<ProjectThoth>
Slavi: Meh, the real bummer is that the Shuttle was design-by-committee and just kinda "meh" at everything it did.
<Hohman>
if it was just kind of "meh" it would still be flying
<ProjectThoth>
Hell, operating an expendable cargo variant (like Shuttle-C) in parallel with the orbiter would have been a good enough change to make it useful.
<Bornholio>
I blame Solids
<Hohman>
Never not use liquids
<ProjectThoth>
I'm not a fan of solids, but I don't blame them all that much.
<ProjectThoth>
If you ask me, the payload bay was the big issue.
<Hohman>
the airforce is to blame really at the end of the day
<Hohman>
the requirements to handle certain sensitive payloads was it
<ProjectThoth>
The USAF pushed to get 15' by 60' and never wound up using it. It was a total waste of volume, and ergo it made the Shuttle mind-bogglingly gigantic.
<ProjectThoth>
That's why I like Faget's shuttle (see link, the timing was a coinkidink).
<Bornholio>
yes but thats what was expected to enable stations, that didn't happen till to late in its life
<ProjectThoth>
Only had a payload of about 7 metric tons. It was small but great for what it was designed for.
<ProjectThoth>
Bulk payloads make zero sense on spaceplanes.
<Hohman>
But on the other hand nobody could reasonably have *proven* that without trying one.
<Hohman>
So at least the shuttle put the spaceplane concept to rest for the forseeable future
<ProjectThoth>
Hohman: No, that's the thing with the Shuttle, it had to happen.
<ProjectThoth>
Nobody could have realistically predicted a lot of the issues that cropped up with the program.
<Hohman>
And there's an alternate universe out there where the shuttle was an unqualified success
<Hohman>
because the economics and politics were different going into it
<ProjectThoth>
Yeah. Even as it turned out to be in our timeline, the Shuttle could have been a resounding success if an HLV had been developed to piggyback off of infrastructure and tooling meant for the orbiter.
<Slavi>
Okay team, wish me luck! My "Sprutnik" is about to launch. It's a sorta upgraded sputnik with a few scientific instruments, built using nothing but WACs and A9s, weighing in at exactly 59 tons.
<ProjectThoth>
Or even something really stupid, like a 5 ton vehicle derived from the SRBs.
<ProjectThoth>
Slavi: I wish you luck!
<Slavi>
It took a full 200 days to build, so I won't be able to reach orbit in 1952 unless this works.
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<ProjectThoth>
The big takeaway from the Shuttle program is that 1) you can't make a vehicle that does *everything*, 2) winged vehicles are a big pain in the ass above about like 10 tons to LEO, and 3) design by committee is not good for efficiency and optimization.
<ProjectThoth>
Also, high flight rates are really, really, really hard to do.
<Slavi>
I don't know if I entirely agree, ProjectThoth , design by a single dude is not necessarily better than a committee, take the N-1 compared to the Saturn V. If Koralev took the advice to use the RD-270 for the first stage it would have turned out better.
<ProjectThoth>
Slavi: I should specify - "committee" as in "multiple organizations," not multiple individuals.
<ProjectThoth>
You're right, the Saturn V was a resounding success because of the MSFC's work as a group.
<ProjectThoth>
But you had two groups jockeying over the Shuttle with wildly different requirements. Once-around polar orbits are just an insane concept.
<Bornholio>
multiple paths can produce better solutions also, pre shuttle a lot of rockets of various designs went up. The horrible part of shutttle was killing all the alternates
<Slavi>
*sigh*
<Slavi>
That isn't to say it ain't one of the coolest spacecraft ever built, because it totally was.
<Slavi>
But the grass really is always greener on the other side.
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<ProjectThoth>
Slavi: Oh, yeah, it was pretty sweet all things considered, it just wasn't amazeballs good at any one particular thing.
<ProjectThoth>
Besides looking cool. I guess that was done pretty well.
<ProjectThoth>
Bornholio: Yeah, there were a lot of viable alternates that kept getting killed.
<Slavi>
my fingers are crossed so hard they're on the verge of breaking - the A9 is so unreliable and this is my second launch EVER using this engine - 3 for the core stage, 1 for the second stage. Previously I only used one to launch a giant sounding rocket, so this is a bit scary
<Slavi>
I think a single performance loss would scrub this launch.
<Bornholio>
then yup, agathorn will have at thee
<Slavi>
we're still going great guns
<ProjectThoth>
Get out and push!
<Slavi>
sadly I didn't equip my sputnik with arms
Snoozee is now known as Majiir
<Slavi>
19 seconds left on the upper stage, all systems nominal
<Slavi>
gonna activate the nitrogen rcs at the 5 second mark, to get ready for the unguided upper stage
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<SpecimenSpiff>
o/
<Slavi>
hey SpecimenSpiff you're just in time to hear the results of my 1952 sputnik mission
<Bornholio>
pap is eva science removed?
<Pap>
No bornholio, it should work. Did you upgrade the center?
<SpecimenSpiff>
Sputnik in 1952, impressive
<Bornholio>
yes, i can eva but have not EVA report option
<SpecimenSpiff>
Does anyone have a clue on timing for a 1.3 release of RO, RP-0, etc? I'm developing a mod right now, and I'd ahte to do it all for 1.2 and then immediately ahve to turn around for 1.3
<SpecimenSpiff>
but I also dont want to go straight to 1.3 and then not be able to use if for months
<Slavi>
TBH I should have named it Gopnik 1, but I suppose that can be my vostok.
<Slavi>
Now that I think about it, does anyone else get a bit of a Gemini vibe from my satellite?
<SpecimenSpiff>
a bit, yes
<Slavi>
I put it in a decently inclined orbit, so I have the great privelege of being able to gather a butt ton of science with the onboard geiger counter
<SpecimenSpiff>
what textures are you using? And what was you LV like to put that in orbit that early?
<Slavi>
I've got a picture somewhere - gimme 3, homie
<ProjectThoth>
It's a big pointy Sputnik.
<Slavi>
oh no, it didn't capture any pictures very well.
<Slavi>
Uh,
<Slavi>
well the first stage was a 45 ton tank with 3 A9 engines on it
<Slavi>
the second stage was a 15 ton tank with one A9
<Slavi>
and the orbital insertion was two of those conic sections, one with 6 WAC engines, and the second with 2 WAC engines.
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<Slavi>
launch occured 21 days after I finished development on my launchpad upgrade, which was 3 days to integrate the geiger counter and then 17 days to roll the thing out
<Slavi>
I'll go take a pic of the vehicle in the VAB, because the in flight pics all captured my desktop backround apparently, wowser.
<Slavi>
salvaged one of the second stage burning to orbit
<Slavi>
or at least lofting it rather high
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<SpecimenSpiff>
where are you launching from?
<Slavi>
Baikonur
<Slavi>
I'm playing as the soviets, obviously.
<Slavi>
Actualy htis is a very multicultural launcher
<Slavi>
German engines, american engines, and a russian space probe
<Slavi>
Although I really do wish I could have had the HTP reaction control thrusters by this point, they could have seamlessly used the turbopump fuel from the 2nd stage
<Slavi>
I COULD have switched to Nitrous Oxide or Helium, but I thought the nitrogen thrusters would be just fine [and they were]
<Slavi>
That pic was taken in a quick simulation, because none of the early pictures came out right.
<Slavi>
My laptop doesn't like taking screenshots when using borderless windowed mode.
<Slavi>
So, aint she cool, SpecimenSpiff ?
<Slavi>
Oops I lied they were XASR-1s instead of WACs.
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<SpecimenSpiff>
Yep, very nice
<SpecimenSpiff>
The test career I was doing a couple of weeks ago, I did a typical juno/explorer in 1954
<Slavi>
It was ungodly expesive though.
<SpecimenSpiff>
I imagine
<Slavi>
I'm talking 200 days to build
<Slavi>
and that was after I boosted it to 42%
<Slavi>
broke the bank, and if it failed I would have been SOL until at least mid 1953
<Slavi>
but somehow TF didn't summarily execute me as it is often prone to do
<Slavi>
thanks Agathorn :P
<SpecimenSpiff>
I took me 6 tries, with two catastrophic test flight failures that I accpeted, and three bonehead errors that I didnt and rolled back, to get mine to work
<SpecimenSpiff>
When I finish this mod I'm working, my name might end up there with Agathorn's on the curse list
<Slavi>
what
<Slavi>
are you doing
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<Slavi>
actually SpecimenSpiff , I was working on making some of my own procedural parts textures - if you have any suggestions send 'em my way, preferably with a reference image
<SpecimenSpiff>
cool, Id love to have more textures
<Slavi>
So far I have a few side textures, a bottom texture, and I wanted to make a texture that was better suited to making procedural tank butts in the way that NathanKell|AFK is so fond of
<Slavi>
because honestly I'm big into it as well :P
<SpecimenSpiff>
I'm working on a range safety mod. In your case "Comrade, is nekulturny to fly rocket over Chinese territory and cause international incident. I press big red button now. Perhaps you wish to look through telescope to watch fireworks, memory keep you warm in Siberia."
<Slavi>
Oh, well, that really only annoys you if you play from Biakonur, haha
<Slavi>
if you play from florida you literally have no worries
<SpecimenSpiff>
until you want to go polar
<SpecimenSpiff>
the initial version will just enforce the launch azimuth. but later on I want to put in some other things, for example if your rocket flips on staging, boom
<SpecimenSpiff>
lose an engine during boost, boom
<Slavi>
In fairness, I actually have range safety'd some rockets because of things like that. I try to enforce a little realism.
<Bornholio>
I have much pride in getting Agathorn inflicted rockets to orbit :(
<SpecimenSpiff>
forget to build a viable launch escape system for your kerbals and have an engine failure? so sad
<Slavi>
With PEG I think that won't be too much of a problem on cooperative engines
<Slavi>
I had to fly my most recent launcher by hand because those nazi engines really don't like to obey mechjebs commands
<SpecimenSpiff>
the 2nd version will have a couple flight stability checks. so it wont hook into test flight directly, but if you aren't climbing enough and hit the bottom of the range slope, boom. start spinning and go x degrees off prograde? boom. or lose control and pitch/yaw over y degrees per second? bom
<Slavi>
can we have a mechanic where we can bribe the RSO with a bottle of vodka?
<Slavi>
Comrade, look - we really need this one to be a success, so please don't abort unless we point below the horizon.
<SpecimenSpiff>
ill probably have a disarm button so you can cheat
<Slavi>
Sorry about being so hyped about the mission - I generally progress through the old version of RP-0 rather easily, but this one seems harder, which makes the accomplishments all the sweeter.
<SpecimenSpiff>
Indeed. I'd normally be in orbit my 2nd or 3rd play session in a career, this time i've done 15 or so missions and am still not even remotely thinking about orbit yet
<Slavi>
the real hardship will come when I want to make a molniya style vehicle without using the rd 108, which is currently bugged in my install
<Slavi>
and even though I tried to do the thing that Pap did to fix it, it didn't work.
<Bornholio>
the fix is pushed to dev
<Bornholio>
not work?
<Slavi>
I tried it Bornholio but it didn't work
<Slavi>
maybe I downloaded a copy of dev too soon?
<Slavi>
I'll try again right after I log off of the save
<Bornholio>
i'll reload it and try
<SpecimenSpiff>
This was my first satellite two careers ago. That one ended when I started testing all this development stuff: http://imgur.com/a/436sq
<wb99999999>
huh, PEG started to having problems just when I started to enjoy it... my life in a nutshell
<Slavi>
Oh my, that thing is a beauty SpecimenSpiff
<Slavi>
It reminds me of an artists rendition of the Pegasus 1
<Slavi>
I'll see if I can find his picture, but it has a similar flavor, trust me.
<SpecimenSpiff>
actually looking again, that wasnt my first satellite, that was my first comm satellite, so 2 or 3 launches after first orbit
<Slavi>
wb99999999: no it doesn't - it burns the main engine the whole time
<wb99999999>
wow
<Slavi>
the R7 Semyorka can best be described as a vodka powered bat out of hell
<Slavi>
before we RP0 existed I remember flying a sputnik 1 replica by hand and holy cow that was a wild ride
<wb99999999>
I wager it won't be very precise as an ICBM then...
<SpecimenSpiff>
SLV-7 Atlayorka: the bastard child of atlas and semyorka: http://imgur.com/a/jFmDm
<wb99999999>
points for a aesthetically pleasing 1.5 stage
<wb99999999>
with PP it's hard to make it look good
<Slavi>
SpecimenSpiff: that rocket looks great, but still deeply offends me in concept :P
<SpecimenSpiff>
heh
<SpecimenSpiff>
it served me very well, with engine upgrades as my career progressed, it probably did more than half my launches
<Slavi>
is it more or less cost effective than the venerable sapwood?
<wb99999999>
wow...plz tell me how you did that engine structure
<wb99999999>
that ring with booster engines
<SpecimenSpiff>
it was a ton of work, took me about 8 hours to get it right
<SpecimenSpiff>
fairings with surface attach and fuel transfer, but symmettry and surface attach dont go together, so I had to build and place each of the 4 pods separately
<Slavi>
I assume it's just off of a single piece circular fairing/boat tail + some procedural tanks on that
<Slavi>
damn SpecimenSpiff you beat me to it :P
<Slavi>
but I was spot on so at least there's that.
<Bornholio>
well that rd108 fix didn't take :(
<SpecimenSpiff>
but the basic concept is to do a boat tail fairing, then surface attach a conical tank, another interstage on the bottom of that cone, and that has the fairings and booster engines
<SpecimenSpiff>
if you dont mind it all falling apart when you stage, it's much easier, but I wanted it to come off and stay together
<wb99999999>
impressive
<Slavi>
Bornholio: well, fix it! :P
<Slavi>
I believe in you!
<Slavi>
I still have about 2 launches before I could use RD108s anyway so no rush '3'
<SpecimenSpiff>
I couldn't have done it without NathaKell's help, he walked me through it over twitch one evening
<Slavi>
spiff I actually did exactly the same thing to make a thing that used the early titan-hydrolox thing + a few booster engines of some description. It was a bit of a freak show, with a single tank that had 3 resources in it, but it did work.
<Slavi>
But I had the fairings fall apart because I didn't want to spend my entire life working on it, haha - the results seem to pay for themselves though, your rocket is spiffy.
<wb99999999>
I have tried something similar but the performance doesn't seem to worth the hassle
<Bornholio>
don't see how its broken
<wb99999999>
I still remember that day when I noticed the Soviets literally launched their first satellite with 10x the lift off thrust than America
<wb99999999>
and found out they didn't even needed to increase the booster thrust in the last 60 years
<SpecimenSpiff>
If the Soviets had had better solids and the desire, they probably could have used the R-5, I think it was, to basically do it explorer-style
<SpecimenSpiff>
I need to check, but I think the R-5 actually had superior performance compared to Jupiter
<Bornholio>
ah its missing the Module section before the configs
<SpecimenSpiff>
but they didnt have something comparable to the baby sergeants
<wb99999999>
I didn't know the kick motors are so important
<SpecimenSpiff>
its the same concept as payload, every ounce up high makes the base LV work that much harder
<SpecimenSpiff>
to get from the IRBM that is the Jupiter/R-5, you need 3km/sec, but if getting that 3km/sec masses too much, then the IRBM doesnt get you as far, and you need more, etc
<SpecimenSpiff>
hm, my config file loader code is not getting the right patch for my config file
<SpecimenSpiff>
I copied code from mechjeb, and it wants to go to the ancient plugindata folder
<SpecimenSpiff>
time to google how I'm supposed to do that
<wb99999999>
the R-7's success feels a bit predetermined though, since not only it has higher thrust but also a good deal higher Isp
<Slavi>
I just noticed that my procedural fairings don't seem to have a manual sizing option
<wb99999999>
funny how RS-27 on delta 2 so many years later still can't get the same Isp
<Slavi>
does that unlock later on in the tech tree? even if turn "Fairing auto shape" off it doesn't let me customize the shape
<wb99999999>
Slavi it's a bug
<wb99999999>
sometimes you click that button and the customization menu just won't show up
<wb99999999>
reload, go to pad and launch something, restart game...do something and it will eventually come back
<Slavi>
lol
<Slavi>
thanks for the tip wb99999999
<wb99999999>
If only I know who to complain to
<wb99999999>
they'll get their butt ripped off
<wb99999999>
I had this for months
<Slavi>
So I think
<Slavi>
something is weird about this rocket I'm working on
<Slavi>
RD-103 first stage, AJ10-27 upper stage + a solid kick for a sputnik core
<Slavi>
and I'm getting a 14 ton vehicle that can get into polar orbit
<Slavi>
that seems crazy to me.
<wb99999999>
14 ton?
<wb99999999>
well vanguard is like 10 tons
<Slavi>
ah, I see my problem
<Slavi>
I had not avionics on the first stage, so it was artificially super light
<Slavi>
gotta add an avionics unit
<wb99999999>
actually i think you can keep this design
<wb99999999>
switch to balloon tank later, with better avioncs on 2nd stage
<SpecimenSpiff>
Slavi, I forget what the mass was and I don't have a vab picture, but that's exactly what this rocket was: http://thesquirrelpatrol.imgur.com/all/
<Slavi>
SpecimenSpiff: did you name the Puck after a rather annoying fairy?
<SpecimenSpiff>
I really liked this one: http://imgur.com/qS5KkuG, RD-108 sustainer with small SRBs. I forget what the upper was though. 1.5 tons to leo
<SpecimenSpiff>
yep, I was naming after mythology in that career, and was starting with smallish ones for the small LV's
<wb99999999>
funny how US and Soviet rocket tech always complement each others
<Slavi>
They definitely do work well together.
<wb99999999>
and take this to extreme we get Atlas V
<Slavi>
Atlas V Heavy, boiiii
<Slavi>
coolest rocket
<wb99999999>
even the base line model is pretty elegant
<wb99999999>
russain main engine+american SRB is every rocketeer's wet dream
<Slavi>
I still think the NK series of engines is by far the coolest, of like, ever.
<Slavi>
I feel like the Merlin series is their baby though.
<wb99999999>
Kuznetsov rocket engines are radical even in today's standards
<wb99999999>
anything later are much tamer
<SpecimenSpiff>
Damn, I was afraid of that, I cant use the microsoft geo location libraries in a mod.
<SpecimenSpiff>
from the specs we have on raptor, it will blow away even the russian engines in terms of chamber pressure, etc
<wb99999999>
rd-170 and derivatives are not as light and the Merlins don't run nearly as hot
<SpecimenSpiff>
SpaceX is really pushing that design
<wb99999999>
I won't say anything about Raptor until they do a full length test fire
<ferram4>
wb99999999, you wanna know why the RS-27 gets so much worse Isp than the RD-107? Because the RS-27's gas gen runs on RP-1 + LOx, so it counts towards Isp, while the RD-107's runs off of separate H2O2, which doesn't.
<wb99999999>
...wait
<ferram4>
The Isp (counting H2O2 as a propellant this time) on the RD-107 is something around 290 at max.
<wb99999999>
right
<wb99999999>
H2O2
<ferram4>
Yes. Hydrogen peroxide
<wb99999999>
everything make since now
<wb99999999>
stupid me
<wb99999999>
I see the HTP resource every time I fill a tank for RD-107 and not realizing that is not counted in the Isp
<ferram4>
No, it's not an engine that runs on water
<ferram4>
:P
<wb99999999>
how comically stupid am I
<Slavi>
ferram4: the one that's pretty funny is the A4/9 because it contains enough HTP to run itself for its entire rated burn time, so you have to be careful about purging it from the tanks when you autofill.
<Slavi>
I'm happy that I've moved on from A9s to RD-103s for my orbital launches. This one will be a polar orbit satellite and it's not even 20 tons. Yay for better technology over time, haha.
Majiir is now known as Snoozee
<Bornholio>
pap is there something in your spreadsheets that generates configs? http://i.imgur.com/me4swXG.png found this is the problem, not sure about origMass or i'd go change it
<Starwaster>
NathanKell|AFK been around lately? Or is he out, asleep, nomming?
<Bornholio>
probably at the bar with Sarbian :P
<Starwaster>
!tell NathanKell* First preliminary functioning MLI in place now! Can be configured per TANK_DEFINITION and player can add layers. Pushed code to cry branch. Still needs some work but it can be tested now in-game
<Qboid>
Starwaster: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Starwaster>
Qboid does take wildcards right?
<Bornholio>
send me one
Technicalfool is now known as TechnicallySleeping
<Starwaster>
!tell Born* ANSWER ME NAAAAOOOOH!
<Qboid>
Starwaster: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Bornholio>
.
<Qboid>
Bornholio: Starwaster left a message for you in #RO [26.08.2017 04:19:38]: "ANSWER ME NAAAAOOOOH!"
<Starwaster>
yay
<Starwaster>
ok so soon we'll be able to add MLI to any tank and it will be based on the latest Lockheed equations I could find
<Bornholio>
cool
<Starwaster>
I do notice some discrepancies though and that's either due to different coefficients and just different temperature deltas depending on what sims were being run
<Starwaster>
works with the stock system too instead of as an adjunct
<Bornholio>
thats good, are you just using a simple k value for a MLI layer or anything configurable?
<Starwaster>
it calculates both radiation and conduction through layers then figures out the normalized conduction value and we do heatConductivity * normalizedConduction * MLI transfer rate
<Starwaster>
MLI suffers if there is gas in between the layers but I don't have convection in yet.... which affects nothing if you're in a vacuum
<Bornholio>
nice, what about later tech like aerogel or using gold coated mylar instead of aluminum
<Starwaster>
that can be possible but it'll need plugin coefficients instead of the hard coded ones I have right now
<Starwaster>
the two main ones being the radiation coefficients and the conduction coefficients (the latter I think was based on silk netting and right now they're leaning towards Dacron which performs better)
<Bornholio>
might be better that way then it could be easily modified by partupgrade configs
<Starwaster>
later on down the road sure
<Starwaster>
this was just to get something up and running ASAP
<Starwaster>
and also I'm not sure what would be suitable COEFFICENTS
<Starwaster>
caps = cat's fault
<Bornholio>
i know about that catasrphe
<Starwaster>
she's not even supposed to jump on the desk, I dunno why I'm tolerating her... I don't let anyone else on the desk
<Bornholio>
lol
<Starwaster>
but she's a new cat and I guess it makes her feel better because she wants to be near me
<Starwaster>
she used to run around the neighborhood as a stray until some dumbass trapped her and turned her over to animal control
<Bornholio>
mine will get up and lay his head on my mouse hand and kick the keyboard away
<Starwaster>
and they asked us if we'd take her
<Starwaster>
the only other cat I let on my desk was Melificent when she was alive... she of course was allowed to do anything
<Bornholio>
speak of the devil here comes the headbutter
<Starwaster>
including eat from my plate. We used to dine together :(
<Starwaster>
I'd cut off the good bits of steak for her
<Bornholio>
our guy eats at the dinner table sitting at his own chair, 6 treats each night
<Starwaster>
for the record, Maggie is NOT allowed to eat from my plate... which hasn't stopped her from trying
<Starwaster>
though I did give her a few pieces
<Bornholio>
weak willed fool, do my bidding!
<Bornholio>
did you find the doc you were looking for earlier?
<wb99999999>
seems like some heat related sweetness has happened
<Slavi>
I'm rushing solarpanels so hard that I should be able to put up my first molniya lite comsat by the last few days of 1953
<Slavi>
It should have a high apogee, highish perigee, and solar power so it can stay up forever.
<wb99999999>
are you planning to put it in the actual molniya orbit?
<wb99999999>
not sure that's even possible tho
<Starwaster>
bornholio what is that heat flow rate units in? BTU? Watts?
<Slavi>
Okay, I'm gonna go to bed shortly, but I just wanted to say my new favorite feature of this mod is that in my mission to get a satellite into a polar orbit it made me wait 1 minute to make sure it was a a stable orbit.
<Slavi>
wb99999999: no it isn't going to be in an actual molniya orbit - it will be about 300x5000 with an inclination of about 60 degrees
<Starwaster>
uhm? RO doesn't have configs for SSTU solar arrays?
<Slavi>
wow though, a polar satellite with "Satellite Era Science" modules was able to get me 94 science in a single launch. That's a lot of upgradin'! I will say though, I have gamed the system a little bit by buying all the cheapest nodes and then pushing them off to the end of the upgrade queue
<wb99999999>
it's the subtle difference in how the casters talk
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<wb99999999>
they don't sound like the air force guys
<wb99999999>
nor do they sound like NASA
<wb99999999>
I still remember how the casters insisted on calling SRBs "SRM" during the Delta IV launches
<wb99999999>
here we go
<SpecimenSpiff>
5 solid stages to an equatorial orbit is funky
<Rokker>
SpecimenSpiff: no u
<SpecimenSpiff>
and stage 4 and 5 are identical from what I can detemermine, so they must have a really funky burn
<Rokker>
SpecimenSpiff: ok so i looked into it
<Rokker>
this is a minotaur iv, right?
<Rokker>
the baseline has an Orion 38
<Rokker>
this is a Minotaur IV-Orion 38 in the old style of attaching a modular second stage to a rocket like atlas-agena
<Rokker>
etc
<Rokker>
so yeah
<Rokker>
this is a baseline Minotaur IV with a second Orion 38 stuck on top of that for the inclination change
<SpecimenSpiff>
3 main stages, then an orion 38 stage for orbital insertion, and another orion 38 for inclination change at the equator
<SpecimenSpiff>
ninja'd
<SpecimenSpiff>
this web browser client doesnt scroll down as more text comes in ;(
<Rokker>
lol
<SpecimenSpiff>
and woot \o/ It took me way more time than it should have to get this working, but we have a UI with data loaded from config for the eastern range: http://imgur.com/a/RLN45
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<Rokker>
SpecimenSpiff wb99999999 holy shit that accuracy
<Rokker>
604 by 599, 0.02 degree inclination
<SpecimenSpiff>
damn
<SpecimenSpiff>
it always amazes me how precise they can get that stuff
<Rokker>
SpecimenSpiff: not bad for an all solid 5 stage eh?
<SpecimenSpiff>
I mean, some of the interplanetary missions were direct launch with solids
<wb99999999>
how can they manage that
<blowfish>
I am aware of solids that can "shut down"
<blowfish>
basically there's some panel on the casing the can be blown off, the rapid decrease in pressure causes a flameout
<blowfish>
not sure how common they are though
<Rokker>
blowfish: nah, thats not what they did here
<Rokker>
its pretty rare
<blowfish>
hmm, they probably have a somewhat different guidance algorithm for solid LVs
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<blowfish>
rather than get to the desired orbit minimizing delta-v spent, get to the desired orbit using a particular quantity of delta-v
<SpecimenSpiff>
and lots of very detailed math done long before launch
<wb99999999>
in theory this is possible
<ProjectThoth>
No liquid at all on that launch?
<Rokker>
blowfish: when im doing solids uppers i usally just set up a maneuver node with the amount of dV i want and then adjust it around
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: some RCS for orientation
<Rokker>
blowfish: and keep the dV set
<Rokker>
until i get the orbit or intercept i want
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<borntosleep>
starwaster that is a k value assuming (.11) Btu*inch/hour/sqr-foot/F = 0.0159 watt/meter/K @75F, 24C
<borntosleep>
four successful recoveries of silly orbital pods http://i.imgur.com/PQJfhkg.png with now surface features burned off
<borntosleep>
no
<Theysen>
looks like hermes without the middle section :D
<Theysen>
Nice
<borntosleep>
going to see if adding a crew can is survivable in a bit, so i can do two man contracts
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<Bornholio>
struggling with training system, courses not being active or not allowing a trained 'naut to load in a space that they have both prof and mission in. I'd say that even working as intended its one of the more frustration things to hassle with especially since there is no timer stop for the durations
<Rokker>
Bornholio: you know what i wish they would bring back
<Bornholio>
more moon rocks?
<Rokker>
the AIR-2
<Bornholio>
?
<Bornholio>
oh genie
<Rokker>
or the AIM-26
<Rokker>
im not pickey
<Rokker>
picky
<Bornholio>
the shadow works fine in air to air mode
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<awang>
\o
<Bornholio>
aim-26 is kinda silly, its slow and short ranged.
<Bornholio>
great conventional standoff weapon though
<Rokker>
Bornholio: i didnt realize how low yield it was
<Rokker>
i always thought it was still within the range of the genies yield
<Bornholio>
had the davy crocket warhead
<Rokker>
a more powerful version of it
<Rokker>
like 25 times more powerful
<Rokker>
Bornholio: i always found SADM more silly than davy crockett
<Rokker>
"oh we need to blow up some building, lets just backpack a nuke in
<Bornholio>
regardless hyperbaric weapons have taken that roll
<Bornholio>
role
<Bornholio>
and CBU's have the same saturation area for far less tactical pain to use
<awang>
Anything big I missed in the past few days?
<Rokker>
awang: a minotaur iv launch
<Rokker>
everyone is always like "rockets arent legos" and then i look at rockets and they pretty clearly are legos
<Bornholio>
awang if by big in release wise, no very little, RD-108 is currently broken and needs a fix :/
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<Starwaster>
bornholio ok so the deal with Aerogel as an insulator vs MLI, it has inferior performance compared to MLI in a vacuum but does much better in an atmosphere. (gas in between the layers kills MLI performance)
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<Bornholio>
juggling.
<Bornholio>
!tell NathanKell|AFK not sure if its possible to have multiple crew space in current training system. http://i.imgur.com/EmtYhxk.png regardless it needs a lot of tuning, as well intentioned as mission training may be its cumbersome and i've missed several missions just fumbling with training crew. If i had a suggestions it would be to eliminate the crew training decay. That would eliminate the need for one training type and moderate the
<Qboid>
Bornholio: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Bornholio>
starwaster, yeah, evacutaed aerogell is even better and that stuff is industrial grade for things like wrapping pipes at refineries, so its twice as good as other insulations but not near what it could be
<Bornholio>
main drawback is fragility
<Starwaster>
like solid smoke
<Bornholio>
lighter than air, if you evacuate the air :P
<wb99999999>
Aerogel gives me the impression that it is very, very easy to shred, scratch and tear
<wb99999999>
but is it?
<Bornholio>
the industrial stuff is tougher than the next best insulator LDPE foam
<Bornholio>
not great but ok if it is skinned in something reasonable
<wb99999999>
oh wait, I missed the "evacuated
<wb99999999>
I missed the "evacuated" part
<Bornholio>
in vaccum the air goes away and it becomes a better insulator, just like MLI
<wb99999999>
sweet, it burnt through before conduction enough heat to melt the chocolate
<wb99999999>
now I want a coffee mug wrapped with this
<Bornholio>
i dropped a link to some industrial fiber reinforced sheeting last night, not nearly as good as the stuff in that video but still twice as good as a plastic insulator
<wb99999999>
what is ULA's plan for ACES?
<Rokker>
Bornholio: stratochief's friend who went down to TN with us for the eclipsewas telling mestories about how he lives near minot and how sometimes he would see B-52s start to circle him on the road and stuff
egg|zzz|egg is now known as egg|nomz|egg
<Bornholio>
fun
<Bornholio>
wb99999999 they say MLI, but thats a pretty broad brush
<wb99999999>
they needed something better than we have now if they're planning to land the stage on the moon
<wb99999999>
maybe one day we'll see the throttling RL-10 put in to use again...
<Bornholio>
not realy, they need a cryocooler to recompress gasses. better insulation just means slower loss. MLI is pretty impressive
<wb99999999>
will IVF be able to produce enough power for this purpose?
<wb99999999>
screw it. nobody knows...
<Bornholio>
well not knowing the efficiency of their fuel cell/engine i'd say between less than 14MJ per kg of fuel used :P
<Bornholio>
10MJ
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<wb99999999>
strange, principia might actually make the game easier
<wb99999999>
because its physics are much more stable
<egg|nomz|egg>
:D
<egg|nomz|egg>
that's good to know
<wb99999999>
same goes for FAR right
<egg|nomz|egg>
wb99999999: easier *and* more realistic, best of both worlds :D
<wb99999999>
FAR doesn't make the game that much harder anyway
<wb99999999>
and better aero is more intuitive
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<ferram4>
So. I have gotten ProcEngines up to the point of solving Staged Combustion cycles.
<ferram4>
Sorta kinda
<ferram4>
AS it turns out, they're a horrific pain in the ass
<awang>
What is a "unit" of payload?
<wb99999999>
solving as in...mathematically?
<SpecimenSpiff>
Good news Ferram, hadn't heard an update on procengines recently
<SpecimenSpiff>
Although based on that last UI I saw, I'm almost afraid of that mod
<ferram4>
Yeah, it's... not as simple as gas generators.
<SpecimenSpiff>
I really anticapted something much simpler
<soundnfury>
ferram4: what did you _think_ would happen ;)
<ferram4>
Oh, the UI will likely get more complicated.
<ferram4>
Though I'm planning to have some settings that allow it to put together _something_ that works
<ferram4>
Though with no promises that the design will actually be any good.
<ferram4>
Just that the engine will, ya know, not blow up.
<SpecimenSpiff>
When I first thought of making that mod years back before I realized how gross it was, I was thinking simple sliders for the basic config options. fuel type, isp, thrust, mass, number of ignitions, nozzle type. And some math to limit the sliders to each other in reasonable ranges
<ferram4>
soundnfury, I expected a system with everything nicely pre-defined would be simple to solve, compared to the rather arbitrary turbine pressure ratio in the gas generator.
<ferram4>
But, as it turns out, that is not the case.
<wb99999999>
BTW ferram4, after you told me about the H2O2 not counting in RD-107 Isp fact, I started to think of Soviet terminologies
* soundnfury
tries not to laugh
<wb99999999>
you know they call staged combustion "gas generator" cycle
<ferram4>
This doesn't actually surprise me. It does produce gas.
<wb99999999>
but it makes more sense if the only other production engines uses separate generator gas
<blowfish>
ferram4: curious how much things like injector efficiency impact performance
<blowfish>
wb99999999: the preburner in staged combustion engines and the gas generator in gg engines are effectively the same component
<ferram4>
blowfish, for gas generator cycles, doesn't seem to be too much on the pump side, but of course, bigger Isp losses. For staged combustion, it seems a lot more on the pump side because of the extra power needed but the perofrmance doesn't drop nearly as much
<SpecimenSpiff>
So does anyone have the ability to answer some questions on making a addon UI work properly? I've got two hopefully minor issues in my mod
<wb99999999>
I mean if you think retroactively
<wb99999999>
if the only other thing you've ever worked on uses separate reagent for the gas
<wb99999999>
what would you call a staged combustion engine?
<blowfish>
bbl
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<wb99999999>
yo should I fix the plume for the Real Engines RD-180 and RD-191?
<SpecimenSpiff>
if you can, by all means
<wb99999999>
it's just a simple oversight
<wb99999999>
just copy from RD171
<wb99999999>
problem being I am no coder whatsoever and never used GIt
<awang>
How do I add SoundingPayload to a rocket?
<soundnfury>
awang: you need a servicemodule tank I think? or a -HP tank
<Qboid>
[#9] title: fix my engines | I install this and my engines no work. I have real solar mod and they said tylerraiz stream I need realism mod and with mod my engines are blubber sparks and noise but it not starting. I have the liqu... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/SovietRockets/issues/9
<Raidernick>
he opened a new issue
<Raidernick>
check THAT mess
<SpecimenSpiff>
Id assume he's not a native english speaker
<Raidernick>
i can't even read that
<Bornholio>
i'm off to comment on each, cheer me on
<Raidernick>
he says he is blubbering sparks in liquid dynamite
<SpecimenSpiff>
and who is this tylerraiz he keeps mentioning/
<Raidernick>
he's a ksp streamer
<Raidernick>
i already asked him
<Raidernick>
he said this guy was in his stream earlier
<Raidernick>
but he didn't tell him to spam me
<Raidernick>
lol
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<awang>
"liquid dynamite"?
<awang>
"please send refund"
<awang>
Seems less like a clueless player and more like a troll to me
<awang>
but idk
<Raidernick>
i don't know
<wb99999999>
liquid dynamite is just "not-dynamite" isn't it
<Raidernick>
it could be google translate or something
<Raidernick>
i've tried talking to non english speakers before
<Raidernick>
and it get weird crap like this
<Raidernick>
or he could just be an idiot
<wb99999999>
let me 'ave a look at it
<Raidernick>
he opened 4 issues
<wb99999999>
I am not native English speaker either you know
<Raidernick>
each one is more nonsensical than the last
<wb99999999>
but it doesn't matter
<wb99999999>
...sorry what?
<wb99999999>
I thought liquid dynamite was a joke
<Raidernick>
blubber sparks and liquid dynamite propellant oxidation
<Raidernick>
makes sense
<wb99999999>
this person needs professional attention
<wb99999999>
I can't help him
<awang>
soundnfury: Yeah, looks like it's just the GUI
<awang>
Right-clicking again shows right stats
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<awang>
Clicking a slider without right-clicking again makes the left side of the fraction show the correct value, but the right side is still incorrect
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<awang>
Bornholio: You're actually being helpful?!
<wb99999999>
we should totally have liquid dynamite as a resource in subsequent RO release
<awang>
I mean, we're 99.99% of the way there
<Bornholio>
sure, i'm sending him his full refund
<Raidernick>
lol
<wb99999999>
Okay, I'm not judging but his English looks a lot like something that has been Google translated from an Eastern European language
<wb99999999>
I remember seeing this kind of crap on some Steam greenlight and early access submissions
<Raidernick>
ding ding on my phone
<Raidernick>
means i got another issue post
<Raidernick>
let's see what it says now
<Raidernick>
"crashing in heat"
<wb99999999>
btw I think there's something weird with the generic 2 kn thruster config in the dev build
<wb99999999>
could someone double check me?
<Bornholio>
lol seen dogs do that crashing in heat
<Raidernick>
his rocket is "stuck in upper position of shoe"
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<wb99999999>
someone hold him down so he can generate more memes for us
<Bornholio>
google translate?
<wb99999999>
If that's the case it's probably translated from an Eastern European language
<Raidernick>
" I have sent rocket up and down in explosive casket"
<SpecimenSpiff>
thats amazing even for google translate
<wb99999999>
maybe it's from a software of his origin
<wb99999999>
you can do a lot worse than google you know
<Raidernick>
he built his own translator?
<Raidernick>
seems legit
<wb99999999>
no, I mean he's using a software from his country
<wb99999999>
google has some of the best machine-translation augorithim
<Raidernick>
does anyone have any idea what country he could be from?
<wb99999999>
...damn I miss spelled the shit bad
<Raidernick>
maybe find someone who speaks his language
<wb99999999>
no idea
<gazpachian>
ksp is pretty big in russia, would also explain his mod preference
<wb99999999>
and it would match my hypothesis
<gazpachian>
And I looove me some confirmation bias
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<wb99999999>
Bornholio just leave him alone for now and if I may, can you help me double check a thing?
<Bornholio>
Raidernick you brought us some entertainment today :P
<Bornholio>
sure
<wb99999999>
I think the generic 2kn thruster (the larger one) has some oversight in its config in dev
<wb99999999>
the thrust is wrong
<wb99999999>
it was good in the main build tho
<Bornholio>
let me take a peek
<Raidernick>
Bornholio, thanks for responding to him i'm actually going to leave his issues there for entertainment
<wb99999999>
thx
<Bornholio>
any config in particular
<wb99999999>
not sure
<wb99999999>
check the big ones maybe, hydrazine and MMH+NTO
<wb99999999>
I'm getting like 0.1 kN in game
<wb99999999>
Raidernick I think I figured out where he's from
<Raidernick>
?
<wb99999999>
Czech
<Raidernick>
you ran it through translate backwards?
<Raidernick>
to see if it made sense?
<Raidernick>
lol
<wb99999999>
I googled his name and got a League of Legend account
<Raidernick>
ah
<wb99999999>
I traced to some other text
<wb99999999>
and put it in google
<wb99999999>
google says it's Czech language
<Bornholio>
yes wb99999999 they are broken, unknown thrust for most, the most recent ECM change stuff must have broken several engines
<wb99999999>
well I have done my part XD
<Bornholio>
what you need to post and issue in broken english proclaiming your need for a refund
<gazpachian>
Did he get one?
<Bornholio>
sure, in full
<wb99999999>
keep doing this and I'll choke myself laughing lool
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<Qboid>
[#11] title: configuration of missile blankets | I have add more chip to keyboard and now the mod cause my game to load. With load I have been see that beyond cartridge pack the computer have evolution of access in the zone of violators for the link... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/SovietRockets/issues/11
<wb99999999>
someone need to archive this
<Raidernick>
"missile blankets"
<Raidernick>
sounds comfy
<Bornholio>
i got chips in my keyboard, sparyed out my mouth from laughing
<wb99999999>
I think Rokker would love a missile blanket
<Rokker>
wb99999999: toasty
<wb99999999>
make sure it's American missile
<Bornholio>
this one is... hard, its almost intelligible. Like a parrot in an IT shop
<Raidernick>
if he really added ram to his keyboard
<Raidernick>
his computer is REALLY old
<Raidernick>
lol
<Raidernick>
remember the atari 800
<Raidernick>
or "cartridge"
<Raidernick>
if that's his version of ram
<wb99999999>
the part that confuses me the most is "causing the game to load"
<wb99999999>
how is that an issue? does he want it to not load?
<Raidernick>
no idea there
<wb99999999>
maybe just send him the wrong version of FAR and crash his game
<wb99999999>
then he'd be satisfied since the game is not loading anymore
<Raidernick>
lol
<awang>
wb99999999: I don't think GitHub allows you to delete issues, actually
<awang>
So no need to worry about archiving it
<awang>
Actually... idk what about if he/she edits the issue
<Raidernick>
ANOTHER issue
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<Bornholio>
wb99999999 did you make an issue?
<Bornholio>
I have assembled new craft but jiggle tubes have caused explosive kidney failure.
<Bornholio>
he pissed himself he is so happy
<Raidernick>
wtf is a jiggle tube
<Bornholio>
The ask for those pick on the Imgur....
<Bornholio>
picks
<Raidernick>
he probably uses one of those russian picture websites
<Bornholio>
off to eat dinner, can't wait to see the issues when i return :P
<Raidernick>
everytime i click those they popup and virus like crazy
<Qboid>
[#1769] title: Broken 2 kN thruster in dev | Some change seems to have broken the most of the configs for the generic 2kN thruster. and causing incorrect or no thrust. Awaiting further investigation. | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/issues/1769
<wb99999999>
shit I thought that dot was a tint on my screen
<wb99999999>
edited
<wb99999999>
damn it, broken English is infectious
<Raidernick>
Bornholio, you got a response
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<wb99999999>
here went Bornholio
<Bornholio>
lol, sending monies! ALt-F12
<Raidernick>
Bornholio, I'm thinking he tried calling a real repair guy