<leudaimon>
wb99999999, I think people below 30 will live to see orbital resorts
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 opened pull request #761: Second Generation Crew Science (Developmental...New-Crew-Science) https://git.io/v5tIF
<leudaimon>
not significantly more expansive than a travel to a resort in a different continent now
<leudaimon>
\o/ Pap
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v5tIj
<github>
RP-0/Developmental e28406c Pap: Merge pull request #761 from KSP-RO/New-Crew-Science...
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 deleted New-Crew-Science at 43be0c1: https://git.io/v5tLe
<Pap>
Alright leudaimon you can pull straight from dev
<leudaimon>
ok Pap
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<wb99999999>
they really need to sort out a sky hook now... it take at least 50 years from a cheap launch method to a full-blown orbital industry
<wb99999999>
I am born too early to live past 100, probably
<leudaimon>
I don't expect life expetancy to go beyond 100 in this century
<wb99999999>
the first person to live past 120 has already been born, they say
<wb99999999>
maybe it'll go past 90 in this century?
<leudaimon>
well, people have been living beyond 100 since always... I just think all the fuzz about increased life expetancy is a statistical misunderstanding
<leudaimon>
most increase in mean life span is due to lower child death
<wb99999999>
you are right
<wb99999999>
you can happily reach 60 if you can make to adulthood even before modern medicine
<wb99999999>
given you don't die in a battle or contract some plague
<leudaimon>
exactly
<wb99999999>
but again people do die in battle and in plague a lot back then...
<leudaimon>
much less now
<leudaimon>
much of the difference between countries is also due to war and urban violence
<leudaimon>
senescence is too much of a constant in animals to be easily reversed by technology... it's not like a disease you find a cure to
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<wb99999999>
It's the trade off for being able to be so complex and active isn't it
<wb99999999>
of course something just spend time floating on the surface of the ocean and photosynthesizing would, if evolution calls, live much longer...
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<Bornholio>
looks like it all works pap
<Pap>
Excellent
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<SpecimenSpiff>
o/
<Pap>
o/
<Bornholio>
"Slot available" experiment is needed in list becasue reason?
<Pap>
Unfortunately yes Bornholio (I might have a way to remove it, but not positive)
<Pap>
SpecimenSpiff: So that could be used to force you to not launch Polar from the Cape?
<SpecimenSpiff>
yep
<Bornholio>
not a biggy just randomly placed, will experiments drop off the list after the are completed max times or is there some indicator to that effect?
<Pap>
Bornholio: No and No, I have asked the mod maker about it and there is no way to do it (I am not happy about that)
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<Bornholio>
maybe something like the tooling section can be added? Last weird question if i doe theses around the moon will they fire a higher multiplier
<Bornholio>
I do these
<Pap>
These specific experiments are all limited to Earth orbit only
<Pap>
I will be adding Moon orbit experiments Soon (TM)
<Bornholio>
Any experiment container parts other than pods?
<Pap>
Not as of yet, but this can be infinitely expanded upon. I want to have telescopes that generate different type of Resource for a different type of experiment, etc
<Pap>
I am up for all ideas
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<leudaimon>
Pap, about the tell I sent you yesterday about the ion mass spectometer, I read the wiki and realised the intention is for it to be similar to the camera experiment... in that case, the first transmit which is currently is possible is a bug, right?
<Pap>
You were able to transmit it leudaimon ?
<leudaimon>
also, is there some way to make it repeatable with requiring return and not require a science container? I think it would be more realistic in this case
<leudaimon>
iirc the first time I made the experiment I managed to transmit
<leudaimon>
then it became return only
<Pap>
That is very strange if that is the case and sounds like just a bug (nothing I can fix)
<Pap>
I don't think there is a way (through stock) to have it be repeatable
<Bornholio>
what about 3 shot container like biosampler
<leudaimon>
yeah, that's what I thought in both cases...
<Pap>
The other question, is, it is a little confusing for players as it stands right now as it is one of the only ones that doesn't transmit (and Level 2 transmits), should I just allow it to transmit?
<leudaimon>
Bornholio is more knowledgeable about realism, but I don't see why a thermometer would be transmitable and not this experiment
<Bornholio>
early experiments are more likely to be no transmit since communications improve by multiple orders of magnitiude in a few decades.
<Pap>
In RL, these were not able to actually use electricity to separate the ions (the whole point of mass spectrometry), so they had to be returned
<Bornholio>
emulsions and materail defects are used to characterise ion mass and energy
<leudaimon>
what is recorded in those experiments?
<Pap>
Bornholio: The Bio sample cannot store 3, can it?
<leudaimon>
nope
<Bornholio>
it could if you set it up like the DMagic one
<Bornholio>
the rover arm one that only works in atmospher landed
<Bornholio>
and has to touch the ground
<Pap>
Bornholio: Yeah, that is what I tried to do with the original science plan, it just didn't work
<Bornholio>
what breaks?
<leudaimon>
yeah, allowing these return experiments to hold more than 1 instance would be nice... do science containers allow some restriction in the type of experiment allowed inside?
<Bornholio>
only one of 1 type/biome per container
<Bornholio>
so an ecc stores pretty much all early nonrepeatables, because they are mostly per biome or more limited
<Pap>
I could add a ModuleScienceContainer to the actual part
<leudaimon>
I thought about that, but maybe too permissive, especially in the very low ion mass spectometer... people would use it as film buckets
<leudaimon>
s/very low/very low mass
<Qboid>
leudaimon meant to say: I thought about that, but maybe too permissive, especially in the very low mass ion mass spectometer... people would use it as film buckets
<Bornholio>
maybe an ecc striped of probe capability but avialbe first science node, as i tye over a cat
<Pap>
I agree, I think the best bet is the player has to use more than one Ion Spec like we do with Bio Samples
<leudaimon>
it's just soo expensive... and biome specific
<leudaimon>
but we will have to live with it
<Pap>
The expensive science parts will become a trend that we have to get used to I think
<Bornholio>
compared to tank tooling 2+m not much :P
<Pap>
TRUTH
<leudaimon>
lol, didn't get there yet regarding tanks
<leudaimon>
i'm always less worried about prices than build time, and tooling does not affect that
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<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v5t3T
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 6e22b07 Pap: Bio Sample Transmit at 25%...
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<leudaimon>
would anyone explain what weird physics would cause the rocket to be in this position? http://imgur.com/0tiREE9
<SpecimenSpiff>
leudaimon meant to say "would anyone explain what weird physX would cause the rocket to..."
<leudaimon>
lol
<leudaimon>
stable perfectly horizontal is too weird
<SpecimenSpiff>
the picture doesnt convey that its stable
<SpecimenSpiff>
its bizarre enough it would swing that high, but stable is REALLY weird
<UmbralRaptor>
If it's *really* heavy on the parachute end…?
<leudaimon>
it's probably fairly heavy in the parachute end, but considering most of the parachute mass is the parachute itself... and even though, this pencil shaped thing should be vertical
<leudaimon>
Pap, is the bug in which unlock costs do not apply still around?
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<Pap>
leudaimon: AFAIK it does not exist still
<leudaimon>
hmm, I'll pay more attention next time I unlock something, I thought it didn't apply now
<ferram4>
leudaimon, it's a really small sounding rocket, right? It basically means that it makes a lot of drag in crossflow compared to the parachutes, so yeah, that's actually not too far off.
<ferram4>
I think it's part of why entire sounding rockets don't tend to get recovered unless there's a really big parachute.
<leudaimon>
really ferram4? looks so weird... the parachute adjusted for it was fairly small, even though it's not so tiny, almost 4m iirc
<SpecimenSpiff>
leudaimon, pretty sure nathankell figured that it was only the ecm parts that had that bug, and I assume he fixed it shortly thereafter
<ferram4>
Lots of aero stuff is actually really weird.
<leudaimon>
ah ok, so I probably had more money than I thought SpecimenSpiff
<ferram4>
And if the cylinder is pretty narrow, then it'll be a laminar flow (Cd ~= 1.2) rather than the more common turbulent flow (Cd ~= 0.3) which can really add a lot more drag.
<leudaimon>
yeah ferram4, and I didn't usually recover these small sounding rockets before rolling costs making V-2 so slow to build
<ferram4>
Particularly at low speeds it'll do things like that.
<leudaimon>
I see...
<leudaimon>
SpecimenSpiff, my parachute is in the top, it is the actual nosecone, because I'm being cheaty... the maxtemp of parachutes is currently higher than tanks and nosecones both
<SpecimenSpiff>
nice
<SpecimenSpiff>
I'm mimicking aerobee with chute down below payload with a decoupler to drop the empty propulsion section
<SpecimenSpiff>
makes a huge difference in how it reenters
<SpecimenSpiff>
and once again, my playlist comes up with perfect ksp music. hopefully this career will be reach the appropriate point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHIo6qwJarI
<leudaimon>
yeah, the whole rocket reenters too hot and explodes even with a 150km apo now
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<SpecimenSpiff>
Interesting, no pilot trraining required for bonanza
<SpecimenSpiff>
I guess it makes sense to assume any astronaut can fly that
<SpecimenSpiff>
Im not sure what I did wrong with my Bonanza last night, but I couldnt maintain airspeed with the bonanza engine, I had to go with the rolls royce to be able to climb out
<SpecimenSpiff>
and even then, it doesnt seem very powerful
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<SpecimenSpiff>
WOOT, took all my kerbals up for a tour, got tons of records, some science, and knocked out some x-plane contracts. and i even landed on the runway without needing chutes
<SpecimenSpiff>
now I can go back to flying rockets, like god intended
<xShadowx|2>
if god intended man to fly rockets, we'd have had em sooner, without wrestling with a loon first. god dont want you to have rockets, you gotta take the rockets and invade the stars like a good conquering species ;p
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<Maxsimal>
Probus: Don't we have one of those in RO already?
<Maxsimal>
Probus: 303 SL, 333 Vac
<Probus>
Cool. Didn't know that.
<Maxsimal>
I'm not at game right now, can't tell you which mod it's from, but I'm pretty sure I've seen it in the tech tree.
<Maxsimal>
That article is real crap though
<Probus>
Its the first one I've seen
<Maxsimal>
*shrug* Well, it's pretty poorly written. In the same paragraph they're saying the rocket will lower launch costs, they have it have a cost to orbit of $50,000 per kilo - way more than most company. Among other glaring 'the author doesn't know what he's talking about' issues
<Pap>
We for sure have the Rutherford engine in the game
<Pap>
It is either from Forgotten Real Engines or Niche Parts
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<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* I was getting a constant log spam last night when switching between scenes: [MagiCore] Tried to parse a non-double value: [SN] [MagiCore] Tried to parse a non-double value: [SP]
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Bornholio>
sad part is that the F22 could just mount the MADL translater itself with minimal range loss, but its a retired platform so airforce won't spend the money on an "airframe conversion" so they will spend more on half assed solution.
<Rokker>
eh, thats how the cookie crumbles
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<Pap>
How did the interview go Bornholio ?
<Bornholio>
2nd interview next thursday, looks like a good place
<Pap>
Good to hear!
<Bornholio>
the ladders need a quick ECM going through they are all 500 funds .smirk
<Bornholio>
step away as my aircraft is loading launch, get back and it has rolled a kilometer back
<Bornholio>
yeah for revert trampoline launches
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Bornholio: hence why I started using launch-clamps for planes :P
<UmbralRaptor>
Trampolines are supposed to be for rockets?
<Slavi>
I agree with that, Pap - for me the capsules will come first, then the engines, then the panels, and lastly the tanks if I find I love this stuff
<Pap>
Sounds great, let me know if you have any questions. I should be able to help, but if not, there will be someone that can
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<Slavi>
things are already going swimmingly :3
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<Slavi>
The primary reason I want to do this rescaling is that I really like how modular Tantares is - while Raidern
<Slavi>
Raidernick: has such amazing models,
<Slavi>
they aren't very customizable.
<Pap>
For sure, Raidernick's stuff is great for recreations, but Tantares allows some alternate creations
<Slavi>
I underestimated how long this will take. I'll come back to report on my progress at some point - thanks for the pep talk, Pap
<Pap>
Good luck and have fun!
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<SpecimenSpiff>
let me know if you have any design thoughts before I get in too deep
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<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: appears to be a 404
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<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Starwaster left a message for you in #RO [23.08.2017 19:21:39]: "Sorry I haven't been around, I've been doing some further work on the insulation system and I think we need to split the GUI up into several parts: First, MLI should be configurable by itself and what I'm doing with it affects the entire part via part.skinInternalConductionMult. Second, if the tank is a Dewar then it uses a diffe
<Qboid>
rent transfer model. So instead of having to be either MLI or Dewar it can be both."
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Starwaster left a message for you in #RO [23.08.2017 19:22:09]: "The other thing is that Dewars and SOFI should be on a per-tank basis rather than a per-part basis, can we do that?"
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [24.08.2017 12:54:44]: "I was getting a constant log spam last night when switching between scenes: [MagiCore] Tried to parse a non-double value: [SN] [MagiCore] Tried to parse a non-double value: [SP]"
<NathanKell|WORK>
o/
<soundnfury>
^^ I've seen that MagiCore error too
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Are you on the latest KCT dll? It should have fixed that.
<NathanKell|WORK>
I had an issue where I hadn't added those variables to the variables dict one time the code was being checked. I thought I fixed it.
* xShadowx
opens ksp and tries to decide what to do tonight
<SpecimenSpiff>
soundnfury, odd, I can click on the link and go to the doc, and it shows as shared with anyone who has the link
<SpecimenSpiff>
I started work on that last night, should be fun
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: it is very possible that I forgot to update it. I'll test tonight.
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: ok, that is a different URL to the one you gave before, but "Sorry, the file you have requested does not exist."
<NathanKell|WORK>
worked for me SpecimenSpiff
<Starwaster>
how far outside the flight corridor?
<NathanKell|WORK>
o/ Starwaster
<SpecimenSpiff>
thats the kind of thing I need to determine and get opinions on
<soundnfury>
ok, well, Google Docs has always hated me for inexplicable reasons, so feh
<NathanKell|WORK>
Starwaster: We can set up some kind of UI for each tank I think
<Starwaster>
well if you go by RL.... I think AoA would trigger long before deviating from the actual corridor
<SpecimenSpiff>
soundnfury, since you cant read the doc, its a proposal for a range safety mod. blow up your vessel if you go outside flight corridor, etc
<Starwaster>
something like just a few degrees asn't it? For Saturn?
<NathanKell|WORK>
To start with I'd just do azimuth limits, SpecimenSpiff
<SpecimenSpiff>
thats what I want working first, yes
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: I've been wishing for such a thing for some time, so \o/
<Starwaster>
NathanKell|WORK would it be too terribly expensive to change part.SkinInternalConductionMult every frame?
<SpecimenSpiff>
can I programatically range safety a booster after staging? eg call abort, capsule zooms off, then we switch focus to back to the booster, blow it, switch back to capsule?
<NathanKell|WORK>
not expensive at all
<NathanKell|WORK>
it's just a float
<NathanKell|WORK>
SpecimenSpiff: why range safety it? Use the 'Set to debris on stage" funciton on its avionics units.
<Starwaster>
ok
<SpecimenSpiff>
ok that works, but no pretty splosion
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: ping?
<Starwaster>
he wants explody bits
<Starwaster>
besides, lots of exploding parts equals Kerbals freaking in fear in their portraits and IVA
<SpecimenSpiff>
the biggest question I need to resolve at first is how to know whether I'm launching from the pad or the runway
<SpecimenSpiff>
or some other way to not enforce a flight corridor on aircraft
<Starwaster>
why not just check if it's a plane? That's a craft type now
<Starwaster>
if that's not enough then you'll just have to check coords
<SpecimenSpiff>
I didnt know that
<Starwaster>
yup
<SpecimenSpiff>
although I could go more logical: if has a lot of mass, or has explody fuels on board, I dont care what it is, it needs to follow a flight corridor
<NathanKell|WORK>
that's not at all a reliable check tho
<NathanKell|WORK>
because most command parts will still set vessel type to capsule
<NathanKell|WORK>
and we can't rely on the player setting craft type
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: I'd just make it an optional thing to arm the AFTS; rely on the honour system
<Starwaster>
I like that idea better
<SpecimenSpiff>
My first thought was described in the document, check lat/lon vs facility.launchpad when the scene loads
<Bornholio>
look at biome
<Starwaster>
oh I jut remembered something... the launch pad has its own biome
<Starwaster>
doh, like bornholio said
<SpecimenSpiff>
does that hold in rss?
<SpecimenSpiff>
I thought it didnt
<NathanKell|WORK>
it does
<Starwaster>
you could also raycast down below the craft and see what you hit
<SpecimenSpiff>
well im just looking for the easiest reliable answer
<SpecimenSpiff>
biome is clearly easy than checking coordinates if it works reliably
<SpecimenSpiff>
what would be the correct "you have left the range, enjoy the rest of the flight" determination? A certain stage, distance from pad, altitude? or make it configurable
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: I'd say speed
<soundnfury>
i.e. "fast enough that if it comes back down it'll burn into tiny tiny pieces that won't land on people"
<soundnfury>
(although you might still get fined for littering by an Australian township)
<SpecimenSpiff>
quick wiki read last night for the us program implied it was when you were no longer using the LV stages. But I assume that's not always the answer
<SpecimenSpiff>
yeah, you could go with a complex mass/speed/alt formula to determine "it no longer matters"
<SpecimenSpiff>
which would then cover small sounding rockets without having to turn it off or have special rules
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: but the US has the good fortune to have ranges totally over ocean
<soundnfury>
I don't think the same applies to (say) Palmachim
<SpecimenSpiff>
the doc I read said they maintained range safety operations until it was high and fast enough that it wasnt a threat to Africa
<soundnfury>
shirley the IIP must cross land though, even if not populated
<SpecimenSpiff>
I understand that the Indian launch site has a really freaky corridor with a mandatory dogleg
<soundnfury>
I refuse to believe that it snakes along the Med. and through the straits of Gib, that's crazy
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<Bornholio>
that range safety button GRRR
<wb99999999>
holy crap they launched another F9
<wb99999999>
how many rockets are they making???
<SpecimenSpiff>
lots
<soundnfury>
wb99999999: there's another one in a fortnight, carrying the X37
<SpecimenSpiff>
last I heard, they can make about 100 merlins a year, and that's their main production constraint
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<wb99999999>
I didn't even know that F9 has a big enough fairing for the X-37
<soundnfury>
F9 is bigger than it looks
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: that's ok, they don't have to make so many new ones now ;)
<Bornholio>
if they get to recovering second stage
<soundnfury>
a few years down the line, probably most of their factory floor will be making second stages…
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: I reckon they won't be able to recover F9 or even FH S2 economically; that'll have to wait until mini-ITS or whatever that plan turns into
<soundnfury>
(I'd love to be proved wrong though!)
<Bornholio>
elon is willing
<wb99999999>
recovering S2 is really no good...
<SpecimenSpiff>
there is actually an interesting economic issue as they start reusing more and building less, they start to lose mass manufacturing bonuses and per-unit replacement cost goes up
<Bornholio>
nice thing about him is that he's ok with taking a significant loss on development capital
<Bornholio>
one recovered engine is significant improvement on qualifying the reliability, like the RS-25's
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: yeah, the problem with reusables is always that they need flight rate to go up
<soundnfury>
but it looks like SpaceX is managing to make that happen
<soundnfury>
it helps that their 'standing army' is small and so costs are low
<soundnfury>
(the contrast to Shuttle operations is stark)
<Bornholio>
helps that there is only one chief and not a whole senate full
<SpecimenSpiff>
I still want to know how they plan to get even mini-its parts out of hawthorne
<SpecimenSpiff>
any bigger than f9, and there is a highway overpass between the plant and the coast that they cant pass
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: airlift maybe?
<Starwaster>
wb99999999 Do not question The Elon
<soundnfury>
(it works for wide-body jet parts after all)
<wb99999999>
OMG it's the real starwaster
<Starwaster>
WHERE???
<soundnfury>
Look behind you, a three-headed starwaster!
<Starwaster>
STOP IT QUICK BEFORE IT GETS AWAY
<SpecimenSpiff>
the ideal answer would be "It's a reusable rocket, who wants a quick ride from Torrance to Florida?"
<Bornholio>
thats dirty, don't touch it
<SpecimenSpiff>
But I can't imagine that being allowed
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: I think the operational costs would be prohibitive, never mind the safety issues
<Starwaster>
it's weird how many coding ideas I have while scooping catshit....
<Bornholio>
I think that larger parts will be a new plant near brownsville
<wb99999999>
and the next morning Elon decided to build a fleet of heavy lifting airship...
<SpecimenSpiff>
most likely, it's just when they announced they were going for "mini its" one of the benefits they mentioned was that it could then still be built in torrance
<SpecimenSpiff>
maybe the boring co tunnels will be large enough
<wb99999999>
you know what, having airships to transfer large rocket parts actually sounds like a good idea despite I said it as a joke...
<Starwaster>
btw did you know that Von Braun wrote a novel called Project Mars in which the leader of Mars is known as The Elon?
<soundnfury>
Starwaster: yes, this is well known in the #SpaceX / r/spacex community
<UmbralRaptor>
^
<Slavi>
II got a second quick question for you fine folks - is there a way to easily prune out all the extraneous parts to make my dev install load as fast as possible?
<soundnfury>
wb99999999: I think the envelope size would be prohibitive
<Starwaster>
back in the 50s wasnt it?
<soundnfury>
especially assuming helium as the lift gas
<wb99999999>
isn't rocket parts just bulk but not so heavy when empty?