<Rokker>
NathanKell: did you hear the Paul Allen news
<NathanKell>
No
<ferram4>
He found the wreck of Indianapolis.
<NathanKell>
Oooh, cool!
<ferram4>
She's actually in pretty decent condition, at least corrosion-wise. Also, too far down to be at risk of illegal salvage.
<awang>
Why is the X-1 so expensive?
<awang>
Rokker: Well, TIL. Thought most launches went off relatively smoothly like on the east coast
<Rokker>
awang: because they are only sounding rockets you don't hear about it a lot
<Rokker>
NathanKell: I hope he leaves it mostly intact tho
<awang>
Ah, makes sense
<Rokker>
awang: as for major launches I can only think of 2 in the last decade, spacex and orbital atk
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: I'd've thought we would, for realism, but idk
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Arguments both ways I think? Realism wise
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<NathanKell|Twitch>
i.e. “upgrading” the pad complex would be building all new pads
<NathanKell|Twitch>
but still, tying up the pad workforce and mission control teams
<awang>
Do boat owners get penalized for delaying a launch?
<Bornholio>
the fines are pathetic
<Bornholio>
and general only apply withing 12 miles or some such number of the coast IIRC
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: I'm getting drunk in a VFW hall and they have a brochure thingy called "Agent Orange and you"
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<awang>
Uhh
<awang>
I'm getting hugely different costs for the X-1 depending on what the root part is
<Rokker>
awang: then stop doing that
<awang>
If the cockpit is the root, cockpit + 2 tanks + XLR11 is 2975 funds
<awang>
If the tank immediately behind the cockpit is root, cost is 977 funds
<awang>
Well, more accurately any part besides the cockpit
<awang>
Rokker: But exploits?
<Rokker>
awang: then do that
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<awang>
But it's not realistic?
<Rokker>
awang: then don't do that
<Bornholio>
you can also exploit if you want, by rush building, the editing the craft save with no changes and rush build again . Oh no scary exploit!
<awang>
....
<Bornholio>
Are you seeing base cost change or just rollout?
<awang>
Both
<awang>
I think
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<awang>
Rollout cost changes, and the cost shown in the editor changes
<Bornholio>
I'll try and duplicate it once i get x-1 again
<Pap>
How is the science system working for everyone?
<NathanKell|Twitch>
o/ Pap
<NathanKell|Twitch>
seems fine to me!
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Haven’t tried Ion yet
<NathanKell|Twitch>
did try film
<Pap>
Ah, you are streaming again? On my way over
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: you
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<Bornholio>
what makes the mirror/radial parts loose being linked for control surfaces?
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<wb99999999>
Hmmm...I just noticed that increased upper stage performance actually benefit payload to a lower energy orbit
<wb99999999>
while improvements in lower stages benefit payload to higher orbit more
<wb99999999>
It's so tangled and all over itself
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<NathanKell|Twitch>
Pap: Is it intended that Ion is recovery-only?
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<NathanKell>
ferram4: Vega’s about a third the mass of Titan I-2 IIRC
<NathanKell>
It’s a Vanguard first stage engine with restart and a vac nozze
<NathanKell>
nozzle*
<NathanKell>
And ~3 minutes burn time IIRC
<blowfish>
3:15 I think
<ferram4>
Hmm. Maybe it'll work?
<ferram4>
Make the sizes the same as real life and you'll have a nice 10' 8' 10' launcher too.
<NathanKell>
Hah right Vega was 10ft
<NathanKell>
>.>
<NathanKell>
Yeah, my Vega will be 8ft for sure.
<NathanKell>
It *does* make a nice upper for Thor, blowfish, just not enough oomph for 1t NIMLE
<NathanKell>
s/MLE/MLEO/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: It *does* make a nice upper for Thor, blowfish, just not enough oomph for 1t NIMLEO
<blowfish>
I did manage to put a ~1.8t capsule in orbit with it in sandbox, but (1) I probably overburned the engines by about 10s each, (2) Early tanks are proabably a bit heavier, and (3) I needed 2 Castors even for that
<NathanKell>
Hmm. What variant LR79?
<NathanKell>
But yeah, 2 Castors sounds about right
<blowfish>
good question, let me look
<blowfish>
LR79-NA-9
<NathanKell>
Ah, the uprated one
<NathanKell>
Although by the time of Vega, that’d be the one used
<blowfish>
Vega also uses balloon tanks which probably drives up the cost a bit
<NathanKell>
Ah
<NathanKell>
Yeah
<NathanKell>
And also drives the performance *way* up
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<Gus>
Okay, two things real quick
<Gus>
One, I was thinking about making some procedural parts & fairing textures
<Gus>
so I'd like suggestions, if anyone has any
<Gus>
and the other was about not being able to do simulatons in RP-0
<Gus>
the pre build sims
<Bornholio>
KRASH
<Bornholio>
it was pulled out of KCT a while back
<Gus>
Oh, really?
<Gus>
Guess I need to go install that
<Bornholio>
Scrapyard if you want the old recoverable parts used component
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<wb99999999>
NathanKell: can you think of an hydrolox engine for heavy mid-upper stage usage that's in between of a HUGE J-2 or air start SSME and an expander?
<Bornholio>
several smaller Hydrolox engines any particular era?
<wb99999999>
ICPS is just a modified DCSS isn't it?
<ferram4>
Although technically, the LR-87-LH2 is on the same scale as the original J-2 specs.
<wb99999999>
exactly
<wb99999999>
It's actually a bit better expect lower thrust
<ferram4>
I don't believe there are any hydrolox engines in the 200-600 kN range though.
<wb99999999>
You guys did put RL-60 in RO though
<wb99999999>
nobody seems to notice it
<ferram4>
But that's also very far along tech-wise, IIRC.
<wb99999999>
yeah it's just a development piece
<ferram4>
Oh, do we have an LE-5B in there?
<wb99999999>
I think FRE got it covered
<ferram4>
137 - 144 kN
<ferram4>
Oh, here's one.
<ferram4>
Do we have a config for the BE-3?
<wb99999999>
I don't think so
<ferram4>
Ah, shame. 490 kN tapoff cycle.
<wb99999999>
We do have BE-4, but only in the dual engine model
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<wb99999999>
still good enough to build a ULA Vulcan replica
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<wb99999999>
Man, a 490kN hydrolox engine would be just too perfect
<wb99999999>
I can't even think about it
<ferram4>
Not the BE-4. The BE-3.
<ferram4>
Different engine.
<ferram4>
Right, whoops.
* ferram4
cannot read when doing config work
<wb99999999>
just a reminder that the BE-3 we have is a SL engine
<wb99999999>
Blue Origin is working on a vacuum version for New Glenn
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<Bornholio>
when the smoke an mirrors clear i'll be happy to see it
<NathanKell>
ferram4: RL60?
<NathanKell>
AIES has it
<NathanKell>
wb99999999 ^
<ferram4>
That was mentioned though. But it's just a dev thing.
<wb99999999>
Yes sir
<wb99999999>
RLA have is as well
<wb99999999>
just without a RealPlume config
<wb99999999>
and BTW why have we not a sea level J-2? With the sea level M-1 I think this is justified by itself
<NathanKell>
Ah sorry
<NathanKell>
J-2T is the sea level variant :P
<wb99999999>
What?
<wb99999999>
I thought it's the plug nozzle
<NathanKell>
Yes
<wb99999999>
So the sea level J-2 IS the plug nozzle J-2?
<NathanKell>
Yeah they didn't bother making a sea level non plug nozzle
<wb99999999>
what about the INT-19 concept? Is it using the plug nozzle as well?
<ferram4>
NathanKell, so, I got to see a schematic of the LR-87 turbopump and I can see why they converted it to run on hydrolox. It's already got gear reduction from the turbine for each pump (and each pump spinning at different rates) even for kerolox and storables.
<ferram4>
The LR-79 (and 89) and LR-105 both have gear reduction from the turbine, but a common pump shaft.
<ferram4>
F-1 has a everything on a common shaft. Also looks like the Merlin 1 has a common shaft as well.
<NathanKell>
ah, huh!
<ferram4>
Oh, and the RL-10 has the fuel pump on the same shaft as the turbine and gear reduction for the ox pump
<ferram4>
Also, 2-stage centrifugal for its fuel pump. Very strange.
<Bornholio>
pumping coolwhip
<ferram4>
Hydrogen is evil to pump.
<Bornholio>
yup, good thing rover did all the hard work
<ferram4>
The J-2 pumps 5.5 times as much mass of LOX, but the fuel pump takes 5x the power.
<ferram4>
Because density says fuck you.
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Was that an NTR project?
<NathanKell>
I’m having a brainfart
<Bornholio>
yes, you know the one kenedy asked congress for :)
<Bornholio>
oh wait they always cut that part of the speach out
<NathanKell>
:D
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<wb99999999>
is there any p-fed engine that doesn't use hypergols?
<UmbralRaptor>
Do monopropellant designs count?
<Bornholio>
pumping air into a water rocket counts right?
<UmbralRaptor>
wikiality claims that the Kestrel was pressure fed.
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<soundnfury>
wb99999999: XLR11 is p-fed ethalox, at least according to RO
<Bornholio>
Not to be confused with XLR-11 (drug).
<wb99999999>
I'll read about it a bit and see
<wb99999999>
and isn't most monopropellant designs uses fuels that can be used as a component of a hypergolic combination ?
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<blowfish>
depends
<blowfish>
nitrogen has been used as a monopropellant but it isn't burned so it wouldn't be that useful as a bipropellant
<blowfish>
but the main ones that are actually burned, HTP and hydrazine, can both be used with another propellant
<blowfish>
HTP with a fuel, and hydrazine with an oxidizer
<wb99999999>
puff. cold gases are so inert I almost forgot about them
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<wb99999999>
but then again...they're less "propellant" and more "reaction mass"
<blowfish>
if it has pressure you can feed it through a nozzle
<wb99999999>
not strictly of course
<blowfish>
I think SpaceX uses nitrogen for the Falcon 9's thrusters on both stages
<wb99999999>
You're right
<wb99999999>
that big puff of gas when they orient the booster for boost back
<Bornholio>
surprised they do, but its the most reliable
<blowfish>
it's also cheap to handle, no hazmat suits etc
<wb99999999>
it's safe and non-reactive
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<wb99999999>
so they don't have to clean up anything after the booster landed
<blowfish>
if anyone would accept a worse mass fraction for cheaper launch costs, it's them
<Bornholio>
if they actually do recoverable 2nd stage they wont be
<ProjectThoth>
whom'st are we talking about?
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<wb99999999>
nah...recovering the second stage is just dumb
<ProjectThoth>
S2 recovery is, arguably, easier.
<wb99999999>
how so? I thought you'd need reentry shielding for that
<blowfish>
easier? You're re-entering from orbital speed with an engine that doesn't work at sea level
<blowfish>
possibly even higher than orbital speed, like GTO
<wb99999999>
They are probably better off just build a shuttle or even a SSTO if they're trying to reuse everything
<ProjectThoth>
It's generally smaller than S1, and thus much easier to manage.
<ProjectThoth>
I mean, the Shuttle was a recoverable second stage, when you think about it. :P
<wb99999999>
And therefore WAY more expensive
<wb99999999>
The trick of Falcon 9 is in how short the first stage burn is
<wb99999999>
they put all the deltaV in the second stage so the first stage don't go too far or too fast
<ProjectThoth>
But the Shuttle was also an overbuilt mess.
<wb99999999>
compare it with an Atlas V witch have a 4 minute first stage, Falcon 9'
<ProjectThoth>
uh
<wb99999999>
sorry
<ProjectThoth>
I mean, I get what you're saying, but that doesn't make S1 reuse any easier.
<wb99999999>
I hit enter by accident
<wb99999999>
It does
<ProjectThoth>
In a world without retropropulsion, S2 reuse is easier.
<wb99999999>
Well I mean... If you look at it in an isolated case, maybe yes.
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<wb99999999>
just put a heat shield and some grid fin on the thing and have it glide back to launch site and parachute it down
<blowfish>
grid fins have to heat resistant though
<wb99999999>
but that is neither cheap, nor convenient, nor effective
<ProjectThoth>
Grid fins are overblown.
<wb99999999>
you carry dead weight all the way to GTO, and endure a high orbit reentry
<wb99999999>
the thing will probably need massive refurbishing to be used again
<blowfish>
you have to stabilize somehow
<blowfish>
an inflatable heat shield is another option
<blowfish>
althogh that's really still emerging technology
<wb99999999>
It's doable... just not much use
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<wb99999999>
SpaceX recover their first stage booster not only because they can use them again, also because they don't have build another one
<wb99999999>
I know these two sounded like the same thing
<wb99999999>
but if you look at the global launch schedule you'll notice how many Falcon 9s are being launched
<wb99999999>
not only they build them faster, they also use recovered boosters
<blowfish>
well, I think they've only relaunched 2 at this point
<wb99999999>
saved time = saved cost
<wb99999999>
hmm, that's right
<ProjectThoth>
Aerospike on S2, use that as a heat shield.
<ProjectThoth>
Economical, maybe not, but arguably more doable than RTLS for most of the history of spaceflight.
<wb99999999>
I think a heat shield alone is not quite enough...
<wb99999999>
reentry plasma will heat up the entire craft
<wb99999999>
so you need to apply some insulation and protection on top of the heat shield
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<ProjectThoth>
Aspect ratio of upper stages is generally low.
<ProjectThoth>
I dunno, I just see it as infinitely easier to recover upper stages on target than lower ones.
<wb99999999>
Maybe, but I think a heavily shielded, self containing upper stage/reentry vehicle won't go very far in terms of delta V
<wb99999999>
remember all upper stages are designed to do is to boost payload high and far
<Rokker>
NathanKell|AFK: are u alive
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: dude
<Rokker>
stop
<Rokker>
just
<Rokker>
stop
<Rokker>
there are reasonable ideas and unreasonable ones
<ProjectThoth>
Rokker: I guess it's margaritas tonight.
<ProjectThoth>
Because man, have you got the salt and bitterness down pat.
<ProjectThoth>
:P
<Rokker>
and a 2nd stage aerospike/heatshield is unreasonable
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: im more than drunk and depressed enough already, tyvm
<ProjectThoth>
Aerospikes were considered J2 upgrade paths.
<wb99999999>
Engine nozzles are not designed to withstand reentry heat
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: I MIGHT BE DRUNK BUT I HAVENT FORGOTTEN MY AEROSPACE HISTORY KNOQWLEDGE
<Rokker>
fuck you caps lock
<ProjectThoth>
Right, but it's a pretty minimal upgrade path from aerospike to heat shield + aerospike combo, especially if you're considering active cooling.
<wb99999999>
but...but...
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<wb99999999>
you're talking VTVL SSTO level of engineering challenges here
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<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: might I point something out about your point on the J-2?
<ProjectThoth>
Rokker: sure
<wb99999999>
and there's a reason that nobody have ever build on of that...
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: while the J-2 may have been an upper stage engine
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: Doesn't have to be VTVL tho.
<Rokker>
the J-2 aerospike was only ever seriously considered for main engine
<wb99999999>
But your idea coincide with the requirement of your typical VTVL SSTO concepts in the 60s and 70s
<wb99999999>
which is not very doable...
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: Upper stage =/= SSTO.
<Rokker>
wb99999999: he does this a lot
<wb99999999>
Rokker: XD
<ProjectThoth>
I don't see the hangup.
<wb99999999>
The problem is you're not going anywhere with such a configuration
<wb99999999>
no cost saved, no payload increased, no turn-over time shortened
<Qboid>
Rokker: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: The Shuttle was design by committee. It did a lot of things pretty well, but it didn't ace specific things.
<ProjectThoth>
It was an okay reusable launch vehicle. It was an okay cargo launch vehicle. It was an okay manned vehicle. But it wasn't the best in any one of those categories.
<ProjectThoth>
The SSMEs, for example, are probably the greatest engines ever developed. But they're absolutely shit at being rapidly reused.
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<wb99999999>
Yo NathanKell: I really don't think J-2-SL and J-2T is the same engine...
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<NathanKell|Twitch>
wb99999999 Ah I forgot about J-2-SL
<NathanKell|Twitch>
we should config it then
<wb99999999>
You guys made me question my sanity for the whole afternoon by saying that they're the same engine XD
<wb99999999>
I was like "no way those two person are wrong about this.."
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: you
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: i just moved 18.6 gigs of pictures off my phone, ima go through and compile any engine pics i havent uploaded yet
<NathanKell|Twitch>
\o/
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: i have 8500 pics and more than half of them are from the museum...
<Rokker>
i have a problem
<Rokker>
probably 3/4ths are musuem
<Rokker>
museum
<Rokker>
fucking imgur
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<wb99999999>
you people are absolutely amazing...can't believe how much work has gone into the simulation of stuff
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: Pap left a message for you in #RO [15.08.2017 02:35:31]: "We are removing the wait times on the Sounding Rockets. With the new rollout times, we do not think it necessary. When you get back, if you can break it and prove us wrong, please do"
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<Maxsimal>
!tell Pap: Sure I'll take a look. A more important change would be whatever NK is planning to do to nerf build speedup though.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Maxsimal>
Hey Pap, did you make it out to the eclipse?
<Pap-AirNWaterShow>
o/ Welcome back Maxsimal!
<Pap-AirNWaterShow>
We are leaving tomorrow morning around 4 to drive down there. About a 7 hour drive.
<Maxsimal>
Ok! Well have an awesome time, that should be a lot of fun, I wonder how big the crowds will be
<Maxsimal>
Going to update to the latest to see what's changed - do you have a highlights list?
<Pap-AirNWaterShow>
New science system, vastly improved UI for everything. Max funds multiplier is probably 325 percent. I think those are the major changes.
<Maxsimal>
Ok great :) looking forward to seeing this new science system
<Bornholio>
Pap-AirnWaterShow Unlock Parts Tech Node contract reappearing completed on restart. ie loaded my career from yesterday and had contract complete indicated
<Bornholio>
looks like parts i had purchased show no cost but not purchased in R&D starting parts node
<Bornholio>
missing in VAB
<Bornholio>
loaded save instead of persistent fixes it
<Bornholio>
!tell NathaKell|AWAY is it possible to set "Requires Entry Purchase" radio button for default difficulties? since this will not be accessable after start it would require a restart of the career to fix if the person does not change at beginning
<Qboid>
Bornholio: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<awang>
Does the most recent DMagic ModuleScienceAnimate work for KSP 1.2.2?
<awang>
Or will I have to get an older version?
<Bornholio>
ckan release for 1.2.2 works fine
<Bornholio>
thats v0.16
<Bornholio>
Dmagic OS 1.3.8
<awang>
alright
<Pap-AirNWaterShow>
awang: the DMagic science animate is not actually needed anymore. Just DMagic Orbital science
<Theysen>
I need BetterTimeWarp for that 20x physics warp.. 18 minute orbital insertion stages are a general PITA
<Bornholio>
i advise to never do venus sample return :P that long just descending
<Theysen>
I can imagine oO
<Theysen>
generally going to to lvo because science
<Theysen>
pita
<Theysen>
if MJ PEG gets this ariane in orbit i cry
<Bornholio>
made a jupiter dive, that was the worst just getting insertion right was several hours and then over an hour of x4 timewarp in atmosphere till the pod poped
<Theysen>
dangit
<Theysen>
btw is really handy for that
<Theysen>
and astonishingly stable and precise
<Theysen>
for 20x
<Bornholio>
yeah i don't even trust x4 :P
<Theysen>
without x4 i'd be dead
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<awang>
Pap-AirNWaterShow: Ooops. Oh well
<Pap-AirNWaterShow>
Doesn't hurt anything to have it
<Bornholio>
Pap is Ion Mass Spectrometer supposed to be return only?
<Theysen>
do we have any prebuilt complete ISS mod out there these days working in RO?
<smartdummies>
can someone tell me how to execute my flight plan in Principia?
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<egg>
smartdummies: select "show on navball", use MJ or the stock thing to point to the target, start burning as scheduled, use map view to check when to stop, because there's no actual closed-loop guidance for burns (even in current mechjeb)
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<egg>
so you are the closed loop :-p
<smartdummies>
thanks egg. Let me give it a try.
<Pap-AirNWaterShow>
Bornholio yes, the ion mass spectrometer is return only.
<smartdummies>
Ok thats better. checking the baox marked 'Inertially Fixed' on the flight planner also helped lining myself up. Now I just need better reflexes
<Bornholio>
mid course corrections with RCS
<Theysen>
Pap-AirNWaterShow, jebus I wanted to commit my ESA launch sites to RSS for Ariane etc and what do I see - added by Pap. Dude do you get enough time besides KSP ? :D :D
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<Pap-AirNWaterShow>
Lol, I'm at the air and water show right now Theysen :)
<Bornholio>
why are my control surfaces unlinking
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<lamont>
Theysen: i’ve almost got that working in MechJeb
<Theysen>
Does it work with SRB's yet lamont?
<Theysen>
I tried with Ariane and it couldn't find any solutions
<lamont>
hmmm
<Theysen>
if that all works then GG, no custom scripting needed
<lamont>
send me a craft file?
<Theysen>
requires lots of addons :/
<lamont>
so far i haven’t seen mine not converge, although if you give it an overly high TWR like titan 2 it may not find an optimal path because you need a coast
<lamont>
ah
<Theysen>
let me scale it down to basic RealScaleBooster without any fancy payload thrusters etc
<Theysen>
starting TWR is 1.75, final orbit insertion stage is 0.08
<lamont>
i don’t have that one, but i wouldn’t mind installing it, just to have an Ariane to play with
<Theysen>
It's very lightweight
<lamont>
that seems reasonably sane even though the liftoff TWR is a bit russian…
<Theysen>
It's ariane man :/
<lamont>
and you mean 0.80?
<lamont>
because 0.08 is a bit… low…
<Theysen>
lamont, i know but it is like that. You can do the math if you want.. 11,200kg EPS stage + 20,000kg ATV payload = 31,200kg thrusted by a 27kN engine for ~ 12 minutes or so. the core cuts of at ~ 6700m/s and I can't find any info on their exact flight profile
<lamont>
heh, okay, that’s a bit crazy then, it may still work…
<Theysen>
it is and they got it working irl :P all I can imagine is that they might not take the usual route of falling with the upper stage like centaur e.g. but pushing out the apoapsis by alot with the last minute of the core or so
<Theysen>
It just can't find any solution for me :/
<lamont>
they might also loft it and need a coast or something
<Theysen>
from what I read it's inserting into an elliptical orbit first
<Theysen>
then circularizes at 260x260 but that's just for leo procedure and the approach, not because of the lifter
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<Pap-AirNWaterShow>
Rokker usaf
<Theysen>
lamont, it might very well be my MJ install is borked? It doesn't even find a solution for an Atlas V 401 which has no boosters
<lamont>
the PEG in MJ may not, its somewhat limited and we’re abusing the crap out its small angle approximations that it makes all over
<Theysen>
i had it working before, let me reinstall. something's off it doesn't even start the pitch program
<lamont>
!tell NathanKell,taniwha Inverse Rotation is trolling me, halp!
<Qboid>
lamont: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Theysen>
lamont, okay I don't get it at the moment, no vehicle works. I dl the latest RO build.
<Theysen>
^of MJ-RO
<Theysen>
i hope the error is with me
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<lamont>
ah, you might check your MJ version
<lamont>
although if you’ve managed to get stock-size-whatever-it-is installed that CKAN likes to pull as recommended or something of that nature… although i thought that issue was easily apparent with the dV values in the stage stats...
<lamont>
i bet i can bypass the inverse rotation by using the orbit values...
<Theysen>
lamont, I consultet sarb's Jenkins and RO-branch. I have it working now on normal craft, might very well be I need to fiddle around with the orbit altitudes
<awang>
Is the FASA XLR11 model really that inaccurate?
<Theysen>
Bornholio, didn't you upload some general notes on PEG too somewhere?
<awang>
The Taerobee one is way off, but at least to me the FASA one isn't that bad
<Theysen>
should I rather use your latest release than the RO-branch lamont?
<lamont>
no actually i think the RO-branch is currently more up to date
<Theysen>
the craft above launches fine without payload, with the payload it doesn't find anything
<lamont>
ah if the problem is that the payload decreases the TWR of the upper stage then you’re likely violating the close-to-horizontal-burn assumption in the surveyor PEG implemention
<lamont>
somewhere around or below 0.30 TWR i started having issues
<Theysen>
Ooh yeah that might be it then
<Theysen>
just in the cases where I really start needing computer help
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<NathanKell>
Maxsimal: Yes, I limited rush build clicks.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Rokker left a message for you in #RO [20.08.2017 05:38:13]: "http://imgur.com/a/3rCSp"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: lamont left a message for you in #RO [20.08.2017 18:33:47]: "Inverse Rotation is trolling me, halp!"
<NathanKell>
lamont: ?
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<soundnfury>
leudaimon: proc avionics techlevels are broken
<soundnfury>
there are two upperStage, both named earlyAvionics
<soundnfury>
with the result that I don't have any upperStage at all :(
<leudaimon>
hm, I'll check the cfg soundnfury
<soundnfury>
(commit RP-0#2291019)
<leudaimon>
NathanKell, karmán line contract is awarding -30000 funds... As you changed these values recently, probably something was borked
<NathanKell>
It worked fine for me
<Theysen>
soundnfury, did you click on the GUI?
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<NathanKell>
-30000 is the failure penalty
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: I'm guessing the TL0 should be avionicsPrototypes?
<NathanKell>
you’re saying you completed it, it showed completed, but it subtracted funds?
<soundnfury>
Theysen: yes, it's not there
<soundnfury>
I looked in the logs and found that ProceduralAvionicsConfig.Load() was throwing
<leudaimon>
soundnfury, you are right
<leudaimon>
nope NathanKell, I'm saying the offered contract says I'll have -30k on completion
<NathanKell>
Have you done a pull recently
<leudaimon>
yep, just before I started playing half an hour ago
<NathanKell>
...
<NathanKell>
I FIXED THAT!!!
<NathanKell>
>.>
<NathanKell>
there’s something *really* weird about that contract
<NathanKell>
it was showing 0 reward for me before I changed the rewards
<leudaimon>
weird...
<leudaimon>
all other contracts in the list look ok
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: hit Alt-F10 (err, rshf-F10?) and look at the contract in there
<NathanKell>
see what it says for advance and reward
<leudaimon>
-10000
<soundnfury>
sounds like CC is out to lunch :/
<NathanKell>
wut
<leudaimon>
I'll look at the contract definition cfg
<leudaimon>
crazy
<leudaimon>
it's correct there
<NathanKell>
...
<leudaimon>
how can it invert that
<NathanKell>
I have no idea
<NathanKell>
Pap-AirNWaterShow, any ideas?
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<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v5fWs
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: I started from Sound Barrier and copied over some fields, and the REQ/PARAMs. Maybe this will be better?
<leudaimon>
I'll try it
<leudaimon>
but how could this issue have appeared of a sudden?!
<NathanKell>
I have no idea :(
<NathanKell>
Nor do I know why it affected that but not Sound Barrier or Unrewed karman
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<lamont>
NathanKell: how to use the inv rotation stuff to translate position and velocity to actual ECI?
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<lamont>
although instead of bothering with that, i’m going down the route of using vessel.orbit.getRelativePositionAtUT().xzy;
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<leudaimon>
No good NathanKell... still negative
<NathanKell>
lamont: get the body-relative position. Swizzle it. then call orbit.GetRotFrameVelAtPos(referenceBody, that_pos)
<NathanKell>
then reswizzle and add that to your rigid body velocity plus krakensbane frame velocity
<NathanKell>
that’s your ECI velocity
<lamont>
wat?
<NathanKell>
First get ECI position. That’s (my pos) - (body.pos)
<NathanKell>
then swizzle that (that.xzy)
<NathanKell>
then get rotating velocity: vessel.orbit.GetRotFrameVelAtPos(vessel.mainBody, that_pos)
<NathanKell>
then swizzle that vector so it’s back in real space not orbit space
<NathanKell>
that’s your rotational velocity component
<NathanKell>
then add vessel.velocityD
<lamont>
‘k, i think i got that
<NathanKell>
that’s your velocity in realspace (rigid + krakensbane)
<NathanKell>
you now have your ECI velocity.
<lamont>
krakensbane velocity is also entirely new to me
<lamont>
although i understand the origin story
<NathanKell>
generally the parts have miniscule actual rigidbody velocities, and 99%+ of the velocity is applied to everything *but* the active vessel
<github>
[RP-0] ec429 opened pull request #756: Fix duplicate name in upperStage techlimit configs (Developmental...Developmental) https://git.io/v5flk
<NathanKell>
so you might have 0.005m/s velocity on a part (assuming nothing’s rotating much), and 7500m/s krakensbane velocity (which is applied, negatively, to everything else in the universe)
<NathanKell>
that keeps your vessel near the origin
<lamont>
r = vesselState.CoM - vessel.mainBody.position;
<lamont>
if that works i’ll bake that directly into vesselState in MJ
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<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Good, if rush build is nerfed it should help a lot. I still have to test - got busy with post-trip family stuff though. I'll race through some builds tomorrow and give you feedback. Changes all sound good so far though.
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<awang>
Is the X-1 supposed to be stupidly expensive?
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<NathanKell>
what do you mean, awang?
<NathanKell>
re: the X-1
<awang>
The X-1-ish thing I'm building has a rollout cost of ~45000 funds
<awang>
And the cabin alone is ~2500 funds
<awang>
Seems like it may be slightly excessive
<awang>
But I'm probably missing something
<NathanKell>
That’s bugged
<NathanKell>
Send me the craft file?
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 2 new commits to Developmental: https://git.io/v5fRY
<github>
RP-0/Developmental ddc55b8 Edward Cree: Fix duplicate name in upperStage techlimit configs
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 03a4954 NathanKell: Merge pull request #756 from ec429/Developmental...
<awang>
RP-0/RO are symlinked, and git says there aren't any changes
<NathanKell>
symlinked to dev in each case?
<NathanKell>
Well, there *was* just a change
<awang>
Yeah
<NathanKell>
I accepted snf’s pull
<NathanKell>
so...
<NathanKell>
maybe not as linked as you hope?
<awang>
Only commits I'm missing are the reworked crewed Karman contract and the recent PR
<awang>
Those shouldn't affect pricing?
<NathanKell>
correct
<NathanKell>
so do the other thing, reselect RP-0 preset
<NathanKell>
but beyond that I’m confused
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<awang>
Reselected, same cost :(
<awang>
Hmmm
<NathanKell>
then I suggest moving those folders out and trying to download the repos
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<awang>
grrr
<awang>
git was supposed to help
<lamont>
Theysen: yeah your upper stage is very low and has a 14 minute long burn time. existing PEG code will have an issue with that.
<soundnfury>
awang: you could just copy from the git checkout to GameData
<soundnfury>
(rather than symlinking)
<awang>
soundnfury: But that's so much more work :(
<awang>
Also, something's definitely borked
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|Twitch: RCS thrusterPower is broken: all three starting Attitude Jet parts have the same thrust (194N for HTP)
<awang>
Just realized my KRASH settings are wayyyy out of line
<NathanKell|Twitch>
soundnfury: Ok. I’ll look at that later. Must have broken in my conversion to the engineType system
<lamont>
!tell Theysen yeah your upper stage is very low TWR and has a 14 minute long burn time, the existing PEG code will have difficult with that, shuttle code should be better, but its a bit of a mess right now so I can’t check convergence…
<Qboid>
lamont: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang>
Wonder if git worktree will also be broken...
<Sigma88>
oh god
<Sigma88>
I was watching kingsman
<Sigma88>
after movie went almost two hours of movie, everything went south extremely fast
<leudaimon>
before or after satellite shooting from a balloon?
<awang>
Is RSS master for KSP 1.3 or 1.2.2?
<soundnfury>
oh man I forgot about this. If the last thing you flew was in space, and then you launch a plane with two people in it, the "crew count 2" contract completes :/
<Sigma88>
leudaimon: that wasn't even the worst part
<Sigma88>
the real turning point is when they activate the chips :D
<awang>
Sigma88: Is this the first Kingsman?
<Sigma88>
yes
<Sigma88>
I had never watched it before, and last week I went to see spiderman and got the trailer for kingsman 2
<Sigma88>
I'm still not sure if I like the "change of pace" or not
<awang>
Ah yes
<awang>
That was an interesting movie
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<leudaimon>
even though I'm not into this type of movie, it wasn't all that bad, but the first half is definitely better
<leudaimon>
when the humor goes away and only the action remains it gets bland
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<Sigma88>
I just didn't see it coming
<Sigma88>
up untill the chip fireworks scene everything was silly but not over the top
<Sigma88>
after that it went batshit crazy
<Sigma88>
completely nonsensical
<Sigma88>
I still liked it
<Sigma88>
:)
<Sigma88>
just didn't see it coming
<Sigma88>
saw*
<leudaimon>
lol
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<Sigma88>
I mean, they did a good job of not showing the explosion when the first chip went off at the start of the movie
<Sigma88>
the tone would have been completely different
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<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: yo
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<NathanKell|Twitch>
Pap-AirNWaterShow: What *is* biome-based in space? Other than analyze telemetry
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<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: yoooo
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: I've met with the chief of stratos