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<Bornholio>
now florida is fooked, count out any rockets for the cape for a bit
<Bornholio>
wonder if OTV-5 is being cancelled right now or if the will risk a scrub and teardown just before huricane rolls in
<wb99999999>
so can I blame the weather on the fire?
<SpecimenSpiff>
last I heard they dont expect the cape to get hit until monday at earliest
<SpecimenSpiff>
so I suspect they'll try to launch
<wb99999999>
the piss sky and the heat?
<SpecimenSpiff>
Which Vancouver are you in?
<SpecimenSpiff>
though the answer is "yes" either way
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<Bornholio>
blame it on the G3 solar storm
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<Bornholio>
pretty cool looking at goes proton flux over the last day. up 3 order of magnitude for low power protons. Gotta suck for ISS crew having to hole up in the shelter modules.
<SpecimenSpiff>
not sure wheere I can see that wihtout the 20 minute load time
<SpecimenSpiff>
but I think I went for about 4 times what it suggested
<Bornholio>
hard or lower?
<SpecimenSpiff>
I think I went hard
<SpecimenSpiff>
ill fire it up and see
<Bornholio>
x4 would be 240%
<Bornholio>
just move it up to what you want to play. or just fast forward through some and give yourself the contracts that you would have done the grinding on
<SpecimenSpiff>
pretty sure im at 360%
<SpecimenSpiff>
ive done that a couple of times
<SpecimenSpiff>
since im playing with my range safety mod now, Im going to have to up it so I can afford to upgrade another space center
<awang>
I just find that it's hard to keep pace with real-life achievements without grinding my butt off
<awang>
Spend way too much time waiting for R&D
<Bornholio>
I find that the rollout costs are the killer, two many multipliers are starting to stack up. but yeah unless you timewarp, there is a lot of grinding sats
<SpecimenSpiff>
I only just put my first satellite in orbit last night
<awang>
I never expected rollouts to be so expensive
<SpecimenSpiff>
it was fun to do it with the tech I had, but the a-9 is unreliable, took me 3 launches to get one to work
<awang>
Like a few times the cost of the rocket itself seems to be a bit high
<awang>
I agree with SpecimenSpiff though, figuring out how to do things with limited tech is pretty fun
<SpecimenSpiff>
im amazed I was able to loft that satellite with that tech
<SpecimenSpiff>
but it didnt have the electrical charge for even a single orbit
<awang>
SpecimenSpiff: Interesting design!
<SpecimenSpiff>
having the satellite itself be the nose cone was critical to getting it to work
<SpecimenSpiff>
that got me almost 100m/sec
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<SpecimenSpiff>
basically I put an oddly shaped aerobee into orbit
<SpecimenSpiff>
and finally got my game loaded. yeah, I'm ruinning hard with 360% payout
<SpecimenSpiff>
Im going to bump that up a bit
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<awang>
Should I be trying to upgrade my launch pad as early as possible?
<Bornholio>
fire a lunar flyby for science as soonas possible you waht those upgrade points to roll in fast along with the cash so the cash goes into buildings and parts. build a new pad and upgrade that
<awang>
Also, what pad level should I be at for the first set of lunar contracts?
<awang>
Would trying to combine lunar impact + orbit be too ambitious?
<Bornholio>
build one pad for each pad level so you can use the cheapest possible pad for each launch
<awang>
Oh, are higher level pads more expensive?
<awang>
Didn't know that
<Bornholio>
you can do flyby quite a bit sooner tha orbit, but if you can do orbit , then impact is just a peice of space trash away
<awang>
Yeah, I was trying to do impact by attaching the lightest probe core to a Pioneer
<awang>
Or was it Vanguard?
<awang>
Don't remember
<Bornholio>
even a spent transit stage can do the job
<awang>
Guess I'll hold off on orbit, then. Trying to get everything right while staying under the pad limit was proving quite difficult
<awang>
Oh right
<awang>
Good point
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<awang>
I was planning on impacting the transit stage anyways, to avoid debris...
<awang>
Also, I wish there were better options to sort through times
<awang>
Er
<awang>
s/times/engines
<Qboid>
awang meant to say: Also, I wish there were better options to sort through engines
<Bornholio>
I usually do a sputnik+snub/antenna/battery and lob it at SOI so it goes just below surface PE just because its more fun that way
<awang>
Sort by TWR, SL/vac isp, thrust, etc.
<Bornholio>
do you have a tab extension?
<Bornholio>
ah yeah, just fuel
<awang>
Snub?
<awang>
Tab extension?
<Bornholio>
snubotron
<awang>
Oh, right
<Bornholio>
Editor Extensions Redux
<awang>
I do have that
<Bornholio>
ah no thats not ir Filter extensions i think
<awang>
It has a search function?
<awang>
I've only used EER for snap/symmetry
<awang>
I do have filter extensions, too
<awang>
Didn't think it had more flexible sorting functionality?
<Bornholio>
it has the sort engines by fuel type
<Bornholio>
and other category sorting too
<awang>
I remember the fuel type
<awang>
idk about TWR/etc
<Bornholio>
yeah but i think you can make your own categories not sure how much work that is , normmaly don't use it
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
That's an idea
<Bornholio>
personally Janitors closet and not having unpurchased things show up makes keeping the vab clean better for me
<awang>
I have Janitor's Closet, but haven't gotten around to actually using it
<awang>
Probably should at least prune out a lot of the wings and tanks...
<Bornholio>
makes the load time better too
<awang>
I prefer having unpurchased things show up because I want to know what I'm missing
<awang>
Yeah, load times are pretty bad
<Bornholio>
you can still see them if you do a search
<awang>
Also, does anyone here play with EVA parachutes?
<awang>
Yeah, but then you have to know what you're looking for
<Bornholio>
or go to the R&D to look for it
<awang>
Jumping back and forth is a pain :(
<Bornholio>
testing 1.3 stuff today makes me want RO/RP-0 to get there faster .sigh
<Bornholio>
even [x] science has more features
<awang>
What's holding RO back at this stage?
<SpecimenSpiff>
wait, bornholio, lower level pads are cheaper? I thought it was the opposite...
<Bornholio>
Test Flight is the biggest one at this point
<SpecimenSpiff>
testflight and one other mod, I think, awang
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
And no Agathorn...
<SpecimenSpiff>
what does test flight need?
<awang>
Does TF need major changes? Or just a recompile?
<awang>
Dangit, ninja'd
<Bornholio>
.summon Agathorn !
<Pap>
TF needs a complete re-write
<SpecimenSpiff>
well, I think it *must have* a bit more than a recompile, but it *needs* a complete rewrite for performance
<Pap>
Correct, it should work with just a recompile, no?
<Bornholio>
well it needs a compile minimally to get us to 1.3, maybe the rewrite can wait to 1.3.1
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<awang>
Oh dang
<awang>
That sounds pretty bad
<Pap>
awang: Same thing with RealScience (unfortunately as well)
<SpecimenSpiff>
pap, do you know if there is any reason tf couldnt just pre-calc failures at launch, and if the part is still on the rocket and thrusting at the precalced time, it fails?
<awang>
Pap: guess I know what I'm doing this weekend then
<awang>
How badly is TF affecting performance?
<SpecimenSpiff>
it evaluates every part every frame
<SpecimenSpiff>
so pretty badly
<Bornholio>
its crushing if you have more than 20 engines
<Pap>
SpecimenSpiff: to me that makes sense, but NathanKell was saying that the whoel system needs to be re-done. One of the problems is that each failure of TF is its own Part Module. That increases the amount of Part Modules by a TON
<SpecimenSpiff>
at least I think, I havent really dived that deep into the code
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
Uh
<awang>
But how frequently do you have 20 engines in RO?
<Bornholio>
1kn Thrusters for he win
<awang>
Most I've had simultaneously was 9 Aerobees a long long time ago
<awang>
Do 1kn thrusters even have TF configs?
<awang>
I'm pretty sure I've used the 1.7something kN thruster
<awang>
The one that doesn't need ullage
<awang>
And don't remember that having a TF failure time
<SpecimenSpiff>
I think the 1kn thruster either has no failure, or its like 12 minutes
<SpecimenSpiff>
but in theory TF can support failures for more than engines, and we'd like to do that, but not while its the way it is
<SpecimenSpiff>
does anyone want to beta test my range safety mod?
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<Bornholio>
yes, but not till i get done testing 1.3 stuff for RSS, do you have a1.3 compile?
<SpecimenSpiff>
no, I haven't bothered to make a 1.3 compile. I should put that on my list to do, should require nothing more than a compile
<awang>
Anyone here use Fusebox?
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<SpecimenSpiff>
I thought fusebox was dead
<SpecimenSpiff>
I used to use it
<Bornholio>
LGG booted it up
<Pap>
I have been told not to use Fusebox as it makes changes to parts
<Pap>
^^^ Is this true?
<Bornholio>
.looksatgit
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<Bornholio>
unless its plugin does, i don't see any MM stuff except fot three amp-year parts
<wb99999999>
Rokker my LR-87's orientation was wrong
<Rokker>
disgusting
<wb99999999>
ikr
<Rokker>
wb99999999: ah yeah, i didnt open up the pic, i just looked at the little preview
<Pap>
wb99999999: Could you make a simple MM config that is something like IF BDB has RealFuel config, then plumeLength *= 1.3
<Pap>
^^^^ Those are not correct values or module names, just an idea for you
<wb99999999>
hmmm
<wb99999999>
I'd like to do individual configs for RO
<Pap>
Oh, then that would be even better!!!
<wb99999999>
it will be annoying, but at least I can copy the configs and edit on it
<Pap>
For sure
<wb99999999>
should start reading the instruction for MM soon XD I'm not that involved in modding and editing configs
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<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [05.09.2017 16:33:16]: "It turns out there was a missing 0 and the Improved Film Camera was 10 times heavier than it was supposed to be. Thanks for catching it! That one is based on the Corona satellites"
<NathanKell>
Pap: Ah! That makes sense!
<NathanKell>
And to answer your old question Pap, Thor-Agena-D couldn't really loft more than Agena B (the D was not significantly improved, it was more that it was standardized). Boosted Thor, however, (Thorad) could launch rather more.
<wb99999999>
NathanKell It seems to me that a few small boosters go a long way for Thor
<wb99999999>
because the core is really rather weak
<NathanKell>
Not compared to Able :P
<NathanKell>
argh, nomz. o/
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<Pap>
Got it NathanKell. From my reading last night, the later 1963+ versions of the Corona were much heavier and were launched on TAT
<SpecimenSpiff>
There are two titan's on display at the evergreen museum near me, think its a 1 on the floor and a 2 in the silo, but nothing with the boosters
<Rokker>
SpecimenSpiff: yeah this is the only complete Titan IV on display
<wb99999999>
it looks very nice indeed
<Rokker>
SpecimenSpiff: the Titan IV core on the floor at evergreen doesnt have SRBs because they were used up during testing for... shuttle testing or something? i cant remember
<wb99999999>
Rokker do you know why it is preferred to make dual engine or dual chamber engines lay perpendicular?
<wb99999999>
I mean perpendicular to the boosters
<wb99999999>
if any
<Rokker>
wb99999999: my money is on heating
<Rokker>
wb99999999: they already had to cover the LR-87s on the Titan III/IV family in ablative paint i believe
<Rokker>
so heating was pretty bad
<SpecimenSpiff>
I would think that if there is any kind of stray impulse on staging, that would be the best orientation to deal with it
<Rokker>
wb99999999: also maybe the avoid the exhaust from the 87s hitting the SRM nozzles
<wb99999999>
Atlas V do this too I think
<blowfish>
I think Constellation ran into the same issue (except it never went anywhere)
<blowfish>
ablative nozzles don't do well with another heat source
<wb99999999>
oops
<wb99999999>
RD-0146 from RealEngine doesn't have thrust transformation and therefore doesn't have steering
<wb99999999>
Gimbal animation is there but no steering...
<wb99999999>
attempting a fix...
<blowfish>
wb99999999: you may have it already, but I find Sarbian's DebugStuff plugin very useful for debugging that sort of thing
<wb99999999>
I think I found the problem
<wb99999999>
the "thrust transformation" phrase in the config file is missing the "transformation" part
<wb99999999>
basically a typo
<Rokker>
blowfish: well it wasnt entirely ablative, they just added it to help
<blowfish>
was it any less ablative than any other "ablative" nozzle?
<wb99999999>
it does run its fuel through the nozzle right?
<blowfish>
the nozzle extension was not regeneratively cooled
<blowfish>
wb99999999: through the wall of the combustion chamber and upper nozzle
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<wb99999999>
are nozzle extensions actively cooled usually?
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<wb99999999_>
oops...
<Rokker>
extensions usually arent
<Rokker>
blowfish: yeah but the entire LR-87 was painted in an ablative paint afaict
<Rokker>
on the outside
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<blowfish>
huh
<blowfish>
maybe has something to do with the boosters
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<Maxsimal>
o/
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<Bornholio>
10^-3 W/m2 xray density, R3 radio blackout today
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<Pap>
o/
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<Maxsimal|Work>
How's it goin Pap?
<Pap>
Good Maxsimal|Work , how are you?
<Maxsimal|Work>
Oh, doing alright. Work has been annoying, lots of task shuffling and bad processes, but that's the usual I guess. Playing Persona 5 at home - enjoying it, even if it's not really a game
<Bornholio>
pap does that adjusted weight you said include the photobuckets? for the corona (SAMOS/KH-5) camera, I didn't find a breakdown for them
<Pap>
Bornholio: the details I found on it from some PDFs were that the film was that the camera setup was 92 pounds and the rest of the whole thing was only 53 pounds including film
<Bornholio>
okay, just looking for info mostly gave vehicle weights
<Pap>
Yeah, that is the issue I was orginally coming across. It would give me the weight of the total Agena stage with the Corona and the Film Return
<Pap>
That launch is going to have to be delayed with the hurricane coming, no?
<Bornholio>
not sure yet
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<Bornholio>
still showing its going, but no time on KSC events
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<Pap>
What is the usefulness of the X-37?
<Maxsimal|Work>
It's a secret?
<Pap>
I get that, but I am asking, what the usefulness could be
<Maxsimal|Work>
Probably to do military space science experiments that must be recovered. We don't have the shuttle anymore, the X-37 makes recovery simpler and its cross-range makes making sure it gets back home to the right place more probable?
<Maxsimal|Work>
Well, maybe 'recovery simpler' is not true, but the cross-range recovery is. You put some hardware in there that you really don't want landing in the wrong spot and this helps make sure it doesn't (plus the military probably wants space drones for shits and giggles too, some idiot over there is imagining dropping a seal stick on Pyongyang maybe.)
<Pap>
Ah, experimenting makes sense. Didn't think of that
<Maxsimal|Work>
I s'pose they could also be used to steal someone else's relatively small satellite. Or bring back a malfunctioning one of your own. I'm not sure if that's possible - I mean, even if you float up and fit the target sat inside the cargo bay, whether they have any mechanical means of tying it down or, barring that, if reentry would be impossible with it rattling around in the back.
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<Zophos>
Howdy! If anyone is available and interested, I'm trying to learn how to (efficiently) set up a free return trajectory from LEO to the moon and back. (And if not, that's fine, too!)
<Sigma88>
is the "if not" referring to "anyone is available" or "[to the moon] and back" :D
<Zophos>
Refers to "is available and interested" :)
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<Zophos>
So I managed to find a free return from my test satellite (0.1 deg relative inc. to moon, 218x220km orbit). But it seems extremely sensitive to small changes. I was tweaking it by 0.01 increments to get the final result, and it took me perhaps 30 min to find the thing.
<Zophos>
The problem was that I was more or less just flailing around in the general vicinity of the final maneuver, without a good way to predict where I should start the tweaking process.
<Pap>
Bornholio: See Zophos comments above, I know you were just discussing this recently
<Zophos>
Basically, I'm looking for two things: (1) confirmation or correction re: whether the maneuver really is that sensitive, and (2) a good reference or explanation of how to hunt down the right maneuver settings.
<Zophos>
Thanks in advance for any replies.
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<Maxsimal|Work>
Where were you flailing with the return, at the start of TLI or as a midcourse correction?
<Zophos>
At TLI. I never performed the burns. I was trying to find a single-burn free return from the LEO described.
<Zophos>
Figuring I'd have to do a MCC to account for any inaccuracies in the TLI burn.
<Zophos>
I wound up with a classic figure-8. Lunar periapsis at something like 70km, and return Earth periapsis at ~55km.
<Maxsimal|Work>
Yeah, from just wiki[edia 'While in a true free-return trajectory no propulsion is applied, in practice there may be small mid-course corrections or other maneuvers.' - probably indicates that yeah, even for a real space program, getting the free return bang on with just TLI is not typical
<Zophos>
But like I said, a tweak of 0.01 m/s or a 0.01s adjustment to start time throws it all off (e.g., I'd hit the Moon or miss the Earth)
<Maxsimal|Work>
Free return was there to have a safe return even if your main engine failed - not to prevent you from having to do corrections with RCS
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<Zophos>
Understood. So that seems to address the first point (it really is that sensitive).
<Zophos>
(And I'm well aware that I can't burn with 0.01 m/s accuracy, so there would inevitably be a MCC)
<Zophos>
Ok, so in practice, then, what's "close enough" when I'm setting up the TLI?
<Zophos>
I guess I can experiment with that -- set up a mediocre TLI, then see how big the MCC is to change to a true free-return
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<Maxsimal|Work>
I've read someplace that typical MCC's for lunar stuff could be up to 50-100m/s - tbh, I've never had to have anything near that much playing in RO, even changing my final orbit inclination drastically is at most 20m/s
<Maxsimal|Work>
But I think part of that could be the advantage we have in our 2-body orbit physics
<Zophos>
Sounds like I should just stop worrying so much and just set the true free-return at the MCC. I'll need to make sure I can really do 50+ m/s on RCS alone, but I probably can with my current service module.
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<Maxsimal|Work>
Yes. Another option is to do what apollo 13 did with it's 'most of the way to a TLI' burn and use the MCC to finish correcting to a true lunar intercept - any 'most of the way to TLI' should be easy to keep as a free return.
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<Zophos>
That makes sense. And safer, too -- it'd be easy to create a reentry periapsis if the main engine fails and I hit apoapsis at 350,000km.
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<wb99999999>
Rokker you seems to need only a fraction of the amount of sleep I do
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Rokker: I dare you to rebuild the X-37B in RO/RSS/RP0 and successfully reenter and land it
<Rokker>
Hypergolic_Skunk: nothx
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
BOO
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<Pap>
No, I understand that Rokker, I am just curious WHAT they are experimenting that has military benefits that cannot be done on the ISS
<Rokker>
Pap: stuff that they don't want civilians knowing about
<Rokker>
you can't really do top secret shit on the ISS
<Rokker>
Like testing stuff for NRO
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<awang>
Anyone here use EVA parachutes/ejection seats?
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<wb99999999>
afternoon folks
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<wb99999999>
anybody here?
<ProjectThoth>
no
<wb99999999>
okay then
<Bornholio>
only us chickens
<wb99999999>
it's more often than not when good engines don't make good rocket
<wb99999999>
almost too often...
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<wb99999999>
so I noticed something strange
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<wb99999999>
sometimes I hear about the Saturn I being an experiment on the concept of staging
<wb99999999>
but staging existed as long as orbital rocket itself
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<Bornholio>
given the wealth of bs hoisted by some, its likely they interpereted some statement like "it was the fist stage of saturn development" etc as it was the first staging :P always amazes me people who purport to be rocket experts that son't even know what a bumper is
<wb99999999>
but I have another theory
<wb99999999>
maybe for the engineers of the time it really is a new thing