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<Gus> So, now I have KRASH installed and I've never been happier.
<Gus> Also, I've been working on some Procedural Parts textures, specifically for some of the indian and russian launchers.
<Gus> Our current white & red texture looks awful in my opinion, but the color is excellent, so I made a few textures based on it, and I'm working on some good tankbutt textures for guys like NathanKell|WORK , don't think I haven't seen your youtube series, haha.
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<Bornholio> .booHiss Tankbutts go die
<awang> How much is the X-1 cockpit supposed to cost?
<Bornholio> 300 funds
<awang> ....
<awang> 2598.20 on my install
<awang> The entry cost was right
<awang> Don't know why the per-unit cost is so off though
<Bornholio> rollout cost will be 3 times as much as base cost or more
<Bornholio> sure you don't have a untooled tank hiding inside it
<awang> Pretty sure? That's the cost given when the cursor hovers over the part
<Bornholio> both taerobee and realism overhaul version?
<awang> Yep
<awang> They have 100L for tanks, but that appears to be built-in
<Bornholio> post a modulemanager.cache
<awang> It's 27.1 MB
<awang> Just FYI
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> The cost in the MM cache is right
<awang> So there's something else there that's ading to the cost
<Gus> Bornholio: The tankbutt texture thing was more more or less a joke - if you ever look at NathanKell's rockets he puts tankbutts on them and colors them a default cryo orange.
<awang> Crap, brb
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<Gus> So I was working on a texture based on the bottom of the Saturn V's third stage.
<Gus> based on that
<Bornholio> gus I know, its when they are part of a motor that they are a pain in the butt :P
<Gus> well yeah, nothing more annoying than an RL-10 that includes a 4 meter tankbutt
<Bornholio> make using the engine harder and if they act as a shroud they tend to disapear when you return to a ship
<Gus> yeah, KSP shroud mechanics are obnoxious as all hell
<Gus> question for any knowledgable party - is the RP-0 Mk1 command pod's heatshield rated for LEO reentry?
<leudaimon> yep Gus
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<NathanKell|WORK> !tell awang* give us a list of the things in the right-click module/resource list in the part tooltip for the X-1 cockpit.
<Qboid> NathanKell|WORK: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell|WORK> Gus: Awesome! Note that the red/white texture is, IIRC, for the Japanese Mu launchers
<NathanKell|WORK> and yes I'd love other tankbutt options
<NathanKell|WORK> cheers til home!
<NathanKell|WORK> o/
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<NathanKell> o/
<lamont> o/
<lamont> so i think i’m more or less this one stupid inverse rotation bug away from having working space-shuttle PEG
<Bornholio> excellent
<NathanKell> \o/
<Bornholio> left hand rule?
<lamont> i am still entirely unclear what vector is hopping around though
<lamont> no…
<ferram4> Check your quaternion definitions
<lamont> no its the KSP inverse rotation
<lamont> its a wiggle at exactly 145 km of altitude as i pass through the mainBody.inverseRotationThreshold of the Earth
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<ferram4> Probably the change in velocity at that point then.
<lamont> and by wiggle, i mean if i tell it to go to 90 inc then it burns north at about 2 degrees east (not west) and i’m like “did you forget about coriolis?” and it flies on until it hits 145km and it goes “oh shit! coriolis!” and burns at -20 degrees
<NathanKell> that’s...weird
<lamont> yep
<lamont> i applied your fix to get v, but that doesn’t fix it, and that seems to match vessel.obt_velocity near enough to exactly
<Gus> I'm getting a really weird thing during reentry of my mk 1 pod in early RP-0
<Gus> it burns up at low-ish speeds and low-ish altitudes.
<Gus> Like, it survives reentry until about 35km and about 1500m/s, then it explodes
<NathanKell> Hit alt-f12, go to physics, thermo. What is convection factor?
<Gus> 1.720
<ferram4> lamont, are you manually accounting for the coriolis force and whatnot below the rotation threshold?
<lamont> no
<NathanKell> ohhh
<NathanKell> Gus: Update RO.
<Bornholio> lol from release to master is a long haul :P
<Gus> Through CKAN or?
<Gus> I'm pretty sure CKAN says I'm running the most recent version
<NathanKell> Gus: uh...
<lamont> i pull off the ECI velocity which has the 400m/s coriolis velocity baked into it already, its just another starting orbit as far as the algorithm is concerned
<ferram4> Does the algorithm assume it's working in an inertial frame, or a rotating frame?
<NathanKell> Gus: Well *(%@*(#
<NathanKell> We never released the fix
<NathanKell> open RO/RO_Physics.cfg and change the 1.7whatever to 1.05
<NathanKell> Gus: Or just come over to dev! :D
<lamont> inertial frame
<Gus> "installed version v11.5.1"
<Gus> but yeah, I'll just do that change manually.
<NathanKell> Gus: Yep, my bad, we never released the fix
<SpecimenSpiff> o/
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<ferram4> lamont, then that explains it. It's not accounting for fictious forces at all. The coriolis force and reduction in gravity due to centrifugal force need to be accounted for. That should fix it.
<SpecimenSpiff> Is anyone else reporting/having vapor issues with the wac? I spent like 2 hours last night trying various staging orders and booster options, and could not get a 2nd stage wac to light and stay lit
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<Gus> because yeah, I had some really goofy explosions - poor Faina keeps dying on the soviet union's first orbital mission despite never pulling more than 5 G's and her pod explodes at about 35km at less than mach 5.
<ferram4> Check what FlightIntegrator does for applying gravity, coriolis and centrifugal force should be applied in the same place and add that to your sim.
<lamont> no this one is designed for ECI and not a comoving frame with forces in it. the ship isn’t at the origin like the surveyor PEG design.
<lamont> its also a sharp discontinuity at exactly 145km
<Gus> Unrelated, but I love the NK-9V more than I probably should. Excellent upper stage engine.
<NathanKell> Gus: Yep, it’s a solid performer :)
<leudaimon> SpecimenSpiff, what are you using as booster? single Tiny Tim?
<NathanKell> Gus: As for heat, the issue there is you’re going too shallow and/or trying to do a lifting reentry. Steep ballistic ones are fine even with 1.7x mult
<NathanKell> Gus: There’s a reason Mercury came in so steep: much lower heat load.
<SpecimenSpiff> I was able to make that work. ANything more than that, and it either never lights or lights and then immediately dies from vapor
<SpecimenSpiff> right now Im trying bumper-wac
<SpecimenSpiff> I had a wac-tim-3tim design that worked fine last career, I brought over the save file into the new one, and failure after failure
<lamont> i’m pretty sure this is due to the inverseRotation which (from what i understand) is a hack designed to keep velocities on the surface of the planet near to zero for the Unity physics engine
<NathanKell> SpecimenSpiff: Recall the square-cube law. Drag will affect a small vehicle *much* more than a large one.
<NathanKell> SpecimenSpiff: That means that tiny sounding rockets have to worry much more about drag
<leudaimon> ^
<NathanKell> (and in particular, drag overpowering thrust as the engine ramps up, and even once it has)
<Gus> what would mercury's perigee be during a "steep ballistic" reentry
<Gus> -250?
<NathanKell> 300x-250, yeah
<NathanKell> and ballistic reentry
<NathanKell> maybe even 150x-200
<leudaimon> SpecimenSpiff, as NathanKell suggested to me, after the 3tim burn, wait for your speed to reach about 200m/s before firing the other one
<SpecimenSpiff> maybe that's the problem, I think this one is wider than last career when it was easy
<NathanKell> I had to wait for 100m/s leudaimon
<NathanKell> 200m/s, and it failed every time
<NathanKell> SpecimenSpiff: Yep that would do it
<NathanKell> I suffered horribly with a 15in Aerobee vs a 12in WAC
<SpecimenSpiff> I tried that leudaimon, that would let me start it, but then it immediately dies again
<leudaimon> yeah, I'm using a 0.3m tank, mayme that's it
<SpecimenSpiff> ill try a narrower wac
<NathanKell> SpecimenSpiff: Narrower, and wait to 100m/s before lighting the next tim
<leudaimon> s/mayme/maybe
<Qboid> leudaimon meant to say: yeah, I'm using a 0.3m tank, maybe that's it
<leudaimon> now for the actual aerobee engine I may go directly to .5m to send a bioSample in the nosecone
<Gus> One thing KCT has really taught me on this most recent campaign is that you really shouldn't include things that will give you no value - the cost isn't the issue, it's the build time.
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<SpecimenSpiff> yeah, ive been paying attention to whether I expect to use a particular experiment, and especially the chutes, those really add to the time
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<lamont> ahhhhhh, its my cheating using the kerbal Orbit class to do conic state extrapolation
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<SpecimenSpiff> Now for the really hard part; I have the "Flea" which is a bare wac. Then the "Hyper Flea" which is wac+tim, and the "Ultra Hyper Flea" which is wac+tim+tim3x. But what do I call flea+a4?
<Gus> NathanKell: it worked this time, either because I changed the heating or because I came in much steeper and without descent mode
<Gus> either way, my poor cosmonauts are gonna be enjoying twice the Gs from now on, lol
<NathanKell> heh
<soundnfury> SpecimenSpiff: Oliphlea.
<soundnfury> (the warhead of the A4 was referred to as "der Oliphant" — the elephant)
<ferram4> There. I'm not the one holding up RO for v1.3.
<ferram4> \o/
<lamont> NathanKell okay it smells like below the inverseRotationThreshold that the Orbit class needs to not only be swizzled, but converted to/from “inverse rotation space”
<gazpachian> ferram4: WOO
<NathanKell> lamont: Odd, orbit should do that itself
<NathanKell> guess it depends what you want out of it, and what you’re using it for
<SpecimenSpiff> soundnfury I like it
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<NathanKell> awang: o/
<NathanKell> get my tell?
<NathanKell> lamont: dang, and Bill’s in the air atm
<NathanKell> or anyways offline
<lamont> so the top one fails below the inverse rotation threshold. the 12th grade calculus implementation below that works like a champ the whole way.
<NathanKell> But what v0 are you feeding in?
<NathanKell> is that corrected?
<NathanKell> if you want to see how things are done, decompile TrackRigidBody in OrbitDriver
<Gus> I noticed that the Geiger Counter experiment returns only about 60% of the data if you transmit - shouldn't a geiger counter reading just be a number, and therefore have no loss from transmit?
<NathanKell> Gus: Are you on dev?
<NathanKell> Wait, you can’t be
<Gus> of course not lol
<NathanKell> if you had that issue with heating
<Gus> Yeah, I'm on 11.5.1
<NathanKell> then sorry, irrelevant :]
<NathanKell> cooooome tooooo deeeeeev
<Gus> only if you tell me how QQ
<NathanKell> super easy
<lamont> PEG uses a coasting trajectory that approximates the powered trajectory in order to get an approximation of gravity effects, its better than the linear gravity model of SV IGM
<soundnfury> Gus: come to dev, we have cookies^Wdestabilising changes that require you to learn how to career-mode all over again
<NathanKell> ^^^ that
<NathanKell> but it’s fuuuun
<NathanKell> oh, Pap-DrivingHomeStill I don’t suppose you pushed the biome changes for the moon?
<lamont> thre’s a formula that picks out the r0 and v0 that approximates that curve to leading order
<soundnfury> NathanKell: of course it's fun
<soundnfury> that doesn't mean it can't also be crazy
<Pap-DrivingHomeStill> I have not NathanKell, I want to make sure it is correct and it was too early for bug checking this morning.
<Gus> wait, what did you guys change?
<Gus> It seems pretty well put together in the current branch
<leudaimon> Gus, you should ask what was not changed instead
<soundnfury> Gus: cost functions. tooling for procedural parts. astronauts now have to be trained for their missions. facilities maintenance costs.
<awang> Should plane rollout costs be in the thousands?
<Qboid> awang: NathanKell|WORK left a message for you in #RO [22.08.2017 00:55:42]: "give us a list of the things in the right-click module/resource list in the part tooltip for the X-1 cockpit."
<soundnfury> what else did I forget?
<leudaimon> tech tree?
<soundnfury> leudaimon: that's on master.
<NathanKell> Gus: read link
<NathanKell> then read link in link
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<leudaimon> but he is on release
<lamont|sweating> well, imma go exercise on it and see what i can think up…
<NathanKell> about to not be, leudaimon
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<leudaimon> yeah, another crazy one in the dev
<NathanKell> :)
<NathanKell> also, that reminds me. Is anyone up to Apollo era in career?
<NathanKell> how’s facility maintenance costs then?
<awang> NathanKell: Command, KOSProcessor, Kr Eject Pilot, Life Support Module, Mech Jeb Core, Modular Fuel Tank, SAS, SAS, Science Experiment (crew report), Science Experiment (analyze telemetry), Show Info (Part name: X1.Crew), Tag Habitable, Tag Human Rated, TCA (Unavailable), Carbon Dioxide, Electric Charge, Food, Oxygen, Waste, Waste Water, Water
<NathanKell> Pap-DrivingHomeStill: Np
<NathanKell> awang: Uninstall kOS.
<NathanKell> that might be it
<awang> NathanKell: Will try
<SpecimenSpiff> Question for the assembled minds, to see if my understanding of gravity is correct: If I have a booster/payload with decoupler, and I burn out the booster going straight up, out of atmosphere.. if I drop the booster immediately, gravity is now acting on less mass, and I should go higher, than if I kept coasting up with the booster, yes?
<blowfish> nope, force of gravity is proportional to mass
<soundnfury> _however_, see 'boosted dart'
<blowfish> so gravity will accelerate payload + booster at the same rate as payload
<soundnfury> (dropping a _draggy_ booster can help)
<blowfish> well yes, if you're still in atmo then it might be different
<awang> Or keeping a booster can increase your ballistic coeffcient
<SpecimenSpiff> Im glad I asked. But I learned a while back that not everything that seems obvious common sense, is...
<blowfish> yeah, that can go either way
<UmbralRaptor> Unit-wise, m/s² is the same as N/kg, if that helps.
<soundnfury> but in vacuo blowfish is correct, something something geodesics
<awang> It's not like it's rocket sci-
<awang> waait...
<blowfish> SpecimenSpiff: another way to think of it: if you decoupled with zero force the booster would stay with you for the entire trajectory, at least until you re-enter
<soundnfury> awang: it's not, it's just boring old Newtonian kinematics
<awang> soundnfury: shhhhh
<soundnfury> well, and the perplexing equivalence between inertial and gravitational mass, which makes sense in General Relativity but does _not_ make sense in particle physics
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<SpecimenSpiff> ok, so another one, that I learned from, I think, 2010. I know that the Oberth effect means that you should boost at periapsis when doing a manuever. But in 2010 it was explained differnetly, and possibly also correctly: you let the gravity drag you down while you're heavy with fuel, but then you burn the fuel at bottom, both gaining the dV, and also getting rid of the mass so that it's not pulling you back on the way back o
<soundnfury> SpecimenSpiff: that's just a question of how you look at the energy balance
<Gus> Honestly I see RP-0 as being the holistic game-y version of BASPM
<awang> BASPM?
<SpecimenSpiff> and it was explained elsewhere, possibly a Niven short, that if you have a low exhaust velocity, the exhaust cloud is still around you, and "you" in terms of gravity still basically encompasses the whole mass. But if you have a high enough exhaust velocity, it's gone and no longer counts
<Gus> Unrelated, but one change I think might be hard to implement but would be excellent from a realism perspective would be to implement a way to decrease costs on subsequent launches of the same launcher, to discourage bespoke launchers for every application
<Gus> awang: Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager
<Gus> If you've never played it, go buy it from steam. It's legit af.
<soundnfury> another version of the same thing is to say that when you burn fuel you get back some of its kinetic energy as well as its chemical energy
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<awang> Gus: Doesn't KCT already have that mechanic?
<Gus> Soviet career is really fun because they execute you if you go bankrupt.
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<awang> And it's not like I need another rocket game :(
<awang> I have classes
<Gus> awang: it has a reliability thing, if that's what you mean
<awang> Well, had classes at this rate
<awang> Pretty sure it has a cost thing too?
<soundnfury> Gus: reliability is TestFlight
<awang> I literally used it like 10 minutes ago
<soundnfury> KCT has/had a declining-cost-for-parts mechanic
<SpecimenSpiff> and that basically goes to the zero-force decoupler example: sure I'm detached, but still have attraction between the two parts, so earth pulls on the booster, which in turn pulls on me, zeroing any potential gains
<Gus> where is that
<Gus> I don't think I have that working...
<SpecimenSpiff> but if I stage energetically, then the attraction between the two parts quickly goes to next to nil
<awang> You need to have ScrapYard installed
<soundnfury> and on RP-0 dev, we now have the tooling mechanic too, which also discourages bespoke launchers
<soundnfury> SpecimenSpiff: attraction between you and the booster is irrelevant
<awang> Used to be built into KCT IIRC
<soundnfury> both are << earth mass
<soundnfury> if you stage energetically, then eventually the gravity gradient stabilises you further
<soundnfury> s/stabilises/separates
<Qboid> soundnfury meant to say: if you stage energetically, then eventually the gravity gradient separates you further
<awang> Who is in charge of the RP-0 forum post?
<awang> Now that I think about it, we may want to add ScrapYard as a required mod
<NathanKell|Twitch> yeah since KCT requires it for inventory to matter
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<awang> NathanKell|Twitch: kOS wasn't it :(
<leudaimon> Pap-DrivingHomeStill, biosample is now totally transmittable?
* darsie keeps burning up, but goes sleeping for tonight.
<leudaimon> and is it my impression or are fuel tanks burning up much easier now?
<SpecimenSpiff> does bio sample no longer punish you for transmitting?
<leudaimon> I think it's a bug SpecimenSpiff, but I also noticed that
<Pap-DrivingHomeStill> I will check tomorrow. It should not be fully transmitted
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<Rokker> Pap-Sleep: waiy
<Rokker> wait
<Rokker> Pap-Sleep: wasn't that the most amazing experience ever
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<Pap-Sleep> Rokker: it is indescribable. I was trying to explain it to my wife and was failing to do so.
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<Rokker> Pap-Sleep: absolutely, i went with strato and his wife and friend, they stopped by on the way down from vancouver
<Rokker> and im trying to explain it to my parents
<Rokker> Pap-Sleep: did dew start to form on the ground for you
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<Gus> I think at some point early in september I'll have the free time required to make a new RP-0 save, and I'll be sure to use the dev stuff.
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<Gus> But I _will_ be coming back to ask everyone to hold my hand while I install it, because I lack all the tech savvy to actually make that work on my own :P
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<awang> NathanKell|Twitch: It's either EVA parachutes or Throttle Controlled Avionics that are causing the price jump
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<NathanKell> awang: ok, so try with one and not the other to narrow down?
<NathanKell> good hunting! :)
<NathanKell> good work hunting it down I mean, but also good luck :)
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<awang> NathanKell: Working on it!
<awang> KSP takes like half an hour to start, so figured I'd give an update
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<Rokker> NathanKell: MOTHERFUCKING DEW ON THE MOTHERFUCKING LEAVES
<Rokker> NathanKell: did you travel to totality?
<NathanKell> ...?
<NathanKell> No
<NathanKell> Sadly not
<awang> How was the 140km space border for Earth in RSS chosen?
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<ferram4> IIRC, 1 Pa of dynamic pressure during some kind of reentry?
<ferram4> Not from the Moon. From interplanetary. Not sure how fast though.
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<leudaimon> that I would call an esoteric definition
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<ferram4> We had to pull it from somewhere.
<ferram4> It needed to be below ~200 km so that most not-stupid parking orbits could be timewarped through
<ferram4> It needed to be above 100km because there's still too much atmosphere.
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<awang> Makes sense
<leudaimon> yeah... 140 makes sense with regard to parking orbits
<leudaimon> I remember it was changed from 130 at some point
<awang> Just saw a definition on Wikipedia that said that ~150km was the minimum altitude for a vessel to complete at least one circular orbit without propulsion
<awang> Made me wonder how the RSS threshold was chosen
<awang> I remember it being 130km, too
<awang> Always wondered why it changed
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<wb99999999> Later Apollo parked at 150km
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<wb99999999> more or less as low as you can go
<wb99999999> any lower you'll deorbit in a few days
<wb99999999> not that mattered for Apollo
<NathanKell|AFK> 140km so the transition from last-calculated-pressure to 0 pressure was smooth (not terribly disjoint from 138 to 139km, and 139km to 140km)
<NathanKell|AFK> o/ nomz
<wb99999999> make sense
<wb99999999> btw I just noticed a whole bunch of NTR configs... What is it
<leudaimon> !tell NathanKell*, Pap* I noticed a strange behavior of TF in the XASR-1. My first launch with it showed the "correct" du pouints, with 50%transfered from the WAC. This launch had a failure, and the following one does not have the transfered dus, just about 1.5k from the previous flight
<Qboid> leudaimon: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<NathanKell> o/
<Qboid> NathanKell: leudaimon left a message for you in #RO [22.08.2017 04:40:05]: "Pap* I noticed a strange behavior of TF in the XASR-1. My first launch with it showed the "correct" du pouints, with 50%transfered from the WAC. This launch had a failure, and the following one does not have the transfered dus, just about 1.5k from the previous flight"
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<NathanKell|AWAY> !tell Pap* ***loving*** the new science! You did *awesome*! <3
<Qboid> NathanKell|AWAY: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<darsie> I keep exploding, with bigger heat shield on shallow and steep reentries from LEO: http://www.bksys.at/bernhard/temp/screenshot12.png
<darsie> using an early controllable core which is more heat resistant than the procedural core.
<darsie> Hmm, maybe I tried too fast and too slow.
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<darsie> wb Bornholio
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<Pap> o/
<Qboid> Pap: egg|cell|egg left a message for you in #RO [21.08.2017 08:43:04]: "that actually seems like a significant issue to move forward with that RSS release"
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell|AWAY left a message for you in #RO [22.08.2017 07:36:06]: "***loving*** the new science! You did *awesome*! <3"
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<awang> NathanKell|AWAY: Looks like EVA parachutes are causing the X-1 cockpit price jump
<awang> !tell NathanKell* Looks like EVA parachutes are causing the X-1 cockpit price jump
<Qboid> awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap> Ahhh, good find awang
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> I'm still getting a scarily high rollout cost
<awang> ~11000 funds
<awang> Not nearly as bad as it was earlier, though
<Pap> awang: Are you tooling tanks?
<awang> I don't have any proc tanks
<awang> Er, I'm not using any proc tanks
<awang> Just the cockpit on its own has a rollout cost of ~7000 funds
<awang> Cost on its own is only 300 funds
<Pap> Actually, I think this is a known issue, but I might be wrong. I think the issue is that there are multipliers added to each part instead of once to the whole thing. I think NK planned on fixing that, but you will have to ask him
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> And the conic cockpit has a rollout cost of ~3500
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<awang> ...And the rollout cost of literally nothing is ~2800 funds
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<Bornholio> lol darsie, stupid ISP, fix the damn connection, rain should not make me drop...
<Bornholio> awang launch from a new 20t pad
<Bornholio> or whatever is smallest, make multiple pads one each of each pad limit, so you can keep launch costs lower.
<awang_> Bornholio: The rollout costs were for a plane, though
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<Bornholio> never had high rollout costs for a plane
<awang> idk
<awang> My install is pretty broken
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<darsie> Now I reentered from 666 km to 90 km and still blew up when my ablator was mostly charred: http://www.bksys.at/bernhard/temp/screenshot18.png
<darsie> Is 666 km Ap too high?
<Bornholio> mercury/mk1 pod?
<Bornholio> duh pic
<Bornholio> aim lower, put a tank inbetween ECC and shield an cone it in a bit
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<Bornholio> tuck the antenna down lower in center and give it a hotkey to activate. if you can make the whole assembly conic but slightly smaller than the shield outer diameter. What is the middle tank?
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<darsie> a parachute
<darsie> I don't mind losing the tank or the antenna atm.
<darsie> Looks like the heat shield explodes once the ablator is gone.
<darsie> I thought maybe the charred ablator will be ablated next.
<darsie> A tank will explode sooner than the ECC.
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<darsie> I tried 0, 30 and 90 km. Now I'll try 150 km Ap ...
<darsie> 0, 30, 60 and 90*
<Bornholio> use a small surface chute, the Aerobee is expensive and probably way heavy for what you need. if you dont need the tank, jettison it as you re-enter, lower weight is higher drag ratio
<Bornholio> excalibur has been drawn https://i.imgur.com/GgiHjvL.jpg
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> \o
<Hypergolic_Skunk> any ANNO players here? then I have good news for you :p
<a_schack> I used to play the first 3 installments, and I saw the news about Anno 1800... could be interesting
<Hypergolic_Skunk> indeed! especially because 2205 was such a disappointment for me
<Bornholio_> anno was fun before that newest one
<Maxsimal> awang: My guess is the runway is using the tuning for the maxed out launchpad, which it probably shouldn't.
<Pap> Did you all see the news about Age of Empires 4?
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap: nope!
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<darsie> Bornholio: The aerobee chute is the lightest I have and only 5 m diameter, IIRC.
<Bornholio> no realchutes?
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<Pap> How was the first 2 days of the job Hypergolic_Skunk? Typical orientation stuff?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap: yeah. my head is burning and smoking, even though I'm sober. lot of stuff to take in.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> now if only I found a place to stay in Amsterdam itself... hate the commute
<Pap> Ah
<UmbralRaptor> I think you're supposed to bike everywhere?
* UmbralRaptor isn't sure how that works when it's 40 C, -20 C, or raining.
<darsie> A heat shield and a tank with 60 kg hydrazine came down in Africa. Yay :)
<Bornholio> yeah darsie
<Bornholio> hopefully with a ECC attached for science returns?
<darsie> no. No chute, either. Just that :).
<Bornholio> doh
<darsie> But it's progress :).
<darsie> And I'm back to the procedural core, cause the big shield is heavy.
<darsie> But I'm thinking of switching to the small shield again.
<Rokker> well
<darsie> ksp won't load my game ...
<Rokker> they think they found the body of the missing journalist in the Peter Madsen thing
<darsie> there we go ...
<Hypergolic_Skunk> UmbralRaptor: we had a whopping two weeks of summer. the rest is chilly rain all the way :/ but yes, many people here are very tough ..
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: I'm lucky enough to have ended my summer with a trip to tennessee and an eclipse
<UmbralRaptor> Current outdoor temp here is 32 C.
<UmbralRaptor> *33, with 56%humidity
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Rokker and UmbralRaptor - screw you guys.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> in NL, humidity is always 100%
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: we have a hot humid rain atm
<Hypergolic_Skunk> so imagine the fun when the temp goes above 30 C
<Rokker> and humidity was like 55 in tennesse
<UmbralRaptor> That's what air conditioned cars are for.
<Rokker> UmbralRaptor: and air conditioned buildings
<Rokker> and air conditioned outsides
<Rokker> #AirConditionYellowstone
<Hypergolic_Skunk> unfortunately, I cheap'ed out when buying a bicycle without AC
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<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: come to dayton in 2024
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: I show u museum, we go see eclipse
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I need some !remindme functionality here
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I'd love to check out museums in the US. and watch rocket launches. ok Rokker, you be my museum-guide, and I show you how to roll a European joint.
<Rokker> ew
<Rokker> euorpeen
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: I might have gotten into drinking but I have no interest in smoking
<Hypergolic_Skunk> no problem, we'll bake a cake
<Rokker> or the devils lettuce in general
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I can so picture you high in a museum... 'duuuuuuuuuuuude.... I never saw it that way...'
<Rokker> no
<Rokker> I've been in that museum for like weeks if my life cumulatively, I've seen it every way
<NathanKell|WORK> Pap: The issue with costs isn't global vs local, I fixed that. The issue is parts that combine, say, a crewed pod with avionics with a heat shield
<Qboid> NathanKell|WORK: awang left a message for you in #RO [22.08.2017 12:59:43]: "Looks like EVA parachutes are causing the X-1 cockpit price jump"
<NathanKell|WORK> awang: Weird. Any way to make the mod not do that?
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<NathanKell|WORK> awang: when looking at rollout costs are you looking at the display *in* the SPH/VAB? That is not at all reliable because it gets the pad/runway level wrong.
<Rokker> NathanKell|WORK: u, join the rest of the ire community in dayton for 2024
<Rokker> irc
<Rokker> Mark ur calendar
<NathanKell|WORK> The ire community---that *does* sound like you, pal :D
<Rokker> NathanKell|WORK: what the fuck is that supposed to mean
<Rokker> how dare u
<Rokker> : P
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<Pap> NathanKell|WORK: I understand, I didn't know if it was the same issue
<Pap> NathanKell|WORK: Thanks for the note about the science :)
<NathanKell|WORK> :)
<Pap> NathanKell|WORK: I think we should move the Scaled RSS Textures to the proper RSS Repository, what do you think?
<Pap> That way, you won't have to rebuild the CKAN required mods listing
<Bornholio> would it be better to just expand the list of textures to one of either set to avoid game braking for people not doing ro/rp0
<Bornholio> breaking
<NathanKell|WORK> Pap: Updating the netkan is actually way simpler IMO
<Pap> Ah, ok then
<Bornholio> if someone wants to use the old set they can slightly change the science rewards
<Pap> Bornholio: It won't work, there are new planets added to RSS
<Pap> Well, moons really
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<Pap> Bornholio: Would you have time to write another one of your really good Wikis today?
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<Bornholio> sure, which one?
<Pap> The yet unreleased Crew Science operates much differently from anything else
<Pap> I won't have time to write a Wiki, but it will be needed for people to understand it, and I want to get it released before people start going into Orbit
<Bornholio> pap can you include a config with the old textures or new configures to seperate them? that way upgrading is simpler.
<Bornholio> sure i'll power through some to make pictures
<Bornholio> any changes while i was DC'd from IRC?
<Pap> No, I haven't pushed it yet (is that what you are asking?)
<Bornholio> yup. k will be couple hours before i can boot and get the pics
<Pap> K, no problem
<Pap> NathanKell|WORK: With the new Crew Science, I am going to need to remove Biome science for In-Space Crew Report.
<NathanKell|WORK> ok
<NathanKell|WORK> So suborbs will give basically no science past the first one?
<NathanKell|WORK> or will there be crew experiments that can be done on them?
<NathanKell|WORK> ( Pap )
<Pap> Suborbs will not give any science (basically) past the first one. There were only 2 in history, correct (asking for real)?
<Pap> NathanKell|WORK:
<darsie> Ohh, no, I successfully landed the sensors with data, but there was no core, so ksp must have thought it was just debris and didn't accept it for the contracts :(.
<Bornholio> well plus X-15, White Knight/SSO
<NathanKell|WORK> Pap: There were a fair few X-15 flights that broke the Karman line or nearly did.
<NathanKell|WORK> Pap: There's also all the modern stuff of course.
<Bornholio> see him dismiss anything newer than '72
<Pap> CANNOT believe NK just referenced modern stuff :)
<Bornholio> yeah but it was just to handwave it :P
<NathanKell|WORK> :D
<NathanKell|WORK> Ok. Welp, that will invalidate my career...
<NathanKell|WORK> :]
<regex> Welcome to burn out
<NathanKell|WORK> Pap: I think the argument here is that most of the impetus for crewed orbital flight was propaganda-related, the science was mostly freefall science and some could have been done suborbital.
<Bornholio> well except the science that relates to extended stays, like how to poop etc. :P
<Pap> NathanKell|WORK: Did you suborbital hop to multiple biomes?
<NathanKell|WORK> the usual 3, yes. Flying low, high, space
<NathanKell|WORK> (in grasslands, shores, water)
<NathanKell|WORK> now grassland->forest
<Bornholio> I did, shores, water, forest, grassland and some desert/mountains on a risky three stage last night
<Pap> So, the science experiments that I added for Basic Capsules is this so far: Liquids in Microgravity, Flight Control Experiments (can be done twice), Visual Tracking (can be done twice), Earth Photogrpahy (can be done four times)
<Pap> None of those can be done in the timeframe of a suborbital flight, could they?
<NathanKell|WORK> Earth photography could, over the limited area. Same with liquids
<NathanKell|WORK> Also flight control experiments, actually--keeping the capsule steady
<Bornholio> can they be done in 5-10 minutes above 140km?
<Pap> The way they are setup now, they take either 1 hour or 2 hours of "CrewTime"
<NathanKell|WORK> Actually...what was the impetus for removing biomes on crew report actually?
<NathanKell|WORK> Trying to keep the science balance uncrewed:crewed as it was?
<Pap> NathanKell|WORK: Yeah, that was the thought, but it doesn't mean it needs to be that way
<NathanKell|WORK> Yeah, that's where I'm going--part of the reason I wanted to add 2nd and 3rd level crew reports was because the balance was whacked :]
<NathanKell|WORK> I mean, IRL you don't get that much science from humans, but you do get more than we model, I think?
<NathanKell|WORK> or modeled*
<Pap> Ahhhh, yes I do think so. The amount of Photography that was done basically "proved" that satellite photography could be a valid option.
<lamont> biome crew reports mean you need to send manned missions over the poles and stuff though
<Pap> lamont: Are you arguing for keeping it that way?
<lamont> kinda?
<NathanKell|WORK> Ah, that's a good point. Without biomes, your orbit doesn't matter
<NathanKell|WORK> and that seems...weird
<lamont> i didn’t really view it as “science” but just for the sake of sending Mark I eyeball there
<Pap> OK, sounds good, we can keep it in (makes my job easier) :)
<NathanKell|WORK> :D
<lamont> for realisms sake it might make more sense to have a contract that unlocked when you visited all the biomes in a planet, instead of sending back science, but i’m not sure how to map that onto contracts, and fit that into game balance
<Bornholio> Mk 1 science, completely unknown before first flights, like cosmic rays can be seen with the naked eye (actually inside the eye/nerves), going polar would allow the study of its higher radiation levels and MKIEB observatons of aurora. Can we do biome specific descriptions easy?
<Bornholio> I really liked the crew report changes so far (comments from crew)
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<Pap> Biome specific descriptions are very easy for current Crew Report stuff, biome specific experiments will not be possible with the new advanced stuff (yet)
<wb99999999> May I just say good afternoon to everyone here XD
<Bornholio> Hi Seven!
<wb99999999> guess this is not going away
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 created Crew-Science (+1 new commit): https://git.io/v5knO
<github> RP-0/Crew-Science 6a3fce3 Pap: Initial Crew Science Upload...
<Bornholio> just as i get ready to load...
<Pap> Bornholio: I created a new branch off of developmental. I don't want to push it to developmental until someone other than me has tested to make sure it works
<Bornholio> WB99999999 I made those NTR's to represent the Rover/SNTP and russian program versions that had realworld development
<Pap> Bornholio: Some notes for you: https://pastebin.com/nGja7HhY
<Bornholio> scales may look strange because they need huge nozzles compared to the normal model
<Bornholio> FAR update... 3:0.15.9
<wb99999999> Hmm, are those NTRs in working order or still being config'd?
<Bornholio> should all be working.
<ferram4> Bornholio, not for KSP 1.2 though. It's for 1.3. CKAN is broken on this right now
<wb99999999> Just your usual CKAN problem XD
<Bornholio> .sigh
<ferram4> There's always something.
<ferram4> On the bright side, this one also causes the game to crash if you install the wrong version, because whatever between 1.2 and 1.3.
<Bornholio> so you have wave of support requests in forums I suppose
<wb99999999> inevitable when FAR is so beloved
<wb99999999> although I always crush my plane on landing when I'm playing it with stock...
<wb99999999> I mean crash
<wb99999999> damn it...
<wb99999999> right, the serious stuff...Bornholio: I tried your NTRs and they don't produce thrust at all...
<wb99999999> I thought they're WIP but apparently they aren't
<Bornholio> K, i'll fire it up and see what changed
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<Bornholio> https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/759 feel free to add any info you figured out wb99999999
<Qboid> [#759] title: Report of New NTR engines producing no thrust. | investigating. | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/759
<Pap> Bornholio: let me know if you have any questions on the Crew Science stuff
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<Gus> o7 everyone
<Gus> I realized I had a bunch of free time this afternoon, and I wanted to get a little help installing the Dev RO stuff
<Gus> you guys made me really excited to try some of that stuff, haha
<Bornholio> wb99999999 yeah the uranium disapearerd so the won't fire only the Pewee 100 works ( the one that matters :P)
<wb99999999> lel
<wb99999999> nailed it
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<Bornholio> and i thought i removed ullage requirement for the RD-0410 but it still needs it. Well fixin' to do.
<wb99999999> RF probably messed your uranium up
<wb99999999> actually in the last update it messed almost every pre-config'd resource up
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<awang> Waaait a second
<awang> KCT doesn't have a rollout cost for the Junkers cockpit
<awang> But does for the X-1
<awang> And the rollout cost for the conic cockpit is much much much lower than that for the X-1
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<awang> !tell Maxsimal Tuning for the maxed out launchpad?
<Qboid> awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<NathanKell|WORK> wb99999999: RF isn't even involved though, unless Bornholio somehow put them in ModuleFuelTanks
<NathanKell|WORK> which I doubt
<awang> NathanKell|WORK: No idea about the EVA parachutes, since I don't know what's adding the cost
<awang> I may be able to look, but no guarantees
<awang> NathanKell|WORK: Yeah, I'm looking at the cost in the SPH/VAB. Didn't know I wasn't supposed to
<awang> What's the proper way of getting rollout costs then?
<blowfish> PSA, don't install FAR via CKAN right now, the KSP version is wrong
<blowfish> probably already been mentioned here, but worth reiterating
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<NathanKell|WORK> awang: in spacecenter, when you see the 'rollout' option, you'll see a cost mentioned
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<NathanKell|WORK> Planes may not even have rollouts, I don't remember
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<Bornholio> alright pap ready to start for crew science anything special (do i need the new branch?) or just fire up each type of basic/normal/advanced pod?
<Pap> Bornholio: Did you see the pastebin above with notes?
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<Bornholio> ah yes, reading now
<Pap> Bornholio: You need WildBlue Tools version 1.19, the new Branch, and only the Basic Capsules are setup currently
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<Bornholio> WIldBLue has Community Resources folder in it is that needed? append/replace?
<Pap> Not needed, we already have that from RO/RP-0
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<wb99999999> I just noticed that the Chinese YF-20 hypergolic engines have very similar performance to the vikings on earlier Ariane rockets...
<Pap> Bornholio: Looking good so far!
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<Bornholio> have some logspam blocks of ( warning: targetbody could not be computer, using homeworld.)
<leudaimon|Work> Pap, I was reading the crew-science additions... do you intend to have a higher generation of crewtime in capsules with more than 1 crew?
<Pap> Oh yes leudaimon|Work there are going to be a bunch of additions, I'll tell you some of them in a short time
<Pap> Bornholio: Ah, that is actually from the Wildblue contract system that I need to disable
<Pap> Thansk
<Pap> *thanks
<leudaimon|Work> also, what is the idea with the different "professions"? are they going to be relevant somehow? scientists generate more crewtime, for example?
<Pap> leudaimon|Work: for the first set of basicCapsules, there is no bonus, but yes, with the advanced ones, they will generate more CrewTime
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<Pap> leudaimon|Work: More advanced experiments requiring 2 crew: Orbital Maneuvering, Simple Organism Egg Growth, Food Evaluation, Synergistic Effect of Zero Gravity and Radiation on White Blood Cells, In-Flight Work Tolerance, Visual Acuity, Simple Navigation, In-flight Sleep Analysis, Start Occultation Navigation, Zodiacal Light Photography, Frog Egg Development, UHF/VHF Polarization, Power Tool Evaluation, Night Image Intensification, Ion
<Pap> Sensing Altitude Control, Synoptic Terrain & Weather Photography, Space Television Broadcast
<egg|zzz|egg> Pap: hmmm?
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<Pap> Then there will be a whole other set that will be available on Space Stations (havne't determined these yet)
<Pap> Sorry egg
<leudaimon|Work> nice pap
<Pap> Right now, the Basic Capsules can carry 2 experiments at a time
<leudaimon|Work> it would be cool if some of those were better with pilots, and others with scientists
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<Pap> 2 crew Capsules will carry 3 experiments and 3 crew will carry 4 experiments
<leudaimon|Work> the types of experiments are very fitting for that
<Pap> leudaimon|Work: that would be great, just cannot accomplish it
<leudaimon|Work> and then station modules can carry a bigger number right?
<Pap> well, maybe, let me think on that
<Pap> Yes, station modules will be larger as the technology progresses as well
<leudaimon|Work> cool
<Pap> Hot damn, I might be able to create 2 converters on the same craft. Then I can have it generate CrewTime that would be a bonus from Scientists, then something like "NavigationTime" that would be a bonus from a Pilot and then "EngineeringTime" that would be a bonus from an Engineer
<Pap> ^^^^ Don't know if possible, but it should be
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<leudaimon|Work> that would be nice
<leudaimon|Work> I'm not sure what function could be given to engineers though
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<Pap> Power Tools Evaluation
<Pap> Probably the only one though
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<Pap> In RO, Engineers are useless
<soundnfury> Pap: I found them useless in stock as well tbh
<Pap> Hard to disagree with that soundnfury. Well, unless you were drilling for a lot of ore
<soundnfury> that reminds me, I really should try RealISRU at some point
<soundnfury> (when I have a non-scagged PC again...)
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<leudaimon|Work> Pap: I wonder if they could be useful in orbital construction instead of experiments
<leudaimon|Work> idea: what about require engineers to change experiments in stations?
<Pap> That is a good idea leudaimon|Work I will see if it will work
<awang> NathanKell|AWAY: KSP says that there are plane rollout costs in the editor for some cabins at least. Maybe they're just never applied? idk
<NathanKell|WORK> The editor is not reliable, as we've discussed.
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<leudaimon|Work> brb, gone for dinner
<Bornholio_> had an initial part node contract not want to complete wouldnt fire until after i entered and left VAB once
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<Pap> That is strange Bornholio_
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<Bornholio_> how do i get experiment to load
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<Bornholio> is that inflight only?
<Pap> No, in the VAB, you need to load them throuhg the right clikc menu
<Pap> I cannot remember the name of it right now, but it might be Manage "something"
<Pap> Manage Operations I think
<Pap> Bornholio: ^^
<Bornholio> is there a requirment for the contract first?
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<Gus> so now I'm rocking the dev branch, and I gotta say it's pretty cool
<Gus> but I don't know how I feel about the facility upgrade stuff.
<Gus> The tech tree looks way better than the old one, but the facility upgrades are so crazy expensive for what seems like very little payoff.
<dxdy> it does feel a lot more sensible in terms of upgrading the launchpad though than it was before
<Pap> No bornholio, it isn't a contract, the experiments are unlocked with the Basic Capsules tech
<dxdy> which building do you think gives very little payoff (apart from the admin building^^)
<Gus> Well, gimme a minute dxdy I'm still so early in the campaign that I haven't quite discovered the inner workings of everything :P
<Gus> I just generally dislike the first year or two of any rp-0 install just because of how low tech and slow everything is
<Bornholio> looking at the basic capsule configuration UI, experiment Lab and Experiment (Tabs), https://i.imgur.com/vic9AS7.png not seeing how i load them Album https://imgur.com/a/nKsp3
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<Bornholio> pap ^
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<Pap> Hmmmmmmm, obviously something not working Bornholio. I won't be able to check for a couple of hours
<Bornholio> k figured i must be missing something
<soundnfury> Gus: I love the early low-tech phase, because I have an excuse to do ridiculous envelope-pushing
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<Gus> Quick question about Tooling - how does that work on procedural parts?
<Gus> If I tool a specific procedural part, say, the upper stage tank for my soyuz alike, does that all get tossed out if I lengthen the now tooled stage by a meter?
<soundnfury> Gus: cost of a new tooling is lower if you already have that diameter
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<soundnfury> so stretching a stage costs a bit but you have an incentive to keep the dia' the same
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<Gus> I'll figure that one out sooner or later, haha.
<Gus> I love the tech tree though, seriously.
<Gus> The doctrine of more, smaller tech nodes is amazing - my least favorite thing about the previous iteration of RP-0 was that sometimes it would be a YEAR before I got new parts, because 100 science for the 2nd level soyuz engines was just silly at that point in time.
<Gus> and it looks like you guys nerfed staged combustion a little, which is nice because really there was no incentive to research anything else in the old iteration of RP-0
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<leudaimon> o/
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<Gus> suggestion: split hypergolic engines into their own category that splits off of the early titan 1 era
<Gus> reason: sometimes you feel like a nut. Sometimes you don't.
<Bornholio> the engines are placed in historical prograssion
<Bornholio> porgression
<Bornholio> god darn keyboard skill are mad today
<Gus> Bornholio: right, but you could have them be historical progression but "1966 hypergolic engines" could be next to "1966 Orbital Rocketry" and "1966 Staged Combustion Engines"
<leudaimon> Gus, I don't think the tech behind it is so different for turbopumped hypergolic and kerolox
<leudaimon> the main difference afaik is between pressure-fed and hypergolic
<blowfish> pressure fed vs pump fed you mean?
<Gus> but we already have 4 engine categories
<Gus> why not have a 5th so I can spend less science on kerolox engines and more on THE VENERABLE TITAN
<leudaimon> that blowfish
<Gus> actually, I just think that Proton & Titan should go together, and Saturn and N1 should be together.
<Gus> But currently Proton and N1 are linear progression and Saturn and Titan are linear progression
<Gus> the proposal is to try to de-nationalize the progression slightly.
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<leudaimon> but staged combustion is very different from gas-generator
<soundnfury> leudaimon: in fairness, there are real design differences between hypergolic and ignited systems
<soundnfury> (though, I agree, not nearly of the same magnitude as between different engine cycles)
<Gus> No I'm not saying Staged Combustion doesn't deserve it's own category - I'm saying so do hypergolic engines.
<leudaimon> we might start splitting hairs Gus
<Gus> Right, but as long as the research costs are shared reasonably we would basically just allow players to go down a route that hteir design bureau prefers.
<leudaimon> someone could argue we to have a pressure-fed engines branch too, and then things start getting too complicated to organize and separate, especially because some of these divisions are not mutually exclusive
<leudaimon> but that's my opinion of course
<Bornholio> especial since many motors run both with little modification