<ferram4>
lamont, for b(n, stage) and c(n, stage), will n ever be anything besides 0 and 1?
<lamont>
yeah
<lamont>
n goes up to stage # + 1
<taniwha>
blowfish: I think it was landedat. I don't remember, really
<lamont>
sorry goes up to stage #
<ferram4>
Ah.
<lamont>
b(2,2) and c(2,2) for 2-stage, b(3,3) and c(3,3) for 3-stage, etc
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<taniwha>
dang it, get it to launch once, then it explodes on the pad every time
<lamont>
yeah do you have any slick ideas for memoizing those?
<ferram4>
Do b() and c() all update in real time, or only a subset, or none?
<SlainteMaith>
Ev'n, lads.
<lamont>
they only update as delta-v values update
<blowfish>
taniwha: sorry for bugging you on this stuff. Just difficult to change code I don't understand
<taniwha>
blowfish: oh, I understand
<ferram4>
lamont, which dV values? The ones required / estimated or the ones based on the vehicle config?
<lamont>
possibly as stage values update, lemme check...
<lamont>
the estimate feeds into the b(0,upper) value
<SlainteMaith>
lamont: I was wondering what sane guidelines are for the pitch rates on your PEG.
<ferram4>
Because then a lot can be pre-calced or calced in a batch and then not changed much.
<taniwha>
it could have been Events
<lamont>
yeah it definitely can that’s why there’s that big FIXME there
<taniwha>
but it was either Events or landedAt that wasn't initialized on time
<taniwha>
and I'm pretty sure it was when loaded a save, not when launching
<lamont>
so it looks like its a function of v_e, tau, and T for the stage
<lamont>
we update the booster as it burns and do live updating of v_e and tau in additon to burning down T
<lamont>
and then T updates for the upper as the estimate changes
<ferram4>
lamont, also, since it's fucking triggering me every time I see it, can you change the Math.Pow call into double IntPow(double val, int exp) { double result = val; for(int i=1;i<exp;++i) result *= val; return result;}
<lamont>
hahaaha
<ferram4>
Like, seriously, save your FPU some effort.
<Bornholio>
SlaintMathe booster time = to burn time of first stage and boosters, pitch rate adjust for ~20deg
<taniwha>
blowfish: go ahead and make the changes you want to make your way
<taniwha>
if things throw again, I'll sort them out
<blowfish>
hmm, I thought I tested that scenario, I'll try it one more time
<Bornholio>
SlainteMaith booster time = to burn time of first stage and boosters, pitch rate adjust for ~20deg
<SlainteMaith>
bornholio Thankee!
<lamont>
lemme see if i can find that in MechJeb somewhere and reuse it, I would bet some (but not too much) money that someone already wrote that...
<Bornholio>
it depends quite a bit on TWR make a run and if you pitch violently up or down adjust the rate accordingly
<ferram4>
lamont, what does tau represent, physically?
<lamont>
time to burn the entire rocket up down to the last proton
<ferram4>
Per stage?
<blowfish>
taniwha: tried launch vessel -> go to space center -> back to vessel and no throw either time. If you were seeing an NRE it had to have come from somewhere though.
<lamont>
yeah each stage has a tau
<blowfish>
how about this. I will move the code to OnStartFinished which should buy a couple of frames
<taniwha>
yeah, I suspect it was an EL base
<NCommander>
well I'm done w/ work
<taniwha>
blowfish: EL can build launchclamps anywhere, too, so...
* NCommander
fires up KSP and figures out how he's going to do a lunar flyby
<lamont>
just based on its v_e and its starting mass and the rocket equation
<ferram4>
Because then in theory, that shouldn't change at all (ignoring failures) and V_e shouldn't change (ignoring the stuff still in atmo) so lots of this stuff can be pre-calced, and stored (assuming it's entirely in space) and then only updated when it's active.
<blowfish>
taniwha: how much setup would I need to test that scenario? Can I just build something on another planet in sandbox?
<taniwha>
Just EL+MM, yes to sandbox, but you always need rocket parts
<taniwha>
oh, sorry, KIS too
<blowfish>
okay, so I would need to first get to the surface of another planet?
<taniwha>
need that for placing the stakes
<taniwha>
yes
<taniwha>
hyperedit would work for that
<blowfish>
I guess HyperEdit...
<taniwha>
oh, or even just on Kerbin
<taniwha>
can build right beside the pad even
<NCommander>
taniwha, what are you debugging?
<lamont>
done ferram
<taniwha>
NCommander: blowfish is trying to test some changes he did around an NRE fix I made to MFT
<NCommander>
MFT?
<taniwha>
modular fuel tanks. the stock side of RF
<taniwha>
(really, the guts of RF)
<taniwha>
gah, the VAB's camera...
<NCommander>
ah
* NCommander
isn't sure what antenna he needs to use to get radio signals to/from the moon
<ferram4>
lamont, tks. Not the fastest pow possible (it's not taking advantage of powers of 2) but it's unlikely to be handling 8 stage rockets, so it's not really necessary
<lamont>
“taniwha: I think it's 5-6 stages for LKO”
<taniwha>
looks like 5
<Bornholio>
Are the stages that mess with it going to be ullage stages and sep stages might bring a simple three stager up to a logical 7 or 8
<ferram4>
Those don't count.
<ferram4>
Stages as in actual stages, with fuel and engines.
<Bornholio>
but if i have a 20m/s stage break its not going to count it?
<ferram4>
What's a "stage break"
<Ezko_>
ullage?
<Bornholio>
yes that and down seps
<ferram4>
It might count it. lamont?
<lamont>
its got some fairly crazy logic that tries not to count it
<lamont>
you can see on the stage stats if it finds it or not
<lamont>
if ( vacStats[i].deltaV > stageLowDVLimit )
<lamont>
{
<lamont>
public EditableDoubleMult stageLowDVLimit = new EditableDoubleMult(20);
<lamont>
that’s obviously supposed to be editable, i just never made the textbox
<lamont>
ah there’s also a button to redo the stage initialization
<lamont>
because that was definitely getting messed up on the twitch stream last night, so there at least needs to be the panic button for that
<lamont>
ferram4 how awful is boxing and unboxing nillable doubles for perf? (should i even bother asking?)
* lamont
backs slowly away from the snek he just pissed off…
* NCommander
thinks ferram4 has a leak in his pressure suit
<ferram4>
Yeah, it's bad
<Pap>
!wpn lamont
* Qboid
gives lamont a Taylor otter
<Pap>
Defend yourself
<blowfish>
CPU wise not bad. GC wise ... yeah
<NCommander>
What does WPN stand for anyway
<lamont>
so one obvious way to cache the b’s and c’s is to just have an array of 20,20 or so double values and 20,20 boolean values that correspond to if they’re ‘dirty’ or not. and if they’re dirty the function computes it and then marks it as clean. then have a method that dirties an entire stage, and then the rest of the algorithm can call that.
<lamont>
then optimize that 20 down a bunch
<lamont>
can write a method that creates that given N and then call that to initailize it at the start and if staging ever changes to a higher value
<ferram4>
Well, the b's and c's are associated with stages, right?
<lamont>
in fact that could be tied to num_stages increasing or decreasing since that happens infrequently enough that a tiny bit of garbage there would be fine
<ferram4>
Why not have the arrays be 1D and inside StageInfo?
<lamont>
ah yeah
<ferram4>
lamont, now, if I understand this right, the last stage needs 1 b and c, the 2nd to last needs 2 b and c, the 3rd to last needs 3 b and c, and so on, right?
<blowfish>
ugh
<blowfish>
taniwha: any idea why "cannot use equipped item because nothing equipped" despite stake being equipped?
<lamont>
its b(0, 0) b(1,0) for the first stage and c(0,1), c(1,1) for the second stage in 2-stage PEG
<taniwha>
blowfish: need to equip the mallet
<ferram4>
Hrm.
<lamont>
er no
<blowfish>
okay - stake, mallet, rocket parts ... anything else I need?
<blowfish>
basically my first time interacting with KIS or ELP
<taniwha>
survey station (cloned hitchhiker can)
<taniwha>
oh, and at least one engineer
<taniwha>
(to do the building)
<taniwha>
blowfish: there is a manual, but I make no claims to it being sufficient
<taniwha>
(need feedback on how (un)informative it is)
<lamont>
public double num_stages { get { return _num_stages; } set { _num_stages = val; do_some_stuff(); } }
<lamont>
how expensive is that layer of indirection there?
<taniwha>
blowfish: varies by inventory layout, but I pressed 1 to equip the mallet (4161), 2 to ready the stake (4162), held x to change to attach (4163), left clicked to attach (4164)
<taniwha>
(ie, the numbers vary)
<lamont>
in my mind, the compiler basically inlines the get side of that because its very common and strongly typed and requires no unboxing or anything
<SlainteMaith>
So here's a RO question. Let's say I build a plane. I fly the plane. I land the plane. I recover the plane. Do I have to build it all over again if I want to fly it a second time?
<stratochief>
SlainteMaith: depends, I think. KCT used to take care of ensuring you recovered the parts
<Bornholio>
kct yes, there is a kct recovery mod though
<stratochief>
IIRC, KCT stopped tracking recovered parts, but a different mod does that now. I don't recall what it is called
<SlainteMaith>
Recovering parts is one thing--I mean keeping the aircraft assembled in an 'inventory' if you will.
<Bornholio>
Scrapyard, no but you could park it
<Bornholio>
you would need to make a fuel truck
<SlainteMaith>
Oh. Gotcha. Never 'recover' the plane, just leave it.
<SlainteMaith>
Pity. It'd be nice to have a 'hangar' in KCT. Aircraft 'turnaround,' etc. Also useful for shuttle-type ops.
<Bornholio>
the cheating but acceptable way in my mind is , rush build the next time and cheat back the money
<taniwha>
not recovering the plane would cause problems for the crew
<Bornholio>
you can recover crew by having them exit, re-pop by fueling truck
<SlainteMaith>
taniwha Why? You can disembark the crew and recover -them- instead.
<SlainteMaith>
The fuel truck is trickier. Unless you make a -very small- docking port. =)
<Bornholio>
flexy docking ports or KIS/KAS
<SlainteMaith>
Or, you know, that. =)
<Bornholio>
lots of manual work, plus an object that has to load every time you launch
<taniwha>
SlainteMaith: I meant if you didn't do that
<SlainteMaith>
I still think keeping the plane in a virtual hangar would be less hassle. At least for the player if not the programmer. =)
<taniwha>
SlainteMaith: agreed
<Bornholio>
use scrapyard its good enough
<blowfish>
okay
<blowfish>
finally managed to launch something with EL
<blowfish>
with a launch clamp
<taniwha>
\o/
<blowfish>
no NRE that I see but maybe the timing matters?
<NCommander>
Principia seems to cause a lot of lag on the map view :/
<blowfish>
or having it in physics range?
<taniwha>
blowfish: save/load with it in physics range
<Bornholio>
if you use scrapyard stage recovery and FMRS together with KCT you can get a pretty heavy recovery schedule going
<taniwha>
and I think not the active vessel?
<blowfish>
still nothing
<SlainteMaith>
Oh, scrapyard does look pretty slick. Not -exactly- what I was looking for, but it does incorporate some good ideas.
<taniwha>
you're welcome. and thanks for the bits of feedback about using EL
<lamont>
(completely and utterly and hilariously untested, but it compiles)
<Bornholio>
dasm not sure what it is editing, can you post a log
<lamont>
so the lower stage cache invalidates once per KSP tick now. the middle stages never get dirtied. the upper stage has to be invalidated once per PEG loop cycle.
<Bornholio>
yeah it makes a mess, how about deleting MM Cahce files first
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<Bornholio>
log is here \SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\KSP_x64_Data\output_log.txt
<ferram4>
lamont, is there ever a chance that only one of the b or c constants for a stage will be dirty? Or just the b, and not the c?
<ferram4>
Because you might just need a single bool for each stage then.
<Starwaster>
goddamit, I log in, I immediately see a 'log is here' and try to click on it because my knee jerk reaction to a log link is to tstart troubleshooting it
<Qboid>
Starwaster: Theysen left a message for you in #RO [03.07.2017 07:41:48]: "do you have an ETA on the 7.6 release of Deadly Reentry or still testing? :)"
<Qboid>
Starwaster: blowfish left a message for you in #RO [03.07.2017 18:34:04]: "CKAN failed to index the most recent DRE because the zip doesn't contain a DeadlyReentry directory, just the DLL. Not sure if that was intentional or not."
<ferram4>
And then do a batch calc for the bs and cs for that stage
<Bornholio>
lol starwaster
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<Starwaster>
blowfish, it might be because the 2.6.0 release has TWO downloads.
<blowfish>
I'm guessing CKAN looked at the first one
<blowfish>
but it is only a DLL
<Bornholio>
dasm all the cache but not the .dll
<Dasm>
ConfigSHA, Physics, And TechTree?
<Bornholio>
yup
<Starwaster>
blowfish, I deleted the other download archive. I don't know if that will result in CKAN trying to re-index 7.6.0 or ont
<Bornholio>
it will recreate all of them on next load dasm
<blowfish>
I don't think it will try to reindex unless someone from the CKAN team tells it to
<Bornholio>
^ goodluck
<blowfish>
although I could be wrong since it failed to index the first time
<Starwaster>
the one that contained only a dll was the build for KSP 1.3.0
<blowfish>
could wait a few hours and see I guess
<Starwaster>
if it doesn't then it's just going to have to suffice as is
<Bornholio>
should bump rev and release only 1.2.2 then bump again and release 1.3
<Starwaster>
eventually there will be a 7.6.1
NathanKell|AWAY is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [07.07.2017 00:14:26]: "Is the volume used by tanks in Liters?"
<NathanKell>
Pap: Yep
<blowfish>
Starwaster: .version file would show wrong version of KSP then wouldn't it?
<Starwaster>
blowfish: I don't care.
<Starwaster>
it was an unsupported download to begin with
<blowfish>
ah
<Starwaster>
I've been explicit and upfront about that
<Starwaster>
as forthcoming about it being an unsupported download as I can
<Starwaster>
it was just done as a courtesy to KSP 1.3.0 users
<blowfish>
yeah, makes sense
<Starwaster>
in fact I was also explicit about the fact that it WOULD result in a version mismatch being reported and that it was ok for it to do so
<Starwaster>
does that prevent people from generating support requests? HELL no.
<blowfish>
heh, of course not
<Starwaster>
just as surely as there are still people out there (STILL OUT THERE) who think rockets need something to 'push against' and therefore 'cannot possibly work in a vacuum'
<Starwaster>
HOW are people stupid enough to think that?
<taniwha>
Starwaster: and then you get Gordon Dry :P
<Starwaster>
how is it possible that their tiny little brains can even generate the autonomic responses required for them to breathe?
<Bornholio>
collateral
* Starwaster
is getting triggered by taniwha's ruthless mention of Gordon Dry
<taniwha>
(he does at least give logs without prompting)
<taniwha>
or did for me the other day
* Starwaster
triggering intensifies
<Starwaster>
my issue with his logs is he... POSTS them everwhere... EVERYWHERE
<Starwaster>
does the log mention FerramAerospaceResearch? ANYWHERE? Must post the log and complain in FAR thread....
<taniwha>
heh
<Starwaster>
does it mention RealFuels? OMG NOTIFY REAL FUELS PEOPLE IMMEDIATELY
<Pap>
NathanKell: thanks
<Starwaster>
and of course, attempting to troubleshoot himself instead of actually, you know, LISTENING to the people he's asking for help from
<taniwha>
my annoyance with him was I had released an update to EarlyBird 2-3 days before his post reporting a bug I had fixed in that update
<Bornholio>
lamont damn you and your PEG, it works too well, space is littered with upper stages that would have fallen back if i piloted them!
<xShadowx>
Starwaster: rockets do need something to push against, if their exhaust was instantly magically gone, it would remove the pressure, and nothing would go :P except for like ion etc that use electricity to eject it
<Starwaster>
I've stopped trying with him.
<Pap>
I am working on creating 3 new Cube Sats for us to have some more options (2 of them you won't care about because they are from late in the tree)
<taniwha>
he did eventually come back with a legitimate bug, though
<taniwha>
(thus 0.1.2)
<Starwaster>
xshadowx the expanding gas pushes against their own nozzle walls. That's what gets pushed against. By the expanding exhaust. The rocket itself doesn't 'push'
<Dasm>
Bornholio: Still broke
<Starwaster>
I mean, literally there are people out there that think it pushes against the ground or it pushes against the atmosphere in order to move anywhere
<Bornholio>
k did you see the line about where to find the log at?
<xShadowx>
could be worse, they could be those silly people who think the earth is round
<Pap>
^^^ suckers
<NathanKell>
Pap: Cubesats, cool!
<Bornholio>
cubetanks cool :P
<NathanKell>
Pap: Also note that changing the density of something will break anything launched/building that currently uses it. So warn testers first :)
<taniwha>
Starwaster: I used to think that too... until I read a book about rockets somewhere between the ages of 6 and 11
<Pap>
Ah, I didn't know that NathanKell, good information to have
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith: In flight, click the KCT icon. Then go to the tab of the place you want to recover the vessel to (VAB or SPH), then click (*in the KCT window*) the 'recover vessel' option.
<NathanKell>
Pap: Density changes are immediate and global.
<Pap>
Makes sense
<Starwaster>
and I guess that's ok for a 6 year old.... doesn't say much for grown adults posting on the intarwebz though :(
<NathanKell>
Pap: For ease in figuring out mass, I would request that you go straight to 0.2g/cc instead of 0.16
<Starwaster>
I mean, I'd never rip on a 6yo for posting something like that
<Starwaster>
or 11yo
<NathanKell>
Pap: I have to use a calculator, if it's .16
<Pap>
NathanKell: Do we lose the size parameters we are trying to force?
<taniwha>
Starwaster: it's more lack of education than stupidity
<Pap>
NathanKell: I always have to use a calcualtor :)
<NathanKell>
Nope, we still get big payload
<Pap>
ok
<NathanKell>
(IMO)
<taniwha>
and bad luck at being born in an area that shuns education
<Pap>
Question on the Probe Cores...Why does the Surveyor core and 1T Satellite Bus use 0.16 EC?
<Bornholio>
taniwha its massive self delusion of stupidity, educated people are sometimes the worst
<Pap>
Older technology Ranger and Mariner use 0.8 and 0.5 respectively
<taniwha>
Bornholio: I guess it depends on what you consider "educated" :)
<Pap>
Is it because they can control so much more mass in Avionics?
<NathanKell>
because microchips
<NathanKell>
wait
<NathanKell>
now I'm confused
<NathanKell>
160W !?
<NathanKell>
that seems a bit much
<Bornholio>
taniwha all the way to ivy league doctors who fail to believe we could land on the moon
<Pap>
That is what I thought as well NK
<taniwha>
160W: someone left the work lamp in there
<Starwaster>
ah crap that's 1.3.0 only isnt it. how does it behave with a stock sized Kerbin? Is it at all useful in that situation?
<lamont>
that MJ release is 1.2.2
<lamont>
"release"
<Starwaster>
oh really
<lamont>
peg-testing9
<Starwaster>
ok
<lamont>
and on stock-sized kerbin it’ll have issues if you don’t have single-burn-to-orbit
<Starwaster>
I was gonna grab it anyway but at least in 1.2.2 I have something to really test it on
<lamont>
i also put in basically gravity-turn style ascents for stock
<lamont>
so tip over hard with a hilarious hard TWR, burn up to 45k ApA, then “circularize” at ApA to bring the ApA up on the other side of kerbin to 100k and voila 2800dV to orbit
<Starwaster>
taniwha, at some point in the near future I'm going to make a change in RF to allow for a minimum amount of resource that is unmanaged by MFT. Is that something you think might be useful for MFT or should I just confine it to the RF tank extension?
<Starwaster>
lamont that sounds like it would burn up on ascent o.O
<NathanKell|Twitch>
!tell Pap* um, NCommander reports that none of the Aviation nodes are bluesky-gated
<Qboid>
NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
* NCommander
needs to recheck to make sure I didn't unlock anything
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<NathanKell|Twitch>
!tell Pap* the High Speed Flight node should require the Early HSF Era node, the AJE node (that has J58s) should require the Advanced Capsules era bluesky node, etc
<Qboid>
NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Starwaster>
blowfish ah excellent, an RF release for 1.2.2 that incorporates my last round of commits. Thank you
<blowfish>
yup
<blowfish>
had to release off a branch due to 1.3 commits on master
<Starwaster>
right
<blowfish>
seemed to work ok
<Starwaster>
should probably post a link for that in the RO thread since it impacts RO players the most
<Dasm>
blowfish: Uhmm.. I downloaded all the stuff with CKAN and uhmm... they're not showing up in my gamedata folder
<blowfish>
all what stuff?
<Dasm>
The RSS/RO stuff
<blowfish>
Not sure what's wrong, I know some stuff about CKAN metadata but not strong with debugging the actual client
<blowfish>
everything installed fine, no errors?
<blowfish>
correct KSP install selected?
<Dasm>
The downloads are showing up in the CKAN download folder
<Dasm>
I'ljust extract them all to the gamedata folder and hope for the best
<blowfish>
that doesn't mean that they're actually installed
<blowfish>
CKAN downloads then installs
<blowfish>
and it caches all of the downloads
<blowfish>
so if you install something then remove it, the download will still be there
<blowfish>
or in a different KSP install
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<Starwaster>
don't manually install anything that you find in CKAN's download folder or it will not do updates for that mod anymore. It won't try to overwrite anything you do manually
<Starwaster>
dasm ^^^
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<borntosleep>
starwaster dasm messed up his install somehow with ampyear.
<borntosleep>
I was trying help him, but must bail
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<Dasm>
I broke it badly
<NCommander>
It's nice having people to discuss the pros and cons of the SLS and Shuttle w/
<regex>
So what do people do in the very early game, just time warp for like twelve years?
<ferram4>
Sounding rockets. Less crazy initial designs.
<regex>
Well, sure, but I've pretty much maxed sounding rocket tech.
<ferram4>
Hmm... there's probably other engines that should be air-lightable.
<regex>
Oh huh, the A-4 is actually air-lightable
<NCommander>
regex, A-4, and the aerobees. Remember that you ahve multiple configurations of rockets
<regex>
What do you mean "multiple configurations"?
<taniwha>
check the action groups view of the engine, I think
<NCommander>
regex, when you get deeper in the tree, some rocket engines get variants which are higher performacne
<NCommander>
regex, click "Open GUI" on an engine, and you'll have the option to switch to the variants. The RD-101/102/103
<regex>
Yeah, I know that, it's been in the game for quite some time. Thanks.
<NCommander>
and the Aerobee WBJAC, and AJ-10
<regex>
My Aerobee is already the next model
<NCommander>
regex, well, I managed first orbit '53 with RD-102 first stage, and two stage Aerobee AJ-10s w/ spin stablization
<regex>
Okay cool, maybe I'll try that, thanks.
<NCommander>
regex, make sure you dump the avionics after the first stage, they're too heavy to haul. Use the seperation motors on an angel to induct a spin, and you should have just enough fuel to squeak into LEO
<taniwha>
NCommander: giving it wings and a trumpet? :)
<taniwha>
oh, and a halo
<ferram4>
lamont, so thing I tried. I used the big RL10 pig rocket, switched the RL10 count to 5, and tried to launch it to 180x180, with a 25s turn start, 0.4 deg/s and 125s turn end, and it had trouble getting to orbit.
<ferram4>
Setting it to 250x250 made it possible, but clicking "reinitialize stage analysis" at any time seemed to just break any stable guidance that was there.
<Dasm>
Do I want medium KSP RSS textures or high textures?
<taniwha>
as high as your computer can handle
<lamont>
“reintialize stage analysis” re-does the algorithm that pulls MJ stages out into actual rocket stages and rejects little 2dV stage sep “stages” and stuff
<Dasm>
I have 8GB DDR4 and a GPU with 4GB vRAM
<taniwha>
(I've got 64GB of memory, so I went for high, even though I use RSS only for testing at this stage)
<lamont>
if the little stage display looks sane and the numbers that are updating there look right, you shoulnd’t push that or it will just break PEG guidance
<ferram4>
Well, it certainly breaks it :P
<lamont>
its for like that condition NK found himself in with the strange MJ “collapsing lower stages together bug” which broke it so that when you set it to 2 PEG still only found one stage and wasn’t updating the right values for 2-stage PEG because it got deeply confused by what MJ was telling it
<lamont>
your pig is fine and doesn’t tickle those kinds of bugs
<lamont>
i think i was doing 200x200 with the 5xRL10, your stage program sounds similar to the one i was using.
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<Dasm>
what was the mod that added the procedural probe core?
<Dasm>
And CKAN isn't letting me install RP0 ><
<Dasm>
Wait.. its not allowing me to download/install anything
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<regex>
Well that was new and exciting. I strapped an X-1 cockpit to an A-4 and grabbed the sound barrier contract. Might get a few more with it, including the Karman line.
<regex>
Already broke the Karman line with it.
<regex>
o/
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<NathanKell>
o/
<NathanKell>
lamont: Trying with the latest
<lamont>
there might be an index bug in the caching code
<NathanKell>
ah?
<lamont>
if it hits you, you can reinit the stage anlysis and it goes away
<NathanKell>
cool
<lamont>
i might have N-stage PEG working
<NathanKell>
\o/
<lamont>
at least i have stable 2-stage PEG on top of code that i think is 3 stage
<lamont>
but i haven’t yet tried to see how hilariously wrong 3-stage goes
<lamont>
(… that i think is N-stage)
<NathanKell>
hah
<acharles>
for loops are your friend?
<lamont>
piles of them
<NathanKell>
I find it hard to think of anything serious that requires more than 2 guided stages tbh
<lamont>
and my eyes are loopy from reading capital sigmas
<NathanKell>
so boost phase + 2 stages should be good for general use
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<NathanKell|Twitch>
here goes :]
<lamont>
yeah but you can let PEG handle the tail end of boosters
<lamont>
also eventual direct ascent to the moon
<acharles>
It’d be cool to use PEG for other forms of guidance too.
<lamont>
yeah
<acharles>
not just ascent
<lamont>
i’m not sure it does descent because of the approxmiations in delta-theta calculations (and possibly why the dV calc on the pad is still short a bit)
<lamont>
and historically they had to go to apollo IGM and use that for descent code, and thence to PEGAS in the shuttle
<lamont>
that’d be the goal, and then to have proper closed-loop guidance in principia
<lamont>
oops, i broke something
<acharles>
shuttle’s is called UFPG, I think.
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<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: yeah, but guidance in principia makes things tricky :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: we'd need to discuss an eggstremely logically lightweight interface layer (possibly pull in Sarbian for that one), and then the guidance logic can be implemented as part of principia
<egg|zzz|egg>
that latter part would probably take some time too since you might not be familiar with principia's libs
<egg|zzz|egg>
(also of course principia code has to be properly unit-tested and reviewed
<egg|zzz|egg>
and I forgot to close a parenthesis)
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn lamont
* Qboid
gives lamont a dysprosium ␕
<lamont>
nice
<lamont>
!wpn egg|zzz|egg
* Qboid
gives egg|zzz|egg a FLOSS register
<lamont>
thing is that with closed loop guidance i just need to be able to ask questions about my radius/velocity/etc, the fact that it gets perturbed slightly is corrected for by the guidance
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: um, but surely if your system is strongly sensitive to initial conditions that's not enough
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: what does your guidance try to do eggsactly (not for launches, for orbital manoeuvres)
<lamont>
that’s why its closed loop though
<lamont>
at every tick the errors propagate back through and it corrects itself
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: the errors where
<egg|zzz|egg>
the errors of the (current) initial state, or after some orbit propagation
<lamont>
that’s how i can engage PEG while still inside of the atmosphere a bit and those initial errors in the estimate are corrected for by the time i hit the orbital parameters that i want
<egg|zzz|egg>
ah, so you do have target orbital parameters
<lamont>
yeah
<lamont>
you’re constantly measuring the delta of where you are to where you want to be, and then recalculating how to get there
<egg|zzz|egg>
things get tricky though, because in many cases with Principia that can be woefully inadequate to describe your target trajectory
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: yes, but "where you want to be" is very hard to properly define
<lamont>
yeah, but for like a lissajous orbit, i’d compute where i wanted to be relative to the moon and earth (position and velocity) and then just reduce those deltas down to zero
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vQoYL
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQoYq
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree 57806a3 NathanKell: Fix missing avionics for Vostok/Voskhod.
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: where you want to be, but at what time :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
(or do you also guide to try to get there at the right time?)
<lamont>
that’s the ‘relative to the moon’ bit which gives you a phase angle and a clock
<lamont>
yeah
<lamont>
the guidance algorithm is what they used to target a direct ascent to the moon for the surveyor missions
<lamont>
no parking orbit
<egg|zzz|egg>
phase angle << again if you want to do a sufficiently robust principia-compatible thing we're going to have to mostly be orbit-agnostic
<lamont>
yeah what i don’t know is how to interactive with your orbit API, i assume it gets slighly wonky for wonkier orbits
<egg|zzz|egg>
we do not have an orbit API
<egg|zzz|egg>
there is no such thing as an orbit, logically, for us
<lamont>
ahhhh, see that’s what i was trying to ask the other night
<taniwha>
egg|zzz|egg: I got my shadow conic equations such that the singularities simply evaporated :)
<egg|zzz|egg>
(aside from the fact that we do not have a stable API that you could interact with)
<egg|zzz|egg>
but that's just a hard programming question, not a hard optimization question :-p
<taniwha>
er, nm, you were there
<lamont>
all the mechjeb code is very reliant on vessel.orbit and vessel.obt_velocity and things of that nature
<taniwha>
I think
<egg|zzz|egg>
we have trajectories
<egg|zzz|egg>
and reference frames
<lamont>
yeah
<egg|zzz|egg>
and then you could conceivably ask "what is the position and velocity of this trajectory in this frame at this time"
<lamont>
for the ascent code it uses mostly current position and velocity relative to the central body
<lamont>
(now)
<egg|zzz|egg>
well if it's current you don't need principia or anything, you have it already
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<lamont>
right, and then there’s desired position and velocity, that’s also not using any conic projection orbit math either
<egg|zzz|egg>
desired position and velocity is associated with a time?
<lamont>
not right now
<egg|zzz|egg>
that makes things very tricky
<lamont>
you insert into the periapsis and that’s it for now
<egg|zzz|egg>
you... can't really insert things into the periapsis with principia :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
(it's just a minimum of something over the trajectory, doesn't determine much)
<lamont>
heh, well it will insert it with zero radial velocity at the lower of the two target values and the energy that would give that Ap and Pe in a conic projection world
<egg|zzz|egg>
yeah, but conics won't do where principia matters :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
(and where it doesn't it doesn't)
<lamont>
right but PEG isn’t doing conics
<lamont>
that was the last half of that sentence not the first half
<lamont>
it brings the vehicle to a radius, with a certain radial velocity, with a certain energy and its finished
<egg|zzz|egg>
a radius though? not a position?
<egg|zzz|egg>
also a radial velocity only? see those are assumptions that are fairly tied to things having one central body
<lamont>
the real algorithm calculates downrange angle that it will bring you to
<lamont>
sure, but mostly we launch into parking orbit around the earth where we’re dominated by 1-body, and the moon and sun are small perturbations
<lamont>
over the course of a launch those don’t matter
<egg|zzz|egg>
ok, but for launch guidance you don't need principia
<lamont>
so the tricky thing is going to be planetary transfer
<egg|zzz|egg>
I thought you wanted to do orbital manoeuvres too
<egg|zzz|egg>
that's also tricky, and not 1-body at all
<lamont>
yeah i’m not sure what orbital maneuvers will require, but i think again closed loop guidance will help
<lamont>
the tricky bit will be like direct return orbits around the moon, which are inherently 2-body
<egg|zzz|egg>
yes of course any decent guidance is going to be closed-loop, that's not really the question
<lamont>
that’s where the code probably needs to make a patched conic approximate guess, the integrate through principias trajectories, and then run it through some kind of optimization
<egg|zzz|egg>
the question is how do you intend to measure error
<egg|zzz|egg>
what metric do you want to optimize
<egg|zzz|egg>
and that can get eggstremely tricky
<lamont>
yeah optimization problems are kind of horrible
<egg|zzz|egg>
yes, which is why we're interested in them
<egg|zzz|egg>
I would want to avoid going through a patchy conicy stage
<egg|zzz|egg>
that will break down if you're doing fancier low-energy stuff
<lamont>
i tried taking a run at mechjeb’s planetary transfer optimizer and i think i made it worse
<egg|zzz|egg>
and that's where you typically want really good guidance because you're on a tight Δv budget
<lamont>
well usually with any kind of optimizer you need to make a first guess which is in the ball park somewhere
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: well we have a manual planner
<egg|zzz|egg>
so you could imagine the target trajectory being the one manually planned
<lamont>
yeah i’ve played with that
<egg|zzz|egg>
otoh it doesn't do things from launch, so that's tricky
<lamont>
just need automation around fiddling with that
<egg|zzz|egg>
that's a separate question
<egg|zzz|egg>
you might want automation to get the flight plan
<egg|zzz|egg>
but guidance is automation around eggsecuting it
<egg|zzz|egg>
anyway, principia guidance is a fairly tricky can of worms, so don't hold your breath; eventually we'll get to thinking about it
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: also something something Makefile >_>
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: also I should get out of bed and go to work, bbl
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<egg|afk|egg>
!tell lamont so, I would suggest that for high-energy trajectory you try to make do with conic approximations for now, since many of your optimization targets seem to rely on central-body things. With principia you'll need more TCMs after launch, but hopefully it should do the job.
<Qboid>
egg|afk|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg|afk|egg>
!tell lamont for launches into low-energy transfers like GRAIL http://ccar.colorado.edu/asen5050/projects/projects_2012/truesdale/img/grail.jpg (note the drift between launch window opening and closing) you would actually need principia, but principia still needs eggstensive work to be able to plan such a thing from the ground anyway
<Qboid>
egg|afk|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Sigma88>
0/
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<Maxsimal>
Is the AJ11 in base RO stuff? Not sure if I got it from another mod or not, wondering if someone knows.
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<Theysen>
Maxsimal, for Titan?
<Maxsimal>
No, the aerobee
<Theysen>
USRockets?
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<Maxsimal>
Hrmm yeah might be. Thanks
<Maxsimal>
!tell pap Hi I have a formula for you, https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7nRgtUVNfGrNTNWYXRTRkljLW8/view?usp=sharing , should keep no-payload, tech0 rewards roughly the same, but lower rewards as the player techs up while increasing the rewards for increasing payloads. We can talk about what all the parts do and why I added them, some may overcomplicate things
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Maxsimal>
!tell pap* Btw, I dunno if you handle this, but AJ11 probably needs a TF config, and both Aj11 and aerobee jr need nodes at the base. Also, what happened to NERVA I in the tree? I see NERVA II but not 1.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Maxsimal>
!tell pap* Hi I have a formula for you, https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7nRgtUVNfGrNTNWYXRTRkljLW8/view?usp=sharing , should keep no-payload, tech0 rewards roughly the same, but lower rewards as the player techs up while increasing the rewards for increasing payloads. We can talk about what all the parts do and why I added them, some may overcomplicate things
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Theysen>
RIP dude, my country just went into rambo mode due to G20 ... holy smokes
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<NCommander>
ugh, who plugged in the sun :/
Pap|AFK is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [07.07.2017 03:28:41]: "um, NCommander reports that none of the Aviation nodes are bluesky-gated"
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [07.07.2017 03:31:07]: "the High Speed Flight node should require the Early HSF Era node, the AJE node (that has J58s) should require the Advanced Capsules era bluesky node, etc"
<Qboid>
Pap: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [07.07.2017 11:36:21]: "Hi I have a formula for you, https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7nRgtUVNfGrNTNWYXRTRkljLW8/view?usp=sharing , should keep no-payload, tech0 rewards roughly the same, but lower rewards as the player techs up while increasing the rewards for increasing payloads. We can talk about what all the parts do and why I added them, some may o
<Qboid>
vercomplicate things"
<Qboid>
Pap: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [07.07.2017 13:00:12]: "Btw, I dunno if you handle this, but AJ11 probably needs a TF config, and both Aj11 and aerobee jr need nodes at the base. Also, what happened to NERVA I in the tree? I see NERVA II but not 1."
<Qboid>
Pap: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [07.07.2017 13:00:43]: "Hi I have a formula for you, https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7nRgtUVNfGrNTNWYXRTRkljLW8/view?usp=sharing , should keep no-payload, tech0 rewards roughly the same, but lower rewards as the player techs up while increasing the rewards for increasing payloads. We can talk about what all the parts do and why I added them, some may o
<Qboid>
vercomplicate things"
<NCommander>
Pap, you're a popular guy
<Pap>
apparently!
<Pap>
NCommander: I missed the Flight nodes with gating them with Blue Sky Nodes, huh?
<NCommander>
Pap, more specifically, there's a lot of stuff that needs to move down from Mature Supersonic Flight to High Speed Flight (the next down) which is the first bluesky gate
<Pap>
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh
<Pap>
So the parts need to become gated or they are available too early?
<NCommander>
Pap, well, let me show you what I built '54 with Mature Supersonic Flight :)
<NCommander>
Pap, http://imgur.com/a/w5OQ9 - Behold my Mach4 aircraft, with just the three first supersonic nodes
<NCommander>
Pap, that's how the whole discussion got started
<Pap>
So is the engines that are the problem?
<Pap>
Theysen: we had the G8 (or whatever it is called) in our city a few years ago, nothing but issues
<Theysen>
lets make g20 in a metropole gg
<NCommander>
Pap, yeah, I'm not exactly sure, but I feel like at least the J-58-P-4 needs to move down, but basically you get an entire set of engines at mature super sonic flight from Mach 2 to Mach 4
<Theysen>
instead of rural facilities
<NCommander>
Pap, and a new prop engine at High Speed Flight. Something about that isn't quite right :)
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<Pap>
All relativity NCommander, compared to a horse, a prop engine is high speed ;) /s
<Theysen>
pap is anti planes
<Theysen>
me too because terrain seems
<Pap>
I am anti-planes in KSP because I don't have anything to accomplish with them
<Theysen>
and youre right, if you base it on years you cant put the most modern prop in 1956 just because it goes slower than jet engines
<NCommander>
Pap, well true, but I think there needs to be a more linerear progression here. We also need to figure out how to make planes useful ;)
<Theysen>
actually: tip of turboprop blade > mach 1
<NCommander>
Pap, part of me would love to see a speed/range contract. Fly from point X to point Y maintain average velocity of Z, or "design an aircraft that can carry a payload of 1k MissileBus at Mach 5"
<Pap>
I am all for others using planes, I just don't have any KSP knowledge with them. That is why others (like you NCommander) playing is invaluable to the development
* NCommander
notes we could also have the F-35 contract. Design an aircraft with these capacailities which must cost more than X
<Theysen>
with the upcoming capsule changes planes become essentual again for speed records and milestones
<Theysen>
LOL
<Theysen>
NCommander, or in short: Bankrupt your agency and you win.
<NCommander>
Theysen, nah, it just needs to give negative funds and reputation
<Theysen>
Eurofighter Masterrace :^)
* NCommander
debates installing scatterer
<Maxsimal>
pap: o/
<Pap>
NCommander: Alright, I am looking into these engines more...The J85-GE-4 flew early, but since there is no TF for Jet Engines, I am going to go by operational years, so that pushes that engine back to the High Speed Flight Node, I will continue to do the same with the rest
<Pap>
o/ Maxsimal!
<Pap>
Maxsimal: Are you going to be around for a little bit?
<NCommander>
Pap, TF?
<Theysen>
newest scatterer from today crippled my performance
<Maxsimal>
Pap: For an hour, then I have an appointment, and will be back after
<Pap>
NCommander: Test Flight
<Pap>
Maxsimal: Let me finsih this little project and I have some questions for you
<NCommander>
Pap, ah, I feel like I've been a giant paint since I came to #RO >.>;
<Maxsimal>
Pap: No worries, no rush
* NCommander
needs breakfast
<Pap>
NCommander: I have good news and bad news...
<Pap>
Good news: I have fixed the engine placement. Bad news, the only engine still in that node is the F-86 Sabre Engine and the F-100 engine (much, much more accurate this way)
<Pap>
Maxsimal: OK, So I was looking at your sheet...
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Cool. Btw, height is in kilomters in my formula - I should divide by another 1000 since in the contracts its in meters.
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Err did you have any other comments? I realize that's much more complicated than what exited before in the sounding contracts. I can explain why each term is there, and you can ditch ones you don't feel are helpful
<Pap>
I am looking at it and figuring out what it all means :)
<Maxsimal>
Fixed weight is also because of the sounding rocket avoinics
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<Maxsimal>
Payload will be whatever weight of payload you randomize for the contract
<Maxsimal>
Reliability Factor is there because as you add more payload weight, more engines are used so overall rocket reliability goes down - scaled by tech nodes (up to a point) becuase you get access to a few better things for sounding rockets - but there's a limit, none of the heavy boosters, advanced avionics, etc are useful.
<Maxsimal>
Similar for the tech factor - you get a couple better engines like the XASR and AJ11 that apply to sounding rockets, + default tanks and service modules, but that's also limited
<Maxsimal>
HeightF - is obvious, though I should have mentioned it's in kilomters
<Maxsimal>
And CostF just scales it to what I've found with testing for a minimum-cost sounding rocket that can lift that amount of payload.
<Pap>
The way you have the advance payouts listed, what does that mean?
<Maxsimal>
The rewards then are just suggestions to keep the rewards for 0-payload missions roughly the same as the existing low/medium/high sounding rocket contracts.
<Pap>
ohhhh
<Pap>
The AJ11 and Aerobee Jr you mentioned, are those from RN pack?
<Maxsimal>
Yeah, US Rockets, i believe someone said.
<Pap>
You are going to have to contact him directly (I think) he makes his own RO configs and contributes them. He doesn't like having global engine configs setup as he wants to keep the control if others change the values. He will have to create the TF configs for those engines, or give us the permission to do so.
<Pap>
^^^ Raidernick
<Maxsimal>
Fair enough! I will message him.
<Pap>
Maxsimal: do you have values of Payload that you think should be used? Also altitudes?
<Maxsimal>
Pap: I'd suggest 10kg to 1000kg payloads, I did a little searching and the highest sounding rocket paylods seemed to be 1000kg. However, while someone can do 1000kg payloads for medium right from the start node, they can't do so for high until they get a bigger pad and/or better rockets, so I'd limit the sounding rocket high payloads to 100kg till a player has 10techs or so
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Maybe 20 techs
<NCommander>
Pap, cool. I'm going to make sure I finish my X-Plane contracts I have open before I git pull
<Pap>
No Dasm, you need to look in the RO_Supported / Squad / folder
<Dasm>
I don't see that
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<Bornholio>
no location with this \GameData\RealismOverhaul\RO_SuggestedMods\Squad\RO_Squad_Engines.cfg ?
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<Rounan>
Pap: Some feedback on contracts for you: I've been trying to get to the manned stage of an RP-0 career, and have yet to make it without cheating funds. Playing on "hard" with funds penalties set to 100%, as suggested by
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<Rounan>
Pap: NK. The problem I keep hitting is my rocket build time is >200days for anything orbital grade and contracts have 1year time limits
<Pap>
Rounan: woah, did you invest in Build time upgrades?
<Rounan>
Pap: So a single testflight failure means I can't recover and I fail the contract. The penalty is large enough to send me into the negative, such that I can't launch another rocket. Game over unless I cheat.
<Rounan>
yeah, I do 60/40 split on VAB/science with the initial points
<NCommander>
I have 0.7 build points in the VAB, and current 15-ish science in R&D
<Rounan>
that's actually an idea I wanted to suggest: coudl RP-0 allocate your initial upgrades for you, the "right way"?
<NCommander>
Usually get several tries to successfully complete a contract
* NCommander
is on hard, but has rep->money stragety active
<Rounan>
NCommander: I'll have to double check when I get home, but I think I'm around 0.7bp and 14 science - all my upgrades since initial have been science, since it's sooooo slow.
<NCommander>
Rounan, rocket science is hard. I also think I have 4 in SPH
<NCommander>
Since I do a fair number of X-Plane missions to provide a steady income
<Pap>
Rounan: Hard is going to be tough going, have you been doing a lot of the satellite contracts?
<Theysen>
Rounan, if you're already orbital 200 days sounds way off.
<Theysen>
Rounan, correct preset selected? Spending 10k's on upgrade points? Putting all tech unlocks points as well=
* NCommander
notes he's bought a few points
<Theysen>
Always buy if you have spare
<Rounan>
NCommander: Yup, I understand science is supposed to go slow as it's what makes RP-0 last into the 80s and beyond. No complaint there
<Rounan>
Theysen: thanks for the feedback, maybe I've screwed up VAB allocation and/or I'm building something silly and should wait another tech level. wouldn't be the first time
<Theysen>
Nothing you can build early should take that long afaict
<Rounan>
Theysen: RP-0 preset selected, the one time I forgot and left it on default it was very clear since research was happening in hours. :)
<Pap>
Rounan: have you been completing the satellite contracts?
<NCommander>
Rounan, a lot of it is you basically need to launch something pretty much every opportunity. DO sounding rocket contracts rapid fire.
* Theysen
disagrees heavily but each to their own :P
<Theysen>
Rounan, what type of orbital rocket are you launching?
<Rounan>
Pap: Yes, I do sounding rocket and satellite contracts.
<NCommander>
Rounan, optimization also is a big thing, my current satelite launcher is 5k a pop, so I usually make a nice profit
<NCommander>
Theysen, it's not hard to have a few prebuilt sounders that can fire off to X altitude
<Dasm>
Bornholio: I found this +PART[liquidEngine1-2]:BEFORE[RealismOverhaul] { @name = RO-LR-89
<Theysen>
NCommander, I got sick of bothering with Build - Launch - Wait for like 1k bucks. Can't do anything with it
<NCommander>
Theysen, I run those missions at physics time acceleration 4x, and then range safety them once they cross the limit
<Theysen>
Still not worth the time imho
<Theysen>
time vs. gain
<NCommander>
Theysen, well that was up until I could put something in orbit
<NCommander>
Theysen, now I do satelite missions back to back
<Rounan>
I'm off the cuff here, at work and blanking on engine names, but IIRC it was based on the first russian kerolox engine: 1st stage is 5x with 1.2TWR, 2nd stage 3x with ~1.0 TWR, and then final stage is the relightable AJ27(mid)
<NCommander>
That's far later in the tech tree than I am
<Rounan>
IIRC, cost was ~14k and ~200d build time
<Rounan>
and I have not been doing any SPH building because the runway is a mess in 1.2
<Theysen>
Rounan, that far into the tech tree you should already have a good dump in build rate if I am not misjudging
<Theysen>
0.7 sounds very low
<NCommander>
Rounan, honestly, it sounds like your launch stage is overbuilt.
<Rounan>
I have not been buying extra BP, as I was finding funds to be a shortage after upgrading necessary buildings for maneuver nodes
<Theysen>
NCommander, I like to have my 3rd launch go orbital (for the current tree that is)
<Bornholio>
dasm with the amount of effort you are putting into it you may want to just make a new fresh install and reinstall the same list you have now. just export from CKAN and load it onto the new KSP install.
<Pap>
Right Rounan, but wiht the amount of nodes, there should be plenty of upgrade points to go around without buying a bunch of extra
<Rounan>
NCommander: That's certainly possible.
<NCommander>
Theysen, this is my first RP-0 run, so it took me a LOT of failures before I got into orbit
<Rounan>
Pap: Right, I've just been sinking those into science mostly.
<Theysen>
NCommander, youre also playing Pap's new tree right=
<NCommander>
Theysen, yeah
<Theysen>
NCommander, no chance for orbit after 3 launches :D
<NCommander>
Rounan, hold on, I'll post my current R-7 launcher
<Theysen>
much more early grind :D
<NCommander>
Theysen, well, you could probably do it if it wasn't for test flight :)
<Rounan>
NCommander: Thanks, much appreciated!
<Bornholio>
dasm that or install each stepwise so you make sure its all there
<NCommander>
Rounan, this can reach polar orbit and (barely) sun synchro. For heavier payloads, I strap on more boosters
<Rounan>
Pap: I agree that it seems like I'm spending my upgrade poitns "the wrong way". It's an area I think RP-0 could provide more guidance, since progressing far enough in a campaign to realize you've irrevocably screwed up points allocation is, like, a 25h task. :)
<NCommander>
Theysen, it was more efficient than expected, I cut it to a R-3.5 to save money.
<Theysen>
NCommander, air ignited RD-108?
<Theysen>
NVM
<Theysen>
saw it
<Dasm>
Bornholio: This IS a fresh install
<NCommander>
Theysen, RD-108 bottom stage, with LR-89 boosters
<Bornholio>
lol
<Theysen>
Dasm, you have a tree.cfg?
* NCommander
is pretending the USSR-US agreed to Kennedy's plan for a coopoerative space program
<Bornholio>
okay send a screenshot of your instal folder and RealismOverhaul Folder
<Dasm>
I just deleted all the mm stuff and letting it rebuild
<NCommander>
Rounan, another big thing is avoid dragging avionics to orbit if you can avoid it. Early missions you can spin stablize them into orbit. You really only need avionics in orbit if you're aiming for a precision orbit
<NCommander>
That drastically helps reduce your stage sizes
<Pap>
Rounan: yeah, I don't disagree with you, and I know that NathanKell is going to be creating a tutorial series on the new tree. I think the best way we can fix that is to tell new players (not new to RP-0, but new to the New Tree) they should be playing on Normal or Moderate
<Theysen>
Pap, on a sidenote: remember the strange performance issue I have with multi engine and many many resources, like the R-7? It works flawlessly green in 1.1.3 LOL . So I think some mod brings out bad performance in 1.2.2
* NCommander
won't be surprised if it's test flight
<Pap>
Ahh Theysen that sounds like it is probably true
<Pap>
I wish that the Orbital Decay bug did not exist in 1.1.3
<Theysen>
NCommander, you think?
<Rounan>
NCommander: what's that baby sergeant doing in there?
<NCommander>
Rounan, ulliage.
<NCommander>
Rounan, it's not a baby serg, it's the one before it.
<Rounan>
NCommander: Oh, the WAC kick stage? Payload coasts to circularization burn, then?
<NCommander>
Rounan, yeah, I have very high TWR all the way out
<NCommander>
Rounan, so I coast for 3-4 minutes before lighting off the top one.
<Rounan>
NCommander: No kidding you do! What's the sustainer engine cluster, and how do you have the burntime on it to light at launch?
<Rounan>
NCommander: Maybe that's what I'm missing, knowledge of which engines in my node have decent burn times. AFAIK, you can't check this before unlocking the engines and unlocks are expensive.
<NCommander>
Rounan, you can see all the burn times, you just have to scroll down
<Pap>
Rounan: ^^
<NCommander>
Rounan, i.e., I could see burn times for all the RD-X engines when I got the first one
<Dasm>
Okay, so the engine I'm missing in the mainsail engine, but I definitely see mainsail in the Squad Parts folder
<NCommander>
Rounan, a lot of it really comes down to making sure your payload is as light as possible. with RO, every kg has a serious knock down effect on what you can haul up or down
<Bornholio>
can you get a picture of the full install folder
<Theysen>
It prunes stock parts, you can't use this folder.
<Bornholio>
yes
<Theysen>
it will fix your issue
<Bornholio>
that was what i was just looking up
<Pap>
^^^ THEY FIGURED IT OUT
* Theysen
should add that to the 'first-response-troubleshooting-list' next to Tree.cfg?, Filter Extensions?
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<Dasm>
Theysen: You mean the optional patches?
<Bornholio>
SSTU Optional patches
<Bornholio>
* Add a separate SSTU-OptionalPatches folder to distribution. These are a set of potentially destructive patches, but also contain some cool stuff (better USI and NF integration, editor parts list bloat cleanup). Very much WIP. WARNING Only install before starting a new game; adding these patches to an in-progress game will likely destroy all of your craft (lots of part removals).
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<Theysen>
sounds like fun :D
<Dasm>
.. but why would it overwrite a mainsail engine
<Pap>
Dasm: it doesn't overwrite anything, it removes almost all of the stock parts from the game
<Pap>
RO uses the stock parts to create the RO parts
<Bornholio>
its a part pruner function
<Dasm>
Pap: Theysen: Bornholio: I got my engines back
<Theysen>
Dasm, yes I know :P
<Bornholio>
twelve hours later :P
<Dasm>
WAIT!
<Dasm>
How the hell am I going to do an Atlas 1 without the ability to fuel feed between parts
<Pap>
Fuel feeds between parts
<Theysen>
Proc tanks share everything yeah
<Dasm>
I mean.. I can't have the boosters fall off
<Pap>
Dasm: Ask NathanKell how it is done, I know he has made one before using Proc Parts
<Theysen>
Proc decoupler turned around, Enable Crossfeed via right click menu Dasm
<Theysen>
put engine under it, decouple at reached burn time
<Dasm>
Got it!
<Pap>
Dasm: Option #2 is to use FASA :)
<Dasm>
Procedural booster decoupler does it
<Dasm>
I LIKE FASA.. I just don't want to add a tonne of parts to my install.. i already have a ton of parts
<Pap>
Dasm: That is also my issue with it
<Dasm>
I think FASA is super cool though
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<Pap>
Maybe I should make a FASA Light -> Only include the engines and certain pieces that are completely necessary, hmmm, something to think abour
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
* NCommander
fiddles with his RCS
<Bornholio>
dasm look at the number of things seperated by a decouple and you will see how it owrks
<Dasm>
Bornholio: Apparently it didn't matter any ways, I forgot that the Atlas boosters aren't supposed to have a seperate fuel supply any ways
<Bornholio>
Pap, suggestion: Modify the RP-0 KCT description to give some spending advice
<Bornholio>
for the RP-0 Preset
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<Dasm>
Guys! I'm doing space!
<Theysen>
SPESS!
<Dasm>
My Atlas Agena worked!
<Theysen>
TestFlight heard that
<Dasm>
I should be able to send a probe to the moon with an atlas agena, that's what the Rangers were sent on
<Theysen>
You are now doomed with the next 1000 launches
<Bornholio>
agathorn is one mean dude
<NCommander>
TestFlight: explaining why Launch Failure was such a common mission outcome :)
* NCommander
notes he's played with other part failure mods before but TF is the only one I feel like actually enhances gameplay
<Bornholio>
because you can understand and mitigate it
<NCommander>
partially mitigate it
<Bornholio>
and have 18 straight engine failures with A-9 motors like me
<NCommander>
You're boned if you have a first stage cutoff 10 seconds after releasing the launch clamps
<NCommander>
Bornholio, the A-9 is not a very reliable engine. Even with it's flight data maxed out, I haven't gotten any good performance out of it
<Dasm>
75mm is 75,000KM?
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<Bornholio>
75Mm == 75000km
<NCommander>
Dasm, it's 0.00075 km :). 75Mm would be that
<Dasm>
so 1GM is 100km?
<Bornholio>
1GM == 1000000km
egg|afk|egg is now known as egg
<Bornholio>
1Gm
* NCommander
notes you can identify the Americans by metric difficulties ;)
<egg>
:-p
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<NCommander>
It's k, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y
<egg>
NCommander: sadly the myria- prefix didn't make it
<NCommander>
I think
<egg>
it was a fun prefix
<NCommander>
Every time you move the demical point three places
<egg>
NCommander: frankly beyond E you should probably consider just writing a power of 10 :-p
<NCommander>
egg, unless your dealing with zebibytes :)
<egg>
then a power of 2 >_>
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Hiya. I gave Pap a formula for sounding-rockets-with-payload, did you want to look it over too?
<NCommander>
*trollface*
<egg>
but tbh a ZiB is rather big
<NCommander>
egg, I'm being kinda silly
* NCommander
had to upgrade his R-3.5 to a R-7 to put this com sat in the right orbit
<NCommander>
Next big node I need is Entry, Landing and Descent, then develop a launch escape system, and send someone on a suborbital flight
<egg>
!wpn NathanKell|AWAY
* Qboid
gives NathanKell|AWAY an antisymmetric planet
<egg>
!wpn NathanKell|WORK
* Qboid
gives NathanKell|WORK a yxala
<Bornholio>
SO long before EDL :P
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: huh, your hostname says valve, mine is rather dull
<egg>
well egg|work|egg's that is
* NCommander
notes there's a pressure release joke in here somewhere
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<regex>
Yeah, I was going to say...
<regex>
[Whois] egg is online via anarchy.esper.net (Destroy All White Permanents
<regex>
Hah, my whois even has my actual name, that's kind of funny.
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: X-1 cockpit + supersonic wings is enough to survive a suborbital flight
<NathanKell|WORK>
no need for EDL
<Bornholio>
^
<NathanKell|WORK>
chuck a glider on top of a Thor and you're golden
<NathanKell|WORK>
ah, scrum, brb
<regex>
Hell, you only need the cockpit on top of an A-4
<regex>
launch straight up, cut the engines when AP is at about 148km.
<regex>
it'll survive.
<Dasm>
NathanKell|WORK: Atlas Agena is boss
<Bornholio>
I do an x-1 engine sustainer and 4 gamma 2's almost too much, up to 500km lobs
<Dasm>
Wait, was the atlas stage supposed to get the Agena into orbit on its own? Or does the agena circularize?
<regex>
Agena sets the orbit, IIRC. Atlas can't lob that much mass into orbit
<egg>
regex: well egg is swisscom, egg|work|egg is just an IP; NathanKell|WORK says valve
<regex>
Yeah, I namedrop that at work.
<regex>
No one cares. :(
<egg>
regex: you namedrop what?
<regex>
That I have an internet friend at Valve
<egg>
regex: well now you have one at Google too? :-p
<egg>
in YouTube even
* egg
gives regex a cat video
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I have a kerbal that disagrees with you
<egg>
regex: an internationalized cat video!
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I sent one up awhile ago, but after two F5/F9 dances I decided I wasn't sending up another manned mission sans heatshield
<NCommander>
egg, BTW, do you have any examples of a low energy transfer w/ principa? In theory, these should be possible by aiming ahead of the target orbit, and eating the additional transit time but I haven't quite figured out how one does one.
<Dasm>
regex: Sweet, thanks- The Atlas 2 could though, right?
<NCommander>
egg, I might try that for my first moon orbit
<NCommander>
egg, it vaguely reminds me on how I did an el cheapo moho mission in stock. I did Eve->Moho to reduce the relative velocity, then zipped past moho five times which gave me a fairly sedate encounter.
<NCommander>
I think I only needed about 1.7 dV to put it in moho orbit from KLO
<egg>
NCommander: it's easier to look at it in the rotating frame
<egg>
NCommander: but then you have to be careful what you mean by relative velocity
<egg>
(don't use that word when frames can rotate, it gets confusing)
<egg>
just say velocity in the <whatever frame>
<egg>
but the point is that you get yourself nudged into just passing L1
<egg>
which requires less energy
<egg>
which requires the least energy to get to the Moon by definition
<egg>
though what sort of thing you do in the Moon's Hill sphere may vary
<egg>
also foodtime soon
<Dasm>
35.7Mm?
<NCommander>
egg, so if I understand how this works correctly, you basically aim for L1, and that pulls you towards the moon from Earth's point of reference. When you approach the moon, you're barely faster than escape velocity from a lunar reference, and need a small bit just to end up in an elipitical orbit.
<NCommander>
egg, did I use words that make my intent clear
<egg>
yeah
<egg>
it's nice because you can just reason in terms of energy
<egg>
you put your energy in the EMB frame to a point where you *can* just get past L1
<egg>
then you happen to go past L1, this is the tricky bit :-p
<NCommander>
egg, it would be nice if we could make a halo show up where Earth-Moon L1 is/will be in the flight plan. I was messing with the plan earlier, and found L1 after a bit of trial and error
<egg>
and then you need to reduce your energy very little to be captured
<egg>
i.e. to not be able to get out of the vicinity of the Moon again
<egg>
NCommander: that's sort of tricky because the Earth and Moon may move away from and towards each other; I'll poke at that eventually
<NCommander>
egg, yeah. I've also noticed a weird ... quirk that I'm getting lag on the map view after I change reference frames (surface to ECEF (... Ithink?), but once I time warp, it stablizes and I go back to green on the map. Weirdly, I don't get lag in the flight view
<NCommander>
Which suggests it's a prediction calculatio that melts my CPU
<egg>
NCommander: it's plotting that's slow
<NCommander>
I have that turned down as low as I can set it
<egg>
I mean, prediction calculation is not fast, but plotting is really stupidly slow
<egg>
NCommander: especially the histories
<egg>
NCommander: you should reduce the history duration, the prediction is actually okish
<NCommander>
egg, I've been basically hiding Principia's plot and using patched conics unless I actually need to do a transfer.
<egg>
NCommander: *reduce the history length*
<egg>
NCommander: and use the predictions
<NCommander>
egg, I'm lagging
<egg>
the predictions are fast, the histories are slow
<NCommander>
egg, where is the slider for history?
<egg>
<egg> NCommander: *reduce the history length*
<NCommander>
egg, I saw the message, I just got it out of order :)
<egg>
NCommander: max history length, on the UI
<egg>
reduce that as much as possible
<egg>
and use the prediction
<egg>
it's not the prediction that's slow
<egg>
(I mean if you set a really long prediction it will get slow but intrinsically it's not that)
<egg>
it's the history
<egg>
the reason is that we don't downsample the history
<Qboid>
[#228] title: Keep the whole history | For the moment we compute the histories using `sampling_period == 0`, which results in large gaps in the trajectory at high timewarp (rendered as long straight line segments, see below). We should use `sampling_period == 1` instead, and downsample ourselves as needed when rendering.... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/228
<egg>
oold bug too
<egg>
NCommander: anyway we're working on rendering & downsampling ourselves, which will make that faster
* NCommander
was just reading how this type of transfer was done in RL for the Hiten space probe.
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: Basically with low enough wing loading you should be able to survive suborbitals in the 180km height range with decent downrange (so a sane entry angle)
<gazpachian>
Peak TWR of 17
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<NathanKell|WORK>
gazpachian: one shuts it down early
<NathanKell|WORK>
you don't need more than 4-5km/sec
<gazpachian>
ah
<NathanKell|WORK>
it was the booster I had to hand
<waerloga>
I love that von Braun inspired wing
<lamontzzzz>
N-stage PEG flies (at least with 3 stages), but there’s a discontinuity in pitch angle i need to track down
lamontzzzz is now known as lamont
<waerloga>
so fun making my own version
<waerloga>
alas I never was able to land with gear
<waerloga>
just use parachutes
<NathanKell|WORK>
waerloga: yeah I remember yours!
<waerloga>
hoping to get back into RP0 before too long
<waerloga>
though looks like the new tech tree is approaching so might wait till then
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: you around?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Wanted to clarify my tells
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<gazpachian>
imagine ground control forgetting that protocol during launch though.
<NathanKell|WORK>
You wouldn't survive the reentry so who cares if you're smushed first
<gazpachian>
right, heat tolerance is shit on those parts
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: I talked to NCommander so I understood what the problem with the Jet Engines was. Those have been fixed (will upload later)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: But that wasn't what I was !telling you about :]
<Pap>
lol, ohhh
<NathanKell|WORK>
What I was saying was that unlike all other nodes, the aviation line isn't connected to the bluesky nodes (or so it seemed for NCommander )
<NathanKell|WORK>
so you can go as deep as you like without unlocking bluesky nodes
<NathanKell|WORK>
In terms of what node for what part--what changes did you make?
<Pap>
I double checked, all the flight nodes are attached to Blue sky nodes, he was saying that Mature Supersonic gave him access to 3 engines that would allow him to reach Mach 3+
<NathanKell|WORK>
ohh then I was wrong to !tell you :D
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ok, so what are the nodes, and what engines are in what? (Sorry, at work)
<Pap>
I wound up moving 5 engines out of that node because he was correct. They were all in the Mature Supoersonic node
<Pap>
It was the engine for the F-5/T-38, F-4E, F-106, A-12, English Electric Lightning F.6
<Pap>
4 of them got moved to HSF (gated by Blue Sky Node) and the F-4E engine moved to AJE (Gated by Blue Sky Node)
<Pap>
I have no idea why those engines were in tehre, I thought I had placed them correctly, I wonder if I accidentally mucked them up later on
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pretty sure the J58 should be moved to AJE as well
<NathanKell|WORK>
AJE was designed to cover the J58 and the first turbofans
<NathanKell|WORK>
(AJE the node)
<NathanKell|WORK>
i.e. developments from the turbojet, namely the turbofan and the turboramjet
<NathanKell|WORK>
Also the F-86's engine should probably go in the first supersonic flight node, not Mature Supersonic
<NathanKell|WORK>
otherwise it would never be used, and it really models more of a 1949 engine than a 1952 engine
<Pap>
OK on the F-86 Engine and OK on the J58, from my readings it was used on the A-12, but made famous on the SR-71
<NathanKell|WORK>
A-12 wasn't until 1962 anyway
<Pap>
Yeah, but that is the HSF node
<NathanKell|WORK>
...wait I thought HSF was 1959
<NathanKell|WORK>
that's what it was in the old tree. Now I'm confused :]
<Pap>
:)
<Bornholio>
!tell taniwha had EB giving a bunch of log spam that looked like it locked me out of input. that or RT locked it up
<Qboid>
Bornholio: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell|WORK>
So what's the node progression now?
<Pap>
Supersonic Plane Development (PW) -> Supersonic Flight (1950-1951) -> Mature Supersonic Flight (1952-1955) -> HDF (1959-1963) -> AJE (1964-1969) and that is where you stop caring about the tree ;) \s
<NathanKell|WORK>
:D
<Pap>
s/HDF/HSF
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: Supersonic Plane Development (PW) -> Supersonic Flight (1950-1951) -> Mature Supersonic Flight (1952-1955) -> HSF (1959-1963) -> AJE (1964-1969) and that is where you stop caring about the tree ;) \s
<Bornholio>
I did a careful inspection of all the engines on paps spreadsheet and put in production and first flight dates for everything non-notional
<Pap>
Bornholio: I made a few changes for gameplay based on NCommander's exploits ;)
<Bornholio>
exploits are just that, not realism
<Pap>
What I noticed is that without Test Flight, I wanted to go with operational dates for Jet Engines, there is no reason for testing earlier (like RL)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ok. And IMO the relevant eras of jet design are WWII and immediate postwar (Derwent V), Korea (J47, Nene, J85), post-Korea (J57, early supersonics), 1959 (J75, late model J57s, early J79), 1963 (Avon, J58, JT8D)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap^
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: So I'd use the start date of the node rather than the end date of the node basically
<Maxsimal>
Hey pap, get that update I sent? No wonder it was confusing, missed defining a variable.
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: that is pretty much exactly what I changed it all to. They are now well balanced for the beginning of the tree!
<Pap>
Maxsimal: Looking now
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Ah, ok. I guess the most important bit IMO is pushing the J58 back to AJE
<Pap>
Yep, that will work best
<NathanKell|WORK>
so you can do Mach 2.8 or so at HSF, but you need rockets for M>3.5 until AJE
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: Wait, I think I missed. You lost someone on reentry?
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: How high was your wing loading?
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, don't remember off hand, but it was the cockpit deciding to sublime through the atmosphere. I managed to save the mission by changing angle they came down on but it was close.
* NCommander
feels good at breaking shat
<NCommander>
I need to find the effort to code contributions, but if I do that, I'll never actually "play" KSP again.
<NathanKell|WORK>
:D
<NathanKell|WORK>
You'd be surprised tho
<NathanKell|WORK>
I went about a year where I didn't play, but RP-0 was fun enough that I actually play it
<egg|nomz|egg>
NCommander: breaking shat?
<NCommander>
egg|nomz|egg, exploiting my way through Pap's tree by finding things he missed
<egg|nomz|egg>
NCommander: breaking that which is shat?
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: An X-1 cockpit and large wings, as I showed, does fine *as long as you maintain good AoA*
<NCommander>
egg|nomz|egg, no, I'd be playing stock+USI if I wanted to do that :) *ducks*
<NathanKell|WORK>
If you come in nose first you're cooked (in more ways than one) due to attached shock
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, Pap: BTW< I did check, you can load additional sciencedefs via MM, it would select them in addition to whats there, so we could add ones to RO in addition to the ones built into RSS.
<egg|nomz|egg>
!wpn NathanKell|WORK
* Qboid
gives NathanKell|WORK a shining mass-driver
<egg|nomz|egg>
!wpn NCommander
* Qboid
gives NCommander a Phoenician clowder
<egg|nomz|egg>
kitties
* NCommander
needs food
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, well, technically, that's true. However, to my knowledge, every RL human suborbitral flight had a heatshield or was a spaceplane.
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: The supersonic wings and X-1 cockpit have better thermal characteristics than Spaceship One
* NCommander
is back
* NCommander
had to eat
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: Are you ok with me changing the volume of the Probe Cores we have in game?
<Maxsimal>
Bornholio: You did procedural avionics, yes? I have early avionics unlocked, which unlocks the first of the 'early' guidance cores, but proc avionics just has options for 'start' and 'postwar' avionics. Is that as intended?
<Pap>
Based on sizes of the model, the 1T Satellite Bus has a volume of 2667.310 L and the Cube Satellite Bus has a volume of 3776.916
<Pap>
1T Satellite Bus has a 516 L tank and can control 1 ton for avionics
<Bornholio>
bornholio did not do luedaimon did
<Pap>
Cube Satellite Bus has a 200 L tank and can control 10 ton for avionics
<Pap>
I guess that actually makes sense
<Pap>
sorta
<Bornholio>
sorta
<Pap>
The 1T Satllite Bus uses 81% of available space for Avionics while the Cube Sat uses 95% for Avioinics
<Pap>
With us adding the Satellite Bus resources, I think we should change these ratios to be 40% taken up with Avionics and 60% available for Tanks, how does that sound?
<Pap>
NCommander: are you still planning on working on some new Science Defs?
<leudaimon|work>
Maxsimal: I didn't test the avionics procedurals, but I created the configs, They are supposed to be configged for the whole tree... Pap, do you know what could be the issue?
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<leudaimon|work>
Pap, about this suggestion of tanks available in avionics, I generally agree, but maybe 50/50? I wish rspakyc had done something similar with the procedurals
<Bornholio>
Pap: agena-D antenna not seeing any RT settings in VAB
<Pap>
Bornholio: what mod?
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: I am looking into the Procedural Avionics
<Pap>
Maxsimal: You have to actually unlock the Procedural Avionics in the provided GUI
<Pap>
Could that be the problem?
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: They look good to me
<leudaimon|work>
ah ok then
<leudaimon|work>
did you get to test them? do you think the numbers look balanced?
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Right click menu -> configure? In that menu I only have the start and post-war avionics, no options to unlock higher.
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: I need to create the Avioics Upgrades for the Tech Tree like the tanks and engines are now
<Pap>
Maxsimal: can you click on Upper Stage in that menu?
<leudaimon|work>
yes Maxsimal
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: I have not played at all in about 2 weeks :(
<Maxsimal>
Pap: No, no upper stage available, just booster - which makes sense, I haven't hit upper stage avionics yet. But I think the problem is just that the configs that I'm seeing are not for your tech tree, perhaps?
<leudaimon|work>
yeah, I'm with a very short time to play too...
<Bornholio>
pap must launch a rocket!
<leudaimon|work>
Maxsimal, if you didn't unlock any uppers, you shouldn't have proc avionics for it too
<leudaimon|work>
the first one unlocks at early avionics
<Maxsimal>
Also, I never had to purchase postwar avionics, even though I see there's a 9000 fund cost for it in the config.
<Pap>
Maxsimal: that happens in that configure menu
<Pap>
Maxsimal: when is the last time that you updated the tree / RO?
<leudaimon|work>
btw, I have to fix these entry costs... found out lower TLs are discounted from the price in the config
<Maxsimal>
Pap: 2, days ago
<Pap>
OK, Maxsimal what avionics techs do you have unlocked?
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Start, Post-war Avionices, and 'Early avionics and probes'. Frankly, i was not expecting to see any configs for proc avionics for 'Postwar Avionics' because there's no guidance cores in it, but I was expecting to see one (with a similar efficiency) in 'Early avionics and probes' since you get the Early 1m guidance unit in that node
<Bornholio>
knew it, now what is messed up. sigh
<Pap>
Maxsimal: for procedural avioinics, we did not expressly follow the guidance cores that are configged, they were just put where gameplay necessitated. Once you unlocked Early Avionics, you should have unlocked the Procedural Avionics Upper Stage config though
<Maxsimal>
Oops, sorry, I meant I had Start, Post-war Avionics, and Avionics Prototypes, and I expected to see the new config in Avionics prototypes. My mistake.
<Pap>
Ahhh, yes, there is not an additional one there. I am going to release the tech tree icons for the avionics today. It is too confusing otherwise
<leudaimon|work>
prototypes has the 20in xray, which is a huge gain and the first proper science core, I thought it would be imbalanced to also have an upper stage there
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Cool
<Maxsimal>
Why do you say the 20inch x-ray is a huge gain?
<leudaimon|work>
very light, a good amount of EC, and tiny energy consumption, you can do a lot with it
<Maxsimal>
ok, well, for what I'm doing at this point in the game, I don't need any long duration satellites - no moon shots yet - so it's just a worse sounding rocket core.
<leudaimon|work>
if people decide to place an upper stage in that node, I could add a config for procedurals... just think it's a little too early
<Maxsimal>
Agreed that it's too early for an upper stage.
* NCommander
feels ill :/
<NCommander>
ugh
<leudaimon|work>
you mentioned there is a booster avionics there... there isn't one in PostWar, is it?
<Maxsimal>
It's the one for postwar, yes, there's none for avionics prototypes
<leudaimon|work>
but there is a non-procedural one?
<Maxsimal>
Yup, the 'early guidance core 1m'. It's ok, I was just expecting proc-avionics to kind of follow the non-proc ones, i can understand that that's not the case.
egg|nomz|egg is now known as egg
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<leudaimon|work>
the position of the non-procedurals changed a little while I was making these configs, just remind me... the 1m starting is in the start node, right? the only difference is that the procedural tier 2 comes one node earlier than non procedural?
<Maxsimal>
The one meter starting is in the start node, yes. And you're right, only difference is that procedural tier two comes earlier than the non-procedural. Also the non-procedural in Avionics prototypes has a better mass-to-control ratio than the procedural in Postwar - which makes sense.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: apologies, back.
<leudaimon|work>
in general, I made the procedurals slightly worse than the non-procedurals, given you can increase utilization and get a lot better
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: I seem to recall us discussing swapping the Octo and Octo2 models, since they were designed to be fat and thin, respectively, but RO makes the Octo thin to be Surveyor, and we were talking about making the octo2 (early controllable) fat!
<NathanKell|WORK>
But in general I definitely support sane-izing the literage
<leudaimon|work>
not to mention the fact that by tweaking it to the exact size of your booster you get more efficiency
<NathanKell|WORK>
The ECC (octo2) probably should just have 7200EC and no room for anything else, tbh, and *still* have to be taller than it is
* NCommander
looks at the science definitions
<Maxsimal>
leudaimon: Yeah it's fine. really it was just that, I expected to be unlocked procedurals at the same time as the non-procedurals. When pap adds icons for them in the tech nodes that'll be clearer.
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<leudaimon|work>
cool
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: I would suspect that the numbers should be something like 90% avionics volume for the ECC, 75% for Mariner, dropping to maybe 60% for Ranger and 50% for 1t bus
<NathanKell|WORK>
but that would depend on the visual size
<leudaimon|work>
you are probably one of the first ones testing those, so please tell me about balancing
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Perhaps a better way to do it is to pick good numbers for proc avionics and port them back, to get an idea of the volume of a given avionics controllable tonnage at a given tech level
<NathanKell|WORK>
and then the remainder of the volume of the item should be tankage
<leudaimon|work>
lol we are starting going in circles here... Proc avionics started by comparing to the non-proc ones
<NathanKell|WORK>
Heh
<Maxsimal>
leudaimon: Will do, that's why I was mentioning it here.
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: I am comfortable with the mass per controllable ton and wattage per
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: but I never cared much about volume, so...
<leudaimon|work>
but NathanKell|WORK I'm not exactly disageeing with you... I tried to make procedurals thinking more about balance than exactly matching the non-procedurals
<leudaimon|work>
looking for a general progression
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: FYI I did change things the other day, so Mariner (Ranger block I) has a better mass:controllable ratio than it did
<NathanKell|WORK>
it's now ~4.7 tonnes per tonne, instead of worse than ECC (which was 4)
<NathanKell|WORK>
so it fits well between there and Ranger Block III (which is 6)
<leudaimon|work>
ah, that is cool, it was just weird that it was worse than ECC
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah, my original thinking was the savings from lower wattage, but that's not so useful
<NathanKell|WORK>
so, fixed
<leudaimon|work>
:)
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<leudaimon|work>
to make them more comparable regarding to volume, it would be nice to have tanks implemented in the proc. avionics... rspakyc had said he would look into it, but he is probably staying away for some time now
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: I think your idea about working from Procedurals Backwards makes a lot of sense. leudaimon|Work has put a lot of work into making the Procedural Avioinics sane and progression based
<leudaimon|work>
:) thanks Pap
<leudaimon|work>
but thinking about the values NathanKell|WORK just mentioned for the probe cores, maybe I made a very fast progression in the cores
<leudaimon|work>
I'll correct that I guess... start with 4T/T and raise more slowly
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: I just looked at it, based on NathanKell|WORK numbers, this is what you could shoot for maybe...
* NCommander
is writing scince defs based on what he can learn from the internet
<NCommander>
This won't end well
<Pap>
NCommander: Earth is Flat
<Pap>
Read it on the internet
<NCommander>
// ** Europa
<NCommander>
EuropaSrfLanded = You feel uneasy as you collect the sample, as though you weren't supposed to attempt a landing here
<NCommander>
EuropaSrfLanded = As you chip away at the ice, you spot a piece of smooth black metal with unusual magentic properties.
* NCommander
walks away
<Pap>
NCommander: was that movie terrible?
<NCommander>
Pap, never saw 2010. I read the book though
<NCommander>
Pap, beside, THe Martain references were already here before I got to it
<Pap>
lol
<Pap>
Those kinds of things are fun little Easter Eggs
<NathanKell|WORK>
^
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: Check the link in the channel's topic? That has all the work on science logs so far
<NathanKell|WORK>
IIRC it's not been exported yet?
<NathanKell|WORK>
the "HELP HERE" link
<NCommander>
I must be blind, or hexchat is cutting it short
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: We have talked about it before, but wondering if you think it is necessary (from your playthrough) to have duplicate Satellite Bus Resources to not be able to double up on missions?
<leudaimon|work>
Pap, NathanKell|WORK made a PR with the unlock costs fix and also these tweaks to the probe cores... see what you think
<NCommander>
spotted it
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: cool!
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, I was going to do a pull request ...
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: That's even better!
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: Export it yourself and make it a PR :P
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, that was what I was going to do
<NathanKell|WORK>
NCommander: Wait, now that I think...I think someone did most of that already? You'll probably have to cross check. Sorry! :(
<NathanKell|WORK>
Looks like science results are spread between RSS *and* RP-0...
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, oh, I was working off the ScienceDefs files in Pap's branch for the experiments that RO adds.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Sorry, yeah, wrong branch, that shoulda been Pap-TechTree
<NCommander>
NathanKell|WORK, RSS has most of the definitions for situations, but most of the RO ones only have generic or none at all
<NathanKell|WORK>
I *think* RP-0 may delete all results first, so if you want stuff to show up, do it in RP-0
<NathanKell|WORK>
to get rid of the 'jokey' ones
<NathanKell|WORK>
well, the kerbal ones
<NathanKell|WORK>
jokes are okish :]
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: that EC curve seems reasonable to me, although perhaps the Early hibernating numbers should be higher
<NathanKell|WORK>
maybe something like 250/50, 100/10, 53/1, etc
<leudaimon|work>
for the beggining I based on the ECC and RAnger I... also, if I do that, there is no reason left not to use an upper stage as a probe core I think...
<leudaimon|work>
btw, we should really find some way to differentiate those better
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Btw I haven't heard anything from magico, have you?
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: Upper stages usually don't hibernate
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agena is a weirdo
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: Nope
<Pap>
Bornholio: did you see the images I linked earlier of the Era icons in the tree?
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: Ok, so I guess let's stick with your numbers then, and leave upper stage hibernation more expensive
<Bornholio>
yes look perfect
<Pap>
Bornholio: So that is what you had in mind?
<leudaimon|work>
hmm, so I should change that in the config, to remove hibernation from the upper stages?
<Bornholio>
pap yes they do, should convey the ide solidly
<Bornholio>
idea
<NCommander>
I need to find a list of all of Saturn's moons
<Pap>
ok good
<Pap>
NCommander: all of them!? or the ones in RSS?
<NCommander>
RSS
<NCommander>
Pap, I'm writing science definitions cause I need to do something and I don't feel like running a mission
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work, Pap yeah I definitely think we might need to 'fatten' the ECC a bit. I'm getting a usable volume of about 16 liters, yeah?
<leudaimon|work>
if hibernation became a toggleable, we could charge a lot for it, would be a better solution, but I don't think it is possible now
UmbralRaptor is now known as CapitolRaptor
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: hibernation is a stock feature as of 1.2, there's no need for RP-0 to do it anymore
<leudaimon|work>
hmmm
<NathanKell|WORK>
but yeah, proc avionics would need to hook into that
<leudaimon|work>
yeah, I have no idea of the inner workings, just the configs
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: you ran the actual volume numbers on the ECC at some point IIRC?
<Pap>
I don't think that I did for the ECC, but I think Bornholio did. Que?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Anyway, something like 100 liters/tonne for the ECC sounds about right (it would make it 20 liters for 200kg, and we'd have to stretch it a bit to leave 7.2 liters for electricity, which we could do by doubling its height)
<NathanKell|WORK>
then decreasing to something like 70 liters/tonne for Mariner, 50 liters/tonne by Ranger Block III (30 liters for it, the rest of the space for tankage), 30 for surveyor, 15 for some hypothetical early 70s thing, and maybe 1 liter/tonne or less for cube sat
<leudaimon|work>
:) doubling its height was my starting point to config the ECC-like core procedural in the "old" tech tree
<NathanKell|WORK>
brb, think imma go home early, got enough done and the team all left :]
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<leudaimon|work>
btw, I did not touch avionics density along the progression, especially for boosters and uppers the parts are too small already without doing that
<leudaimon|work>
I guess I'll touch that only after the possibility of adding tanks to the "spare" space is implemented
<NCommander>
Pap, thanks. I want to make sure there are at least comments making it obvious what else needs to be added
<Bornholio>
pap 18l is what i cam up with
<Pap>
Thanks Bornholio
<Bornholio>
line includes ECC is 5.6g/cm3 if you want to search back to that
<NCommander>
KSP-RO:pap1723-ROupdates and NCommander:NC-ScienceDefs are entirely different commit histories.
* NCommander
kicks github
<Pap>
NCommander: that is because yours was probably made from the Master (possibly)?
<NCommander>
Pap, no, it's based off your branch
<NCommander>
Prev commit on the branch is pap1723 committed a day ago
<regex>
Are there more building upgrade tiers in RP-0? I upgraded the launchpad and it still looks like shit.
<Bornholio>
7
<regex>
Good fucking lord...
<Bornholio>
and 7 for the R&D
<NCommander>
Bornholio, why is it the VAB is still upgradable. Seems pointless
<Bornholio>
it upgrades the build slots and build rate
leudaimon|work has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
<regex>
Same with the R&D building?
<regex>
upgrades the research time?
<Bornholio>
similar
<Bornholio>
I don't think it can allow concurrent research like VAB can allow concurrent building
<Pap>
regex: The large icons in the Tree are called Blue Sky Nodes. They essentailly stop the player from progressing way ahead in one type of technology. The R&D levels are tied to those. So the seoncd Blue Sky Node cannot be researched without a Level 2 R&D building
<Pap>
It also increases the speed of the research unlocks
<regex>
Huh, okay
<NCommander>
I'm sick of having this shitty interne
<NCommander>
^t
<regex>
Why is the bio cannister so big?
<Pap>
regex: Fruit flies are very large
<regex>
Mice too, I guess.
<Pap>
And squirrels
<Bornholio>
laika is shoved in there
<Pap>
Literally, shoved
<regex>
I see I'm going to have to hack some parts.
<Pap>
lol
<Bornholio>
ISS experiment 451294 do mice continue to $#%@ is zero gravity
<regex>
The RO mantra "Nothing ever gets fixed..."
<Pap>
NathanKell: According to Bornholio the ECC is 18L
<NathanKell>
cool! So double-height would be 36L, which fits everything perfectly
<NathanKell>
Might even go to 125L/tonne
<gazpachian>
o/
<Qboid>
gazpachian: NathanKell|WORK left a message for you in #RO [07.07.2017 18:17:20]: "it's been too long, sorry, I don't recall :("
<NathanKell>
If you lose control it hits 9, that I recall.
<NathanKell>
But it's probably something like 6 if you do it right
<Bornholio>
nice scam paypal email, shortened response link "your acount will be limited"
<gazpachian>
Yeah, was wondering since I have trouble getting my suborbitals in below 7
<gazpachian>
at least with the early cockpits
<NathanKell>
Higher the entry angle, higher the Gs
<gazpachian>
exactly, so you have to trade off horizontal velocity -> more heating
<NathanKell>
exactly
<Maxsimal>
A lot of space agency stuff lately seems like it might have originated in kerbal space program - what was that ESA thing where they're planning to use a turboprop glider to recover engines?
<regex>
OT: If you can get this in your area try it, it's one of the few Ninkasi beers that isn't stupidly over-hopped: http://i.imgur.com/SRTcTts.jpg
<Pap>
Don't know if I'll get to watch live. Make sure you read the description before you luaunch it, you'll be timed
Pap is now known as Pap|AFK
<NathanKell>
oooh that's cool Pap|AFK!
<NCommander>
++
<regex>
blowfish: thanks for the clarification
<Maxsimal>
Pap: That is a cool contract, should do one like that for the moon, pre-manned landing, to scout landing sites.
<regex>
So on this line:
<regex>
node_stack_bottom = 0,-0.835,0,0,-1,0,2
<regex>
is the second number the height (Y) offset?
<Bornholio>
yes
<regex>
Thanks
<Bornholio>
X,Y,Z,O,A,T,Size
<regex>
O,A,T?
<Bornholio>
Rx, Ry, Rz vectors instead or angles
<Bornholio>
of
<NathanKell>
Maxsimal: YESSS
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<regex>
KK, thanks
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn NathanKell|Twitch
* Qboid
gives NathanKell|Twitch a finite extinguisher
egg|zzz|egg is now known as egg|df|egg
* egg|df|egg
is not actually zzz
<regex>
You never do, egg|df|egg
<egg|df|egg>
regex: hmm
<lamont>
just did 3-stage PEG to orbit
<Qboid>
lamont: egg|afk|egg left a message for you in #RO [07.07.2017 08:05:08]: "so, I would suggest that for high-energy trajectory you try to make do with conic approximations for now, since many of your optimization targets seem to rely on central-body things. With principia you'll need more TCMs after launch, but hopefully it should do the job."
<Qboid>
lamont: egg|afk|egg left a message for you in #RO [07.07.2017 08:09:21]: "for launches into low-energy transfers like GRAIL http://ccar.colorado.edu/asen5050/projects/projects_2012/truesdale/img/grail.jpg (note the drift between launch window opening and closing) you would actually need principia, but principia still needs eggstensive work to be able to plan such a thing from the ground anyway"
<egg|df|egg>
oh hi
egg|df|egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<lamont>
lol
<lamont>
yeah so TL;DR is “do what the professionals do”
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: a recurring theme with principia is that our problem is nonspecific, so it's more general than what the professionals do
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: you don't have a specific mission, so the space of things to make work is *big*
<lamont>
right, but for high energy stuff, patched conics works for mission planning
<egg|zzz|egg>
sure
<lamont>
low energy transfer mission planning would of course not work — kind of inherent to the problem space
<egg|zzz|egg>
well, it's not that it would not work
<egg|zzz|egg>
it's that it would be work
<egg|zzz|egg>
:D
<egg|zzz|egg>
eventually we'll get to it
<egg|zzz|egg>
*tosses onto the pile of things to do in principia*
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<lamont>
but those “dont work” in stock patchy conics at all, which is a huge hint that you’ll need tight integration with principia’s trajectory stuff to do mission planning
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: same for orbit propagation, we need to do something that's fast enough, locally accurate enough when stuff is fast, but also that has no systematic drift in energy on long scales, which is a tricky combination
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: oh absolutely
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: it's probably something that we'd like to mostly drive from our side
<lamont>
so here’s a concrete question
<egg|zzz|egg>
because if you need tight integration lemme tell you you *do not* want to do it through the cdecl interface mess :D
<egg|zzz|egg>
(generated from proto \o/)
<lamont>
mechjeb immeidately likes to throw a dashboard in front of you with junk on it like “apoapsis” and “periapsis” and “time to apoapsis” and such, which are all pulled off of Vessel.Orbit.stuff
<lamont>
so what is gonna happen if a module asks for those values?
<egg|zzz|egg>
Sarbian: also if you're interested in watching/taking part in the discussion, ping
<lamont>
NRE? on the orbit? or NaN on the API?
<egg|zzz|egg>
Sarbian: also maybe I might go to paris for work soonish, will keep you updated
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: what do you mean
<lamont>
i suppose i should just fire it up and create a trivial mod that debug logs stuff
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: I really don't get what you mean
<egg|zzz|egg>
there's no Principia API at the moment
<egg|zzz|egg>
so
<egg|zzz|egg>
I really don't understand where you're going here
<lamont>
but if i load up principia with a module that just does…
<egg|zzz|egg>
does what
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: principia sets the vessel's orbit at every frame (or just moves the vessel and lets KSP compute its conic)
<lamont>
Debug.Log(“ApA = “ + vessel.orbit.ApA);
<lamont>
ah
<egg|zzz|egg>
so you'll see an osculating conic
<egg|zzz|egg>
that's what happens, right now, in game
<egg|zzz|egg>
you don't declare a Position, you always have a Position<WhicheverFrame> (and because dimensional analysis etc., a Position is not a Displacement, which is not a Velocity)
<lamont>
ack C++
<lamont>
my eyes!
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: it's about equal parts C++ and comments, so it's a dilute solution :-p
<lamont>
hahahaaha
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: oooh also compile-time date parsing and timescale conversion, because we can
<egg|zzz|egg>
(counting leap seconds at compile time!)
<regex>
at what G loading will the Aerobee get vapor in the fuel lines? I'm subjecting it to like, 16 G and whenever I stage away the solids it breaks.
<lamont>
so is Position<SunReference> or something the closest you have to Planetarium co-ordinates?
<lamont>
regex: are you using mechjeb? and are you using one of my dev builds or not?
<regex>
Not using it actively on a sounding rocket launch
<regex>
but it's installed.
<lamont>
yes installed is what i mean
<regex>
Will that do it?
<lamont>
most likely go into utilities and uncheck “prevent unstable ignitions"
<regex>
Well, it ignites just fine, I run it while the solids are going.
<egg|zzz|egg>
Barycentric, Navigation, Camera (WIP) are sensible, the rest are for KSP compatibility
<egg|zzz|egg>
Navigation in the plotting frame or the manoeuvre frames
<egg|zzz|egg>
Camera will be the frame of the camera, evidently enough
<egg|zzz|egg>
s/in the/is the
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg meant to say: Navigation is the plotting frame or the manoeuvre frames
<lamont>
gah, inverse rotation threshold
<regex>
Oh yup, thanks lamont
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: ?
<regex>
fuggin weird, makes no sense, but thanks
<lamont>
yeah that should be better in dev builds, i wrote it for rocket stages that had a way to ullage, not for sounding rockets that had no way to increase their own ullage
<regex>
nope.
<regex>
still happening, my bad.
<lamont>
egg: “occasionally rotating with its surface”
<lamont>
oh
<regex>
let me try again
<lamont>
then i got nothing
<lamont>
oh
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: ah, yes :D
<lamont>
tank needs to be pressurized
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: eventually we'll want to manage vessels even when the frame is rotating
<lamont>
if you’re using like default tanks on top of an aerobee the tank won’t be pressurized, and then you’ll get “vapor in the feedlines”. you should be able to even see that in the VAB though if you click on the engine it should say it there.
<regex>
lamont, it is, using fuselage. Like I said, engine ignites on the pad alongside the solids, as soon as the solids cut out it gets vapor in the fuel lines.
<regex>
I'm assuming because G loading shifts too quickly
<NathanKell|Twitch>
because without the solid's thrust, drag is more than the aerobee will offer
<NathanKell|Twitch>
so you're slowing down despite thrust
<NathanKell|Twitch>
(that's my guess)
<NathanKell|Twitch>
pic of rocket?
<lamont>
oh, its the RCS ullage problem
<NathanKell|Twitch>
?
<Bornholio>
use lamonts fix :)
<lamont>
(RCS insufficient to overcome drag so the propellant sloshes forwards)
<lamont>
(in my head that is the “RCS ullage problem” because I keep track of things that way — its my own filing system…)
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: the tracking issue for tracking things in the rotating frame is principia#1413, the reunification of the ferram4 and egg sectors
<Qboid>
[#1413] title: Some stock bodies have peaks that are higher than the time warp limit | For example, Minmus highest points are around 5-6 km, but the timewarp limit is 3 km, making landing at these locations impossible with Principia.... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1413
<lamont>
thunderdome: egg vs. ferram — they square off at the inverse rotation threshold and take 30 paces, turn and fire…
<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: well, at the edge of the atmosphere really
Ramh5 has joined #RO
<regex>
Yeah, I'm thinking I'm just subjecting it to too many Gs.
<regex>
just wondering if anyone knows how many is too much...
<Ramh5>
hi I am having problems with MJ and/or persistent rotation, when I ask MJ to execute next node, when it warps the ships moves away from the node and warp stops and so on
<Ramh5>
wasting all of the RCS
<regex>
Actually that makes no sense because my earlier Aerobee went from 34 to 38 Gs.
<lamont>
yeah too high of Gs won’t cause that
<Bornholio>
mrahm5 is smartrcs on
<NathanKell|Twitch>
regex: It's not that
<NathanKell|Twitch>
It's that you're accelerating too fast first
<Ramh5>
that would be smart ASS?
<NathanKell|Twitch>
so your speed at burnout of solids is high enough that drag is higher than your thrust
<NathanKell|Twitch>
unless that's what you mean
<Bornholio>
there is a RCS overdrive function inside of one of the MJ rcs functiosn
<Bornholio>
it gives me problems
<NathanKell|Twitch>
regex: thrust limit your solids?
<regex>
I'd be accelerating even faster on the earlier Aerobee so I have no idea what you mean.
<Bornholio>
not in smart A.S.S.
<regex>
It's in the screencap above
<regex>
Maybe I need another nosecone...
<Ramh5>
Bornholio: when I ask MJ to execute next node it deactivates what ever stability assists there was and steers towards the node, then it warps but with persistent rotation on it just does not work
<lamont>
@Ramh5 is your MJ build very old? newer 1.2.x MJ should center once on the node, then warp and not care, then drop out of warp closer to T-5 min or so to the estimated burntime and then it gets a bit fussy about the node being on target and warp
<lamont>
also hit “deactivate” on persistent rotation so both things are red
<NathanKell|Twitch>
lamont: Since playing this career MJ will never warp up after node alignment
<NathanKell|Twitch>
I always have to warp up and then down, and *then* it does
<NathanKell|Twitch>
I think it never sees 0 angular velocity
<NathanKell|Twitch>
or something
<lamont>
yeah that’s a different glitch
<Ramh5>
lamont: I have MJ 2.6.0
<lamont>
and yeah the node exector is a bit too picky about trying to get zero angular momentum but the PID has a larger deadzone i think
<lamont>
but if you just tap warp then MJ should take off
<lamont>
heh, i have no idea when it was fixed
leudaimon has joined #RO
<lamont>
you should use the latest dev build of MJ for 1.2.x at least
<Ramh5>
lamont: I have the one CKAN gave me, I should get it from github instead?
<lamont>
you can install the MJ dev source in CKAN
<lamont>
i think there’s a drop down in the gui somewhere
<Ramh5>
ok
<regex>
yeah, god damnit, it ain't drag either. the fuck is going on?
<Bornholio>
says the guy making his own builds
<lamont>
`ckan repo add MechJeb2-dev`
<Bornholio>
quad tims?
<lamont>
yeah but i’m also a software developer that uses at least 3 or 4 different package management systems at $dayjob, and install most mods I’m not actively hacking on with CKAN
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<taniwha>
Bornholio: while it's vaguely possible EB is locking out input, the code I used has always been reliable before
<Qboid>
taniwha: Bornholio left a message for you in #RO [07.07.2017 18:35:36]: "had EB giving a bunch of log spam that looked like it locked me out of input. that or RT locked it up"
<Bornholio>
k is there any updates i should use just in case its old
<Bornholio>
don't want to waste your tiem with log spam from old code
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQKx3
<SlainteMaith>
Monitor died. I'm using a ersatz monitor instead. This one can do a third the resolution of the dead one. =( Kerbal isn't worth it, since the UI is all REALLY REALLY BIG now. (Yes, I descaled it)
<taniwha>
Bornholio: I haven't touched anything near the locking code, so your current logs should be fine
<soundnfury>
Pap|AFK: why does FirstSolarSat depend on Karman Uncrewed rather than on Orbit Uncrewed?