NathanKell|WORK was kicked from #RO by NathanKell|AWAY [NathanKell|WORK]
<NathanKell>
o/
<awang>
Does anyone remember if RealScience had any kind of UI in-game?
<awang>
I checked out KSP 1.1.3, and while the button appears, clicking on it does nothing
<xShadowx>
o/
<awang>
This is using the latest version from Agathorn's repo
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: You’re saying training expires during classes?
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v79a6
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev 23e3a79 NathanKell: Wow, just wow. Copied WAC TF config over as example, forgot to delete it. Sorts bug where the WAC line occurred twice.
<Bornholio>
yes, so i get no trained people
<Bornholio>
ca't fly manned missions
<Bornholio>
or i'm doing it wrong
<NathanKell>
AHAHHAHAHA
<NathanKell>
I never add UT
<NathanKell>
>.>
<Bornholio>
.smirk
<NathanKell>
there
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79Vf
<github>
RP-0/Developmental e694328 NathanKell: Offset expiration from current time, it's not an absolute date. >.>
<NathanKell>
so for those “not getting rollout” can you be more specific?
<NathanKell>
What, precisely, is not there?
<NathanKell>
Do craft build normally?
<NathanKell>
Do they finish?
<NathanKell>
Does a rollout button appear when they finish?
<NathanKell>
Does that take any time?
<NathanKell>
Does that cost any money?
<NathanKell>
...?
qwertyy_ has joined #RO
<Bornholio>
Only thing i have is very high rollout costs on things that used to be cheap. My 300fund souding rocket used to cost 581funds to roll out but now costs over 5400
<NathanKell>
uh oh
<Bornholio>
didn't notice a related change though thought it might scale with pad size or build rate or VAB level
<NathanKell>
It definitely scales with pad size
qwertyy__ has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
<Bornholio>
so how do i launch cheap from KSC then. i'm not even running switcher at the moment and don't really want to just to launch
<NathanKell>
I really don’t know what’s going on
<NathanKell>
Because it is working fine for me right now
<NathanKell>
I started a new career, selected the RP-0 preset, and...everything is working fine
<NathanKell>
Launch costs look right for WACs
<NathanKell>
Rollout takes as long as expected
<NathanKell>
etc
<NathanKell>
(~100 for a boosted WAC, ~50 to launch it--18 days to build and 1 to roll out)
<Bornholio>
well i'll test that again after it patches MM
<NathanKell>
really confused, sorry :\
<awang>
Heisenbugs are fun!
<awang>
Also, Sarbian's instructions for getting debug working isn't working for me :(
<Bornholio>
might need to start calling ti RP-1 and remove the "Lightweight" from the secription :P
<awang>
My computer says all the debug Unity players are corrupted
<awang>
Or damaged
<awang>
Running by command line yields "failed to locate data folder"
<NathanKell>
Bornholio now that I think about it, that’s...Not a bad idea.
<Bornholio>
which crazy idea now
<NathanKell>
It really is quite a major transform of RP0
<Bornholio>
oh the most recent one :P
<Bornholio>
I would like the UI that can disable/enable and maybe tune some of the new features. But thats work also .sigh
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 86e2303 NathanKell: Add cost reduction to toolings if you have an earlier tank
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79wo
qwertyy__ has joined #RO
qwertyy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
qwertyy_ has joined #RO
<awang>
Monodevelop segfaults on my system :(
qwertyy__ has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79rv
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 262bd33 NathanKell: Clarify the untooled mult
strato|migraine is now known as stratochief
<NathanKell>
stratochief: belated ouch!
<Bornholio>
Start new career load rp0 config, go to VAB , no build cost listed, 216F V-2 Straight shot rocket, build time 71d w/0.525 BP/s
<NathanKell>
Can you upload your save folder?
<Bornholio>
k
<NathanKell>
thanks
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79rG
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 533578a NathanKell: Fix default untooled mult
<NathanKell>
which is the one you were just playing, Hoppy?
<Bornholio>
yes
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79rK
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 821f522 NathanKell: Thought I pushed this already. Reconditioning blocks pad now.
<NathanKell>
ok loading up
<Starwaster>
yeah
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: Got time to discuss the cryo stuff?
<Bornholio>
still displays 1951 in the active training window, did complete training.
<NathanKell>
Bornholio you’re on ‘custom’ KCT settings
<NathanKell>
Bornholio go back to the RP0 preset.
<NathanKell>
I bet this is true for everyone. That is why I asked time and again if you were on the RP0 preset :P
* soundnfury
cannot into sleep :(
<Bornholio>
wasn't on the Custom... pretty sure i didn't misclick. OK i'll check again
<NathanKell>
Well when I loaded up for sure it said custom
<NathanKell>
and when I switched to RP0 it worked fine again
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: oh I found that when I clicked RP0 it applied RP0's settings but declared it to be custom
<NathanKell>
odd
<NathanKell>
I thought magico fixed that
<soundnfury>
I forget whether that was on official KCT or yours though
<NathanKell>
Ohhh wait I know why I thin
<NathanKell>
think*
<NathanKell>
As of the latest push that should no longer happen
<NathanKell>
err
<NathanKell>
sorry, as of a push I am about to make :P
<Starwaster>
yeah, what kind of time table do you want to aim for?
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79rj
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 6790da7 NathanKell: Add Human-rated global mult
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: I need to have it done in the next week, because the next RO/RP-0/etc release depends on it and we want to have time to test after it’s done
<NathanKell>
I’d *like* to write the code this weekend, since it’s the weekend and I’ll have time
<NathanKell>
Assuming I rather than you are writing it--if you are, then maybe your weekdays are freer :]
<Starwaster>
If you do the UI for it I'll make the internal changes for it. We should probably also try to work out a solution for analytic mode because the current system just can't handle it. I didn't realize before how much analytic was screwing with it.
<NathanKell>
Sure! The UI is super simple I’d think, just two sliders
<NathanKell>
one for insulation type and one for level
<NathanKell>
And yeppers on analytic
<NathanKell>
I’ll try to remember how I wrote the backend guts :D
<NathanKell>
Lemme just check the training issue Bornholio mentioned and then I’ll dive into that
BasharMilesTeg_ has joined #RO
BasharMilesTeg has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Can you describe the training issue exactly? Everything looks normal to me with the latest dll...
<NathanKell>
It shows a sane expiration time in the GUI and applies that in the file
<NathanKell>
It’s 5/25/1951, end time is 6/10/151...?
<NathanKell>
oh
<NathanKell>
1954
<NathanKell>
Right
<NathanKell>
thanks
<Starwaster>
nathankell a couple of months back I sat down and looked over the analytic code and the way I'd been trying to work it is impossible with analytic because it responds to flux changes by affecting the entire vehicle.
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Ah, that was due to an upgrade issue I think
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: I changed how times were computed after you had triggered the course I think
<Starwaster>
so I guess what needs to happen is we have to write up the analytic physics and override the temperature without adding or removing any flux in the system
<NathanKell>
Nope, I lied
<NathanKell>
it’s still borked
<NathanKell>
\o/
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79o1
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 7f5090b NathanKell: Actually record start time when course starts
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: There’s an interface to handle changing only that part.
<NathanKell>
I added it specifically for this reason
<Starwaster>
for clamping the temperature yeah
<NathanKell>
?
<NathanKell>
No, I’m remembering something else
<Starwaster>
what you're remembering... probably isn't working as you intended it
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: If you’ve already started the course in your save, find its active course in the sfs and change startTime from 0 to whatever the current time is. That’ll make it think the course started then.
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: And get the latest dll, that will fix it going forward
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
<Bornholio>
I successfully got the training to accept even with that
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Yes, that just meant it would complete immediately (well, on next course tick)
awang has joined #RO
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: IAnalyticTemperatureModifier. It lets you report override temperatures for the part.
<Bornholio>
ok, next pair to train will get it right :)
<NathanKell>
basically we’d export a bit of flux to the rest of the vessel and then override our part’s temps to be lower
<NathanKell>
(to represent active cooling)
<NathanKell>
Or even to represent insulation
<NathanKell>
In the case of insulation, it would purely be the bbr we’re not emitting.
<Starwaster>
IAnalyticTemperatureModifier is what I'm referring to when I said clamping the temperature
<NathanKell>
Ah
<NathanKell>
then yep, I’m...missing the problem, I think
<Starwaster>
can do that just fine, but you still have to calculate how much flux is actually getting in, basically write up anew set of physics for it
<Starwaster>
and moving flux around is really dangerous to analytic
<Starwaster>
well having the wrong sign reversed was the dangerous part but it's hard to control....
<Starwaster>
it's better not to remove any flux in analytic because either you're not moving enough or you're moving too much
<Starwaster>
analytic flux gets applied to the entire vehicle basically
<NathanKell>
I’m not saying remove.
<NathanKell>
I’m saying *add*
<NathanKell>
Basically, analytic works by calculating the steady state temperature, yeah?
<NathanKell>
Which is when rad flux in = rad flux out
<Starwaster>
for the entire collection of parts, sure
<NathanKell>
If our part is colder than the other parts, then it’s not outputting as much. So the difference in rad flux there has to be made up by the other parts
<NathanKell>
Which is why we add to the rest.
Hypergolic_Skunk has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
<Starwaster>
you want to ADD flux? You mean remove don't you?
<NathanKell>
No.
<NathanKell>
If I know I’m taking in X flux.
<NathanKell>
s/flux/watts/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: If I know I’m taking in X watts.
<NathanKell>
then I know I have to radiate X watts.
<NathanKell>
right?
<NathanKell>
(to be in steady state)
<NathanKell>
Now, that X we’re radiating is made up of the sum of the black body radiation of all parts.
<NathanKell>
If we lower part A’s skin temperature, it’s now outputting less. Which means the others have to output more to make up X total output.
<Starwaster>
why do they HAVE to output more? How is that a necessity?
<NathanKell>
Now, if we treat insulation as only lowering internal temp, rather than keeping skin temp low too, *then* we don’t have to worry about this.
<NathanKell>
If they don’t...where’s the heat going?
Pap|AFK is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/ everyone
<Starwaster>
Are you thinking that the flux increase has to happen because of heat pumps and radiators?
<Starwaster>
because there's only two sources of flux change and that's heat pumps and boiloff
<NathanKell>
Hey Pap!
<Starwaster>
RF is only handling boiloff so the heat is going out of the vehicle with the boiloff vapor
<Starwaster>
you dont move it to other parts
<NathanKell>
...I’m not talking about boiloff.
<NathanKell>
I’m talking about the effect of insulation.
<Starwaster>
which slows the rate that heat penetrates into the tank's contents
<NathanKell>
Ok. So skin temperature is not clamped, only internal temp?
<Starwaster>
right
<Starwaster>
skin temperature won't get touched by us
<NathanKell>
Ok. So wouldn’t that result in skin temperature increasing *higher* than expected, since the skin is keeping more of the heat?
TM1978m has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<NathanKell>
It’s not like insulation makes heat go away
<NathanKell>
it just keeps it in itself (or radiates it away) rather than passing it in
<Starwaster>
actually we might be touching it... let me double check that. It shouldn't be touched
<NathanKell>
But I’m saying it *should* be touched. Well, the skin of the whole vessel should be.
<NathanKell>
I do *not* think RF should break conservation of energy :P
TM1978m has joined #RO
stratochief has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Starwaster>
I think the only time it's getting clamped is if it's a new vehicle, Other than that it's not getting touched
leudaimon has joined #RO
<Starwaster>
that was the intent anyway
<NathanKell>
Right. Which means, unless I am missing something, that we are violating conservation of energy.
<awang>
:O
<Starwaster>
We can just as easily not do it at all even pre-launch, I just set it up that way since that's how we'd been handling pre-launch since forever ago
<NathanKell>
No, I don’t mean the clamping
<NathanKell>
I mean not letting some heat through
<Starwaster>
not letting heat through means clamping. But we calculate how much would have gotten through and boiloff the right amount to account for that heat. So conservation is still there
SRBuchanan has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
<NathanKell>
You have thing a and thing b. Thing a receives X heat. Now, one of three things can happen: (1) a radiates all of X. (2) a radiates some of X, and passes some of X on, still summing to X. (3) a radiates some of X, and passes some of X on, *not* still summing to X.
<Bornholio>
the insulation is resistance to heat flow, keeping the outer surface hotter (or colder) than an uninsulted surface
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: EXACTLY.
<NathanKell>
EXACTLY THAT.
<NathanKell>
(assuming no change in a’s own temperature--if a *can* change temperature, then not all X needs to be dealt with)
<NathanKell>
So what I have been trying to say is that, if you don’t assume that the skin passes all the heat in, the skin needs to get hotter than it otherwise would.
<Bornholio>
since you are only factoring radiative and not conductive the you have two black boxes, dT with inner body and dT with black body/external source
<NathanKell>
Actually, hang on, I think that’s a bug in Analytic itself: when it’s raising the internal temp it doesn’t proportionally lower the skin temp :(
<Pap>
I want to relax and launch some rockets today. What all do I need to download to make it work?
SRBuchanan has joined #RO
<NathanKell>
so our not raising skin temp is actually right given that bug
<NathanKell>
so you know what? Forget it.
<NathanKell>
Pap: Latest RP-0 dev. Latest RO dev. You should already have latest KCT dll (no changes today) and latest RF dll (no changes today)
<Pap>
ok, should be good, thanks
<NathanKell>
cool
<Bornholio>
had weird zero TACLS on X-15 cockpit, quick turned off TAC to not lose a pilot. was there any changes to the cockpits last night?
<NathanKell>
No. Zero as in no resources?
<NathanKell>
Did someone give it a MFT tank or something like that?
<Bornholio>
no resource show up in VAB either
<Bornholio>
on 1.25m cockpit
<NathanKell>
Yes.
<NathanKell>
*(#%Y*@&@*(
<NathanKell>
Why do people keep doing that!!!!!
<Bornholio>
lol
<Pap>
What was done?
<NathanKell>
Oh wait, it may just be that it was always presumed that it required you to research life support first
<NathanKell>
so it was safe to give it a tank
<NathanKell>
Yeah, that’s more likely the answer
<NathanKell>
So...yeah, best research life support first :]
<NathanKell>
Man, we need a way to have some, but not all, life support resources show up, to handle that condition
<NathanKell>
(rather than just putting the X-15 cockpit behind Life Support, as Basic Capsules is)
<NathanKell>
hmm. Maybe we should just do that actually.
<NathanKell>
that’s for sure the easiest solution
<Bornholio>
X-1 has resources, but i know you want to take away space capable on it. plus its getting very scary to use it as is for more than gentle SO
<NathanKell>
It’s space capable, just not orbit capable
<NathanKell>
And yes it does have resources, but by dint of them not being expandable in any way
<NathanKell>
Whereas we’d maybe like to let the player alter the resources on the X-15 cockpit
<NathanKell>
that’s the rub
<xShadowx>
what defines X-1 as not orbit capable IRL? i mean its so high its almost orbit anyways ;3
<NathanKell>
I wasn’t aware that ~40km was ‘so high’
<taniwha>
if you're wings still work, you're not even close :)
<xShadowx>
thats more of 'able to get to' i ment more 'able to withstand'
<Starwaster>
nathankell, ok still not seeing why the tank's skin temp should rise above what analytic's calculated (steady state) temp is. That's where it's at equilibrium with the radiated heat. It can't go above that even if you have insulation keeping it from progressing inside
<taniwha>
withstanding space isn't a big problem, it's withstanding the return
<xShadowx>
ah k
<Bornholio>
well in the past i used it for all my first manned orbital missions, that is not practical anymore in dev.
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: Yes, it’s because I forgot that Analytic itself doesn’t correctly deal with things. Just forget it. :]
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v796N
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 249b4dd NathanKell: Show training (and expirations) on crew tooltips in AC. Start making things configurable
<Starwaster>
nathankell really analytic has more in common with pre-1.0 than it does with the current thermal system.
<NathanKell>
Oh?
* NCommander
plays with IDA
<Bornholio>
crus survivability tech/life support tank type filled cockpit life support (imagine that)
<Bornholio>
crew
<NathanKell>
:)
<Bornholio>
weirdly also gave me ability to put hydrazine in cockpit tankage
<Bornholio>
and went from little tiny 500 battery to 14400
<Starwaster>
well that's because battery capacity is much higher
<Starwaster>
ugh my Hungry Man dinner has a taint of penicillin in it...
<Bornholio>
lol, bluish? Gray?
<Starwaster>
I dunno, what does blue taste like?
<Bornholio>
thought you ment found mold on it?
<Starwaster>
not visiualy no
<Starwaster>
I just had a taste of it....
<Starwaster>
I dont expect that with a TV dinner
<Bornholio>
I'd say something about hungry man dinners but i'm being nice tonight
<Starwaster>
I did have the same thing happen with a blueberry mini cake thing that Publix marked down to like 0.21 because it was expiring
<Starwaster>
and visually it's nigh impossible ti identify mold amidst a food product that is naturallyu blue and gray
<Bornholio>
lol like my college buddy that did the cheap meat section, "Dude its green you gonna eat that?",
<Starwaster>
we once had a pork chop that was in the cheap meat section and we got it because it looked fine... no green on it
<Starwaster>
but when we threw it on the grill...
<Starwaster>
green started oozing out of hte marrow
<Starwaster>
hidden green
<Bornholio>
lol super green
<Starwaster>
needless to say, we changed out dinner plans that night
<Bornholio>
hope nobody on is eating right now :P
<leudaimon>
o/
<Starwaster>
I'm eating :P
<leudaimon>
starting research maintenance is 73k per year?
<Bornholio>
73k total right?
<leudaimon>
yeah, 73k per year, before spending upgrades
<Bornholio>
i'm through a lot of upgrades and its still 73k total maintenance costs
<leudaimon>
weird, now it changed to 475
qwertyy__ has joined #RO
<NathanKell>
that sounds more like it
<NathanKell>
wonder why it was at 73k
<leudaimon>
It was 73k when I started the game, after unlocking my first parts it changed to 475
<leudaimon>
by the way, why do I have the option to train my astronauts for every part in the game?
<leudaimon>
both for proficiency, refresher and mission
B787_300 is now known as B787_Bed
qwertyy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
<Bornholio>
lol, in my test start career and seeing zero training offered
<Bornholio>
not sure whats you have going on
<leudaimon>
other weird thing is that the astronaut names didn't change... I have Jeb et al
<Bornholio>
but 475 R&D cost
<Bornholio>
oh go to the AC first
<NathanKell>
^
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79ia
<github>
RP-0/Developmental c18dc8e NathanKell: Un-hardcode all the constants in CrewHandler and course.
<leudaimon>
oh, ok
<leudaimon>
yeah, no more courses available, but the astronaut names in the RP-0 gui still show as jeb et al
<Bornholio>
did the initial parts contract accept and complete for you?
<NathanKell>
go to VAB and go back out again
<NathanKell>
that’ll force a refresh
<leudaimon>
ohh did that and things got worse
<leudaimon>
now I have the original ones and the changed names... 8 names in total
<NathanKell>
guhhh
stratochief has joined #RO
<NathanKell>
warp forward an hour or two and try again
<leudaimon>
ok, I'll design the WAC and try that
<leudaimon>
btw NathanKell, I saw you defined utilization suggestions for the tank types and tiers... at least for tank I it does not apply, still 86
<NathanKell>
when you pull a fresh one out of the part list?
qwertyy_ has joined #RO
<leudaimon>
yep
<NathanKell>
dang
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79iS
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 20061a4 NathanKell: Have the settings in cfg
blowfish has joined #RO
qwertyy__ has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: found the bug
<leudaimon>
nice
<NathanKell>
ok, regrab the RF dll
<leudaimon>
ok
<leudaimon>
can I keep the configcache?
<NathanKell>
yes
<leudaimon>
thank god haha
<Bornholio>
can you make an issue in Dev branch for the link to that .dll Nathan? and note that it also needs KCT fork. Goodnight.
Bornholio is now known as borntosleep
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 195 seconds]
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: Ok I made a new branch, newCryo. In it I added the UI elements (well, stubs of them, I’ll handle the tech-related and cost-related code, and we’ll figure out costs for them). Can you add the new code for handling boiloff/etc based on that? In realtime, once you have the realtime one I’ll try to figure out how to beat analytic into submission
awang has joined #RO
<NathanKell>
borntosleep: Good point. Night!
<leudaimon>
working now NathanKell!
<NathanKell>
\o/
<leudaimon>
about training... you need to unlock parts before training astronauts?
<Starwaster>
uh
<Starwaster>
were you doing SOFI too?
<Starwaster>
adding/increasing thickness, etc?
<NathanKell>
Ah sorry
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
So you want one slider for thickness per layer and one slider for layer count?
<NathanKell>
and options are none, MLI, SOFI, Dewar?
<leudaimon>
lol NathanKell after I timewarped Jeb and company "retired"
<NathanKell>
Hmm, I think best do Dewar at the TANK level maybe? So you can selectively make, say, the LOX and LH2 dewar but nothing else
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79Pc
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 01c01d2 NathanKell: Don't announce retirement of nonexistent kerbals.
<Gus>
and while I can get it into AN orbit, the real launch was a very circular orbit of 160 x 220
<Gus>
and the Titan II, damn that thinh really shows it's ICBM roots
<Gus>
OH cool!
<Gus>
Lamont, that looks amazing!
<lamont>
yeah, i’m working on the space-shuttle implementation of PEG as well which should ultimately be better
<Gus>
lamont: I don't know what that means, but anything related to the space shuttle, other than the stupid vehicle itself, is really radical :)
<Gus>
I am such a shuttle hater - I much prefer the apollo block 3 and 4 designs
<lamont>
yeah its something like 3rd or 4th generation of guidance and its the same guidance that will fly in Orion, etc, and its the gold standard for the past 40-ish years
<lamont>
and yeah, i’m not that wild about the actual shuttle itself, but PEG4 is an improvement over Apollo IGM
<Gus>
So what is PEG? Is it software?
<Gus>
Are you feeding KSP telemetry data in to a real nasa bit of software?!
<lamont>
no, they published the algorithms in technical documents
<Gus>
Ah. That's good too.
<lamont>
gotta read the algorithm, translate from 1970s NASA-ese, and write kerbal/C# code
<Gus>
Hey NathanKell :)
<NathanKell>
Heya! :)
<Gus>
I gotta say, super funny side note that makes me cry everytime
<Gus>
I have a 5 year old gaming laptop and a new gaming laptop, because I'm a savage who doesn't believe in desks
<Gus>
and my new laptop has a GTX 1080 and a 4k screen
<Gus>
32 gigs of ram
<Gus>
and a brand new ssd with the new spec
<Gus>
BUT,
<Gus>
KSP crashes it constantly
<Gus>
no other game in my library, more or less modern, more or less technologically advanced causes this issue. But all forms of KSP blackscreen me in under half an hour. So I'm running two pcs now - one for SPACE and one for everything else...
<ferram4>
The entire PC? That's... impressive.
<ferram4>
But I believe it.
<lamont>
weird, runs fine on my quad-core 32GB GTX980 hackintosh
<Gus>
yeah, actually I think it crashes my graphics card
<Gus>
but yeah, KSP RO runs fine on my friggin XPS 13, and on my 680m
<Gus>
but not on the 1080
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79ME
<lamont>
shuttle PEG is definitely not ready for prime time, the latest version is converging on around 4,000 dV to orbit using only my first stage which seems slightly low
<lamont>
also launching due north right now to get to the moon…
<NathanKell>
:D :D
<lamont>
either the predictor is not predicting, or the corrector is not correcting
<lamont>
Pena: i’m going to try to reroute the jeffries tubes and reverse the inverse tachyon polarity and see if that fixes it
<NathanKell>
We need a pre-PEG guidance :)
<lamont>
yeah i’m curious about both Q-guidance and delta-guidance
TM1978m has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<xShadowx>
lamont: there is no guidance from Q, just antagonizing ;p
<SpecimenSpiff>
yeah, it says custom, though I know I selected rpo originally
<SpecimenSpiff>
and it doesnt want to let me change
<SpecimenSpiff>
yeah, its weird, i click on some presets and the highlight stays on custom, others will move the highlight. but if I click on rp-0, it just goes to custom
<lamont>
heh, yeah, Q-guidance teleports you into the delta quadrant into a fight with a borg cube before he’s decided that you puny humans have learned your lesson before taking you back home...
<SpecimenSpiff>
so how do I select rp-o? or do I have ot manually edit a file?
<SpecimenSpiff>
or just happilyu not spend rollout time?
SRBuchanan has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 40.1.0/20151110185753]]
Gus has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
SpecimenSpiff has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
<NathanKell>
!tell blowfish* I think we need to release a new RF for 1.2. The current release makes many things unuseable. I suggest directly forking from the last release, reverting those two commits, and releasing that. Sound ok?
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
SpecimenSpiff has joined #RO
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Fixed!
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Quit KSP. Grab the latest KCT dll. Then do a pull from RP-0. Then relaunch, go to your game, and load the RP0 preset again. I *think* that will fix things.
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79yX
<github>
RP-0/Developmental c47acff NathanKell: Fix preset to not reset to custom
<NathanKell>
*&@(%*(@ floating point arithmetic
<SpecimenSpiff>
by latest kct, do you still mean from the backport branch?
<NathanKell>
!tell Pap* for new science, it’d also be a good idea to add second-gen and third-gen crew reports (2nd-gen to the Gemini/Voskhod/etc and second and third gen to Soyuz and Apollo and everything after). Then there will actually be a reason to use those pods rather than just spam in a can.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79yd
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 2ff071b NathanKell: Remove debug spam, normalize line endings
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79SW
<github>
RP-0/Developmental d654779 NathanKell: Missed a couple tooling mults, oops
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v79Su
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev 86738e3 NathanKell: Make the engine failure curve kink much less sharp
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79Sg
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 712adb0 NathanKell: Lower starting data for WAC and A-4
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v79Si
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 999e10b NathanKell: Tweak ECMs relating to Hydyne (and the NAA75-110 base model, too)
schnobs has joined #RO
qwertyy__ has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
qwertyy__ has joined #RO
qwertyy_ has joined #RO
qwertyy__ has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
Hypergolic_Skunk has joined #RO
<NathanKell|Twitch>
!tell Pap* the M55 SRM got its name changed from M55 to RO-M55. I thought I fixed that in the tree but it seems I did not. Can you?
<Qboid>
NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
qwertyy has joined #RO
<NathanKell|Twitch>
!tell Pap* Can you find out what’s wrong i mean. Also the Boattail base isn’t showing up...
<Qboid>
NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
o/ NathanKell|Twitch - does the latest RP-0 dll maybe fix the rollout issue, or is that separate?
qwertyy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
Guest6727 has joined #RO
<NathanKell|Twitch>
!tell Pap* ah, one other thing. ECM part names still need to be in `change all _ and . to - ` form. That applies to training as well. Because I just saw that the X1_Crew is seen as X1.Crew.
<Qboid>
NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
wb99999999 has joined #RO
wb99999999 has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
<NathanKell>
o/ Hypergolic_Skunk
<NathanKell>
To fix it: 1. Pull RP-0. 2. Read the top issue on RP-0 to get the latest dlls.
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v797k
<github>
RP-0/Developmental ca561d5 NathanKell: Sanitize part names for training; don't do crew handling in sandbox; fix courses showing NaN times with 0 students.
<NathanKell>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Then, 3, in game, go to KCT->Settings and reselect the RP0 preset
SpecimenSpiff has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
ferram4 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ferram4 has joined #RO
qwertyy_ has joined #RO
qwertyy has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
Guest6727 has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell|AWAY: thanks, will give it a try!
schnobs has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
Maxsimal has joined #RO
stratochief has joined #RO
<Maxsimal>
o/
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
\o
<Maxsimal>
how's it goin?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
good, about to test NK's latest dll :) you?
Shoe17 has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell|AWAY: I got the new dll's, but the RP0 settings won't allow switching to a different setting, and thus no rollout. I'll test starting a new career.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell|AWAY: nope, not fixed. still no rollout, and the RP0 settings window seems bugged, at least for me :(
darsie has joined #RO
<darsie>
hi
<darsie>
How do I research better versions of the aerobee engine? I dedicated some points to research but I don't know where they are.
<darsie>
it says: part flight data meets or exceeds maximum lab R&D amount
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
hey darsie o/
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
that research is only for that very version of the engine
<darsie>
I'm makyng 17 sci/yr.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
if you have already unlocked later Rocketry nodes, that'll give you better versions of the engine
<darsie>
hmm, ok.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
even the emtpy nodes offer upgrades
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
you can also click on Engine UI of the Aerobee, then hover over the other, not yet available versions, they'll tell you the tech-tree node you need to unlock
<darsie>
Ok, got it. Requires early orbital rocketry
Pap|Sleep is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 06:40:41]: "for new science, it’d also be a good idea to add second-gen and third-gen crew reports (2nd-gen to the Gemini/Voskhod/etc and second and third gen to Soyuz and Apollo and everything after). Then there will actually be a reason to use those pods rather than just spam in a can."
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 07:49:31]: "the M55 SRM got its name changed from M55 to RO-M55. I thought I fixed that in the tree but it seems I did not. Can you?"
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 07:52:04]: "Can you find out what’s wrong i mean. Also the Boattail base isn’t showing up..."
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 08:07:30]: "ah, one other thing. ECM part names still need to be in `change all _ and . to - ` form. That applies to training as well. Because I just saw that the X1_Crew is seen as X1.Crew."
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
o/
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* Great idea bout the crew reports! Added
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<darsie>
need 7 more science.
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* The M55 got switched. The Engine Config had the corrected name, but the part did not. It looks correct in the spreadsheet now, I am assuming you fixed that?
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* The boattail shows up for me. It is in Post-War Materials Science node
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: did you check that your current RSS works with Cayley?
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Did you get your stuff fixed? NK released all new versions that should be fixing it
<Pap>
egg|zzz|egg: I don't even have 1.3 installed yet
<Pap>
^^^ Should probably do that
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: yes but NK told me he wanted the new RSS to release for 1.2.2
<Pap>
REALLY!?
<egg|zzz|egg>
instead of waiting for FAR
<Pap>
I thought RSS was version locked and only released 1 per KSP version?
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: therefore you can check with Cayley (which is not available for 1.3)
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: yes
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: I got the newest DLL, and the latest RP0 master. did not see any changes to KCT, so did not download that again. no change, no rollout, KCT seems a bit broken in my install.
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: therefore, 1.2.2
<Pap>
Ah, I will do that
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: switching to 1.3 only when FAR is out for that
qwertyy__ has joined #RO
<Pap>
KCT was definitely changed, but it is hosted in a new spot (will be the same spot going forward now) as things were too confusing Hypergolic_Skunk
<Pap>
hmmmmmmmmmm, He tested and it had fixed it on Speciman's version
<Pap>
So if you go to click RP-0 as the preset, it defaults to Custom?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yep
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
and 'Launchpad Reconditioning' and 'Reconditioning Blocks Pad' options can not be enabled/disabled
qwertyy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Did you download the newest RP-0?
<Pap>
That is where the fix is
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
master branch?
<Pap>
Nope, Dev Branch
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
argh
<Pap>
At 1:37 CST, NK pushed a fix to stop the resetting of KCT
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I got confused :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
let me try it RIGHT AWAY
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Every single day you are going to want to re-install that until NK finishes his mad dash of coding and changes!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I just wish there was a way to reimbourse you guys for all the work :( but yeah, that opens a whole can of worms on itself
UmbralRaptor is now known as NomalRaptor
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:O new loading screens?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
gorgeous <3
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
retirement date? woot? :D
dxdy has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
aaaaaaand Rollout is back <3
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
!tell NathanKell* sorry, my bad. I didn't know I need to use the Dev-branch of RP0. It's all fine :))
<Qboid>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
Theysen has joined #RO
<Theysen>
heya all
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
o/
<Theysen>
Do I see right that in new RP-0 dev I now have to right click any tank one more time to "purchase tooling"? Can anybody give me a quick explanation? Does it transfer to other builds? I'm stuck with moving and 0 time currently
<dxdy>
As far as I understand it once you have tooled for it then things will get much cheaper than if you try to build a tank of kind and dimensions that you do not have any tooling for
<Pap>
Theysen: Basically it is set at 4-5 times cost. So if you have a tank that is 2m x 10m, it will cost you 2000 to build as a one off. Tooling will cost something like 10,000 and then the cost of the tank will drop trmendously (these numbers are made up)
<Theysen>
Pap, no just asking if I need to click that every time I make a proc tank with slightly differing dimensions :)
<Pap>
You can then stretch the length (or shrink) the tank and it will be inexpensive, but if you increase / decrease the diameter, it will once again get very expensive
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
is that meant to simulate the difference between building a prototype, and building the machines to mass-produce stuff?
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Yes, it is basically meant to stop players from building slightly different LVs for every launch
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
which has been my approach up to now :'(
<Pap>
Mine too!
stratochief has quit [Ping timeout: 195 seconds]
<Theysen>
Pap, thanks! I'll fire it up now. this all exploded in the few weeks I couldnb't follow closely
<Theysen>
I like the restrictions for RP-0
<Theysen>
and thanks to Nathan posting the .dlls I can install now without asking awkwardly
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* Should there be a tooling discount from one type of tank to the next? As an example...I built my V-2 as 1.7m and tooled it. I then wanted to build my next generation launchers (Redstone) also at 1.7m to save some $. However, Tank 2 became available and I obviously wanted to upgrade to the lighter tank. It cost me the same to tool the 1.7m Tank II as it would have without the 1.7m tooling for Tank I. Is that the intended
<Pap>
functionality?
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
this is becoming an entirely new game..
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: It really is. There is a lot more planning that needs to go into things
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
good thing I suck at planning!
<Pap>
As NK and Ferram said the other day, Something like Saturn I becomes viable now. Say you have your Redstone tanks tooled, now, you just strap 6 of them together and voilla, you have Saturn I, instead of tooling a new 6.6m tank
<Theysen>
Tank I , Tank II ? Oo
<Theysen>
That's genius! And will split the "not putting much thought in" people like me from the pros
<Pap>
Oh yeah, Theysen they are completely different now. The old tanks are all gone, now there is Tank I that has Regular and Highly Pressurized, then there are new tanks Tank II, Tank III etc
<Theysen>
Cool and I know how what II and III stands for? :P Is there cryo and balloon all remaining? Welp I just play test and fail horribly
<Theysen>
learning by failing
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Theysen: join the club :D
<Pap>
As of right now, Cryo and Balloon are built into the advanced tanks. I know that NK is working on making them work as an option
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: should the Aerobee's alternative engines (XASR-1, AJ10-27) be available for purchase right away?
<Pap>
No Hypergolic_Skunk this is an issue that was happening to the Linux guys before. Are you on Linux?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Le Windows 10 :p
<Theysen>
MEIN GOTT, RO specific loading screens?!?!?!
<Pap>
That is what I thought
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Theysen: <3
<Pap>
Theysen: YES!!! That might be the best new feature he added
<Theysen>
I don't even mind theyre low res adf
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
maybe we can have a pool of best screenshots to be added for release
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Can you send me an image of the RP-0/Tree folder?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: sure
<Theysen>
frkn exciting times
<Theysen>
and this time i assume it's absolutely NEEDED to have a new tutorial series as well as updating all the githubz wikis ..
<Pap>
Theysen: Yes, that is going to be a big project, but it HAS to happen
<Pap>
If either of you have good images to use as loading screens, send them over and I will include them!
<Theysen>
Science parts and experiments look awesome
<Theysen>
if they all had their own models. One can dream
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: that is crazy and awesome. thanks for all the work you're putting in :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
and yeah, this will need a major tutorial
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
possibly in more than one language
<Theysen>
what happens when I don't tool item?
<Theysen>
ah the vehicle cost shrinks once tooled
<Pap>
Theysen: They will all have their own models
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: There is an issue where your techs are not being applied to the engines, let me download the latest Devs and take a look at what might have changed
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: ok :) thank you
<Theysen>
Pap, k I quit over the awesomeness now
<Pap>
Theysen: Do you have all engines available to purchase (as upgrades) from the start?
<Pap>
Theysen: Yeah, Coatl Aerospace and BDB gave us access to their models to have for the science parts!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
as in, engine variations
<Theysen>
Pap, will look after launching 1st rocket
<Theysen>
done, because I didn't have it pressurized. yay.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D
<Pap>
lol, I did it yesterday 4 damn times in a row!
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Did you download the dev version of RO as well?
<Theysen>
Pap, Hypergolic_Skunk Nope. I only have the starting node and I don't have ANY upgrades.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: yep!
<Theysen>
Current developmental and new .dlls though I don't they are influencing it
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I am booting now, will confirm
<Theysen>
Hypergolic_Skunk once again managed to nuke his install I believe. :) :P
<Pap>
^^^^^
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I know it's me 99% of the time :p
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I have two nodes green: 'Starting Parts' and 'Start'
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
but.. I see that RO-dev has been updated last night
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so I guess I'll get the newest version
Hohman has joined #RO
<Theysen>
Pap, give me a little heads up, tooling makes really no sense on smaller domes and such right? Or is non tooling penalized because the base price is drastically increased without tooling compared to before? Or didn't that change?
<Pap>
Theysen: I have found for one off things, tooling is not worth it. You will pay more up front, but if you are not re-suing the same small dome later on, it is not worth it
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I can confirm it is your install
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:P
<Pap>
Delete RO and RP-0 folders. Download most recent Dev versions of both
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
the thing is, the existing loading screens seem very historical, whereas mine... are all custom-built by someone who has never seen a rocket from up-close and knows little about early rocketry history and models :p
<Theysen>
Okay, my V-2 replica takes 9999 days to be build.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
^^
<Theysen>
already rekt it. GG
<Pap>
Theysen: that doesn't sound accurate :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
the entire WW2 didn't last that long :D
<Theysen>
exactly as germany pumped them out like crazy.
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Is that a Mercury flyby?
<Pap>
2194 Days of War
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: nope! it's ... err.. Pallas, I think
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
one of the objects from RSS Expanded
<Pap>
Theysen: Did you Tool your fairing and fairing base as well?
<Theysen>
nope
<Theysen>
only had a fairing bas
<Theysen>
does tooling affect build rate?
<Pap>
Yes as it is all tied into Cost (I believe, not positive of the formula)
<Theysen>
good to know. But shouldn't wreck it at one single 1.7 fairing base right?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: now the tech is locked :)
<Theysen>
When are you getting locked? :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
when they take my PC away - which means NEVER D:
<Theysen>
alright, KSP time over for now. Will do again tonight i guess. thanks for the quick update Pap, I hate being out of keeping up with whats happening but that's life. See you all
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
o/
Theysen has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<borntosleep>
<NathanKell> B_rnholio had the same issue ... did not work, stayed greyed on custom, i had selected rp0 and afterward it would not show alternate selected but did change values. it was set on RP0 from when i saved
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
borntosleep: we just fixed that issue for me
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
is it fixed for you now?
<Pap>
borntosleep: If you pull the latest DEV versions and the latest DLL's all should be fixed
* Pap
crosses fingers
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Wait until you see the best feature of all time that NK implemented
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
somehow I smell sarcasm
<Pap>
^^^ Usually a good guess, but this time, I mean it
<Pap>
You'll see when you start unlocking techs
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
before I do that - do you use those big-ass launch-clamps for sounding-rockets? would be nice to have a small alternative without using TweakScale on the FASA clamps
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: That is a good idea. I will duplicate those and make some smaller options. I currently use those FASA ones and TweakScale them, don't tell egg or NK
<egg|zzz|egg>
mooo
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D exactly what I do, but sometimes that makes them lose the fuel-pump functionality. irrelevant for sounding-rockets, though
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: as long as you use Principia I'm fine :-p
dxdy has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Wetmelon has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
grrr.. forgot to add the TinyTim as a kick-stage
<borntosleep>
cool, lots of backchat last night and videos to watch and guidance documents to read.... and busy day no ksp :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: did you mean the fact that nodes that are currently being researched change color? very nice and helpful indeed :) and maybe the entire R&D facility's bugginess has been reduced? :D
<Pap>
Exactly Hypergolic_Skunk !
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
\o/
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
all hail NK and Pap :)
<Pap>
^^^^Mostly NK
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
and he doesn't work for Squad/TakeTwo anymore?
<Pap>
Nope, he works for Valve now
<Pap>
On a super secret project
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:O
<Pap>
Him and 4 or 5 of the other KSP devs went there including taniwha and PorkJet
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
cool :)
<Pap>
Yeah, it is good for them for sure! And taniwha and NK are extremely helpful and nice so I hope the best for them
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
plus now they can lunch with Gaben
<Pap>
Dunno who that is
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:O
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
just google his name
<Maxsimal>
o/ Pap
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
to be fair, I have no idea who he is, either. I always assumed he's one of the bosses/lead devs at Valve
<Pap>
o/ Maxsimal better get some KSP time in before you miss it all!
<Maxsimal>
Btw, since you want to nerf low level cockpits not to go over a certain height limit, you could take the oxygen out of Junkers and He 111. Not sure what the ox-required height is, but I think it's fairly generous in RP0, so it would serve the purpose.
<Maxsimal>
trying - my gf is trying to make me play co-op stuff with her. Shame she didn't take to kerbal.
* NomalRaptor
thought NK ran OKB-276.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
that calls for an emergency GF Ejection
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:pp
<Maxsimal>
she did not like that suggestion at all.
Alisana has joined #RO
<Alisana>
He should eject me? -.-
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ok, then.. uhm... paint her green and call her Valentina
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:O IRL-invasion
<Alisana>
It's not like he's mostly playing Kerbal anyways, just some browser games about anime girls
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh oh, I can't deal with the drama. D:
<Maxsimal>
hahah it's fine :P She's being a goof
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Maxsimal: better get your wallet out and buy her something nice? like... a toy kerbal :P
<NomalRaptor>
Play Portal 2?
<Maxsimal>
We're gonna go play little big planet for a bit, but portal 2's a good suggestion. Was trying to get her to play borderlands 2 too.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I actually picked up Borderlands 2 last week again
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
can't wait to meet Shootey McFace <3
<Maxsimal>
get the DLC for it? How is it? I only played base.
<Pap>
LOL, this might be the first girl to ever enter the RO IRC
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: and the last :D
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Maxsimal: no, just the base-game, I think
<borntosleep>
RO is sexist bastion of Interweeb?
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Who knows.
<Pap>
Not sexist, just doesn't seem like KSP attracts many women. Which is a shame because we need more women in STEM fields
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I guess multiplayer would help with that, just because I believe women to be generally more social
<borntosleep>
more sexist comments, I must alight to social media and alert them
NomalRaptor is now known as UmbralRaptor
Ramh5 has joined #RO
Guest6727 has joined #RO
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* Did you remove the limitations on Procedural Parts sizes? I know we talked and planned on it, but didn't know if you did
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
Ramh5 has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
Guest6727 has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
B787_Bed is now known as B787_300
stratochief_ has joined #RO
stratochief has quit [Ping timeout: 195 seconds]
Guest6727 has joined #RO
<awang>
What do I need for a proper RP-0 install besides the custom RF and KCT dlls?
<Pap>
Dev Versions of both RO and RP-0
<awang>
Er, besides those too
<Pap>
That is it
<awang>
ok
<awang>
KCT dll is just the one from KSP-RO/KCT?
<awang>
RF dll somewhere in scrollback, I think...
<awang>
Unless there's a better download somewhere?
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7HmN
<github>
RP-0/Developmental c63d2cf Pap: Remove Diameter Limits on Procedural Parts...
Pap is now known as Pap|Mobile
TM1978m has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
SSTU tanks don't have tooling yet? *rubs hand like an evil genius*
Ezko_ has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
Theysen has joined #RO
Hohman has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 54.0.1/20170628075643]]
Guest6727 has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
Ezko_ has joined #RO
UmbralRaptor is now known as NonlocalRaptor
Shoe17 has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
<Pap|Mobile>
Correct Hypergolic_Skunk you can spam them all you want. :)
SRBuchanan has joined #RO
<Theysen>
!tell Pap*, I have a single question about the tech tree. Why is a solar panel required in the tree for getting Sputnik. I get it from the new concept point of view but still. Thank you
<Qboid>
Theysen: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap|Mobile>
Theysen: it isn't required? Sputnik is earlier in the tree than the first solar panel
<Qboid>
Pap|Mobile: Theysen left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 17:34:18]: "I have a single question about the tech tree. Why is a solar panel required in the tree for getting Sputnik. I get it from the new concept point of view but still. Thank you"
<Theysen>
Pap|Mobile, nope you need to have Early Sat Electronics to get the sputnik and other avionics pods
<Theysen>
tells me on requirements
<Maxsimal>
"Satellite Era Electronics Research" does show up as a requirement for "Early Avionics and Probes' - none of the probes have solar panels though. Maybe it should instead be a prereq for "Basic Avionics And Probes" - a lot of those have solar panels (using RN's probes)
<Theysen>
Exactly my thought and thus the question
aradapilot has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
egg|zzz|egg is now known as egg|nomz|egg
<Pap|Mobile>
There is an avionics node before before the Blue Sky Electronics node that unlocks the SXT Sputnik, isn't there? It is in my game.
<Pap|Mobile>
Sorry, I am on mobile so I cannot check till later. It is possible there is a mistake that I made somewhere along the way
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap|Mobile: I'll check
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Sputnik is in the node 'Avionics Prototypes' which comes before the node named 'Satellite Era Electronics Research'
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so before solar panels
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Theysen: do you have 'Hide Empty Nodes' enabled?
<Theysen>
Did I get fooled by the 20IN xray ball? gg
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:P
<Theysen>
Will doublecheck
<Pap|Mobile>
Ah, yes, that is the one that is later. :) Thanks for checking hy
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
kein problem, Pap! :p and as I try to avoid Procedural tanks anyway (they induce lagginess), I'mma continue using SSTU
aradapilot has joined #RO
<Theysen>
Yes Pap|Mobile, just checked. Didn't see that little sucker sitting in the first node
<Theysen>
okay, I reload my save and have -13 upgrade points available.
* Theysen
wipes all ksp installs there are
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
^^
stratochief has joined #RO
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
Pap|Mobile is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
\o
awang has joined #RO
<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 12:32:25]: "Great idea bout the crew reports! Added"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 12:33:06]: "The M55 got switched. The Engine Config had the corrected name, but the part did not. It looks correct in the spreadsheet now, I am assuming you fixed that?"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 12:34:09]: "The boattail shows up for me. It is in Post-War Materials Science node"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Hypergolic_Skunk left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 12:57:50]: "sorry, my bad. I didn't know I need to use the Dev-branch of RP0. It's all fine :))"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 13:06:04]: "Should there be a tooling discount from one type of tank to the next? As an example...I built my V-2 as 1.7m and tooled it. I then wanted to build my next generation launchers (Redstone) also at 1.7m to save some $. However, Tank 2 became available and I obviously wanted to upgrade to the lighter tank. It cost me the same to tool the 1.
<Qboid>
7m Tank II as it would have without the 1.7m tooling for Tank I. Is that the intended"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [12.08.2017 15:15:11]: "Did you remove the limitations on Procedural Parts sizes? I know we talked and planned on it, but didn't know if you did"
<NathanKell>
Theysen: You certainly have to start a new game.
<Pap>
o/ NathanKell you can disregard the last tell
<Theysen>
NathanKell, I did for the new stuff, updated everything.
<NathanKell>
Pap: The tooling discount exists, yeah :)
<NathanKell>
Added it yesterday
<NathanKell>
Theysen: THen you definitely shouldn’t have negative upgrades
<Pap>
<<< might not have been all the way up to date
<NathanKell>
:)
<NathanKell>
Alisana o/
<NathanKell>
Pap: For the record we have had some women involved in RSS/RO/RP-0, just not frequently.
egg|nomz|egg is now known as egg
<NathanKell>
hey egg
<egg>
moo
<Pap>
Ah, that is good to know NathanKell. May daughter is only 14 months, but I am doing everything I can to make space and science interesting to her
<NathanKell>
:)
<Pap>
s/may/my
<NathanKell>
That’s great :)
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: Ah, that is good to know NathanKell. my daughter is only 14 months, but I am doing everything I can to make space and science interesting to her
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell: may I just take a second to say my thanks for what you keep on doing with RP0? I am falling in love over and over again :)
<NathanKell>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Thanks so much! Do thank everyone else too, it’s not just me :)
<Pap>
NathanKell: How did you become so involved in women's activism while you were at school?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell: absolutely :)
<Theysen>
So when am I supposed to get "Tool Item" when I change diameters of a proc tank for example? Which "range" is purchased by clicking it?
<Theysen>
* what instead of when
<NathanKell>
I was brought up feminist, certainly, although more first wave than anything else; before going to college though I had done a fair amount of blog reading (it was the Bush years, I had to deal with it somehow) and feminist blogs featured heavily in my swath of politcal blogs (and what they sade made a lot of sense). Then at college, it was both via friends and also because for my philoshopy major
<NathanKell>
I focused on political and feminist philosophy.
<NathanKell>
(I was very involved in a political debating group, and then also helped a bit at the Women’s Center and wrote for an e-zine)
<NathanKell>
So basically it was a circle of things feeding each other
<Pap>
I have seen some of your stuff from the e-zine, that is why I had asked ;)
<NathanKell>
Ah :D
<egg>
!wpn Pap
* Qboid
gives Pap a Lipschitz hug
<egg>
!wpn NathanKell
* Qboid
gives NathanKell an invisible chocolate 2N3906
<Pap>
Awww, thanks for the hug egg
* Pap
thinks it might be a bad thing, does not speak German to know what the first word means
<NathanKell>
Ah, Pap, question: did you get the part ECM formula sorted, and re-exported?
<Pap>
No, I can do that quickly but I wanted to ask you when you came online
<Pap>
Is it for everything?
<Pap>
Before you had said no for engine configs
<SRBuchanan>
Man, and I love SSTU so much...
<NathanKell>
Column A on the ECM tab needs to replace _ and . with - when grabbing the part name
<NathanKell>
so e.e.g A23 goes from Bumper_Engine = A-4 to Bumper-Engine = A-4
<Pap>
ok, is that the only one?
<NathanKell>
Note only the part name (the left side) should get replaced
<NathanKell>
the right side should be untouched
<Pap>
OK
<NathanKell>
The engine configs are fine as is
<Pap>
This is going to be one fun formula :)
<NathanKell>
Oh, right, also--where do you put the ? in?
<NathanKell>
Is it in the name itself, or when exporting the patch?
<NathanKell>
if it’s in the name itself, you also need to replace ? with space in the ECM
<Pap>
It is in the name itself as when I converted it over orginally, there was never a time I didn't need it to be replaced
<NathanKell>
Ah
<NathanKell>
then the formula got longer :D
<Pap>
Are those replaced to " " ?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
just noticed that the interstate decoupler + fairing add 421 days of build time to a rocket that - without it - takes less than 70 days to build
<NathanKell>
They’re single character wildcards in MM. But we only ever use them instead of spaces, AFAIK
<NathanKell>
Hypergolic_Skunk: TOOLING.
<NathanKell>
Do it.
<Pap>
NathanKell: So do they need to be spaces for our purposes?
<NathanKell>
for ECMs, yes. For everything else, no
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell: :O you sneaky scumbags :D
<Pap>
OK, on it
<NathanKell>
:)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
thought it was only for tanks
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
makes sense though
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
(in hindsight)
<Pap>
NathanKell: When you have time later, would you be willing to show me how you have your environment setup in VS for KSP?
<NathanKell>
It’s for eeeeeeverything procedural
<NathanKell>
Pap: Sure thing!
<Pap>
Great, thanks
<NathanKell>
Actually I wrote the wiki tut, it should still be valid
<NathanKell>
But I’m happy to walk you through it personally too! :)
<NathanKell>
It says KSP_data but you should use KSP_x64_Data
<NathanKell>
that’s the only obvious issue I see
<NathanKell>
ok :)
<Theysen>
might be better to write it for SSTU whgen were on 1.3 since he changed so much lately
<NathanKell>
Theysen: Yeahbut...people want their SSTU
<Theysen>
1.3 sstu is superior anyways :P
<NathanKell>
Pap: Oh! Also! RSS used to get released very often. It’s just the last few KSP versions we haven’t had cause to update (or no one’s cared to make changes :D )
<Pap>
Ah, Good to know
stratochief has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<NathanKell>
I gotta AFK in a few. Anything pressing I need to fix?
<NathanKell>
(only away for an hour tho, so... :] )
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
just... is there a description on tooling?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
like a small faq?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
or is it too fresh for that? :P
<awang>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Q: What is tooling?
<awang>
A: Just use it
<awang>
:D
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: TLDR: Tool Everything unless you are only building one time
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
fair enough ^
<awang>
Anyone here remember what RealScience did in-game?
<awang>
If anything?
<awang>
Any UI/etc.?
wb99999999 has joined #RO
<Pap>
NathanKell: The formula in Column A is fixed. I'll export soon
<NathanKell>
Think of tooling like 'entry cost for procedurals'. Tooling for a given diameter is what costs most of the money; tooling for any given length for that diameter is usually pretty cheap. Each tank type has its own tooling (and tooling a 3m Tank II when you already have a 3m Tank I, the Tank II tools at reduced cost), but all fairing/interstage bases share tooling. Each type of fairing side has its
<NathanKell>
own tooling, as does each type of interstage side (but the ones that decouple are way more expensive). Structural parts/nosecones share tooling and are cheap. Generally if you fly with untooled parts you pay 1/4 of the tooling cost each time, so think about how many times you'll launch a given size part before deciding whether to tool.
<NathanKell>
Things with both a diameter and a length have length-specific tooling, whereas things with only a diameter (proc fairing bases, proc thrust plates) have only a diameter to tool for.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
cool, thank you
<NathanKell>
All conic/curved sections are treated as flat, so the tooling dimension and length of a fairing side is just its max diameter x total length
<NathanKell>
(same for the cone and smooth cone proc parts--it’s just max diameter x total length)
<NathanKell>
there, that should do it.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
<3
ProjectThoth has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
now I want to see you guys do Mars and Venus flybys in 1953 :PP
<NathanKell>
I have not yet added tooling to wings, but I plan to. SSTU too. Do make a note of any other procedural things that don’t have tooling options.
<egg>
NathanKell: so the plan still is to make the next RSS release for 1.2.2 right?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Now that we have modules that prevent cockpits from being used in space (unpressurized) or surviving reentry (nonreentryrated) maybe we should no longer gate away life support?
<NathanKell>
egg: correct, since I have no idea when RO’s required mods will be on 1.3 :]
<egg>
ack
<wb99999999>
Hey NathanKell: Is it very hard to find documents about Chinese vehicles?
<NathanKell>
...probably?
<NathanKell>
I dunno
<NathanKell>
Haven’t looked myself
<egg>
NathanKell: Pap: reminder that lest you test with the current Principia at the time of release, the wrath of the egg shall be upon you
<egg>
:-p
<NathanKell>
:]
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
someone make a picture of a wrathful egg
<NathanKell|AFK>
o/
<egg>
\o
<wb99999999>
I was daydreaming about seeing Chinese stuff in the future
<wb99999999>
But then I realize how little is there in terms of documents
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: cool about the global multipliers.
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: btw, have you considered tooling cost w/regard to integration price? When you add in the multipliers onto an untooled part, I'm not sure it every makes sense not to tool a procedural part.
<awang>
....help?
<awang>
anyone?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
awang: what's up? :)
<awang>
Did you ever play with RealScience?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh. no. sorry :)
<awang>
:(
<Rokker>
wb99999999: commie
<Pap>
^^^^
<wb99999999>
The second world do seems to have better rocket tho
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
wb99999999: if I were you, I'd hide right about now
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
before the Rokker gets you
<ProjectThoth>
*teleports behind you*
<ProjectThoth>
Nothing personell, kid.
<Pap>
Agathorn: Any chance you are available for 5 minutes to help good old awang ?
lamont has joined #RO
<awang>
When was the last time Agathorn was on?
<awang>
Thought he's been offline for quite a while
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
think I saw him a day or two ago
<Pap>
He has been gone for about a month or so
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
but he's on right now?
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
Guess I'm not around enough then
<Pap>
He is online, but hasn't talked in the IRC in a long time
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah
SpecimenSpiff has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
SpecimenSpiff: o/ you had the rollout-issue, too? have you already installed the newest RO-dev and RP-0 dev and KCT dll and thus fixed it?
ferram4 has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
stratochief has joined #RO
Pap is now known as Pap|Mobile
Theysen has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<SpecimenSpiff>
hypergolic_skunk, yes, got it fixed last night. once I had it working is when NathanKell sent you the ping
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah :)
<SpecimenSpiff>
so in the first production year of the aerobee, they launched around 60 of them. I'm starting to feel like I'm re-creating that
<wb99999999>
60? That's like once a week or something
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yeah, it's starting to look like I'll launch a lot of sounding rockets too before I get to actual orbital stuff
<awang>
Or all at once for July 4 :P
<wb99999999>
Aerobee is actually a very neat rocket...the liquid engine is pretty high tech by then
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yeah once you get the higher tech models...
<wb99999999>
Just have to remember to hot stage it
<SRBuchanan>
Huh. The SSTU GEM-40/46/60 (Modular) breaks *all* right-click part menus for me in the building interface when I try to right-click it.
<SRBuchanan>
Right-clicks on parts in the parts menu still register, so it isn't that weird 64-bit Unity bug.
dxdy has joined #RO
<wb99999999>
does these parts works at all? I remember they're buggy as hell
<SpecimenSpiff>
i havent tried the sstu solids
<SpecimenSpiff>
I normally have no problems with the sstu engines though
<wb99999999>
for me all of the modular solids are not functioning correctly anyway. engines are perfectly fine
<Maxsimal>
Ideally it'd be nice to build a few sounding rocket models and then have a fire-and-fire sounding rocket program that just earns you money based off of how efficiently you built your rockets - for now that's a pipe dream
<NathanKell>
Maxsimal: I have figured out how to do that, btw :)
<NathanKell>
I put that on the Current Todo List if you didn’t see :P
<Maxsimal>
Really? I did not see that, I'll go take a look
ferram4 has joined #RO
<NathanKell>
Pap|Mobile: column looks good!
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7HRv
<github>
RP-0/Developmental e680e4c NathanKell: Fix ECM parts file
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: So you have, cool. Yeah it'd be nice to factor in reliability of your rockets in some fashion as well. I kind of like how how crappy the WAC-corporal's is now, makes its low price more justified.
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 3 new commits to Developmental: https://git.io/v7HRY
<github>
RP-0/Developmental c2c094e Paul Boyle: Merge branch 'Developmental' of https://github.com/ppboyle/RP-0 into Developmental
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 3f63a55 Paul Boyle: Adjusted sounding rocket costs...
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 82b6efe NathanKell: Merge pull request #750 from ppboyle/Developmental...
<SpecimenSpiff>
4 launches in a row where I failed to hot-stage my wac correctly :( I think this version, the bumper has too much acceleration
<NathanKell>
Maxsimal: FYI I am fine with untooled parts causing a spike in rollout costs. Because those parts haven’t been QC’d at the factory, they’re built there, so they need extra QC.
<ferram4>
NathanKell, I am absolutely disgusted by this: http://i.imgur.com/6wWLnwu.png On the bright side, it's 1.3x F-1s of thrust in the space of an H-1.
<NathanKell>
What the everloving...
<NathanKell>
Fuel rich but 2.6 OF? :P
<NathanKell>
Vac Isp = SL ISp
<NathanKell>
This is insane.
<ferram4>
Look at the percent flow through the gg
<NathanKell>
Also the whole 50MPa thing
<ferram4>
Even on the worst engines it shouldn't go past ~5%
<NathanKell>
and yeah, just under half going to GG
<NathanKell>
550MW turbine
<ferram4>
If I allowed a higher turbine ratio I could probably improve things a lot
<ferram4>
But I have no idea if that would be allowed.
<ferram4>
Or doable, tbh.
<ferram4>
Although this does underestimate, given that I'm not handling exhaust thrust and that would be significant here.
<NathanKell>
Quite
<ferram4>
But still.
<ferram4>
10 MN out of an H-1. A very heavy and inefficient H-1.
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
<NathanKell>
Finally makes C-2 sensible :P
<NathanKell>
oh speaking of Saturn I
<NathanKell>
You got any ideas on how to add a mass penalty for clustered tankage?
<NathanKell>
Or *any* kind of penalty?
<NathanKell>
Since RF has mass as a function of volume there isn’t a mounting penalty
<ferram4>
NathanKell, incidentally, trying to get an expansion ratio that makes it work out better just results in an engine as large as the F-1 but somehow performing worse.
<ferram4>
Hmm
<ferram4>
Grab the surface-attached parts for a proc tank and then, if it's a decoupler, check what the parts surface-attached to that mass, otherwise use the surface-attached parts directly?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
good night folks
<NathanKell>
night
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Decouplers are a whole different question
<NathanKell>
I’m just thinking of a way to represent the structural mass keeping the tanks attached to each other
<ferram4>
Then grab surface attached proc tanks. Get their masses.
<ferram4>
Full masses, that is.
<ferram4>
Add an additional structural mass penalty to each of the ones attached. Boom.
<NathanKell>
yeah
awang has joined #RO
<ferram4>
Now, for the AMOUNT for the mass penalty, I have no idea.
* NathanKell
looks up S-I structural coeff
<ferram4>
Remember to subtract out the effects of the mounting plates at the bottom and top.
<NathanKell>
We also don’t account for thrust structures, as e of pi reminds me
<ferram4>
I thought we folded that into the engines themselves?
<NathanKell>
We used to; we stopped
<NathanKell>
we probably should.
<ferram4>
Oh.
<ferram4>
Well, then that's another penalty for attached engine thrust.
<NathanKell>
That’s linearly proportional to max engine thrust, yeah?
<NathanKell>
Except no
<NathanKell>
because it depends on how rigid the tankage above is
<NathanKell>
dang
<NathanKell>
that’s the stumbling block. Thrust frame for an early pressure-fed stage is minimal, compared to that for, say, Centaur
<ferram4>
Tank rigidity will be a function of diameter and length.
<ferram4>
A longer length, less rigidity.
<ferram4>
A larger diameter, more rigidity.
<NathanKell>
also sidewall thickness surely?
<ferram4>
Also, a factor for placement.
<ferram4>
Assuming constant sidewall thickness.
<NathanKell>
which we can’t :P
<NathanKell>
that’s the rub
<ferram4>
Well, surely you calculate sidewall thickness.
<NathanKell>
For every tank, yes.
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Btw, the mass fraction for pressurised tanks with payload seems extroardinarily high. 40%? Doesn't jibe with even early aerobees, nose code on them was only 7kg for a 68 kg payload.
<ferram4>
Excellent. So now you need to look up a correlation for buckling in a ring as a function of length and area moment of inertia.
<NathanKell>
Maxsimal: Yeah. That’s cuz the payload’s only being added to the high-pressure tank
<NathanKell>
ferram4: So basically the solution here is to require SSTU.
<ferram4>
Um... no?
<ferram4>
I thought this was being applied to the tanks themselves.
<NathanKell>
It’s of a piece with calculating real utilizaiton: it gets insane due to how we have to simulate a single stage with multiple ptanks
<NathanKell>
Maxsimal: Maybe add it to the regular tankI instead?
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: I can do that. I was just following what Pap did with Comsat payloads.
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
I agree about the weight penalty though yeah...
<NathanKell>
problematic
<SpecimenSpiff>
what are the odds that Jeb makes it past the Karman line and back home safely? http://imgur.com/a/5H1CJ
<dxdy>
is there a way to cheat aroudn the entry purchase required thing? I did all the entry purchases for the item and it still won't allow me to build it
<awang>
dxdy: Should be a difficulty option for that
<Maxsimal>
SpecimenSpiff: No TF failures on chutes yet - so probably pretty good - your rear wings look like they're barely sufficiently stability through
<dxdy>
yep, I know about that one, but I'd like to still have them, only to get around it for the one item that bugs aroudn
<NathanKell>
dxdy: details?
<awang>
Are there going to be any parts that TF *won't* affect at some point?
<dxdy>
there's not much in terms of details, it's the proc avionics, however since my current install is a wild mix of stuff that is and is not supported and not proper versions I'd rather not waste anyones time to debug it, because it's going to be due to something that isn't fault of RP-0/... but instead of mixing versions and stuff like that, so I'd prefer to just be able to get around it this one time since the rest seems to work fine
ProjectThoth has quit [Quit: ++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. ++?????++]
<NathanKell>
awang: edit the cfg to set the entry costs to cheap?
<NathanKell>
err dxdy sorry
<awang>
egg|work|egg: You plan on migrating Principia to c++17 soon after it is officially released?
<awang>
Or is there little in there that would help?
<egg>
awang: the answer is probably along the lines of "it's complicated"
<egg>
awang: we do use some bits of it already, e.g. optional
<egg>
but we need to keep working with MSVC
<SpecimenSpiff>
bumper engine failed early, so no karman line. but I got to 105km and home safe
<SpecimenSpiff>
way too much chute for some reason, i guess it didnt calc for 4 chutes currectly
<egg>
and there's a bug in VS17's MSVC at this time that prevents principia from building, it's known and scheduled to be fixed in the next version though
<SpecimenSpiff>
I specified 6m/sec, and im floating down at 1.2
<awang>
Oh? Interesting
<egg>
something about decltype in alias declarations
<awang>
Wait
<awang>
"The meow_n() algorithms previously failed to compile if the length argument was not an integral type..."
<awang>
"meow_n()"?
<Maxsimal>
SpecimenSpiff - Karman Line is 100km...
<egg>
Ꙩ_ꙩ
* awang
is trying to remember the last time he used decltype in an alias declaration
<NathanKell>
Maxsimal: I think I have just added num stages and num parts staged to rollout cost variables
<NathanKell>
what should the formula be?
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Did you (a) set ‘number of chutes’ correctly in the ‘chute parameters’ section of the UI (by ‘descent speed’), and (b) ***after*** placing the chutes for the last time, click on ‘apply to symmetry counterparts’ a few times in the GUI?
<awang>
egg: For some reason that makes me think that it's meant for the noexcept mess in type signatures
<awang>
But it's a pretty good idea
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Num parts stages is number of decouplers involved, or number of parts removed by the stage?
<egg>
awang: we don't have noexcept, we don't use exceptions
<egg>
awang: we simply die :-p
<awang>
Purist :P
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Or just counts number of parts in the stage diagram?
<NathanKell>
num stages is the number of stages shown in the editor. Num parts is the number of parts activated across all stages (i.e. a stage has 4 engines and 2 decouplers, the other stage has 3 launch clamps, that means 9 parts)
<awang>
What, next you're going to tell me you don't use RTTI?
<egg>
awang: or we return a status if applicable, e.g. in case of numerically bad behaviour
<egg>
awang: we do use ownership semantics everywhere, everything lives in unique_ptrs
<awang>
Planning on using std::variant?
<awang>
Well
<awang>
Except C++ doesn't have pattern matching
<egg>
don't see it being really all that useful
<egg>
I'm eagerly awaiting C++20's named aggregates
<egg>
only 37 years after Ada 83's :-p
<Maxsimal>
I'm still more in favor of something like decoupler mass % of total rocket mass. Whatever formula we use, I don't think the integration cost multiplier should be higher for say, tacking on 4x Castors than tacking on the SRB's from the Shuttle.
<awang>
lol
<egg>
Ada is (well, was) good :-p
<awang>
Always the cutting edge of programming language design
<dxdy>
actually a question for you two, awang, egg: how does one get into modern c++? My last state is of just about before c++11 came out, and am starting to want getting back into it, but it's hard to get an estimate of all the changes. Is there any good resource on that?
<dxdy>
(just asking because looking at principia it does seem like quite a modern c++ project compared to what I'm used to)
<awang>
dxdy: Find an old C++ codebase, and MODERNIZE EVERYTHING
<awang>
:P
<awang>
Or just look for places where strong typing would help
<awang>
Worked for me
<awang>
sort of
<awang>
idk
<awang>
egg is probably a lot more qualified than me to answer the question
<egg>
awang: I don't know, I never wrote C++ before 11
<awang>
Same here, actually
<awang>
I just happened to inherit an __old__ codebase
<awang>
As in still-had-MSVC-6-nonstandard-behavior old
<dxdy>
^^ gotta love that old code, spent half a day last week trying to debug what some pseudo-crypto library that some goon (who obviously had no idea about crypto) had written 2 decades ago but they had used because they didn#t have to bother with passwords with that library (?!) and it turned out the guy used the afx cstrings as char buffers, not considering that his entrie algorithm would break the day that there was more to string than an array of
<dxdy>
chars one character each.
<dxdy>
fun thing, whether the algorithm works depends entirely on the compiler options used for the library dll
<awang>
egg: Have you tried using clang with MSVC?
<awang>
dxdy: Legacy code is the best, isn't it
<dxdy>
it absolutely is, and I don't even have the worst job, two doors next to me is a guy whose entrie job consists of keeping access 97 applications up and running
<dxdy>
although I gather they're running out of VM's that can even run it at this point
<awang>
Oh god
<dxdy>
the horrors lurking behind that door I do not want to know of
<awang>
Please tell me where you work
<awang>
So I can stay far far away
<dxdy>
:D
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Yeah I dunno that there's anything we can do with that that can't be easily gamed, or worse, unfortunately exagerrated by someone who doesn't know better. Setting up your RCS in a separate stage shouldn't cause you penalties, for instance
<awang>
Couldn't you use Product<> from your units lib?
<awang>
Or do you want to avoid including more headers?
<awang>
Or something else?
<NathanKell>
Maxsimal: So should it *just* be staged parts?
<NathanKell>
i.e. “number of things that happen, in whatever order”
<NathanKell>
That said, having a separate step to enable RCS *does* add complexity
<SpecimenSpiff>
hm, I dont seem to have flight school. I was able to run the sim without any training, but now im looking for where to actually do the training, and I cant find it..
<egg>
awang: good point
<NathanKell>
RP0 button in the applauncher bar
<NathanKell>
then click astronauts
<NathanKell>
then click training
<egg>
awang: you can make a pull request :-)
<awang>
egg: Eventually
<SpecimenSpiff>
i dont see an rp0 button
<awang>
Also, why all the inline functions? I thought compilers nowadays usually ignored them
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Does it? Should I save money because I just use the R button instead of putting them ins tages?
<awang>
Er, functions marked "inline"
<Maxsimal>
brb
<egg>
awang: inline has little to do with inlining
<egg>
(C++ being weird like that)
<SpecimenSpiff>
ok, thats the green button that brings up maintenance costs, ok
<egg>
awang: inline means it's defined in the header
<NathanKell>
Maxsimal: You’re right it doesn’t take action groups into account
<egg>
awang: and we do lots of stuff in headers because most of it is templates, it makes little sense to make a translation unit for the few things that aren't templatized
<awang>
egg: That sounds somewhat redundant
<egg>
awang: welcome to C++ :D
<SpecimenSpiff>
so I train proficiency, then mission, then I can launch?
<awang>
What would happen if you got rid of the inline keywords?
<egg>
awang: there's no such thing as "being a header", what with includes just being textual inclusion
<egg>
so you get ODR violations
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: yep
<awang>
Ah
<SpecimenSpiff>
would be awesome if the kct warp timer could warp to end of training
<SpecimenSpiff>
my training is 242327.3% complete
<awang>
egg: I think I asked you before, but I don't remember the answer
<awang>
Why not_null<T*> instead of T&?
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Uh oh
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Did you do a pull?
<NathanKell>
how recently?
<NathanKell>
Did it say for the X1, or for the X1.Crew ?
<soundnfury>
So, you know how the KSP music is mainly CC stuff from Kevin MacLeod?
<SpecimenSpiff>
x1.crew
<SpecimenSpiff>
and I pulled sometime last night
<soundnfury>
it's just, one of the YouTubers I regularly watch also uses CC music from Kevin MacLeod.
<awang>
"Fixed warning C4061 'enumerator "Meow" in switch of enum "Kitten" is not explicitly handled by a case label'"
<awang>
What's up with the MSVC devs
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Pull again.
<NathanKell>
I fixed all that last night, after your pull
<NathanKell>
read yo chat :P
<NathanKell>
(and always do a pull and update before you launch KSP)
<awang>
NathanKell: You should add a startup message to the RP-0 dev branch
<awang>
Big bold letters
<awang>
MAKE SURE YOU PULL BEFORE CONTINUING
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Yeah - you can action group everything if you want, that's one thing. To me though, the big issue is that the staging penalty should be - it costs more to have a 4 stage rocket than a 3 stage rocket, but KSP staging means you might have 3 stages in the diagram, or 10, but still really 'only' have a 3 stage rocket
<egg>
awang: so, several things
<NathanKell>
Maxsimal: Except it does add complexity to have a 3 stage rocket with ullage motors, vs a 3 stage rocket with hotstaging.
<NathanKell>
Not the same amount of complexity as a 4 stage rocket of course.
<SpecimenSpiff>
do I need the kct dll again? I didn't bookmark that spot
<NathanKell>
So probably the number of parts should be weighted by part cost?
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Sure, but now much? Does having ullage motors add as much cost as having another whole 'real' stage?
<egg>
awang: first, not_null<T*> checks, T& summons UB (and fails only when you actually use the thing it refers to, far down the line)
<SpecimenSpiff>
although its in the issue, isnt it
<egg>
awang: second, we use pointers vs. references to document lifetime requirements
<egg>
if you take a reference, you do not require what you take to outlive the call
<egg>
if you take a pointer, you might keep it
<awang>
egg: Makes sense
<awang>
Although I'm somewhat surprised that dangling references would pop up
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: And doing decoupling and ullage at the same time shouldn't save money - if anything, it's more dangerous, and I don't see how the engineering gets simpler (maybe it is with VERY low tech avionics, I guess)
<awang>
I'm not exactly experienced, though, so...
<egg>
awang: well, it happens, much like a pointer can be null even when you don't expect it :-p
<awang>
Touche
<egg>
(you take your pointer, dereference it and feed it into a reference, and there you go)
<awang>
egg: Rewrite in Rust pls
<egg>
hah
<NathanKell>
the engineering does not get simpler. The tests do, because you’ve got one fewer staging event. Although I agree it’s effectively all part of one staging event I guess
<NathanKell>
Ok, fine. You come up with a system. :P
<egg>
awang: afaict from talking to whitequark, Rust wasn't up to the task when we started
<egg>
(and even now it doesn't have genericity over values, only over types, so Quantity would get ugly)
<awang>
How dare you not use Rust :P
<awang>
Isn't Rust missing some forms of constexpr functions, too?
<awang>
Also, there's always Idris
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: I gave you what I thought was most reasonable -1st make decoupler masses sane, 2nd: Use % of decoupler mass as a cost multiplier. Say, 1.5x cost per 1% decoupler mass. That's still not perfect, but it's less gameable.
<awang>
For the ultimate in typechecking :D
<NathanKell>
Yes. So come up with that.
<egg>
awang: as far as typechecking goes, our libs are really good :-p
<egg>
strongly-typed reference frames ftw
dxdy has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<awang>
But even stronger typechecking?
<NathanKell>
I appreciate that you are trying to come up with un-gameable systems. But they also have to be implementable in reasonable time frames by people who can.
* darsie
flew at nearly 6 km/s above Earth.
<egg>
awang: it's not so much the typechecking as the memory safety that would be attractive in Rust
<NathanKell>
I was able to implement the stage-based one in the last 30 minutes.
<Maxsimal>
Heh ok. Sorry I realize it would be easier if I saw a reasonable way to do it with your parameters, I'll give it more thought too.
<NathanKell>
Yours...I sure as heck don’t have time for myself. I agree it’s better, but *someone* has to do it.
<egg>
the strength of the typechecking is mostly up to how you write your libs
<awang>
egg: Indeed. No need to bother with not_null<T*> vs T&
<awang>
Or unique_ptr
<NathanKell>
Shouldn’t be too bad to make a partmodule that detects everything below it (for anchored decouplers) or everything above it in the stack (for stack decouplers)
<NathanKell>
then masses to fit.
<awang>
"What do you mean void* isn'g safe?"
<egg>
awang: well rather, it's built into the language and checked by the borrowЧК
<awang>
egg: Close enough
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: That's true, I understand that - but I think in this case, having no stage-based integration cost is better than one that may yield undesireable results, at least that's my opinion, at the moment.
* egg
applauds NathanKell for properly using ’ rather than '
<NathanKell>
the current formula is (0.8 + (([SN]^0.5)*0.02) + (([SP]^0.5)*0.05)) which seems to yield acceptable results IMO. But I am happy to remove it pending testing, or something better
awang has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<NathanKell>
Note too that this at least does penalize clusters of engines, whereas something purely decoupler based doesn’t even touch it
awang has joined #RO
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Yeah true - I mean, you can go with that, the variance between a very stage-heavy rocket and a bare bones is 10-15%. I would swap the .02 and .05 though - I think % of stages is more signifiicant than % of stage parts?
<NathanKell>
Ah I’d have thought the reverse--a 2 stage rocket with 40 engines (30+10) is way more complex than a 5 stage rocket with one engine per stage
<NathanKell>
or maybe not? Dunno
<soundnfury>
awang: void * is perfectly safe as long as you use it safely
Senshi has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
<Maxsimal>
If it's 40 engines, yes. If it's 40 RCS ports, not so much? I dunno either.
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: depends, are all the engines the same?
<Maxsimal>
I gotta run, I'll give it some thought though and send you a tell if I have an epiphany.
Maxsimal has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
<NathanKell>
ok! :)
<awang>
soundnfury: But what happens if you don't?
<soundnfury>
from an engines-and-stages point of view I'd almost say F9 is simpler than F1, for instance
<soundnfury>
awang: then you are a bad programmer and should have your keyboard confiscated
<NathanKell>
Urf, there’s no good answer here indeed
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: I'd agree with Maxsimal, don't try to do stage-based costs at all
<NathanKell>
So how would you model complexity then?
<soundnfury>
I wouldn't.
<NathanKell>
...
<NathanKell>
huh?
<soundnfury>
Real engineering firms, and also NASA, can't predict how much something will cost.
<soundnfury>
What makes you think we can :P
<NathanKell>
...
<soundnfury>
…
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7Hgl
<github>
RP-0/Developmental f29f1f0 NathanKell: Initial temporary stage-based costing. SUBJECT TO CHANGE AND REMOVAL.
<NathanKell>
So it’s at least in git ^
awang has joined #RO
<SpecimenSpiff>
NathanKell|Twitch, I jsut got the 2nd tier of solids, and unlocked an aerojet solid that seems to be just the tiny tim again, in fact it's part name is tiny tim.
<SRBuchanan>
If I recall the Aerojet one offers more performance.
Alisana has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
borntosleep is now known as Bornholio
<Bornholio>
rokker, please keep your rule 34's to yourself :P NK does not like that place in the video