<Bornholio>
any requirements beyone the testing .dlls added to intal for dev?
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<Pap>
Bornholio: You need DMagic Orbital Science and DMagic Module Science Animate mods
<Bornholio>
k, normally add them out of habit anyway
<Bornholio>
wasn't there some mole code or did you steal it and shoehorn it into dev?
<awang>
Pap: Did you get to try the RealScience fork?
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<Pap>
Bornholio not yet for the MOLE stuff. I am trying to see if NK might be able to do some magic to limit the experiments to only allow them around Earth. Otherwise, I am going to have to go way more generic and limit what is included.
<Pap>
awang: not yet, haven't been to my computer yet.
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<awang>
Pap: Alright
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<NathanKell|AWAY>
Gonna be out until late. Pap leave me a tell work what specifically you want new to figure out?
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<ferram4>
hehehehHHEHEHAHAHAHAHAHAH I found an entire NASA textbook on combustion stability! :D
<Pap>
Woah, big find!
<awang>
What Pap said!
<awang>
Where'd you find it?
<awang>
I'm on a university campus, too, in case that helps
<awang>
lamont: did you get a debugging setup working?
<awang>
Or still using Debug.Log?
<lamont>
still Debug.Logging haven’t tried wiring up mdbs again
<awang>
Hm
<awang>
Do you at least have Unity 5.4.0p4 (or whatever KSP 1.2.2 is) downloaded?
<awang>
My computer is refusing to run the debug players
<awang>
but I'm on the 10.13 beta
<awang>
so idk if it's just the new OS
<lamont>
hah
<lamont>
i’m still 10.11 on this desktop
<awang>
lol
<awang>
Bit behind the times, aren't we
<lamont>
reminds me i should try compiling Principia on the 11.12 laptop and see if i can make it work
<awang>
Hmmm
<lamont>
yeah desktop is a hackintosh and as long as its running i don’t want to touch it, i’m mildly terrified of upgrading
<awang>
Wonder if I can do that too, since VS for Mac is a thing...
<awang>
Oh, nice
<lamont>
last time i rebooted it took me 16 hours to get it back up again
<awang>
Thought about making a hackintosh many times, but never ended up doing that
<awang>
wat
<awang>
That's... interesting
<awang>
Better hope you don't get any power outages :P
<lamont>
i think it was a logitech driver trolling me the whole time
<lamont>
yeah
<awang>
you need a driver for Logitech stuff?
<lamont>
hopefully it’ll reboot more reliably next time
<awang>
Don't they just have keyboards and mice?
<lamont>
yeah, but they’ve got bloatware shit just like everyone else and i thought i needed that to tune this mouse
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
Got yourself one of those fancy mice
<lamont>
not really
<lamont>
G403
<awang>
That's relatively fancy
<lamont>
its not got eight thousand buttons on it tho
<awang>
It has more than 2
<awang>
The RF and KCT dlls are the only ones that need replacing, right?
<Pap>
Correct awang
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<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* After looking into it more, all I really need to know, is if you can find a way to limit EXPERIMENT_DEFINITIONS to only be available at specific planetary bodies. DMagic Module Science Animate has a planetaryMask, but that only works for the stock planets. Ideally, you would use the extensibility of WildBlueTools EXPERIMENT_DEFINITIONS, and create a KSPField that checks for the planetary body we want.
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
The chance of success one is going to be fun!
<xShadowx|2>
Pap: then a KKS module, denting the experiment raises failure chance :P
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<Pap|Sleep>
o/ all
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<BadRocketsCo>
hmm
<BadRocketsCo>
dang this laptop
<BadRocketsCo>
I have to play on the integrated GPU and that doesn�t let me to run KSP RO properly
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<Pap>
o/
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<Bornholio>
.
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<Pap>
Bornholio: How did the interview go?
<Bornholio>
one good one meh
<Pap>
Well good luck!
<Pap>
Did you play with the new science system at all?
<Bornholio>
not yet, was going to this morning install it and hopefully
<Pap>
Gotcha
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
o/
<Pap>
Hello Hypergolic_Skunk
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
T-2 Days till LoF (Loss of Freedom)
<Bornholio>
I'm sure your an M and will enjoy the suffering
<Pap>
^^^^^ Eeeeeeeeek
<Bornholio>
yes proper ninja
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I am going to need basically 48 straight hours of RP-0 testing from you before we will release you to the wild
<Bornholio>
might have to grab my son out of school and drive an hour or so on monday. We are at 98% totality and forecast mostly cloudy :( I can get to 100% totality and mostly sunny with a 1 hour drive
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: I wish :P
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<Pap>
Bornholio: from what I am told, you should do it. We are driving 7 hours one direction
<Pap>
I really should have planned better. I cannot find solar filters anywhere in order to take pictures, damn
<a_schack>
This is the suggested orbit in tracking station, but I was under the impression it was far more elliptical
<a_schack>
Btw, excellent description on it :)
<Pap>
So, typically, the orbit is not that much more eccentric. The reason being is that you would get too high, or far away from Earth if you had a highly eccentric orbit. It is a synchronous orbit, so in order to have a SMA with an orbital period of 23h 56m, it needs to be less eccentric. The best way to think about it is like this...
<Pap>
If you look at the images from the NOAA satellites that operate in LEO polar orbit and you look at the images from the GOES satellites that operate at GEO orbit, the quality of the images it MUCH better for the NOAA polar satellites
<Pap>
Once you start getting too high of an orbit, the usefulness of the satellite diminishes
<a_schack>
Good point - I always figured it to be just a sidereal molniya orbit
<Pap>
The Tundra orbit has only been used in RL by 2 (or 3 satellites) the Sirius Satellite ones
<Pap>
a_schack: That is what I thought as well before I started researching
<Pap>
I don't think there is much point to them, that is why they aren't usually used
<a_schack>
And in general excellent job on the new contracts. I'm having a blast trying to figure out the best way of completing them.
<a_schack>
I'm still just playing the latest release + master for contracts/tech tree
<a_schack>
Since I just came back after a year away from RO/RP-0 and really need to find my bearings again
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<Pap>
a_schack: Yeah, it is worth it before jumping into the new changes that are on the dev versions!
<a_schack>
Yeah, I've been following the chat, github and whatnot for the past couple of weeks, and those are some pretty big changes
<Pap>
It is basically a different game now
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<Bornholio>
pap did you find a filter?
<Pap>
Bornholio: Not something that I could have delivered tomorrow
<Pap>
There is a science surplus shop that I am going to head to on my lunch
<Bornholio>
If you have a 5-10 ND filter a film of reflective mylar (emergency blanket) will be enough over that to safe the camera
<Pap>
Ah, I will look for that as a backup option
<Bornholio>
you can safely view naked eye full sun with three layers
<Pap>
I am also going to see if I can cover my telescope
<Bornholio>
thats art because of the optical path you can have hots spots. If the mfg and resselers have simple front end filter though it should not have a problem with ND filtes and something to cut IR down like R-Mylar
<Bornholio>
I'm annoyed my only ND filter i can find after two das of digging in my stuff is a Co2 laser filter way to dark to even see sun at full brightness
<Bornholio>
days
<Bornholio>
I've got cobalt 18 and 16's somewhere in this pile of debris i call storage
<Iskierka>
is there a way to get the (guesstimated?) part volume for assigning tank sizes?
<Sigma88>
I have a physics question for whoever has a minute to spare
<Sigma88>
in stock ksp the sun illuminates all the planets with the same intensity
<Sigma88>
I'm talking about the tracking station view
<Sigma88>
this means that kerbin, eve and eeloo have the same intensity of light
<Sigma88>
now kopernicus allows to change that based on the distance from the star
<xShadowx|2>
its more a map so you can see
<Sigma88>
how would that intensity change with distance from the star?
<Sigma88>
my first guess would have been that it follows the inverse square law
<Sigma88>
but if I use that, duna is basically in the dark
<Iskierka>
it does but it's not useful to change the brightness as it'll wash out completely on Eve already and be invisible on any outer planets
<Iskierka>
the intensity for *rendering* is kept flat for visibility and because the eye in reality would adjust
<Iskierka>
the solar panels already follow appropriate scaling that is not visually represented so you can figure out what's going on
<Sigma88>
so mars actually is as dark as that?
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<Iskierka>
by absolute energy received, yes
<Iskierka>
by eye's self-correction or automatic correction on digital optics, it's whatever brightness is most useful
<Sigma88>
ok but eyes are not as good as technology
<Sigma88>
I mean, after sunset you can still see but it's clearly darker than during the day
<Iskierka>
Eyes are far superior to technology for brightness adjustment
<Bornholio>
massivly so without mechanical filtering
<Iskierka>
Eyes can still see somewhat at a thirteen billionth of sunlight
<Sigma88>
depends on the scale I guess
<Iskierka>
What feels like maybe half brightness to the eye is likely to actually be more like a hundredth of the actual light energy
<Iskierka>
The eye's chemical sensor method has *astounding* compensation ability
<Bornholio>
depending on frequency, each of RGB cones and also rods have seperate sensitivty range, so 540nm Green is going to have a much different range that 670nm red
<Bornholio>
thats why night vision uses use red filters on light sources to keep from ruinning night vision
<Iskierka>
it's very apparent using DSLRs with manual settings as it gets dark - you don't feel like it's gotten much darker but the pictures will start coming out black and you need to recalibrate
<Pap>
Iskierka: What was your question from before about volume?
<Bornholio>
but you only care about true luminosity Sigma88
<Sigma88>
which is?
<Iskierka>
Pap, if there's a way to query the physical volumes of them to correct parts with funky volumes set for fuel tank mods
<Iskierka>
I get way more fuel with the cargo bay version of some parts and a fuel tank inside it than the fuel tank version
<Pap>
Ah, that would be a question for those smarter than me, sorry I cannot help
<Bornholio>
Irradiance is likely what you are asking its L= 4*pi*k*I*A^2 (k=1 for most purposes)
<Bornholio>
A is distance in Au
<xShadowx|2>
from inside ksp, no reliable way, stil need human touch if you want accuracy, best way imo is blender + mu script, supossedly now says volume on export for easier access :D
<xShadowx|2>
Iskierka: ^
<Sigma88>
Bornholio: yes that's what I did
<Pap>
Iskierka: The other route is I use a procedural tank and create it at the same size as the part and get the volume from there
<Iskierka>
part is not quite such simple geometry
<Iskierka>
though I could just assume it's correct on the cargo tank and add on the fuel tank I fit inside
<Bornholio>
you will get really bright and really dark planets for viewing purposes since eyes won't adjust to the it
<xShadowx|2>
model apps (such as blender) include tools to calculate volume of a mesh, regardless of how mangled of a shapwe it is :)
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<Iskierka>
and it's a part already in KSP so that's less helpful
<Pap>
Bornholio: you know many things...Would you like to discuss some science experiments and limiting them to specific places and situations?
<Pap>
Iskierka: Use the .MU import
<Bornholio>
lol, sure
<Iskierka>
If I import them to blender I have to go through each individually and keep checking what I'm working with
<xShadowx|2>
welp thats your options
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<xShadowx|2>
ksp has no magical 'show me volume' button
<Pap>
Bornholio: So we have all of the new science experiments, and we now have the ability to force them to only work in certain situations. Are there any that should only work while Orbiting instead of ESCAPING (flyby) or SUB ORBITAL?
<Iskierka>
There's usually a mod to add it when you need such info
<Pap>
Bornholio: Also, can we look at your Cosmic Ray Science ideas in a different way? There are a lot of experiments that we could more fit into the way that KSP works. For example, I know that Geiger Counters are different than Gamma Ray experiments, etc, but that is the extent of my knowledge on it
<Bornholio>
pap New horizons is a good way to think about flyby, if you look at the nice pictures they have now you can see that the problem is that then degrade depending on distance from the closest point. so for image related experiments doing a flyby doesn't get the full dataset (picture of the whole planetsurface for example)
<Sigma88>
I'll try with a linear curve instead of exponential
<Bornholio>
for magnetic/ion experiments, suborbital gets you a very important first understanding of whats in the band and what altitude, but later orbital experiments give you the shape (in one orbit), but for pressure unless its low altitude the pressure changes in space are very one dimensional to altitude
<Bornholio>
If a SO experiment sent up a micrometeor impact experiment it most likely gets near zero events and no data, but if during a meteor shower period may get hundreds. So Orbital is many time more likely to get that data and better (yearly data) assuming it lasts long enough
<Bornholio>
so fly by suffers similar limitation (is it at the right time) for MM impact but , pressure it gets a nice full set of data, while Geiger it gets a partial shape of the ions trapped in a magnetice field.
<Bornholio>
pap is wondering how much work i'm implying :P
<Iskierka>
Actually don't think I need to measure as it looks like all the values are relatively consistently off. Modified from a config for MFT which does not appear to subscribe to 5l/u
<Iskierka>
don't know if that's MFT's calibration or a bad config
<Bornholio>
pap i'm going to make a kopy of the science wiki and make notes on it and post it as a link on the bottom of current wiki
<leudaimon>
Pap, just installed the new science... I don't see the Early Film Camera in the tech tree... start node has only thermometer, barometer and the bio sample capsules
<Pap>
leudaimon: It is in the Unlock Parts node
<Pap>
Also, ALT-F12 yourself back the 50,000 entry cost it requires, that was a mistake on my part
<leudaimon>
ah, ok!
<leudaimon>
found it
<Pap>
Bornholio: Thanks for all of the data! The notes will be great!
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<leudaimon>
:o science part prices were greatly increased...
<leudaimon>
100 for a thermometer?
<leudaimon>
is that correct Pap?
<Bornholio>
8-o
<leudaimon>
got to go here, but considering the sounding rocket core costs 1fund, I think these values must be changed
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<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: Back?
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<leudaimon|Work>
hey Pap
<leudaimon|Work>
yeah, didn't even remember I had left my work computer on yesterday
<leudaimon|Work>
what do you think about the science parts prices?
<leudaimon|Work>
adding a thermo and baro to a WAC more than doubles build time...
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<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: I guess I can return those to being much lower cost. The reason I wanted to increase the cost of the science experiments is because they are damn expensive in RL. A large portion of the cost of a probe is the science experiments. Which is often times why they don't send 10 experiments, they send 5. For Thermo and Barometer, they can be lowered again to make sense for Sounding Rockets
<leudaimon|Work>
yeah Pap, I think the other experiments can be very expensive. It's just these very early two that should be cheap... especially if the sounding rocket core is that cheap
<Bornholio>
it makes sense of that barometer is a Ionization Densitometer and only functions in near vacuum
<leudaimon|Work>
these are different things, aren't them Bornholio?
<Bornholio>
it measures air pressure
<Pap>
So now that I did all this work, as I am looking at the new abilities we have to limit science gains, I am thinking that maybe I once again separate out all of the science functions in separate Experiments instead of having parts determine how much of a percentage of science can be returned of a specific experiment
<Bornholio>
but yeah without isolating the intrument to various subtypes, the simple pressure/temp sensors from aircraft got repurposed can't take all the data that later instruments can even though they are the same type. I paid 6000$ for a temperture probe year before last :P
<Pap>
It will give me greater control over everything. For example. Let's say that we think a Barometer can gather enough science after being in a situation (say Flying Low) for 5 seconds. We have a Resource Converter on the Barometer that creates PressureData at a rate of 1 per second. We then say that Early Barometric Pressure Readings require 5 PressureData and then they are accomplished.
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<Pap>
But I see what you are saying Bornholio
<Pap>
Is there a way to combine the 2.....That is the question
<Bornholio>
unfortunately everything we do adds complexity both infrastructure and game play
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<Bornholio>
so i would say that defining what a goal is more important that getting it exactly right
<Pap>
Yeah Bornholio that makes sense. Hmmmmmm
<Bornholio>
is the goal in changint pressure sensor to make the player send multiple missions? or plan a better path
<Pap>
X Science also has an issue with the way the current system is setup, that should be taken into effect as well I think
<Bornholio>
thousands of sounding rockets have carried pressure gauges and added to the body of work
<Pap>
Right
<Pap>
I don't think we want the player to have to do the same thing over and over again. So I don't think we want to force 3 sounding rockets to get the air pressure in an early career. I do think it is worthwhile to have someone send a sounding rocket for pressure now, and then two more in later years / decades
<Bornholio>
so how about increasing technology each technode for instruments
<Bornholio>
define a overall function to make it simple.
<Bornholio>
like the fact that you have a pressure guage in you pocket right now
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<Bornholio>
but major improvements that have cost and weight increases are the sub parts
<Pap>
Bornholio: I am not understanding. Is that different than the system now (the new one)?
<Bornholio>
a pressure guage in '51 compared to a similar instrument today (on a chip in my phone
<Pap>
True, but how to represent that in game?
<Bornholio>
but as time goes on instruments get more accurate and take more data have more functions, range etc. so we still take more data more data is needed to produce further effect. Yes the parts system does that.
<Pap>
Wouldn't that be "assumed" in the structure of the new types of instruments now that can give you 100% of the science whereas you were not getting that much before?
<Bornholio>
Suggesting that tech upgrade system is used to make lighter faster cheaper
<Pap>
Ah, I understand
<Pap>
the PARTUPGRADES ?
<Bornholio>
yeah, otherwise you add more and more parts that do the same function just better
<Pap>
So a Barometer might be 0.005 tons in 1950 and cost 100, but in 1970 it is 0.0005 tons and costs 20?
<NathanKell|WORK>
yo
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [18.08.2017 04:30:18]: "After looking into it more, all I really need to know, is if you can find a way to limit EXPERIMENT_DEFINITIONS to only be available at specific planetary bodies. DMagic Module Science Animate has a planetaryMask, but that only works for the stock planets. Ideally, you would use the extensibility of WildBlueTools EXPERIMENT_DEFINITIONS,
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [18.08.2017 04:33:08]: "Angel-125 is a very good guy and if you find a simple way to enhance the feature, I am sure he would accept the PR from you."
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: Disregard all tells from me
<Pap>
o/
<NathanKell|WORK>
sorry, got home too late to do anything
<Bornholio>
Thirsty thrusday
<leudaimon|Work>
Pap: a less dramatic change to balance things is just reduce the yield of experiments
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: No worry, there was actually nothing to do!
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: Why reduce the yield?
<Bornholio>
of cousre once again play balance is harder
<leudaimon|Work>
I thought you mentioned too much science was being generated
<Pap>
No, not too much, I have balanced it to make sure that is not the case
<leudaimon|Work>
ah ok, I misunderstood you comment about separate experiments above
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<Pap>
We are trying to find a way to limit how much Orbital Perturbation science you can gather from a SubOrbital hop. Currently, I get 100% of the science that I would get suborbital or orbital. In reality, it takes quite a while to study Orbital Perturbations and shouldn't be allowed in a quick hop
<Pap>
We are trying to determine if it is worth it to limit all the experiments like that, or to only make decisions on some of them
<leudaimon|Work>
I see, yeaj, orbital science should be much better than flybys or suborbital
<Pap>
So NathanKell|WORK that means I might have something for you to look into
<leudaimon|Work>
I mentioned it before... I think if it were possible to borrow the scansat mechanics it would fit very well for this kind of experiment
<NathanKell|WORK>
It's not possible atm, no.
<NathanKell|WORK>
That's a RealScience thing.
<NathanKell|WORK>
i.e. not for now
<leudaimon|Work>
yeah, that's what I thought
<leudaimon|Work>
in that case, things are much better than they were anyway
<Bornholio>
make maps for all the bodies, whereas SCANsat just uses existing normal and biome
<leudaimon|Work>
I wasn't even thinking about maps, but % coverage
<leudaimon|Work>
and altitude dependent FOV
<Pap>
However NK, it might be possible in a much easier format right now...Using the WildBlueTools functionality, we can require a specific amount of resources to mark an experiment complete. So, let's say that I need 10 MassSpec resource to get 100% of the Mass Spectrometry experiment. Could we (__you__) write a code that says if you only get 3 MassSpec resource, you can transmit early for 30%?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Not really, no
<NathanKell|WORK>
That completely changes how science works, AIUI
<Pap>
Got it, ok
<NathanKell|WORK>
You either can run the experiment or you can't
<NathanKell|WORK>
unless those mods change that
<NathanKell|WORK>
best ask Angel-125 in discord I think
<NathanKell|WORK>
sorry!
<Pap>
Yeah, the only other option would be a crazy idea that I had, oh well
<Bornholio>
crazy idea makes it crazy good :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: How does the science limiting in dmagic or WBI work?
<NathanKell|WORK>
is it something they could extend?
<Pap>
Crazy Idea...each Science Part is a Research Lab requiring 0 scientists to operate. The same part runs the experiment. An event is created that as soon as the Experiment is completed (worth 0.01 science), it is automatically sent to the "Research Lab" portion of it's part. Then, we set the Research Time and Amount to how long we think it should take. It allows transmitting early for partial science.
<Pap>
See crazy idea, it still requires code to be written for the automatic transfer however
<Pap>
Too complicated to work effectivelty
<NathanKell|WORK>
That's actually not too crazy an idea tbh :)
<Pap>
LOL
<NathanKell|WORK>
quite good really
<NathanKell|WORK>
And it doesn't need automatic transfer, we can make the player do it :P
<NathanKell|WORK>
Um, isn't one of the buttons 'send to lab' anyway? rather than keep or transmit?
<Bornholio>
Nahtan is the devil
<NathanKell|WORK>
Houston is aware.
<Pap>
Yes, the issue is that you would need each part to be it's own Lab, that is why I thought the automatic transfer was necessary. If there are multiple labs on a craft, you could choose the one that would give you the most science data.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Oh, wait, spitballs
<NathanKell|WORK>
It's ~bobcode~ and therefore disgustingly slow IIRC. :(
<Bornholio>
only thing i can see prolematic is that it allows the lab mechanic of unlimited science
<NathanKell|WORK>
(It uses ISRU code as its base, and that, despite sarbian's best cleanup efforts, and mine, is an utter dog)
<Pap>
Ah, nevermind then
<Pap>
OK, we will stick with the system that we have
<Pap>
We will choose which experiments CANNOT be run Suborbital or on an Escape trajectory, and we will leave it at that
<NathanKell|WORK>
ok
<Probus>
o/
<Pap>
o/
<Pap>
OK, so experiments that should only be allowed while in ORBIT (Orbital Perturbation and SIGINT (only available at Earth),)?
<Pap>
I don't think any of the rest of them fit
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Also, hate to be That Guy (tm) but is there any non-military/intelligence experiment we could use to replace SIGINT?
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<Pap>
Hmmmmmm, it could be that we turn the antennas the other way and say that it is listening for Aliens?
<Pap>
OR, we can leave SIGINT out (which wouldn't be the end of the world)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Radio signal transmission experiments?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Hmm
<Pap>
Right now, they are VERY expensive and VERY heavy
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yeah, it's just the film return stuff has Legit Scientific Applications (tm), as does the earth imaginng contract ("we need storm/wildfire/whatever pics")
<Pap>
Correct, SIGINT is very hard to try and shoehorn into that
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ok, so: what gameplay purpose does it serve? Another biomes-in-low-space expierment?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Anything else viable from that time period?
<Pap>
No, it is actually Geostationary Science
<Pap>
Global, not Biome specific
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ahhh
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<Pap>
However, the science itself is not needed. I mostly included it because we had the models available already from DMagic
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah, gotcha
<Pap>
It isn't a true Science experiment anyway
<Pap>
I will remove it in light of we do not have military applications in RP-0 (which I am perfectly good with)
<NathanKell|WORK>
It does sound a bit more like a contract for the Mil-Intel Contracts Pack (c) 2017, ferram4
<Pap>
^^^ DOA :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
:)
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<Rokker>
Pap: you should get in on the eclipse party
<Pap>
Rokker: What kind of party?
<Rokker>
we are gonna meet up at the museum on Sunday and head out Monday morning to see the moon fight against global warming for a few hours
<Pap>
I will be driving all morning on Monday, no party for me
<Rokker>
Pap: a boring museum tour kinda morning
<Pap>
Rokker: in 2024, the eclipse is going to cross right over your house
<Rokker>
party*
<Rokker>
Pap: I'm aware
<Rokker>
but knowing my luck it will be cloudy af
<Rokker>
so
<Pap>
lol
<Rokker>
I'm hedging my bets
<Pap>
Get an Infrared camera #noclouds
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<Pap>
Rokker: I'll sell you my eclipse glasses on Tuesday for $5
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<Bornholio>
lol
<Rokker>
Pap: I bought 10 eclipse glasses like 3 years ago for like 11 dollars or something
<Rokker>
and then I lost them
<Rokker>
so
<Rokker>
well
<Rokker>
I think I know where they are
<Bornholio>
ok pap, is start new career time x13 ? or keep playing with current
<Rokker>
but effort
<Bornholio>
I ithink my wife through out a box of science junk :( but still searching, it will have my scintillation counter electronics in it too
<Bornholio>
my filters, very expensive(to someone) filters!
<Rokker>
Bornholio: that sounds like grounds for divorce right there
<Rokker>
rip science
<Pap>
Bornholio: definitely start a new one
<Pap>
Let me push a quick update
<Bornholio>
I suspect just moved to some hellish recess of my stored stuff, dang it i just patched
<Bornholio>
.sigh\
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<Bornholio>
reward level/diff?
<Pap>
I believe we are still between 300 and 400% funds rewards
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<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v5eUM
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 1347c2e Pap: Science Costs Fixes, Lunar Landing Note, Mass Spectrometry Data Scale, Early Film entryCost...
<Pap>
Alright Bornholio
<Bornholio>
science on hard is 60% stay with that?
<Pap>
Make sure you have DMagic Orbital Science and DMagic Science Module Animate mods
<Pap>
Yep
<Bornholio>
k
<leudaimon|Work>
Pap, any reason for the film return camera to be in the part unlocks node, while the other experiments are in the start?
<Pap>
No leudaimon|Work I think I just moved it to start for the above push, let me confirm
<Bornholio>
if its in the parts node then if you have no non purchased parts shown in VAB option you can ignore it
<Bornholio>
.hugs_PARTSNODE
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: I did not move it, but I have for the next push
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<Bornholio_>
ISP is sucking since school started at 3:00
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<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: guess what I just learned
<Rokker>
staring at the sun is fun
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<Pap>
^^^ said the blind person
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<Pap>
How would everyone feel about getting rid of biome specific Crew Reports and replacing them with a science system instead?
<Pap>
So the system would be experiments the crew needs to complete such as Liquids in Microgravity, Flight Control Experiments, Visual Tracking Experiments, Photography Experiments, etc
<NathanKell|WORK>
Do like
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<Bornholio>
so my science mods are going to see these?
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: staring at the sun makes my face warm
<Pap>
Bornholio: What do you mean?
<Bornholio>
[x] science andthe like
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<Pap>
Bornholio: Well, [x] Science won't even really know about it. It works on a separate system. I will have plenty of testing on my end before I get rid of Crew Reports for sure
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* schnobs
just fell off his bike
<Pap>
I just watched the Atlas V launch from today, damn the RD-180 is a nice engine. And I also hate that NASA is giving me its data in Imperial units
<schnobs>
like, pounds force?
<Pap>
Like, "The Atlas V is now traveling at 4400 mph"
<schnobs>
Believe you me, km/h wouldn't be any better.
<Pap>
I hear ya, I want meters per seconds
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<Rokker>
incoming engine album
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK ^
<NathanKell|WORK>
If ft/sec was good enough for Neil...
<Pap>
I'm not as magnanimous as Neil. I am a lesser person and demand my metric system (that I don't understand except for weight for my job and in KSP terms)
<Rokker>
Pap: the metric system turns ur brain into mush
<Rokker>
imperial keeps ur brain nice and strong
<NathanKell|WORK>
uh huh.
<ProjectThoth>
I want a novelty mod that replaces all units in KSP with fortnights, hogsheads, and leagues.
<Bornholio>
you can
<Pap>
I believe that the US uses Imperial to try to prove to everyone that we are superior. "See, we use this system that doesn't make any sense and no one can understand except for us!"
<Bornholio>
no just plan hard headedness
<Rokker>
Pap: are you kidding
<Rokker>
the brits are way worse
<Pap>
ProjectThoth: Don't forget measurements of the craft sizes in hands
<Rokker>
they use both systems
<Rokker>
at once
<Bornholio>
plumbing sizes that have not one frigging thing in common with what you actually measure
<Pap>
Rokker: That is because they needed something to do after there were no more colonies to create and peoples to oppress
<Rokker>
Bornholio: I will not stand for this commie speak in my presence
* Pap
kicks Rokker
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yep, that solves the standing problem.
<Sarbian>
NathanKell|WORK: Don't ever speak of the ISRU code again. E V E R !
<Bornholio>
is subjecting my return pod to 192G enough?
<Sarbian>
That shall be forgotten
<NathanKell|WORK>
Or rewritten, since we made it all virtual.
<NathanKell|WORK>
but time~~~~
<NathanKell|WORK>
Bornholio: I'd have thought DRE would have killed it for that
<NathanKell|WORK>
or KSP itself since we turned G limits on and they default to 40 IIRC
<Bornholio>
was tiny little drogue chute peak, as it was about to make the crunchy noise
<Bornholio>
though forsure it was a gonner
<Bornholio>
oh not crew, just a aerobee core, small tanka nd parachute cone
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<Bornholio_>
can i make a pusher prop plane with just thrust reversing?
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Bornholio: Yes. That's what it's there for. :)
<Bornholio>
I've only used it for stopping faster :)
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<schnobs>
I'm not too fond of G limits -- Venera no workee.
<schnobs>
Or temp limits, for that matter, ever since putting an Agena into sunlight maxed out all heatsinks.
<ProjectThoth>
Fill it with ice.
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<Bornholio>
pap photos not storable in container?
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<awang>
Is the Beechcraft Bonaza supposed to be statically stable?
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<NathanKell>
awang: yes.
<awang>
I'm really screwing something up then
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
short question: where can I find avionics-info now? :)
<xShadowx>
i wonder how badly apollo crews would wish they had an arduino :|
<Bornholio>
skunk under the F rp0 button
<Bornholio>
maintenance button, then avionics
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
F rp0 button?
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<Bornholio>
Green character holding a grey wrench
<awang>
Is that a British pound symbol?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
thanks for the n-th time, Bornholio :)
<Bornholio>
need to update the wiki :) again
<awang>
Is anyone willing to look at my Bonaza to tell me what I'm doing wrong?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
awang: :D lol I meant Bornholio, but let me have a look anyway
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<awang>
Oooops
<awang>
:/
<awang>
My bad
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
what seems to be the issue?
<Bornholio>
does it lawn dart?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
all good awang :) I love building prop planes, mostly because I've played so much early career recently
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
the wings seem to be a bit on the narrow side (I mean the distance from down to up, as seen on the second picture) .. the control surface is 50% of the 'width' (?)
<soundnfury>
awang: wings look a bit thin (chord) and a bit far forwards
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
chord! gotta remember that one
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<awang>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Is the overall width correct?
<awang>
Like do the control surfaces need to become smaller relative to the non-moving parts?
<soundnfury>
I'd say even with the control surfaces the chord's still too narrow
<soundnfury>
there just isn't enough wing area there
<awang>
soundnfury: IIRC I had the wings larger, but FAR analysis said that was more unstable
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
awang: if I were designing it, I'd give it some generous chord. maybe even as big as they are currently incl. control surfaces. and then make the control-surfaces only half as wide
<awang>
Hmmm
<soundnfury>
but the main thing is that those wings are too far forward
<soundnfury>
remember that the centre of pressure is near the leading edge
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I actually like the positioning of the wings
<soundnfury>
(the 'centre of lift' doodad lies because it thinks the tailplane is lifting. If the tailplane is lifting you will be unstable and not go to flying today)
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<awang>
soundnfury: I thought FAR overrode the CoL
<awang>
Guess not?
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<awang>
Ahhhhhhh conflicting information
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
we should all do a Bonanza-contest sometime :P
<soundnfury>
anyway, what I really need to see is the FAR stabbity derivs
<awang>
soundnfury: What Mach number/altitude should I use?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
awang: also, I once watched a streamer remove the Base Width on the control surfaces (the white part), and I've done the same ever since. it's a little more work, but it looks better
<awang>
Bornholio: I like how the second picture makes it look like the left wing is missing
<soundnfury>
awang: you care most about stabbity at takeoff/landing, so mach 0.35, zero alt
<awang>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Good idea!
<Bornholio>
yeah its too swept for a prop
<awang>
soundnfury: Flaps set for takeoff then?
<soundnfury>
awang: nah, you want to get the 'clean' profile working first
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<soundnfury>
(then make sure your flaps improve on that)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh, also remove the Edge Trailing Width on the wings, so you don't have clipping .. but that's just cosmetic. I like the *chord* much more now :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
but yeah, the wings could be moved back a meter or so
<awang>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Clipping?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh wait, you already removed it, right?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Proc Wings normally have an aerodynamic trailing edge
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
that looks exactly like control surfaces
<awang>
Yeah, that's gone
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
cool, then I have nothing to add, other than to experiment with moving the wing a meter back or so.
<soundnfury>
awang: yeah your Mw is positive which means you're longitudinally divergent
<soundnfury>
which means you need to move the CG forward or CP aft
<awang>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Moving the wings definitely makes it look more like a normal plane
<awang>
Doesn't change the stability derivatives, unfortunately
<soundnfury>
awang: you sure you clicked to recalculate them?
<awang>
soundnfury: Yep
<soundnfury>
part of your problem might be that you're really short-coupled. That fuselage is far too short
<awang>
Ah
<soundnfury>
(which means you probably feel you can't move your wings back far enough because the tail gets in the way)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
awang: I'd also do the same with the elevator construction. and you could place the vertical stabilizer on top of a longer, steeper (but low) stabilizer
<awang>
Yeah, that was definitely something on my mind
<soundnfury>
your engine looks fairly small and light which means the wings probably need to be something like 50% of the way along the fuselage
<awang>
I assume I have to use a proc structural part or something to properly extend the body?
<soundnfury>
yeah, always use proc structural for fuselages
<soundnfury>
stock plane parts suck camels through a straw
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I think your body is fine in terms of length, but if you want to extend, proc. struct is the way to go
<awang>
I'll give it a shot and see if it helps
<awang>
Hypergolic_Skunk: For the elevator construction, you mean get rid of the white part on the control surfaces?
<awang>
And could you clarify what you mean about the vertical stabilizer? I'm having trouble visualizing what you're trying to get at
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yes, and lengthen the chord of the horizontal stabilizer
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ok, let me make a screenshot
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
(chord is my new favorite word)
<awang>
Jeeze, the wings need to move far back
<awang>
The pictures of real-life Bonazas were misleading :(
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ok, cannot find the Bonanza-creation I was thinking off
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
basically, what I mean is that you have no transition at all between your vertical stabilizer and your fuselage
<awang>
Hmmm
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
you could add a proc wing, make its base root width rather wide, it's tip width less so
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
and then attach the actual vertical stabilizer on top of that
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
that'll give you some stability on the long axis, I think
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
know what I mean? or should I quickly build it and take a screen?
<awang>
I think I know?
<awang>
Hold on
<awang>
Let me try it out
<soundnfury>
awang: the real-life Bonanzas probably had heavier engines.
<soundnfury>
Also, make sure you've not got any crew selected to be in it
<soundnfury>
because I think the "every part is 100kg heavier" bug affects FAR
<NathanKell>
remove the kerbals in the editor
<awang>
Oh wow
<awang>
Removing the Kerbals did it
<soundnfury>
remove kerbab! editor stronk!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
lol?
<awang>
The plane looks horrendously misshapen, but it's stable
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ignore the incorrectly sized elevator, I messed around with another craft
<awang>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Yep, that's what I did
<awang>
Well, sort of
<awang>
Didn't clip the lower part into the tail
<awang>
But same idea
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
when it comes to planes, I don't mind clipping with the fuselage, because you don't have the tools that people have IRL
<Bornholio>
pap mass spec part cannot store science, won't fire from [X] science here and now, haven't checked with scientisit. First photo box won do those either, scientisit could not remove data
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
also I stopped using the Bonanza engine, because I really cannot be bothered waiting 20 minutes to reach 4km ^ it's 1951 after all, why not put an He-111 engine on there :P
<soundnfury>
Hypergolic_Skunk: merlin stronk, united kingdom best kingdom