<wb99999999>
disclaimer: I wasn't complaining, just saying
<awang>
wb99999999: "Principia" pings hum too
<awang>
s/hum/him
<Qboid>
awang meant to say: wb99999999: "Principia" pings him too
<egg|zzz|egg>
mooo
<patamorphism>
ok thanks Starwaster. I found a few forum posts by Nathan that gives me a rough idea of what to do
<wb99999999>
man the Apollo SM have a lot of fuel in it
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<Starwaster>
Don't want to run out of fuel when you're flying to the corner store to get some astronaut ice cream
<wb99999999>
even for this purpose it is still an over-engineered space craft
<wb99999999>
something something engine designed for direct landing something something omit a lunar capture/descent initialization stage
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<Bornholio>
Apollo was able to do its missions without a crew loss, and its SM seperate lunarlander/ascent stage system reduced risk from the 60% success range to 90+%. Tolerated a major system failure and still got the crew back. If the russians had gone direct I think three more cosmonauts would have been on stamps
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<wb99999999__>
You're right and I'm going to beat up this IRC client until it stops log me on and off and spam the chat room with notification
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<wb99999999__>
BTW did the soviets even considered direct landing?
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<Bornholio>
yes, so did nasa. Nasa tossed it after the risk study came back.
<lamont>
its probably more that your total time to orbit is too low
<lamont>
although the staging analysis might be getting confused
<wb99999999>
what happened is as soon as I separate the solids, it loses track of everything including stage numbers
<lamont>
does “reinit stage analysis” fix it?
<wb99999999>
when I separate the solids I'm still in my pitch program, and the number countdown simply stops
<wb99999999>
it freezes
<lamont>
yeah, you probably need to whack the button
<wb99999999>
I did, and it fixes it for a short while
<wb99999999>
then when my pitch program's over it lost track again because it didn't count the now gone solids as a stage
<wb99999999>
so I had to change the stage number to 1 less
<wb99999999>
and push that button again
<lamont>
yep
<wb99999999>
and it'd finally go back to normal again
<wb99999999>
so this is expected?
<lamont>
the rewrite should be less fussy
<lamont>
yep
<wb99999999>
okay, no problem then
<lamont>
yeah that’s “known bug”
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<wb99999999>
what is the mechanics that made this happen?
<lamont>
the problem is trying to track kerbal stage numbers
<wb99999999>
I see
<lamont>
and the fact that its a game means that players can do shit to drag the icons all over the place while in flight, which creates headaches
<wb99999999>
lol I understand
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<wb99999999>
I did read the part about this in the wiki so I avoided dragging stuff around in flight
<lamont>
NASA does not usually go “oh fuck, put the fairings in the wrong stage again, lets fix that real quick” while the boosters are lit and its ascending...
<lamont>
yeah, but the problem is more that i have to try to think around people doing that
<wb99999999>
maybe you can have a locking button
<lamont>
the new approach is much simpler, it does best effort most of the time, then just falls back to essentially reinitializing staging for you, and doesn’t require users inputting num stages at all
<lamont>
it helps that the space shuttle PEG algorithm is a lot better and more accurate as well
<wb99999999>
why not have players press the button to lock the stage PEG uses to calculate the guidance
<wb99999999>
after you press it PEG just don't care about any changes?
<lamont>
i think i’ve got it working so that its dynamic
<wb99999999>
that's even better
<lamont>
its just static enough so that it correctly rejects sep motors while including the terminal stage as it burns down to low dV — and then its just dynamic and runs through the list every time until it finds as much dV as it thinks it needs
<wb99999999>
awesome
<wb99999999>
I have to personally thank you for this, I have always wanted something to fly the post-gravity turn phase of a launch for me
<lamont>
yeah the existing PEG code was written thinking it needed to be static and then i needed to deal with patching in all the dynamic stuff — the new PEG stuff is written assuming it’ll probably be dynamic from tick-to-tick and then just track enough to fix a few edge conditions
<wb99999999>
before I had to hand steer the upper stage to insertion XD
<lamont>
yeah, i could never figure out how to fly upper stages below about 0.70 TWR without them falling back into the atmosphere
<wb99999999>
it's surprisingly easy with MJ
<lamont>
now i understand i needed to be a lot more aggressive with pitching up and raising my apoapsis above my inertion orbit
<wb99999999>
my trick was having the surface information display and watching my vertical speed constantly
<wb99999999>
but yeah, it's a lot of pitch up and down over and over
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<awang>
Are there any plans to make proc tank utilization automatic?
<awang>
Also, why does FAR think that a cylindrical tank's cross section varies slightly?
<ferram4>
Probably because it does.
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<awang>
A cylindrical proc tank?
<ferram4>
FAR's pulling straight from the mesh / collider.
<awang>
Hm
<awang>
I thought that a proc tank would have a more or less perfectly cylindrical mesh
<awang>
or collider
<awang>
So I thought it would have been pretty much perfectly flat
<ferram4>
Well, no. It'll be an approximation because collisions and rendering of curved surfaces is a lot harder than flat polygons.
<awang>
Pre-made cylindrical tanks don't seem to show the same behavior, so I thought that something's off
<awang>
Ah... that's something that I wouldn't have known
<ferram4>
Well, then that indicates that the proc tank mesh / collider generation is inaccurate.
<awang>
Hm
<awang>
Guess that's another thing to put on the to-look-at list
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<Starwaster>
lamont, corrective steering is actually really good about the pitchup thing if your low TWR stage is starting to fall back in.
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<Starwaster>
Or at least it WAS really good about it until SOMEONE did something to it
<Starwaster>
SOME ONE
<lamont>
lol
<lamont>
PEG is better
<Starwaster>
some dastard went and munged the code
<Starwaster>
yeah except that it can still fail to converge and then I have to fall back on classic ascent and want to do corrective steering
<lamont>
yeah i feel vaguely guilty about that, but i’ve got about 98% of the space shuttle PEG written, i just need to find and kill however many bugs still are in it
<Starwaster>
well go undo what you did to it and you wont feel guilty anymore... what was the new version even supposed to do?
<blowfish>
Starwaster: ungrateful much?
<Starwaster>
sorry that you think that
<Starwaster>
but we're talking about massive massive changes that were made to part of MJ's code base resulting in lose of functionality in olrder sections
<blowfish>
what do you have that PEG doesn't converge on though? I've only seen it fail on LVs that have such a short time to orbit that they require coast periods
<Starwaster>
LOST... functionality
<blowfish>
also normal builds of MJ still exist
<Starwaster>
doesnt matter what kinds of LV because what I said wasn't about PEG
<Starwaster>
it's about OLDER functions
<Starwaster>
that are broken
<blowfish>
let's not forget that PEG/MJ _is_ still in development
<blowfish>
so bugs are to be expected
<blowfish>
now, if the changes got released as an official MJ build without that bug being fixed, then there might be cause for concern
<wb99999999>
everybody chill
<awang>
Uu
<awang>
I just created a new save
<awang>
Buildings are fully upgraded
<wb99999999>
sandbox?
<awang>
Definitely career
<SpecimenSpiff>
what profile did you pick when you started kct?
<awang>
RP-0
<awang>
100% sure
<awang>
And upon restarting the game, a new save has unupgraded buildings
<wb99999999>
just a hiccup maybe
<wb99999999>
thor/delta is a really good rocket, it would be even better if the burn out TWR is not so extreme
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<blowfish>
wb99999999: ehh, Delta is really an underpowered 2nd stage for Thor
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<wb99999999>
you sure?
<wb99999999>
Thor don't have a lot of lift off thrust to start with
<blowfish>
it is true that simply by liftoff thrust you can't add much 2nd stage
<blowfish>
but you can add quite a lot more than delta
<wb99999999>
maybe an agena?
<blowfish>
agena yes
<blowfish>
(and that flew)
<awang>
What's the correct way of getting the current KSC location?
<SpecimenSpiff>
as a player or a mod developer?
<awang>
mod dev
<SpecimenSpiff>
in my mod, i check active vessel lat/lon on the pad
<SpecimenSpiff>
dont know if thats "correct" but it works
<SpecimenSpiff>
Im sure you could hook into kscswitcher to get the name, etc
<SpecimenSpiff>
but im just checking lat/long against my own config, which has the same coordinates
<awang>
Hm
<awang>
Does KSCSwitcher require special handling?
<awang>
For a bit of context, I'm looking into why StageRecovery thinks that the launchpad is ~3500km away from Cape Canaveral when launching from the Cape
<SpecimenSpiff>
ah, I bet stagerecovery doesnt have a proper rss config
<SpecimenSpiff>
that sounds like its using kerbal space center lat/long
<SpecimenSpiff>
yeah, stage recovery says nothing about rss support
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<SpecimenSpiff>
hm, I found the code where it calculated distance to KSC, and that should handle RSS and KSC just fine
<SpecimenSpiff>
but it's not doing a degrees to radians conversion. I'd have to know more about the calls in question to know if that's necessary
<Qboid>
[#6] title: Distance calculations don't account for different launch sites? | I usually play with the RO set of mods, and when hopping around launch sites, I noticed that some launch sites have massively reduced distance modifiers compared to others.... | https://github.com/magico13/StageRecovery/issues/6
<awang>
SpecimenSpiff: ...I actually created that issue
<awang>
Oops
<awang>
Guess it's about time I got around to looking at it
<SpecimenSpiff>
looking over his source on github, it's not that complex. if you've got a dev environment set up, you could uncomment his debug statements there and probably figure it out in minutes
<SpecimenSpiff>
if the ksc lat/lon doesnt match your launch site, then that's a bug in how KSCswitcher/RSS works. If that matches, then it's probably the degrees/radians issue
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<awang>
!tell SpecimenSpiff Don't have an ideal dev environment set up, but I'll definitely take a look later today. Thanks for the tips! Definitely a good start
<Qboid>
awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<wb99999999>
wow, my tank exploded during ascent due to too much insulation
<wb99999999>
this is a thing...
<awang>
wat
<awang>
That doesn't make any sense
<wb99999999>
so you know about starwaster's heatpump right?
<wb99999999>
when you attach a heat pump radiator to a tank, it automatically add basically maximum insulation to it
<wb99999999>
usually some of the heat during a fast ascent will be absorbed by your propellant
<wb99999999>
but in this case I think the insulation is just too much so there's no place for all the heat to go
<wb99999999>
the skin temperature quickly climb and it overheated
<wb99999999>
this is what happens when you simulate real life too much
<wb99999999>
I have a proof, just removing the insulation and it doesn't do this anymore
<awang>
Huh
<awang>
Didn't know about the part
<awang>
But it makes sense, game-wise
<wb99999999>
I mean it make sense physically, just a bit counter-intuitive
<awang>
I guess?
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<awang>
Seems a bit odd for skin temp to be a limiting factor on an insulated tank
<awang>
Like what part exactly would fail?
<wb99999999>
an usual proc tank
<wb99999999>
just imagine the tank surface melting because there's REALLY no where to dissipate the heat...
<wb99999999>
plus PEG tends to go shallow
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Why is the tank being exposed to so much heat in the first place?
<wb99999999>
it is not that much heat, it's just a usual launch
<wb99999999>
but you know, a "normal" launch do involve going mach 5 in lower atmosphere
<wb99999999>
that's why you have fairing
<wb99999999>
aerodynamic force aside
<awang>
Yeah
<awang>
I just didn't know the tanks were exposed to that much heat
<wb99999999>
my point is that it is actually not any more heat than usual
<wb99999999>
but the shallow trajectory produced by my ascent profile AND the over-insulated tank have created a boundary case
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<awang>
Makes sense
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<Arynnia>
Hey, I've lost my VAB avionics display - how do I get it back ?
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<ProjectThoth>
Arynnia: Ask politely and provide your address and ZIP code, we'll have it at your doorstep in four to ten business days.
<Arynnia>
The trolling at 2 am is not really funny.
<Arynnia>
A serious answer would be appreciated.
<Arynnia>
seeing none
<Maxsimal>
Arynnia: It's been moved to the Rp0 button, under the avionics tab, afaik. Not at game to double check.
<Arynnia>
RP-0 button? O.o
<Maxsimal>
There's an RP-0 button for the mod now, yes. It shows you a bunch of stuff, for things like yearly costs and astronaut training. I assume you're playing Dev?
<Maxsimal>
It looks like a green £
<Arynnia>
No, I'm playing the current 1.2.2 release
<Maxsimal>
oh... then I dunno :P Sorry.
<Rokker>
Arynnia: ummmm
<Rokker>
try... i
<Rokker>
i think its i
<Rokker>
possibly
<Arynnia>
I tried all the main keys
<Rokker>
try em again
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* Arynnia
will try tomorrow: game crashed and it's 2:30p.
<Arynnia>
2:30a*
<Rokker>
Arynnia: well it wont be a problem when you open it again
<Arynnia>
so easiest solution is to crash the damn game. Ok.
<Arynnia>
I'll try I if it happens again. Thanks :)
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<wb99999999>
*attempted topic about soviet rocket motors
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<Maxsimal>
o/
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<patamorphism>
playing on a low powered laptop brings an interesting difficulty bump. Not only do I have to optimize this Mars architecture for mass, delta-v, life support and power, but also part count and triangle density
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I have the same issue on my i7 4790K + 16GB DDR3 + 980Ti ... KSP doesnt care about PC bling-bling :P
<patamorphism>
My 4690 could at least handle 60 parts, this not so much lol
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<patamorphism>
Is there an engine that uses aerozine/nto that doesn't require ullage?
<Maxsimal|Work>
RCS? 1kn thruster?
<Maxsimal|Work>
Not at game to check if there is a config for aerozine RCS, I think there is though.
<patamorphism>
Need something with a lot more oomph, ideally 30-100kN
<Maxsimal|Work>
That doesn't require ullage? I don't think any such engine exists
<Maxsimal|Work>
Regardless of fuel type
<Maxsimal|Work>
anyway, afk, bbl
<patamorphism>
Ah drat, thanks anyways
<UmbralRaptor>
SRMs are unlikely to require ullage.
<patamorphism>
Problem is they'll weigh way too much. I'm trying to design a control system for a horizontal mars lander w/ aeroshell. Idea is to pop the top half and use some engine to keep attitude while the bottom half stays on
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<regex>
patamorphism use RCS then, or a ddrogue chute.
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<patamorphism>
I'm still doing experiments with RCS but so far its not handling it
<Maxsimal|Phone_>
I may have told a lie, btw, check the lmde, forget if that needed ullage
<patamorphism>
Drogue actually might work though. Oh, and the descent engines are LMDE, and they were too unstable :)
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<Maxsimal|Phone_>
Mars descent?
<patamorphism>
Yes
<Maxsimal|Phone_>
Yeah... You could also starts firing engines while you're ullaged from the high q aerobraking. Lmde throttle low so that will help
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<borntosleep>
RealIRSU has Methane engines that work good for descent /ascent on mars.
<borntosleep>
15kN and 60kN
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<Bornholio>
SR's are great for certain spots in mars descent, get nice high TWR at just the right time to get the atmosphere to grab you and get slow eough to get drogues out
<Bornholio>
don't waster your time on heat shields, a shielded tank will work just fine unless you hammer it, infaltables are good if you get stability correct did this 70t ISRU/MAV lander https://imgur.com/a/6AwpB
<patamorphism>
Might look into RealIRSU, thanks. @Bornholio I'm not using heat shields, just a large fairing
<Bornholio>
RealISRU still needs work, its got lots of cool parts in it but work on realism is needed hopefully a bunch of this years research will help. The engines are nasa best guess notional stats
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<patamorphism>
Well it looks like the drogue idea is out, by the time its safe to deploy its way too late :/
<Bornholio>
need to go in high drag, or retro engough to kill that speed, try comming in at 35km PE
<patamorphism>
Hm I went for a 60km PE, I'll try 35 next
<Bornholio>
below that it will suck you down too fast, much above 40 and you will not aerocapture
<Bornholio>
at least comming in higher transit speeds
<patamorphism>
Oh I'm not capturing, this is from a 500km x 500km orbit
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<Bornholio>
why was there an alert from the police about danger in stanley park, cause thats where Seven ate 9
<Bornholio>
wb99999999 :)
<wb99999999>
har har har...
<wb99999999>
I had one of the weirdest thing ever happened to my fuel tank last night
<wb99999999>
it overheated during launch, due to TOO MUCH insulation
<wb99999999>
can you believe it lol
<Bornholio>
did you do a revert before it?
<wb99999999>
nah, it's actually what happened
<Bornholio>
or timewarp higher than x100
<wb99999999>
you know about Starwaster's heat pump right?
<Bornholio>
yup
<wb99999999>
that thing adds more or less maximum insulation to the tank attached
<wb99999999>
so PEG produced a shallow ascent, insulated tank have too much heat on the skin and can't go anywhere, the whole thing overheated and BOOM!
<Bornholio>
shouldn't even be on before space anyway, they realistically would be near zero efficiency at atmospheric temps
<wb99999999>
it's not on
<wb99999999>
it passively add insulation
<wb99999999>
the cryo cooling part doesn't matter in this case
<Bornholio>
pretty sure he will remove that after the new changes to RF he's working on
<Starwaster>
correct
<wb99999999>
yeah, but I think this is not unintended behavior at all
<Starwaster>
in fact my current working copy doesn't have it because RF will allow more control
<Starwaster>
over insulation
<Starwaster>
uhm wb99999999 what was the skinMaxTemp of that part that exploded?
<wb99999999>
I wasn't recording it, but I am confident that I can reproduce it later
<wb99999999>
again I don't think there's anything to do with any mod in particular
<wb99999999>
usually heat on the tank would leak into the propellant and you have a larger volume to accommodate the same amount of it
<Starwaster>
it is normal that the outer skin will heat up more since it can't conduct into the interior fast enough but I haven't had anye xplode on me
<Starwaster>
the max temp would probably have to be in the neighborhood of.... 500K or so... give or take a few hundred
<wb99999999>
Yes, it's a boundary case where I was using a balloon tank, the ascent is rather shallow with PEG and the passive insulation is probably too much to start with
<Bornholio>
wb99999999 install includes DRE?
<wb99999999>
yes
<Starwaster>
what balloon tank? Which part?
<wb99999999>
proc fuel tank, balloon cryo
<Bornholio>
dev or release?
<wb99999999>
release
<wb99999999>
lol why are you guys so serious? I think this is just an extreme case
<Starwaster>
just have to be certain
<wb99999999>
minus that I am confident I can reproduce it
<Bornholio>
too many hours of testing tansk :P
<Starwaster>
and don't call me Sirius
<waerloga>
wb99999999: space is serious business, and this is REALISM overhaul :P
<Starwaster>
"Hey, space is a tough place where wimps eat flaming plasma death"
<Starwaster>
(name that quote)
<waerloga>
Starwaster: amusingly enough, airplane is being played in the living room
<Starwaster>
:)
<wb99999999>
so yeah, I agree with Starwaster on the no where to dissipate part
<wb99999999>
almost sure that's what happened
<Starwaster>
yeah but I don't see that happen on my side and I'm cranking the MLI up to 100 layers (Heat Pump sets conductivity to the equivalent of roughly 60 layers)
<wb99999999>
maybe try a balloon tank
<wb99999999>
they always have some strange thermal behavior
<Bornholio>
starwaster testing your newCryo need any mods in particular in additon to regular RF install?
<Starwaster>
right now I'm focusing on RF alone
<wb99999999>
I'll be back and try to mess around this situation a bit, I'll let you guys know what turns up
<Starwaster>
I do also test with HP but it's more to see how the current HP build (which isn't public) does. The current official HP release would definitely have issues
<Starwaster>
stock radiators should work though they're horridly overpowered since they have either no resource cost or a flat rate cost.
<Bornholio>
k, noticed i have no plumes with a clean install and dependencies
<Starwaster>
with a large tank and no active cooling you should see heat leaks in the mid 10s to low hundreds depending on whether you're lit up or in shadow
<Bornholio>
where should i see changes?
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<awang>
\o
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<Starwaster>
Bornholio, actuib menu of tanks will have MLI Layer number from 0-100 (number of layer pairs) which will decrease conductivity between skin and part. If you crank it up high enough you can reduce total conduction heat (skin-inner) to 10s-100s of watts
<Bornholio>
having problems gettings anythign working :(
<Starwaster>
more specific?
<Bornholio>
Clean Stock + normal RF then replace the RF folder gives me bunch of errors and missing engine modules
<Starwaster>
maybe an issue with dependencies.
<Starwaster>
You need the latest EngineSolver linked to
<Bornholio>
silly question, 1.2.2? before i go nuts figuring out what i screwed up
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<awang>
Is this dev RF?
<Bornholio>
no
<Bornholio>
newCryo
<Bornholio>
so yes,
<awang>
What's new about it?
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<Bornholio>
insulation/cryo tanks
<Bornholio>
specificly, its tunable in how much insulation you add
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<awang>
I see
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<ProjectThoth>
I don't see.
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<Bornholio>
starwaster if i install newCryo Branch its missing a plugins folder. do i need to re-use the old ones or is it a complile my own issue.
<Starwaster>
I don't know why you don't have a plugins folder but you can just grab the dll and copy it over an existing installation. I'm compiling for 1.2.2 but the changes can easily be merged onto 1.3.0 (but.... RO is still on KSP 1.2.2 itself)
<Bornholio>
the github brach doesn't have a plugin folder in it. Not sure why, neither does master, but release zips do
<Bornholio>
branch
<patamorphism>
it means plugins isn't tracked by git. releases aren't just a straight download of the repo, the maintainer creates a build locally and then uploads the zipped build
<awang>
egg|zzz|egg: Why is Principia showing two different parabolas for a suborbital sounding rocket?
<egg|zzz|egg>
awang: so, that's what will happen if you go through the surface of the earth and back up, because earth doesn't have a surface right :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
awang: also set your navball to KCKF if you want to see where you'll land (your trajectory will then be shown in the surface frame)
<awang>
Uh, right
<awang>
I thought Principia would have stopped plotting when the vessel hits the Earth once
<egg|zzz|egg>
awang: we're not really aware of the surface :-p
<awang>
wat
<awang>
Interesting
<egg|zzz|egg>
awang: you can file a feature request for us to do that though, it seems like it confuses users :-p
<awang>
As long as I'm not the only user in "users", sure
<awang>
Guess that'd also explain why the predicted impact was well inside the globe too
<egg|zzz|egg>
awang: yes, so we do try to be "helpful", when a periapsis is underground we say "hey there's an impact ahead, good luck with that"
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<awang>
How do I properly judge turbojet performance?
<awang>
Like a turbojet with ~13kN of thrust is in sone of the supersonic nodes, while a turbojet with ~16 kN is in the start node
<awang>
How do I figure out what about the supersonic engine makes it better?
<awang>
Compression ratio?
<awang>
Air intake?
<awang>
Something else?
<UmbralRaptor>
Thrust vs airspeed vs specific fuel consumption?
<Maxsimal>
!tell Pap: Seeing some weirdness with biomes from different launch sites - Woomera is surrounded by grasslands, for instance?
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
Maxsimal: I'm not very familiar with Australian geography, but should it not be grasslands?
<Maxsimal>
Pap: No, it's a desert(probably badlands, if we had that biome). And its desert in the main branch. same from Whitesands, also is grasslands.