<NathanKell>
yo blowfish. Quick question. Sorry I totally forgot about this before the 1.3 release, but IIRC Starwaster mentioned an issue where resource costs were being added twice. Was that fixed?
<blowfish>
I vaguely recall that
<blowfish>
if it was merged to master it was fixed on the 1.2 branch
<NathanKell>
KevinStarwaster do you know if that's RF too or just MFS?
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<Pap>
o/
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 17:55:55]: "one other thing we were going to look at: redistributing relative node cost within an era. So e.g. staged combustion might be a bit more expensive than regular rocketry, and hydrolox rather more expensive; airplane stuff might be cheaper; etc."
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 23:31:38]: "looking at costs, Maxsimal, I tend to agree we need to inflate cost based on number of stages / decouplers / something."
<blowfish>
hmm, GetModuleCost() doesn't seem to be subtracting defaultCost
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<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7EVH
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 665a3ae NathanKell: Merge branch 'master' into Developmental
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7EVd
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 7f47036 NathanKell: Moar data
<SpecimenSpiff>
About to go for lunar flyby/impact with it
<NathanKell>
Good luck! :)
<SpecimenSpiff>
Is there a good way to figure out when lunar an/dn is going to happen from the tracking center or pad? Or do I need to put a target in orbit and use that?
<NathanKell>
When the moon will reach its AN/Dn?
<NathanKell>
or where in your orbit you should burn?
<SpecimenSpiff>
I want to figure out when to launch
<NathanKell>
Ah
<NathanKell>
Well, you have a liquid kick stage
<SpecimenSpiff>
so that I can do my TLI at an/dn
<NathanKell>
So a few m/s either way will tune things
<gazpachian>
specimenspiff, you're the guy doing the Argentinian space program right? :)
<SpecimenSpiff>
I did my solid attempt the other day, and got within 22megaclicks, without precession I would have made it
<NathanKell>
As long as the moon is at least 1.5 days or so away from its AN/DN you'll be fine
<SpecimenSpiff>
gazpachian, yes
<NathanKell>
Your TLi can take anywhere from 1-6 days or more depending on how you burn
<NathanKell>
so you can tune arrival
<SpecimenSpiff>
I did my solid attempt using mechjeb to launch into the plane, and that put me 5 days after an
<NathanKell>
launch into plane is...not meaningful in this instance
<NathanKell>
It will just launch you during that day, whenever your relative inclination is lowest.
<NathanKell>
You want the moon to be a bit more than halfway from zenith to DN (or nadir to AN)
<NathanKell>
that'll make the moon hit DN/AN in about 3 days.
<NathanKell>
so set up a burn at your AN/DN respectively that takes ~3 days to get to the moon, and tune (using +/-prograde delta V, or radial if you have to) until you hit.
<SpecimenSpiff>
but I dont see an easy way to figure out when the AN/DN is by just eyeballing it
<SpecimenSpiff>
unless I just launch, and orbit until a good time hoping my batteries and lox last
<NathanKell>
uh...
<NathanKell>
we're talking *days* here
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<NathanKell>
Just launch when the moon is a bit more than halfway from its zenith/nadir to equatorial
<gazpachian>
Doesn't mechjeb have some "target time to AN/DN" option?
<NathanKell>
Ah it might
<SpecimenSpiff>
if I time it right, yes. so why I'm trying to figure out how to get something ebtter than eyeballing the moons orbit
<SpecimenSpiff>
I think ill just launch to verify my ascent settings, then revert for better timing
<NathanKell>
I don't know of a way better than eyeballing, but tbh eyeballing works even with solids. It should be *fine* if you can control TLI.
<KevinStarwaster>
NathanKell, yes, applies to Real Fuels too. Same example, X200-16 is going to be 1550 empty.
<NathanKell>
KevinStarwaster: By "us" I mean RO
<NathanKell>
And we generally cost dry because resource costs are part of launch cost not manufacturing cost
<NathanKell>
KSP does that silly cost-wet thing
<KevinStarwaster>
I'm not in an RO game ATM but it's definitely going to be affected unless RO is editing the tank to be empty of resources at the config level... and assign some arbitrary desired cost
<NathanKell>
It does pretty much that yes.
<SpecimenSpiff>
Looks like I might be good, seems like the moon just passed AN a day or so ago, and I have 3800m/sec to do TLI with
<NathanKell>
An RO tank's cost is either near-zero (and RF has a basecost it applies), or it's the cost sans resources (so RF adding resource costs on top is desired).
<NathanKell>
and in the latter case we set basecost = -1 so only resource costs are added
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Excellent!
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Especially since with a 104 you can coast for a bit, then burn normal to correct out-of-plane.
<NathanKell>
Even an hour's cost should let you refine.
<NathanKell>
(after TLI)
<KevinStarwaster>
well as long as it's done consistently across the board you should be golden
<SpecimenSpiff>
I went a little unorthodox on my TLI stage, and used the black arrow upper
<NathanKell>
KevinStarwaster: Yep, it is. Whew! :)
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: ....ah.
<NathanKell>
Then I hope you brought RCS
<SpecimenSpiff>
of course
<NathanKell>
good
<KevinStarwaster>
AND make sure you properly configured your RCS so it has the right propellant.... I can't count the times I've launched something that used mostly aerozine only to discover some key RCS parts were still hydrazine
<KevinStarwaster>
WHY isn't my pod closing the gap to that docking port??? Oh... shit... hydrazine... DAMMIT
<SpecimenSpiff>
done that a few times myself
<SpecimenSpiff>
whee, I love 5 minutes to orbit
<gazpachian>
pfft, anything above 100s is just unneeded gravity losses /s
<SpecimenSpiff>
..especially when I realize I messed up my ascent settings and it tried to coast ...
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7Eoz
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 94ff0be NathanKell: Increase tank costs
<NathanKell>
Pap: do you have 10 minutes or so any time in the next however-long?
<NathanKell>
I'd like to run over some part cost changes with you
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<Raidernick>
NathanKell, is 12424 DV enough to escape earth even with an insanely high twr?
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<Raidernick>
like with the sgt end stages
<NathanKell>
Raidernick: ...Probably?
<NathanKell>
If you go flat early and don't coast much, it's probably ~8800 to orbit. That leaves 3624 for escape
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<Raidernick>
NathanKell, it's a direct ascent to escape yeah
<NathanKell>
so yeah that's probably ok
<lamont>
escape isn’t much more than the moon
<Raidernick>
what seems impossible is with that same DV they said they planned to send pioneer 5 to venus
<Raidernick>
it ended up just being a solar probe
<Raidernick>
but it doesn't seem possible
<Raidernick>
with that dv margin
<NathanKell>
Venus is about 3600m/s at optimal
<NathanKell>
could be even lower
<NathanKell>
In fact with a correctly optimized plane it probably is
<NathanKell>
more like 3500
<Raidernick>
NathanKell, so basically you need a perfect ascent?
<NathanKell>
Pretty much, and into the right plane too
<NathanKell>
not just a "into the plane of the moon" ascent
<Raidernick>
well you can't go much above 28.5 degrees right
<Raidernick>
you will lose a bunch of dv
<Raidernick>
that you don't have
<gazpachian>
Raidernick, it's not all about inclination, right ascension matters too
<NathanKell>
you can indeed. Even ~40 degrees desired inclination doesn't cost much
<NathanKell>
You probably lose a hundred m/s there but gain 200 on the ejection burn.
<NathanKell>
or something like
<gazpachian>
RN, want me to calculate a good parking orbit for you? :)
<Raidernick>
gazpachian, there is no parking orbit
<Raidernick>
it's direct ascent
<gazpachian>
well, a launch window then
<Raidernick>
no need i just want to make sure it's possible to do
<Raidernick>
that way i know i got the ship values correct
<Raidernick>
if NathanKell says it's possible with that budget i'm good
<gazpachian>
alright :)
<NathanKell>
One other thing--the tub for Juno II, was it like Juno I where only the final stage used the better propellant?
<Bornholio>
oh no i'm taking something
<NathanKell>
If so, they might have considered using that on all Baby Sergeants to squeeze a bit more dv out for the Venus mission
<NathanKell>
Pap?
<Raidernick>
NathanKell, the sgt are definitely slightly different than on juno i
<Raidernick>
at least from the data i've seen
<NathanKell>
aha
<Raidernick>
i modified the fasa ones for my juno ii
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<gazpachian>
Only seen an Ariane 5 live before, thanks for the link!
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<awang>
xShadowx: Sorry, had to be away for a dinner meeting with clients
<awang>
KSP was running on a different desktop
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<Pap>
Sorry NathanKell my daughter woke up and had to go console her
<NathanKell>
No problem, family first! :)
<Rokker>
Pap: you
<Pap>
Alright, you need to discuss costs?
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<Rokker>
Pap: did i ever show you the flag damage on the Memphis Belle's Sperry ball turret
<Rokker>
flak
<NathanKell>
Pap: Yeah. We need to revise engine costs a fair bit I'm afraid, and avionics too...
<Pap>
OK NathanKell let me get this sheet uploaded to Google Sheets and we will discuss there
<NathanKell>
ok!
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<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7E6T
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 202cbe5 NathanKell: Block out Titan I as well as Thor
<gazpachian>
acharles: gotta love that TWR
<acharles>
I was eating a slice of pizza during the countdown. I looked down at it for a second, looked back up and it was already passing the launch tower.
<Rokker>
acharles: solidssssssssss
<Rokker>
acharles: also fuck live ariane v launches
<Rokker>
acharles: never watch them
<Rokker>
its just a bunch of ariane commercials
<Bornholio>
i make better animations with KSP, video links people!
<Qboid>
[#490] title: Engine prices need fixing | Reason 1) gutsy-feely. Soviet launchers are so much cheaper than US hardware, this just can't be right.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/490
<NathanKell>
The LR87 in twin mode should be 500
<NathanKell>
The LR91 should be 250
<NathanKell>
the LR105 should probably be about 275.
<NathanKell>
I don't know what we need to do to AJ10 and Agena, I need to look there
<NathanKell>
Guidance needs to go up--the 2m ring to 400, the 3m to 600.
<NathanKell>
The 1m Early to 350, I'd say. Leave the 1m Starting as is.
<NathanKell>
err wait no the 1m starting should be 350 as well I guess.
<NathanKell>
We probably need better 2m and 3m rings as well, I'll take care of that.
<NathanKell>
We also need to lower the increases in engine configs, they often increase things too much.
<NathanKell>
The LR87LH2 should cost 300 (it's a single LR87)
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell created dev (+1 new commit): https://git.io/v7EPY
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev d39efc1 NathanKell: Missed a PF bit.
<travis-ci>
Build #5262 - dev - passed
<travis-ci>
Missed a PF bit.
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<awang>
Uh
<awang>
So
<awang>
Does anyone here play on mac?
<awang>
I may have a questionably legal thing to ask
<NathanKell>
lamont does yeah?
<lamont>
i do
<awang>
Could you try out my KSP install on your computer?
<awang>
If I won't get sued for that
<awang>
I want to know if the issue is just my machine
<awang>
Basically just run and see if it gets to the title screen, and that's it
<lamont>
you’d be better off just posting your KSP.log
<awang>
It's a segfault
<awang>
I don't think there is a log
<Pap>
NathanKell: All of the ones you posted are fixed, the Engine Configs are obviosuly going to take longer and will have to look at closer
<NathanKell>
I'm going through the earliest ones
<NathanKell>
schnobs said the Russian ones are ok and I tend to agree
<NathanKell>
the costs come out about right for R-7s.
<Pap>
NathanKell: For the F-1, the above linked Issue has the cost at 4555 per engine, should I also change the EntryCost to the typical x20 ?
<lamont>
“~/Library/Application Support/Steam/SteamApps/common/Kerbal Space Program/KSP.lo g”
<NathanKell>
No, because there we actually know the R&D cost
<soundnfury>
gah why can't I sleep :(
<NathanKell>
so leave it as is
<NathanKell>
yo snf
<Pap>
That's what I assumed
<soundnfury>
yo NK
<NathanKell>
The H-1s should be 200 I would say not 173, to try to accoutn for volume
<NathanKell>
The J-2s I'd go with an even 2000
<lamont>
and start with a fresh steam install with no mods, turn the graphics down most likely (because macs mostly have old/mobile graphics cards with insufficient ram and horsepower)
<NathanKell>
Wow, the LR87-LH2 will become *such* a bargain
<awang>
lamont: Yeah, I see the log
<awang>
Just doubt there would be anything interesting in it because a segfault means it gets killed before it writes
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: you're determined to punish me for being reluctant to use it, aren't you? :P
<awang>
I used git to version my install, so I'm reasonably sure I don't have weird things lying about
<NathanKell>
I assume there were *some* reasons the J-2 was selected IOTL.
<awang>
git bisect told me the crashes started when I installed RaiderNick's mods, but that doesn't really make sense
<lamont>
wipe your install completely and reinstall
<NathanKell>
but cost was, I am fairly sure, not one of them.
<Raidernick>
awang, it's not my mods
<Raidernick>
you have the wrong version of smokescreen
<awang>
Raidernick: That's what I thought
<lamont>
^ that
<Raidernick>
ckan isn't installing smokescreen right
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<Raidernick>
it's installing the 1.3 version
<awang>
...
<awang>
Wait, really?
<Raidernick>
you need the 1.2.2 version
<Raidernick>
yes
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: restarts maybe? does the lr87 have those?
<awang>
Why would it result in a segfault though?
<Raidernick>
you can even compare it to the smokescreen forum page
<Raidernick>
awang, it has an error in the emitter script
<Raidernick>
anyway use 2.7.2 or 2.7.4
<Raidernick>
not 2.7.5
<Raidernick>
it even says s on the forum page
<Raidernick>
so*
<awang>
Ah, I see you found it earlier in the month
<awang>
Hm
<awang>
Thank you so much!
<awang>
This was driving me crazy
<awang>
How'd you find it?
<Raidernick>
find what
<awang>
Er
<awang>
Figure out the crash was SmokeScreen?
<Raidernick>
i figured it out like an hour ago when lamont told me
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
Wait what
<Raidernick>
i've been getting complaints for over a month i thought it WAS my mod
<Raidernick>
but it's not
<awang>
I see
<Raidernick>
it's the smokescreen partmodule I use that smokescreen was breaking
<awang>
lamont: How'd you do your magic?
<awang>
Hm
<lamont>
not my magic… i just asked the right stpuid questions…
<lamont>
*stupid
<Raidernick>
!tell Sarbian when you are around again ckan is installing smokescreen 2.7.5 in ksp 1.2.2 and causing it to crash
<Qboid>
Raidernick: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Raidernick>
lamont, what version did you switch to
<awang>
lamont: Knowing the questions is pretty important too
<lamont>
2.7.4.0
<awang>
Looks like GitHub is behind on releases
<awang>
Hm
<Raidernick>
lamont, yep that's the working version
<Raidernick>
2.7.3 crashes the game and 2.7.5 crashes the game
<Rokker>
Pap: is that one of the old ones or a new one, i cant tell
<Pap>
It was just picked up again by LGG
<Rokker>
neat
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: countdown mods are some of the oldest mods out there
<Rokker>
Pap: *
<Rokker>
some of the first ones i saw
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* Git is not responding, the commit is sitting in my client waiting to upload, but is stuck at 21% on the download from the changes from before, I will try again after I shower
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [02.08.2017 04:01:16]: "Git is not responding, the commit is sitting in my client waiting to upload, but is stuck at 21% on the download from the changes from before, I will try again after I shower"
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7E9A
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master e2f5b38 NathanKell: Add the LR87/91 configs as sepculative and then have a patch to delete speculative configs. A user can add a simple MM patch to preserve speculative conifgs.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7E9p
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev 73b5c72 NathanKell: Merge branch 'master' into dev
<Pap>
Damnit! Why is it working for you?
<NathanKell>
No idea
<NathanKell>
what branch are you on?
<Pap>
Master
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<Pap>
Maybe there is something going on with the Midwest servers. I cannot pull from RO or RP-0 and even looking at Wikis from other Github pages is going verrry slowly
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<NathanKell>
ah you need to be on Developmental anyway
<NathanKell>
to make the tree changes
<NathanKell>
they shouldn't be made to master, that's pre-launch-cost so as not to mess saves
<NathanKell>
(for those testing the tree)
<Pap>
Got it
<NathanKell>
And yeah, could just be the midwest servers :\
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<NathanKell>
!tell Pap* ok I updated the part pricing, but I wasn't sure what to touch to add that X-405H config so I didn't yet.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pena>
screen ftw..
<awang>
Raidernick: Still get the segfault with SmokeScreen 2.7.4 :/
<awang>
lamont: ^
<awang>
Fun fun fun
<Raidernick>
well then i can't help you
<awang>
Yeah, that's fine
<Raidernick>
i don't troubleshoot ckan installs
<awang>
Totally understandable
<awang>
It'd be nice if we had a more reliable mod manager though
<awang>
Having to install things manually gets old pretty quick
<lamont>
yeah copy your existing ksp install to a backup directory somewhere, wipe it flat and download from steam, then start adding mods back until you find what blows it up
<lamont>
or go the other way
<awang>
Well, there was git bisect...
<awang>
But I'll start again
<awang>
Compare after to see if something's off
<awang>
And manual this time
<lamont>
ah yeah if you had it in git
<awang>
:/
<lamont>
you need a script that starts ksp, detects if it starts correctly, then tears it down, feed that to git bisect
<awang>
Time to dust off my bash scripting...
<awang>
I think git bisect actually learned how to run something automatically some time ago
<awang>
So that could speed things up
<awang>
But starting from scratch first...
<awang>
I'm assuming there's no comprehensive-ish list of mods anywhere?
<awang>
CKAN has a lot, but it's missing some good stuff like SSTU
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7EbJ
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev 2b2907e NathanKell: Change config costs. Also tweak Russian engine reliability curve midpoints to represent need for more testing.
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7Ebk
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 6f11fca NathanKell: Support decoupler tag.
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7EbL
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<awang>
Do the Steam .dll/.sos actually do anything?
<xShadowx>
kep track of playtime?;p
<awang>
lol
<awang>
Do the Steam .dll/sos actually do anything useful/critical?
<Tyaedalis>
no, you don't need them
<awang>
Alright
<awang>
Is there any penalty to having them?
<Tyaedalis>
probably only if you're running it through Steam
<awang>
Hm
<awang>
Makes sense
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<NathanKell>
!tell Pap,Maxsimal: Ok, should be playable through 1960 tech or so I think? We need to revise entrycosts though, 20x won't cut it. Probably 100x makes more sense now.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<soundnfury>
NathanKell|AWAY: I don't think that !tell is supposed to have a colon there.
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<acc>
!tell soundnfury,acc it works
<Qboid>
acc: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid>
acc: acc left a message for you in #RO [02.08.2017 10:27:13]: "it works"
<acc>
oh, misread :>
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<Maxsimal|Work>
o/
Maxsimal|Work is now known as Maxsimal
<Maxsimal>
o/
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 23:31:38]: "looking at costs, Maxsimal, I tend to agree we need to inflate cost based on number of stages / decouplers / something."
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
o/
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
my install is now maybe two weeks old, so maybe things have changed, but Procedural Avionics are not working as I think they should.
<Maxsimal>
!tell NathanKell: Agreed - though the rollout costs aren't behaving as I expected - is Pap play with with different tuning? I need to test myself, but I expected them to be higher based off of what you did. Do you have any ideas for this? We can't just count KSP stages, since having fairing stages shouldn't count against the player. I was considering something like total decoupler mass/vehicle mass, but decoupler masses aren't tuned particularly well afaik
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
for boosters and probes they are fine
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
but for second stages, the size and power consumption is an order of magnitude higher than historical avionics units
<Maxsimal>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Yeah I know, it's something leudaimon and I have discussed with rsparkyc. Unfortunately he doesn't have the time to go in and make the required changes - it's unfortunately not just a tuning issue
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I just find it weird that an increase in size, but not tonnage, results in crazy amount of power-usage increase
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah, Maxsimal, ok
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yeah, I mean, it's not like there isn't enough choice :)
<Maxsimal>
Hypergolic_Skunk - The big issue is that he based the proc avionics off the proc batteries - so the cost/weight tuning of the batteries end up dominating the tuned cost/weight of the proc avionics for the upper stages. But question - are the Able and Delta cores we had previously incorrectly sized? You're saying upper stage avionics is too big, but I thought those were real avionics modules, with a real size
<Maxsimal>
Afk a few minutes, brb
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
but when you have a certain shape in mind, and you need to redo it because you need to use a historical avionics unit which for some reason is way too big or way too small, it's inconvenient
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Maxsimal:
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oops
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
the Able/Delta are just perfect
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so are all the other units
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
but when you're not a stickler for historical rockets, and you just want something with a custom but realistic size, procedural avionics will absolutely not let you do that, unless you accept that a 2m-diameter-avionics unit uses 10 times more power than a 0.5m-diameter unit with the same tonnage
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
(btw, not complaining.. just wondering if others feel the same way, which they do :p )
<dxdy>
how do the resources in RSS work? I see that there is some water on mars, but do I need an extra mod to extract it or is there a piece of equipment I've not found yet already included for that?
<Maxsimal>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Agreed. Anyway, proc avionics definitely need looking into. If I get around to coding for RO/RP0 that's probably first on my list, or when rsparkyc gets free I'll see about working with him on a better approach.
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Maxsimal: no rush. after all, it's not essential, just inconvenience. there are many working static avionic units which do the job just fine for now :)
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<Maxsimal>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Yeah I'm not in a rush to do it either :P
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<dxdy>
is the RealISRU under active development?
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<taniwha>
dxdy: does your nick imply you are normal? ;)
<taniwha>
(sorry, been doing a LOT of math lately)
<dxdy>
:D actually, when I started using the nick I was so focussed on it being a nickname (and comfortable to type) the maths connotation didn't actually occur to me. Much to my detriment, as it turns out there are inconveniently many people using that nick
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<Pap>
o/
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [02.08.2017 05:31:56]: "ok I updated the part pricing, but I wasn't sure what to touch to add that X-405H config so I didn't yet."
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [02.08.2017 07:34:10]: "Ok, should be playable through 1960 tech or so I think? We need to revise entrycosts though, 20x won't cut it. Probably 100x makes more sense now."
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
\o
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
current Communication Satellite requirement: Longitude of Ascending Node: 152.1 degrees. oh boy ^
<Maxsimal|Work>
o/ Pap
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<Maxsimal|Work>
!tell NathanKell: Btw I think we should adjust all unmanned contract rewards by 3x, and all manned contract rewards by 6x. I think that 400%, rather than 500%, money is more in line with what we had before, based off the multiplier tuning you put in.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Maxsimal|Work>
!tell NathanKell: So we would need to adjust upgrade point tuning to 40,000 funds, I'd expect.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: that is a fun one
<Pap>
o/ Maxsimal|Work
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Finally got my git back to where I can submit. Did it by deleted and recreating my fork, rather than the 'official' way :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so Pap ... if I understand this right... if my LAN is wrong when I'm in parking-orbit, I can use my Periapsis as the node and burn ... radial? to change the LAN? have never done this before :p
<Pap>
Maxsimal|Work: I have done that MANY, MANY times
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
no wait, normal/antinormal
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I actually do not know for sure, wouldn't normal / anti-normal just change the Inclination?
<Pap>
Is there an orbit on the map view to show you?
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: it would... if you burned at the AN?DN
<Pap>
ah, that's right
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
there is, but the thing is... launching from Florida into the correct inclination (116.6 degrees), you can launch into that orbit, but your LAN is still going to be off by the same amount
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
and even then, the LAN is only going to be correct for a tiny amount of time, because Earth rotates underneath you..
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<gazpachian>
the LAN is in a non-rotating reference frame
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
reference to what?
<gazpachian>
so unless you run Principia the LAN will remain constant
<gazpachian>
fixed stars?
<gazpachian>
Is the best way to think about it?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
hm..
<taniwha>
that's how LAN is /defined/
<taniwha>
for Earth, 0 LAN is Antares
<taniwha>
(it's where the sun crosses the ecliptic)
<gazpachian>
taniwha confirmed hardcore, looks at the skybox to find launch windows
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I believe you guys, but the wiki page mentions nothing about stars
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
this is an Earth-centric orbit
<gazpachian>
it mentions the vernal equinox, doesn't it?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
no
<gazpachian>
huh
<dxdy>
it does
<dxdy>
see first point of aries
<dxdy>
;)
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Basically, if you have an orbit drawn on the screen, you have the planet rotate until you are almost underneath the orbit line and then launch into the proper inclination. You will be VERY close to the proper LAN and then can make small adjustments then
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* I was looking to add the X-405H Engine Config information like you requested, but I cannot find the config in any of the RO files (nor mods)
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<gazpachian>
or if you launch into a polar orbit with the AN at the dawn day/night terminator, it will be at the dusk terminator half a year later
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
the Wikipedia page for LAN says nothing about stars for Earth-centric orbits, only for heliocentric orbits
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
which the contract says nothing about -.-
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I'll have to relaunch. if I hadn't quicksaved, this'd be a major reputation decrease *raises fist towards the heavens*
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<dxdy>
Hypergolic_Skunk: it does say "For a geocentric orbit, Earth's equatorial plane as the reference plane, and the First Point of Aries as the origin of longitude. In this case, the longitude is also called the right ascension of the ascending node, or RAAN. The angle is measured eastwards (or, as seen from the north, counterclockwise) from the First Point of Aries to the node.[2][3]"
<dxdy>
that's a star in my book^^
<taniwha>
Hypergolic_Skunk: if you're looking at the orbital elements page, it's /general/
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
sorry, my bad. obviously I have a reading attention span of < 1 second
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* I am going to work through adding all of the costs / entryCosts from the Engine Config files to the master spreadsheet today. Then we can pull directly from there for all changes in the future
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<gazpachian>
yeah, that should be doable!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
it actually is oO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
wow
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<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Heheh - well I guess I will keep doing that.
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<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Anyway, hopefully that PR will fix the issues you had with contracts - it makes it behave as if you'd done Karman under the new system, even if you'd done it before you added the contract changes. Is there anything else you'd like m to look at in the short term?
<Pap>
Maxsimal|Work: I don't think there is anything in particular. These costs are going to take a lot of balancing, so I think when they are a little more settled, it is going to take a lot of playtesting
<Pap>
CobaltWolf: Titan is looking good! Atlas is looking great as well
<CobaltWolf>
Pap: it's Blue Streak! it's two engines but the mounting means they really need to be integral... same for the Black Arrow bits
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<Pap>
! NathanKell* Nevermind on the message about the X-405, due to the Git issues, the most recent changes were not pulled for RO
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<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* Nevermind on the message about the X-405, due to the Git issues, the most recent changes were not pulled for RO
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/v7uHO
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 3738342 Pap: Revert "We no longer support EngineIgnitor anyway."...
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master c720b06 Pap: Revert "Revert "We no longer support EngineIgnitor anyway.""...
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: I look forward to getting back to playing :)
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7u5w
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev ce71d80 Pap: Move entryCost from S-3 to S-3D...
<Pap>
Maxsimal|Work: you have proven to be too valuable with development, sorry, no more time for playing for you :)
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Pfft I'll have to screw something up then
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: I mean, moreso
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Actually I was pretty happy that you guys let me help out with the balancing, and listened so much - I expected most of my feedback to just disappear into the ether when I first wrote it.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7uAq
<Pap>
It is valuable (to me) to see how others approach and play the things I make (contracts, tech tree). I typically only play one way and do not think to look outside the box like others do
<Bornholio>
.poke
<Bornholio>
pap How do i assign tech tree requirement and costs for my NTR methane configs for RP-0?
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Most people do that. Even a lot of game designers fall into that type of thinking.
<SlainteMaith>
I'm thinking the only people qualified are former space agency directors, and/or players of Buzz Aldrin's Race To Space, (or recent remake) or Kerbal Space Program.
<Bornholio>
noce how they make it aliens
<Maxsimal|Work>
Yeah, Nasa really means 'space bacteria' here
<Bornholio>
and us protecting other planets not ours
<SlainteMaith>
Oh. Or XCOM.
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Btw I was thinking of looking at the planes contracts next. Do you want me to write up a list of what I'd like to see/do in your contracts issue, or make a new one?
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: someone give Maxsimal|Work a medal... planes came definitely before rockets (unless you count fireworks :p) ... if I had my say, everyone would have to build and fly lots of planes before even starting with sounding-rockets :D
<Maxsimal|Work>
Hypergolic_Skunk: These would still be X-planes contracts :P I just find that the supersonic X-plane contracts are a pain in the ass, and have no progression to them, while the X-planes high contracts are easily done by a rocket, and there's no reward for or check to test if you actually did it with a plane.
<Pap>
Maxsimal|Work: The planes contracts definitely need a lot of work. I think you could add them to that Contracts Issue. It will keep from creating a new issue if nothing else
<Maxsimal|Work>
Hypergolic_Skunk|Pap: I think I'd like to add the progression mechanic I've done with the new sounding rockets to the x-planes stuff, and also add some better ways to test for how 'plane'ish the vehicle is.
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Gotcha, will do
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Maxsimal|Work: agreed!
<Pap>
Maxsimal|Work: yeah, the tests for things like wings and wheels would work, but trying to determine the different Part Modules that are checked by CC might be a challenge
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: I was actually thinking more like 'maintain altitude <2000 meters + velocity > 70 m/s for >1 minute' to test that your 'plane' can do a landing approach without a terrible glide ratio. Only part I don't know about there is if I can adjust the altitude based off of the ASL of the launch site.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I was thinking of aviation milestones, though.. not necessarily crossing the Atlantic, but ..i don't know. I'm going to try to come up with something :)
<Maxsimal|Work>
Hrmm, maybe velocity >50m/s
<Maxsimal|Work>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Cool I'd be happy to see some more ideas, that's why I'll post it as an issue first.
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Is there a way to set a waypoint for a contract at the site you launch from?
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
or have several waypoints that need to be checked in a certain order?
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: that is possible, but creating Waypoints that are close enough to where you are launching from is not as straightforward as it may seem
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
hm... yeah, I noticed with that Atmospheric contract
<Maxsimal|Work>
Gotta get out of here - but kerbal konstructs looks kool. I'd love to have that launchpad in the game. Runway was a little janky though. Haven't watched the 2nd half of the vid, but already seems like a worthwhile mod to 'suggest' for RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
agreed
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: RO/dev not RO/master :)
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [02.08.2017 13:20:43]: "I was looking to add the X-405H Engine Config information like you requested, but I cannot find the config in any of the RO files (nor mods)"
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [02.08.2017 13:32:04]: "I am going to work through adding all of the costs / entryCosts from the Engine Config files to the master spreadsheet today. Then we can pull directly from there for all changes in the future"
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [02.08.2017 15:05:04]: "Nevermind on the message about the X-405, due to the Git issues, the most recent changes were not pulled for RO"
<NathanKell|WORK>
!tell Maxsim* it depends very heavily on pad level. Rolling out a Thor may cost only about what the parts cost. Rolling out a manned Saturn V will cost many times the part cost.
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Also can you add the new boattail from RO/dev to the tree? I totally forgot :(
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: putting all that stuff in the spreadsheet is *awesome* btw! :)
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<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: Yep, I will add the boattail!
<Pap>
It will make things infinitely easier going forward
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: I also saw a little of your conversation with Raidernick Should I rename the RD-107/108 series of engines to remove the underscores and use hyphens as instead (In the Dev branch only)
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Yeah, please do. We need to fix the mixture ratios too, and then see which configs he has we don't
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: The boattail is because I made interstages with decouplers *much* more expensive, but you don't need a decoupler for a boattail so I added a clone with no decoupler that's cheap as heck
<NathanKell|WORK>
It's no different from the Flat Adapter we have now except it doesn't cost a ton.
<NathanKell|WORK>
The other thing I probably need to do is make RCS rather more expensive.
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
all RCS fuels?
<Pena>
funny how I get biome "Above Earth's Poles" all the time when I'm nowhere near Poland :]
<Bornholio>
.smirk
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Dad! what are you doing here? :p
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK some of the RL10 configs have entryCostMultipliers that are like this RL10B-2 = 0.75.....Will that work how it is intended? They are the only ones that are like that
<NathanKell|WORK>
That will work as intended yeah
<NathanKell|WORK>
Means it multiplies the current config cost by .75 if the RL10B-2 is unlocked
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<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: huh, TIL that in french the thrust decay of an SRB is called "queue de poussée" (lit. "thrust tail")
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<Sarbian>
Raidernick: fix pushed to CKAN. It should be fine after the next bot pass
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<awang>
Sarbian: \o/
<NathanKell|WORK>
^ ?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah
<NathanKell|WORK>
was lost inside all the join/parts
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
my goodness, hydrolox is powerful D:
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
interplanetary probe with the 3. stage of 6.3km/s, and the 'hidden' 4. stage with 1.8km/s of rcs-delta-v, and the entire thing only weighs 310 tons? oh my
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7z0T
<soundnfury>
Pap: next you'll be telling me that you didn't get Anschlußed either
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: :D
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: UR-700 Stronk
<Pap>
soundnfury: We were just temporarily occupied for about 52 years
<Pena>
a brief intermission
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<Maxsimal>
\o/
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: NathanKell|WORK left a message for you in #RO [02.08.2017 16:43:40]: "it depends very heavily on pad level. Rolling out a Thor may cost only about what the parts cost. Rolling out a manned Saturn V will cost many times the part cost."
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: has anyone made a UR-700 in RO
<Pap>
Rokker: Woah, the UR-700 cross-fed fuel from the booster tanks into the main stack, I thought that was only done in KSP!
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: There are 5 additional RD-107/108 series engine configs that Raidernick uses that we do not have configs for. His configs do not have the Vernier thrust included. Should I add the additional 5 configs and include the Vernier thrust in our numbers?
<Pap>
What is the proper version of Procedural Wings to install?
<Maxsimal>
I can understand why cross-feed the way KSP does it is fake - just using a fuel line and a pump - I dunno why what the UR-700 had planned wouldn't work though - having tanks above the main tanks feeding strait to the top of the core tanks.
<Bornholio>
airdraft have dozens of tanks vriously placed why not... and I think the "you need more turbo pumps" answer is bunk. you need divereters and valves and maybe a accumulator tank at worst
<Bornholio>
aircraft
<Pap>
Isn't the argument that rocket engines need a much higher constant flow of fuel than aircraft engines? Or am I mistaken on that?
<Bornholio>
thats just sizing. Those sized pipes and that size valve, just somewhat extra, easily rolled into KSP overweight tanks
<Bornholio>
but yes Ive heard that opinion esposed before pap
<Rokker>
Pap: holy shit have you seen this mars mod for EU4
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Which configs does he have that we don't? How different are they? Where might they be slotted in the tree?
<Pap>
The CURRENT column is what we have and how it fits
<NathanKell|WORK>
huh I confused Molniya and Vostok K
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yeah, why not. There's a lot of empty-for-Soviets Orbital Rocketry nodes anyway
<Pap>
Alright, I'll get working on it
<NathanKell|WORK>
Cool, thanks!
<NathanKell|WORK>
I think once that's done and we basically have all those stats harmonized we can just sub in engineType and vernier subtraction to the RN configs and the craft files won't need to change at all :)
<xShadowx>
astronauts looking at sun - visor potects eyes, no visor = goes blind? only know what hollywood has which was (sometimes) burn exposed skin, and always go blind (some perm, some temp)
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: Yep, that should work well
<Probus>
Dang it! Accidentally clicked on a lunar rover mission and I am nowhere near ready for it.
<xShadowx>
better get ready ;3
<Probus>
I think I am going to have to come up with a "Kerbalized" rocket of some sort. Moar Boosters!
* xShadowx
is thinking to make his kerbals who stare at sun go blind
<NathanKell|WORK>
Probus: BARBARIAN
<Probus>
Ha! :)
<xShadowx>
NathanKell|WORK: speaking of which, fully converted valve over to ksp+RO addicts yet?
<Pap>
Rokker: is it just EUIV but takes place on a map of Mars?
<Rokker>
Pap: afaict
<Rokker>
Pap: terraformed mars
<awang>
Does RO do anything about infinite EVA fuel?
<xShadowx>
if anything, i think itd be tacls not RO, someone might have a better answer :)
<awang>
Why TACLS?
<xShadowx>
just seems like i remember seein it there
<awang>
Huh
<awang>
Seems not life-support-y to me, but what do I know
<xShadowx>
handles resources xfering around when you eva/board tho, i havent used it in forever i could be completely wrong ;p just it keeps bein asked so clues > nothing
<awang>
Ah, that makes sense
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: Before I continue on this, Raidernick does not use any HTP in his calculations of the ratio, while the global configs are using it. What should we do about that issue?
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap|SemiAFK: Ah right yes. We do need to update the craft files and the tank patches for that
<NathanKell|WORK>
We definitely do want HTP
<NathanKell|WORK>
So let's not push the global configs to the RN part patches yet. But as long as the names are the same, the global TF and RP-0 patches will 'notice' the RN parts.
<Pap|SemiAFK>
OK, then I will continue to use the ratio we have. Add the additional configs and then we can look at the RN edits down the road.
<Raidernick>
NathanKell|WORK, as i said i will eventually look at updating all that nonsense
<Raidernick>
i don't want to do it right now i'm busy fixing other parts
<NathanKell|WORK>
Raidernick: Not a problem :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
In fact as I recall I said I'd do it, even :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
I know it's a pain
<Raidernick>
NathanKell|WORK, what fuel did the algol stages use on scout
<Raidernick>
htpb?
<Raidernick>
or pspc
<NathanKell|WORK>
HTPB I believe
<Raidernick>
even in 1960?
<Raidernick>
didn't you say that was before htpb existed or something
<NathanKell|WORK>
it was before PBAN existed
<NathanKell|WORK>
it was when HTPB was coming out
<NathanKell|WORK>
HTPB was developed for Polaris, IMS, and Algol was a civilian version of an early Polaris test motor
<Raidernick>
ok and what is pbaa?
<Raidernick>
is that some sort of pban?
<Raidernick>
do we even have a fuel type for that
<NathanKell|WORK>
use PBAN I'd say
<Raidernick>
ok because the very first castor 1a used pbaa in 1960
<Raidernick>
ok so it's a real fuel we just don't have a config for then
<Raidernick>
i'll use pban
<Bornholio>
about 20ISP less than PBAN
<Probus>
The internet is an amazing place
<Bornholio>
but sonetimes the same :P
<Probus>
Now if it could tell me how to get a rover to the moon in 1961...
<Bornholio>
easy, just ignore wheels, use a little skidder with rcs
<Bornholio>
or hop using 1kn/2kn thrusters
<Probus>
How does it check if its a rover or not? like if all the wheels are broken is it a rover?
<NathanKell|WORK>
It checks if you visit the sites.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Doesn't care how IIRC
<Bornholio>
right now it does not look for that. just go to the waypoints
<Raidernick>
NathanKell|WORK, we may want to add that fuel in the future
<Probus>
Oh crap! I didn't realize it had sites! so now I have to land on target! Oh my lord!
<Bornholio>
Solid fuel should be commonized too a couple types and improve as tech increases, too many mixes
<dxdy>
what's the current state of Real ISRU? Is that still being developed?
<Bornholio>
I put a few fixes in dxdy, it functions as is but now way balanced
<dxdy>
mkay
<dxdy>
is there something that'd allow drilling on mars for water in line with TACLS in a somewhat realistic fashion? (ie having sufficient consistent energy so as to not collapse the drilled cavern, lead-up time, stuff like that)?
<Bornholio>
https://imgur.com/a/6AwpB did this not long ago with it, best to just use the converters, it does have co2 compressors and so such
<dxdy>
119 ton total mass manned moon mission, what does one want more :D
<dxdy>
those would all be cool additions indeed though
<dxdy>
who does actually maintain that mod? is that you Bornholio, or is there some other instance?
<Bornholio>
stratochief is current;y most active
<Bornholio>
but its mostly idle
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<dxdy>
that's a shame, it's one of those mods that don't feel like being forever in the 90's with regards to going further out
<Bornholio>
most of the concepts were on drawing boards during apollo, but yeah its what is a big enabler to manned missions to mars, along with NTR's otherwise you can be cheaty with a gemini pod and excessive TACLS pods
<dxdy>
yep, it does feel better to actually have some irsu than exessively using the pods though
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