<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oWp
<github> RP-0/Developmental 8fc6fd7 NathanKell: Allow swapping in and out.
<Bornholio> the 50% utilization thing for SM bit me on a contract. it displayed a larger number, then later wondering what went wrong i canme back and four the utilization snapped to 50 and i had 60% of the sounding payload i had though
<NathanKell> Ah I missed a line I think
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7olt
<github> RP-0/Developmental 7bd3a37 NathanKell: Set initial utilizations
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<schnobs> is fuel/ox-rich even a serious consideration IRL? I'd expect that there's other reasons besides ISP.
<Bornholio> turbopump temps
<schnobs> Like, don't dump unburned hydrazine.
<Bornholio> bearing crossflow
<schnobs> I know that there are LOX-rich pumps, but I seem to recall that they took some development effort.
<schnobs> Circa 1960, I'd expect that it wasn't even a question.
<ferram4> Well, I know that the LR-87 and LR-91 burned fuel-rich, so... they were dumping unburned aerozine.
<blowfish> well, it wouldn't have still been aerozine in the exhaust
<Bornholio> hot hydrazine hits air.....
<blowfish> it would have been some combiniation of ammonium, nitrogen, and hydrogen
<Bornholio> Finding what tank i forgot to tool is an annoying task
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7o8U
<github> RP-0/Developmental c9ecc43 NathanKell: Add constant half-day.
<NathanKell> \o/ crew stuff seems to work fine now!
<NathanKell> Ready to go.
<NathanKell> Verified in stock KSP for now
<NathanKell> Now I need to hijack some tooltips.
<Bornholio> is there a formula that drives the sounding rocket reward?
<NathanKell> Bornholio: that's for Maxsimal
<NathanKell> ok, fingers crossed I got the tooltips working
<lamont> oh my fucking god
<Bornholio> Ron jeremy?
<lamont> “Relative Inclination 0.00”
<Bornholio> nice
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<NathanKell> Hah! Got 'em!
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7o8a
<github> RP-0/Developmental e66e74a NathanKell: Now with info in the AC!
<NathanKell> Ok! Crew R&R&R is ready for prime time!
<lamont> i need to clean this up and get you a build
<lamont> you’re never going to believe it
<blowfish> lamont: launch into plane of target that actually works
<blowfish> ?
<Bornholio> Lamont I can only Jizz my shorts so many times
<lamont> yeah, does it ever work
<lamont> jogs south like a mofo
<NathanKell> Wow awesome lamont!
<NathanKell> lamont: Please tell me it's not replacing the old one
<lamont> yeah it is
<NathanKell> Nooooo
<NathanKell> but muh career
<NathanKell> I wanted to unlock different APs at different avionics techs
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<lamont> hrm?
<Pap|AFK> I was hoping for unlocks as well
<lamont> you were working on patching it?
<NathanKell> What I want is, at the start, only pitch program allowed (but mutlistage if possible). Then PEG. Then PEGAS.
<Pap|AFK> Start with simple old school ascent guidance, then to peg then to pegas
<Pap|AFK> Damn, ninjaed
<NathanKell> err, IGM between PEG and PEGAS if possible obvs
<lamont> ohhh
<lamont> erhm
<NathanKell> You already support different AP modes
<NathanKell> why not add PEGAS as a new one?
<Pap|AFK> Igm is Iterative Guidance Mode?
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7o8N
<github> RP-0/Developmental ba0e9ca NathanKell: Help text, because I care.
<NathanKell> Pap|AFK: yeah, the Saturn IU
<lamont> so the thing is that all three algorithms are fairly equivalent
<NathanKell> well, PEG doesn't support changing azimuth
<NathanKell> that's a biggie
<NathanKell> or does it?
<lamont> yeah it does, i just didn’t program it
<NathanKell> oh
<lamont> the old PEG code is just a PITA of sum of sum of sum so sum of recursive thrust integral nastiness
<ferram4> That sounds familiar.
<Pap|AFK> NathanKell as part of the GUI, is there going to be a place to see the tooling that you have purchased already?
<lamont> so i got to N-stage 2-dimensional and it got fairly brutal
<NathanKell> Pap|AFK: Oh. Right. That'd be useful wouldn't it.
<ferram4> Nah, we can just guess.
<NathanKell> I don't even know where to begin on that.
<lamont> the old code could also have done lunar plane targetting
<ferram4> Are you still using the right-click menu for these things?
<NathanKell> yeah
<NathanKell> Because I HATE GUIS
<ferram4> I have a solution for selecting those in a GUI that you guys can steal.
<NathanKell> oh awesome!
<NathanKell> Oh right the thing you just wrote
<ferram4> No, actually.
<NathanKell> ?
<ferram4> It's the dropdown thing that's been in FAR a long time.
<ferram4> I ported it over for this.
<Pap|AFK> Between trying to figure out what tanks I have tooled and what my damn fuel mixture is going to be in order to squeeze that little bit extra Delta-v out because of ferram, I'm going to launch a rocket a damn real time week!
<lamont> it might be better to just use this PEG code and build in switches for disabling N-stage and/or azimuth targetting if you want
<ferram4> It allows you to select any T from an array of T[] with any string[] used to identify them.
<ferram4> I don't see why it couldn't be adapted over to use lists for dynamic resizing of it.
<ferram4> NathanKell, look at GUIDropdown in either FAR's EditorGUI folder or ProcEngines' EngineGUI.
<NathanKell> lamont: Ok. Makes sense to me
<NathanKell> lamont: My other ask is, as I mentioned, multi-step pitch program
<NathanKell> because that alone (sans PEG) would be great for early ascents
<NathanKell> Juno, Vangaurd, Thor-Able, etc
<NathanKell> Even R-7 probably.
<NathanKell> Then that + PEG could model, say, Titan II (or Saturn) with their multi-step pitch programs
<lamont> do you have an example of that? i’ve still never found what e.g. saturn used
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<NathanKell> I found what Titan used
<ferram4> NathanKell, so if you wanted to GUI that, you'd convert that over to use lists rather than arrays, allow new entries to be added (probably include a sorting feature) and then add the tooled stuff to it as needed.
<NathanKell> and you can use Bob Braeunig's Saturn launch sim broadly
<NathanKell> ferram4: Yeah
<lamont> yeah i just got there via google
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<ferram4> NathanKell, ACTUALLY
<ferram4> You could trigger the selection GUI straight from the right-click menu
<ferram4> Because it creates a new window and locks inputs.
<ferram4> Menu auto-adds a scrollbar if needed.
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<NathanKell> lamont: That covers tilt sequence, although doesn't mention the data.
<NathanKell> ferram4: Yeah.
<lamont> yeah i found the pitch angle table
<NathanKell> Yep, that will be great!
<NathanKell> lamont: That table is too course tho, no?
<NathanKell> 'The pitch program is defined by the pitch polynomial variable F[x][y] in the scenario table. This four segment polynomial allows the LVDC to generate a commanded pitch attitude based only upon the time since launch' <<< so it's probably in the NASSP source
<lamont> yeah but what does your API look like in order to tweak that?
<lamont> i doubt you want to insert polynomial coefficients into edit boxes in mechjeb
<NathanKell> lamont: I don't suggest doing the IGM way. I just suggesting allowing, say, a max of four pitch rates.
<NathanKell> 5, with the first hardcoded to 0d/s maybe.
<NathanKell> so x seconds at y pitch rate
<Bornholio> ^ that would be nice
<lamont> could probably do N pitch rates, its just a matter of having a button to add another entry to an array and then display an editbox for it
<NathanKell> That's best yeah
<NathanKell> then you could have 0 pitch during staging events
<NathanKell> and arbitrary levels
<lamont> 0 pitch-dot
<Bornholio> for sounding rockets i'm always fumbling with SmartAss to do this
<lamont> yeah we should probably unhook the manual pitch rate stuff from PEG guidance at some point
<NathanKell> ^
<lamont> in my head when i wrote it it felt like it all went together because i was thinking about stock-UI-vs-RSS-UI, but there’s also the manual/guided split
<lamont> and that’d be an obvious career unlock
<lamont> because PEG guided sounding rockets is mildly ridiculous
<NathanKell> :D
<NathanKell> Heck, even PEG-guided Vanguard is pretty wacky
<NathanKell> or MRLV
<NathanKell> Starwaster: uh...I see no difference in insulation or wall thickness or conduction between Default tanks and Cryogenic tanks....?
<NathanKell> Starwaster: Also conduction goes 16->22 for Balloon LOX, but stays 205->205 for Balloon LH2.
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<NathanKell> Are those bugs?
<Starwaster> no
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<Starwaster> tank thickness probably should be the same. I left the possibility open to customize them
<NathanKell> Balloon wall thickness is different yes
<Starwaster> insulation is primarily SOFI and isn't going to change much if at all
<Starwaster> there is another insualtive quality that you probably overlooked
<NathanKell> ya?
<NathanKell> I'm looking at the TANK defs for Default and Cryo.
<NathanKell> And they are identical.
<Starwaster> look at TANK_DEFINITION
<NathanKell> For LH2 I mean
<Starwaster> 0.0005
<NathanKell> LOX changes
<Starwaster> that's right, like I said: SOFI
<Starwaster> not going to change a lot
<NathanKell> Ah gotcha
<Starwaster> the outerInsulationFactor is where the two TANK_DEFINITION types change
<NathanKell> yeah
<Starwaster> that is used to directly change the skin-internal conduction factor
<NathanKell> ok
<Starwaster> basically think MLI
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<NathanKell> What I am wanting to do at present is make cryogenic no longer a tank type but something independent of it--so you can pick a given tank, and then pick insulation level
<Starwaster> what kind of time table do you want that to happen on? Because I've had some ideas about that myself
<NathanKell> Ah, I was thinking of writing it this evening if that's ok :]
<NathanKell> but if you're already working on it, don't lemme step on toes
<NathanKell> what ideas did you have on that?
<NathanKell> I was just going to see if there were a linear->many function I could plop a single number into and get reasonable outputs for mass, insulation, etc
<Starwaster> what I've been wanting to do is to instead of using that to modify the part properties is to instead use the lockheed formula for MLI and let the player determine how many layers are added
<NathanKell> Ah that'd be awesome!
<Starwaster> for cryogenics, you want a combination of MLI + SOFI. You're not going to see a lot of advances I don't think in spray on which is why the cryo / default tank defs didn't change
<NathanKell> yeah
<Starwaster> I have the formula worked out for MLI on spreadshead but not committed to code
<NathanKell> Historically, what I'd want to model:
<NathanKell> (a) ice forming, providing insulation for LOX on launch
<NathanKell> (b) early insulation (as used on, say, Block L)
<NathanKell> (c) spray-on insulation
<Starwaster> I figure the Cryogenic / Cryogenic Balloon would have a default MLI layer setting that would replace the existing outer insulation factor
<Bornholio> why is the x-1 tank not pressurized when the x-1 engine is pressure fed....
<NathanKell> and (d) Dewar flasks for SMs I guess
<NathanKell> Bornholio: It should be....
<NathanKell> weird
<Bornholio> ah maybe its mee not having EC
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<Bornholio> lol
<Starwaster> have you looked at the service module type? I kind of fudged the existing conductivity system to simulate dewar type performance
<NathanKell> yep
<Starwaster> it works reasonably well for SM of Apollo size or Orion size
<NathanKell> Indeed
<leudaimon> \o
<Qboid> leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 19:15:28]: "https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oify23mazfma7h7/AACDhQF1JoxG8hxKlhA_Px7Za?dl=0"
<Starwaster> also... not sure if you know but the SM type creates boiloff product that can be stored
<Bornholio> and in just the XLR-11?
<NathanKell> I did see yep! :)
<NathanKell> Bornholio: ?
<NathanKell> is what?
<Starwaster> so you can have liquid H2 / LOX and not waste the gas (even though technically they were supercritical gasses)
<leudaimon> hey, do I need all these files to run the new dev?
<NathanKell> leudaimon: you need RP-0 and RO dev branches
<NathanKell> then you need an RF dll
<leudaimon> ok, so I don't need the other files in this link you shared?
<Starwaster> NathanKell have to AFK for maybe half an hour or so, BBIAB. Have to take care of somet things
<NathanKell> right, the dropbox link before was messing up
<NathanKell> so I just shared the folder
<NathanKell> Starwaster: o/
<lamont> hmmm, hotstaging still a bit wonky...
<leudaimon> ok cool
<Bornholio> nope hyper edit in some ec and no go...
<leudaimon> I'll set it up now, probably will be able to play some tomorrow \o/
<lamont> rocket is doing less of a jog south and more of a drifting powerslide
<leudaimon> btw, what version of FASA are you using?
<NathanKell> Whatever the current RO-FASA release was
<leudaimon> nice, I'll try it again... at least for the gemini pod which is nicer than the K2
<lamont> The FASA and the Furious
<lamont> florida drift
<NathanKell> cool!
<leudaimon> is autoprune working in the current version?
<NathanKell> NoNonRP0 or the AutoPruner?
<NathanKell> first yes, second probably?
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<leudaimon> the actual autopruner, to get rid of the tanks and fairings from fasa and stock
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<leudaimon> I'll try it
<Bornholio> ok so in SPH i have X-1 Rocket Propellant Tank B, Highly Pressurized?: Flase
<Bornholio> False
<Bornholio> Flase would be better
<NathanKell> Ok, thassa bug
<NathanKell> Do you have another version of it that is?
<Bornholio> no, not sure what mod its from
<NathanKell> Taerobee
<Bornholio> ah yes, tank Default*
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<NathanKell> is it switchable?
<NathanKell> If not, definite bug
<Bornholio> not switchable unless tech changes it
<Bornholio> oh no i'm dump switchable
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<Bornholio> dumb
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<leudaimon> NathanKell, do I still need to set 500% multipliers for stuff?
<NathanKell> You need to set 5x (whatever the preset says) for fund gain.
<NathanKell> You do not need to change fund loss.
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<NathanKell> Hmm. I really need to push a cfg to do that.
<Bornholio> what about starting cash... otherwise no tooling for you
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<leudaimon> so for hard it would be 300, right? anything else to be increased?
<NathanKell> nope
<NathanKell> Hold on a sec and I'll push a cfg to do it for you
<NathanKell> Bornholio: Note once I push it, edit your SFS to return FundGain to normal
<NathanKell> well, finish your contract first
<leudaimon> already done ;)
<NathanKell> heh
<Bornholio> ok, just have supersonics and sounding rockets not like i make any money
<NathanKell> oh crap
<leudaimon> btw, BP/s values have changed a lot right?
<NathanKell> can't do it by cfg
<NathanKell> have to edit all the contracts basically
<Bornholio> thought you had a default setter in master
<Bornholio> ah i get what you mean
<NathanKell> They're not just numbers, they're CC expressions
<NathanKell> I was going to regexp them
<NathanKell> but...often reward is based on advance
<NathanKell> so that would be multiplier*multiplier
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<NathanKell> But sometimes it's not based on advance, IIRC, so...we can't do it only to advance
<NathanKell> Maybe it's always based on advance? Then we could
<NathanKell> but ain't got time to check
<leudaimon> NathanKell, did you implement that thing you said another day about having a minimum diameter to require tooling?
<NathanKell> I implemented it in code.
<NathanKell> I did not implement it in cfg
<NathanKell> Because 0.25m x 0.25m is insanely cheap to tool
<NathanKell> so just tool it
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<NathanKell> Or don't, you might not notice.
<leudaimon> oh, I see... well, I'll tool the 0.3m x something that allows a full burn of the WAC
<NathanKell> Yes, I *definitely* don't want you to not have to tool for the WAC
<Bornholio> one Tank I-hp comming up 5k
<NathanKell> The point of tooling is to make you reuse designs.
<Bornholio> ^ sucks
<Bornholio> :)
<NathanKell> WAC tooling should cost 1139
<NathanKell> You're on latest dev yeah?
<Bornholio> as of noonish
<NathanKell> update just in case
<NathanKell> I fixed a bug either last night or today where the tank multiplier wasn't being used
<NathanKell> so they cost 2.7x as much as they should
<Bornholio> lol then i'm done for the night
<NathanKell> heh
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<leudaimon> it cost a tiny bit less for the cilyndric tank iirc, but that's in this region
<leudaimon> what about utilization? do you intend to implement something that gives maximum values for a given tank?
<NathanKell> ~1m to tool?
<NathanKell> I did yes.
<NathanKell> I also want to implement something that calculates it based on shape, but...not now.
<leudaimon> but I still can set it to 100
<NathanKell> (you'll see that Balloon can't go under 99%, and the SMs have 0.75 or less caps)
<leudaimon> for the HP1
<NathanKell> yeah
<NathanKell> Because, well, if you make a fillet tank
<leudaimon> oh, I see...
<NathanKell> That one has to be up to the player sadly
<NathanKell> we can't cover the edge cases involved with PP. With SSTU, we can.
<NathanKell> We can compute utilization given a stage height and diameter and whether it's common bulkhead
<leudaimon> yeah, PP is too simple for that stuff, right?
<NathanKell> Well, it's not too simple if we assumed each tank was composed of subtanks
<NathanKell> But we can't, because of how ferram and I make stages (two cone 'domes' and a cylinder)
<leudaimon> yeah, but wouldn't that be possible with fillet cylinders?
<NathanKell> because in *that* case, the domes need to be at 100%, and the cylinder doesn't have top and bottom domes
<NathanKell> and if it's common bulkhead, then the cylinder should be 100%.
<NathanKell> Or nearly so.
<leudaimon> yeah, I don't usually have the patience to make the domes... but in larger stages where this design could work I put utilization up to 90-95
<leudaimon> well, apparently my install is working \o/, have to go now
<NathanKell> o/
<leudaimon> great job as always NathanKell
<leudaimon> o/
<NathanKell> Thanks :)
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<ferram4> So an efficiency of 0.9 only works for kerolox. It looks like hydrolox is more along the lines of 0.95...
<ferram4> oh well, I'll have to do some due diligence on those deliverable performance calcs then.
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<Pap> o/
<NathanKell> o/ Pap!
<Pap> What do you need help with NathanKell ?
<NathanKell> Pap: Did you have a chance to apply the R7 TP stuff you added to the R7 engine configs?
<Pap> All of them are tagged in the spreadsheet and uploaded in the ECM file
<NathanKell> \o/
<Pap> I did not export the engine ECM's because I wanted you to tell me how to do it the first time so I can get it right
<NathanKell> That's column B of the ECM sheet I believe
<Pap> Ah, that is right, I will do it now
<NathanKell> err
<NathanKell> 1sec
<NathanKell> yep
<NathanKell> it's the parts one that needs fixing
<Pap> Yup, I will look at what you did and rewrite them
<NathanKell> Fixed it on the sheet
<NathanKell> Just paste column A over what's in the node in the cfg
<Pap> Also, do you want me to set the GameParameters.cfg to the new x3 x4 x5 for FundsGainMultiplier?
<NathanKell> Nope, we need to apply it to the contracts
<NathanKell> Because otherwise failure penalties will be at 1/5 value
<NathanKell> we've been doing 5x for now as a quick hack, if that holds up we should apply it
<Pap> But we can also set FundsLossMultiplier? Or is that the one that jacks up the cost of the buildings?
<NathanKell> Yeah
<NathanKell> that
<NathanKell> Also kerbal hiring
<NathanKell> also anything else
<NathanKell> So we can
<Pap> Got it
<NathanKell> 't
<Pap> OK, well modifying the contracts isn't the end of the world
<NathanKell> Ah!
<NathanKell> ...nope, dang.
<NathanKell> Hmm
<Pap> We'll wait on a little more testing and then I can handle that
<Pap> No reason to leave the contracts at these default values if we are never going back to these costs
<NathanKell> Yeah I think that's best. If we could rely on reward funds and advance funds and failure funds being independent, I could write an MM script to increase them all
<NathanKell> But sometimes rewards funds is, like, 500 + advancefunds
<Pap> Yep, they are not able to be mass multiplied
<NathanKell> yeah :(
<NathanKell> Ok, lemme finish up some avionics ECM pricing
<NathanKell> then I'll boot up and see what else needs touching up
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<NathanKell> I think we do need to go with that extra node. I mean, that or just getting rid of any tank in the start node that isn't procedural :D
<Pap> I am going to test the contract idea I have for that tonight to see if it works
<NathanKell> ok!
<NathanKell> I mean, honestly, what's easiest might be if I run a scenario module that just unlocks a node when a game starts
<Bornholio> can it be more than tanks, i would like to just not purchase a lot of parts like plane engines and cockpits etc
<Pap> Did you see the faux Ranger I made with taniwha's solar panels?
<NathanKell> I did not I think!
<Pap> I will move everything out of the start node
<NathanKell> Bornholio: Yeah...
<NathanKell> Pap: only tanks IMO
<NathanKell> The rest is ok
<NathanKell> We want to have to invent as few entrycosts as possible :D
<Bornholio> I want them to not appear without doing all that pruning.
<Pap> ^^^ this is a popular reason
<Bornholio> ah your saying opposite :/
<NathanKell> Yeah...but if we move them, then we have to think of entry costs for them
<Bornholio> 1
<NathanKell> Well, I guess they could be nominal (1)
<Pap> I am saying we just set their entry costs at 1
<NathanKell> yeah, fair enough
<NathanKell> ok
<Pap> Ah, apparently that was a good idea, lol
<NathanKell> :D
<Bornholio> is there a good way to append the mod name to the description?
<NathanKell> Pap already does
<Pap> It is already done...
<Pap> NathanKell: Any opposition to me setting ActionGroupsAlways = True?
<NathanKell> Sure. I do it in CBK anyway
<NathanKell> (technically I added that because stock players wanted that option without CBK :D )
<Pap> Ohhhh, didn't know it was automatic, I always set it when I start :)
<NathanKell> It is, in fact, one of the first two principle reasons CBK exists.
<Bornholio> VAB is too expensive to have that not be on
<NathanKell> That, and pad mass limits.
<NathanKell> RP-0 during .25 (was it .25?) had to pass around a hacked KSP dll to do that, then Mike finally persuaded Felipe to unhardcode stuff so CBK was born
<NathanKell> Ah sorry
<NathanKell> .90 and 1.0
<NathanKell> .25 didn't have upgradeable buildings
<NathanKell> must...not...get...pissed...again.
<NathanKell> Gah, brings up bad felipememories
<Pap> :(
<NathanKell> All good now. We got to rip the code apart in 1.2 :)
<Bornholio> ok how come i didn't notice that before? must be loosing it
<NathanKell> But still, there was so much left to rip
<Pap> Was he gone by 1.2, or not till after you guys all left?
<awang> Does anyone here use the ATK propulsion pack?
<Pap> awang: I have, not in a while though
<NathanKell> It dates to after 1970, so no :P
<Pap> ^^^^lol
<NathanKell> I like my rocket parts like I like my music, what can I say.
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<awang> Pap: :(
<Bornholio> designed by one of three men
<awang> Let's see if 1.2 broke any models
<github> RP-0/Developmental 52c6d25 NathanKell: ECMs for avionics up to 1961
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oEC
<Pap> I agree on the music. I actually agree on the rocket parts as well. But I am a fan of Atlas V
<awang> NathanKell: I *just* got the joke
<awang> Didn't know older things were all the rage around here
<NathanKell> :D
<Pap> awang: NathanKell does all of the RO/RP-0 planning until 1971. Then others have to step in ;)
<awang> lol
<awang> NathanKell: Newer tech too fancy for you? :P
<awang> Does Atomic Age still work?
<Pap> awang: It might not be needed anymore. Bornholio added 8? or so NTR engines to stock RO
<Starwaster> NathanKell ok so, LOX ice, is that something you want to happen where it checks if the skin is cold enough in atmo before launch or are we talking a TANK configuration for temporary insulation that goes away after launch?
<Bornholio> every nuclear rocket built except the RD-0401 was pre 1971, and it was first designed before then.
<awang> Pap: That's good news
<Bornholio> 9, and atomic age works but needs configs
<awang> I've been away for too long
<Bornholio> kerbal atomics is better, also needs configs
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oEa
<github> RP-0/Developmental db2110c NathanKell: Tweak that
<NathanKell> Ok Pap added some avionics ECMs to the sheet too
<NathanKell> can you do an export? Then I'll fire up and see what else is missing
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<Pap> Yep, oh, I didn't add those tags yet (or the new tanks) let me do that now
<awang> Are any of the BobCat mods still alive?
<awang> The RO forum post refers to it for community ISS
<awang> But it seems rather dead
<blowfish> IIRC NK got up to Energia parts in some older USSR playthrough
<blowfish> but getting that far is not common given the time commitment
<Bornholio> why is there a base cost and base time to rollout? a 13 fund 83kg rocket takes 1d21hrs and 583 funds to launch
<Bornholio> and 5hrs to roll out
<NathanKell> blowfish: Yep.
<NathanKell> The gemstone/mineral series
<NathanKell> Bornholio: Lemme fix that
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oE5
<github> RP-0/Developmental 1fa17f6 NathanKell: Lower base BP by a factor of 10. Make Bornholio happier.
<Bornholio> lol
<NathanKell> Bornholio: That said, part of that number is pad cost.
<NathanKell> Pads do have base cost and time.
<NathanKell> If you launched a WAC from LC39, you'd better believe it'd cost a few million
<Bornholio> yes and when i launched a 60lbs candy rocket it was from a dirt field, same as most V-2 launches
<NathanKell> Heh
<NathanKell> Well, it should be better now
<Bornholio> oh and i'd go to jail if i did that today
<NathanKell> :D
<NathanKell> (for now, in space center, open up KCT->Settings, turn on show formulas, find BP formula, change the starting 5000 to 500)
<NathanKell> Then click save
<Pap> NathanKell: RFTank-IV is listed as 2 entry Cost, is that an error?
<NathanKell> That'll take effect immediately
<NathanKell> Pap: ?
<Pap> When you pushed it to the Tech Tree, it has an entryCost of 2
<NathanKell> ah
<NathanKell> fixed
<NathanKell> They need ECMs but Not Now (tm)
<Pap> Thanks
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7ou0
<github> RP-0/Developmental 9e4aea5 NathanKell: LH2 mass penalty in balloon tanks (Atlas thickness failed for Centaur A)
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<Pap> NathanKell: Ready for me to extract from the sheet?
<NathanKell> yep!
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<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7ozq
<github> RP-0/Developmental d262dad Pap: Updates from Sheet, Always Allow Action Groups is Default
<Pap> NathanKell: Can you link the RF DLL?
<Pap> Thanks
<Pap> Alright, you should be good to test
<NathanKell> \o/
<Pap> NathanKell: There are the Ranger quick mock ups I made
<NathanKell> Wow, awesome!
<NathanKell> Oh! Right! You said our parts aren't the right size?
<Pap> Yeah, our Mariner and Ranger are small
<Pap> Probably about 90% too small
<Pap> Or would that be 10% too small?
<NathanKell> Ah then we should grow them
<Pap> I will look into ti
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<Pap> *it
<NathanKell|NOMZ> \o/
<NathanKell|NOMZ> o/ for a bit
<NathanKell|NOMZ> hope it works :D
<NathanKell|NOMZ> OH
<NathanKell|NOMZ> NOTE
<NathanKell|NOMZ> NOTE
<NathanKell|NOMZ> Starting a new game, go to AC, exit AC, quit to main menu, load save
<Pap> AC?
<NathanKell|NOMZ> Otherwise the retirements will be for Val and Jeb, not their new names
<Pap> Ah, the Astronout Complex
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<Bornholio> alright giving up on sonic contracts also. too much time too little money, same for sounding rockets, just waiting out the tech for orbital rocketry
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<Pap> NathanKell|NOMZ, Bornholio: The test of the Unlock Node Contract worked flawlessly
<Bornholio> cool
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<Pap> Born, the new pricing seems to be fair and balanced, right?
<Bornholio> maybe?
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<Bornholio> full 40t orbital rocket 6609 funds, 7830 rollout, 25d build 2d20hrs rollout ( same rate as the 83kg rocket (1.2bp/s) )
<Bornholio> completely dwarfed by one tank tooling purchase (2mx6m) total tooling costs must have been over 100k and engine initial purchases a bit more than that
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<Pap> NathanKell|NOMZ: Everything seemed to be working for me. Tooling costs on the first few Sounding rockets worked to be 4x of the cost.
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<NathanKell> Bornholio: 6609 funds? Wow. What did you use?
<NathanKell> and 100k tooling does sound rather much for 2m tooling
<NathanKell> what tank type?
<Bornholio> baloon, lr89, lr 105
<NathanKell> On 40t !?
<Bornholio> i'll load todays changes in the morning and run it again see if its much differnt
<Bornholio> not many options and you can only buy one set
<NathanKell> Atlas development costs were on the order of 1500000 funds
<NathanKell> Without FASA you don't get the NAA75-110 that's true
<NathanKell> So now I don't feel as bad if you were only paying ~300k instead of 1500k
<NathanKell> (I assumed a full third of the listed development costs were for later models btw, total A-F development was ~2400k)
<Bornholio> yes but they launched many rockets on that, it all just feels restrictive and margiinalizing
<NathanKell> ...you're, also, meant to launch many rockets from that too
<Bornholio> like i have no choice and if i make a coice an di need to make a niggling little change i get penalized more than the build cost of the orcket
<NathanKell> So the slop distances should be larger?
<Bornholio> i will not launch many of this rocket i would quick ksp before that
<Bornholio> quit
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<NathanKell> Hmm. Sounds like it does need some balancing.
<Bornholio> kaunching the same rocket over and over isn't a game
<Bornholio> launching
<Bornholio> its work :P
<NathanKell> Different payloads tho :P
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<Bornholio> might want to spreadsheet it out with the costs all includes or its going to be hard to grasp. One thing i noticed is that most part purchases and addons are negligible to the real cost of launching a rocket at the moment. as is rush building.
<NathanKell> Yeah, rushbuilding definitely needs to costlier
<NathanKell> and the launch cost should be spread over integration too
<NathanKell> Part purchases...weren't the engines expensive?
<Bornholio> apart from those. Other note is that learning curve is really steep, i'd be landing on the moon with probes at this same time period
<NathanKell> The ramp-up of build rate and research rate is *way* slower now, yeah
<Bornholio> I imagin e a lot of people will just wait out research times
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<NathanKell> Also rocket performance is waaay lower early on, now that tanks are properly heavy
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<Bornholio> yeah i would have normally sent my third or fourth launch to orbit, 6th at worst
<Bornholio> i did almost 30 today and made almost nothing on most of them
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<Bornholio> but, tomorrow is another day. have a good night :)
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<NathanKell> Night! :)
<NathanKell> Think I'll stream, might as well
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oPV
<github> RP-0/Developmental d5a737f NathanKell: Fix A-4 level tank mass
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oP6
<github> RP-0/Developmental da2802d NathanKell: Make fairings a bit cheaper to tool, and stringers half the price.
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oPN
<github> RP-0/Developmental 3737edd NathanKell: ECMs for the B9 wings
<NathanKell|Twitch> !tell Born* so far the tooling's about right, with some minor adjustments. Things seem to be going ok. Adjusted stringers and fairings down just now, but the rest seems fairly good. Maybe you were on an old build and that was it.
<Qboid> NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell|Twitch> !tell Pap* So far so good. Tomorrow I need to not forget to rename the resources for comsat and weathersat and move them to RO. Also need to start the player off with no crew, if I can.
<Qboid> NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell|Twitch> And there was something else I'm forgetting.
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<NathanKell|AWAY> !tell Maxsimal sounding rocket contract balance needs to be redone now that early rocket performance is so much weaker, IMO.
<Qboid> NathanKell|AWAY: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<NathanKell|AWAY> !tell NathanK* cockpits in space
<Qboid> NathanKell|AWAY: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid> NathanKell|AWAY: NathanKell|AWAY left a message for you in #RO [07.08.2017 08:42:18]: "cockpits in space"
<NathanKell|AWAY> !tell NathanKell cockpits in space
<Qboid> NathanKell|AWAY: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Maxsimal> o/
<Qboid> Maxsimal: NathanKell|AWAY left a message for you in #RO [07.08.2017 07:58:30]: "sounding rocket contract balance needs to be redone now that early rocket performance is so much weaker, IMO."
<Maxsimal> !tell NathanKell Ok, I'll look into the sounding rocket balance - how did early rocket performance yet worse though? I need to look at latest now with all your RF changes and such, but although I know costs have changed a lot, what happened to early rockets? Did we take the A4 or the Aerobee away from the start node? Or is it your tank mass changes?
<Qboid> Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Maxsimal> !tell NathanKell My tuning was predicated mostly on Aerobee/XASR + A4 - those are the cheapest engines to use for sounding rockets - now SRM's may come into play more, but because your integration tuning doesn't nearly as much of a cost for low-tonnage launches, I think that combo will still be the ideal.
<Qboid> Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap|sleep> Maxsimal: o/ The changes are because the mass ratios changed on the tanks. Early tanks are much heavier which was always an issue with just having one tank type for Proc Tanks
<Qboid> Pap|sleep: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [07.08.2017 07:56:17]: "So far so good. Tomorrow I need to not forget to rename the resources for comsat and weathersat and move them to RO. Also need to start the player off with no crew, if I can."
<Maxsimal> Hrmm, why would RO need those resources? They're just for RP0 contracts.
<Maxsimal> Hrmm - and ok. The only thing that should need to be done is to increase the payout for those contracts, and maybe scale back the max altitude and difficulty assigned. I didn't expect players to get to 6000km w/1 ton of payload with early technology anyway.
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<Pap> Maxsimal: when I created them, I created them inside of RO, NK wants to change the names of them to make them be more descriptive. Might be worth it for me to move it out of RO and into RP-0
<Maxsimal> Pap: Yeah I'd agree with that, I put the sounding rocket resource into RP0, that should also probably be better named.
<Maxsimal> Pap: I do think we should investigate how hard it would be to have a specific 'payload tank' type that is only for these contract resources, so that we don't end up spamming the fuel tanks with a dozen of them.
<Pap> Maxsimal: addidng them would be rather trivial now that there are additional tanks
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<Maxsimal> Pap: It'd be nice. I'm thinking of adding two more types for aircraft contracts - a 'flightscience' resource, to simulate scientific payload that they put on things like the X-players, (straing guages, skin temp monitors, etc) and a 'military flight payload' resource to simulate bomb-carrying capacity.
<Maxsimal> !s players/planes
<Maxsimal> Ugh I dunno how to use that sub command :P
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<Pap> !tell NathanKell* I am watching your stream (cannot believe you found the energy to stream after your 3-day coding bazaar!). The first avionics node is rather useless (as you mentioned). Should it be removed and bump the next one up to say 4 science available right from the Start node?
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Pap> Maxsimal: I would be careful about adding new tank types. I know taht NK wants to limit them and it becomes more tooling, etc.
<Maxsimal> Pap: More tooling?
<Pap> !tell taniwha What the hell am I doing wrong? Why can I not figure out how to have your .mu importer installed in Blender? I have the one that is on the KSP forum, but it doesn't want to import your model
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<borntosleep> pap is the new node in yet?
<Qboid> borntosleep: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [07.08.2017 07:54:36]: "so far the tooling's about right, with some minor adjustments. Things seem to be going ok. Adjusted stringers and fairings down just now, but the rest seems fairly good. Maybe you were on an old build and that was it."
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<Pap> Bornholio: It is not. Did we decide that we are moving everything from Start there?
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<Bornholio> maybe?
<Maxsimal> Pap: I feel like having one more part in the payload tab is less complicated than adding more scroll to theRF UI, but I don't know what the tooling complications might be
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<Pap> With the tooling, it will require additional tooling for that part. Maybe that would be better since a tank with "Payload" in it would be completely different than one designed for fuel
<Bornholio> pap I think that the starting node parts should all go in the seperate node, but it should be easy to modify that list if it causes problems. Without loading up lots of mods i'm not sure what the true list is. Is it a big task?
<Pap> It is all done through the spreadsheet, so the task itself would not be difficult
<Pap> Does anyone have KSP open?
<Pap> In a career game of RP-0?
<Bornholio> i have it loaded
<leudaimon|work> Pap, which tanks currently support the payload resources?
<Pap> Born, can you please zoom in as far as it will let you in the Tech Tree and take a screenshot of the start node and area to the right of it?
<Bornholio> tank I-hp and SM
<Pap> leudaimon|Work: The Tank-HP-I and all SM Tanks
<leudaimon|work> nice... I don't recall when batteries are available, but I think a battery tank would make more sense than HP-I wouldn't it?
<Pap> Batteries are now available in all SM Tanks
<Pap> The first one of those is located in the Post-War Materials Science 1 point node
<leudaimon|work> oh, ok
<leudaimon|work> no more separate proc. battery then?
<Maxsimal> Pap: Gotcha. Well, yeah, I don't think the tooling for an SM tank should apply to a payload tank. The lining might be somewhat similar, but the guts of the tank would be very different.
<Bornholio> thats in first elec node
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<Maxsimal> Pap: Though to be very realistic, the guts of a tank should be different based on the fuels & fuel ratio, but I doubt we're simulating that with tooling
<Pap> Here is a question for you all. There is a useless 1 point Avionics node that unlocks the Proc Battery and 2 small batteries. Should I remove that and increase the cost of the next Avionics node that unlocks the first proc avionics upgrade and Sputnik?
<Pap> Proc Batteries are a useless part IMO
<Pap> I never use them and instead use Procedural Tanks for everything
<Bornholio> not with tooling costs. I make a little tube cell and stick them on
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<Pap> Thanks Bornholio That is awfully tight. I am going to see if I can move the Start node left I think
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<Pap> OR, I could just have the node directly above the start node. It isn't going to be connected to anything, just a standalone node that cannot be researched and doesn't unlock anything else
<Pap> Above or Below the Start node, what would look better?
<Maxsimal> Pap: There's nothing else that could reasonably be put there? Like one of the two science experiments that get unlocked in the first science node? Kind of a shame to lose it completely, for symmetry's sake
<Bornholio> its pretty balanced on open, space volume wise i'd say above
<Maxsimal> Pap: I forget which two are in that first science node - not at game right now. Is it geiger counter and meteroite detector? Geiger counter could be move there.
<Pap> actaully Maxsimal that is a good point. I will leave it there as there will be new science parts added soon TM
<Pap> I believe it is Orbital Pertubation and Bio Sample?
<Pap> Maybe Film Return
<Pap> not bio sample
<Maxsimal> Pap: *Moved. Ugh sorry, I'm typoing like crazy today, tired. But no I'm pretty sure Orb Perturbation and bio are later.
<Pap> Wait, you are probably more correct
<lamont> temperature and x-ray?
<lamont> or no x-ray is the probe
<lamont> temperature and micrometerorite?
<lamont> *spellin
<Pap> No temp and micro are unlocked from start
<Pap> OK, officially it is Temp and Barometer unlocked from start. Early Science unlocks Micrometeorite and Geiger
<Pap> Jeez, that was painful
<Pap> Bornholio: you have been using Procedural Batteries now?
<Bornholio> yes, but now with tooling cost i am likely to only use litte tiny ones and when pack ones are availabe not even that
<Bornholio> before i'd use them to cap probe cores and other things, commonly as a small conic shape
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<Maxsimal> Pap: Yeah that's what I remember - temp and baro on start, which I imagine should remain so, but geiger could be moved one earlier, especially if you're going to be adding more space-science oriented experiments. Micro should probably stay where it is though.
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<leudaimon|work> have the bio sample been moved from the start node?
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<Bornholio> right now they are first node
<leudaimon|work> ah ok... I misunderstood the previous messages then
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<Bornholio> first biosample for us space science was fungus spores in 1946 https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/life_into_space_vol1.pdf
<leudaimon|work> cool, yeah I didn't think the start node was too early for those tbh
<Bornholio> my only comment is that bio-samples are all taken in one quick breath on the first launch when in reality its stretched across many years
<leudaimon|work> it would be nice to have a contract giving science for biosamples in orbit and biosample orbit return
<leudaimon|work> there are soviet missions that did that to take inspiration from
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<Maxsimal> Lleudaimon|Bornholio: Yeah it's kind of a shame that KSP's science parts are very one-shot. There should be different scientific value to doing a fly-by vs having a sustained experiment in orbit.
<Maxsimal> I thought there was a mod out there that did that? I mean, besides Scansat.
<Pap> Maxsimal, leudaimon|Work, Bornholio: Science Experiments in KSP are not one shot, one kill. RP-0 has made them that way. I think to decrease the grind of launching. For example. In stock KSP, when you have a Materials Bay, I believe that it takes 3 separate "Bays" or missions to gather all of the science available in one situation.
<Bornholio> or creative use of a scienctist and sample boxes and doing the dance and my wholehearted thanks that i don't have to do it in rp-0
<Maxsimal> Pap: I meant one-shot in the sense that you trigger them and they take effect right then, so your situation over time doesn't matter - you can get the same bio-science from a sounding rocket that goes to 160km vs having the bio science capsule in orbit.
<Maxsimal> Pap: And similarly you can sweep past Venus and get a lot of the same Data (yes, missing some biomes, but still) as you would from an orbital survey
<Pap> Ah, yes, that was actually the basis of the RealScience mod that Agathorn was working on, but it was never fully finished: https://github.com/jwvanderbeck/RealScience
<regex> Is being in an orbit a different situation than being in the SOI?
<Pap> regex: In terms of RL, or in terms of KSP?
<regex> KSP man
<leudaimon|work> nope regex
<regex> IRL I know the difference
<Pap> LOL
<regex> well that kills it
<Bornholio> yes, for contracts
<Bornholio> :P
<Pap> Other than being in "High" space or "Low" space
<Pap> They are different for contracts as Bornholio said
<regex> Oh! Well, then you could potentially hook into the contract system to provide for different situations.
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<Pap> I had thought about that as well. Removing the ability for any science to be gained except by contracts, but that becomes very limiting for the player
<SRBuchanan> It also removes a bunch of self-set milestones, like the drive to punch through to 'high above Earth' space.
<Maxsimal> Limiting how? seems like it would be a huge PITA to write all the contracts
<Bornholio> there are already lots of these contracts inside dmagic
<Pap> Bornholio: yes there is
<regex> I couldn't be that hard to add some science modules that do that...
<regex> ^it
<SRBuchanan> Generally speaking when I first get a rocket up to 'High' space above Earth I do it purely for the science. There are not really any contracts for that; they go straight from near-Earth space to cislunar space.
<Maxsimal> There are geostationary or molniya orbit contracts...
<Pap> Maxsimal: it is limiting because if you want to launch a sounding rocket that has a thermometer on it, but there is not a contract available for it, then you get no science
<Bornholio> I always do my first high earth as part of a lunar flyby/orbiter
<SRBuchanan> None of those count as 'high' space for the science instruments.
<Pap> Bornholio: yep, exactly
<Pap> SRBuchanan: GEO is "high"
<Maxsimal> Pap: That just means you need more contracts. :)
<Pap> Yes Maxsimal but the Mission Control Screen is already daunting enough for players with the amount of contracts
<SRBuchanan> Sure, but you get those contracts well after the Lunar ones.
<SRBuchanan> The early communications satellite contracts only have you going up to about 5 Mm.
<regex> I'm so glad I never have to enter that building.
<Pap> yes SRBuchanan That is true
<Maxsimal> Pap: I guess - personally I always find I don't have ENOUGH contract variety, not too little. But you could just make a lot of the current contracts reward some science - I mean, that's the reason anyone launched a sounding rocket.
<Bornholio> but then game balance
<SRBuchanan> There may also be some screwiness thanks to Principia on my end. It seems to play nicely with contracts now, but I am not totally certain how it determines which space 'biome' I am in.
<Maxsimal> SRBuchanan|Pap: I think actually SRBuchanan has a point - the lunar impact/orbit/flyby contracts open up too early vs the other orbit contracts.
<SRBuchanan> It obviously is not simple determination of the primary gravitational attraction, because then you would get flagged as being in Solar orbit before you were as far out as the Moon.
<Pap> Here is the overall issue with science in RP-0...NathanKell has (correctly) wanted to limit the amount of science available to gain to make the game balanced. So it has been the position of the team to not add Science payouts to contracts. Now, that made a lot of sense on the old tree, but now, there is a a lot of "down-time" waiting for the next level of techs to open. It is worth it to re-explore the way it is currently done
<Maxsimal> Pap: I actually build the first mission control upgrade early entirely so I can take the advance from the lunar contracts ASAP.
<Pap> But IRL, the first human objects to pass 35,000 km were the crafts headed to the Moon
<Pap> There was no such thing as a sounding rocket that could reach that high
<Maxsimal> Pap: Oh? Didn't know that - ok that makes sense.
<SRBuchanan> Sure, but coming at it as a player, it is much easier to send an object arbitrarily high than it is to send it specifically to a target body.
<regex> I think some of that could be solved by placing more emphasis on Test Flight.
<SRBuchanan> Since *we* do not have a team of mathematicians on hand, generally speaking.
<Pap> SRBuchanan: I completely agree with you on that
<regex> Because it is valuable to test hardware, but hiring teams takes care of a lot of test data
<Pap> And I am one of the worse players that hangs out in this IRC
<regex> May be realistic but it removes a reason to launch
<Maxsimal> Pap: And I understand NathanKell's issue with the tuning. I'm not saying I would have both contract-based science and the old science system - I'm saying I'd replace the current science system with science contracts.
<Pap> Maxsimal: On that, we agree 100%
<Maxsimal> Pap: Oh cool, good then :)
<SRBuchanan> My first voyage past near-Earth space in my current playthrough was a souped-up orbital platform designed to just throw an X-Ray detector as high as possible. It actually ended up performing in excess of my expectations and sending the probe in past Venus.
<regex> I'd have to play that but it might make the game unplayable for me.
<Pap> regex: Changing science to be only contract based?
<regex> Yes
<SRBuchanan> Yeah I am not sure how I feel about that.
<Pap> Oh, you don't play career, you prefer science mode, correct?
<regex> I would prefer career, just without contracts.
<Maxsimal> regex: I imagine it this way - you're already doing contracts, for funds, now you'd be doing them for funds and science - with some contracts that are more heavy on one or the other so you decide which you want more, and milestones generally awarding a bunch of both.
<Pap> That's right, I remember now regex
<regex> Rewriting Monthly Budgets has helped, but you still need to take the odd contract to beef up rep
<SRBuchanan> Scientific readings, even in absence of a specific reason to need them, still wind up being useful in real life. There should be a reflection of that maintained in RP-0.
<SRBuchanan> The Van Allen belts were discovered that way.
<regex> Maxsimal, that's basically the stock KSP economic model, and I find that excessively tedious.
<Pap> SRBuchanan: I agree with you, but contracts ("missions") for money were never a real thing until the Shuttle Era
<SRBuchanan> That is also true.
<Pap> Every craft that was launched was to gain information (science) on what was up there, better ways to build ICBM's, how to survive in space, etc
<regex> "Hey, if you want to do things for yourself, save up a bunch of resources and spend them on this special strategy" or "you can direct your own space program through milestones"
<regex> That's not really good gameplay IMO. Neither are contracts.
<Maxsimal> SRBuchanan: True, but usually a science team asked Nasa to launch a certain sensor package - whether it was explorative or targetted toward a particular finding. They didn't just launch the Mars rover and strap whatever they felt like on it
<SRBuchanan> Hmm.
<SRBuchanan> The problem is that there are two distinct eras of spaceflight.
<Pap> regex: I know that NK has said he wants to move to the Strategia style of contracts. Would that make more sense to you?
<regex> I don't know. I may be a very odd man out here, I don't care for "direction", I care for being able to launch what I want in the way I want. I don't mind management but I want to be in charge of what I'm doing at the moment.
<SRBuchanan> The Cold War Space Race, where all missions were flown for some military or political reason and funded entirely by the government, and the post-Apollo era, where commercial and government contracts started to become a factor.
<Pap> I believe that moving to Strategia for major milestones and overall space program focus makes the most sense. Then, regular contracts can be used for additional money and science gain
<Maxsimal> regex: I can understand your mindset - I mean, if I was playing Simcity I don't need quests heaped on top of that management sim. The problem to me is that, absent to sort of deep emergent interconnected structure of gameplay that you have within a management sim, contracts fulfill a gameplay role that would be missing otherwise.
<SRBuchanan> For that matter, do missile development contracts make sense in RP-0? Should the focus be entirely on peaceful spaceflight or does acknowledgement of the weaponized origins of modern rocketry help fill out the experience?
<Pap> regex: I understand that point of view. For me, the direction helps, but I get why others would prefer it to be different. In that case, something like monthly budgets, or State Funding makes sense to me
<regex> My rewrite of Monthly Budgets has definitely helped.
<regex> I don't know about the balance of it, but it works for me.
<SRBuchanan> Bear in mind that a lot of early sounding rockets and even orbital launch platforms were derived from missiles.
<Pap> regex: and truthfully, that is all that matters
<SRBuchanan> Heck, the R7 is the basis for the majority of the Russian spaceflight inventory even today.
<Maxsimal> SRBuchanan: A lot of the X-plane research was definitely oriented toward military needs also.
<Pap> That is why I decided to re-write the tech tree. I could not wrap my head around what it was doing, so I wanted to make it something I could understand
<regex> Maxsimal, yes, which is why I am probably the "odd man out". I don't care for contracts in the least. I find them odious in a game where I have to sheperd every single god damned flight.
<regex> Pap, your tech tree is awesome, really enjoying it.
<Pap> Thanks regex !
<Maxsimal> regex: I agree that the contracts can be grindy - I rewrote the sounding rockets to at least make them have an increasing difficulty curve so you had incentive to build new sounding rocket types.
<SRBuchanan> That pressure to build a higher-altitude rocket is real now. My current orbital launch platform can trace its lineage back through several iterations of sounding rockets.
<regex> For me, nothing will really solve the "contracts are grindy" problem except letting me pretty much build them for the mission I want to do at the moment.
<Pap> SRBuchanan: That is really cool to hear
<regex> So I ditched them and went with a budget model.
<SRBuchanan> Though at this point it has exactly zero parts in common with them. It was a process of replacing everything piecewise.
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<Maxsimal> regex: And I can understand that - on the other hand, I feel like having a reputation system (or other parameters you work with) that is WAY more interesting than what KSP has now would be needed to make a montly-budget game more interesting than contracts are to me now.
<Bornholio> wow very differnt results from MJ in vab and out of vab
<SRBuchanan> Annual budgeting would make more sense.
<regex> I use quarterly
<Pap> Here is the real problem with the grinding...RSS planetary data is from January 1, 1951, NOTHING but rocket testing happened for a 7 year period of the game. It gets grindy at the beginning
<regex> ^^^
<Pap> Alright, so we have a lot of good ideas in here. Let's design the next iteration of RP-0. All of the stuff that is being implemented with this new release will work with what we design, so let's do it and plan out the next version RP-0 2.0
<SRBuchanan> I have yet to fail to achieve orbit in my second year of a playthrough, though.
<Maxsimal> Pap: Why do you think I keep showing up at this chat, just for your company?
<Pap> Maxsimal: Yes, that is what I thought. Is that not the reason? :(
<Pap> SRBuchanan: I think that will change with the new Tooling and Rollout Costs
<Pap> It won't be worth it financially to go for it (I don't think)
<SRBuchanan> Yeah. Even if the Americans had backed all the right horses they would have only been able to beat the Soviets to orbit by a year or so.
<Maxsimal> Pap: I'm kidding. I do like chatting. But I also feel like I can contribute here, and I like how much energy RP0 has right now, compared to where it was 6 months ago, it feels like we're really building toward 2.0
<Bornholio> i'm in the opposite boat, tooling costs are making it more frustrating and though i like contracts i'd rather not be told that i can be creative by the contracts and the price in the system
<SRBuchanan> I have also noticed that KCT seems not to be properly diminishing costs for building more of the same platform.
<Maxsimal> Bornholio: Did you set your money to 500%?
<Bornholio> yes, or 300% cause hard
<Pap> SRBuchanan: That hasn't been happening since 1.1.3 :(
<Maxsimal> SRBuchanan: It never did that.
<SRBuchanan> Huh.
<Maxsimal> It used to recycle parts from recovery though.
<SRBuchanan> It does not any more.
<Pap> No, we need to integrate ScrapYard for that to start happening again
<Maxsimal> Yeah, you can install scrapyard yourself though - the Rp0 KCT presets still notice recovered parts, it's just that no recovered parts exist without Scrapyard.
<Pap> What we need is more coders involved with RP-0. I do not have the level of knowledge there to contribute. Right now, it is pretty much just NK writing the code we need
<SRBuchanan> What I really want is a discount for rebuilding the same platform, scaled to how many times you have done it before and how significant your changes are.
<Pap> SRBuchanan: That is what the new tooling is designed to do. In a "light" version
<Maxsimal> SRBuchanan: There is talk of a manufacturing system, but it's up in the air right now, afaik.
<SRBuchanan> What languages are most used in coding RSS/RO/RP-0?
<Maxsimal> C#
<SRBuchanan> I really have not delved into it farther than configuration files.
<Maxsimal> It's unity, so it's all C#, afaik
<regex> If you know Java it's super easy to pick up.
<regex> And it does a lot of things better.
<SRBuchanan> I know just enough Java to get myself into trouble.
<SRBuchanan> Which admittedly is my knowledge level on a lot of topics.
<regex> Then you shouldn't ahve a problem with KSP, really, you would just need some guidance.
<regex> And, of course, some decompiled libraries
<regex> because fuck if you can't mod this game without decompiling it
<SRBuchanan> I will look into learning how to work with C# then. I know Microsoft has resources for learning about it. Are there are better ones I should be looking into?
<regex> The MS stuff is pretty good IMO.
<regex> although for KSP I would definitely look into current plugin code for an idea of how to get started. Pick something easy to mod first.
<regex> If you want to get into it, of course.
<regex> No pressure, lol
<SRBuchanan> Nah, I have wanted to get involved in the modding side for a while now.
<SRBuchanan> My dream mod would be a custom engine designer with an SSTU-type interface.
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<regex> Wouldn't that be rad.
<regex> I've wanted historical variances in Test Flight, so that it randomizes burn times on starting a new game. Make you really feel like you're making history
<SRBuchanan> I have always felt that the restriction to real-world or proposed engines was a bit restrictive. A method of defining an engine based on its operating cycle, scale, and nozzle profile would be neat.
<SRBuchanan> The individual parts would be determined by the operating cycle, or perhaps fuel type.
<Maxsimal> Talk to ferram4, he's working on that right now.
<SRBuchanan> On my idea, or Regex's?
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<Maxsimal> SRBuchanan: Yours. Btw I'm not sure if he's the one primarily doing it, just know from chat log that he's working on it.
<Bornholio> ferram is writing a Proc engine mod
<SRBuchanan> I have to say that I *really* like SSTU's interface. The only real problem I have with it is that the engine clusters are treated as a single part by TestFlight.
<SRBuchanan> Well, guess I had better learn C# quickly then.
<regex> I don't use that clustering anyway, my computer can handle the part counts
<regex> Besides, with RO you're generally getting lower part counts anyway, no need to stack tanks.
<SRBuchanan> So can mine, generally, although I have had trouble with early satellites when I coat them in hundreds of small solar panels.
<regex> "wobbly rockets" is a direct result of the "LEGO" parts mindset.
<regex> hah
<Bornholio> get more hype: http://i.imgur.com/MScEjd7.png from ^^^
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<Maxsimal> regex: I always have higher part counts in RO, because of all the extra bits needed like avionics and RCS.
<regex> Lately, maybe.
<SRBuchanan> Oooh.
<regex> but I build in stock like I build in RO, just having to use far more tanks for some reason
<SRBuchanan> Yeah I about break even. What I save on bunkerage I lose on control systems and the like.
<regex> because tilt-a-vomit reaction wheels are fucking stupid
<SRBuchanan> Eyup.
<SRBuchanan> I only ever use reaction wheels on long-term applications, as in real life.
<SRBuchanan> All of my stations have had them, and all of my non-early communications relays.
<regex> They're pretty useful in RO too, but not like in stock. You still need RCS
<Maxsimal> RCS costs me a lot of partcount in RO because I like to economize, I build my own RCS blocks rather than slap 4x 4-horn RCS units on.
<SRBuchanan> Yeah, though my reaction-wheel RCS backups/despinners have a lot less redundancy than my full-RCS-controlled spacecraft.
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<SRBuchanan> I use the blocks somewhat but only when they fit my needs.
<SRBuchanan> Hmm. Procedural RCS!
<Starwaster> lamont ok uh new shuttle PEG.... when it enters PEG mode it promptly pitched up to 60 deg.... really steep ascent? I'm letting it go through to see what it's going to do but.... I can't imagine it's going to end well
<SRBuchanan> We already sort of have that with the GUI (which is a painful interface, by the way. I wish it would at least auto-hide.
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<Starwaster> Ap of over 3000km now instead of my requested 400km orbit...
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<Maxsimal> gotta run, later
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<lamont> Starwaster: uh are you on my lcg/ascent-guidance-dev branch?
<Starwaster> yeah, shuttle PEG? Is it unfinished?
<lamont> quite
<lamont> its all debug spammy as hell as well
<Starwaster> hmmmm actually I pulled your code into my branch as a PR but Git is acting screwy... it won't actually let me merge it BUT the code actually made it into my local repository... so if you make a change it automagically wants to pull those changes too because the PR is unmerged...
<Starwaster> so when I first woke up I see a notification that my hazy mind thought was a new release
<lamont> ah, nope
<Starwaster> but it's just your latest commits that it wants to pull down into my screwed up merge attempt
<lamont> and github is having some API issues this morning, slowness at least
<Starwaster> it's bizarre, it won't let me edit it to resolve the alleged conflict but does actually pull the code down into my system... which compiles... so where the hell is there even a conflict?
<lamont> i’ve got a rocket that it works pretty well with, but another one that it converges but goes insane on
<Starwaster> hmmm are the body parameters hard coded or something? I didn't try it on Earth, I tried it on 10x Kerbol which isn't *quite* earth sized... almost but not quite
<lamont> sometimes manual merging works better than the UI — i’ve been able to merge/rebase stuff on the command line that git figures out automatically, but github can’t merge wtihout conflicts
<lamont> yes
<lamont> they were
<lamont> oh, still are
<lamont> yeah its quite busted
<Starwaster> well that could be why my rocket is going steeper than it should be...
<lamont> on that might be half my problem i was having last night
<lamont> rdval = 6371000 + 185000;
<lamont> vdval = Math.Sqrt( gm / rdval);
<lamont> gamma = 0;
<lamont> you’re going into that orbit
<Starwaster> yeah I see that code.... easy enough to deal with that but what other surprises might await?
<lamont> inclination box is busted
<lamont> i have no idea if the fixes to the Ap/Pe box i just pushed actually work or not
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<lamont> there’s no UI/UX exposure of failure to converge — i haven’t actually seen the iterations blow up yet, usually it converges to something utterly insane — which makes me think the code still has a typo somewhere in it
<dxdy> it was shamefully negligent of them to not do proper testing though, so hard to feel sympathy
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<lamont> starwaster: dev of MJ may also have some weird attitude control issues, and that branch pulls in dev, sarbian may have busted something (c.f. NK’s vid from last night)
<lamont> (and its in my prior actual release of peg code)
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<awang> How well does MechJeb deal with Principia?
<SRBuchanan> For ascent guidance, it works fine.
<SRBuchanan> It loses some accuracy, of course, but nothing a bit of basic baby-sitting cannot handle. It still flies much better than a human could be reasonably expected to.
<awang> Right, since n-body physics doesn't play as large a role in ascent
<awang> What about anything between planetary bodies?
<SRBuchanan> When it comes to orbital transfer you have to use Principia's interface to calculate the transfer. I believe MechJeb can still execute the node though.
<SRBuchanan> Basically, MechJeb still works in Principia, you just have to babysit it more.
<awang> Ah
<awang> That's good news
<SRBuchanan> Yeah. Principia is the hardest of hard modes for sure but the only real penalty with MechJeb is accuracy loss and some irrational readouts. Principia becomes your primary transfer calculator.
<egg> SRBuchanan: so we'll add tracking burns in the next version
<egg> I'm not sure how Mechjeb will handle those
<egg> maybe well, maybe not, dunno :-p
<egg> but worst case you can use smartass + looking at the timer (and map view)
<egg> SRBuchanan: also map view histories will stop being so damned slow :-p
<SRBuchanan> There is a weird issue with Principia where if you plan a transfer, plot the node on your navball, and leave Prinicipia open the delta-V meter for the node does not deplete.
<egg> SRBuchanan: that's known and working as intended
<egg> it should not deplete, because we don't actually have a meaningful way of making it deplete
<SRBuchanan> But again, all you need to do to solve that is watch your trajectory like a hawk and manually dictate your brennschluss.
<egg> genau
<egg> warum reden wir jetzt Deutsch?
<SRBuchanan> Nein.
<SRBuchanan> Brennschluss is a loan word in the American spaceflight lexicon, albeit not in common use any more.
<egg> aah
<SRBuchanan> It crops up in old sci-fi though, which is where I picked it up.
<egg> (and my question was "why are we now speaking german" :-p)
<SRBuchanan> Yeah, I figured it was something like that. I did actually learn a very, very small amount of German during a trip to Europe way back when. Barely enough to ask directions or order lunch though.
<SRBuchanan> All of my non-English languages I actually understand are computational.
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<SRBuchanan> The Stone family shouts 'Brennschluss' at termination of their liftoff/transfer burn from the Moon in the book 'The Rolling Stones,' by Heinlein. That was my first introduction to the word.
<SRBuchanan> He also used the term in 'Double Star.'
<Rokker> wtf is up with that link
<SRBuchanan> <.>
<SRBuchanan> My brain hurts now.
<Rokker> line*
<Bornholio> they lie and exagerate about what the missiles can hit every time there is a launch
<SRBuchanan> Though I have noticed the node does deplete if you close out the maneuver in Principia.
<SRBuchanan> Which makes sense I guess.
<egg> SRBuchanan: I'd actually consider that a principia bug :-p
<Rokker> Bornholio: nuke DC
<SRBuchanan> I think what happens is that Principia forgets the maneuver but the navball retains it and treats it as it would a conventional maneuver.
<egg> yeah
<SRBuchanan> Which I personally find desirable more often than not. It gives me an idea of how long I have to go.
<SRBuchanan> It usually results in a burn well within reasonable accuracy parameters too. You just get Mechjeb to execute the node and refine a bit on RCS.
<SRBuchanan> I have yet to test it for deep interplanetary work, however.
<Rokker> Bornholio: THEY ARE GONNA NUKE DC
<SRBuchanan> Oh no.
<Bornholio> yeah!
<SRBuchanan> What a shame.
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<Rokker> Bornholio: all the estimates ive seen point to at best a sub kiloton nuke if they go for that kinda range
<SRBuchanan> Heh. I still remember when their attempt at a surveillance satellite spun out of control.
<SRBuchanan> I am willing to bet good money they left the orientation gyros hot during ascent and they got saturated.
<Rokker> possibly low kiloton
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<SRBuchanan> Yeah, I really am not sure what North Korea's endgame is on that.
<Rokker> SRBuchanan: political chips to gamble with
<SRBuchanan> Not much of a chip.
<SRBuchanan> Sort of like telling a guy with a machine gun that you'll stab him with a pushpin right before he gives you a terminal case of ventilation.
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<Bornholio> regardless, my relatives in soel fine no humor in any of this
<Bornholio> Seol
<SRBuchanan> Yeah, I can see why.
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<SRBuchanan> I mean, a single US sub can deliver up to 288 half-megaton warheads, but knowing that is only enough to stop someone if they are sane and stable.
<SRBuchanan> It is pretty obvious at this point that Kim Jong Un is not as effective a leader as his predecessors, which has caused him to undertake all of this aggressive posturing to maintain power. I hate to think what he might do in a corner.
<Bornholio> they are 5-150k dial a yield not 500k
<SRBuchanan> The W88's are believe to be capable of up to 475 kilotons.
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<SRBuchanan> Although treaty limitations on MIRVS are set at eight under the SORT.
<SRBuchanan> Bringing the total down to 192, which is still enough to effectively glass a pretty large area.
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<Pap> Bornholio: I have read before that they are dial a yield. How exactly does that work? There is a specific amount of nuclear payload in the core and the implosion that begins the fission needs to be precise. So how does it work like that?
<SRBuchanan> You make the implosion a bit less precise, basically. You deliberately sacrifice efficiency.
<Pap> Ah, interesting
<Bornholio> explaining how it works is not acceptable, but in principle by changing the shape of the compression it changes yield
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<SRBuchanan> Unlike fission devices, fission-fusion or fission-fusion-fission ('thermonuclear') devices do not have an appreciable upper bound on performance either.
<SRBuchanan> Meaning that theoretically you could make arbitrarily large, high-yield device if you wanted to.
<Bornholio> whats nice is when you can't even call bull on the stuff thats quoted online since it violates the security clearance laws
<Bornholio> they can quote anything they want. And I can saw "I can neither confirm nor deny the existance or non-existence of the topic in question. If you need more information please contact the department of defense'
<Bornholio> say
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<Starwaster> lamont is there a reason for using the vessel's CoM (which shifts) instead of its vesselTransform, as a reference point?
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<lamont> that seems to be what vesselState uses to produce the radius
<lamont> oh also we’re talking about gravity and force, so CoM is almost certainly correct for physics purposes
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<Sarbian> lamont: crap, what did I break again ?
<lamont> i’m not sure, i was a bit too tired
<Rokker> NathanKell|AWAY: did you hear the cool news
<Sarbian> ok, let me watch last NK stream then. (yay, found an other way to not code ;) )
<lamont> 1h07m last night https://www.twitch.tv/videos/165059255
<Sarbian> It s a new problem ?
<lamont> 1h27m i think as well
<lamont> maybe yes?
<lamont> i pulled dev from the stuff you pushed last monday, which is what he’s using
<Rokker> NathanKell|AWAY: ok stop being away
<lamont> i went to sleep before end of stream last night, so possible he figured it out later and i just missed it
<Sarbian> ok, that sure looks weird
<Sarbian> and if it s code problem I am surprised no one else complained
<xShadowx> he didnt fix it
<xShadowx> s/x.*/gure it out
<Qboid> xShadowx meant to say: he didnt figure it out
<Sarbian> It seems to work in stock but I make a change that may have more impact on RO heavier launchers
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<Sarbian> ok, I clearly was not awake when I wrote those changes...
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<NathanKell> sleepy Sarbian slays SmartASS?
<Qboid> NathanKell: NathanKell|AWAY left a message for you in #RO [07.08.2017 08:42:50]: "cockpits in space"
<Qboid> NathanKell: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [07.08.2017 11:28:26]: "Ok, I'll look into the sounding rocket balance - how did early rocket performance yet worse though? I need to look at latest now with all your RF changes and such, but although I know costs have changed a lot, what happened to early rockets? Did we take the A4 or the Aerobee away from the start node? Or is it your tank mass chan
<Qboid> ges?"
<Qboid> NathanKell: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [07.08.2017 11:30:23]: "My tuning was predicated mostly on Aerobee/XASR + A4 - those are the cheapest engines to use for sounding rockets - now SRM's may come into play more, but because your integration tuning doesn't nearly as much of a cost for low-tonnage launches, I think that combo will still be the ideal."
<Qboid> NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [07.08.2017 14:11:35]: "I am watching your stream (cannot believe you found the energy to stream after your 3-day coding bazaar!). The first avionics node is rather useless (as you mentioned). Should it be removed and bump the next one up to say 4 science available right from the Start node?"
<egg> NathanKell: you may want to take a look at the principia forum thread too
<NathanKell> Sarbian's slumberous SmartASS spoilage?
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<Sarbian> NathanKell: It works in stock but I messed up with the control tunning and it may break more for heavier vesssels
<NathanKell> Ah gotcha. Weird, cuz that was only ~12t
<egg> NathanKell: Pour qui sont ces serpents qui sifflent sur vos têtes ?
<Sarbian> I ll revert most of that quickly and hopefully someone can test in RO
<NathanKell> Cool :)
<Sarbian> And I ll work on integrating KoS attitude controler
<NathanKell> Pap: I like moving geiger counter back a node.
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<NathanKell> Sarbian: While you are no longer NotCoding(tm) -- hate to bug, but could you look at the CBK issue where the visual mesh isn't updated right if the levels > 3?
<Pap> Yeah, we will move it into that "Avionics" node that doesn't really provide anything now NathanKell
<NathanKell> yeah
<Sarbian> oh yeah, I keep forgetting about that one
<NathanKell> <3
<NathanKell> Maxsimal, Pap: Right now the contracts seem to be topping out at 100km for me. Is that intended?
<NathanKell> Ah, no, it's not:
<NathanKell> [ERR 22:08:31.272] ContractConfigurator.ContractType: CONTRACT_TYPE 'SoundingRocketAltitude': Error parsing soundingMaxAlt
<NathanKell> [EXC 22:08:31.273] ArgumentException: Expected ')', got: ,
<NathanKell> ContractConfigurator.ExpressionParser.ExpressionParser`1[System.Single].ParseToken (System.String expected)
<Pap> ^^^^ That is broken
<Rokker> NathanKell: DID YOU HEAR THE COOL NEWS
<NathanKell> NO I DID NOT
<NathanKell> WHY ARE WE SHOUTING
<Pap> LOUD NOISES!
<Rokker> NathanKell: The head of the NGA announced that over the next year they are gonna release over 300k photos from the KH-8
<NathanKell> \o/
<Pap> NathanKell: I found the issue with the contract
<Rokker> taken between 66 and 76
<Rokker> NathanKell: you know what that means?
<Rokker> launch pads
<NathanKell> Indeed!
<NathanKell> oh right I should tag
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<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 2 new commits to Developmental: https://git.io/v76TX
<github> RP-0/Developmental 37f4d2f Pap: Fix Sounding Rocket Altitude Cotnract...
<github> RP-0/Developmental e25b7c4 Pap: Merge branch 'Developmental' of https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0 into Developmental
<Pap> NathanKell|WFH: That should fix it. I cannot test till later, but this should fix it
<NathanKell|WFH> Pap: Now that we have tooling costs, and various tank levels, I am wondering whether we should just ditch the size upgrades entirely. If you really want a 10m Level I tank, go for it.
<NathanKell|WFH> coolz!
<Pap> Interesting strategy. I never thought that size constraints were necessary to being with, but I play differently from everyone else. But I don't disagree. If you want to spend all the money, go ahead
<NathanKell|WFH> Ok, cool
<Pap> ^^^ None of that made sense. I agree with you
<Sarbian> I reached later in the vid and it may be an other problem all together...
<Bornholio> which version of MJ were you using last niights twitch nathanKell
<NathanKell|WFH> Pap: Another thing. I tried to move RCS configs around but I'm not sure if they get exported or not.
<NathanKell|WFH> N2O should be in 1957 or so and HTP now early.
<Pap> They didn't. That one needs some TLC
<NathanKell|WFH> Ah kk
<Bornholio> have not seen those problems with 16
<Pap> So, they have different syntax to edit than the Engine Configs (the way I was doing it), so I think that it may need to be done manually
<NathanKell|WFH> I'll just have them use engine configs
<NathanKell|WFH> that'll be fairly simple
<Pap> One sec
<Sarbian> Here is a potential fix : https://ksp.sarbian.com/jenkins/job/MechJeb2-RO/731/
<Sarbian> Also for those who missed it I added a "Mechjeb2 Dev RO" in my CKAN repo. It follows 1.3 dev and just removed the 1.3 changes before building
* Sarbian fails at English once more
<NathanKell|WFH> Will try when not talking to Ted and Dan :P
<Bornholio> lol nathan Nerf football....
<Pap> @NathanKell|WFH Here is what needs to get implemented. I don't know the best way to tie this into the spreadsheet as it is currently constructed. It worked before, but we changed things/ https://hastebin.com/nenotogote.pl
<Pap> ^^^NOTE: The techs do not reflect whatever new values you may have used
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<Sarbian> hum, not fixed I guess https://i.imgur.com/bvDeo8Q.png
<regex> I endorse this service/product
<egg> Sarbian: lgtm
<Pap> Not seeing an issue
<Sarbian> Good, shipping it then
<Sarbian> (I feel at work right now)
<egg> :-p
<regex> :D
<NathanKell|WFH> Pap: With the new sheet, that can just be treated as engine configs
<Pap> Excellent news
<egg> Sarbian: we must proactively leverage the vehicle assembly building
<Pap> I will rename them
<NathanKell|WFH> the new sheet does @PART[*] { @MODULE[ModuleEngineConfigs],* { @CONFIG ....
<Pap> They will export with the rest of them
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<NathanKell|WFH> \o/
<NathanKell|WFH> Hmm. Does that set cost?
<NathanKell|WFH> or just entrycost?
<NathanKell|WFH> wait entrycost is in another place nm
<NathanKell|WFH> Ah it does set cost
<Pap> It does set cost
<NathanKell|WFH> ok that's kinda bad, I do need to port RCS over to engineglobalconfigs
<Thomas> Sarbian: :D
<Pap> NathanKell|WFH: I re-made every formula in the sheet. It will now allow you to sort the PARTS tab in any order you want, as well as to add and delete rows and columns without breaking the formulas
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<Pap> As a warning though, it moves a little slower now. But with the way Google Sheets sets formulas, I don't see another option
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<NathanKell|WFH> Pap: \o/
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<xShadowx> whats WFH?:|
<Rokker> Pap Bornholio Probus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krQeUeqTO4k
<xShadowx> hmm away went away and away is usually home (i think) so work from home?:D
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<xShadowx> NathanKell|WFH: smoke got REAL bad over night, <100 meter away is trees, i cant even make out shadows, just pure white blanket
* xShadowx should go google end of world jokes
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Sorry about that. Hopefully Pap fixed it, if not I can take a look.
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<Pap> Maxsimal: Please take a look, I cannot test
<Maxsimal> Pap: Ok - is this on master or Dev? I guess I need to set up a new RP0 for the current new stuff now anyway
<Pap> On Dev
<Maxsimal> Ok
<Maxsimal> And then it's just the new TF and new RF .dll's?
<Pap> Tehre is a new TF?
<Pap> The RF dll for sure, I know nothing about a new TF
<Maxsimal> This dropbox post of NK's yesterday had a TestFlightRF.dll in it
<NathanKell|WFH> THere is no new TF, that's the RF-TF interop
<NathanKell|WFH> the one you ahve should be fine tho
<NathanKell|WFH> Sarbian: Awesome!
<Sarbian> If you get the MJ control bug again with the new version please screenshot the Attitude Adjustment window
<NathanKell|WFH> ok!
<NathanKell|WFH> Does it have #16 worth of PEG in it?
<NathanKell|WFH> or is that only on lamont's side?
<lamont> that is up to date
<lamont> i don’t have any newer code that isn’t currently horribly broken (no space shuttle for public consumption yet)
<NathanKell|WFH> I'll give those both a try in a minute
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<Bornholio> thanks sarbian
<Bornholio> rokker audio completely overwelmed by that buff :P, one of the things i think new engines would help so much
<Rokker> Bornholio: well they are finally working on that arent they?
<Bornholio> did the contract finally get accepted?
<Maxsimal> Pap|NathanKell|WFH: That seems to have fixed it. I got latest on dev/developmental, swapped in those .dll's. Launched a sounding rocket to complete first launch, which flew to 400km. Got appropriate difficult/intermediate/easy sounding contracts. However, the sounding altitude contract is erroring, I'll fix that.
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76Ou
<github> RP-0/Developmental 23e2fa5 Pap: Altitude Fix Didn't Push
<Maxsimal> ... and pap probably just fixed it.
<Pap> LOL, hopefully, take a look
<Pap> It didn't push before for some reason
<Bornholio> how is reward calulated on the SR contracts?
<Maxsimal> No worries, I'll grab and test
<Rokker> Bornholio: they are pushing for it hard
<Bornholio> yeah want a-10 to be on the action also, same engine
<Rokker> no
<Rokker> the a-10 is perfect as it is
<Rokker> leave it alone
<Rokker> Bornholio: i find it weird that they wanna maintain the 8 engines
<Rokker> instead of going down to 4
<Maxsimal> Bornholio: It's roughly (altitude * (payload(kg) + 60) + some constant amount)
<Bornholio> because resilience, we had a plane come back (stupid commander) during GW1 with 3 out and thousands of holes in the wings, including a 1m rpg hit
<Pap> NathanKell|WFH: Are you in agreement that we move all parts (most parts) out of Start node?
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<Rokker> Bornholio: are u sure it wasnt just hit by an F-14 firing a HARM
* Rokker stares at Navy
<Bornholio> yes, got to watch the video same day and get replacemnt systems on order only had to replace one system outright on that, a chaff dispenser in the left wing
<Maxsimal> Pap: Altitude is still erroring
<Pap> Hmmmmmmmmm
<Maxsimal> Pap: I think MAX is supposed to be Max on line 38
<Pap> Yep, taht sounds correct
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<NathanKell> yo
<NathanKell> Pap: Yep. Agree. With an auto-accept contract that completes in a second and unlocks the node
<Maxsimal> Pap: And I have an error there too from something I deleted - line 208 should now be RP0_SoundingDifficulty = @/targetAltitudeKM * 60
<NathanKell> Can *anyone* think of anything that needs to be done for release that isn't in the "Next major release" section of https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/680 ?
<Qboid> [#680] title: Current To-Do List | I have started a to-do list of things that I know need to be completed, I was going to keep this locally, but it doesn't make any sense to do that.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/680
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Kill cockpits for space? Also, do you think we should go through and multiply all the contract payouts/milestones x5 (or something a bit more adjusted?) Since people here have been tripping over the needed 500% multiplayer
<NathanKell> Both are on the list yeah
<NathanKell> Oh, you meant what does kill cockpits for space mean?
<NathanKell> I mean so you can't go up to 100km with a WWII plane cockpit
<NathanKell> and can't reenter with an X-1 cockpit
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Oh, you mean, stuff to add to that list.
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Sorry I misunderstood, i thought you meant stuff from that list that should stiff definitely be done
<NathanKell> Ah :]
<NathanKell> No, I think we need to do all the "next major release" stuff for...the next major release :]
<dxdy> what are the new science parts mentioned on that list?
<Bornholio> pap spreadsheet please, i lost my link :P
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<Rokker> NathanKell: why not?
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<Rokker> NathanKell: why can't you go to 100 km
<Rokker> with a ww2 plane cockpit
<NathanKell> Rokker: Gameplay~~~
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Only thing I can think of is I think we need an end-to-end review of costs. I'm a little concerned that with current tuning, things like the Saturn V will be too expensive, due to that launchpad scaling plus the costing around the apollo pod
<Rokker> NathanKell: but realism?
<NathanKell> Rokker: Because you'd need a pressure suit, and the cockpits don't have room, really.
<Rokker> why,
<Rokker> are you saying the XC-35 and B-29 and 307 Stratoliner and modified DH.9A and other vehicles never existed?
<NathanKell> With 1.3 and partupgrades costing money I guess we could let old cockpits upgrade to having pressure suits. Although like I said, it's not like there's *room* in a Meteor or Spit cockpit for a pressure-suited pilot
<NathanKell> Rokker: They got up to 100km?
<Rokker> no but they had cockpits capable of surviving up that high, i'm sure
<NathanKell> Note though that all of them to my knowledge were pressurized cockpits.
<NathanKell> And I am talking about *unpressurized* cockpits
<NathanKell> Like Meteor or He 111 or...
<Pap> NathanKell: You had mentioned the Satellite Resources being renamed, I forgot what we wanted to rename them to? Also, I think we should move them out of RO and into RP-0
<Pap> The B-29 was the first pressurized bomber cockpit for the US I am pretty sure
<NathanKell> Yep, added that to the list Pap :)
<NathanKell> Pap: Yeah.
<Pap> OK, great
<NathanKell> The X-1 cockpit is pressurized as well (AFAIK) and therefore it will survive going that high.
<Maxsimal> It's not just those WW2 cockpits couldn't keep the pilot alive - they also couldn't survive space themselves - I doubt the instruments were designed for the temperatures and pressures involved.
<Pap> The X-15 was the first winged plane to reach over 100 km
<NathanKell> Sarbian: You ever tried to replace loading screens?
<Pap> NathanKell: YES!!!! I've been looking at replacing them
<Rokker> everything I listed had pressurized cockpits
<Pap> I haven't done it successfully, but I mean that it should be something we do
<regex> That would be nice. The Duna loading screen deeply offends me
<Rokker> pressurized cockpits were starting to become a thing during the interwar period, starting as early as the 1920s
<NathanKell> Rokker: I do not disagree.
<NathanKell> Rokker: But you are not answering my question.
<NathanKell> Rokker: *which* cockpits do we have that are pressurized?
<Rokker> any cockpit can be pressurized if u try hard enough
<NathanKell> Yeah, sure, you try doing that to an He 111 cockpit and take it up to 100km. See how long it takes before it poofs outward.
<NathanKell> You need to make it a pressure vessel.
<NathanKell> That adds mass (and requires redesign).
<Pap> Maxsimal: testing contract fix now
<ferram4> Look, there's no compelling reason why we can't have a de Havilland Comet go into space and be fine.
<NathanKell> Again, *it's pressurizezd*
<NathanKell> I'm not saying you can't take pressurized cockpits to space!!!!!!!1111one
<ferram4> I'm making a joke.
<NathanKell> Sorry. Interwebs. :]
<Rokker> we need to add B-29 cockpits
<Rokker> that's the answer
<NathanKell> Ok. Let me know when you have.
<lamont> i got scuba gear and 100% O2 to breathe
<Pap> We need to use space designed hardware, that is the answer
<ferram4> I mean, go look up what happened to the Comets and you'll see how obvious the joke is.
<NathanKell> ferram4: I presumed you meant the redesign :P
<Rokker> ^
<Maxsimal> Btw one interesting thing I read was that the Swedes tried scuba diving on Hydrolox as a breathing gas.
<ferram4> That's no fun.
<NathanKell> heh
<soundnfury> ferram4: ehh, they'd be fine
<Rokker> and if say the original design could survive if it was brand new
<Rokker> it was the repeated pressurization and depressurization that did it
<soundnfury> the test airframe, which had been through some overpressure tests, survived *more* cycles than service airframes managed
<Pap> NathanKell: What do you need from me today?
<ferram4> Could be worse, could be the Aloha Airlines convertible.
<soundnfury> ferram4: alternatively, "the DH88 didn't have a pressurised cabin, what are you talking about" :P
<NathanKell> Pap: Look at that todo list, see if it's missing anything; if not, does anything seem like a thing you want to tackle?
<lamont> i think they actually cut trimix with hydrogen in order to avoid HPNS?
<Pap> I should do the contract payouts and the agents stuff
<NathanKell> Ok. Do we want to put off changing payouts until we have a better sense of costs?
<NathanKell> per Maxsimal I agree we need an audit. Which means I need to write maintenace today
<Pap> Ah, was just typing about that
<NathanKell> so nauts + buildings + KCT points cost money per day
<Pap> OK, I am good waiting on that
<Pap> I'll look at the new science bits then
<soundnfury> right, time to see if I can launch to geostationary from Iceland :/
<NathanKell> ok!
<Pap> Bornholio: are you around for a while today?
<NathanKell> soundnfury: All things are possible. Expense varies.
<soundnfury> (range limits put minimum inclination at about 80°)
<Bornholio> just a little bit
<soundnfury> NathanKell: this is true
<Pap> 2500 delta-v of plane change? More?
<NathanKell> Starwaster: Let me know when you're around so we can do cryo stuff?
<NathanKell> Pap: Less. Go super-synch
<lamont> oh no, it was 96% hydrogen 4% oxygen breathing gas, guy pushing it died on a demonstration dive to 520 ft
<Pap> Ah, so it is cheaper to go Super Sync and lower because the Inclination change will cost less?
<NathanKell> yep
<soundnfury> yeah, I will be going the supersync route
<Bornholio> pap what do you need?
<Pap> Bornholio: You looking at the Science list? I am going to try and determine what should be the order of importance on there
<Bornholio> just wanted to fill a couple more lines in (US/DMagic parts)
<Bornholio> all done till after dinner
<NathanKell> Oh! And I have a job for the non-C#/cfg inclined!!!
<NathanKell> Loading screens! And Loading Tips!
<egg> NathanKell: cristi in that thread was also mentioning Europa, does the limit need to be raised there?
<Maxsimal> Pap: Since you're our spreadsheet master, I think it'd be a good idea to put together a spreadsheet like the one you were using for sounding rockets, that everyone can contribute too
<NathanKell> egg: Dunno. Maybe?
<Maxsimal> Pap: It should include - what contract you're doing, what the payout is, what the cost for the ship you're flying is, what it's mass is, what the rollout cost is, what launchpad size you're using, and a notes section for anything relevant. Anything else on there?
<egg> dunno either; question is also whether this can wait until the reunification (though no idea when we'll get to that)
<NathanKell> I doubt it can wait. We're going to release RSS (with the new biomes) in the next week or two with the rest of all this
<NathanKell> so it'll get cleared up then
<egg> we don't have plans for what we'll do in Cesàro yet
<egg> NathanKell: no I mean whether Europa can wait
<egg> the Moon shouldn't have waited since june but that's another question
<egg> you should have lunar releases to fix the moon!
<Maxsimal> Gah I'm in croatia next week for a week :(
<NathanKell> egg: Yeah, I apologize for that. Kept thinking we'd be done Real Soon (tm) :(
<egg> NathanKell: I mean that's what happened to Principia Cardano
<egg> we were ready for release and then 1.2 hit
<egg> s/ready/almost ready/ rather which is the problem
<egg> so then we tried going to the new version, which turned into a rabbit hole
<egg> and ended up with 8 months between releases
<egg> then we decided to go with the "release whatever you have at a predetermined date" approach, which works *really well*
<egg> (and lunar is funny :-p)
<NathanKell> :)
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<lamont> release-early-release-often
<lamont> we also try to stick to a monthly release cadence at work
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<awang> Wait, KSP is getting DLC now?
<egg> lamont: Chrome is 6 weeks I think
<egg> phl suggested that, but then we came up with the lunar idea which is funnier
<awang> egg: PaaS?
<awang> Principia as a service?
<egg> also it's the full moon! we're halfway to чебышёв!
<Bornholio> hes got a crater and a 'roid named after him, lucky guy
<Pap> NathanKell: So currently, the RCS fuels are not placed anywhere in the Tree. There will be no unlocks for anyone playing right now
<Pap> I am going to patch them onto one of the files, just to remedy that, until we decide how to handle them
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v760g
<github> RP-0/Developmental caef6d6 NathanKell: Replace loading screens
<NathanKell> Pap: Ok! I'll go ahead and do the swapover now
<NathanKell> I got sidetracked, per the above commit :D
<Pap> Ah, then I will wait
<Pap> No problem!
<NathanKell> (and yes, it works ^_^ )
<NathanKell> You can add loading screens just by adding DXT1 dds files to that path
<Pap> Thanks a lot. Now I am going to be useless as I add multiple files!
<NathanKell> JPLRepo: Did you fix the loading screen bug btw?
<NathanKell> For now, since there seems to be a bug (or weird feature?) you only ever see one screen during loading. Ah well.
<Bornholio> I loaded this morning, should i load fresh dev's or not much changed?
<NathanKell> Fresh
<Pap> Bornholio: Wait a few minutes
<NathanKell> always fresh :P
<github> [RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v76ET
<github> RealismOverhaul/dev 4e081ca NathanKell: Centaur avionics mass tweak
<github> [RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v76Es
<github> RealismOverhaul/dev a55e824 Pap: NEW PART: Ranger Solar Panel, Modify RealChute Configs...