<Bornholio>
is sarbians link or your latest dev release appropriate?
<lamont>
ah, sarbian’s
<Bornholio>
are you moved in house now?
<lamont>
status of my latest dev is now busted, but sarbian’s is now strictly ahead of mine
<lamont>
moved in house?
<awang>
egg: "missing gravity model for Eeloo"
<Bornholio>
your peg stuff in in a MJ release land
<awang>
I screwed up my install, didn't I
<egg>
quite
<awang>
yay
<egg>
so there's a planet called eeloo and at the same time there's a gravity model file
<egg>
so you screwed up installing RSS I'd say
<lamont>
oh the old PEG stuff has been there for awhile
<awang>
Hmmm
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<Pap>
Bornholio: I added a Easter Egg for you in the newest release
<egg|zzz|egg>
easter me
<Pap>
lol egg
<Bornholio>
bunnies are gonna hand you to children in this release
<NathanKell>
uh oh...Pap?
<NathanKell>
We have a problem
<Pap>
damn, what happened?
<Bornholio>
yeah problem!
<Pap>
It was someone else
<NathanKell>
Pap: We need to set engine CONFIG costs before :AFTER[RealismOverhaulEngines]
<Pap>
Ah, so they cannot be part of zzzRP0
<Bornholio>
lol thats my fault, not sure why but is
<NathanKell>
indeed
<NathanKell>
because that's the pass that multiplies them by engine number
<Pap>
Will that affect the description or techs? Don't think so, right?
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<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: did you test the newest release with principia btw?
<Pap>
egg|zzz|egg: I am barely good enough to play with KSP physics let alone N-Body physics
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: no but to check that you haven't added something that crashes the game or something like that
WetLemons has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
<egg|zzz|egg>
hm though it might be tricky because Cayley is for 1.2.2...
<egg|zzz|egg>
blarg
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: also did you look at the pluto texture bug
<lamont>
huhwut is RP0 going 1.3.0?
<Bornholio>
after (looks at list) a while
<awang>
egg|zzz|egg: Yep, it's something on my end
<awang>
Don't know exactly what
<awang>
Bisecting will take a bit
<Bornholio>
check for extra or missing RSS?
<lamont>
okay, i thought i was parsing something wrong, i clearly am… but thats fine...
<awang>
RSS is definitely there
<awang>
I just reorganized the commits to put RSS/Kopernicus/Principia right next to each other
<awang>
then checked out the last of those commits
<awang>
So something after is screwing things up
<awang>
I think
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
egg|zzz|egg: Does Principia model 2-body systems whose barycenter is outside both bodies?
<awang>
Going through mods and looking for something that might mess with RSS related stuff
<awang>
Sigma Binary came up
<egg|zzz|egg>
uh, it does, in that it simulates Newtonian gravitation properly
<egg|zzz|egg>
sigma binary does a kludgy workaround that's incompatible with principia
<egg|zzz|egg>
but iirc disables itself in our presence? not sure
<awang>
....So that'd be it
<awang>
Hopefully
<egg|zzz|egg>
cc SigmaIT
<awang>
Uh
<awang>
"principia" doesn't appear to show up in the Sigma Binary git repo
<awang>
Unless you use a different string to indicate the presence of Principia?
<egg|zzz|egg>
well try stabbing it then, dunno
<Pap>
NathanKell: I want to set the cost of all of the parts I move out of the Start node to 1, but I don't want to overwrite their current entryCosts that are in the spreadsheet for *REASONS*. Which column supercedes the other?
<NathanKell>
Which column?
<NathanKell>
What do you mean?
<Pap>
We have some entryCosts listed in the entryCost column and then we have the ECM column
<NathanKell>
Ah.
<NathanKell>
ECM supercedes entryCost
<Pap>
I was going to create an ECM of all of those parts that would be cost = 1
<Pap>
Thank you
<NathanKell>
:)
<NathanKell>
Ok, think I got the RCS configs converted
<NathanKell>
let's see
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76zp
<Pap>
NathanKell: This really makes these loading times much more enjoyable!
<NathanKell>
:)
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v76ak
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev d97a1da NathanKell: Move RCS configs mostly into the Engine Config system. Support RcsNozzles field too. Ref #1748
<awang>
Woah
<awang>
That's pretty cool
<NathanKell>
Pap: We can also use JPLRepo's mod to replace the tips if we care to :)
<NathanKell>
At some point I want to replace the main menu too.
<NathanKell>
That's harder tho
<Pap>
:)
<awang>
I think it might be difficult to convince people that this is still KSP :P
<NathanKell>
That *is* the point of a Total Conversion :P
<awang>
I now see why it's Realism *Overhaul*
<awang>
Was this kind of extensive change part of the original plan?
<ferram4>
Of Coursh
<awang>
I guess the better question is what parts were you *not* planning to change?
* UmbralRaptor
vaguely ponders what appropriate tips would be that make sense for RO, but not KSP.
<UmbralRaptor>
Inner and outer transfers? Sun-stationary orbits?
<NathanKell>
"tips"
<NathanKell>
Loading tips like "Reticulating splines"
<awang>
"Don't mess up"
<NathanKell>
Unless we want to go serious
<NathanKell>
"Shepard, don't *(*@ this up"
<UmbralRaptor>
NathanKell: well, obviously that. But I think that was in stock KSP also at some point?
<ferram4>
"Spin Stabilization Is Fun!"
<ferram4>
"Engine-rich Exhaust"
<UmbralRaptor>
Поехали!
<awang>
"Hard Start"
<ferram4>
Oh, I think I found a possible reason for why the American kerolox engines are so extremely rich.
<awang>
"Installing sleeping eggs"
<ferram4>
Apparently, combustion stability is heavily impacted by mixture ratio.
* UmbralRaptor
wants to know what the story behind "Engine-rich exhaust" is, and why would anyone want so much Isp-robbing copper. :D
<ferram4>
UmbralRaptor, it is the term for the result of an insufficiently cooled engine.
<UmbralRaptor>
awang: "%s/ecc/egg/g"
<ferram4>
Because you fucked up
<UmbralRaptor>
ah
<lamont>
well that launch was faintly ridiculous
<ferram4>
Or more properly, because the engineers fucked up
<awang>
UmbralRaptor: Huh?
<awang>
Where'd the "ecc" come from?
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<UmbralRaptor>
awang: uh, sort of how eggbot (and egg|zzz|egg himself) will do sound-alike silliness. So eccentric -> eggcentric
<UmbralRaptor>
hrm. My regex is bad.
<awang>
Oh! That's a good one
<awang>
"Increasing eggcentricity"
<lamont>
ferram: the space shuttle PEG code can handle your Saturn-I-piggy with 4 RL10s, but it needs to chuck it up to at least 700x700
<Bornholio>
yes regex is bad, he's mean too :P
<UmbralRaptor>
"Finding eggsact solutions to the Kepler problem"
<awang>
People are going to be so confused when they see these loading tips
<awang>
Wonder what the forum posts are going to be like
<UmbralRaptor>
"Shaving yaks"
<awang>
What about all the channel quotes?
<UmbralRaptor>
(And "Constructing bikesheds")
<ferram4>
"9/10 RO developers recommend PEGing your rockets" :P
<awang>
"Mooing at MERCURY6"
<UmbralRaptor>
"Rewriting everything in FORTRAN 77" (or Ada)
<lamont>
omg, not PEGing, never PEGing...
<Bornholio>
optimizing fortran 77 codebase
<lamont>
lol
<awang>
NathanKell: I hope you're writing these down :P
<ferram4>
"Creating Terrible Replacement 'Tips'"
<Bornholio>
^^^^
<ferram4>
It could just be a bunch of random RO quotes.
<awang>
s/could just/will
<SpecimenSpiff>
"Checking if Mimas, is, in fact, a moon"
<Bornholio>
reinstating planet staus to pluto
<SpecimenSpiff>
"knitting vests"
<Bornholio>
Deicing o-rings
<UmbralRaptor>
"Activating Kozai Mechanism"
<UmbralRaptor>
Bornholio: AAAAAAAAAAA!!!
<UmbralRaptor>
For maximum darkness: "Replacing engineering hats with management hats"
<SpecimenSpiff>
noooooo
<Bornholio>
what color was sally rides eyes
<UmbralRaptor>
Blueish?
<NathanKell>
THE BLACK OF SPACE
<Bornholio>
one blew that way so your right
<SpecimenSpiff>
for some reason Im suddenly reminded of a story I read ages ago about one of the engineers that loved to mix fruit punch, dry ice, and a mix of food coloring to get that exact rfna appearance and booby-trap other peoples offices with it
<Bornholio>
"AGATHORN!"
<SpecimenSpiff>
What did Sally Ride say to her husband as they left the house before launch? "you finish loading the car, I'll feed the fish"
<NathanKell>
Pap: Can you apply `1000, rcsMulti` to all multinozzle RCS blocks in the sheet?
<SpecimenSpiff>
I havent heard that one since back in the 80s. now it can wait another 20+ years again
<UmbralRaptor>
SpecimenSpiff: you're thinking of Christa McAuliffe
<Bornholio>
its been so long since then
<UmbralRaptor>
Sally Ride died in 2012.
<xShadowx>
"replacing cartoon physics"
<xShadowx>
"Mods are cheating!"
* UmbralRaptor
has flashbacks.
<UmbralRaptor>
"MechJeb is cheating." "Part-clipping is immoral."
<xShadowx>
"You know you'll be Agathorned"
<xShadowx>
"Removing RO" ;3
<lamont>
“Chilling O-Rings”
<UmbralRaptor>
"Inhibiting Red Fuming Nitric Acid"
<NathanKell>
Pap: We also need to set up a system to deal with moving identicalParts over to the new system
<UmbralRaptor>
"Scoring all 4s on the NFPA hazard diamond"
<ferram4>
THe best part is, I can support that fuel in ProcEngines! :D
<awang>
"Spilling chlorine trifluoride"
<lamont>
“Buckling COPVs”
<awang>
"Breaking tiles"
<lamont>
“Converting from Metric to Imperial”
<xShadowx>
"Connecting to hollywood database for moon landing images"
<ferram4>
Ahck
<ferram4>
Don't remind me
<NathanKell>
****** Does anyone have an active career with multiple launch sites (i.e. KCT upgrades in more than one place) ?
<ferram4>
I found a NASA paper that's basically rocket design 101 but it includes stuff in Imperial.
<xShadowx>
poor you :P
<UmbralRaptor>
ferram4: I'm reminded of all those Apollo related papers that explicitly mention an exemption to let them use Imperial.
<ferram4>
It's not too bad until it gets to the empirical stuff.
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<ferram4>
Where the concept of unit cancellation doesn't seem to be thought of at all.
<xShadowx>
"Removing soviet records from history, we all know they were fake"
<Bornholio>
appointing Rogers Commision
<UmbralRaptor>
"Summoning Phantom Cosmonauts"
<UmbralRaptor>
(Exorcising?)
<Bornholio>
placing Chimps and dogs in harms way
<Bornholio>
Hamming it up
<UmbralRaptor>
Angering alligators
<xShadowx>
"Retiring space research, nobody cares about space"
<Bornholio>
replenishing Vodka reserves
<ferram4>
"Hand-crafting Rocket Engines"
<xShadowx>
somebody is writing these down right?;3
<UmbralRaptor>
I assume someone has logs.
<ferram4>
Goddammit. The only efficient way to actually calculate bell nozzle contours is via lookup tables.
<xShadowx>
"Contacting hollywood to make Mars landing"
<ferram4>
I was hoping for viable equations.
<Bornholio>
"Give me a napkin quick"
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<awang>
"Fitting square peg to round hole"
<xShadowx>
"Flattening the earth"
stratochief is now known as stratosleep
<awang>
"Downloading Photoshop"
<xShadowx>
"reporting bug without including logs"
<awang>
"Asking when next update will be released"
* xShadowx
places awang under a rocket engine
<awang>
:(
<UmbralRaptor>
"Regenerating coolant"
<UmbralRaptor>
"Overclocking turbopumps"
<UmbralRaptor>
"Feeding pressure"
<awang>
"Staging combustion"
<Bornholio>
can we use the april foolsday code to do this day in space history :P
<xShadowx>
"Making things harder"
<xShadowx>
"Corrupting saves"
<Pap>
NathanKell: Sorry, i was AFK, yes, I will add the RCS TAgs
<NathanKell>
no probs!
<NathanKell>
Working on adding maintenance
<UmbralRaptor>
xShadowx: "Abandoning in place"
<Pap>
NathanKell: RCS is tagged
<xShadowx>
"Reverting Pap's hard work" ;3
<Pap>
"Fixing Pap's Shoddy Work"
<xShadowx>
"Fetching credit card info to make donations"
<NathanKell>
And yep, I feel much happier with those screens in :)
* xShadowx
wants more
<Pap>
xShadowx: I will keep adding, I don't have too many worthy ones
<UmbralRaptor>
"Reviewing pull requests"
<Pap>
^^^ That should be "Leaving Pull Requests for Months"
<awang>
"Ignoring Pull Requests"
<blowfish>
hmm, RO doesn't have an X-405H does it?
<Pap>
blowfish: yes it does
<Pap>
Well, it has the Engine Config for it
<xShadowx>
Pap: some nice scenery sometimes on NK's streams, but if you're taking requests, a sunrise from either launchpad or runway with a craft, and another sunrise from orbit, and from moon surface, maybe rig up a apollo 11 craft and cheat it to moon for the whole apollo 11 pic
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
How bad of an idea are asteroids with Principia?
<blowfish>
Pap: I don't see it in master. Am I missing something or is it under a different branch or does it have a different name?
<xShadowx>
awang: seem to work fine
<Pap>
In the Dev branch blowfish, it was only added a week ago or so
<awang>
xShadowx: Something's causing my framerate to tank
<awang>
And on higher warps it effectively freezes
<blowfish>
ah cool I see it
<awang>
Wondering if all the asteroids are adding too much to calculate in a timely manner
<blowfish>
I found a couple of pictures of it a bit ago actually
<UmbralRaptor>
awang: for spacecraft sized rocks or something Vesta scale, should be okay? 67/P is apparently a big hassle to make with spherical harmonics.
<xShadowx>
"Downloading more RAM"
<SRBuchanan>
'Kutting Runges.'
<Pap>
"Dropping Your Framerates"
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Does KSP have a built-in profiler?
<awang>
Like the one in Minecraft?
<xShadowx>
np++ and regex chat log, can make insta list of all suggestions :P
<awang>
UmbralRaptor: I *think* these are the ones that RSS generates when Custom Asteroids is installed
<SRBuchanan>
'Cancelling Funding'
<SRBuchanan>
'Complaining About Unfinished Programs'
<xShadowx>
"Retiring space shuttle"
<xShadowx>
"Space is boring"
<SRBuchanan>
'Transferring Orbits'
<SRBuchanan>
'Effecting Oberths'
<UmbralRaptor>
xShadowx: as opposed to quantum mechanics, which is bohring?
<NathanKell>
Apparenlty his campaign didn’t start til the 50s.
<NathanKell>
But the term itself went back to the VfR, one presumes, in the 1920s.
<SRBuchanan>
I always thought 'Burnout' had too much of an implication of exhaustion of fuel supply. 'Cutoff' is more broad.
<NathanKell>
before their partial absorption in the Heer.
<NathanKell>
Yeah, Brennschluss serves for both, whereas in the US we use either burnout or cutoff depending
<SRBuchanan>
I have always liked brennschluss because of its exclusivity in the English language.
<SRBuchanan>
Similar to how sailing has its own family of words no longer in use anywhere else in modern English, or in any modern language in some cases.
<SRBuchanan>
That said, I have no trouble applying knots to a sailboat, but if you try to tell me a stage's downrange velocity in knots I will probably flip a table.
<SRBuchanan>
Stock KSP kind of tries to do that with their 1.25-2.5-3.75-meter parts.
<UmbralRaptor>
xShadowx: hah!
<SRBuchanan>
Since everything is run on computers now, a number system that works on a multiple of two and five makes a lot less sense. Divide things into pairs and halves and then clump them up as eighths for your distinct digits.
<UmbralRaptor>
"Installing BARIS"
<SRBuchanan>
Imperial measures of volume already somewhat do this, with 8 fluid ounces to the cup, two cups to a pint, two pints to a quart, etc.
<SRBuchanan>
As opposed to imperial distance units, which are a big heap of crap.
<UmbralRaptor>
3 teaspoons to the tablespoon, 231 cubic inches to the gallon.
<UmbralRaptor>
Varying numbers of gallons to the barrel.
<xShadowx>
a barrel is 55 gallons :)
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76o5
<github>
RP-0/Developmental ad5ddc7 NathanKell: Don't update crew data every tick
<NathanKell>
Pap: Anything else on that list you want to tackle? I’d say failing that, best to go through the parts through 1962 or so and see if their entry costs are sane, and/or if they need to be tied to something central
<UmbralRaptor>
xShadowx: Except when it holds oil.
<SRBuchanan>
What ARE the units for price, anyways?
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76oN
<SRBuchanan>
Anything taken by a government employee in their official capacity is free to the public unless it is classified, so we can use a lot of NASA images.
<UmbralRaptor>
"Adding more boosters" weirdly enough can be justified in both stock and RO.
* UmbralRaptor
stares at the Delta II.
<SRBuchanan>
Yeah. Atlas was not originally designed to have boosters, thus the external ducting and resultant screwy booster configurations.
<UmbralRaptor>
Wait, the Atlas V wasn't? o_O
<UmbralRaptor>
I would have expected boosters to be simply assumed to be part of the EELV program, particularly given the successes of the Titans and Deltas.
<SRBuchanan>
When I told the guidance guys over at KSP2Mars that we were going to have asymmetrically-boosted variants they about had a fit.
<UmbralRaptor>
Hah.
<UmbralRaptor>
Don't let them fly OSIRIS-REx.
<Pap>
SRBuchanan: Is that still going on, KSP2Mars?
<SRBuchanan>
Pretty half-heartedly at this point.
<SRBuchanan>
What it ended up coming down to is that there was a lot of grindy work that needed to get done, a lot of it to do with coding, and there were not enough people willing and able to do it.
<SRBuchanan>
A lot of the team members, myself included, had real life get in the way as well.
<SRBuchanan>
UmbralRaptor: The Atlas V first stage was designed with booster-mounting in mind but did not get rid of some of the features from earlier Atlas variants that necessitated asymmetrical booster mounting.
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<UmbralRaptor>
huh
<SRBuchanan>
The large external liquid oxygen pipe and equipment pod are design features that trace back to the original Atlas missile, which was never designed to have boosters.
<SRBuchanan>
Keeping those things on the exterior means that the actual tank construction can be extremely simple with less interruptions in their structure.
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|NOMZ
<SRBuchanan>
The RD-180 has a lot of gimbal authority, so it can accommodate the asymmetry without any trouble.
<Pap>
There is someone streaming RSS/RO/RP-0 right now on a seamless 3 monitor setup
<blowfish>
I was able to get it to converge occasionally by messing with it after booster pitch end
<Pap>
Alright, let me load again
<blowfish>
okay hmm
<blowfish>
stupid early tech, I'm redlining this shit too
<lamont>
yeah you might be able to let the pitch program fly manually and whack “reinit” occasionally, but it really needs a coast phase
<NathanKell>
There should be a screen every 24s right now (load time normalized to 4 minutes). If we add more screens, they’ll change faster.
<Pap>
Awesome
<lamont>
space-shuttle PEG actually has a slot in the algorithm for a coast phase. it won’t optimize it, but NASA would set it.
<lamont>
i haven’t implemented that yet, but i really should
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76yp
<github>
RP-0/Developmental ff4d54b NathanKell: Nope, I borked it.
<NathanKell>
Now normalized to 3 minutes, but I had something weird going on before I think
<NathanKell>
Let’s see if that fixes things
<lamont>
you can probably just thrust-limit those upper stages down to 1.00 vac TWR or something
<NathanKell>
Oh
<NathanKell>
wait
<NathanKell>
no
<NathanKell>
I re-borked it
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<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76Sv
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 3fb15d7 NathanKell: Right the first time, bug was elsewhere.
<NathanKell>
Yup, works fine now
<NathanKell>
Haha!
<NathanKell>
I had to add some fake loading systems, to get around the bug
<blowfish>
thrust limit on these engines? Not likely I don't think
<Pap>
Rotating images working for me!
<blowfish>
yeah, did manage to get to orbit but had to coast for a while before inserting on the 3rd stage
<NathanKell>
\o/
<lamont>
does thrust limiting not work with RO engines?
<blowfish>
oh wait, 2nd stage is way under its rated burn time, that would probably do it
<Pap>
lamont: Most engines cannot throttle
<NathanKell>
Pap: Every time there will be a random order, it’s normalized to 3 minutes total runtime (We can set that higher, to 4 or 5, depending on load times), and it picks up all images in the folder
<NathanKell>
I’m disgustingly proud tbh
<Pap>
I think 3 minutes is good. We can then add a ton of images to it and people will stay entertained through the 10 minute install
<Pap>
Oooh, the X-15 just popper up, it is nice
<NathanKell>
Then we need to reset internally to 10 :P
<NathanKell>
Like I said, image duration is normalized ;)
<NathanKell>
More images you add, shorter time onscreen
<lamont>
yeah, i don’t think i ever checked the thrust limiter setting in RO, i normally never had a need to touch it outside of stock
<Pap>
This really adds something awesome
<Pap>
\o/
<NathanKell>
The downside is it borks the progress bar a bit
<NathanKell>
But will be fixed by 1.3.1
<NathanKell>
I’m willing to trade off a bad progress bar for PRETTY
<blowfish>
lamont: anyway, thanks for the help
<Pap>
So about 1.3/1.3.1...Are we going to wind up releasing 2 save breaking releases too close together?
<NathanKell>
OH maintenance has a huge issue
<blowfish>
PEG is the best thing ever
<lamont>
yeah, sorry i can’t really fix that, it just wasn’t really made for that rocket
<NathanKell>
Pap: when we go 1.2 to 1.3 it won’t be savebreaking, no?
<lamont>
gives me some motivation to add the coast phase knob at least to the next version
<Pap>
No? That's great, I always just assume that new versions = new saves (I've never tried to move one over)
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76SZ
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 7f51f61 NathanKell: Fix a *major* bug in maintenance.
<NathanKell>
Pap: 1.1 to 1.2 wasn’t savebreaking as I recall?
<NathanKell>
Well, the contracts were
<NathanKell>
but OTHERWISE not :D
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: about the load time prettyness -> <xShadowx> someone make an MM patch with loops, neverending to stay at load screen ;3
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<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76SK
<github>
RP-0/Developmental c5415cb NathanKell: Fix maintenance moar. Now properly saves/loads next tick time, will always pop on first load of session, and will skip the first two frames to be sure it binds correctly.
<NathanKell>
Hmm. That broke it :(
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<Pap>
I am off to bed. Good luck with the fix! I'll test in the AM.
<Pap>
o/
Pap is now known as Pap|Sleep
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v769c
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 93d15ef NathanKell: Found the problem. Also renormalzied screens to 240.
<NathanKell>
Pap|Sleep: Literally two minutes later. :D
<NathanKell>
Night!
<Pap|Sleep>
Lol
<Pap|Sleep>
So normalized means it will take the number of seconds and divide by the number of pictures and display the picture for that length of time?
<lamont>
well i’ve got some kind of horrible bug in the PEG code, yet it still nails the damn orbit exactly at the end
<lamont>
th 1228 dV in steering losses are a bit much tho
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<ferram4>
NathanKell, blowfish, question: can we turn off the thrust limiter tweakable for engines that can't be thrust limited?
<blowfish>
I believe we can
<blowfish>
create an issue for it?
<ferram4>
Because I recall Scott being slightly annoyed at that not working when the option was available.
<NathanKell>
Yep, we can
<ferram4>
RO, I assume?
<blowfish>
RF I would think
<NathanKell>
Solver or RF should do it
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
ModuleEnginesRF.OnLoad I think.
<lamont>
^ see my confusion above because i’ve seen that slider before and never thought through what that would do in RO
<Qboid>
[#1749] title: Hide Thrust Limiter on Engines with Fixed Thrust | We leave the thrust limiter visible on so many engines where it does nothing. We should hide it for all of these. | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/issues/1749
<ferram4>
I guess close that and add one in the right spot
<NathanKell>
Nah, I just closed it with the commit :P
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76HT
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 158bf6f NathanKell: Fix bugs in rate math.
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<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76Hw
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 25dadd6 NathanKell: Space out the maintenance display. Lower rates.
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<NathanKell|Twitch>
!tell Pap* Need to make the tech node contract an auto-accept contract like the records contracts
<Qboid>
NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang>
What's up with the RP-0 tank pricing?
<awang>
Just started a save
<awang>
Aerobee FT-LF3 tank: 40 funds
<awang>
Proc tank with slightly larger size, higher temp tolerance: 3 funds
<awang>
What am I missing?
<blowfish>
awang: tooling costs for the procedural tank?
<awang>
blowfish: Huh? Don't get what you're getting at
<blowfish>
are you playing with the newest stuff?
<blowfish>
developmental branch of RP-0 I think
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v76NL
<NathanKell>
!tell Maxsimal IMO sounding rocket payloads are nowhere near dense enough. They should be about .5 to .6kg/L, based on the Aerobee 150’s payload capacity and payload compartment volume.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76AO
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 96146e9 NathanKell: Move resources over to RP-0, rename the Bus ones to Payload.
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<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v76A3
<NathanKell|AWAY>
!tell Pap* give me a list of the circular entrycosts if you would?
<Qboid>
NathanKell|AWAY: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Maxsimal>
o/
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [08.08.2017 07:50:20]: "IMO sounding rocket payloads are nowhere near dense enough. They should be about .5 to .6kg/L, based on the Aerobee 150’s payload capacity and payload compartment volume."
<Qboid>
Maxsimal|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Maxsimal|Work>
!tell NathanKell: From a quick bit of research, the Aerobee 150A had a nose cone for payload that with ¬180-190 liters of volume (estimate because it's an ogive cone) + the possibility of payload extensions. Without extensions, that yields a density of .36 for the maximum weight payload (68kg). With the extensions of course, it could get lower. Maybe a density of .3?
<Qboid>
Maxsimal|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Maxsimal|Work>
!tell NathanKell: Pap also suggested at one point that we break the payloads up into different ones for the different sounding contract types, to prevent people who 'cheat' by clicking fast enough to accept more than one launch, or just to allow all the sounding rocket contracts to be available (I was trying to block people from completing multiple contracts with the same payload). We could make payloads for 'easy' be higher density then, for instance.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Maxsimal|Work>
!tell NathanKell: http://rasaero.com/dloads/The%20Aerobee%20Sounding%20Rockets.pdf - typical payload extensions pictured add another ¬62 liters, bringing the density for max payload down to .27. I'll adjust the sounding rocket payload up to .25.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<BadRocketsCo>
Howdy
<BadRocketsCo>
Boy, an A-10 just flew over my head
<Rokker>
BadRocketsCo: neat
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<awang>
Quick question about RP-0 costs
<awang>
For the first sounding rocket, I could pick either the premade Aerobee tank, or use proc tanks
<awang>
Proc tanks are 1/10th of the cost, though, hold about the same or more fuel IIRC, has a higher temp tolerance, and slightly lower crash speed (12 vs 14 m/s)
<awang>
What's the reason to use the premade tank?
<awang>
Or is this a costing thing that will be eventually fixed?
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<Maxsimal|Work>
There's a lot of development going on with that now
<Pap|AFK>
awang: are you on the development branch, or the release version?
<Qboid>
Pap|AFK: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [08.08.2017 06:34:09]: "Need to make the tech node contract an auto-accept contract like the records contracts"
<Qboid>
Pap|AFK: NathanKell|AWAY left a message for you in #RO [08.08.2017 07:54:25]: "give me a list of the circular entrycosts if you would?"
<awang>
Pap|AFK: Release
<awang>
I've been considering switching over to dev, but wasn't sure if the important mods were up to date
<Pap|AFK>
Yeah, that is why you have read all of these new costs that NK is working on
<awang>
And hadn't gotten around to checking
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
Hm
<awang>
Time for some research then
<Maxsimal|Work>
Release version, yes, the tanks costs with procedural vs pre-bought is off, but that's being worked on right now, in other words.
<awang>
Glad to hear that
<awang>
How bad of an idea would it be to take the RO/RP-0 dev config files and drop them into a 1.2.2 install?
<Bornholio>
they are 1.2.2
<Maxsimal|Work>
You need an updated set of RF .dll tooI don't have the link with me right now
<Pap|AFK>
awang: I would wait on the dev version
<Pap|AFK>
If you are planning any kind of career game, it changes multiple times a day
<awang>
Bornholio: Isn't dev for 1.3?
<awang>
Maxsimal|Work: I may have it in scrollback... Wasn't paying attention at the time
<awang>
Pap|AFK: Alright, will do
<Pap|AFK>
awang: No it is not. We are releasing again for 1.2.2 before we start the migratino to 1.3
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
My bad then
<Bornholio>
several more mods need to update to 1.3 before RO can switch
<awang>
Fair enough
<Maxsimal|Work>
I wonder how much the dlc and 1.3.1 patch will impact us.
<awang>
DLC might be interesting
<awang>
Might "steal" some players away
<awang>
Is there anything like a changelist for 1.3.1?
<awang>
Or not until release?
<awang>
Does anyone know how complex the orbital decay mod was?
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<Bornholio>
pap|AFK where should i look for an easteregg? Also is reward level still x5 or contracts have it worked in?
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<Maxsimal|Work>
!tell NathanKell: So do Kerbals that are stupider last LONGER in the space program?
<Qboid>
Maxsimal|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap|AFK>
Bornholio I changed the mod description text to bold and green. :) I have been using anywhere between 400 and 500 to try and test. It 8s not built into contracts yet as we are trying to figure out what the right amount is
<Bornholio>
cool, super green yes i will notice now :)
<Bornholio>
So I can set engine specifications color red in my NTR's using that same technique! what config has that?
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap|AFK: I believe we're actually going to have to scale contracts nonlinearly if we want to match NK's new tuning. Earlier, unmanned contracts might only need a 2x multiplier, but later, heavy, manned contracts might need 10x. It's because he's made launchpad size affect rollout costs pretty dramatically. That's why we need a big costs spreadsheet to look at costs &rollout for launching Saturn V vs launching a sounding rocket.
<awang>
egg|afk|egg: My issues were indeed caused by Sigma Binary
<awang>
That and a combination of not catching everything when removing unsupported bodies from RSS Expanded
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<Maxsimal>
o/
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<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Wonder how HyperEdit interacts with Principia...
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: My understanding is that 150lb (68kg) was the *nominal* payload, hence the name Aerobee 150. That is, only bulkier payloads (or payloads going to lower than 270km) needed the extended nosecone
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK meant to say: Maxsimal: My understanding is that 150lb (68kg) was the *nominal* payload, hence the name Aerobee 150. That is, only bulkier payloads (or heavier payloads, going to lower than 270km) needed the extended nosecone
<NathanKell|WORK>
!tell soundnfury so...I have a request, when you're around.
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Maxsimal>
NathanKell|Work: Hrmm ok, I thought 150lbs was the max payload. Ok well, I can adjust the sounding rocket density to .5 - but those later sounding rockets definitely had room for lower density payloads.
<Maxsimal>
Also I have to run now, heading home, will be back in an hour or two.
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<Maxsimal>
o/
<SpecimenSpiff>
Good morning
<Maxsimal>
Anyone who knows git around?
<a_schack>
Ah, the joys and frustrations of having caught the RP-0 bug again
<Maxsimal>
regex: Because I don't really know how to un-fuck myself if I enter something wrong and it happened before, do you know what specifically I have to enter for step 4?
<regex>
KSP-RO/RP-0
<regex>
The owner is KSP-RO
<regex>
The repo you want to pull from is RP-0
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<regex>
If you're worried, make a copy of the current directory on your computer.
<regex>
I don't know what brach you want, but they're plain text descriptors, check the branch drop-down on the github page for RP-0
<Maxsimal>
regex: Ok and for step 6, to commit the merge? Sorry I'm really new to git bash - I've only been using the git app
<regex>
git commit -m "<message>"
<regex>
then
<regex>
git push
<regex>
Oh wait, they cover that in a later step.
<regex>
just do
<regex>
git commit -m "<message>"
<Maxsimal>
$ git commit -m "commiting upstream merge" On branch Developmental Your branch is ahead of 'origin/Developmental' by 98 commits. (use "git push" to publish your local commits) nothing to commit, working tree clean
<regex>
Oh, do a
<regex>
git status
<Maxsimal>
I thought my branch is behind origin/developmental
<regex>
and then if you need to do
<regex>
git add <things>
<awang>
origin is your fork
<Maxsimal>
On branch Developmental Your branch is ahead of 'origin/Developmental' by 98 commits. (use "git push" to publish your local commits) nothing to commit, working tree clean
<Maxsimal>
ok
<Maxsimal>
So this merge made a new branch?
<awang>
I don't think so
<regex>
No, you should have merged it into your working branch
<awang>
Should have advanced the tip of the branch you were originally on
<awang>
So you're still on the same branch
<awang>
^What regex said
<regex>
This is why I hate git, it's confusing AF
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<regex>
OTOH it's very good for handling large teams so...
<awang>
Open-source project UX in a nutshell
<regex>
lol
<Maxsimal>
regex: Tell me about it. P4 I learned pretty easy, - first time I think someone helped me set up a workspace and then I didn't have much trouble. Git is a PITA so far
<regex>
It's your only option for worldly projects though.
<awang>
git is pretty nice once you get the hang of it
<awang>
But I'd guess you've heard that one before
<regex>
lol, haven't we all
<awang>
Interactive rebase is the greatest thing since sliced bread
<awang>
Or git bisect
<awang>
idk
<Maxsimal>
yeah, vi was nice once you got the hang of it. Doesn't mean that everyone should still be using vi.
<regex>
Just need someone other than programmers to write the documentation.
<Pena>
Maxsimal: that's why we have vim
<regex>
Although tbh the problem with git is that it needs a "concepts" document more than anything
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<Pena>
we use Subversion at work and it works very well with very small teams.. me and my buddy :)
<regex>
Yeah, git is overkill for two people.
<regex>
but svn is terrible for anything more than like, five.
<leudaimon|work>
man, whenever I peek into the latest commits in RO and RP-0 it looks like I've been away for a month! what is this maintenance cost that is referred to in some commits?
<dxdy>
isnt there now permanent mainteannce per kct upgrade points or something like that? just speculating though
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maintenance accounts for:
<NathanKell|WORK>
* Facility level (a tiny fraction of the facility purchase price)
<NathanKell|WORK>
* KCT build points across all KSCs
<NathanKell|WORK>
* KCT research rate
<NathanKell|WORK>
* Astronauts on staff (modified by Astronaut Complex level)
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: dxdy ^
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<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: hmm?
<Qboid>
soundnfury: NathanKell|WORK left a message for you in #RO [08.08.2017 17:03:44]: "so...I have a request, when you're around."
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: So. You made the GUI for RIS. Is there any way I might be able to entice you to do some GUI work for RP-0? :]
<NathanKell|WORK>
In particular the maintenance stuff really shouldn't be via popups
<NathanKell|WORK>
(And ferram offered the use of something to display tooling)
<ferram4>
Simple dropdown select menu. Very nice little thing.
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<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: I think — and I hope you'll take this in the spirit it's intended — that that's the first time anyone has ever _asked_ me to do GUI work.
<soundnfury>
Particularly someone who's seen my previous forays into that territory ;)
<NathanKell|WORK>
:D :D
<soundnfury>
However, if I successfully have time and being-able-to-be-arsed-with-coding-that-day for it, sure.
<NathanKell|WORK>
:)
<soundnfury>
I haven't actually tried the new Development branch RP-0 yet, so I don't know what you're wanting
<NathanKell|WORK>
Because I'm swamped adding the backends, so I def need someone to do UI, and your RIS thing is fine. Although I'll worry if you manage to get curses in KSP.
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: We now have:
<NathanKell|WORK>
* Tooling (diameter/length of all proc parts/fairings/bases/etc)
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: the Atlantic Ocean cannot stop ncurses
<NathanKell|WORK>
* Crew retirement and crew going on leave after missions
<NathanKell|WORK>
* Maintenance (see above)
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Shortly we will have training prior to missions too
<soundnfury>
What is the maintenance of is actually do? Why does it need a UI?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Gonna exhume what magico13 did here http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/131381-requestidea-kerbal-training-and-other-time-based-kerbal-mechanics/&
<soundnfury>
I am excited by the notion of crew training and leave, that sounds great :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Right now there's just a popup every hour gametime saying what your maintenance rates are (facilities, integration/pad teams [BP/sec], research teams [research rate], astronauts)
<NathanKell|WORK>
It states costs per day and per year
<NathanKell|WORK>
Retirement times are shown in the AC (I hacked the tooltips there \o/ ) so that's ok
<soundnfury>
so what you need for maintenance is basically just an AppLauncher button to bring up the "here is your budget spreadsheet Commander" window
<soundnfury>
instead of it popping up every hour?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yeah, but we might want to make it have (gasp) tabs
<NathanKell|WORK>
so you can see at a glance that, then retirements and training, then tooling...
<soundnfury>
that all sounds eminently doable
<NathanKell|WORK>
\o/
<NathanKell|WORK>
Can you think of any other RP-0 stuff that should be GUI'd?
<Maxsimal>
List of tooled tanks?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Also, can you (OR ANYONE, HI CHAT) think of *bonuses* from training, rather than penalties? So far I can really only think of penalties (either "can't fly the craft if you haven't been trained" or "so scared from flying untrained you retire afterwards")
<soundnfury>
re GUI, nothing comes to mind, but maybe after I've tried new-RP-0 I'll have a list of pain points
<NathanKell|WORK>
We want there to be some use in training, adding game modes that are purely sticks is not ~fun~
<NathanKell|WORK>
ok
<szyzyg>
I tell you my consistent UI problem is matching fuels to engines when I have 2 engines with slightly different fuel mixtures - not what you were asking, but you made me remember.
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: better trained = more science return?
<soundnfury>
since you're not too busy vomiting in the experiments?
<szyzyg>
no you don't get it the vomit *is* the experiment
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<leudaimon|work>
NathanKell|WORK: all this stuff is awesome!
<NathanKell|WORK>
SOKERBAL
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<Maxsimal>
Less oxygen use from reduced panicing?
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: Ah, the other tab: Crew assignments.
<soundnfury>
szyzyg that reminds me, is EMRController ready for prime time yet?
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: oh, as in "who's training for what"?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Who's training to be in the same crew.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Crews that train together perform better together
<NathanKell|WORK>
And if they hate each other, they retire after the mission.
<soundnfury>
ah yes
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: did you mean rsparkyc? I thought EMRController was his?
<soundnfury>
had you any particular historical examples in mind? xD
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<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: I just meant that szyzyg's complaint about fuel mixtures reminded me of it
<szyzyg>
The engine UI will show fuel consumption rates, but not ratios which makes it not trivial to pick the right fuel.
<leudaimon|work>
sorry NathanKell|WORK I mean all the stuff that you have been discussing, I was AFK since my comment 1hr ago
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: Wait why did I say leudaimon|Work then >.>
<NathanKell|WORK>
sorry leudaimon|Work
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: I was wondering that :P
<leudaimon|work>
lol
<soundnfury>
szyzyg: middle-click on the engine, it'll show you the percentages
<soundnfury>
alternatively after a while you learn off by heart the ratios for your favourite engines ;)
<NathanKell|WORK>
szyzyg: yeah, RF assumes constant mixture ratio for autofill
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: I think the point is under EMR changes that autofill won't hold
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<NathanKell|WORK>
szyzyg: unless you mean normally, in which case, yes, the tank GUI shows the available autofill ratios and what engine(s) use them, and right-clicking on a tank also gives those options
* xShadowx
pokes NathanKell|WORK with a PM
<xShadowx>
hmm maintainance costs ^.^ could be fun
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
o/ uhm. my Communotron HG-55 dish antennae just burned up in circular orbit around Venus.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
6800km altitude.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
is there some form of radiation belt or sth?
<leudaimon|work>
NathanKell|WORK: maybe this information is more KCT related than RP-0, but knowing in advance what are the building tiers (especially for R&D and VAB) as well as the expected time to complete the upgrade before purchasing it would both be nice
<leudaimon|work>
I'm thinking about other potentially useful info/gui... I'd love to be able to know while inside the R&D building what techs are unlocked but didn't complete yet too
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Hypergolic_Skunk: what RO? release, git, what branch?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell|WORK: it is two to three weeks old. not sure if it's still a problem?
<ferram4>
...couldn't we just have the RF filling tweakables have the engine name in them?
<NathanKell|WORK>
ferram4: I guess so, yes.
<ferram4>
I'd think that if the problem is limited space that the engine name is more important than the exact fuel ratios.
<NathanKell|WORK>
ferram4: Multiple engines would just get long
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah
<ferram4>
Or, idea.
<ferram4>
Have the filling twekables put in two groups; one to engines that can be reached through fuel flow, one that can't. By default, hide the latter unless you click another button somewhere.
<ferram4>
Then, if you're trying to fill the tanks, the only options will be for engines that can actually draw from those tanks.
<soundnfury>
ferram4: well volunteered
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<awang>
NathanKell|WORK: It's not really realistic, but maybe training bonuses could help with TF failures?
<awang>
They "know how to deal with it better"
<awang>
And I think that'd be a pretty decent incentive, since no one likes being Agathorn'd
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yep, also repairs
<soundnfury>
awang: but then we really need to configure some TF failures other than "engine died"
<soundnfury>
because that one generally happens during launch, when there isn't really time to repair anything
<NathanKell|WORK>
I've been thinking about taking a chainsaw to testflight, too
<awang>
soundnfury: That's true
<awang>
Hasn't that always been planned for TF, though?
<awang>
Maybe a "public relations" bonus?
<Maxsimal>
It's not entirely unrealistic - and it could more often be a matter of 'they know how to not make it break' in the first place.
<awang>
Like videos we see from the ISS
<awang>
Or training for specific tasks on EVA
<awang>
Although idk if that counts as a negative penalty
<NathanKell|WORK>
back later, o/
<awang>
NathanKell|WORK: What are you thinking about TF?
<Maxsimal>
Another option is 'maximum mission duration' - how long the astronaut can keep going before penalties start accruing
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<awang>
Wait, NathanKell works at Valve?
<soundnfury>
awang: yeah, he got snaffled almost as soon as he left squard
<awang>
egg|nomz|egg: You should make something like that the chat topic
<awang>
Or whatever the header thing with quotes is
<awang>
And see how long it takes for him to notice
<lamont>
i’m pretty sure we’ve been waiting for long enough now that its a POSIX standard troll in libc
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<Bornholio>
max what is the Fixed sounding altitude errors?
<Bornholio>
just did 10 more sounding rocket contracts, I may never do another in my life.
<Maxsimal>
Are you in the dev branch?
<Bornholio>
yes
<Maxsimal>
There's supposed to be a sounding rocket(altitude) contract, that was erroring. It asks you to set a new record altitude with a sounding rocket.
<Bornholio>
ah, that would been nice to have. On a side note i think the SR repeat delay is annoying.
<Maxsimal>
Ehh, it's more realistic, you shouldn't be able to do sounding rocket contracts every 1-2 days, if you feel like it. I actually feel like it maybe is too short.
<awang>
How do you guys handle time warps during an RP-0 career?
<Bornholio>
the us did, and over a 1000 aerobees were launched
<awang>
Any kind of limit as to how fast/slow/etc.?
<Bornholio>
thats just aerobees
<Bornholio>
not that i want to do that, but since i can't wait in mission control i'm in and out of it loading and unloading to get my next missions since thats the only missions available
<Bornholio>
Also not sure when i'd ever do anything less than difficult
<Maxsimal>
They launched up to 70 per year - one every 5 days - at the maximum. They didn't launch 1000 aerobees all in one ear.
<Bornholio>
and a hundred other classes of sounding rockets
<lamont>
awang: just warp to the next thing you need to do
<Maxsimal>
Find me someplace where it says they launched 1000 sounding rockets in one year.
<Maxsimal>
And yeah, a popup when a mission comes off cooldown might be good, can't exactly add that myself though.
<Bornholio>
i didnt and don't care, I'm saying for game play purpose is servese no benifit to delay it other than frustration
<lamont>
if you don’t want to grind at sounding rockets, warp to science or landing pad upgrade or whatever in the KCT window. mostly warping is going to be in the KCT window to the next event, or its going to be on-orbit, or its going to be KAC to some interplanetary window/arrival/whatever
<Bornholio>
saying this because after 30+ sounding rockets across the last four days they are not fun. and i'm testing, not warping
<soundnfury>
Hmm. If I have a dictionary, and I repeatedly set a given key (every Update()), is that going to produce garbage?
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: get CapCom, then you can warp while watching contracts :)
<soundnfury>
(it's a Dict<string, double>, if that affects the answer. And the strings already exist, I'm just referencing them)
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<Bornholio>
there should not be a time period in the game where theer are zero available missions, I am not being derogatory about this. making me feel like i'm a jerk for testing
<awang>
soundnfury: If C# dictionaries work how I think they do, as long as it's not multithreaded you should be fine
<awang>
Setting a key just changes the value
<awang>
I think
<awang>
Or at least that's how pretty much every other dictionary I'm aware of works
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<Maxsimal>
Well, that '1000 sounding rockets launched' thing was a bit off putting, tbh. That didn't help make your case. And there needs to be a way to prevent people from going through contracts too quickly, or grinding the same contract over and over, that's highly unrealistic. We may need more contract variety, but I'm also really confused how you managed to be doing a sounding contract launch AND x-planes launch every 4 days early in your career
<Maxsimal>
And if it's already late in your career, the sounding rocket difficulty should have grown, and you should have other contracts to be chasing.
<Maxsimal>
And if you're rush-building a lot to do that - well, that's one of the exploits we're trying to patch anyway.
<SRBuchanan>
Yeah, I am confused about the launch rate as well. With the recommended KCT settings for RP-0 your early sounding rockets should take a week or two to build, and manned aircraft of any stripe will take months.
<SRBuchanan>
Rush-building should have diminishing returns.
<Bornholio>
ok done testing
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<SRBuchanan>
Someone's sore.
<Maxsimal>
Yeah wtf was that about?
<SRBuchanan>
Eh, he may have been mad already for some other unrelated reason.
<SRBuchanan>
I gotta say, when I am angry about something RP-0 is the *last* thing I need to be playing. RO Sandbox I can handle.
<blowfish>
hmm, the XLR11 doesn't really have enough T/W to be used for rockets does it?
<Maxsimal>
Yeah I dunno. If he has been testing the last 4 days, I would have loved to see his data, but these comments are the first I heard about it from him, and the way they were phrased just made me somewhat defensive.
<SRBuchanan>
On the subject of diminishing returns, though, I think it should be set up so that it is not under any circumstances possible to build a spacecraft in less than half of its base construction time.
<awang>
How many things would I break by symlinking the RO/RP-0 repos to my GameData?
<blowfish>
awang: I do that all the time
<awang>
Well, symlinking the GameData directories inside the repos
<awang>
blowfish: Oh good
<Maxsimal>
Yeah I agree, made that same comment to NK. I'm not sure if he's done it yet, but he was going to make there be a TF penalty for rush building.
<awang>
Was hoping that there wasn't something that needed to be built
<blowfish>
I think RO and RP-0 both have the DLLs stored in the repo
<SRBuchanan>
Well, you could make the percentage a percentage of the remaining build time rather than the total.
<Maxsimal>
It is a percentage of the remaining build time already.
<SRBuchanan>
Huh.
<SRBuchanan>
Hmm.
<Maxsimal>
Yeah - it takes 10% off the remaining build time each time
<Maxsimal>
You can't rush build 10 times and get it done instantly - the remaining time will be .9^(times you rush)
<awang>
Ah
<SRBuchanan>
See, a year ago when I was fresh out of my last semester of calculus I could have come up with a formula such that the maximum build time reduction was 50% without requiring an explicit cap, but right now I am drawing a blank.
<Maxsimal>
It's not that creating a formula is the hard part - it's that KCT is not NK's mod, so he has to get magico to make additions to it, or he'd have to see if magico was ok with him changing it, or splitting off a new version
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<SRBuchanan>
Basically we need a function f(x) such that f(0) is 1 and lim f(x) as x approaches infinity is 0.5
<SRBuchanan>
Oi.
<Maxsimal>
1(1+1/X)
<SRBuchanan>
That's the one.
<SRBuchanan>
Feels odd to see it without some kind of devilish symbol in front of it though.
<Maxsimal>
Err no, sorry, it would be 1(2- 1/x)
<SRBuchanan>
Eh.
<SRBuchanan>
Wait no... both of those are discontinuous at x = 0.
<SRBuchanan>
The issue is a curve with a finite value f(x) at x = 0
<Maxsimal>
1(2- 1(x+1)) then
<Maxsimal>
1/(2-1/(x+1) ) Sorry, it's late my time :P
<SRBuchanan>
I was gonna say, that first one was linear.
<Maxsimal>
yeah that's true. You could adjust the curve, if you wanted that sort of asymptotic approach, by having a tuning constant c such that it's 1/(2-1/(cx+1))
<SRBuchanan>
That is more or less exactly what I meant. Nicely done.
<Maxsimal>
But a similar way might be to keep the current formula and just cut off the # of rush builds you're allowed to do, or have each rush building cost X times more than the one before it, such that the cost of rush building grows prohibitive more quickly.
<SRBuchanan>
I guess I need to crack those math books open more often. The only stuff I have retained is what I use for my orbital calculations.
<SRBuchanan>
All the delta-V maps are inexact and rarely account for a non-zero starting inclination, so I plot out my geostationary transfers by hand. Then Principia throws a bit of a wrench in my plans...
<SRBuchanan>
Who knew rocket science could be hard?
<Maxsimal>
!tell NathanKell: One thing that's not on Pap's todo list is the TF nerf to rush building, or something similar. Not sure if you want that for the next release or not.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Maxsimal>
Anyway, I'm off, goodnight guys
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<SRBuchanan>
Alright, I worked it out. The formula f(x) = 1/(2-1/(0.125x +1)), where f(x) is the total buildtime proportional to the base buildtime and x is the number of rushes purchased, yields pretty solid performance. One rush gets you 0.9, the second 8.3, the third 0.79, and the fourth 0.75.
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<SRBuchanan>
It takes eight rushes to get two-thirds of the buildtime and sixteen to get to 0.6. Even a hundred rushes only gets you to 0.52
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<SRBuchanan>
Actually that sounds kind of extreme. I want it to approach that limit of 0.5 but I want it not to shallow out so abruptly. I will play around with the numbers some more; it should be easier now that I have the basic formula to work with.
<SRBuchanan>
Something logarithmic would probably make more sense.
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<SRBuchanan>
Nah, those are unbounded. So are exponentials.
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<SRBuchanan>
I think I will take a food break and chew on the problem a bit more.
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<xShadowx>
lol documentry on a prison.......the human race sure finds ways to make pointy things
<xShadowx>
showed off an entire wall of different kinds of pointy
NathanKell|AWAY is now known as NathanKell
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 2 new commits to Developmental: https://git.io/v7PFq
<github>
RP-0/Developmental a77089b Paul Boyle: Sounding Rocket fixes...
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 1c5cb31 NathanKell: Merge pull request #744 from ppboyle/Developmental...
* xShadowx
just realized this was entirely the wrong channel
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<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7PFS
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 7199f4a NathanKell: Decrease starting KCT upgrades to 2.
<soundnfury>
!tell SRBuchanan that f(x) simplifies to (x+8)/(2x+8), if that helps
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: On your dict question. I believe it’s GC-free, yeah.
<awang>
Holy cow
<awang>
What did you do to the tech tree
<awang>
Also, KCT doesn't seem to be picking up the RP-0 config
<awang>
Interesting
<awang>
Oh wait
<awang>
Never mind
<awang>
Also, is EMR Controller recommended?
<blowfish>
dictionaries will occasionally generate GC when they decide they need to adjust the size of their hash table
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<awang>
One of the new splash screens clashes pretty badly with the loading tips