<Bornholio>
the comsat resource requirement makes it a lot harder to single launch a network.
<Bornholio>
lamont how will Peg handle attempting to go 0 inclination from the cape?
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<NathanKell>
Bornholio: PEG handles pitch, azimuth is still the old MJ logic I think
<Bornholio>
rock solid no inclination change...
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vQEnt
<github>
RealismOverhaul/pap1723-ROupdates a57d3c8 NathanKell: Try to avoid hydrazine auto-unlock
<NathanKell>
Bornholio have you unlocked hydrazine yet?
<NathanKell>
leudaimon you too
<leudaimon>
almost didn't play in the new tree NathanKell
<NathanKell>
?
<Bornholio>
nope
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Ok make sure you pull RO. And when you get early flight control, see if hydrazine auto-unlocks or you have to pay money for it
<NathanKell>
It's supposed to cost 10k, but for me it unlocked for free
<leudaimon>
didn't unlock any blue-sky research nodes
<Bornholio>
tech unlock is slow...
<leudaimon>
the time I'm having to play i'm trying to get up-to-date in RIS
<NathanKell>
ah yeah
<Bornholio>
ah i see both rcs and tank show no cost
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<lamont>
NathanKell: the actual PEG paper has yaw steering
<lamont>
my MJ implementation - yeah, not so much, hard enough just getting pitch right so far...
<Bornholio>
couple of good trips couple of bad, think it had to do with when i stage off covers adn turn on some lr101's
<Bornholio>
if it has a bad time it will just keep pushing AP up
<lamont>
i still don’t quite understand the yaw steering in the paper because it seems to me like not only do you need to yaw to hit the right angle, but you also need to yaw to hit the correct plane, and i don’t see where the distance to the target plane goes to zero
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<lamont>
its possible that is all supposed to be in the booster pitch program though and i’m looking at the wrong paper
<lamont>
“stage off covers and turn on some lr101s”?
<Bornholio>
i have two pairs of lr101+105 to give me a limited restart in orbit, and use remaining fuel in TLI
<Bornholio>
booster is a pair of 79's and drop tanks
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<lamont>
can you gist/pastebin me a craft file?
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Bornholio that sounds...scary :]
<NathanKell|Twitch>
gib craft pic pls?
<lamont>
yeah that sounds like it would be the kind of thing that would seriously abuse my new stage tracking code, so i think i need to try that out…
<NathanKell|Twitch>
ohh making things recoverable, neat!
<lamont>
yeah i was just admiring that
<Bornholio>
is the arobee core letting me ignore control limits for some reason?
<Bornholio>
just noticced i didn't have control in the lower
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<Bornholio>
so that might be a needed fix if its not intended, the little aerobee cu-47ws overrode the need for any other avionics
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<Ultra>
Hows it going
<Bornholio>
hey
<Ultra>
Hows it going
<lamont>
cool i was wondering if anyone used drop tanks in RO
<Ultra>
Anyone here work on CKAN?
<Bornholio>
launched rockets :) I'm a Stage recovery addict lamont
<Bornholio>
don't think so ultra
<Ultra>
ok, just wondering i was posting an issue on their github. CKAN currently pulls DRE version 7.5 when it should be pulling version 7.6
<Ultra>
basically makes kerbals explosive in eva
<Bornholio>
raidernick had to ask linusgurugamer to push a fix for his mods yesterday or the day before
<Bornholio>
linux^
<lamont>
hah yeah your ship broke all my stage-identification code
<Bornholio>
is it the interstages?
<lamont>
i’m certain drop tanks are part of the problem
<taniwha>
Ultra: #ckan
<Raidernick>
taniwha, that would be nice if anyone was there
<Ultra>
I don't even check #ckan anymore
<taniwha>
hmm, true, it is a tad quiet over there
<lamont>
i’m trying to track mechjeb stages — let mechjeb do all the heavy lifting — but since staging can change around some what randomly in flight i track mechjeb stages by “what engines are burning” — the drop tanks confuse the crap out of that since you’ve got multiple stages with exactly the same engines burning
<lamont>
i’ve got a FIXME to add the tanks that are draining to the ‘fingerprint’ with the engines that are active
<Bornholio>
how about the sep motors do they baoggle it more?
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Bornholio: fixed
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQEly
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree 228336a NathanKell: fix avionics of Taerobee aerobee control
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree a30c11a NathanKell: Make later pads cost more
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQElS
<lamont>
i’ve got sep motors on mine and had to work around those, but its possible whatever your doing thare is another bug, i thought i had that worked around though
<Bornholio>
NK 1'm not able to purchase the proceedurals, is there any issue on your end with them?
<Bornholio>
lamont i'm fond of side boosters also, draining to central core, leaving it full when they sep
<lamont>
yeah that actually confuses mechjeb itself
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Bornholio: pull again
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Bornholio: there was an issue yesterday Pap caught IIRC
<Bornholio>
just pulled 30 minutes ago
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Bornholio: How are you doing that at that tech level? I thought we disabled crossfeed on decouplers
<Bornholio>
drop tank parts :)
<NathanKell|Twitch>
eh?
<NathanKell|Twitch>
from what?
<Bornholio>
LML
<NathanKell|Twitch>
LML?
<lamont>
“let me look” i assume
<NathanKell|Twitch>
ah
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Are they non-RP0 or are they placed/priced?
<Bornholio>
small hardpoint
<NathanKell|Twitch>
...ah
<NathanKell|Twitch>
that needs some patching
<NathanKell|Twitch>
oh hmm
<lamont>
cross feed definitely messes up MJ staging so messes up my code by proxy
<NathanKell|Twitch>
except it needs to be plumbed for planes
<NathanKell|Twitch>
don't cheat, Bornholio :P
<Bornholio>
they don't say non-pr0
<ferram4>
Clearly, they need to have low heat sensitivity
<Bornholio>
and they drop at a few km up
<Bornholio>
well they are tought enough to go to orbit if thats not intended
<taniwha>
you would need turbo pumps in your drop tanks
<Bornholio>
structural pylon also
<Raidernick>
Sarbian, you around?
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<NathanKell|Twitch>
Bornholio: Yeah, the problem isn't the part. The problem is the fact that unlike for planes, rocket tanks are pressurized, and have insane flow
<NathanKell|Twitch>
oh, and cryogenics.
<NathanKell|Twitch>
there's a reason it wasn't done until Shuttle
<NathanKell|Twitch>
and that's not a case of multitank feed, as it is for F9H (which is only happening in the 21st century)
<Bornholio>
you gave him the tool and the monkey got the bug out of the coconut :P
<Bornholio>
side boosters it is!
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Pap|4thOfJuly is now known as Ppap
Ppap is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
<Bornholio>
do that again as fourth
<Pap>
I went through and read backchat
<Pap>
then I said I was here ;)
<Bornholio>
that buffer is gonna wait a long time to deliver those messages then :)
<Pap>
Same stuff you shared on the Issue Post Bornholio?
<Bornholio>
yes
<Pap>
Awesome, I will look at it soon
<Bornholio>
was going to do more icon things, trying to figure out how to undo whatever i did to proceedural avionics
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<Pap>
Bornholio: do you have a procedural avionics CFG in the base RP-0 directory?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Ah, one other thing I have noticed. I'm very strapped for science atm, and if I didn't land on the moon until historical I'd probably hit a dead end.
<Pap>
I was very cuirious if that was going to happen NK, I assumed it might
<Pap>
So, once we hit the first Blue Sky Node, lower the science costs by how much do you think?
<NathanKell>
I think part of the issue is there's so much more to research to get to basic capsules than there used to be
<Bornholio>
is it avionic.cfg or something else
<NathanKell>
there's crew survivability and two EDL nodes
<NathanKell>
(plus the bluesky)
<NathanKell>
so I'd say maybe lower HSF by 2-3pts average (some more than others) - I wouldn't lower the engine nodes at all
<NathanKell>
then the next batch (advanced capsules era) by 5+ pts average
<Pap>
Yeah, that sounds pretty accurate to me
<NathanKell>
On Hard it will tend to require multiple landings and a Mars flyby before getting to Apollo era tech
<NathanKell>
(in addition to Venus flyby)
<Bornholio>
ok proc avionics is not there, its in master but not branch, do i need to install master then append branch?
<NathanKell>
Pap: I think we might also need to add extra science to the 2nd gen capsules to make them worth it
<NathanKell>
like an Advanced Crew Report or something
<NathanKell>
Pap: btw is Gemini/Agena supposed to be in Early Docking (with that icon) or in the next node with the Propellant-only port?
<Bornholio>
nathankell is loading master then appending the branch on it correct? Thought that was wrong but iPap's branch is missing proceduralAvionic.cfg
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Check in RP-0/Tree/*
<NathanKell>
see if the file is there
<Bornholio>
ah yes, its there
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQE4i
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree 98f1f2b NathanKell: Fix lunar rated heatshield appearing too early
<Pap>
NathanKell: what do you mean about add extra science for the 2nd gen capsules?
<Pap>
The Gemini/Agena is supposed to be in the 1964 one. I think they did get flipped somehow, I am fixing that
<NathanKell>
Pap: Ah, gotcha. And I mean e.g. add a second science experiment to them, "Advanced Crew Report".
<NathanKell>
So you have a reason for flying them rather than the earlier capsules.
<Pap>
Ah yes, the 2 crew missions are probably not enough incentive
<NathanKell>
Pap: Yeah, they're only funds, and we clearly bottleneck on science, not funds :)
<NathanKell>
you can always grind sat missions. You can't grind science.
<Bornholio>
how about increase crew report but limit them like DMagic does with recon report
<NathanKell>
?
<Bornholio>
looks like the two parts use totalScienceLevel = 1 or totalScienceLevel = 0.5 to change how much can be harvested byt the smaller instrument
<NathanKell>
ah, hmm
<NathanKell>
does that requires DMagic's plugin for a different experiment type or something?
<Bornholio>
also use experimentLimit = 4 xmitDataScalar = 0.75 so maybe it would need his dll
<blowfish>
how much demand is there for another RF release before going to 1.3?
B787_300 is now known as B787_Bed
<blowfish>
the 1.3 changes are already on master but I could create a branch and release off that
<NathanKell>
Please
<NathanKell>
please do
<Bornholio>
it has explody tank fix
<NathanKell>
^
<blowfish>
heh ok
<Bornholio>
that or play with ignore heat :)
<blowfish>
gonna test some changes to the fuel pumps and then do both
<Probus>
NathanKell, do you expect any big roadblocks converting RO and its associated mods to 1.3 (other than time)?
<NathanKell>
Dunno. Depends what luck ferram4's having with FAR.
<NathanKell>
I don't know of anything else that would roadblock.
<NathanKell>
But then, 1.3 doesn't really add much for us AFAIK
<NathanKell>
so there's no big pressure
<blowfish>
I don't think any 1.3-specific problems have come up in FAR
<blowfish>
heh yeah, not like RO is going to be localized any time soon
<ferram4>
The biggest delay is likely going to be seeing what weirdness has changed in Trajectories to get strange things to happen.
<Probus>
All the Russian parts should be in Russian :)
<ferram4>
Or if nothig has changed and my users just enjoy reporting stupid things.
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQE4p
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree ff12e48 NathanKell: Tweak pad upgrade costs AGAIN.
<ferram4>
Also confirming that nothing weird happens with the fairing event integration.
<blowfish>
wouldn't that probably be on the trajectories side?
<ferram4>
That's what I'd think.
<ferram4>
But try getting people to report it there.
<ferram4>
On the one hand, it's irritating
<ferram4>
On the other hand, I'm apparently the one capable of fixing all the issues, so that's a nice ego boost.
<NathanKell>
and FAR is the one mod to rule them all...
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: 1.3 fixes runway :P
<NathanKell>
no it doesn't
<NathanKell>
it makes the other tier runways as good as the tier 3 one
<xShadowx>
o.O
<NathanKell>
which we already use
<NathanKell>
or so I recall--I don't think there were changes to the T3 runway in 1.3.
<Bornholio>
it no fix jagged breaks in runway?
<xShadowx>
i just know it wasnt as bumpy and i didnt blow up on it :3
<NathanKell>
Ah no I'm quite wrong
<NathanKell>
he did fix the T3 one too
<NathanKell>
I didn't think it needed fixing, but I guess it needed a bit. So \o/
<ferram4>
FAR = MY PRESHUS?
<NathanKell>
ok, that's one reason :)
<NathanKell>
ferram4: The world knows it, don't we :P
<xShadowx>
i want the dirt runway to be bumpy and full of potholes
<ferram4>
That looks like an SLS w/ Pyrios boosters
<NathanKell>
Cuz it is, except with M-1SLs?
<ferram4>
No, those are LR-87-LH2s
<NathanKell>
Or is this...ah
<ferram4>
THe boosters are H-1bs
<NathanKell>
Then the sides must be E-1s?
<NathanKell>
Ah, ok
<NathanKell>
that's a hefty load of core thrust for that amount of boost
<NathanKell>
Where's the EELVness come in?
<ferram4>
Well, yeah. But it never gets above ~4.5g
<Pap>
Why 4 stacked 1T Satellite Cores?
<NathanKell>
Ah, SEC?
<ferram4>
Well, it terms of stupid amount of payload to GTO and pointless overuse of hydrolox
<NathanKell>
Heh
<NathanKell>
Baby SLS
<NathanKell>
So cute
<ferram4>
At least for the time. 4.5t of satellite to GTO is kinda silly.
<NathanKell>
You just wait until I get NK-15s :P
* Pap
quietly moved NK-15's further back into the tree
<NathanKell>
69, yes?
<ferram4>
I should stretch the upper stage. No reason it needs to start at 1g and only provide 4.3 km/s
<NathanKell>
maybe 68?
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Wait, what's the upper using?
<NathanKell>
Single LR87?
<Pap>
69
<ferram4>
Also an LR-87
<NathanKell>
yeah, a 1 atop a 3 is a bit OP
<ferram4>
But the vac version. The core has the sustainer.
<NathanKell>
yeah, which makes it worse, thrust-wise
<ferram4>
Indeed, but I insist. No atm lighting of vac engines.
<ferram4>
Might make sense to switch to RL10s for the upper, shrink it down, and stretch the core.
<NathanKell>
I don't mean putting vacs on the first stage, I agree there
<NathanKell>
I mean add a fourth :)
<NathanKell>
(and stretch a bit)
<Bornholio>
pap found the culprit, extra copy of rp-0 in rss folder. i'm going to sleep that one off
<ferram4>
Oh, also, 3km/s on an AJ10 stuffed right at the top.
<NathanKell>
....what is this, Ariane?
<Pap>
Bornholio: that will definitely cause some errors! ;)
<NathanKell>
Or Delta IV Light?
<ferram4>
No, it has too many stages for that. :D
<ferram4>
Something that started out as a super Delta II and then... changed.
<NathanKell>
:D
<NathanKell>
So as honest as the DII->DIV evolution :P
<Pap>
NathanKell: running a test on some changes now, will let you know the outcome
<ferram4>
Well, I kept the final stage for now.
<ferram4>
Might make more sense to just tell it to go to hell though.
<NathanKell>
Pap \o/
<ferram4>
Yeah, so the cost informs me that including the satellite, this whole shebang costs 58 mil. Which seems excessive.
<ferram4>
And tells me that I should probably get rid of the hydrolox in favor of something cheaper.
<NathanKell>
...yeah
<NathanKell>
but that is, like, Saturn I levels of perforamnce.
<NathanKell>
s/amn/man/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: but that is, like, Saturn I levels of performance.
<blowfish>
wat
<blowfish>
are fuel pumps useless right now?
<blowfish>
I'm not seeing any boiloff in prelaunch even without pumps
<NathanKell>
yeah, tanks are kept at BP during prelaunch even without a pump
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<blowfish>
so pumps don't actually do anything?
<blowfish>
unless you deliberately underfill in the editor?
<NathanKell>
or a resource is consumed
<NathanKell>
(say, EC)
<blowfish>
stock launch clamps provide ec though don't they?
<NathanKell>
yeah, but not that much of it
<NathanKell>
also, life support (is that used in prelaunch?)
<blowfish>
no idea
<NathanKell>
but maybe we should only keep tanks cold when pumps exist?
<blowfish>
that would make sense, not sure where in the code to look for that though
<blowfish>
maybe I'll just make this change for now
<NathanKell>
in the boiloff calcs
<NathanKell>
when in prelaunch it sets tank temp instead of performing boiloff
<NathanKell>
you could instead do boiloff normally, and have the pumps set tank temp
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQERt
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree c699262 pap1723: SSTU Soyuz to 1967 Era, Removed 1963 Staged, Fixed Early Docking Node...
<lamont>
finally got “Stable PEG Guidance” back in my code instead of piles of NaN and logspam
<lamont>
still only 1-stage tho, but the matrix solving part for the guidance numbers should be N-stage
<blowfish>
yeah, found the code
<blowfish>
although it would involve iterating through every module on every part until finding a fuel pump, for every tank ... that can't be great
<blowfish>
could cache and update in onVesselWasModified I guess
<NathanKell>
blowfish: Don't do it that way, do it the other direction
<NathanKell>
set the temp in the pump module
<NathanKell>
it's already iterating all parts
<NathanKell>
whenever it finds a TANK with a resource with a BP > the part's temp, set the part temp to that
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<NathanKell|AFK>
nomz!
<blowfish>
lowestTankTemperature is on the tank though
<blowfish>
nomz indeed. Eating some pretty great jambalaya right now
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<blowfish>
hmm ... maybe set some boolean on the tank to true, then on the tank check for it then set it to false
<acharles>
NathanKell|AFK: I think there’s a 1.25m heatshield in the tree that is listed as non-RP-0, though I’m not sure if it got fixed yet.
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<blowfish>
oh huh, launch clamps are already setting fuel tanks' temperatures to their minimum
<acharles>
lamont: I’ve been code reviewing your changes on the dev branch. It seems like you don’t guarantee that T is always positive, which the paper talks about. MJ will never give you negative, but it could return 0 during staging, which would be bad, I think.
<acharles>
blowfish: that’s good, right :P
<blowfish>
it's duplicated between the tank and pump modules
<lamont>
the new code has a conditional in it which will trigger when staging happens
<lamont>
it removes the stage
<ferram4>
But, the important question: will it cause my rocket to throw an exception in its guidance code and pull an Ariane 5 first flight?
<lamont>
when that happens we have to flip from, say, 2-stage PEG to 1-stage PEG, the stages[1] needs to become stages[0] and then the A and B values with the delta-A and delta-B steps, etc.
<lamont>
if there needs to be any sanity checking it needs to go there
<lamont>
we might need to disable the updating of the algorithm while the stage separation is happening (similar to terminalGuidance)
<acharles>
lamont: T could be 0 before the player stages.
<acharles>
Though, I’m not sure if 0 is an issue or only negative values.
<lamont>
so in UpdateStageStats() what happens right now is that when the stage disappears from KSP we get -1 out of FixKSPStage() which later triggers the stages.RemoveAt(i) to drop the stage out of PEG — that can be extended so that if stages[0].avail_dV <= 0 it also drops the stage or something like that — but i don’t want to try to solve that problem right now before i have that problem.
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<lamont>
its also complicated by the fact that players can rearrange the staging and i’ve managed to get it into a state where a stage when to zero dV temporarily in the PEG readout and the i ‘fixed’ it and it ‘reaquired’ it (mostly be moving a vernier and then moving the main engine to a new stage) — and the code to do that avail_dV <= 0 staging would also mess that up
<lamont>
ferram4: watching the video so i can try to recreate it...
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<ferram4>
lamont, no, this is not one you want to recreate. This is, "the guidance fails and the rocket goes sideways and comes apart."
<lamont>
someone forgot to click “limit AoA to 5 degrees” sheesh, n00bs…
<ferram4>
No, they forgot that integers can overflow.
<ferram4>
If you don't provide enough memory for them.
<acharles>
I could’ve told them that.
<ferram4>
And that made it crash.
<ferram4>
Good times, good times.
<acharles>
I don’t know theta from tau, but I know integer overflows
<lamont>
looks like the aerodynamic forces shredded the payload first
<xShadowx>
either nasa moved to seattle, ww3 finally started, or 4th of july is early this year
<lamont>
kind of looks like the upper stage comes off it as well, and then doesn’t fireball, wonder if it was hypergolic
* xShadowx
hears loud explosions outside
<lamont>
xshadowx are you also seattle?
<xShadowx>
you are too?:)
<lamont>
alki
<lamont>
its quiet over here right now
<lamont>
(i’m south end so not right on the beach)
<xShadowx>
im just south of you
<xShadowx>
hi :P
<lamont>
o/
<xShadowx>
someone is launching the mortars that make more bang than show o.o
<xShadowx>
surprised you dont hear em
<lamont>
went outside, can’t hear anything
<lamont>
also reminded me that tomorrow is recycling...
<xShadowx>
all this money in smoke......if only it went to nasa.....
<lamont>
all the dogs in the seattle would vote for that
<lamont>
s/the seattle/seattle/g
<Qboid>
lamont meant to say: all the dogs in seattle would vote for that
<Bornholio>
my black cat would vote for elimination of noise and increase in rabbit and moouse population limits.
<xShadowx>
my cat would vote for imprisonment of noisy smelly dogs :P
<xShadowx>
whihch would be all of em
<lamont>
ah there’s ww3
<Bornholio>
kerbal in VAB, shall be allowed to exit monitor and provide mobile toy deliver, so sayeth el gato. lloks at me and ask how he can get to them
<lamont>
only 3 brush fires and 1 illegal burn in today’s 911 logs so far
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<NathanKell>
o/
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<lamontzzzz>
‘nite
<NathanKell>
lamontzzzz: And yes, Ariane 5's upper was hypergolic
<NathanKell>
(EPS - egg|zzz|egg will doubtless expand the acronym)
<lamontzzzz>
is that why it looks like fell off the booster and didn’t go boom?
<NathanKell>
yeah, think so
<lamontzzzz>
makes sense
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vQEwU
<github>
RealismOverhaul/pap1723-ROupdates 7feeba7 NathanKell: Tweak post-rated-burntime reliability curve. Working on #1668.
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<Theysen>
!tell Starwaster do you have an ETA on the 7.6 release of Deadly Reentry or still testing? :)
<Qboid>
Theysen: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg|zzz|egg>
EPS?
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: [EPS] => Étage à Propergols Stockables
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: no need for an egg, Qboid will do
<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: that was the thing though; in that language overflow is normally checked, so this *would* have raised (not thrown, it's Ada not C++/C#) an exception. but they disabled exceptions "for performance reasons", and thus got shitty numbers without warning; iirc the investigation found that things would have worked out had they kept exceptions enabled, even with the overflow (overflow which was because software for the
<egg|zzz|egg>
slower ariane 4)
<egg|zzz|egg>
\o/ cluster \o/
<egg|zzz|egg>
UmbralRaptor: cluster!
* UmbralRaptor
attaches 6 boosters to egg|zzz|egg?
<egg|zzz|egg>
UmbralRaptor: uh, that's a lot of boosters, even ariane 4 was 4 max
<ferram4>
It is not 9 boosters, therefore it is not "a lot"
<UmbralRaptor>
Eh, PSLV regularly does 6, and the Delta II went up to 9.
<egg|zzz|egg>
UmbralRaptor: amusingly in french we have a different word for the non-optional boosters of Ariane 5 (which are called a stage, hence the E in EAP, "powder acceleration stage") and the optional boosters of Ariane 4 (PAP/PAL, "extra powder propeller"/"extra liquid propeller")
<blowfish>
interesting, if I remove the prelaunch check entirely the tanks start empty
<blowfish>
NathanKell, any idea why that might be? Something weird in the first couple of frames maybe?
<ferram4>
egg|zzz|egg, "extra liquid propeller"?
* ferram4
imagines a rocket with a torpedo attached to the side.
* UmbralRaptor
pictures a rocket with 2 nacelles containing turboprops instead of boosters.
<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: well trying to translate "propulseur" very closely etymologically, but therefore a bit far etymologically
<egg|zzz|egg>
propulseur is "that which propels" used for these side rockets as well as things you use to throw spears
<ferram4>
Nope, sorry. You're attaching torpedoes to your rockets.
<UmbralRaptor>
things you use to throw spears... atlatl, woomera, etc?
<egg|zzz|egg>
yep
<ferram4>
The fuel is off, but they do kinda look like torps. Sorta.
<Rokker>
i swear its like someone who has only been playing kerbal for 2 hours
<ferram4>
Use stages to make station
<ferram4>
Including docking them together automatically(?)
<Rokker>
ferram4: and there is a good chance those are made of fiberglass
<ferram4>
Are these hydrolox engines?
<Rokker>
now listen, i know romania isnt at the forefront of aerospace engineering
<Rokker>
but
<Rokker>
i mean
<Rokker>
why
<Rokker>
ferram4: i think so?
<Rokker>
ferram4: prototype at least is h2o2 and kerosene
<ferram4>
That... is not the stupidest of ideas.
<ferram4>
Hypergolic, but not the toxicity of MMH/UDMH + NTO.
<Rokker>
ferram4: christ
egg|zzz|egg is now known as egg|afk|egg
<Rokker>
they estimate only 1 million a launch
<ferram4>
1 million whats? Dollars?
<Rokker>
which is bullshit unless they actually do use like boat grade fiberglass
<Rokker>
ferram4: yes
<ferram4>
True, but on the other hand... Romania.
<ferram4>
It could just be the lower labor costs.
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<ferram4>
Alternatively, it could be straight, pure, 100% post-communist corruption.
<ferram4>
Totally new flavor from straight, pure, 100% communist corruption.
<Rokker>
ferram4: anyways
<Rokker>
this is the company who wanted to air launch a rocket from a giant bastard of a space ship one and an F-22 in seaplane form
<Rokker>
and then gave it up to make ugly hoverboards and shit UAVs
<Rokker>
and then came back to shitty rocket designs
<Rokker>
so
<Rokker>
who the fuck knows
<ferram4>
Maybe their engineers are all drunk?
<Rokker>
ferram4: trying to forget that they live in romania?
<Rokker>
ferram4: the weird thing is, im pretty sure this is an entirely new generation of engineers from the people behind the fucking Stabilo and the early Haas rockets
<taniwha>
only thing I need worry about is when beta = pi/2
<taniwha>
then it's a degenerate hyperbola (just a < )
<taniwha>
beta will range from 0 to pi/2, but not cause any problems
<taniwha>
alpha getting close to pi/2 will cause problems, but that takes the center of the sun being inside the planet :)
Pap|AFK is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
borntosleep is now known as Bornholio
<Theysen>
Pap my man, is there any chance the "First Rendezvous" contract is fulfilled once a kerbal is present and you e.g. from the insertion stage?
<Theysen>
Because that exactly happened to me and I could return home
<Theysen>
*NOT* on the update branch, current official release with updated master branches
<Pap>
Did you EVA?
<Theysen>
no
<Theysen>
I launched a targeting vehicle. I launched my manned craft reached orbit and it already said: Return Home Safely and the rest was checked
<Theysen>
I was confused
<Pap>
There is a bug in how it works, it has been fixed in the newest CC, but that is onl released for 1.3
<Theysen>
gotcha
<Theysen>
Another thing I came across: The Orbital Crewed Flights might have the same thing as the "check satellite for stability".. I accidentally burned past max orbit height and the apoapsis argument kept green and the timer counted, that didn't happen before
<Theysen>
^ Pap
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<Bornholio>
pap is teh "waste" area around the tech tree adjustable or a fixed buffer?
<Maxsimal>
Pap: I really like the extra levels to the R&D center & the launch pad. I wish all the buildings had more levels to them now :)
<Pap>
Bornholio: there is room above and below, not much room left and right, there are hard stops where you cannot scroll past
<Probus>
I see someone's been breakin' out the trig!
<Pap>
Maxsimal: that is a NathanKell design! I think the plan is to have the others expand as well
<Probus>
taniwha, its too early for trig... Oh yeah, you are in Japan aren't you.
<Maxsimal>
pap: Gotcha, ok, well, you both deserve a ton of kudos for all the updates to RP0 in your branch
<Pap>
Thank you, now we just have to figure out how to thwart your maneuvering!
<Maxsimal>
pap: I sent NK a bunch of possible fixes for some of the more excessive bits. Most of them would require some changes to KCT - does magico work closely with you guys?
<Pap>
He has a good releationship with NK, so I think they could probably be implemented
<Maxsimal>
Ah good! Yeah, I'm not trying to impune your work by bending it to my will - racing against the clock is just something fun to do in RP0, and obviously I'll take all the (non-cheat) advantages that I can.
Thomas|AWAY is now known as Thomas
<NCommander>
Evening world
<Theysen>
oi
<Maxsimal>
Hi there
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<Theysen>
is there a graphic or text based info on appropriate transfer window phase angles for the real solar system?
<Theysen>
MJ constantly screws it up when I plot a node from a parking orbit in the ecliptic to put that into KAC, I just need the phase angle and do it myself
<Theysen>
Of course, I don't want any thing specific, just the rough angles for general transfers. I'm not ingame atm and can't access anything different
<Pap>
ohhh, like that image of the stock system that shows the generalized pahse angles?
<Theysen>
yeah, I know they differ in RSS because reasons
<Theysen>
Or I just look on that one webpage I had with all Mars windows since 1960's or so
<Bornholio>
I have a cheat values i use for a target sat for general planetart transfers
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<Bornholio>
planetary inc. 23.4460378, lpe 217.426087, lan 359.996501, not perfect for anything but atleast close enough. a few dv of rcs outside soi is enough to fix things though i've had almost a 200 once for a mars transfer. mostly because my burn was too long from too low parking orbit
<lamontzzzz>
Transfer Window Planner?
lamontzzzz is now known as lamont
<Theysen>
well you know the funny thing is, I plot a node with the MJ advanced transfer, put it in KAC, it says e.g. 1y 42 days, I launch my Mars Probe and just want to create the node, I get nothing anywhere close to mars, completely fucked up positions and all. Might be just bad luck but it sucks
<Theysen>
lamont, it doesn't have inclinations in mind though regex said it'd work for general timings
<Theysen>
MJ gave me a window 10 days past the one TWP suggested for Mars, then I had a difference for a Venus transfer by 1,5 years
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<Bornholio>
pap my tech tree idea from last night was that bottom and top of the tree would have icons that clearly state the timeline hopefull with no scroll waste above/below but i don't see a way to adjust that.
<NCommander>
since I'm getting negative dV readings :)
<Theysen>
then tell your rocket how sexy it is so it starts to think positive again :)
<Theysen>
You have Cosine losses enabled?
<Bornholio>
sep motors baby -dv for the win
<NCommander>
Theysen, yeah
* NCommander
never quite understood what that option did
<NCommander>
I'm used to using KER over MJ
<Bornholio>
dv is calculated relative to orientation of the controlling core/pod
<NCommander>
But only the bottom of the LV is showing negative
<NCommander>
the other stages are correct
<Bornholio>
upside down srb's? done that with Tinytims
<NCommander>
Nope
* NCommander
is simulating it now
<NCommander>
Maybe I'll figure out where I went wrong
<NCommander>
Bornholio, oh, it might be the tiny seperation motors I'm using on the final stage to spin stabilize it after ejecting the avanonics
<Bornholio>
just a couple -dV?
<NCommander>
no, -3k
<NCommander>
Always on the bottom stage
<Bornholio>
is root stage below that
<NCommander>
No
<Bornholio>
re-reoot to the top avionics/probe
<NCommander>
Game glitched out hard when I tried to launch
<Bornholio>
lol
<NCommander>
... because my RD-103s were pointing backwards
<NCommander>
HOW DID THAT HAPPEN
<NCommander>
The game took a few seconds to obliterate my rocket
<Bornholio>
-dV never lies
<Bornholio>
unless you see tentacles
<NCommander>
Bornholio, I remember the first time I broke the speed of light in KSP. Eve rejected my mission
<NCommander>
Shot out of the solar system.
<Bornholio>
i love debris showers
* NCommander
always loves fine tuning a design by removing boosters/stages
<NCommander>
I blew a friends mind by gaining dV by deleting his unnecessary boosters
<Bornholio>
thats why i like Proc tanks
* NCommander
honestly questions how that never became stock
<Bornholio>
legos
<UmbralRaptor>
NCommander: were they on his upper stages?
<NCommander>
No, bottom
<UmbralRaptor>
Huh.
<NCommander>
They attached to the thrust plate upside down
<UmbralRaptor>
Hah!
<NCommander>
and I didn't notice until I tired to fire them
* NCommander
wasn't going to space with THAT rocket
<NCommander>
My current design is promising
<NCommander>
FOr my first RSS orbit
* UmbralRaptor
recalls deleting entire stages in early versions of KSP and gaining dV.
<NCommander>
But I'm still trying to figure out the right ascendant path and dealing with the inclination
<NCommander>
Damn it
<NCommander>
It was looking good right until test flight struct
<Bornholio>
⚡TF⚡
* NCommander
makes a few refinements and lights another one off
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<NCommander>
Interesting
* NCommander
hit orbital velocity but my aim was off
<NCommander>
7800 m/s
<Bornholio>
orbit or to eliptical?
<NCommander>
I gained speed too quickly and fired too soon
<NCommander>
So I ended up with a 5m AP
<Bornholio>
tiny bit less final pitch or rcs muscles
<NCommander>
The final stage is spin stabilized so its fire and pray
<NCommander>
Stage 2 had inbalanced RCS which didn't help
<NCommander>
and I have to wait until 60-70 km before I can fire stage 2 else the atmosphere causes me to flip out
<Bornholio>
tuck things in and reduce that drag, it will gain you more dV loss offset, shouldn't need any aero stable at 60km, but maybe some tiny fins
<NCommander>
Following surface progade, I get MECO cutout at about 50km
<Pap>
Working today NathanKell|Work!? That is why Valve is #1
<Pap>
Bornholio: you were thinking of adding those as empty techs just to have as a graphical indicator of the Era / Time Frame?
<Bornholio>
yes
<NCommander>
He's probably just at a BBQ with Gordan Freeman ;)
<Bornholio>
pap i find myself looking at the engine techs alot to see the dateline
<Pap>
Yeah, I can understand that Bornholio. For the longest time, I was trying to figure out if I could edit the background of the Tree
<Bornholio>
looked at that too but did not see a wat
<Bornholio>
way
<Pap>
Bornholio: would you think it necessary for evey year, or only for the different eras?
egg|afk|egg is now known as egg
<Bornholio>
each "Era" or decade i think, each year, minor era also nice but not a ton of extra benefit
<Pap>
Yep, that is something that I can look at. Also, with the larger size icons we can use, they can be more detailed as well
<Bornholio>
the yearly ones are super easy to make
<Bornholio>
what size can i make icons, i noticed some 100x100 thought i could only do 64x64
<Pap>
I have started making all the icons at 100x100, but they will automatically shrink down to the correct size in the tree
<Bornholio>
do they keep a little bit better resolution?
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<Wrecker>
Anyone know what could be causing control pods to not show up?
<Wrecker>
I should clarify, I mean in the editor and research center in career mode. Its as if the game decided they don't exist
<NCommander>
Damn
* NCommander
ended with a Pe of -10km
born|afk is now known as Bornholio
<Bornholio>
wrecker can you post a log
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: When did you light your upper(s) and what was the apogee at that time?
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: : Yes, and I'll be working some of tomorrow as well. Due to how diverse our company is we don't actually have universal/obligatory holidays, you just take what holidays you observe under general paid time off
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, too soon, probably about 200-300k, I lit it off at 60k. I think I need to just coast closer to Ap after MECO. I've got very high TWR in the upper stage, and 6500 m/s there
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: How long is your burn?
<NCommander>
2 minutes, 20 seconds
<NathanKell|WORK>
you need to start burning when time to apogee is at 1min 10s then
<NCommander>
In two stages, but I don't have a kick motor on the final one, they're meant to be fired rapid succession
<NathanKell|WORK>
and you probably need to pitch at -1 degrees, too
<NCommander>
Yeah, I did that on the last one which nearly did it
<NCommander>
This rocket can get into orbit, I just need to learn how to fly it
<NathanKell|WORK>
so align to orbit prograde for heading, and -1 for pitch, spin up, and fire 1min 10s before apogee. Or perhaps fire only 40s before apogee and stay level, so you'll get some up-velocity after apogee to kill your sink rate
<NathanKell|WORK>
uh, quick background question on theory
<NCommander>
I've got active control right up until the last minute
<NathanKell|WORK>
how much do you know about insertion?
<Pap>
Bornholio: I actually don't know if they keep better resolution, I just found them overall easier to work with
<NathanKell|WORK>
i.e. do you get the 'why' for all of this or should I run a quick primer? :)
Pap is now known as Pap|SemiAFK
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I think I understand it. I at least understand the math involved here, but I was reading from ferram4's guide that suggested I should more or less burn straight up until final stage cutoff, but I realized on this go around, I'm closer to the Juno which had a long coast period before lighting off a stage
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, that being said, if you have the time, I'd appreicate the explination
<NathanKell|WORK>
Sure thing :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
So basically, you (from playing KSP) know apogee and perigee. However, many players don't quite get what that entails
<NathanKell|WORK>
Those two points are, by definition, when your vertical velocity is zero.
<NathanKell|WORK>
If your vertical velocity is not zero, you are not at one of them.
<NathanKell|WORK>
That means that if you wish to insert near perigee, your vertical velocity must be near zero.
<NathanKell|WORK>
If your vertical velocity is nonzero as you approach orbital velocity, the higher it is the further behind you (and below you) your perigee will be
<NathanKell|WORK>
So if you hit oribt at, say, 100m/s up, your perigee will be *way* below you
<NathanKell|WORK>
Further, by the same token, your perigee can never be higher than your insertion point (you must be on your orbit, by definition), and that (equal to current height) is true only at zero vertical velocity
<NathanKell|WORK>
So that's why you need to try to keep vertical velocity near zero during kick
<NCommander>
Right that actually is in line with my understanding. It's mostly just trying to apply it in practice. I'm using my RCS to line my self up for the upper stage iginition and coasting now
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah, cool!
<NathanKell|WORK>
Just going over it because in KSP people can play for years without that understanding, and then end up with huge apogees in RSS/RO and not know why :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Given that your stages have to be fired together, even though you have control during part of the burn, you still need to treat it as one giant kick maneuver
<NathanKell|WORK>
because you need to be 30s to apogee at light of the second of the two stages, and the best way to ensure that is to start burning the first of the two 1min30s before apogee :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
(well, probably more like 1min20s, since the prograde kick will 'stretch' out time to apogee a bit)
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<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, yeah, I got why my Ap went so nuts, what I was concerned able was dV losses from slowing down on the way up
<NathanKell|WORK>
Sadly unavoidable
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I also overestimated host much I lost. I cooked this one off a bit late
<NathanKell|WORK>
That's why this approach takes as much delta V to orbit as, say, a 10 minute upper does
* NCommander
doesn't understand what causes his RCS thrusts to disable themselves until I stage
<NathanKell|WORK>
they have stage icons
<NathanKell|WORK>
put them in the stage you want them active in
<CobaltWolf>
So
<NathanKell|WORK>
they start disabled, until you stage
<NCommander>
I ended up a -10x2M orbit ... already past AP on my way down
<NCommander>
If I managed to fire when I meant though, I think I would have gotten orbit
<NathanKell|WORK>
\o/
<NathanKell|WORK>
so close! :)
<NCommander>
Yeah, I meant to light it at 40s
<NCommander>
I fired at 20 because of RCS problems
<NCommander>
(40 to AP)
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<blowfish>
CKAN failed to index the most recent DRE because the zip doesn't contain a DeadlyReentry directory, just the DLL
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<blowfish>
!tell Starwaster* CKAN failed to index the most recent DRE because the zip doesn't contain a DeadlyReentry directory, just the DLL. Not sure if that was intentional or not.
<Qboid>
blowfish: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Bornholio>
is there a way to get a small amount of avionics say <.25t early?
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<NCommander>
ugh I hate when real life strikes
<Raidernick>
Sarbian, did you see the issue I made about smokescreen?
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<NCommander>
damn it
* NCommander
ended up in 400x-172
<NCommander>
I think I need a bit more dV :/
<Bornholio>
whats your target
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yikes, yes, you do then :(
<NCommander>
orbit
<NCommander>
200x200 at minimium
<Bornholio>
looks like a fine orbit
<Bornholio>
ah
<NCommander>
THe rocket has 9500 dV at the pad
<Bornholio>
fine
<NCommander>
But I'm likely loosing too much on the coast
<Bornholio>
have you checked your losses with mj
<NCommander>
Bornholio, I'm more or less right down the middle to MECO. What kills me is I need to coast to AP
<Bornholio>
what is you sat weight now
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: what is your Ap at booster cutoff?
<NCommander>
200-ish
<NathanKell|WORK>
ok
<NathanKell|WORK>
You can try a flatter profile as long as you still get to 200
<NathanKell|WORK>
but you might just not have enough oomph
<NCommander>
Bornholio, 8 tons.
<NathanKell|WORK>
you can try swapping your upper engines to XASRs instead of AJ10-27s?
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I'm debating just spin stablizing the entire upper stage and dumping the avionics entirely after I light the solid for ulliage
<NCommander>
That MIGHT be enough to lighten the load
<Maxsimal>
Pap: What unlocks the generic satellite contracts in your new tree?
<NathanKell>
That assuredly will
<NathanKell>
Early avionics are super heavy
<NCommander>
Brought the total DV to 97k
* NCommander
is seeing what else he can tweak to get it a bit higher
B787_Work is now known as B787_300
<NCommander>
Switching to two sep motors to make it spin brought me to 10k dV total
<NCommander>
That should do it
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Actually, mind if you I ask you? With pap's new tree, I no longer see the (tweaked) generic satellite contracts that my 1.1.3 game used to generate? Are those gone?
<NathanKell>
Yes
<NathanKell>
Replaced by Pap's
<Maxsimal>
Hrmm ok well which are those? The weather satellite contracts?
<NathanKell>
Weather and comm
<NathanKell>
Keep flying every one you have and more advanced ones unlock
<Maxsimal>
Gotcha. Kind of a shame to lose the lunar and beyond satellite contracts - I guess those are still in development?
<NathanKell>
Yes, I believe so
<Bornholio>
nathan am i missing some way to make the proc avionics do smaller tonnages?
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<NathanKell>
Sorry missed everything since :32
<ferram4>
<Bornholio> nathan am i missing some way to make the proc avionics do smaller tonnages?
<ferram4>
That is it.
<NCommander>
NathanKell, well ... 3 Mm by 93
<NCommander>
Not exactly what I wanted, but at least I know I just need to aim better
<Bornholio>
pitch control!
<NCommander>
Spin stabilization is fun
<NathanKell>
Bornholio sorry I haven't tried much with them. I'm sure there is, ask leudaimon?
<NathanKell>
Thanks ferram!
<NCommander>
NathanKell, BTW, what heading should I be flying for least about of dV loss from KSC? I assume 90 since I don't actually care about the inclination but ...
<NathanKell>
90
<regex>
NathanKell, where's the R-7 video?
<regex>
need a replay
<NathanKell>
Regex it's on twitch past broadcasts
<NathanKell>
Probably 4 or so ago?
<NathanKell>
But I've been flying it ever since, so anything recent will do
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<regex>
Ah, you stopped posting to Youtube so I don't see your stuff anymore.
<regex>
Does Twitch have a phone app? Suppose I should check. then I can give you shit in real time
<NathanKell>
It does yeah :D
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* NCommander
just had an honest to god kernel panic :(
<NathanKell>
:(
<Pap|SemiAFK>
Bornholio: the procedural avioincs are locked to certain minimums
<Pap|SemiAFK>
Boosters can never be lower than 15t and Upper Stage can never be lower than 3 tons
<Bornholio>
ah, bummer
<Bornholio>
just need a tiny bit of avionics for sats
<Pap|SemiAFK>
Yeah, I don't remember when they unlock
<Bornholio>
asked for a 240x660km from lamont's PEG got a 240x661km :) god damn smooth, even handled the solids just fine
<Bornholio>
and 32dV left in the stage
<Pap|SemiAFK>
WOW
<regex>
NathanKell, nice, looks just about right.
<regex>
Now that I think about it I don't think I've flown an R-7 with realistic plumes...
<NCommander>
... god damn it
<NCommander>
I can't start up RO
<NCommander>
KSP is aborting on startup
<Pap|SemiAFK>
^^ What did you break?
<regex>
Check the log
<NCommander>
Pap|SemiAFK, regex: no relevant errors. Console is aborted
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: Ah, dang. Try it sans everything but Squad in there, make sure reguklar KSP starts?
<Pap|SemiAFK>
NCommander: what changes did you make since last time you loaded?
<NCommander>
I accidently was loading the 32-bit version
<NCommander>
I need sleep
<NCommander>
:(
<NathanKell|WORK>
=(
<Pap|SemiAFK>
That'll do it!
<Bornholio>
Hi NCommander go get some sleep or its substitute coffee
<NCommander>
I will as soon as I'm off the phone
Thomas is now known as Thomas|AWAY
<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, "bully" is such a... strong term. I prefer, "inform you of your inexcusable errors" :P
<NathanKell|WORK>
"The beatings will continue until Molniya improves"
<NathanKell|WORK>
also ferram4 I didn't think there were excusable ones :P
<ferram4>
Well, look. You _should_ have had the frosty sections of LOX tanks colored differently than the plain sections with the kerosene, but that's a lot of work to get right.
<Bornholio>
sounds like a cool texture
<ferram4>
Also, setting up the solids + coast RCS + structural support that can decouple for Block E structure is a pain, so no need to really do all of that.
<ferram4>
Same with the ox venting on the upper stage that's used to push it away from the block E.
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<regex>
Also, are those three-section tanks?
<regex>
IIRC there's a cone, a truncated cone, and then a cylinder
<regex>
I'll have to get a better look, can't pan a video. :P
<ferram4>
For the boosters?
<NathanKell|WORK>
the boosters are only 2 cones, sorry
<regex>
Noppe, you're right
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah I assumed you were and was apologizing :D
<regex>
I had to look at the reference I had again, I haven't built one in a while.
<regex>
But getting the core right and fitting the boosters to it are key to making it look right. It's so iconic that even slightly wrong looks horribly wrong.
<regex>
Your's looks right
<regex>
Yours
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<ferram4>
I'm gonna try building something and see if I can make PEG do cool stuff.
<ferram4>
And give it some not quite correct situations and see how it handles things. For the giggles.
<regex>
What's "PEG"?
<regex>
I've seen that thrown around here
<ferram4>
Powered Explicit Guidance
<Bornholio>
his guidance routine for MJ, centaur style
<ferram4>
Short answer: it flies your rocket to orbit to insert into the orbit you set in without cutting off the engines and constantly correcting based on stage performance.
<Ezko_>
sounds cool
<regex>
Oh sweet.
<ferram4>
However, the current dev version that lamont has only works for one upper stage (with open loop control for the booster stage).
<ferram4>
But I'm gonna see what happens if I decide to make it do stupid things.
<lamont>
yeah its pretty fun to do that
<blowfish>
Could always try something like Delta IV with an 18 minute second stage >:)
<ferram4>
How close do you think we are to a "this is ready for multistage testing, everything might blow up?" kinda state?
<blowfish>
although in principal I see no reason why PEG wouldn't converge on the second stage there, assuming you loft high enough
<ferram4>
Oh, it certainly should.
<Bornholio>
handled boosters, fairing sep, sep motors parachutes and other junk, but two stage to orbit is were its at now
<ferram4>
Although in practice it should also turn on for the core stage after a certain amount of time.
<NathanKell|WORK>
regex: to be clear, sustainers count for PEG
<blowfish>
might be a more interesting case for multistage when that's working
<NathanKell|WORK>
indeed
<Bornholio>
can't wait to toss atlas mercury with it
<NathanKell|WORK>
Works fine
<NathanKell|WORK>
that was lamont's test case IIRC
<NathanKell|WORK>
especially because the pitch program for that is known
<regex>
Oh man, Atlas was a pain, I'm still figuing out when to drop the boosters...
<regex>
On mine it seems to be about 20 seconds from empty tank.
<blowfish>
does that give you about rated burn time on the boosters?
<Bornholio>
are you using the lr-105 with extra kerolox in it?
<lamont>
i’m actually using a 2xAtlas with 1.6-ish liftoff TWR
<regex>
Yeah, my Atlas has a huge SL TWR.
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<lamont>
PEG is going to have issues with proper stage-and-a-half designs since if you’re manually staging it won’t be getting the correct information from MJ about stage burntimes
<regex>
and it's actually less than rated burn time for the boosters because they burn beyond empty tank.
<soundnfury>
lamont: yeah, that's why I had to do the json files for konrad
<soundnfury>
you have to tell your guidance system what's going on with all these parallel stages and shared tanks and shit
<lamont>
if some time was put into fixing autostaging with MJ and you could feed it programmed stage separation times that would be fixable
<soundnfury>
(especially if you're using the LR79 rather than '89, like I often do, so the mixture ratios don't match ;)
<lamont>
but yeah, Mj has no idea when you’re gona whack spacebar
<lamont>
MJs fuel flow simulation will handle that fine
<soundnfury>
sure. It's just for me that that involves an extra 30 seconds with a calculator ;)
<blowfish>
regex: you should name all your upper stages after toiletries
<Bornholio>
that was real world named the electric toothbrush
<Bornholio>
among the other things it was named
<regex>
lol
<regex>
Upper stage is Able from my Thor-Able rocket.
<regex>
Just like RL, only this one actually made it to orbit
<regex>
(Atlas Able was shit IRL)
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<CobaltWolf>
huh. Have any other screens?
<CobaltWolf>
cus it goes spiral > black > white
<CobaltWolf>
and I can't imagine the spiral is the interstage, that'd be massive
<regex>
Yeah, hang on
<CobaltWolf>
Atlas Able and Delta D are both kind of hilarious, since they didn't have any bigger upper stages so they just put overpowered first stages on (Atlas, or Thor with 3 Castors)
<regex>
Well Delta obviously worked better than Atlas Able, lol
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* NCommander
unplugs his phone
<NCommander>
I am done for the day, I'm going to play KSP until my final call w/ my boss then sleep
<regex>
CobaltWolf so that Ableis mostly like the actual one only it doesn't have a spin table (for reasons) and instead uses two SRMs on the Altair to spin the Altair. Altair and the spin motor are under the interstage which extends to the payload base. The spiral texture is the actual Able stage.
<regex>
When it stages there are retro motors on Able, the Altair, and the spin motors, plus decoupling, all at once.
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<CobaltWolf>
noice
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<Maxsimal>
Sorry for bouncing in and out, having some issues with my router I believe
<NCommander>
!
* NCommander
made orbit
<NCommander>
186 by 3000k
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<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: The variance in reward between first artificial satellite (>300k) and several of the subsequent satellite contracts of <20k, while possibly historic for the fact that first satellite was more important, does mean it feels like progress is weirdly spiky for this phase of the game.
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<Bornholio>
its the investment needed, bigger pad and other infrastructure, that onece you buy them for that first is not needed over again
<NCommander>
Was I not supposed to make orbit with just a L2 launch pad?
<CobaltWolf>
aren't there only 3 levels?
<Bornholio>
7
<Maxsimal>
NCommander: I'm about to try to make orbit with 1 tech node and the L1 20 ton pad :P
<NCommander>
Well this is my first RO save :P
<Bornholio>
actually the expectation is mission and tracking upgrades at minimum, yes you can do without but, pad and the other two need to be upgraded to match reasonable expectatiosn at that oint
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: \o/ \o/
<Maxsimal>
NCommander: understandable - but I think the 60 ton pad is not at all unreasonable to make orbit with, even if Sputnik was launched on an R7 instead.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: That is the distinction between milestones and regular contracts
<NathanKell|WORK>
Milestones give you the money to upgrade facilities, unlock parts, and design and test LVs. Regular contracts put that stuff to use.
* NCommander
accidently staged too soon and wrecked it
<NCommander>
ugh
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: :((((
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: For context, two of the first 3 LVs to make orbit were under 30 tonnes (one was 10 tonnes!)
<xShadowx>
atleast it was user error and not Agathorned :P
<NathanKell|WORK>
And had the Soviets wanted, they could have put some kick motor on an R-5 and done orbit with that, for ~30t as well
<CobaltWolf>
ah
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, yeah but Maxsimal is just doing the first tech node
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: You will not, I think, find it an easy time. Which node did you unlock?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: Also, really milestones should happen via the admin building probably, as Programs.
* NCommander
builds a second launcher since I was in HC mode
<NathanKell|WORK>
If memory serves you don't get attitude jets in the start node. And you really, really need them for any kind of early LV.
<ferram4>
I am going to challenge PEG with a 0.3 TWR 2nd stage on top of a 4.5 km/s 1st stage.
<ferram4>
Let's see what happens.
<NathanKell|WORK>
should be fine
<NathanKell|WORK>
assuming you get your pitch program right
<ferram4>
Assuming
<NathanKell|WORK>
so something like 8 minute burn on the upper?
<NathanKell|WORK>
(going to LEO)
<regex>
Oh hey, we can finally launch Ariane V!
<Theysen_>
^^^^^^^^^^
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Post-war Rocketry testing. For the A9 and Xasr. Anyway, going to go try it now :)
<Theysen_>
Any tips on how to setup the booster pitch program other than be at 30° at the end for most hydroloxes?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: do attitude jets come from that too?
<NathanKell|WORK>
I thought they came from postwar avionics or something
<NCommander>
Final engine stage is lit
* NCommander
prays I make orbit this time
* NathanKell|WORK
crosses eye^H^H^Hfingers
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: I had attitude jets from start. My build from Pap's trees is perhaps 4 days out of date if you just removed them though.
<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, no, it's a 15min burn, it looks like
<NathanKell|WORK>
ferram4: Ah, for 4.9km/s probably
<ferram4>
PEG appears to be saying, "WTF is this ferram, seriously, WTF is this?"
<NathanKell|WORK>
Then you probably want an apogee of about 300 on booster burnout
<NathanKell|WORK>
and aim for 185
<NCommander>
Fell short
<ferram4>
I had that. ANd was aiming for 200
<NCommander>
2 million/122
<ferram4>
I think I need higher
<NCommander>
Damn it
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: My postware avionics only has two parts - proc batteries and aerobee sms-rt6 despin module
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: so do you have attitude jets? Or how are you planning to align for kick?
<NCommander>
damn
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: :\
<NCommander>
I'm debating if I want to take this or revert and try it again
<Maxsimal>
Maxismal: I have attitude jets, they're unlocked in start.
<Maxsimal>
Oops
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: I guess boost a little higher then
<NCommander>
rockets are surprisingly cheap in RO
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I was just slightly off target
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: I have attitude jets, they're unlocked in start.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: Ah. I think we need to push them up a node then :)
<Bornholio>
that thousands of 1965 dollars
<NCommander>
My LV is about 4k, and I have 210 even after ordering a L3 launchpad
<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, also, it's basically Saturn I now. But with 4 RL-10-A3s on the upper instead of 6, and 4 E-1s on the lower instead of 8 H-1s.
<Bornholio>
nitrogen thrusters are so weak though
* NCommander
is worried money might become a grind
<NathanKell|WORK>
ferram4: Yeah
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: Milestones ftw
<NCommander>
Though cheating in more money is the one thing I never felt guilty about in KSP
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Yeah that'd be reasonable, that'd also make my suborbital shenanigans with the manned missions dangerous, if not impossible.
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: Money is really not a grind in RP-0 :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: Yeah
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, yeah, I'll take this and launch another one
<NCommander>
I'll still get a bunch of science from the once around orbit
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: You should have tons of money from First Orbital, since you're doing it so low tech
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: Then if you have those + jets you are building exactly the same LV I used in my TTT :)
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Likely so! Btw why is your TTT not on youtube? I can't catch much of your streams usually, timezones.
<NathanKell|WORK>
It's mostly talking smack with chat and testing stuff, vs the others which are more video-y
<NathanKell|WORK>
so I hadn't been exporting
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Ah ok. Well anywhere, here goes nothing, should be fine as long as I don't get agathorned
<Bornholio>
⚡TF⚡
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, what I'll do is fly a much steeper ascent with the main stage. and try to aim for a 300k AP
<NCommander>
That should help in me coming short
<NathanKell|WORK>
yep!
<Bornholio>
is there a way to stop KAC from messing with warping speeds
<Bornholio>
is that "Use instant warp transitions"?
<regex>
Do people play with Principia here? How many flights do you usually have before timewarping stutters like mad?
<acharles>
Hi
<NCommander>
regex, I thought about running it, but the idea of having to micromanage a comm network in GEO just made go "NOPE"
<regex>
Oh please
<regex>
I have yet to have a sat burn up and I should have at least three gone by now
<regex>
That's not implemented yet
<NCommander>
regex, no, it's keeping the orbits aligned and syncrhonized
<regex>
Why do you need a comm network in the first place, you should have tons of ground stations.
<soundnfury>
regex: life is too short for eggs
<regex>
So I'm the only one?
<regex>
welp.
<regex>
#egg4lyfe
<Maxsimal>
Will have to launch that again, got a 1.644kkm by 122km orbit - just shy.
<NCommander>
Maxsimal, yeah, I'm playing that game right now too :)
<lamont>
that’s way deep into the fuelflowsimulation stuff and i seem to recall something about those changes in 1.2, but i’ve long forgotten any details… you explained it months ago somewhere…
<lamont>
i’m pretty sure you said the solution for stock was to add a fuel line to force mehjeb to recognize which direction the fuel was going — but that doesn’t really explain why it works in the VAB...
<Sarbian>
The current sim relies a lot on stock code so it should be easier to track down. If the problem is on my side.
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: \o/ \o/
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I gave myself a free revert on this because this is supposed to be fun, but I feel so vinciated since Test Flight tried and I still managed to put the sucker into orbit
<NathanKell|WORK>
:)
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, what do I need approximately to put something in a polar orbit? I'm looking at the new contracts
<NathanKell|WORK>
Indeed, spin stabilization is GR8
<soundnfury>
Vinciated? Does that mean you're Leonardo? ;)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Or the ESC-B
<Theysen_>
2nd staging a LR105 above a quad stack of LR79 below it almost feels like cheating..
<soundnfury>
NCommander: from the cape, iirc about 400m/s more (?)
* NCommander
is going to have to range safety some of his failures
<NathanKell|WORK>
yep, take whatever your orbital velocity is on the pad and add about 50m/s extra to account for higher gravity losses, and that's the penalty for going due north
<soundnfury>
Theysen_: yes, it does. That's why I have my "no airlighting LR105s" patch to prevent it
<NathanKell|WORK>
If you want 90 inclination it's a bit worse because you need to kill that horizontal velocity too
<Theysen_>
soundnfury, absolutely oO
<Maxsimal>
Whoohoo! 2.5kkm x 170 - pretty much perfect trajectory on that kick stage (launching near the equator helps too :P )
<NCommander>
Probably easiest to upgrade and launch from one of the nortern sites
<Maxsimal>
Drag losses in MJ don't seem to be anywhere close to correct
<NCommander>
Maxsimal, RO/TF - basic orbits make you feel like a badss :)
<Qboid>
[#907] title: Issue with Asparagus-ized (Asparagized?) fuel flow through decouplers messing up Delta-V stats after launch | Seem to happen post KSP 1.2 where the decouplers now act like fuel lines, with the fuel flow priority settings controlling which direction the fuel flows.... | https://github.com/MuMech/MechJeb2/issues/907
<NCommander>
Maxsimal, real life didn't have MJ in 1951 :)
<Maxsimal>
Ncommander: Yeah - plus I was manually flying that cause MJ was unstable on ascent.
<Theysen_>
aim, pray,fire
<NCommander>
Theysen_, that's how spin stablized stages work.
* NCommander
used two seperation motors to spin my stage post seperation from the LV
<NCommander>
Range safety blows up the vechile, right?
* NCommander
needs to erase his failures :)
<Theysen_>
yup
<Theysen_>
handy to not having to wait for a sounding rocket to fall down
<NCommander>
I'm used to grim reaping them from the tracking staiton
* NCommander
also knocked off a SR contract with his first orbit
<Theysen_>
cheater
<NathanKell|WORK>
lamont: Except the issue is the reverse of that
<NathanKell|WORK>
lamont: My decouplers are not crossfeeding but MJ thinks they are
<soundnfury>
NCommander: that's normal, we all do that :)
<NCommander>
Theysen_, technically speaking, it's a sounding rocket. It just didn't come back down for a few months
* NCommander
has a cool 300k, the rep bar is at 55%
<NCommander>
nice
<Theysen_>
it isn't :P
<NCommander>
Admin building for extra funds is fun
* NCommander
notes admin is so under appreicated in stock
<soundnfury>
NCommander: afaik strategies officially Haven't Been Balanced in RO
<lamont>
NK: uhm, weird
<soundnfury>
so I'm not sure whether using them is considered cheaty
<lamont>
yeah i was wondering why you were cheating with R7s that did crossfeed...
<NCommander>
soundnfury, ... now he tells me :P
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander, Maxsimal your feedback on what to do for the admin building would be most welcome. I have never used it in my life and therefore don't know how to configure it for RP-0.
<NCommander>
soundnfury, eh, honestly, I'm not how much it can debalance it though. strategies are precentage increases/decreases
<Theysen_>
fck me, I read on Syncom 1 for first GEO orbit and forgot it only went GSO, now i lack 400m/s of delta v..
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I use it in stock in hardcore because its fairly useful for breaking the grind
* soundnfury
shrugs
<egg>
regex: ow, there's nobody else playing principia? :-\
<NathanKell|WORK>
egg: Next restart I will be thanks to the new release :)
<egg>
NCommander: ... but what's with the GEO/KEO obsession in KSP circles, you're not serving TV to bolted parabolae damn it
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, what's probably worth doing is taking the Stragia mod though and modifying it. That allows you to set space program goals and get a lot of rewards for it, as well as focuses
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Yeah, one of our medium-term todos is to make Programs (like Brian wanted to for KSP itself) and harness Strategia to do it
<Qboid>
[#680] title: Current To-Do List | I have started a to-do list of things that I know need to be completed, I was going to keep this locally, but it doesn't make any sense to do that.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/680
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: yay! (warning, we apparently broke EVA a bit, principia#1452)
<Qboid>
[#1452] title: Kerbals on EVA spawn several meters away from the vessel | Since Cauchy, kerbals on EVA from a vessel in orbit spawn several meters away from the vessel. Doesn't happen when EVA-ing on ground or in atmosphere. | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1452
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: I think it may be as part of fixing your bug >_>
<NCommander>
egg, it's fairly useful for coverage at the poles in stock. Just stick a single comsat directly over the KSC and done.
<NathanKell|WORK>
egg: Heh
<NCommander>
egg, also if you want far side of the mun/minnus coverage. Granted, RL that doesn't work due to lunar frozen orbit problems.
<egg>
for polar regions? what's the need for synchronicity there
* egg
stabs NCommander with UmbralRaptor's claws
<NCommander>
why did I get stabbed?
<NCommander>
>.>
<UmbralRaptor>
stabbity?
<egg>
mostly to attract UmbralRaptor's attention
<egg>
I like to get our resident raptor-astronomer in these orbital mechanics discussions, he knows more
<NCommander>
I am curious if prinicpia would actually cause the moon in RO to minic the behaviors of RL frozen orbits.
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: context: why GEO
<UmbralRaptor>
Uh, if you have defacto 2-axis tracking, something like a molniya or tundra orbit might be more useful?
<egg>
that, too
<UmbralRaptor>
NCommander: only if it includes masscons.
<egg>
no masscons (yet?)
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: re. nomlyia, yes, esp. with principia having J2
<UmbralRaptor>
More useful as in compared with GEO.
<egg>
nomlyia? omnomnomlyia
<regex>
egg "but what's with the GEO/KEO obsession in KSP circles, you're not serving TV to bolted parabolae damn it" - it's because RT2 created a set of unrealistic expectations about how communications actually work.
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: nomal-myia
* egg
stabs RT2 with dipole antenna
<NCommander>
egg, as for principia, honestly, I'd be glad to use if it I could just station keep and put something and have it stay where it was as long as it had reaction thrust
<UmbralRaptor>
Molniya sats served TV IIRC.
<Theysen_>
^ yes
<NCommander>
egg, vertical or horizontal alignment? :)
* NCommander
might be a ham radio operator
<egg>
NCommander: again, most of the time you don't need to do such things, use a Молния orbit
<regex>
For relays, I've found all I really need is a handful of "launch sats" in LEO for full coverrage. GEO isn't needed at all.
<NCommander>
egg, it's also unrealistic to have my satelites drifting all over the place.
* soundnfury
gives NCommander a left circular polarised signal
<egg>
NCommander: vertical, with ground plane (ground plane used as a hilt)
<NCommander>
egg, well, I mean technically speaking, we could control our probes with EME
<NCommander>
... *wonders if that has actually been done*
<UmbralRaptor>
Highly eccentric orbits let a satellite spend disproportionately more time over one area. So should be less suceptible to station keeping requirements.
<UmbralRaptor>
EME?
<egg>
NCommander: again, what UmbralRaptor says
<soundnfury>
NCommander: meteor scatter! "yeah, there's a 65% chance that we successfully told the probe to make a burn."
<NCommander>
Earth-moon-earth radio communication
<egg>
Молния is really good, and won't drift in argument
<NCommander>
UmbralRaptor, you can use the moon to reflect radio signals back getting around line of sight with VHF and UHF communications
<UmbralRaptor>
Hrm. Not sure.
<Raidernick>
thanks Sarbian it works
<soundnfury>
NCommander: if you send some HF above the MUF, it could get refracted by the F layer (but not reflected) and reach a probe that's considerably over the horizon
<NCommander>
UmbralRaptor, I know the military developed technology to get a signal bounce off astroids.
<NCommander>
Honestly, prior to becoming a ham, if one would have asked me: what's harder: orbital mechanics or radio propogation, I would have said the former
<NCommander>
Having played KSP now for three years ... the later.
<egg>
anyway, back to the subject at hand, if GEO drift is too much of an issue (though you can plan ahead for it, you have the ECEF frame, principia has nice plots), Молния FTW
<egg>
the ECEF frame should allow you to compensate for long-term drift for a while with infrequent corrections though
<NCommander>
egg, it mostly comes down to that I don't really want to fiddle with things. I *hate* micromanaging things that should be automatable.
* NCommander
also notes his potato of a PC would likely self-destruct
<regex>
Now that's moreof a concern if you ask me
<regex>
Even my i5 has troubles with multiple craft and timewarping.
<NCommander>
I mean, right now, I could install it, and simply hyperedit Sputnik III elsewhere
<NCommander>
regex, I've got an i7-3770OK
<NCommander>
But it's first gen
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<regex>
Okay, well, "potato" to me is my old Core2 Duo what still runs Skyrim.
<regex>
barely
<NCommander>
TBH, it's mostly my GPU that's a potato. It was a low range card to begin with
<egg>
NCommander: then see how long you can keep a GEO sat in an acceptable place without correction (you can foresee that with the ECEF plots), otherwise use Молния? At this point it might be useful to actually try it out to gauge that rather than guess the amount of fiddling
<egg>
we're not GPU-heavy
<egg>
CPU and memory, otoh...
<egg>
omnomnomnomnom
* NCommander
has 32 GiB of RAM
<egg>
that should be fine
<NCommander>
egg, if I drop Principia in, should I assume my current probe will self-destruct?
* NCommander
only has the one flight
<NathanKell>
Should be fine
<egg>
it won't self-destruct, depending on its orbit it may end up in a creative place
<egg>
low orbits should be fine
<egg>
eggscentric/interplanetary stuff... grab some popcorn perhaps
* NCommander
sighs
<NCommander>
egg, what do I need to build canary?
* NCommander
is on Linux x86_64
<egg>
what canary
* UmbralRaptor
recalls running ou of RAM (and then cache) while trying to run some Principia tests.
<NCommander>
(gentoo specifically)
<NCommander>
egg, isn't that the main branch?
<egg>
I don't think we've done anything user-impacting since Cauchy, so you can just use Cauchy
<egg>
(we don't have diapsids, but we have dead mathematicians)
<egg>
we were away for a week right after the release of Cauchy, so things are pretty much still at Cauchy
* NCommander
pulls the git tree
<egg>
there are pre-built binaries if you don't want to go through that particular hell
<NCommander>
egg, I develop operating systems for a living. aside from clang, I have everything alrady installed
<egg>
ah, ok :-)
<NCommander>
egg, I'm also on Gentoo which means Ubuntu C++ code tends to explode
<NCommander>
egg, gettext, QString, Windows Message Compiler, or my favorite, the home brew i18n that doesn't understand right-to-left
* egg
pokes UmbralRaptor with Лидов–古在
<egg>
NCommander: CLDR/ICU FTW
* soundnfury
maintains that i18n is unnecessary in the glorious 21st Century
* NCommander
speaks english, and is conversational in spanish
<soundnfury>
because seriously, English is the world's lingua franca now
<NCommander>
English goes around, beats up other languages, and steals their grammar
<soundnfury>
NCommander: itym, English mugs other languages in dark alleyways and rifles through their pockets for loose vocabulary.
<NCommander>
soundnfury, need to ask, were you at plumbers?
<NCommander>
If you are a kernel hacker, curious if I met you in RL
<NathanKell|WORK>
Sudden Nicoll Appearance
<soundnfury>
NCommander: nope. Only conf I've been too is netdev, in sevilla and montreal
<NCommander>
egg, clang is cooking, I'll build principa after that. Then I can bitch in realtime about bugs :)
<NCommander>
soundnfury, ah, I worked at Canonical for several years
<NCommander>
also, driving in Montreal makes me cry :/
* egg
stabs soundnfury with a french accent
<soundnfury>
egg: whoops sorry, montréal (is that the right one?)
* NCommander
got to watch a frenchman and a french-canadian argue about who spoke proper french.
<NCommander>
It was glorious
<NathanKell|WORK>
an accent grave, perhaps?
<soundnfury>
(or is it rèal?)
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I think that's a grave pun :)
* egg
throws up at the sight of "rèal"
<NathanKell|WORK>
It's actually ecuit, yeah
<NathanKell|WORK>
(IIRC that's the spelling? I only ever say 'accent ecuit', not spell it >.> )
<egg>
clearly the accent aigu is better for stabbing
<NathanKell|WORK>
Hah, very wrong on the spelling
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: add an accent to your spelling, and albeit not a word I'd interpret it as de-cooked :-p
<NathanKell|WORK>
I'm at work, so this is webchat and shortcuts don't work :(
<NathanKell|WORK>
at home I would have.
* UmbralRaptor
hands egg an épée.
<NCommander>
pienso esta converasion es voy a ser malo ...
<NCommander>
muy malo
<NathanKell|WORK>
Doesn't the MOTD still talk about ksplinguistics?
<egg>
non, on s'amuse bien
<NCommander>
soy hablo espanol y ingles, no fracias :P
<egg>
il y a un message du jour? ou bien c'est juste moi
<NathanKell|WORK>
oh crap no we have a proper OP now
<NathanKell|WORK>
it was only ever an eggsplat
<NathanKell|WORK>
EGG!
<UmbralRaptor>
motd is server based, so no.
<NathanKell|WORK>
YOU HAVEN'T GREETED
<NathanKell|WORK>
That's why
<egg>
aaaaah
<UmbralRaptor>
Oh, hey. I'm still /topic'd.
<egg>
1 min
UmbralRaptor is now known as HuntingRaptor
<NCommander>
Ahora nosotros un nuevo server de IRC donde tenemos MOTD manejo :)
<soundnfury>
hauld yer wheesht, bluidy sassenachs, there's but ane sair braw leid
<egg>
o/ NCommander, welcome to ISS telemetry dumps, linguistics, modernist cooking, MOCKINGFORTRAN, marxist jokes, complaining about aerodynamics, lingistics, messy PDEs, algebraic structures, general bitterness, and occasionally RO
<soundnfury>
(obwohl einander legt nicht fern dahinter)
<egg>
[I used to greet everyone that way, it's been a while]
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yeah, Felger's not been here in so long, we really lack for telemetry dumps.
<NCommander>
Pero <<Kerbal Space Program>> crea de Mexicianos?
<egg>
arguably some of these subjects now live mostly in #kspacademia
* NCommander
ducks
<NCommander>
*hard*
<NCommander>
I wait for the day that someone who grew up playing RO goes and joins NASA
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: It was created by a Brazilian, but don't let <<The Founders>> hear you say that >.>
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: yeah; he still eggsists on hangouts, not so much around here
<NathanKell|WORK>
Man, Felipe was pissed when they called themselves "The Founders" >.>
<NathanKell|WORK>
egg: Ah, man, I should drop him a line
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I knew Squad was Mexican, I though Felipe was too. I wasn't super involved w/ the community until 1.x
<NathanKell|WORK>
Brazilian, living in Mexico
<NCommander>
huh
* NCommander
actually has a Mexican residente visa in his passport
<NCommander>
Was going to move there
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: are you using two LESS-THAN SIGNs instead of LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK? :-p
<NCommander>
Family shit happened though
<NathanKell|WORK>
Working for an ad company. They'd driven every other programmer to quit, and he tendered his resignation. They offered him a few months to work on his dream game if he didn't quit and finished the project first (it was right before the deadline)
<NathanKell|WORK>
He posted about it, interest took off, they smelled money, and it snowballed from there
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: also, was in ANBO last week, there was a copy of 0.8.5 on the computer there :-p
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, ouch. I can relate. I left Canonical after their either drove off or fired everyone
<soundnfury>
«egg»
* NCommander
needs to fix his KB layouts so I can do unicode fun
<NCommander>
brb
<egg>
soundnfury: ah but that's the swiss style
<NathanKell|WORK>
I mean, there's a reason we all left last October. Well, not all, but most.
<egg>
the french style has spaces inside
Hohman has joined #RO
<soundnfury>
egg: I don't care about the french style, it's french :P
* egg
imagines the remainder of SQUAD as the deserto dei tartari
<soundnfury>
besides, I have pizza now, so «bis bald!»
<NCommander>
Test «Test»
<NCommander>
Sweet
* NCommander
<3's the compose key
<NathanKell|WORK>
Jamie and Dave are Good People (tm). Steve too, though he's QA not dev. And Roy's a good kid. I either don't know or won't comment on the others :]
KrakenOverlord has joined #RO
<NCommander>
Good management is like air
<NCommander>
YOu don't know what you have until it's gone.
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: but buzzati's fort has good people in it
KrakenOverlord has quit [Client Quit]
* NCommander
sighs
<NCommander>
I need to visit Mexico again
<NCommander>
It's one of my favorite places to spend time
* NCommander
did an extended road trip through Mexico a few years ago
<regex>
Man, the good old days of talking shit about how amateur the code was...
<NCommander>
and as principia and its dependencies build (thanks egg :P), Scott Manley uploaded a video
<NCommander>
bbiab
<NCommander>
regex, amatuer code makes the world go round
<egg>
NCommander: building protobuf takes ages :-p
<NCommander>
egg, I built DFHack from source. I *know*
<NCommander>
ugh
<egg>
regex: I mean, it's still a shitty codebase :-p
<NCommander>
C++ can bite me.
<egg>
NCommander: oh, dfhack uses proto too?
<NCommander>
I helped upgrade it
<NCommander>
When we moved to VC++15 on Windows
<NCommander>
It was not a fun process
<regex>
egg XD
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Sorry was afk. Overall I would either leave the Admin Building as is until you get anything to do with Strategia, or turn off all strategies. The former is no work and ehh, if people want an easier time, they get an easier time. The latter makes everyone's experience a bit more uniform
<NCommander>
egg, protobuf was a nightmare when I did ARM projects
<egg>
NCommander: you might like #kspacademia for tales of my DF game and Nomal the worried goblin academic btw :-p
<egg>
also numerical analysis, algebra, and catpics
<soundnfury>
NCommander: very true about management.
<soundnfury>
we have really good middle mgmt at Solarflare, which is just as well as it shields us from the gibbering gibbons that are our C-level execs ;)
<NCommander>
Somewhere, somehow, someway, someone is going to make Dwarven Space Program
<NCommander>
Involving a box, a cat, a minecart, and a lever
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: I don't see a useful middle ground for RP0, just because reputation doesn't really play much of a useful role, and while trading funds for science of vice versa might be useful, I don't see a lot of profit in spending time in properly balancing that.
<NathanKell|WORK>
regex: Not the most naive, it'd be very Bobish to steal two more mods :P
<soundnfury>
NCommander: and I will tell that someone to shut up and take my money ;)
blowfish has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<regex>
NathanKell|WORK: HAHAHAHA
<NCommander>
Maxsimal, reputation isn't very useful even when you understand how it works
<NCommander>
As best I can tell from blackbox testing, it acts as a multiplier for contract rewards
<NCommander>
And some influence on what the RNG will give you if you don't have contract configurer
<regex>
Watch that jackass add LqdHydrogen and LqdOxygen as base-game resources and then fuck with their densities "for game balance"
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, actually, there's an interesting idea for RO/Admin that reputation is required to actually get contracts. You need to prove you know how to go to the moon before you go to the moon. If you play Soviet Space Program and emulate the N1, well, you're not going to the moon
<soundnfury>
NCommander: what have you got against the N1? It's a _highly effective_ local entropy increaser ;)
<NathanKell|WORK>
I've long favored making funding mostly dependent on rep
<NCommander>
soundnfury, well, we could be playing North Korean Space Program. See how much shit you can get away with before China invades
<NCommander>
And manned launches go before unmanned ...
<Bornholio>
china invades .smirk
* NCommander
just realized he described the stock tree ... >.<;
<Maxsimal>
Ncommander: Yeah that's why I said it's not useful for RP0. It used to influence the satellite contracts the base game would give you, but now that's no more.
<soundnfury>
NCommander: oh, like stock :P
<soundnfury>
dammit ninjas
<NCommander>
so kerbals are what happens when North Korea takes over the world?
<NCommander>
... that explains far too much.
<egg>
Ꙩ_ꙩ
<Bornholio>
⚡TF⚡ yeah number three for the day
<NathanKell|WORK>
#orkyboyz
<egg>
NCommander: btw, in case you don't know about this bot command:
<egg>
!u Ꙩꙩ
<Qboid>
U+A668 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER MONOCULAR O (Ꙩ)
<Qboid>
U+A669 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER MONOCULAR O (ꙩ)
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, what I'd probably do is somehow show in the mission ontrol building the reputation lines you need to have before you can get the milestones.
<NathanKell|WORK>
yep, that would be very cool
<NCommander>
As well as being able to recruit people to your space program
<NCommander>
I'd actually would tie the admin building into KCT, and you can focus on infrastructure, VAB construction, SPH construction, or R&D
<soundnfury>
aww man, launch pushed back to end of window
<NCommander>
Then upgrades happen over time, and progress by successful missions.
<NCommander>
soundnfury, SpaceX launch?
<soundnfury>
now I have to stay up even later :/
<NCommander>
or something else?
<soundnfury>
NCommander: yeah. T-0 now at 0035Z
<NCommander>
soundnfury, didn't even realize they were launching today
* NCommander
has missed a bunch because so frequent
<Bornholio>
backup launch from yesterday
<NCommander>
soundnfury, ping me when the live stream goes up
<soundnfury>
NCommander: was meant to be yesterday but they had a T-9 abort
<regex>
It's like a background noise, all these launches
<NCommander>
yeah, I read that this morning
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell|NCommander: I'm not sure about that. You already have cash and tech limits on reaching certain milestones, I don't think another gating factor - for which do you what to influence? Just mission grind? - would generate more interesting play.
HuntingRaptor is now known as UmbralRaptor
<egg>
!wpn UmbralRaptor
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptor a lenticular ⚛
<NCommander>
Maxsimal, reputation isn't hard to max out. But if you fuck up, you need to recover it. Return to Flight so to speak
<Maxsimal>
Now you could change the way rep behaves, but it's current system of an asymtotic approach to a maximum wouldn't be that interesting - good players could get to and sit at max rep, poor players would deviate and have a rough time grinding to get to a place they can make progress. Neither case is fun.
<UmbralRaptor>
!wpn egg
* Qboid
gives egg a port shard
<NCommander>
hrm
<egg>
!choose zzz|df
<Qboid>
egg: Your options are: zzz, df. My choice: df
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, so is reputation basically pointless in stock these days based on your earlier comment?
* NCommander
did barber pole the meter once
egg is now known as egg|df|egg
<NCommander>
WHen launching 40 tourists in hardcore
<NCommander>
CHECK YOUR STAGING
<NCommander>
That was hilarious
<NCommander>
and sad
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: it's pointless in RP-0
<soundnfury>
NCommander: Apparently the N in your nick stands for Nedelin xD
<NCommander>
Nedelin?
<NathanKell|WORK>
it's not pointless in stock, it controls contract prestige you can get
<NCommander>
oh, the way you said it suggested that wasn't the case in stock anymore
<Bornholio>
not with contract config
<NathanKell|WORK>
^
<NathanKell|WORK>
which we use
Moistmelon has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
<NCommander>
Honestly, maybe the best way to treat it as the fun factor then is a "politicial" goodwill thing. If you're doing well, you can trade rep for something you need *NOW*
<NCommander>
More astronauts, one time fast pad turn around, something
<NCommander>
Kinda like monoarch points in EU4
<egg|df|egg>
goblin miners look like geese
<NCommander>
egg|df|egg, ... I had a sudden urge to mod kerbals into the game
<Bornholio>
DF, take out the Z and go rimworld
* NCommander
notes its stupidly easy to add something like Jeb to the game and make him appear in engravings
<egg|df|egg>
NCommander: they would look like keas >_>
<Maxsimal>
NCommander: That could be interesting, but to me the problem is that you don't do something different to get rep vs to get cash. science is different because you can do missions for science seperately - but right now, you get rep & cash from contracts and milestones, so they're really the same 'currency' being doled out in two ways, and thus having an extra reward from rep is just that - an extra reward, not something that makes the player think "I'm gonna do
<NCommander>
Maxsimal, well, the most useful thing to use rep for is to get funds/scince via admin, or bailout grant if shoot yourself in the foot
<NCommander>
Maxsimal, also, I haven't see +science in any of Pap's contracts
<Maxsimal>
Ncommander: Yes, exactly, it's just converting it to extra cash, the admin building contracts really are just "hit button, % extra reward' in RP0.
<NathanKell|WORK>
There are a few contracts that have science rewards (Lunar Impact, Orbital Recovery)
<NathanKell|WORK>
but IIRC that's it
<NCommander>
Actually
<NathanKell|WORK>
By design.
<Maxsimal>
In the base game, at least there's some tradeoff between more cash vs better contracts
<NCommander>
I know how to do it.
<NCommander>
Trade rep for unique contracts
<NCommander>
"Launch the International Space Station, pay X rep to make this contract available"
CobaltWolf has joined #RO
<NCommander>
Or "Recreate the Voyager Grand Tour"
<NCommander>
My largest problem with Stragama is that the Manned/Unmanned programs punish you if you want to do multiple things
<NCommander>
Badly
<Maxsimal>
I still think you'd have to do something that gives a player a choice between "I'm going to fly this type of mission to get rep, vs this type of mission to get cash". If we had that, then yeah, having something special come from rep is cool. Without that, it's not.
<NCommander>
Maxsimal, endurance/speed contracts give rep, not funds
<NCommander>
And remove rep (or very little) from normal ones
<Maxsimal>
Endurance/speed milestones? Sure, but mostly you do those anyway in the course of doing other stuff - plus you can only do them once.
<NCommander>
True, but then you trade the rep for a unique contract that gives uber rewards. Something like that
<Maxsimal>
It would be better if say, you had 'prestige' missions, like, I dunno, useless sputnik-type stuff, and secret military contracts that give cash but no rep - and picking one removes the other (for a set # of days) so the player is making a real choice.
<NCommander>
Reminds me of the Tourism Plus hotel/casino one
<NCommander>
I'd like to see those prestige missions track some of the more advanced/awesome mission of RL
<NCommander>
Late gate: MER-A/B, MESSENGER, Voyager Grand Tour, New Horizons, SpaceX
<Maxsimal>
Yeah. However, being realistic, I would much rather just remove rep and have the focus be on more general contract variety, rather than spending dev time on creating & balancing some sort of split rep/cash track. course, it's not my decision.
<NCommander>
Well, you could leave it as is and the admin, and just let players trade it for something they want
<NCommander>
funds or science
<Maxsimal>
yes, or that
<NCommander>
The largest problem with admin in stock is its really underpowered, and it punishes you for using it
<NCommander>
If rep's only use is in the admin building
<NCommander>
Well
<NCommander>
problem solved.
<Maxsimal>
I should look at strategia though, I've never tried it.
<NCommander>
I have a love/hate relation with it
<Maxsimal>
Anyway, off to bed, later gents (and ladies, if there are any here :P )
<NCommander>
I love the concept of focused missions
<NCommander>
I hate the penalities for going outside of them