<Bornholio> pap are you on?
<Pap|AFK> Bornholio: I am, but on mobile, what's up?
<Bornholio> making sure there is no longer a alternate KCT config for RP_0 and i'm testing correctly\
<Bornholio> looks like its 50k a point and other things are working
<Bornholio> dang tooling costs are a bear
<Pap|AFK> That sounds correct. I am excited to try the tooling costs today to feel the real pain
<Bornholio> have a fun evening out
<Pap|AFK> Nah, I'm working around the house. Almost done with painting, yard work. Waiting for the pizza to get here
<ProjectThoth> Boneless?
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<NathanKell|AFK> How is it working?
<Bornholio> new rf dll must have broke my sepatrons
<Bornholio> tooling costs of 85k for a wac/a4 BUMPER
<Bornholio> CAN'T DUMP FUE;
<Bornholio> can't dump fuel using SM
<NathanKell|AFK> Hmm weird
<NathanKell|AFK> Seps broke how?
<Bornholio> no fuel
<Bornholio> are tank i's really weak?
<Bornholio> blew up on reentry i normally survive
<Bornholio> guess it was full
<Bornholio> since i couldn't start my was :P
<NathanKell|AFK> Hmm, they should have same temps as normal RF proc tanks
<ferram4> Snrk
<ferram4> Rokker, get hype: http://i.imgur.com/VIs71c6.png
<ferram4> Procedural engines gas gen sim actually works.
<Rokker> holy fucking shit
<Rokker> ferram4: even more shit for me to learn in RO
<Rokker> this is gonna be awful
<ferram4> Rokker, from before: more validation testing: assuming an overall efficiency of 0.9 for the thrust chamber, an engine with 7 MPa of pressure, a 3.7m nozzle, a 16:1 ratio running at 2.25 O/F burns 2.695 t/s, creates 6.877 MN at 260.2s at SL and 7.857 MN at 297.3s in Vac
<ferram4> Aka, fuckyeah F-1
<Bornholio> NK came back to VAB going to send a second identical launcher, tanks have tooling cost, now less but still 5 k for 1.7m tank with no changes
<Bornholio> c ost me 40k before
<NathanKell|AFK> Dang k length not getting recorded right
<Bornholio> also no ability to put sounding rocket payload in tank
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<Bornholio> really pushed costwise to use stock tanks
<Bornholio> unless you are going to tooling cost those too
<Bornholio> back for my make a tank from 3-4 proc parts normal design
<Bornholio> bad
<taniwha> NathanKell|AFK: how precise do you prefer mass to be? kg? 0.1kg?
<taniwha> same for volume
<NathanKell|AFK> Them too
<NathanKell|AFK> Taniwha ?
<taniwha> calculating part mass from its volume (and resource capacity from part volume)
<taniwha> how precisely does RO specify things
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<taniwha> however, this is more for me since you guys would go get the actual specs
<NathanKell|AFK> We go to the gram level if data is available
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<taniwha> that's pushing things for float mass
<Pap> o/
<taniwha> hi, pap
<Pap> Hiya taniwha
<taniwha> (especially when you get 100s-1000s of tons for the rocket)
<taniwha> preparing to check out the ranger panel in KSP :)
<Pap> How is that fun "procedural" building blocks thing, that you were creating, coming along?
<taniwha> parts or the cfg stuff?
<Pap> Either / Both
<taniwha> cfg stuff is /nice/
<taniwha> those parts drove the cfg devel :)
<Pap> Wow, I didn't know you could use Data storage in CFG files like that
<taniwha> my export script reads and parses that, and if you have empties named node_*, creates NODE nodes :)
<taniwha> Pap: you can't
<taniwha> this is all done in python in blender
<Pap> Ohhh, you are using a script to process the actual values, got it
<taniwha> the export calculates the volumes, too (based on the assumption that the solidify modifier is added to some parts for calculating skin thickness)
<taniwha> and the modifier is set to not show when rendering (no render = no export:)
<taniwha> so it calculates the volume of the preview mesh to get skin volume and the volume of the render mesh to get external volume
<taniwha> skin volume * density gives mass, external volume - skin volume gives capacity
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<Pap> Once again I am reminded that I am surrounded by very smart people
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<Bornholio> NK this time it remembered all my tanks tooling being done
<taniwha> oh, for crying out loud
<taniwha> ('\ufeffPART', <io_object_mu.cfgnode.ConfigNode object at 0x7f866eef3b38>, 7)
<taniwha> no wonder it wouldn't work :P
<Bornholio> thats what she said
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<leudaimon> I stayed away for mostly a week and things have changed so much I don't even understand what you guys are talking about...
<leudaimon> what is this thing with tank tooling?
<Pap> leudaimon: It is going to be a rude awakening for all of us trying to figure out what NK has done with Tooling Costs!
<Bornholio> its evil
<SpecimenSpiff> NK has a prototype going that lets you build "tooling" to make tanks of certain dimensions. If you dont have tooling and are making one-off tanks, they are very expensive
<Pap> Bornholio: is it working enough for me to test it now?
<leudaimon> oh cool
<SpecimenSpiff> but once you have bought tooling for say, 2m tanks, then 2m tanks cost what you would normally expect
<Bornholio> yes, but i have broken srb's
<Pap> All SRB's, or procedural ones?
<Bornholio> i only have tiny tims and sepatrons
<Bornholio> both are missing fuel
<leudaimon> that will be very nice... less forgiving, but very nice... what about lenght?
<Starwaster> ok I SHOULD know the answer to this but I don't... what happens if volume is omitted from an MFT config? Does it just calculate it on the fly from total TANKage?
<Pap> Ah, I did read your comment about sepratrons
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<Pap> leudaimon: length can be stretched or shrunk for slightly higher cost, but nothing like trying to change the diameter
<leudaimon> ah, very realistic then, cool
<leudaimon> will force people to develop LVs, instead of tweaking every launch
<Pap> stratochief: is going to come back when his life calms down and not recognize the game
<leudaimon> lol
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<stratochief> Pap: agreed :)
<stratochief> current forecast, ~3 weeks?
<Pap> stratochief: 3-4 weeks I would guess
<leudaimon> but what about smallish service module tanks for probes for example? those should always be one-offs
<Pap> However, I am going to try and possibly talk us into pushing it to a full 1.3 release since this will be save breaking and so will 1.3, but that might not be a realistic option
<SpecimenSpiff> yep, and thus expensive
<Pap> leudaimon: that is a good question
<Pap> Ah, that makes sense, it should be expensive
<Pap> Unless you plan on making many of the same SM's, then you buy the tooling save $$
<leudaimon> also small spherical tanks for RCS would be in a strange situation
<Pap> leudaimon: I know that NK was looking at the tank shapes, I don't know if he was excluding/including any or all of them
<leudaimon> oh... he uses those so much! I would be surprised if he left those out
<leudaimon> but no more using tanks for nose cones I guess
<Pap> Does anyone on here want to contribute some descriptions for Engines?
<Pap> leudaimon: that is a good point! Damn, I used to use those tanks for everything
<leudaimon> exactly!
<taniwha> and why would no no longer be able to use tanks for nose cones?
<leudaimon> well, there will be a lot of relearning that might be quite nice
<Starwaster> yeah...
<SpecimenSpiff> I've started using proc avionics in round shapes where I would have a "filler" tank dome
<SpecimenSpiff> at least if i need avionics on that stage
<Pap> SpecimenSpiff: That is a clever idea
<leudaimon> what about that stretchy tanks mod that was being developed?
<leudaimon> wasn't it supposed to be exactly what NK is developing here?
<Pap> Yes leudaimon but Saab hasn't been around in a long time, so NK decided to move forward with this
<leudaimon> I see... yeah, the idea is really cool... is he developing some way of improving the utilization thing, to make it progress better with TL or tank type?
<leudaimon> I guess this overhaul would be the moment for that
<taniwha> are the ranger panels single or dual sided?
<Pap> taniwha: single sided
<Bornholio> my rocket attack on texas is falling short NO!
<Bornholio> yes made it, lost half my probe but core and parachute survive
<Bornholio> does a parachute increase rollout cost by some multiplier?
<taniwha> Pap: thanks
<taniwha> they think they're retracted, and the animation isn't hooked up properly anyway, but...
<taniwha> Pap: NathanKell|AFK ^^
<Bornholio> i would tear my hair out in frustration at the new pricing framework. stuck playing with small rockets and no manuever nodes for a long time
<Pap> taniwha: B-E-A-youtiful
<taniwha> ah, I need some more edge-splits. have some weird normals
<taniwha> but my first foray out of KSP/Diffuse land is a success: http://taniwha.org/~bill/screenshot4186.png
<taniwha> KSP/Bumped Specular :)
<leudaimon> oh, is that a ranger-like hinged solar panel?
<leudaimon> I miss something like that, before the retractable ones, so much
<Pap> leudaimon: taniwha is making that for us to have
<leudaimon> \o/
<taniwha> just need to fix the animation (a matter of sorting out the actions in blender before exporting)
<leudaimon> nice work taniwha!
<taniwha> thanks
<ProjectThoth> taniwha: Looks sharp!
<taniwha> the frame uses a 512x512 flat texture (can add smudges etc, but no need for details)
<taniwha> the solar panels use 1024x1024 textures, for a 4x2 set of panels
<taniwha> so effectively 11k texture
<Pap> !tell NathanKell* I think we need to set rollout costs independent of the Tooling vs No Tooling costs. If possible, we should set it at the base cost of the tank, not the non-tooled cost of the tank. It increases the rollout cost by way too much
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap> leudaimon: great news! I am building my first rocket, the usual .3 m WAC that everyone builds. I paid $5800 for the tooling of a .3m tank. I can now create nosecone tanks at the same diameter for just as cheap as normal
<leudaimon> oh, cool!
<leudaimon> NK definitely knows his stuff
<Pap> Sure does!
<leudaimon> and I'm probably going to use this 0.3 diameter for the spherical RCS tanks throughout the game too then
<Pap> Oooh, let me see how taht works
<Pap> As of right now, the fillet cylinder is not included in the tooling costs setup
<leudaimon> ah, ok
<leudaimon> I'm guessing tooling price grows exponentially or at least quadratically with the unlocked diameter, right?
<taniwha> quad, I believe
<Pap> .4m is 7660, .5m is 9645
<leudaimon> could be cubic...
<leudaimon> what about 1m?
<Bornholio> its d^2+l+d+base
<taniwha> leudaimon: wouldn't make sense
<taniwha> hmm, that's linear
<leudaimon> if that formula is correct it's not linear
<taniwha> leudaimon: went by pap's numbers
<taniwha> though the cost ratio is 1.259 rather than 1.25
<leudaimon> Bornholio, do you know where is this code?
<Bornholio> there is an RF DLL ^^^
<Bornholio> <NathanKell> And use this RF dll https://www.dropbox.com/s/vbr4hj6u7zlem4h/RealFuels.dll?dl=1
<Bornholio> plus dev RO/RP-0
<leudaimon> well, no way to look for it in the dll if it's there... I'll look into the dev RP-0 branch to check
<Pap> !tell NathanKell* I believe that we need to add ElectricCharge to the Tank-I-HP, as well as we need to add back in the Sounding Rocket Resource, ComSatBus and WeatherBus. I see the NewRFTanks.cfg that you added, but I want to make sure I understand exactly what you are doing before I touch it
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<leudaimon> oh, lots of different tanks now!
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<taniwha> man, configuring solar panels is tricky
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<Bornholio> 3 years to have a tracking station :/
<leudaimon> outch... low on BP/s
<leudaimon> ?
<Bornholio> at 50k per yes, all my initial + a couple more into build rate
<leudaimon> 50k per point? wow, NK decided to kill us all
<Bornholio> 5x reward is base
<leudaimon> ah ok then
<Bornholio> set 500% reward for normal 300% if hard
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<Pap> Taniwha the animation is difficult, or the config details?
<Bornholio> but buildings are x15 or more cost
<Pap> Bornholio: how are you still playing without EC in
<Bornholio> v2 avionics
<Pap> and payloads in tanks? Using non procedural for it?
<taniwha> Pap: config details, but got them sorted
<Pap> Ah
<taniwha> (turns out I needed that pivotName)
<Pap> Ah
<Bornholio> yeah no payload is causing problems
<taniwha> however, now I've got "direct sunlight, sun exposure 0.00"
<Pap> Taniwha that is all about how the EC rate is setup I believe
<taniwha> ah, now it's working
<taniwha> was due to testing methods
<leudaimon> direct sunlight doesn't necessarily mean it has good exposure...
<taniwha> indeed, but it was facing the sun pretty directly
<taniwha> hmm, more transform issue
<Bornholio> NK may have broken some identical part cost (X-1 cockpit and Conic cockpit spend 6k each)
<Pap> Bornholio: That was me
<Pap> A lot of them are going to be broken until we get them all reconfigured :(
<Bornholio> k
<Pap> But then almost all parts in the game will have legit modifiers
<taniwha> ah, no, I had broken it
<leudaimon> Pap, I was looking at the tooling code, didn't figure out the formula I was looking for very well, but apparently the fillet cylinder tanks are included
<Pap> Hmm, it spit an error when I selected it, might have to tell NK
<taniwha> now just to fix the attach point
<taniwha> node
<Bornholio> can put payload in toriodal tank :P
<Pap> !tell NathanKell* The Fillet Cylinder is throwing an error of "[ModuleTooling]: Could not bind to procpart fields" and is not setting the costs to be un-tooled. It does, however still have the Tool Tank GUI with costs for that
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<taniwha> Pap: it looks like this panel will be done soon
<Pap> Bornholio: Can't actually put payload in anything as of right now
<Pap> Bornholio: I am editing the file and should have a hotfix to you shortly for that
<Pap> Bornholio: Reloading and testing it now
<Pap> taniwha: That is awesome!
<Pap> taniwha: Are you going to release it for stock as well?
<Bornholio> i'm getting by with a tweakscaled toriodal tank
<Pap> All tanks that are not Procedural should work, no?
<Bornholio> yes
<Pap> As long as their configured tank type is Fuselage or ServiceModule at least
<Bornholio> pap the proc service module, I tank type also does not take payloads
<Pap> No Bornholio, NK forgot to add the payload resource back in for the new tanks. That is the fix I am testing now
<Pap> Excellent! The fix worked great!
<Bornholio> Allen Fowler in the Blossom Fairy I heads to the Karman line will he make it to space!
<leudaimon> Pap btw, what about cryogenic tanks?
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rgn
<github> RP-0/Developmental 4b5cf4f Pap: Added addPayload tag to New Tanks...
<Pap> Bornholio: That fixes the issue
<Bornholio> k i'll try it in the morning
<Pap> leudaimon: I am guessing that they have not been added yet. NK has some functionality built in for insulation, but nothing calls for them yet. I am assuming it is coming soon. TM
<leudaimon> ah cool... I was wondering if the higher levels of the already created had insulation enough to be cryogenic
<Bornholio> really need to find the realchute default altitude and change it. why 30k, it never works...
<Pap> leudaimon: Actually it looks like Tank-III-Balloon has additional wall thickness and insulation added to it when a Cryo fuel is in it
<Pap> Bornholio: is that also the highest altitude you can choose?
<Pap> Bornholio: I am asking because it is a very easy MM fix that we should probably include, because it is annoying and as you said never works
<leudaimon> cool Pap
<leudaimon> probably makes cryo tanks unnecessary
<Pap> I think that was his plan, to limit the amount of tanks you had to choose from
<leudaimon> does this happen for regular tanks too?
<Pap> It does not
<Bornholio> i'll look
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<Bornholio> 140km is max
<Pap> ok, what is an appropriate altitude to set default deploy at?
<leudaimon> 5km?
<Bornholio> i always set them at 3k unless i forget, 5 k is probably good
<Pap> ok
<leudaimon> I usually go for 3 or 2.5... 5 is conservative, so should be ok
<leudaimon> or pre-deploy at 5 and deploy at 1
<Bornholio> some chutes though will default to pressure, but i never use those
<Bornholio> mk 16 defaults to 0.01 atm
<leudaimon> I have no idea of good values for atm... never used those
<leudaimon> but 0.01 seems so low
<Bornholio> same for mk16xl, 0.07 for the mk25. for stage recovery i set them to 0.5atm
<Bornholio> but with realchute i always set to km altitude even extraterestrial
<Pap> OK, booting now for a test, if this patch works correctly, all parachutes that use RealChute will use Altitude (not Pressure) and will Deploy at 5000 and 1000.
<leudaimon> very nice Pap
<Bornholio> watch out for double chutes though
<Pap> ah leudaimon you missed the "if this works part" :)
<leudaimon> ;)
<Pap> I took care of that as well Bornholio
<Bornholio> k
<Pap> Again **if it works**
<Pap> :)
<leudaimon> does it apply for drogues too?
<NathanKell|AFK> Yeah sorry forgot.
<Qboid> NathanKell|AFK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 02:41:30]: "I think we need to set rollout costs independent of the Tooling vs No Tooling costs. If possible, we should set it at the base cost of the tank, not the non-tooled cost of the tank. It increases the rollout cost by way too much"
<Qboid> NathanKell|AFK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 02:53:13]: "I believe that we need to add ElectricCharge to the Tank-I-HP, as well as we need to add back in the Sounding Rocket Resource, ComSatBus and WeatherBus. I see the NewRFTanks.cfg that you added, but I want to make sure I understand exactly what you are doing before I touch it"
<Qboid> NathanKell|AFK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 03:19:49]: "The Fillet Cylinder is throwing an error of "[ModuleTooling]: Could not bind to procpart fields" and is not setting the costs to be un-tooled. It does, however still have the Tool Tank GUI with costs for that"
<Pap> NathanKell|AFK: you can disregard Tell 2 completely
<NathanKell|AFK> Dang about the fillet. Will fix in 10.
<Pap> leudaimon: Yes, it will apply for all. I can set some different guidelines since all Drogue chutes in RC are setup as Kevlar. I can make it so that if there is a material of Kevlar it will use different parameters
<NathanKell|AFK> Resources should be in tank i hp I guess but I'm not even?
<leudaimon> oh, never noticed drogues are always kevlar
<NathanKell|AFK> Btw all proc parts will get tooling. Fairings, bases, nosecones, etc
<Pap> NathanKell|AFK: I pushed a commit that fixes the Payload resources (I tagged you in it to make sure that is how you want it to be setup)
<NathanKell|AFK> Non proc tanks will need their own entry costs
<leudaimon> NathanKell|AFK, once a given diameter is tooled it applies for everything, or do you need independent toolings for different parts and tank types?
<NathanKell|AFK> Semi independent
<NathanKell|AFK> Tank I and tank iv will be different
<leudaimon> wow, the more I hear about this, the more I like it
<NathanKell|AFK> SMs have lower one off costs
<leudaimon> great, that's the kind of tank you will use in few or only one mission
<NathanKell|AFK> Pap I agree about launch costs but we can't do that right now
<Pap> damn, ok
<NathanKell|AFK> The code for all this is in RP0 btw
<leudaimon> yeah, I was looking into it to try to find out how the tooling price is related to the diameter...
<Pap> NathanKell|AFK: What is the MM syntax to only modify a part of a config if one of the children of that config = a specific value? Here is what I mean. I have this heading of PARACHUTE (with no name), and underneath that is a "material = " field. I want to only patch if that field = Kevlar
<taniwha> turns out that due to a bug in KSP, you can't use NODE{} for surface attach nodes
<Pap> leudaimon and Bornholio: you will be happy to know the the config **works** a little more tweaking and I think I will have it nailed down
<taniwha> (because there's no way to tell the new node it's an attach node)
<leudaimon> cool Pap \o/
<Bornholio> .cheers
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<NathanKell> Pap: @PARACHUTE:HAS[#material[Kevlar]
<NathanKell> ]
<Pap> you are the best
<NathanKell> :)
<NathanKell> So, back for realz.
<NathanKell> I'm slightly shocked it's working as well as it has
<Pap> lol
<NathanKell> final recompile was 3 minutes before I left :D
<NathanKell> No idea why it's killing solids btw
<leudaimon> I'm definitely starting a career with this new system tomorrow or monday... how difficult to set it up is it?
<Pap> leudaimon: not difficult at all
<leudaimon> cool, lots of changes to get used to... will be fun
<leudaimon> what about the new biomes Pap? is it merged into RSS?
<Pap> leudaimon: Yes they are, but the textures are located elsewhere
<NathanKell> The one ticklish part is you need an RF dll
<NathanKell> the rest is just the dev branches fo git
<NathanKell> of*
<NathanKell> speaking of, have the entry costs been working?
<NathanKell> I.e. config unlocks
<NathanKell> That I didn't get to test *at all*
<Pap> NathanKell: I am booting that up now to test
<Pap> What is a good order to try?
<NathanKell> WAC->XASR->AJ10-27
<Pap> ok
<NathanKell> That right away will tell you if you save any money
<NathanKell> then AJ10-37
<taniwha> Pap: NathanKell: This is not properly packaged for a mod, but... http://taniwha.org/~bill/ranger-panel.zip
<taniwha> has source blend (needs latest pull from my io_object_mu repo to export), .mu, .cfg and .png files
<NathanKell> \o/
<taniwha> oh, I forgot to remove the debug verts
<Pap> You are awesome!
<taniwha> fixed, redownload
<Pap> Can we include this directly into RO and edit the config for our use?
<taniwha> certainly
<NathanKell> <3
<Pap> Thanks!
<taniwha> note that the mass is calculated from the volume (*7.8)
<taniwha> and cost calculated from there, etc
<github> RP-0/Developmental b0eb0d6 NathanKell: Tooling: Fix going to a conic tank and back again. User experienced this as 'fillet not working'
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7r25
<taniwha> so pretty bogus, really
<Bornholio> solid iron
<taniwha> Bornholio: yes
<taniwha> 200kg is probably a tad much :)
<Pap> taniwha: Got it! We have very specific formulas of calculating Solar Panels mass and EC, so it shouldn't matter too much for us
<Pap> I should ask, was this created at full size?
<taniwha> oh, and EC was just copied from gigantor (because I copied its config)
<taniwha> yes, full size
<Pap> Would you know the Surface Area in m^2? If not, I will find it
<taniwha> Pap: I suggest grabbing blender (and optionally my mu addon if you want to reexport it) and taking a look
<Pap> That is what I will do
<taniwha> that's something want to do actually: add a surface area calculator
<taniwha> Pap: oh, and the actual panels is a separate mesh (with 0 volume)
<taniwha> Pap: just clone that
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<github> RP-0/Developmental 01d98e5 NathanKell: Halve tooling costs
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7r2A
<taniwha> Pap: according to blender, 1.6632m^2
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7r2p
<github> RP-0/Developmental d283755 NathanKell: Revert "Halve tooling costs"...
<taniwha> however, there's a small amount of unexposed panel
<Pap> Thanks a lot taniwha!
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7r2h
<github> RP-0/Developmental 2d88d33 NathanKell: Halve tooling costs the other way.
<taniwha> Pap: you /will/ need to edit the MODEL node (path)
<NathanKell> Pap: When do you think the break-even point should be? For tooling
<NathanKell> leudaimon too
<NathanKell> Right now it's at 4 parts.
<NathanKell> If you build something >4 times, you shoulda tooled
<leudaimon> NathanKell, I don't know yet how price works at all
<Pap> NathanKell: 4 or 5 seems reasonable to me. It is VERY low for looking at things historically, but probably the right balance for gameplay
<leudaimon> 4 looks good... for big stuff I would put a higher penalty in not tooling though
<NathanKell> Yeah, general machine shops should be able to build small stuff fairly easily
<NathanKell> But then, remember this is a manufacturing-lite mod
<NathanKell> so the tooling cost represents stage design in some ways too
<leudaimon> like, it shouldn't be possible to build an untooled 10m diameter tank
<taniwha> Your average lathe can probably do 20cm diameter with no problems
<taniwha> maybe up to 30
<Pap> NathanKell: Have a quick second to talk about Entry Cost mods?
<NathanKell> Well, that's one thing we can do, set a min diameter and min length
<NathanKell> sure thing
<Pap> OK, so going from XASR to AJ-27 works great
<leudaimon> considering our "start" tech is 30cm I think it could start tooled
<Pap> But to unlock the actual AJ10 Series (Early), I have to pay full price
<Pap> Actually that is probably wrong
<leudaimon> I mean, the starting sounding rocket core etc. are 30cm...
<Pap> AJ10-37 = 8000, AJ10-27: That means I have to pay 8000 no matter what, and then an additional 2000 if I didn't unlock the AJ10-27, correct?
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7raL
<github> RP-0/Developmental 9bf0acd NathanKell: Support a min diameter
<NathanKell> Pap: No, an additional (cost of AJ10-27, which is whatever the AJ10-27 costs on top of what the XASR-1 costs)
<NathanKell> Ah, hmm
<NathanKell> hold on
<Pap> Ah, ok, let me restart tis career and see what it cost if I didn't unlock the XASR and AJ10-27, that will give us the answer
<NathanKell> Pap: Go out of the VAB after you buy the AJ10-27 and then go back in
<NathanKell> the price of the AJ10-37 should update
<NathanKell> That's what I realized was wrong
<NathanKell> I wasn't updating part prices on config purchase
<taniwha> you guys don't mind if I use my panel for my own stuff, do you? :)
<NathanKell> but they'll update when you next switch scene
<NathanKell> taniwha: Course not! It's yours! :)
<Pap> You should absolutely use your panel
<Pap> You made it!
<leudaimon> lol
<taniwha> probably give it a different part name in case someone has said mod and RO
<Pap> I will rename it on our end
<taniwha> thought so, but it felt right asking
<Pap> I'll add a simple RO tag to it like we do with a lot of things
<Pap> This will now be named RO-rangerSolarPanel
<taniwha> *nod*
<taniwha> have you checked the animation? if you don't like the bounce, I'll tweak it
<NathanKell> That should be fixed
<taniwha> anyway, the only really frustrating bit was creating the spec map and getting it into the diffuse texture
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7ra4
<github> RP-0/Developmental 93267c7 NathanKell: Remove module test subject
<taniwha> (not super reproducible: I did some tweaking in gimp and didn't keep the tweakable results)
<NathanKell> blowfish, taniwha, do I recall you mentioning something about default resources?
<taniwha> yeah, seems I broke the autofill
<Pap> NathanKell: ECM's work perfectly!
<NathanKell> Pap HURRAH
<Pap> If I upgrade to the XASR and the AJ10-27, I spend 3000. Then when I upgrade to the AJ10-37, I spend 8000. If I skip the upgrades and just buy the AJ10-37 it is 11,000. Great job sir!
<NathanKell> That had 0 testing, other than finding and fixing a stack overflow-causing issue with ripping it out of RP-0 and putting it in RF
<NathanKell> WOOT
<NathanKell> taniwha: As of when?
<NathanKell> I thought it was on 1.3, and I'm on the 1.2.2 branch...
<NathanKell> But the symptom borntosleep is describing of solid tanks not being full would be from that I guess?
<taniwha> hmm, may be a 1.3 thing
<taniwha> I haven't dug into it yet
<taniwha> oh, I still haven't fixed the normals
<NathanKell> blowfish you around?
<ferram4> So, funny thing.
<NathanKell> ya?
<ferram4> Changing the mixture in an engine doesn't change its thrust appreciably at the same chamber pressure and dimensions.
<NathanKell> huh
<NathanKell> then how does it alter efficiency?
<NathanKell> Isp is just thrust from flow...
<leudaimon> I never quite understood how a given F/O combination can have different mixtures... shouldn't there be an ideal one for perfect burn?
<ferram4> Oh, Isp changes.
<ferram4> So does mass flow
<taniwha> leudaimon: you don't want a perfect burn because the oxides are very heavy
<leudaimon> oh
<taniwha> leudaimon: a rich mixture /is/ cooler, but the partials are lighter. eg, kerolox gives a mix of CO2, CO, H2O and H2
<ferram4> And HO, and the odd H flying around.
<taniwha> making the mixture rich increases CO and H2 while reducing CO2 and H2O
<leudaimon> I see
<ferram4> Also some COOH because why not.
<leudaimon> no C alone?
<taniwha> perfect burn would be CO2 and H2O: very heavy
<ferram4> Not unless it's stupidly fuel-rich.
<taniwha> sooty flame would clog up your nozzle
<ferram4> And in that case, it tends to bond into lighter hydrocarbons or the chains don't completely break in the first place.
<leudaimon> wow, you know your stuff
<taniwha> leudaimon: similar for hydrolox, but without the carbon of course
<taniwha> the more lighter molecules you can generate, the higher the velocity, but because it's not a perfect burn, you get lower temperatures and thus lower velocity
<taniwha> a bit of a balancing act
<leudaimon> yeah, I got it... didn't know that
<leudaimon> I thought the chief factor was temperature
<taniwha> temperature is energy, and E=1/2mv^2, so v*sqrt(2Em)
<taniwha> er, v=
<taniwha> or v ~ sqrt(T * m)
<leudaimon> yeah, this last formula is just what you said above ;)
<taniwha> er...
<taniwha> E/m and T/m
<taniwha> sorry
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<taniwha> typing algebra is hard :P
<NathanKell> https://www.dropbox.com/s/cr143a50bno80lu/RealFuels.dll?dl=1 now with debug logging when a circular reference is hit.
<taniwha> Pap: I've updated the zip again. fixed the normals and the parts are now modeled as being hollow (affects only the mass, but you set that anyway)
<Pap> Any change to the CFG?
<taniwha> just mass, costs, and EC
<Pap> k, thanks
<NathanKell> Pap: Also I never added the new tanks to the spreadsheet, sorry
<taniwha> but the .mu will look a little nicer
<Pap> I noticed that NathanKell that will be an easy add
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<NathanKell> thanks. I added the new rows but didn't have time, wanted to get the plugin done before familytime
<taniwha> Pap: weird shadow on left end of the axle should be gone: http://taniwha.org/~bill/screenshot4186.png
<taniwha> and the frame look squarer
<Pap> Yeah NathanKell leave the low hanging fruit to me. You handle the bigger stuff that I cannot help with
<NathanKell> Hey you're well on your way to being able to :)
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<github> [RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7rVI
<github> RealismOverhaul/dev 3047843 NathanKell: Rename M55 to follow usual RO part practice
<NathanKell> !seen blowfish
<Qboid> NathanKell: I last saw blowfish on [05.08.2017 06:55:04] in #RO saying: "for KSP it's in t/l I think"
<blowfish> hi
<NathanKell> \o/
<NathanKell> have you looked into what commit(s) changed autofill tanks? Cuz I'm getting that on the 1.2.2-final branch now
<Pap> I last saw blowfist on [06.08.2017 00:08:05]
<NathanKell> ^_^
<blowfish> I checked on 181f327 and it was not an issue
<blowfish> let me see what commit that would be on the branch
<blowfish> should be good on 0a587be
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rVG
<github> RP-0/Developmental 217a7df NathanKell: Remove some dross from ECM, fix a typo
<NathanKell> Ok, reverting the one after that that changes tank loading
<NathanKell> 36fce73
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<NathanKell> Fingers crossed
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<NathanKell> Pap: Still a bit of weirdness in the tree. The stock RL10 is getting ModuleTagInstruments
<NathanKell> and liquidEngine2-2 is getting tagged Habitable and Humanrated (I think you tagged all the LM parts, including the LMAE/LMDE :P )
<NathanKell> Ah the X-248 has instruments too
<NathanKell> Uh oh...
<Pap> Nope, the formulas are borked again
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<Pap> Google Sheets is going to be the end of me
<NathanKell> ah :\
<NathanKell> blowfish: Reverting that commit didn't fix it :\
<blowfish> oh, you're reverting a specific commit?
<blowfish> you want to revert 36fc373
<blowfish> that's the commit that caused it
<blowfish> the previous commit (which I gave) is the one that's fine
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<taniwha> blowfish: there is no 36fc373
<blowfish> sorry, 36fce73
<taniwha> reverting that is /not/ the correct fix
<taniwha> because it will break other things (wish I remembered what, now)
<NathanKell> Well, I reverted it locally and solids are still empty
<taniwha> really, reverting things that fix bugs is not a way to fix other bugs
<NathanKell> I agree
<NathanKell> But for testing, I need solids to work right now
<NathanKell> And they obviously did in RF 12.2.1.
<NathanKell> Oh wait, that was with loaded craft. I'm not sure if they did then fresh
<taniwha> this is weird. I can't find 36fce73, yet "git show" shows it
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rVi
<github> RP-0/Developmental 53eb8f4 Pap: Fix Formula Issue in Google Sheets...
<taniwha> ooh... 1.2
<blowfish> yeah
<Pap> OK, and with that, I am off to bed. See you all in 6 hours :)
<Pap> o/
<NathanKell> Pap: Tomorrow, want to work on doing ECMs for the RD-107/8?
<NathanKell> ah crap
<NathanKell> bedpap
<Pap> Nah, still here
<NathanKell> Ok. Basically we need a similar set of year-by-year ECM tags like for the Navaho-Turbopump, only on the R7-Engines lines
<NathanKell> so there's already R7-Engines, then we need R7-Engines-1957, 1958, etc
<NathanKell> And they should be about 20k/year, same as US
<NathanKell> Then each level of RD-107/8 config can be linked in to the right year's R7-Engines tag
<Pap> OK, I can handle that
<NathanKell> \o/
<NathanKell> With that done, and bugfixes to RF and the tooling (I need to add tooling to SSTU and PF) we can play the first decade again!
<taniwha> why didn't I saw what actual bug it fixed? :(
<taniwha> oh, right. I think I remember. stock tanks were getting no resources
<NathanKell> Ok rolling back to 486d038 fixed things
<Pap> Good night for realz this time o/
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<taniwha> checking what reverting it does here
* xShadowx scratches head
<xShadowx> 'tooling'?
<taniwha> yes, confirmed: 36fce73 (1.2 branch) fixes MFT deleting resources specified via RESOURCE nodes
<taniwha> with that (0c312b8 on master) reverted, /every/ tank has had all resources stripped
<NathanKell> Which was always the *desired* behavior.
<NathanKell> Well, it shouldn't (and didn't) kill RESOURCEs that weren't possible in a tank
<NathanKell> But it did (and IMO **should**) kill resources for which there is a TANK.
<NathanKell> That's why you specify the TANK in the part cfg.
<taniwha> uh, no it's not desired for non-RO
<NathanKell> It may not be now.
<NathanKell> It was when written.
<NathanKell> It explicitly was when written.
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<NathanKell> Because, remember:
<NathanKell> You are now saying anything in a ModuleFuelTanks gets *overridden* by anything in a RESOURCE
<NathanKell> rather than the other way around.
<NathanKell> That's extremely dangerous.
<taniwha> then there's a much more serious problem elsewhere
<NathanKell> Which is?
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<taniwha> because the TANK /does/ have LF and O specified appropriately, but all tanks are stripped
<taniwha> (Default tank definition)
<NathanKell> Then yes, *that* is the problem I'm talking about, exactly what I'm encountering right now
<NathanKell> And that commit seemed to be causing it :P
<taniwha> that commit "fixes" it
<taniwha> er, the "Don't delete tanks during loading or part placement." commit
<NathanKell> RO has tanks for solid fuel. They are set to always be 'full' of the given solid resource.
<NathanKell> Before that commit, the game loaded the parts with the resource full.
<NathanKell> After that commit, they load empty (no tanks at all in the module)
<taniwha> this means that MFT is thoroughly broken because it is broken one way or another with or without that commit
<taniwha> (thus why I say reverting that commit is not the fix)
<NathanKell> Wait, so how are your autofill tanks not filling when ours are?
<NathanKell> (before that commit)
<taniwha> I do not know
<taniwha> I really want to go back to before Ialdaboath messed things up
<NathanKell> Hmm. One thing we might do is set a flag 'loadFromRESOURCE' where during OnLoad TANKs are filled according to the partresources on a part, and then the flag is set back to false.
<NathanKell> I didn't think he touched much but the GUI stuff...?
<taniwha> more hacks :/
<NathanKell> swamp made some big changes
<taniwha> or is it swamp to blame?
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<taniwha> still. I guess the flag will have to do until MSC is up and running
<NathanKell> Ok, something is *seriously* weird here.
<taniwha> tried to work on it a bit yesterday, but got a little sidetracked with that cfg handing stuff because I used it to create the MSC config nodes :)
<taniwha> however, I do now have parts with MSC configs on them
<NathanKell> Ah
<NathanKell> This is beyond weird. I revert branch to before that commit and all is good. I go to that commit and it breaks. I go to the head of the branch and revert the commit and...it's still broken. WUT.
<taniwha> NathanKell: anyway, I am now happy that you at least understand what that commit is for
<taniwha> and that there is a deeper problem
<NathanKell> I wonder if our configs differ in any way.
<taniwha> so long as things work nicely for both RO and stock, I don't care what fix gets in
<NathanKell> Because autofill has always worked, to my knowledge, until that change (36fce73)
<NathanKell> (setting something to =full in the TANK)
<NathanKell> indeed, same
<taniwha> do you guys have 796203 in your branch?
<taniwha> (as a different id, I'm sure)
<taniwha> Fix tank copying when cloning via symmetry
<NathanKell> yes
<NathanKell> Ah, so that might be it you think? Indeed I reset back to 12.2.1 before
<NathanKell> so now I'm before 36fce73 but after that commit you just mentioned
<NathanKell> (it's c06a6b9 here)
<taniwha> hmm
<NathanKell> However I don't see how that would affect the prefab
<NathanKell> it's showing resourceless in the part list
<NathanKell> Good thinking, that's somehow causing it.
<taniwha> ooooh, right
<NathanKell> Trying with both reverted for now (and alas poor symmetry)
<taniwha> it was something to do with the compiler switch
<NathanKell> How would that affect the *prefab* tho?
<NathanKell> Oh right
<NathanKell> We have them on the TankDefinitions right?
<NathanKell> (prefab FuelTanks)
<taniwha> CopyTank was messing up maxAmount
<NathanKell> yeah
<NathanKell> makes sense now
<NathanKell> So what was that (the reflection one) fixing?
<taniwha> I may have missed an important step in CopyTank
<taniwha> MemberwiseClone setting maxAmount via the property
<taniwha> and thus triggering the code
<NathanKell> Indeed yes
<NathanKell> Yes!
<NathanKell> Perfecto
<taniwha> all there in the comment :)
<NathanKell> Yeah
<taniwha> (which I am very grateful I wrote :P)
<NathanKell> hehe
<taniwha> btw, "git show" is /NICE/ :)
<taniwha> "git show 796203" gives log message and diff
<NathanKell> \o/
<taniwha> I think this is related to blowfish's (?) question "why do we have unsafe properties?"
<taniwha> (btw, I despise them:P)
<lamont> well i have a space-shuttle PEG written it mechjeb which converges to something at least
<NathanKell> Yep, reverting both fixed ("fixed") the autofill issue.
<lamont> i’ll have to wire it up to an actual rocket tomorrow to see what it actually converged to
<NathanKell> :)
<taniwha> NathanKell: please do take note of that commit message :)
<NathanKell> taniwha: Yep. But autofill not working is more dangerous on 1.2 :]
<NathanKell> You can always remove all tanks and refresh them
<NathanKell> you can't add uncreatable tanks
<lamont> yeah 660 mins to orbit, i doubt that’s correct with this rocket
<taniwha> NathanKell: rather than reverting, I think it would be better to find out what was missed
<NathanKell> I agree. I just don't want to commit to that tonight, since I need to get other stuff testable.
<NathanKell> And as I mentioned above, I couldn't test at all at this point.
<NathanKell> Once tooling is ready for general use (tomorrow one hopes) I can work on RF if you like
<taniwha> yeah. also, since that's in the RF-specific branch, I'm not too worried at this stage
<NathanKell> yeah
<taniwha> however, I did reproduce that bug before the compiler switch
<taniwha> NathanKell: anyway, I am happy. Effective communication has been established :)
<NathanKell> :)
<NathanKell> Yep, happy here too :)
<taniwha> for now, I'll focus on MSC
<taniwha> (rather than worry about MFT since it seems to work well enough for stock)
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<NathanKell> ok
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rwQ
<github> RP-0/Developmental 170a284 NathanKell: Add two more module tags. @pap1723 can you add them to the new tanks in the sheet? (Not to any old parts, for now)
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rw7
<github> RP-0/Developmental e18bc58 NathanKell: Add tooling to the other proc parts. and KILL THE PROC SRB MWAHAHAH.
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rw5
<github> RP-0/Developmental e840002 NathanKell: Add a new tooling module to prep for supporting proc bases/interstage bases/thrust plates.
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<taniwha> all it does so far is remove resources :P
<NathanKell> hehe
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<taniwha> I've added you as a collaborator
<NathanKell> :)
<NathanKell> thanks!
<taniwha> would you believe, the thing actually works?!?
<taniwha> (for prefabs)
<taniwha> wow
<taniwha> need to get cloning and loading/saving working properly
<taniwha> but the basics are there already
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rKb
<github> RP-0/Developmental ece9438 NathanKell: Increase starting funds
<github> RP-0/Developmental a77e674 NathanKell: Lower KCT upgrades to 30k.
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rKA
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rKj
<github> RP-0/Developmental 022a91d NathanKell: Support tooling for proc fairing parts. Tweak tank tooling mults. Fix bug where tooling final mult wasn't used. Slight refactor to save duplicate code.
<NathanKell> !tell Pap,leudaimon,Bornholio,Maxsimal welp, your easy days are over. All proc parts/fairings parts now have tooling costs. Mwahaha. This means we probably do need to move the non-airplane-y tanks out of the starting node or something so you can't game the system by just using 0-entrycost tanks. (For tanks that appear later, you'd have to pay their entry costs)
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> !tell Pap,leudaimon,Bornholio,Maxsimal the RF dll you need will always be here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cr143a50bno80lu/RealFuels.dll?dl=1
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<taniwha> interesting. C#'s R is not
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<taniwha> NathanKell: MSC seems to be alive
<NathanKell> Wooooot!
<NathanKell> Great work!
<taniwha> prefab/load/save seems to be working
<taniwha> now for the hard part. UI :(
<NathanKell> Heh
<NathanKell> Yeah.
<NathanKell> that.
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rPd
<github> RP-0/Developmental d5c07d2 NathanKell: Add support for avionics setting a craft to debris on stage, if only like-set avionics parts are providing command to that vessel.
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<github> [RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7rPA
<github> RealismOverhaul/dev e80d56b NathanKell: Lower mass of Early 1m avionics
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rXa
<github> RP-0/Developmental a3917f1 NathanKell: Set min and max utilization for tanks. It'd be better to compute that though.
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<Probus> You're a monster NathanKell|AWAY! A monster! Tooling costs. Bah!
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<Bornholio> NathanKell|AWAY did you have a working link to the .dll needed I'm seeing a 404 on the previous one
<Qboid> Bornholio: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 08:13:56]: "welp, your easy days are over. All proc parts/fairings parts now have tooling costs. Mwahaha. This means we probably do need to move the non-airplane-y tanks out of the starting node or something so you can't game the system by just using 0-entrycost tanks. (For tanks that appear later, you'd have to pay their entry costs)"
<Qboid> Bornholio: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 08:14:26]: " the RF dll you need will always be here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cr143a50bno80lu/RealFuels.dll?dl=1"
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<Pap> o/
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 08:13:56]: "welp, your easy days are over. All proc parts/fairings parts now have tooling costs. Mwahaha. This means we probably do need to move the non-airplane-y tanks out of the starting node or something so you can't game the system by just using 0-entrycost tanks. (For tanks that appear later, you'd have to pay their entry costs)"
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 08:14:26]: " the RF dll you need will always be here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cr143a50bno80lu/RealFuels.dll?dl=1"
<Hypergolic_Skunk> \o
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap: I finally put enough comsats into orbit, so now I was offered the Geostationary Constellation contract.. after that I hope to finally get the GPS contract :D
<Bornholio> ser pap did you get the dll before the link broke?
<soundnfury> NathanKell|AWAY: \o/
<Pap> Bornholio: I did not. Damn!
<Pap> Hypergolic_Skunk: you are a saint
<Pap> Going to launch 6 at a time?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> no, I'll launch individually D:
<Pap> Better write a kOS script!
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I can't deal with the framerate drop
<Pap> Or I guess with peg, it doesn't matter anymore
<Hypergolic_Skunk> PEG <3
<Pap> Pegas is in the works as well!
<Hypergolic_Skunk> is it rated PEGi-16?
<Pap> No one understands your weird European rating system :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> that's US-American :P
<Bornholio> its pegi-17 now
<Hypergolic_Skunk> oh!
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I thought it was a US thing...
<Bornholio> rated R, PG, G, PG-13 and X :P thats US
<Hypergolic_Skunk> that's where i got the idea from, I guess
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<leudaimon> o/
<Qboid> leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 08:13:56]: "welp, your easy days are over. All proc parts/fairings parts now have tooling costs. Mwahaha. This means we probably do need to move the non-airplane-y tanks out of the starting node or something so you can't game the system by just using 0-entrycost tanks. (For tanks that appear later, you'd have to pay their entry costs)"
<Qboid> leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 08:14:26]: " the RF dll you need will always be here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cr143a50bno80lu/RealFuels.dll?dl=1"
<leudaimon> cool, NK had a busy night apparently
<dxdy> he might as well have set is as the channel topic instead of leaving that message for half a dozen people^^
<Pap> leudaimon: Yeah, but the download link broke :(
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<Bornholio> I want mechjeb to have a Stop fucking rolling button. why you roll for no reason MJ why?
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rNZ
<github> RP-0/Developmental 588aacd Pap: Added RD-107/108 Turbopumps
<Pap> !tell NathanKell* I added the RD-107/108 Turbopumps to the ECM file as well as to the spreadsheet for the variants. I did not export the file since I am not positive what the correct process is for that now
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<leudaimon> what is this ECM thing Pap|AFK?
<leudaimon> nvm, figured it out
<Bornholio> pap we found zero scienc cost nodes worked right?
<Pap|AFK> Bornholio they work, but they and all the parts inside of it are unlocked from the start
<leudaimon> why would 0-cost nodes be desirable?
<Bornholio> put parts that don't require science, but need unlock cost
<leudaimon> oh, I see
<soundnfury> make it a 0.1 science node and have the game start with 0.1 science instead of 0?
<leudaimon> how is it that sometimes parts in the start node are locked?
<Bornholio> if you load a mod afterward
<leudaimon> lol, I thought about something similar soundnfury
<leudaimon> and is there no way to force that behaviour for some parts Bornholio?
<Bornholio> not sure
<leudaimon> 0.1 will still some take some time to research, non-negligible with the starting R&D rate
<Bornholio> i guess a start contract could provide the first fraction of a point to start
<Pap|AFK> NO!!!! Bornholio you just figured it out!
<Bornholio> still has KCT stall time
<Pap|AFK> Have the First Flight Contract give the player the Technology. It should be instant in that situation
<Bornholio> unless we can sett very small fractions
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<Bornholio> you can give tech with contract?
<Pap|AFK> Yes
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<Pap> !tell NathanKell* So Bornholio led me to figure out what we can do to remove the majority of parts out of the start node. We can have a 2nd Start Node that costs 1 science. Upon completion of the First Flight Contract, or even on accepting the First Flight contract, we can unlock the tech for free. We just have to test to make sure the parts still need to be purchased
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<leudaimon> cool solution... I see no reason for CC to purchase the parts
<Pap> OK, so it cannot be on the acceptance of the contact, but only upon completion. So there are a couple of options...Create a new contract that is called Unlock Parts. Give it a parameter that is easy to complete, like wait 2 seconds. Then when it completes, it unlocks the node. The other option would be to have enough parts to complete First Flight contract unlocked from the start
<Bornholio> Just make it appear at that same time as first launch, call it something like "Qualify off the shelf parts"
<Bornholio> It will be nice to have almost all parts from first node not purchased, then i won't have to see all those aero parts i never use
<Pap> Yep
<leudaimon> thought the same Bornholio
<leudaimon> btw, what was the mod that allowed you to remove most non-proc tanks and fairings?
<Pap> Janitor's Closet
<Pap> Well, you have to do it manually
<Pap> Otherwise there is an auto-pruner, but I don't remember what it was called
<leudaimon> hum, there was one which runned a script and removed from the game
<leudaimon> yeah, auto-pruner or something
<Pap> Go figure, it is called AutoPruner: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/91365-script-autopruner-v11-prune-those-parts-that-suck-up-your-ram-2015018/
<leudaimon> I'll look for it, I'm thinking of taking FASA, but then I'll remove all tanks and other unnecessary stuff
<leudaimon> well, got to go... o/
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<Pap> Ranger Moc-Up using taniwha's new solar panels https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/izpS1E4L/RangerClosed.png
<Pap> s/Moc/Mock
<Qboid> Pap meant to say: Ranger Mock-Up using taniwha's new solar panels https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/izpS1E4L/RangerClosed.png
<Hypergolic_Skunk> very early tech panels?
<Bornholio> will abuse those
<Pap> !tell taniwha: they are looking really nice! We are going to have to shrink them down on our side because our probe cores are not the right side, but they look great!
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap> Hypergolic_Skunk: 1961 Power Node (when they are implemented)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> make them procedural :> :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap: ok!
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<schnobs> Folding panels has been the sole reason why I kept installing Infernal Robotics. Until now.
<schnobs> In a nutshell: wow.
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<Bornholio> looks like i found new loading ramps
<Hypergolic_Skunk> taniwha's folding panels are also a great improvement in terms of part count
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<xShadowx> lol? during cold war, CIA made dummy companies to buy titanium from soviets, to build the A-12, to spy on the soviets? clap clap :)
<Pap|AFK> Yes they are!
<Bornholio> The russians used CIA film to record the far side of the moon
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<taniwha> Pap|AFK: glad you like them
<taniwha> (fighting with an oddity of my network is why I'm still up)
* xShadowx cant wait for them :)
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<taniwha> :)
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<Bornholio> .
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<Bornholio> added two science instruments (impact/geiger) to a completed heavy sounding rocket. saves edits sets it to 0% build it all again
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<NathanKell> o/
<Qboid> NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 14:53:01]: "I added the RD-107/108 Turbopumps to the ECM file as well as to the spreadsheet for the variants. I did not export the file since I am not positive what the correct process is for that now"
<Qboid> NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 15:38:43]: "So Bornholio led me to figure out what we can do to remove the majority of parts out of the start node. We can have a 2nd Start Node that costs 1 science. Upon completion of the First Flight Contract, or even on accepting the First Flight contract, we can unlock the tech for free. We just have to test to make sure the parts still need t
<Qboid> o be purchased"
<NathanKell> no idea why dropbox screwed up
<NathanKell> and get the RF dll
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> Bornholio ^
<Bornholio> afternoon!
<NathanKell> yo
<NathanKell> just got up, gonna nomz, but wanted to get a good link out asap
<Bornholio> yeah sepatrons with actual fuel!
<soundnfury> o/ NathanKell
<NathanKell> o/ soundnfury
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<Rokker> Bornholio: i think you underestimate the size of sounding rockets
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<Bornholio> no i do not
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<Rokker> Bornholio: you gotta do avionics tests and shit too
<Bornholio> and those rarely take longer than a day or two for very large rockets even
<dxdy> the question here isn't the testing already factored into the kct build time?
<Rokker> dxdy: not on pad testing?
<dxdy> is there actually five days of on pad testing for larger sounding rockets?
<dxdy> that seems relatively large
<Rokker> ...
<Bornholio> its risky to have a rocket on the pad for 5 days in florida
<Rokker> im saying that probably factors into the roll out time
<Bornholio> rollout time for STS...
<NathanKell> Bornholio: That's true now tho. How long did preparing a Bumper launch take?
<NathanKell> I'm perfectly willing to believe our times are too long. But the issue is if we shorten them here, they shorten for later stuff too somewhat, ya?
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<schnobs> Well, erm... if I'm still allowed to chime in, I always wished one could launch simple sounding rockets in rapid succession.
<schnobs> Like, daily or three per week.
<schnobs> Also, the time when I most needed a production pipeline and several pads was early on, when failure rates were still high.
<lamont> what is the rule about when you need to xyz a vector and when you dont? and specifically i’m wondering about vessel.mainBody.position, vessel.CoMD and vessel.obt_velocity and if they need it or not?
<NathanKell> of course you're allowed to chime in!
<NathanKell> lamont: swizzling you mean?
<dxdy> actually with that in mind, pipelining would be cool as a feature
<dxdy> I mean there is reason that if I build two of the same rocket they should take twice as long
<dxdy> if anything, they should be relatively close together in terms of finishing
<NathanKell> lamont: I think none of them require swizzling
<lamont> yeah i meant “xzy” i have a hard time typing that out of order without my fingers fixing it to be alphabetical…
<dxdy> * is no reason
<lamont> okay, so it is just the stuff hanging directly off of Orbit that needs swizzling?
<lamont> (i.e. it looks like orbit.h needs a swizzle)
<NathanKell> Yes, just the actual orbit stuff
<NathanKell> everything in worldspace does not
<NathanKell> orbitspace (i.e. within the orbit class) does
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<lamont> ooo, exciting, i have a PEG algorithm that converges to sensible pitch, direction and delta-T now
<lamont> (and i mean N-stage, space shuttle PEG with yaw steering, extracted out into a standalone MJ ComputerModule)
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<dxdy> awesome, lamont!
<Hypergolic_Skunk> sounds great! but what is yaw-steering for? doglegs?
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<lamont> yeah should dogleg for you i think, IDK, i’ll find out in a bit after i get it wired up and try to match planes to the moon
<Hypergolic_Skunk> :)
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<lamont> heh, welp it just went kinda insane
<lamont> its taking me somewhere, but it ain’t 185x185
<Bornholio> "SpaceX Falcon 9 explodes on launch pad destroying Facebook"... title of a link, I wish was true
<lamont> OMG ROTFLMAO
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<Maxsimal> o/
<Qboid> Maxsimal: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 08:13:56]: "welp, your easy days are over. All proc parts/fairings parts now have tooling costs. Mwahaha. This means we probably do need to move the non-airplane-y tanks out of the starting node or something so you can't game the system by just using 0-entrycost tanks. (For tanks that appear later, you'd have to pay their entry costs)"
<Qboid> Maxsimal: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 08:14:26]: " the RF dll you need will always be here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cr143a50bno80lu/RealFuels.dll?dl=1"
<Qboid> Maxsimal: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 19:15:28]: "https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oify23mazfma7h7/AACDhQF1JoxG8hxKlhA_Px7Za?dl=0"
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<Maxsimal> Wonder how this ends my easy days?
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<NathanKell> o/
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<Maxsimal> Hey NK. I've been away while you've been doing a lot of the tooling stuff - basically now you have to pick sizes with entry costs for a particular proc tank width?
<soundnfury> \o NK
<ferram4> Heh, wow. The LMDE has at least a 67% pressure drop at the injector, even at full throttle.
<Rokker> ferram4: wanna see what happense when someone without any idea how aerodynamics works designs a launch vehicle?
<ferram4> Sure, let's see something terrible.
<Rokker> max q would be fun in that thing
<Hypergolic_Skunk> if you even reach maxq ^
<Hypergolic_Skunk> maybe it's instant maxq
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: the max speed is 10 m/s
<Pena> soo it goes 10 km up @10m/s and then launches something from that altitude that can actually do some speed? :)
<ferram4> What.
<Bornholio> plastered a thread with my testing and a crappy imgur album http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/164144-rorp-0-development-branch-testing/
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: it makes me think of, as electrokitty pointed out in spacex, the one BFR proposal that was literally a buncha falcon 9s stuck together
<Rokker> this cancer
<Hypergolic_Skunk> do these people actually care about part count and how the universe would slow down to a drawl?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> eh, crawl
<dxdy> you started the career in hard mode, bornholio?
<dxdy> that seems brutal ^^
<Bornholio> there is other modes?
<ferram4> All I can think is, "you need larger engines with more chamber pressure"
<dxdy> in that case, do you have some tips?
<dxdy> I took a peek of the master a couple of days ago to try a career with the new tech tree and some of the parts that were costed back then
<dxdy> but I got completely and utterly stuck
<Rokker> ferram4: nah, just use 132 of them
<Bornholio> turn on save reload. KSP is not realiable enough. make sure you always have enough cash to crash three rockets in a row
<dxdy> ran out of funds pretty much at the point where I couldn't get much further with unmanned, but at the same time didn't have anything to successfully do manned
<Bornholio> you only need x-1 cockpit to do the manned SO rockets
<Maxsimal> You're supposed to play master with 300 to 500% money now
<Bornholio> that also
<dxdy> whut :D
<dxdy> argh
<dxdy> that could explain my trouble
<dxdy> I played with standard 100% funds
<Bornholio> no not master, development
<Hypergolic_Skunk> no way to automate the 300%-500% thing (for new players, and forgetful players like me) ?
<dxdy> well in that case I feel better about it
<Bornholio> skunk it is automatic in master
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah
<Hypergolic_Skunk> also, one lesson I learned: don't enable 'hidy empty tech nodes' :P
<Pap|AFK> Hypergolic_Skunk: it will be automated. We are testing to see what those values should be. Then will code them in.
<Qboid> Pap|AFK: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [06.08.2017 19:15:28]: "https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oify23mazfma7h7/AACDhQF1JoxG8hxKlhA_Px7Za?dl=0"
<Bornholio> lol
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap|AFK: shweet
<Pap|AFK> NathanKell: did you see the RD 107/108 stuff?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> has anyone here done any ion-drive stuff in RO/RSS?
<Bornholio> yes, not worth it, the pain is real
<Hypergolic_Skunk> i take it you need a mod to have constant thrust even when not having the ion-probe as active-vessel?
<Bornholio> yeah becuase the thrust requires monthlong burn times
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I am using RSS Expanded, and getting into orbit around, say, Vesta or Ceres, takes insane amounts of delta-v - or time.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> and iirc IRL they did it with ion drives
<Bornholio> you can use Ion RCS to be cheaty and still use ion in a sane way. but its still massive hourlong burns
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I'd rather not cheat. I'll try and find mods that help :)
<Bornholio> its not unreasonable to change the ion to a larger thrust value and drop ISP by 20-30% to represent the gravity losses you should have suffered
<NathanKell> Sorry, *actually* back
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<NathanKell> dxdy: Master is fine as is. If you want to play with launch costs, you need the dev branch of both RO and RP-0, then you need the RF dll I linked, and *then* you increase Fund Gain 5x.
<NathanKell> Master should have 1x fund gain
<NathanKell> Maxsimal: Yes, basically it's unlock costs for proc parts
<NathanKell> borntoeat: How are buildings costing 15x what they used to?
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<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Makes sense. Don't think that will make my life that bad. I'll just use fixed-size rocket tanks since decouplers are still very cheatable ;)
<NathanKell> they should only be ~5x what they used to.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> will procedural avionics be worked over? because at the moment Second Stage and Probe configs are rather borked. all my current launch vehicles use actual IRL avionics parts
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Drop-tanks, I mean
<Hypergolic_Skunk> (so much work o.o)
<NathanKell> Yes, proc avionics will get touched
<Hypergolic_Skunk> \o/
<NathanKell> Maxsimal: Yeah, we need some kind of complexity mult for rollout costs
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: Yeah, was more hoping to direct you to that decoupler issue I wrote up :)
<NathanKell> Yes, I saw it on the phone. Gonna read it again
<Hypergolic_Skunk> btw NathanKell, i removed Kerbal Konstructs/Real KSC... it started bugging out more and more, making launches impossible.
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<NathanKell> :\
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oZk
<github> RP-0/Developmental d2de0f2 NathanKell: Tooling for proc decouplers. Also costing. Apparently we never even costed it (!)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> oh well, it's mostly cosmetic, eh. will wait for possible updates/bugfixes.
<awang> Hypergolic_Skunk: A time warp mod may also work for long burns
<Hypergolic_Skunk> awang: the one for 1.1.3?
<awang> Depending on whether in-game time is expensive
<Hypergolic_Skunk> thinking about trying that, once I reach ion-tech
<awang> http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/154935-130-bettertimewarpcontinued-customizable-time-warp-and-lossless-physics-warp/
<NathanKell> principiaaaaaa
<NathanKell> Maxsimal: I'm getting throws in my log regarding sounding rocket KM. Did that get fixed?
<awang> Wait
<awang> Hypergolic_Skunk: Are you on 1.2.2?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> yep!
<awang> Oops
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: I believe I fixed the issue Pap was having - this might be the same or different, he didn't mention issues in his log, just that it was screwed up before he did Karman line.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> no worries, awang :)
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> but I won't touch 1.1.3 if I had gloves on. those crashes-to-desktop cost me entire days of IRL life-time :p
<awang> Actually, never mind
<awang> There's a 1.2.2 version on SpaceDock
<Hypergolic_Skunk> are you using BetterTimeWarp?
<awang> I have it installed, but I haven't gotten around to actually using it
<awang> Playing stock since my brother doesn't want to play RO :/
<awang> So haven't really required any long burn times
<awang> Yet
<Hypergolic_Skunk> he'll come around
<Hypergolic_Skunk> time is on your side }:>
<awang> That's what I'm hoping
<ferram4> NathanKell, get more hype: http://i.imgur.com/MScEjd7.png
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<NathanKell> OF HAPPENINGS
<NathanKell> ferram4: Swanks indeed
* xShadowx refills ferram4's cookie supply
<ferram4> Incidentally, things I'm discovering from this:
<ferram4> We seem to run our kerolox engines far too rich in general unless there's a thermal component in the combustion chamber I'm missing so far.
<ferram4> And low pressure hydrolox likes to run REALLY REALLY rich
<ferram4> Like, sub 4.5 O/F rich, and I don't even allow that kind of setting.
<SpecimenSpiff> ooh thats nice ferram4
<SpecimenSpiff> one thing I would request if you're going to have that many things to adjust, a drop-down with the real engines, so you can just say "give me lr79 as a starting point"
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<NathanKell> ferram4: for kerolox, we do our gas generators fuel-rich so I thought that was why
<NathanKell> i.e. the GGs use "extra" kero vs lox, so the MR going into the engine is higher
<NathanKell> I think
<ferram4> No, that doesn't seem to account for enough.
<NathanKell> huh
<ferram4> Unless I'm assuming too high a temp in the gas gen right now.
<Rokker> NathanKell: u know what sucks
<NathanKell> the USAF?
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* NathanKell runs
<lamont> oops, i forgot to revert and left my test rocket in orbit…
<Rokker> I didn't learn my great uncle worked with the Talos until recently, years after his death
<NathanKell> Ah. That *does* suck :(
<Rokker> Talos missile that is
<NathanKell> yep
<ferram4> SpecimenSpiff, prefabs to load can happen later on, when everything actually works.
<Rokker> he used to have a Talos model in his house but it was before I was interested in this stuff
<SpecimenSpiff> ferram4, yes, its a request, not a required feature. but it would make it much more usable
<NathanKell> Ok! R&R, and retirement, are done. Now to actually display some info...
<SpecimenSpiff> ferram4 about 1/3rd done with the methalox config, hoping to finish tomorrow
<ferram4> Excellent.
<ferram4> Take your time, I have enough configs to work with stuff.
<SpecimenSpiff> when you get a chance I should have you look at some of the rich side data files, it never produced carbon as we discussed, but I do see some of the other nasty stuff such as graphite, we may want to swap to the rich database after all, I'm not sure
<Rokker> I never noticed the J58 and F-1 engines in alien isolation
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<soundnfury> ferram4: most hydrolox optimises naïvely at about 4 O/F.
<soundnfury> but when you account for the mass of tankage, you end up preferring 5 or 6
<ferram4> Ah. Okay, that makes sense.
<Maxsimal> ferram4: Do we run fuel rich because then some of the combustion products from kerolox end up as CO or H2, instead of CO2 or H2O? That'd increase ISP...
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<soundnfury> Maxsimal: yes, that's the reason for nearly _every_ engine running fuel rich
<soundnfury> excess fuel almost invariably goes to better products than excess oxer, for almost any combination
<ferram4> Maxsimal, not like that. I mean, too fuel rich in the chamber for optimal performance. Cutting in a little extra LOX bring sup the temp enough to balance it.
* NathanKell hates GUIs
* NathanKell expects Henry Spencer
* NathanKell is not disappoint.
<Maxsimal> ferram4: With the same chamber pressure?
<soundnfury> NathanKell: ^_^
<ferram4> Yes.
<soundnfury> ferram4: of course, sometimes lowering chamber temp is valuable in itself
<NathanKell> Jiiiiim y u do dis
<NathanKell> KSP UI is sooo complex
<soundnfury> and fuel-rich kerolox deposits soot on chamber-wall hot-spots, insulating them a little
<NathanKell> foreach (KSP.UI.UIListData<KSP.UI.UIListItem> u in astronautComplex.ScrollListAvailable)
<NathanKell> {
<NathanKell> KSP.UI.CrewListItem cli = u.listItem.GetComponent<KSP.UI.CrewListItem>();
<ferram4> Because SQUARD?
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<NathanKell> Naw man, I'm sure he's doing it here too :P
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<NathanKell> so...who wants to test crew going inactive after flights, and having retirement times?
<borntoeat> ?
<SpecimenSpiff> can it be tested without also having to test everything else?
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<NathanKell> It can I *think* be tested in regular KSP yes
<awang> Isn't there already a mod for that?
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<SpecimenSpiff> I was just about to start the manned portion of my career, so could test if that's possible, but I dont want to deal with tankage, etc
<NathanKell> I don't know of one that does retirement.
<NathanKell> SpecimenSpiff: Hmm. You'll lose entrycost modifiers
<NathanKell> hope that's ok
<Starwaster> nathankell, crew inactivity after flights? where do I sign up
<Bornholio> rokker Talos is my favorite missile
<NathanKell> awang: And the one that exists (Crew Queue?) does it the Wrong Way. Well, I mean, it works, but it's using old functionality. As of 1.2, you can harness stock functionality to do it
<NathanKell> Starwaster: the RP-0 train!
<Hypergolic_Skunk> (btw, NathanKell, I once again proved that I'm dumb because it seems I accidentally replaced the newest KerbalKonstructs version with an older one without noticing? never mind, go along, nothing to see here .. :p )
<Bornholio> nathan did you change building costs this morning/last night
<Starwaster> iwhat branch?
<Bornholio> i notice they are no longer x15 but what i expected at x5
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oCb
<github> RP-0/Developmental 692f75f NathanKell: Move avionics to its own folder. Add Crew retirement and rest.
<NathanKell> Bornholio: I didn't change building costs this morning or last night, no.
<NathanKell> Starwaster that one :)
<NathanKell> It's not configurable yet--all the values are hardcoded for now
<NathanKell> but it tries to detect what you did on a flight and set your rest period accordingly
<NathanKell> it also makes you retire later if you had an interesting flight, with diminishing returns.
<Bornholio> strangely confused then my mission control was 600k and tracking was 900k last night, did refresh and restart now its 200,300k
<ferram4> NathanKell, more interesting things, since I now support fuel-rich and ox-rich gas gens: at low pressures, a fuel-rich gas gen is more efficient than an ox-rich, and it switches at higher pressures (seems ~6-7 MPa).
<NathanKell> huh, interesting!
<ferram4> At least for kerolox
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<ferram4> For UDMH + NTO, it seems to prefer fuel-rich for quite a ways.
<Bornholio> so happy to stay away from thermochemisrty and be in the land of nice clean gas constants, stupid lantr
<ferram4> And I mean, it's a jump from 314s -> 318s in the things that I tested. So... pretty significant actually.
<SpecimenSpiff> I had never heard of hyrdonium before, but had to look up h3o+ when I saw it in the output...
<SpecimenSpiff> hydronium*
<SpecimenSpiff> man, at low pressure and very lean, methalox has a clean output. carbon monoxide, water, and oxygen, that's it
<SpecimenSpiff> actually carbon dioxide, not monoxide
<SpecimenSpiff> so its *evil*
<Bornholio> thats why natural gas is acceptable in house consumption, as long as the injectors are correct it burns without CO production in air
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oW8
<github> RP-0/Developmental 07abfba NathanKell: Catch starting crew
<Bornholio> NathanKell do you intend any payload resource in only a particular class of tank? Only SM tanks?
<Starwaster> NathanKell, still on 1.2.2?
<NathanKell> Bornholio: SM, plus Tank-I-HP (Pap did that last night)
<NathanKell> Starwaster: Yeah
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7oWN
<github> RP-0/Developmental 8b3f8ed NathanKell: Same thing, only without NREs.