make it seem like it was a requirement?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
man I love Scott Manley, but my fingernails are turning inside-out when he pronounces Principia 'Prinkippia'
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: according to NathanKell, that is the correct pronunciation because of the type of Latin used
<Bornholio>
fun fact for you then, the electronic warfare gear on a B52 weighs more than the maximum amount of bombs it can carry (20t)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: checking
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
'you're also gonna need Principia' - that's what he says
<taniwha>
Bornholio: they'd need multiple frequencies which means multiple oscillators and multiple waveguides
<Pap>
I wonder if he is starting a new playthrough and was giving the people his playlist?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: Caesar is dead. PrinZipia 4 lyf :P
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: are you on the Discord server?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I am
<Pap>
Thanks
<Bornholio>
pap can you place the proc heatshield in a later lunar EDL node, it tempts me sorely
<Pap>
Bornholio: the SSTU one?
<Bornholio>
nope, don't have SSTU yet, think proc parts
<Bornholio>
man now i have to figure that out. i'll patch it myself :P
<Pap>
THAT ONE ISN'T EVEN CONFIGGED! Is it in the start node?
<Bornholio>
yes
<Pap>
ah, let me fix that
Wetmelon has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: one thing... I like those early comsat contracts, but why does the comsatbus value have to change every couple of days?
<Bornholio>
managment, they suck
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
if I want to build a rocket for that, and wait with the acceptance of the contract till just before vehicle completion, it bites me in the ass every time :P
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: they are randomized, CC regenerates the contracts repeatedly, it simulates the fact that upper management cannot make up their minds
<Pap>
that last part is made up
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
grrr! :D
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
we should overthrow them
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: There should be plenty of time for you to accept, build a LV and launch
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yes. and then Testflight kicks in :)
<Bornholio>
sales VP sold a 4000 channels TV transmitter in 1958!
<Pap>
Bornholio: is the Heat Shield listed as non-RP0?
<Bornholio>
yes
<Bornholio>
I know....
<Bornholio>
proceduralHeatshield
<Bornholio>
I can find it myself
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
which of you guys is already good/proficient with the new PEG Ascent Guidance in Mechjeb?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
are you following any kind of internal arithmetic when setting the values 'degrees per second' and 'duration' for the first stage turn?
<Bornholio>
It's been failing me lately :( but i time it out through my 1st stage and target ~20deg and asjust to what PEG moves towards for a second run
<Bornholio>
thats mean, removing it entirely! .sad
<Pap>
It has never belonged and wasn't in the old tree, it cannot be configured properly
<Bornholio>
well at least i have tweakscale
<Pap>
Bornholio: aren't there HS for every conceivable size at 1m increments?
<Bornholio>
as it is now they need too be slightly oversized or you cook the payload
rsparkyc has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
> every conceivable size
<Pap>
o/ Hotlanta rsparkyc
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
> 1m increments
<rsparkyc>
o/ Pap
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: leudaimon|Work left a message for you in #RO [20.07.2017 21:08:39]: "I don't think it's a matter of one or the other, it's just that given the mass/cost trade-off is not currently working, maybe removing it by now would make things easier. Then once we have a streamlined system without it, it might be easier to implement the trade-offs later"
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
thou shalt burn.
* Pap
can only conceive of things in one meter sizes
* Pap
says despite barely knowing WTF a meter is
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
walk three feet and add a couple of thumbs held sideways :p
rsparkyc is now known as rsparkyc|away
<Pap>
That is the tricky thing for me, the little bit extra. In Freedom Units we have a yard which is 3 feet exactly, I just lump a meter into being the same size
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
it's only a matter of time before imperial units die forever, so all is well in my world
<taniwha>
Hypergolic_Skunk: won't happen
Senshi has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
taniwha: look at the world map of how many countries use imperial, then remind yourself which units SpaceX use, and which units will be dominant in space once it will be colonized.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
mark my words.
<taniwha>
every country uses imperial, whether they know it or not
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I believe that it will eventually die, but it won't be in our lifetimes
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
true
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
unless Elon Musk sets Rejuvenation as one of his goals
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ok, less sci-fi for me
<Pap>
Is there any interest in adding a "Part is from X Mod" to the end of the descriptions of the parts?
ferram4 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<Bornholio>
he's building his hyperloop, so he will time travel :P
ferram4 has joined #RO
<Bornholio>
YES!
<Pap>
Excellent, I already added the feature, I thought it would be useful
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: did you add the circumference to some part? such as the Agena Avionics ?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I really like that
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: That was not me, that was done by others prior to my arrival
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh, fair enough
<Pap>
If someone is willing to do some work and measure some parts, I can easily add that where applicable
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I think I can do that, if someone gives me a list of parts that need it
<Bornholio>
list, all the round ones...
<Pap>
:)
<Maxsimal>
why would you need the circumference? Diameter seems to be the useful one
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh pfeewww. then I won't have to measure the Early Controllable Core :p
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Maxsimal: me stupid. that's what I meant.
<Bornholio>
supposed to say , aren't they the same, so Max can go into a teaching moment.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I imagine the difference is more than philosophical if you're using it to lure women into your bed
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
'oh did you understand diameter? I meant circumference, stupid'
<Pap>
That's why you people all use cm, 20 sounds a lot bigger than 8 inches
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
depends on where you grew up
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
if I went ahead and said to a US-American woman... 'two decimeters are waiting for you' I'm sure she's burst into laughter
<taniwha>
who uses decimeters?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
only the chosen ones
<taniwha>
hardly
<taniwha>
I've lived in 4 metric using countries
<taniwha>
not one uses decimeters
<Pap>
Some women would like to be decimetered
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D
<Bornholio>
lol
<Bornholio>
girth?
<Pap>
lol
<Maxsimal>
Hypergolic_Skunk: No worries
<Maxsimal>
Also, regardless of what measurement you used, going up to a US-American woman and saying 'X length of genital' are waiting for you will result in laughter. Next time measure the thickness of your wallet :P
<taniwha>
Maxsimal: I think that goes for any country's women
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
taniwha said what I thought
<taniwha>
now, taking her out to an expensive restaurant without flinching might get you somewhere
<Pap>
If we go to some form of universal income, how are ugly guys ever going to get laid?
<Pap>
These are the important questions that people who push for that type of reform need to answer
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
there will be restricted-AI lov----- maid-bots to comfort us
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
very life-like
<Pap>
Robot sex slaves, nice
<Maxsimal>
Realistically, guys will just find some other method to prove themselves to women, and women will find some other criteria to judge them on. How many instagram followers you have, most likely.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
reddit upvotes
<Pap>
Maxsimal: apparently that is a very important part of high school culture, acceptance and "coolness" already
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: you must have done something right :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ehm.. what am I doing wrong if my LR105 says 'insufficient resources to ignite' ? already restarted the sim, removed/readded the fuel...
<Bornholio>
power
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
good point. maybe I should equip *any* of my stages with batteries
<Bornholio>
"aspen 20, I show you at 1,982 knots on the ground."
<Maxsimal>
If you have avioncs you should have some power somewhere...
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
neither the Thor- nor the Thor/Delta-units have any power
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so I'll have to add batteries :)
<Maxsimal>
that's odd
Ramh5 has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
Senshi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Guest6721 has quit [Ping timeout: 186 seconds]
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
starting to fall in love with PEG
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so nice to be able to configure it to use every last bit of fuel
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
or close to, at least
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
to keep things realistic :p
Hohman has joined #RO
<Maxsimal>
Btw, how do you use Peg? I've been left out of the loop. Is there a special MechJeb build? Or a setting someplace?
Senshi has joined #RO
<Bornholio>
there is a RSS MJ version branch now, lamonts Dev build is not integrated into that release
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
it requires launches without coasting (which I've been doing until now). having some good results with the second stage having about 6.5-7.5km/s. you need to play with the Booster Pitch Rate and Booster Pitch End setting
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
also it's much easier to play around with the Apoapsis than the Periapsis
<Bornholio>
the important factor beyond having enough dV to get to space, is having long enough burn time to go straight to orbit
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
jesus. I'm doing a Molnyia orbit contract, and I forgot to change the guidance to stop after stage 2. all is well, AJ10 is burning happily. which means I could automate GTO insertion in the future D:
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
one-button-GTO. nice.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
got the Argument of Periapsis wrong though, so .. uhm.. yeah :D
<Bornholio>
GTO from Kourou might be ok but not sure how you would make it kick a proper dogleg
<Maxsimal>
Heheh -sounds more involved than just using regular MJ, or at least I'm more used to using regular MJ ascent
<Bornholio>
in some ways it is, but once you use it right its one button to orbit
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
i typically do inclination changes for geostationary orbit at Apoapsis, even though doing some of the inclination work at Periapsis would be a little more efficient
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Maxsimal: it is, but now I don't have to manually circularize, and the second stage doesn't need RCS anymore. I just gave it a couple of sepratrons (or whatever they're called) and let the ullage be done automatically
<Maxsimal>
I don't use RCS for the second stage either, I just have it stage as soon as the 1st stage burns out (assuming my 1st stage lets go of the 2nd high enough that it maintains ullage till the motor finishes starting)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
too much lottery for me :p
<Maxsimal>
Ehh, I never have trouble with that after I get past using A4's for my first stage :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so do you stage shortly before burnout, or just after?
TM1978m has joined #RO
Hohman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Hohman has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 54.0.1/20170628075643]]
Niemand303 has joined #RO
<xShadowx>
egg: s/as/de
<Qboid>
xShadowx thinks egg meant to say: so first author means your name is aardvark, ldet author that it's zythum :-p
<xShadowx>
err
<Pap>
o/ NathanKell|WORK
* xShadowx
quietly kills bot in a corner
<Pap>
Do you have any crafts with SSTU engines that you have flying around?
<egg>
Thomas: maybe replacement should be per-channel
qwertyy2 has joined #RO
Guest6721 has joined #RO
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: I suppose he _could_ use the same constant-pitch-angle calculations konrad asc uses
<soundnfury>
and just have somehow already got it lined up before staging
<soundnfury>
but I can't imagine anything except maybe an Atlas sustainer having long enough burn time for that to insert above atmosphere...
Maxsimal has joined #RO
<Maxsimal>
o/
<soundnfury>
\o
<Maxsimal>
How's it going with RIS soundnfury?
<soundnfury>
Apparently I'm the planetary flyby guy
<soundnfury>
I got first Venus probe, looks like I'm gonna get Mars too
<soundnfury>
and I haven't gotten _near_ any other firsts xD
<soundnfury>
makes me wish I'd given them bigger payoffs ;)
Rokker has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
<Maxsimal>
lol What did you base the payoffs off of?
<soundnfury>
A mixture of the contracts' rewardFunds and guesswork
<soundnfury>
frankly, given how much guesswork and making-shit-up went into those numbers, I'm surprised by the absence of complaints
Guest6721 has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
<Maxsimal>
Hrmm - btw, so the leader doesn't get another reward if he does the milestone first in RIS?
qwertyy2 has quit [Ping timeout: 186 seconds]
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: My Molniyas
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: If you missed, what kind of ascents do you fly that PEG is more complicated?
<Pap>
OK NathanKell|WORK, just so you are aware, I pushed some SSTU fixes (vast improvements) to the accuracy of the engine sizes only, no mass numbers were affected
<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: indeed, it's to stop one person getting too far ahead
<Pap>
soundnfury: Could there be Major Milestones that even if the leader achieves, they still get paid? That would be something fun, like putting people on the Moon, Landing on Mars
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Ok! Did you change the R-7 series engines? Because AFAIK they're already correct
<Pap>
Yes I did, the actual scale of the engines was wrong, (Everything was a blanket re-size), but the mounts (if you use them) are still correct
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: That seems weird, since the R-7 mounts have cutouts for the verniers
<NathanKell|WORK>
which the verniers currently seemed correctly placed in
<NathanKell|WORK>
I'll have a look when I get home
<NathanKell|WORK>
accuracy gooooood tho, obvs! :)
<Pap>
If they are an issue, let me know, those I will change if need be to fit properly in those mounts (I thought I checked they till did, but after changing 40 engines, I cannot be sure)
Niemand303 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<NathanKell|WORK>
no worries :)
ProjectThoth has joined #RO
<Bornholio>
regex nice launcher :) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/27292-what-did-you-do-in-ksp-today/&page=1415#comment-3127556 my new career in a chaotic mess so far since merge
<regex>
Bornholio, which LV?
<Qboid>
regex: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [21.07.2017 06:38:56]: "KCT upgrade points represents staff/workforce. Upkeep should be based on that as well as facility level."
<regex>
Also, hell yeah, nice post.
<regex>
Ih, the Vanguard/Juno Explorer, lol.
<regex>
NathanKell|WORK, what is the expected upgrade points at certain places during the career? How do you expect facility/upgrade costs to mesh with budget based on rep that degrades over time? What would you say is the average yearly salary of the workforce (astronauts were paid up to $20000 per year with no additional expenses)?
<Bornholio>
the pretty OR 1-1 vanguard, need to read back posts too
<regex>
I have come around to the banking idea.
<regex>
Thanks man, I appreciate it. That was a fun launcher.
<regex>
dat moon rocket tho.
<Bornholio>
Yeah not much for normal looking rockets, plus doing the moon launches a big early
<Bornholio>
bit
<Bornholio>
regex what is your overlay from
<Bornholio>
I know its a mod just can't remember which, or am confused :)
<regex>
Yeah, sorry, Bornholio, i don't get desktop notification from Quassel on this machine anymore (it's kind of fuckered, I really need to do a full reinstall).
<regex>
and thanks Pap
egg is now known as egg|releasing|egg
<Raidernick>
NathanKell|WORK, you around?
<Bornholio>
regex alerts, no thanks :) sounds like its workinf fine. I just need one more screen to put it on when i have three others occupied
<regex>
heh
<regex>
I actually like the alerts on my gaming box, the overlay doesn't even mess with Dead Cells. On my work machine though, I get tons of alerts anyway so I'd probably still miss them
<NathanKell|WORK>
Raidernick: in and out
<Raidernick>
NathanKell|WORK, when you get a chance check that PR I had to rewrite the plugin to make it work properly with realfuels
<NathanKell|WORK>
regex: I'd say something like 4-8 total BP/sec and 1+ science/day when thinking about lunar missions, whatever that works out to
<Raidernick>
disabling the staging broke the plugin
<NathanKell|WORK>
Raidernick: ok!
<Raidernick>
so i redid it
<Raidernick>
you can download the new plugin from the PR
<Raidernick>
i linked it
<NathanKell|WORK>
cool
<Raidernick>
you'll also need the pr
<Raidernick>
lol
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah
<Raidernick>
i have it check for moduleengines and moduleenginesfx now
<NathanKell|WORK>
regex: I agree someone probably needs to chart upgrade points per state of tree and develop some kind of 'expected points to buy per node' formula
<NathanKell|WORK>
Raidernick: But our engines are ModuleEnginesRF
<Raidernick>
NathanKell|WORK, it still works
<NathanKell|WORK>
ok
<Raidernick>
dont ask me how
<Raidernick>
lol
<NathanKell|WORK>
I'll look at the source then when I get home
<NathanKell|WORK>
lunch time, o/
ProjectThoth has quit [Quit: ++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. ++?????++]
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: I haven't tried PEG yet, it just sounded more complicated, from what Bornholio was describing.
<regex>
NathanKell|WORK, that would certainly help with balancing.
<regex>
but in all honesty I've found something that I personally enjoy playing at the moment, believe it or not.Adding some banking and facility upkeep would probably tighten things a bit.
<regex>
I've made KCT upgrades progressively increase in price as well, so maybe facility costs aren't entirely needed.
<regex>
But the big worry for me is degrading rep and facility costs, because getting to a top-tier facility and then losing the rep to support it, well, there's no way to sell facility upgrades.
rsparkyc|away has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
ProjectThoth has joined #RO
<NathanKell|WORK>
regex: IIRC with modifier-click on the buildings you can make them level down?
<NathanKell|WORK>
but KCT may clobber that
<regex>
huhwhat?
<regex>
well, that may be a solution in the future.
<regex>
Another thing I was thinking was making the admin building actually useful by having it discount facility costs.
<NathanKell|WORK>
ah, interesting
<regex>
based on its level.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: that's why I'm asking what you do for your ascents *now* :P
<regex>
because who the fuck levels that thing amirite?
<NathanKell|WORK>
^
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: I use Mechjeb ascent guidance. 50 degree turn shape, turn end altitude that varies on my stages TWR. I set my orbit altitude to 10000km so it never cuts me off. I let it fly most of the way up, but then adjust my final flight path angle a bit to make sure it circularizes where I want it. And right before I circularize, I set orbital altitude close to my current altitude, and it cuts off itself.
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah, PEG automates all that.
<NathanKell|WORK>
that's the point of it :)
<leudaimon|work>
NathanKell|WORK: where do I get a working version of PEG?
<Maxsimal>
Bornholio made it sound not very automatic... also why did he say you need a 6000-7000m/s 2nd stange? That sounds exorbitant.
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: check on Sarbian Jenkins page, if someone doesn't have the link
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: Dunno. I have not been having the problems with it that others have :]
<NathanKell|WORK>
for me it's quite automatic. Guess a decent pitch program (which is no harder than guessing a turn start m/s and turn end and turn shape for old MJ), put in desired Ap and Pe, and go.
<NathanKell|WORK>
(well, and set number of stages to be used)
<Pap>
Maxsimal: I am a big fan. I have not tweaked any of the values like NK has for his Launch Vehicles and it has worked great for me
<Bornholio>
i never said need huge dv second stage just you need enough time to burn
<NathanKell|WORK>
don't need that either, PEG works fine on Titan I/II
<Maxsimal>
Pap|NathanKell: Well I'll give it a try at some point.
<NathanKell|WORK>
I mean, it even worked on Hypergolic_Skunk 's?) weird thingie with a 2 minute upper :D
ProjectThoth has quit [Quit: ++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. ++?????++]
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: The thing is, it can't coast though.
<leudaimon|work>
any place I can find a tutorial or an specific video of you explaining the basics NathanKell|WORK?
<NathanKell|WORK>
So you have to build LVs / go to orbits with that in mind.
<Bornholio>
peg always saves dV over what i can fly, assuming it can be flown without coast phase
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: A ways back I had some streams, but I don't recall when. It should be fairly simple though, the only ticklish bit is setting up the pitch program
<lamont>
it works on the rediculous Saturn Ib-ish thing that ferram built which you can pull off RL-10s off the upper to get it down to like 0.30 TWR
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: You probably want something like program start anywhere from 5 (1.5+ TWR, 2min stage) to 15 (1.2 TWR, 3min stage).
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: Then depending on desired orbit you set the dps
<ferram4>
Did it ever work out with only 4 RL10s lamont?
<lamont>
no
<NathanKell|WORK>
something like 0.6 for a 300km orbit, 0.7 or more for 185 (again, depedning on TWR)
<ferram4>
Boo. Probably needs to have some Castors to help it off the pad, and then it'll work.
<lamont>
i suspect i need to get to saturn V IGM to make that work, i think the burn is just too long
<NathanKell|WORK>
and pitch program time, about 90s is fine now that we have mutlistage PEG
<NathanKell|WORK>
If you are flying many launches to the same orbit, then look at whether PEG pitches up or down on pitch program end, and adjust accordingly
<ferram4>
What does IGM include that PEG doesn't?
<leudaimon|work>
nice, next time I play I'll try it... my current designs shouldn't be very challenging, 2.5m first stage, 3-4min second, starting delta-v about 1.3
<ferram4>
And are there papers?
* soundnfury
still says konrad asc is better
<lamont>
IGM doesn’t make as many approximations
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: sounds perfect.
<lamont>
it should handle long burns around the curvature of the Earth better, and should handle initial ascent better
<regex>
Does it handle SRM uppers?
<regex>
Something like Thor-Able?
<soundnfury>
konrad handles *everything* :P
<regex>
I'll have to pick that up and try it.
<regex>
o/
regex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Maxsimal>
Ok - and I just grab the rss-dev branch?
<leudaimon|work>
so PEG works with times and angles instead of speeds and altitudes as in the current ascent guidance, right?
<lamont>
PEG itself integrates the trajectory
<leudaimon|work>
I was referring to the input options actually...
<lamont>
so the atmospheric part of the pitch program is angle + time
<lamont>
mostly all you have to do is control how fast it pitches over to get it to around 40 degree pitch
<leudaimon|work>
nice
<leudaimon|work>
that's at this pitch that the pitch program ends and PEG guidance starts?
<lamont>
0.75 deg/sec for high TWR launch, 0.40 for low TWR launch, with enough time to run it out to 40 degrees
<lamont>
yeah
<leudaimon|work>
cool
<lamont>
you can watch the PEG prediction, and it outputs what the end result of the pitch program will be
<lamont>
you want to more or less line those up so there’s not a crazy wobble when it ends and guidance takes over
<leudaimon|work>
but I have to input this rate, right? or does it try to guess the optimal pitch program for my TWR profile?
<lamont>
no, initial ascent is all you
<leudaimon|work>
ok
<lamont>
i’ve got a pile of math which explains how to do optimal atmospheric gravity turns with low AoA, but that’s a different algorithm. PEG is all about exoatmospheric flight up to orbital insertion
<leudaimon|work>
in my current designs with the ascent guidance I end up having a negative pitch to control apo, I hope with PEG I can get a more optimal pitch program to avoid that
egg|releasing|egg is now known as egg
<lamont>
PEG will figure out the optimal pitch program for insertion. in some cases it burns very off-horizontal
<Qboid>
lamont: egg|releasing|egg left a message for you in #principia [21.07.2017 21:15:42]: "if you can provide us with a build at the above tag (2017072310-Cayley) + your makefile patch within the next day we can include it in the zip we link that way we get our first cross-platform build; please send us the version string too if you do so (make sure to commit before building, so your version doesn't say -
<Qboid>
dirty)"
<egg>
oh hi :-)
<lamont>
yo
<egg>
(for Чебышёв you can get your pull request merged so that mac is built at the same tag, but if we can start to have a single zip that would already simplify things)
<lamont>
_generally_ you want to try to pitch over aggressively and avoid gravity losses. if you pitch over too aggressively of course you can burn up, or flip in the atmosphere, so you need to back off from that. also if you don’t pitch over aggressively enough you’ll have high gravity losses. PEG may also fail to converge in either case as well, since if you loft something up too high and want too low of an orbit it may not be able to fix th
<lamont>
in single burn. similarly if you burn too horizontal at the start but give PEG a stupidly low TWR upper it’ll fail to find a solution to that as well. its still garbage-in/garbage-out.
<lamont>
also if you give it 3000x3000 it can’t do that in a single burn. that’s a launch to a 3000km apoapsis followed by a circularization burn. your burn must be at full throttle and must terminate at insertion into the orbit. so 185x3000 will work.
<lamont>
egg: i made a build off of master this morning, but haven’t had any time
<leudaimon|work>
yeah, I'm aiming for saner things... it's just that I think it will be easier to tweak the gravity turn to avoid the strong negative pitch close to orbit I usually need
<egg>
lamont: if you just fetch again to get the tag and make again you should get mac binaries that work, then you can send us a zip and we can merge them (we should only have to take your dll.config to get the dylib mapping and the dylib itself)
<leudaimon|work>
I like low parking orbits, but it's hard to define an aggressive gravity turn with the ascent guidance
<egg>
lamont: (you need to fetch to get the tag so it says Cayley in the version string, otherwise that will confuse users)
<lamont>
yep i saw that
<lamont>
PEG will just figure that out
<lamont>
(leudiamon)
<leudaimon|work>
cool
<lamont>
(i didn’t generate a release this morning, just validated that master builds)
<egg>
it's good that it does :-)
<Maxsimal>
I wish persistent rotation would save your settings
<Pap>
I obviously don't understand how to use persistent rotation (or I don't understand what it is supposed to do), but when I have a solid, unguided stage that needs to coast to TLI, I can never keep it pointed at the horizon as it drifts on me even though I am spun up
<leudaimon|work>
Pap: that is more likely to be caused by precession than PR
<leudaimon|work>
PR just keeps your rotation during time warp
<Maxsimal>
Bit you have to deactivate reference rotation or something like that to get it to work the way you'd expect.
<leudaimon|work>
but I've been observing some strange behavior with it too... like things not keeping pointing to the sun and similar stuff
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: no, it treats it just like I am with stock. If I am pointing at the Maneuver Node, say straight vertical, as I rotate around the planet, my "aim" rotates with it
<Pap>
I am probably using it wrong
<leudaimon|work>
weird
<leudaimon|work>
are you setting a reference for rotation?
<leudaimon|work>
if you set it to rotate relative to earth, that would happen
<leudaimon|work>
got to go... try with rotation relative to 'none"
qwertyy2 has joined #RO
leudaimon|work has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
<xShadowx>
!seen agathorn
<Qboid>
xShadowx: I haven't seen the user agathorn yet.
<xShadowx>
o.O
<gazpachian>
case sensitive, perhaps?
<Bornholio>
he is marked away
<xShadowx>
this weekend i finally get ksp time, do i want to make a rover, or a lander? cant decide
<xShadowx>
oh there he is ;3 i was lookin at ops hah
<Bornholio>
decent into saturn, its comming soon
<xShadowx>
hmm i accually havent gone to saturn yet
<NathanKell|WORK>
Rokker should ping on Air Show as well as YooSaf.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Except this one probably has too much Navy for his taste.
<ferram4>
I dunno why he has such a hateboner for the Navy.
<NathanKell|WORK>
The Blue Angels stole his lunch money, clearly.
<ferram4>
At least their planes can take a beating rather than fall apart the second they don't get the dainty landing treatment. :P
<NathanKell|WORK>
STRONK
NathanKell|WORK has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
<Bornholio>
those marines can eceed the tensile strength of their aircraft easy. watch a guy drop his harrier just a tad hard, spent 3 weeks in my hangar
ProjectThoth has joined #RO
<Rokker>
NathanKell|AWAY: shhh
ProjectThoth has quit [Quit: ++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. ++?????++]
<xShadowx>
and navy dont need a huge ass runway for landing like the kiddy airforce pilots :P
<xShadowx>
navy forces you to live on oceanfront property though, the horror :P