<soundnfury>
NathanKell|Twitch: the crewed records (e.g. altitude, speed, crew count in space) probably need something like a 5-second timer, to stop them completing on scene change from a satellite to a plane
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: oh, did you see some of the Kalamazoo pics I started uploading
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
lamont: I am not so sure. Rotating frame won’t change relative positions
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Yeah, makes sense.
<NathanKell>
Rokker: Ah, I didn’t!
<lamont>
well, i’ll do more debugging later, got some sportsball to go see…
<awang>
What are the recommended RP-0 settings now?
<awang>
Was it 300% funds?
<Rokker>
NathanKell: just look at this beautiful centrifugal turbojet. nothing else to see in this picture http://i.imgur.com/qP2lYu2.jpg
<NathanKell>
Awang 4-5x the funds your chosen preset has
* Rokker
coughs
<NathanKell>
So if hard, 240-300%
<awang>
NathanKell: Alright, thanks!
<awang>
Is there a recommendation for moderate vs hard?
<NathanKell>
Rokker hah!
<NathanKell>
awang the rec is'how good are you?' :)
<awang>
Moderate has base 90%, so NathanKell's suggestion of 4-5x becomes 360-450%
<Rokker>
Pap: WHY U PING
<Pap>
awang: 400% total is the max I would even consider
<Pap>
Rokker: see image
<awang>
Pap: Alright, 360% it is
<Rokker>
Pap: why is there no f-35. why is it only inferior planes
<Pap>
No f-35 showed up
<Pap>
Navy Blue Angels better than USAF
<Bornholio_>
f-35 was grounded again?
<Rokker>
Pap: fuck you
<Pap>
lol
<awang>
How do IRL space programs decide when to ditch fairings?
<awang>
s/How/When
<Qboid>
awang meant to say: When do IRL space programs decide when to ditch fairings?
<awang>
Er
<awang>
Never mind that fix
<awang>
I can't English
<Rokker>
awang: when dynamic pressure is low enough
<soundnfury>
awang: typically I ditch 'em at Q < 10Pa, z > 100km
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<awang>
Hm
<awang>
10Pa sounds pretty low
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<awang>
Anyone use the cool rockets mod?
<xShadowx|2>
i do some, looks nice, needs work :P
<NathanKell>
awang: it’s more a thermal question than an air pressure question
<NathanKell>
(fairing jettison)
<NathanKell>
rather, early on for sure it’s for aero protection, but the thermo matters later than pure aero stress
<awang>
NathanKell: Huh, TIL
<Pap>
NathanKell: How close to crewed orbital are you?
<awang>
Is that modeled properly in RO?
<awang>
Or can we still jettison unrealistically early?
<NathanKell>
awang: No, we have quite high thermal tolerances for satellite parts
<NathanKell>
Pap: Not super close
<NathanKell>
I need to get enough science in LEO to unlock lunar nodes and buy lunar upgrades, then go lunar
<Pap>
OK, first set of Crewed Experiments are working!
<Pap>
No flavor text for completion yet, but working nonetheless
<NathanKell>
Awesome work!
<NathanKell>
Oh, also--
<NathanKell>
I was grumbling about nothing to do with my satellite (it’s a sounding rocket core, and now temp has no biomes in space)
<NathanKell>
but then I realized that’s...pretty correct
<NathanKell>
satellites were broadly gimmicks until the utility caught up
<awang>
NathanKell: Any plans on fixing those tolerances?
<Pap>
Yes, I tried to be accurate with it, once you get to Visibile Imaging, Imaging Spectrometry, Infrared Radiometry, Orbital Perturbation, then we are talking biome science
<NathanKell>
:)
<NathanKell>
awang: If someone works on it...? :]
<NathanKell>
But note, gotta be careful, because we’d need a whole second set of satellite parts for venus and mercury missions
<leudaimon>
oh, so early on only telemetry is biome specific now?
<Pap>
In High Space leudaimon, yes
<NathanKell>
flying low barom is. Flying high, temp is
<NathanKell>
in space, temp and barom are no biomes ever
<leudaimon>
but high space was only biome specific for orbital perturb since always
<NathanKell>
low space is now no longer biome specific for temp
<leudaimon>
what about space low for the film return camera?
<Pap>
Low Space Biome (continued): Magnetic Scan, Mass Spectrometry, Orbital Perturbation, Photography (Film Camera), Telemetry, Visible Imaging
<Pap>
So still quite a few
<awang>
NathanKell: Wait, so technically the physics are already there, it's just the part tolerances that are off?
<leudaimon>
yeah yeah... was thinking about the starting science... but if it's enough for advancing until lunar science it's fine
<leudaimon>
(or at least to grab some science nodes)
<NathanKell>
awang: Correct
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: It’s fine
<NathanKell>
I’m playing on hard and not KSC-switching and it’s fine :)
<leudaimon>
cool
<leudaimon>
do you guys think it is currently possible to start a career more for real than just testing?
<NathanKell>
I have started for real
<NathanKell>
The only issue is the biomes
<NathanKell>
Pap: Earth biomes changed name right?
<leudaimon>
are you playing with the new ones?
<NathanKell>
I did not think to
<leudaimon>
Is there a dev version of RSS for 1.2.2 I can grab with the new biomes?
<Bornholio_>
si RSS release?
<leudaimon>
about CC Pap... besides the -10k reward for karman line, there is a sample return contract CC is not loading (it's showing red in the Alt+F10 screen)
<NathanKell>
leudaimon is it the asteroid one?
<leudaimon>
let me see
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: Mine isn’t loading because I removed the asteroid part
<leudaimon>
yep, that's it
<Pap>
Yes they did NathanKell the biomes are different names (not all of them)
<Pap>
But, there is no reason we cannot release RSS for 1.2.2 again
<NathanKell>
...crap. I really shoulda pulled RSS before starting this career :D
<NathanKell>
Pap: How many biomes are there now?
<leudaimon>
Pap, If I just get the dev version I'm good?
<Pap>
The real issue is the Moon though. We REALLY have to decide what we want to do with the biomes.
<Pap>
11 on Earth
<NathanKell>
so ~73% of the science per biome if we uniformly scale down.
<NathanKell>
Hmm. The early career will be *quite* tight on Hard then.
<awang>
Is there anything specific I need to do to get the right KRASH settings?
<Pap>
Let me check my file. I think I took the new biomes into account
<leudaimon>
scaling down would be hard for atmospheric science
<NathanKell>
How many biomes can you reach from Canaveral in the new map?
<NathanKell>
Still shores/land/water?
<Pap>
And forest
<Pap>
Wait, no you can reach forest, shores and water.
<NathanKell>
Dang
<NathanKell>
That’s a problem then
<Pap>
For limiting the science you mean?
<NathanKell>
either we leave per-biome results as they are (and let you get ~1.375x the science from Earth you normally would) or we scale it down 8/11 and make the early career *very* science-limited on Hard
<NathanKell>
It’d work nearly perfectly if there were a fourth biome reachable from the Cape
<Pap>
Let me double check the map
<soundnfury>
Pap: I ♥ your new science parts/experiments
<leudaimon>
with less biome-specific science that shouldn't make much of a difference later on, and early on it's nice to have some additional science without getting biome-grinding
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: one thing I noticed, I'm playing from a non-Cape launch site, but I'm paying maintenance for the level1 pad at the Cape
<Pap>
Awesome soundnfury!
<soundnfury>
not a problem, because it's only like 9ſ/yr or something, but still
<Pap>
NathanKell I think we can leave it alone. We have less biomes specific science and no flying low science
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Ah. That is a problem then.
<NathanKell>
Pap: Ok. Then I will h4x my save to make it look like I had the new biomes, and we’ll see how much earth science I get
<NathanKell>
for the moon...hmm. How many biomes are in the new map? like 15 or so?
<Pap>
27
<NathanKell>
....ah
<Pap>
:)
<NathanKell>
That...seems a bit much tbh :\
<NathanKell>
Very whackamole
<NathanKell>
Is there anything that can be combined?
<Pap>
However, if I remove the 10 craters, we are down to 17
<leudaimon>
27 is more like features than biomes in my opinion (well biome is a very silly anyway)
<Pap>
leudaimon: true
<leudaimon>
s/very/very silly
<soundnfury>
whackamole is fine, everyone has [x] right?
<Qboid>
leudaimon meant to say: 27 is more like features than biomes in my opinion (well biome is a very silly silly anyway)
<NathanKell>
17 is probably right at the limit
<leudaimon>
damn
<leudaimon>
very silly name
<ferram4_>
Can we somehow change the name of those to "region" instead?
<ferram4_>
And why am I underscore
ferram4_ is now known as ferram4
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Um. But it also means waiting forever since the moon rotates so slowly.
<Pap>
I took the 10 largest craters and gave them their own biomes. They can be combined into the already existing Major Craters
<leudaimon>
I wonder why the devs decided to name biomes features of lifeless planets and moons
<NathanKell>
I’m going to take a lucky guess and say felipe~~~~
<ferram4>
Clearly, because there are bits of green goop everywhere.
<leudaimon>
possible, biome is a very used word in Brazil >.>
<xShadowx|2>
craters are diff - esp if you find what made the crater :P
<Pap>
The mares are all named and the ocean of storms is named
<xShadowx|2>
but then its more a monolith location instead of biome
<ferram4>
Pap, what about one for the polar nver-get-any-sun craters?
<Pap>
There is a North pole biome and south pole biome. They could be combined into poles?
Bornholio_ is now known as Bornholio
<Pap>
And Aitken Basin is named, as it should be
<Pap>
Quite possibly the most interesting thing on the Moon...
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<xShadowx|2>
...wouldnt moon always get sun at some point? tidal locked, so as i moves around earth wouldnt it show every side to the sun?o.O
<soundnfury>
one of these days I need to send a probe to Pluto
<soundnfury>
so I can find out if it has a Tombaugh Regio biome
<Pap>
I think there are deep enough craters on the poles xShadowx|2 that never get sunlight
<soundnfury>
or Sputnik Planum
<ferram4>
xShadowx|2, not in some of the polar craters. The crater rim creates enough of a shadow that the insides never get light.
<xShadowx|2>
ah k :)
<soundnfury>
(and clearly there needs to be a dead^Wsleeping kraken in Cthulhu Regio
<xShadowx|2>
did any moon missions bring back the meteors that caused any of the craters?
<Pap>
xShadowx|2: I actually don't know where they all landed, but none of them landed in any major craters, did they?
<ferram4>
Oh, right. Does the Neil Armstrong monument still show up on the RSS moon, or is that culled out?
<NathanKell>
Oh! Right, we need to kill all those PQSCities.
<NathanKell>
Never got around to it
<Pap>
Damn, I always forget to kill those!
<NathanKell>
welp, sayonara Russia2 campaign
<NathanKell>
No moon landing or station for you
<Pap>
Lolol
<Pap>
Russia3 for the win!
<Pap>
Bornholio: did you decide to head to the path of totality tomorrow?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Ok I’m haxing my save
<NathanKell>
we’ll see if it works
<NathanKell>
Since I’m not going to the moon for a bit, it’s ok the biomes will be different
<Bornholio>
if the weather is good yes pap,
<Bornholio>
will head somewhwere between beatrice NE and Kearny. noticed heavy travelling today when we drove to lincoln
<leudaimon>
if I grab RSS's branch Pap-RSS the new biomes will work already?
<Bornholio>
somewhere, not sure what that other word is
<Pap>
leudaimon: no, grab master branch of RSS
<leudaimon>
ah ok
<Pap>
Then you need different textures than what you have now
<NathanKell>
I just pushed a recompiled DLL for 1.2
<leudaimon>
ok
<leudaimon>
call me stupid, but how do I download a github subfolder without git'ting it?
<NathanKell>
I don’t know a way
<NathanKell>
you can grab invidual files
<leudaimon>
oh, ok
<NathanKell>
or you can grab the repo
<NathanKell>
nothing in between
<NathanKell>
(AFAIK)
<NathanKell>
Pap: Forest is the one near KSC, yeah, not Grasslands?
<Pap>
Correct
<NathanKell>
What’s broadly equivalent to the old Highlands?
<NathanKell>
Also, uh, I thought biomes couldn’t have spaces
<NathanKell>
mind if I do Ice Caps->Icecaps ?
<Pap>
There are a ton of biomes with spaces with no problems, but sure.
<NathanKell>
Ah, huh
<NathanKell>
How do they show in sfs ?
<NathanKell>
do you have a save where you’ve gotten data from Ice Caps I can see?
<Pap>
Old highlands doesn't really have a good equivalent, but maybe Taiga
<Pap>
NathanKell I don't think I have one still unfortunately. I just recently nuked all my old stuff
<NathanKell>
ah nm
<NathanKell>
Hmm, the space is stripped when creating the ID
<Pap>
Ah, interesting
<NathanKell>
I’ll make the change for icecaps just in case (unless you care about Stock RSS biomes being the same?)
<NathanKell>
stock-scale
<NathanKell>
ah, y’know
<NathanKell>
let’s see if it works with the space
<awang>
Oh wait, RSS master needs different textures?
<awang>
Dangit, I *just* finished loading KSP
<awang>
Whelp, time to wait for another hour
<NathanKell>
ok! Hacked
<NathanKell>
Fingers crossed
<awang>
Does texture resolution affect framerate?
<awang>
Or just memory usage?
<NathanKell>
depends on your GPU
<awang>
I guess in my case the answer would be "yes", then
<Pap>
awang: The nice thing about the new setup of RSS and textures is that the textures now get loaded on demand
<awang>
They weren't lazily loaded before?
<awang>
I thought that Active Texture Management did something like that
<awang>
And was made obselete by changes in KSP
<NathanKell>
Pap: Oh I bet I need a new Kopernicus
<Pap>
No, it wasn't supported by previous versions of Kopernicus
<Pap>
NathanKell: I wouldn't think so, you have the most updated version for 1.2.2?
<NathanKell>
Ahahahahahano
<Pap>
lol, oh
<NathanKell>
I have the one that I released the first 1.2.2 RSS on
<NathanKell>
Like, last November.
<Pap>
Don't forget ModuleFlightIntegrator as well then
<NathanKell>
Ah, that got updated too?
<NathanKell>
Ok
<Pap>
NathanKell: I did find a version of my saves with science from the caps: shows like this...temperatureScan@EarthInSpaceLowIceCaps
<NathanKell>
yep
<NathanKell>
spaces removed for ID
<NathanKell>
KSP >.>
<Pap>
ok
<leudaimon>
is it kopernicus 1.2.2-10?
<NathanKell>
it’s the Backports one yeah
<NathanKell>
(I would think)
<leudaimon>
ok
<leudaimon>
what about MFI?
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: [19:23] <@Pap> Don't forget ModuleFlightIntegrator as well then
<NathanKell>
use the one in the Kopernicus download
<leudaimon>
yeah, but the releases are confusing
<leudaimon>
ah ok
<Pap>
^^^yup
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<Bornholio>
pap we calling chane to scaledRSS textures official for dev?
<Bornholio>
change
<Pap>
Bornholio: We are going to have to, but I think we should just release them as new version of the RSS Textures and I can get rid of that repo
<Bornholio>
k moon biomes going to get scrubbed, or balance to new number?
<Pap>
Bornholio: Balanced to a new number I think
<Bornholio>
k then i'll start a new game with all that rolling
<awang>
Is the RemoteTech flight computer any good?
<Pap>
awang: no, it is bad. Very very bad
<Bornholio>
iyuck
<awang>
Oh, still?
<Pap>
awang: I don't think it has been updated in a long time
<awang>
How do you handle signal delay?
<Bornholio>
MJ
<Bornholio>
or turn it off :P
<awang>
I'm not anywhere close to actually using them in a playthrough, but I was going through Scott Manley's old RP-0 playthrough and one of the episodes reminded me of previous issues I had
<awang>
lol, that works
<Pap>
TURN IT OFF!!!!
<Pap>
Even NathanKell|Twitch the masochist that he is turns it off
<awang>
So much for signal delay
<Bornholio>
I leave it on until i start doing planetary
<soundnfury>
on my install (maybe because Linux) signal delay only applies to actions, not flight-controls
<NathanKell|Twitch>
I turned off signal delay this time
<awang>
Well, if NathanKell doesn't play with signal delay, that must be the right way to play
<NathanKell|Twitch>
soundnfury: We thought that was a linux bug. But it’s actually an all-platforms ‘feature’ of RT
<Bornholio>
pap what is your target location for viewing?
<Bornholio>
totality that is
<Pap>
Bornholio: Near Carbondale, IL. About 6 hours direct south. We are leaving at 4 am
<Bornholio>
darn, drive safe. you should go to sleep soon :P
<Pap>
I am the passenger :)
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|Twitch: hunh. How nice.
<Bornholio>
good
<Pap>
But I am laying donw soon
<wb99999999>
the solar eclipse?
<Bornholio>
I tested mylar reflective film with cameras today, 5ND+2 layers of emergency blanket was good :)
<Bornholio>
wb9's yes
<wb99999999>
that's very nice
<Bornholio>
gonna start calling you seven, since you have eight 9's
<Pap>
Bornholio, I tested my moon filter with eclipse glasses on my telescope. Worked well, but won't be trying it because when I removed the moon filter it burned a hole through the glasses in less than 1 second
<Bornholio>
lol, filters on input...
<Bornholio>
yeah waiting to hear about the people who burn their eyes using optics wrong
<awang>
Wonder if NASA is going to get sued for some of those injuries
<wb99999999>
I think whatever in charge of public health in the U.S. should make an announcement or something
<Bornholio>
wonder how many of the "Eclipse" glasses are crap, know amazon recalled some brand
<Pap>
People are too stupid to realize, I have had many poeple tell me, I look at the sun, what is the problem?
<wb99999999>
What's the name of the US governmental body for public health anyway?
<awang>
CDC?
<awang>
Or the surgeon general
<Bornholio>
CDC and Department of Health and human sservice
<wb99999999>
It's a weird experience if you've ever launched a Proton with Briz-M
<wb99999999>
the Proton part have really high TWR
<Bornholio>
awang gotta crash, good luch troubleshooting if you find a flaw please issue it :P
Bornholio is now known as borntosleep
<wb99999999>
but after sep you are suddenly dealing with something like 0.08G
<awang>
borntosleep: :(
<SpecimenSpiff>
so my understanding is to be current I need to pull RSS, scaled RSS textures, KCT, RO, RP-0, and the KCT dll from dropbox. anything else?
<awang>
RF dll from dropbox too
<borntosleep>
RF dll
<awang>
Kopernicus, maybe?
<awang>
Oh, and DMagic Orbital Science
<SpecimenSpiff>
I have a working version, just trying to get the stuff that changed in the last couple of days
<wb99999999>
blowfish yeah most soviet/russian upper stage are horribly long-buring
<wb99999999>
even blok D
<blowfish>
10 minutes isn't so bad
<leudaimon>
Pap|AFK, any reason for [x] science not to detect telemetry analysis anymore?
<wb99999999>
Principia comes very handy when flying these low thrust stages
<leudaimon>
btw, I still get science flying low
<NathanKell|Twitch>
!tell Pap* biomes and science working fine! :) Only issue is trimming lunar biomes.
<Qboid>
NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<NathanKell>
leudaimon: It has been detecting it for me
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<leudaimon>
weird... it was working to me too before these last installs
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<NathanKell>
leudaimon: You started fresh yes?
<NathanKell>
If not, it might have gotten confused
<leudaimon>
yeah I did...
<NathanKell>
I had an issue the prior start where it didn’t see telemetry
<NathanKell>
but this one has been fine
<NathanKell>
I guess try starting again, if you’re only a bit in?
<NathanKell>
beyond that, dunno :(((
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<leudaimon>
well, I might just live with it...
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<wb99999999>
hmm, anyone have clues on why the larger Kuznetsov engines have more ignition while the smaller ones have only 1?
<wb99999999>
Apparently Kuznetsov is so rad his engines weren't even called "RD(rocket engine)"...
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<NathanKell>
wb99999999: The early engines had one ignition. However, for the N1 improvement project the NK-9V derivatives there (NK-39 IIRC?) used on the translunar injection stage was given restart capability.
<NathanKell>
wb99999999: For modern uses, the NK-33 was also given reignition capability.
<NathanKell>
However, the NK-9s and NK-15s weren’t just not restartable in space, they were not restartable *period*. That is to say, *they could not be test fired*.
<NathanKell>
Which goes a long way in explaining the reliability issues.
<NathanKell>
night!
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<egg|zzz|egg>
!tell awang that error sounds like you have a save with only some bodies, and are loading it with a Kopernicus config that has more bodies (e.g. upgrading RSS on the same save), which will break things (because Principia's ephemeris requires that all bodies be integrated from the start, which means you can't make new bodies appear out of thin air)
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg|zzz|egg>
!tell awang I guess if you want to upgrade an existing save to the new RSS you need to remove the serialized_plugin nodes in the cfg, so that there is no pre-existing Principia-side state (and thus it gets rebuilt). Note that this *will* move things around a bit, especially in interplanetary space (low-orbit stuff should be fine)
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<egg|cell|egg>
!tell pap,bornholio that actually seems like a significant issue to move forward with that RSS release
<Qboid>
egg|cell|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg|cell|egg>
Also NK
<Pap|AFK>
egg|cell|egg: Because it is save game breaking?
<Qboid>
Pap|AFK: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [21.08.2017 03:07:45]: "nope the Mass Spec is working fine. I think it was just not returning anything for flying biomes"
<Qboid>
Pap|AFK: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [21.08.2017 03:44:16]: "biomes and science working fine! :) Only issue is trimming lunar biomes."
<egg|cell|egg>
Pap yeah, kinda (mostly, will detail when I'm on my work desktop)
<egg|cell|egg>
Pap: what's your timezone
<Pap|AFK>
egg|cell|egg: Central, but I am awake as we are leaving to drive south for the Eclipse
<egg|cell|egg>
Pap: ack; will give details in maybe 15 min or so, I'm bad at typing on a phone
<Pap|AFK>
No problem, I'll be the passenger in a car for 7 hours, so will have plenty of time
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<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: ok, here I am
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: so, Principia has an ephemeris, which is the thing that knows & precomputes the trajectories of celestial bodies; since the motion of every body there is affected by the others, you can't add any without making things inconsistent
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: and indeed the Ephemeris API was designed with the idea that the set of bodies never changes
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: what this means is that if a body appears in game that's not in the ephemeris, it's a logic error (we can't do anything with it: it can't apply gravity to vessels, because it doesn't exist to us, we can't plot with respect to it, etc.), and thus we die with a FATAL failure.
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: for the upcoming RSS update, this means that a new save on the new version will be fine; but upgrading will cause a crash on load.
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: one possible workaround would be to remove the principia part of the save, but that's tedious, and that's not compatibility, that's asking the user to hack around in their savefile;
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: also, that will garble the positions of any vessels that aren't in very nicely Keplerian orbits (and screw up transfers etc.)
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: not sure there's a good answer here tbh
<Pap|AFK>
egg|work|egg: OK, so all of the new bodies are fully supported by principia, but the issue happens if someone is trying to use an existing save only?
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: exactly
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<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: like, I could see a potential workaround (reconstructing an ephemeris), but that would be a lot of engineering owrk, and turn the main focus of the next release (Cesàro) to that, instead of working on fixing the landing issue (by unifying the ferram4 and egg sectors), and the latter seems more important, looking forward
<egg|work|egg>
(also it would delay you by a month, which is also shitty)
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: actually if you were using RSS + the expansion and upgrade RSS while removing the expansion you might be fine (assuming that you kept the same flightglobalsindices)
<Pap|AFK>
egg|work|egg: I don't think you should concentrate on remaking the ephemeris at all. RP-0 is going to be save breaking anyway. I think we will just release all together. Then the note exists for everyone they it is not compatible with old saves. Then the small group of people that play RSS with SMURFF and Principia (there might not be any) will have to learn how to read and listen.
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: ok, if you're savebreaking yourselves then it's all fine
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: we do a lot of work for compatibility, so that's why I was taking it seriously, but no need to work around a nonexistent problem :-)
<Pap|AFK>
Yeah, I think in this situation (since we are breaking so much stuff) it will be alright. That is the biggest reason that NathanKell wanted to make so many changes to our stuff, because we wanted to limit how many times we would break saves.
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: this is kinda hell to test, you have to make old-looking serializations :-p
<egg|work|egg>
(but body set change compat would be much bigger than this, because it has to go all the way up to ask for the initial state and remake the ephemeris, hence this mess :-p)
<egg|work|egg>
Pap|AFK: so, it's all good then :D
<Pap|AFK>
Great!
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<awang>
!tell Born* Principia abort()s when loading a save. Happens even with the new release.
<Qboid>
awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid>
in air)"
<Qboid>
awang: egg|zzz|egg left a message for you in #RO [21.08.2017 07:51:07]: "that error sounds like you have a save with only some bodies, and are loading it with a Kopernicus config that has more bodies (e.g. upgrading RSS on the same save), which will break things (because Principia's ephemeris requires that all bodies be integrated from the start, which means you can't make new bodies appear out of th
<Qboid>
awang: egg|zzz|egg left a message for you in #RO [21.08.2017 08:02:02]: "I guess if you want to upgrade an existing save to the new RSS you need to remove the serialized_plugin nodes in the cfg, so that there is no pre-existing Principia-side state (and thus it gets rebuilt). Note that this *will* move things around a bit, especially in interplanetary space (low-orbit stuff should be fine)"
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<darsie>
What's the downside of using Avionics to 200%?
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<Maxsimal>
Cost. ALthough the proc avionics need to be reworked a bit, the upper-stage avionics in particular
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<Pap|AFK>
o/
<Bornholio>
hi pap
<Qboid>
Bornholio: egg|cell|egg left a message for you in #RO [21.08.2017 08:43:04]: "that actually seems like a significant issue to move forward with that RSS release"
<Qboid>
Bornholio: awang left a message for you in #RO [21.08.2017 10:47:07]: "Principia abort()s when loading a save. Happens even with the new release."
<Pap|AFK>
Drive safely today Bornholio. What time are you leaving?
<Bornholio>
11-12 but i might be out of luck for cloud coverage no matter what, its raining/storming now
<Pap|AFK>
awang, Bornholio I talked with egg|work|egg this morning. We will release the new RSS when we release RP-0 next. New RSS with Principia is save breaking as will be RP-0.
<Pap|AFK>
Damn, sorry to hear Bornholio
<Bornholio>
you on the road?
<Pap|AFK>
Yep, we left about 2.5 hours ago
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<awang>
!tell Born* Never mind, egg knew what the issue was
<Qboid>
awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang>
egg|work|egg: Yep, that did the trick. Thanks!
<awang>
Luckily, I wasn't far into the save, so restarting wasn't a huge loss
<awang>
Pap|AFK: What's the ETA for the RP-0 release?
<Pap|AFK>
awang: I would think a couple weeks still
<awang>
Alright
<awang>
Glad to know why Principia was aborting, though
<darsie>
I have hydrazien RCS thrusters on a tank filled with hydrazine, but the engineer says it's unused and not receiving it.
<Maxsimal>
Did you make sure it's pressurized?
<darsie>
yes
<darsie>
Didn't have hydrazine as option without pressure.
<darsie>
Was missing in the GUI list.
<Maxsimal>
I don't play with KER installed, maybe it doesn't read the RCS correctly though, did you test it in flight?
<darsie>
not yet.
<darsie>
What is KER?
<Maxsimal>
KER - kerbal engineer redux - that's what you meant by 'engineer' yes?
<darsie>
I meant the Engineer's Report.
<awang>
Pap|AFK: Is the biological sample capsule supposed to be that expensive?
<awang>
Maxsimal: I thought KER was broken with RO?
<Maxsimal>
awang: I dunno, I don't use it. And darsie means something else anyway.
<Pap|AFK>
awang: how much is it? 250?
<darsie>
The one in the VAB at the cog button which is also in stock.
<awang>
Pap|AFK: Yeah
<Maxsimal>
darsie: No idea, I never look at that unless it's red because my vessel is too big.
<Pap|AFK>
Yes it is. Science experiments were way too cheap before. I increased most of them
<awang>
Pap|AFK: :O
<Maxsimal>
darsie: Try it in flight - I do know RO RCS stuff doesn't read properly for some things - like for MechJeb DV calculations.
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<egg|work|egg>
awang: yeah that message could be a bit more eggsplicit
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<awang>
Uh
<awang>
Something with KCT is borked
<awang>
I'm getting different upgrade rates after visitng the VAB for the first time
<awang>
And different build rates
<awang>
Right when a save is created, rate 1 is 0.1 BP/s
<awang>
After visiting the VAB, 0.075 BP/s
<awang>
And +0.05 before visiting the VAB
<awang>
After it's +0.00375
<awang>
egg|work|egg: Qboid should automatically s/ex/eggs
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<darsie>
I researched Survivability, but I only get the non RP-0 - EATCS Radiator Panel (short) in 'Thermal'. Where are the heat shields?
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<darsie>
In Avionics [Procedural] s/add/and
<Pap|AFK>
darsie: sounds like you don't have deadly reentry instslled
<Pap|AFK>
It is a dependency
<darsie>
ok ...
<darsie>
ckan can't update the package list.
<darsie>
And I set it to do it every time so I can't use it.
<Bornholio_>
so just grab the release or master from github
<Qboid>
Bornholio_: awang left a message for you in #RO [21.08.2017 12:00:23]: "Never mind, egg knew what the issue was"
<Bornholio>
should be showing up unless you have a NoNonRP0 folder in your gamedata
<Pap|AFK>
Is RO/RP-0 installed correctly? It sounds like they might not be
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<Pap|AFK>
Might have some folders inside of folders there
<Bornholio>
they are showing non-rp0
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<Theysen>
Pap|AFK, does your RSS commits work in 1.2.2? I installed and for example the ground stations don't show
<Qboid>
Theysen: lamont left a message for you in #RO [20.08.2017 22:13:34]: "yeah your upper stage is very low TWR and has a 14 minute long burn time, the existing PEG code will have difficult with that, shuttle code should be better, but its a bit of a mess right now so I can’t check convergence…"
<Theysen>
lamont, roger gotcha! It
<Theysen>
^ are you going to implement the shuttle guidance at one point? :O
<Pap|AFK>
Theysen: I haven't tested it, but it should. NathanKell installed it last night and reported no issues
<darsie>
Pap|AFK: I installed RSS (which selected RO) and RP-0 with ckan.
<Theysen>
Pap|AFK, I mean I don't see a difference of anything anyways but I wonder why even the remote tech stuff doesn't show correctly (Natal, Libreville, etc.)
<Pap|AFK>
darsie: my bad. I thought you were on the dev version.
<Pap|AFK>
Wait Theysen did you download my branch or the master branch?
<Theysen>
Pap|AFK, masta
<Theysen>
but still the omni's should show since you declared them correctly
<Pap|AFK>
I didn't change any of those. I just changed the planets. Didn't touch the antenna stuff
<Theysen>
Ha. Ha. Jokes on me I downloaded the master like 1 hour before Nathan recompiled too
<Bornholio>
darsie, yeah they are showing up in Aero for some reason
<darsie>
Bornholio: Ahh, yeah, there they are :).
<darsie>
thank you :)
<darsie>
Where's the film return capsule?
<darsie>
I have the camera.
<Theysen>
comes later
<Theysen>
Science Overhaul changed quite a few things :)
<darsie>
ok
<Pap|AFK>
There isn't one. You can transfer science to the probe cores, or return it whole
<Bornholio>
darsie you are on release version right? CKAN everything, no master/dev stuff?
<darsie>
yes
<Bornholio>
k I'll make an install later and see if i can figure out why they go to the wrong category
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<darsie>
What's the difference between booster, upper stage and probe core with procedural avionics? Just the mass limits? Or control limitations or so, too?
<darsie>
power demand
<Bornholio>
cost/weight/SAS modes utilization curves all change along with things like power and hibernation mode
<darsie>
ok
<darsie>
Wow, that 152 kg probe core costs 16,304 for an 805 kg probe. Guess I'll wait till tech advances and take an upper stage core now.
<darsie>
Also needs 150 W.
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<Theysen>
ehrmagawd, 120k internet connection ordered. RIP life
<Bornholio>
KSP on computer, RIP life
<Theysen>
:D :D :D this!!!!
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<darsie>
How did I get -1 available upgrades for KCT?
<darsie>
I had 50, now 49.
<Theysen>
I had that once too.
<Theysen>
no idea really
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<awang>
Anyone see KCT build rates change upon making a new save?
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<Bornholio>
Nathan changes things, i nver know what to blame :P
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<Bornholio>
Pap Stupid clouds...
<Bornholio>
If only some large ball of fire would burn them away for a couple hours
<Bornholio>
oh praise the ball of fire burneth away the fould indignation of mine against those fluffy white obstructions to your granduer!
<awang>
NathanKell|AWAY: it's all your fault!
<awang>
Oh, and the upgrade amount shown is a lie :(
<awang>
Says +0.05, actually is +0.0025
<awang>
Wait, I think the KCT changing is just a visual glitch
<Pap|AFK>
And so it has begun...
<awang>
Says 0.1 BP/s when starting a save, but immediately changes to 0.075 when upgrading
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<awang>
KRASH takes funds even if you can't launch :(
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<NathanKell|WORK>
awang: yes that's a KCT visual display bug. Mentioned on Bornholio's new-RP0 wiki page
<darsie>
Hmm, the "IB - Interstage - w/ Decoupler [Procedural]" adds a decoupler symbol to the staging stack and makes an explosion when activated, but it says "Remember to add a decoupler if you need one." and doesn't actually decouple.
<Pap-Eclipse>
darsie: yeah, unless someone else says different, it doesn't work like that.
<NathanKell|WORK>
darsie: The *top* (i.e. floating-in-space) node decouples
<NathanKell|WORK>
The warning is if you want to decouple something that is attached directly to the base itself.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
was about to say that - I don't even use any of the intermediate nodes, only the top one
<leudaimon|Work>
!tell NathanKell* the telemetry analysis returned to [x] science by itself... strangely without any restart or anything, just appeared after a flight
<Qboid>
leudaimon|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon|Work: weird
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: leudaimon|Work left a message for you in #RO [21.08.2017 18:18:48]: "the telemetry analysis returned to [x] science by itself... strangely without any restart or anything, just appeared after a flight"
<leudaimon|Work>
yeah, no idea what happened
<Bornholio>
yeah, was a nice eclipse except for a darn cloud that wouldn't move for an hour, blue sky half and fuzzy clouds the other half. You bastard murphy! Pap has nice clearness?
<Bornholio>
NathanKell|WORK what makes the symetrical control surfaces and rcs not change when one of the set is changed.
<Bornholio>
PBS has NASA live, very good coverage. Hope they are posting 'tube videos
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Bornholio: I don't know. Wish I did
<NathanKell|WORK>
I've never seen it be a problem with RCS, only control
<NathanKell|WORK>
surfaces
<Bornholio>
its so random, gets frustrating if i notice it in flight as i try to correct something :P
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<leudaimon|Work>
random and off-topic question... is there anybody from czech republic around?
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<Bornholio>
I wish, are you going to visit? I've a few distant relatives.
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<leudaimon|Work>
Bornholio, I'm going for an academic fellowship during my post-doc, for 10 months... My doubt is that I will have to purchase a laptop, and would like to know if they are more affordable than in Brazil, and how difficult it is to get one with an international keyboard
<leudaimon|Work>
(eletronics are very expensive in Brazil)
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<Bornholio>
darn first world problems. my very limited experience was that it was cheaper or on par with the US and slightly less than germany
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<Maxsimal>
!tell NathanKell: seeing something odd with the B9 proc wings. A tiny one can now store 500kg of fuel.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<leudaimon|Work>
nice Bornholio, much cheaper than Brazil then
<leudaimon|Work>
do you think it's possible to get a laptop with international keyboard easily?
<Bornholio>
i din't have to buy a computer there tho. can you read a bit of czech? I saw a czech keyboard for my acer for 17USD
<leudaimon|Work>
I know absolutely nothing of czech... but knowing it's affordable there I'll take the risk... you can always use a different layout and ignore what is printed on the keys
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<Bornholio>
grab theysen and see what he has to say
<leudaimon|Work>
he is german, right?
<Pap-Eclipse>
Yes
<Pap-Eclipse>
And Hypergolic_Skunk is German, but living in Amsterdam
<Maxsimal>
!tell NathanKell: Might be good to include an RP0 Krash config MM patch - if it can be done through an MM patch
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<ferram4>
So, quick question: has anyone here that's using the FAR dev build found any really nasty gamebreaking issues?
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<SpecimenSpiff>
o/
<SpecimenSpiff>
Did everyone enjoy watching the Death Star moving into position this morning?
<Pap-Eclipse>
Maxsimal: I created a MM patch for KRASH, but I didn't set it up right. If you have time can you check it? It is in the RP-0 directory already
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<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
R&D for me is horrendously slow until all of the first set of unlockables are researched
<awang>
Pap-Eclipse: The KRASH settings appear to work if you manually copy the config to the KRASH directory
<leudaimon|Work>
ah! that's why I thought simulations were so expensive even though there was a cfg for KRASH
<awang>
leudaimon|Work: Same here!
<awang>
Also, what should the rollout cost for the A-4 be?
<ku5anagi>
Hey, are there any instructions on how to set up RP-0 for the development version? I want to help test but I'm not sure if there is anything I should be aware of? Do I just clone all the dev versions of all dependencies and rp-0 from github?
<awang>
ku5anagi: Get DMagic Orbital Science, dev RP-0/RO, and a KCT and RF dll from a dropbox link in one of the RP-0 issues
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<NathanKell|WORK>
ku5anagi: get the last release of DMagic Orbital Science for 1.2, that is, not the 1.3 versions
<NathanKell|WORK>
ku5anagi: you also need to replace your existing RSS
<NathanKell|WORK>
ku5anagi: get the master branch of https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealSolarSystem/ and then replace the Kopernicus and MFI with the 1.2-backports release of Kopernicus.
<ku5anagi>
Alright, thanks! I will set that up and see if it works.
<Maxsimal>
Pap-Eclipse: Hrmm, I don't know MM well at all, but shouldn't it be @KRASHCustom to add the RP-0 config to to KrashCustom?
<Pap-Eclipse>
I think it should be that yes. I thought when I wrote it that I was told it would work without it, but yes, that should work.
<Maxsimal>
NathanKel|Workl: Update on that B9 wing issue, after I run a Krash sim, my b9 wing returns to the default size - probably why it can store so much fuel, it's not getting the size edits I'm doing
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: That sounds like an issue in the wings then maybe? Dunno
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell|Work: yeah something's wrong with them.
<Pap-Eclipse>
NathanKell|WORK: This morning around 330, I think I've got the Moon down to 17 biomes. I don't think we should change the landed science, but change the multiplier for low and high science.
<Maxsimal>
@Pap-Eclipse: Yeah that fixed it, I'll create a PR for it.
<Pap-Eclipse>
Thanks Maxsimal!
<github>
[RP-0] ppboyle opened pull request #757: fix to make this RP0 config available. (Developmental...Developmental) https://git.io/v5Uln
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<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 closed pull request #757: fix to make this RP0 config available. (Developmental...Developmental) https://git.io/v5Uln
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 122f873 ppboyle: fix to make this RP0 config available.
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 51132b3 Pap: Merge pull request #757 from ppboyle/Developmental...
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 2 new commits to Developmental: https://git.io/v5UlP
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap-Eclipse: ok!
<NathanKell|WORK>
makes sense
<soundnfury>
my hard disk is making funny noises and not talking to the OS. Time to reboot and hope it's not totally scagged...
<NathanKell|WORK>
for that film camera you probably want a 2m shield
<darsie>
Heat shield (1.25 m) "LEO-rated heat shield. Not rated for lunar returns."
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yep, and that camera is about that wide too. If a part isn't reentry-rated, you need a rather larger shield
<darsie>
Really, a bigger one? That'll be a PITA to get aerodynamic on ascend.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Why are you returning the whole camera anyway? Not unlocked the Early Controllable Core yet?
<darsie>
hmm. ok
<darsie>
dunno
<darsie>
I used the procedural core.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah. Does it support science experiment storage?
<darsie>
I'll check. It doesn't stand heat well, though.
<darsie>
500/900 K only.
<darsie>
The camera is 1073/1073 K or so.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ya. But if you're not trying to return the camera, you don't need a wide PLF.
<NathanKell|WORK>
just wide enough for the probe core and parachute
<darsie>
PLF?
<NathanKell|WORK>
payload launch fairing
<darsie>
The camera and core context menus don't have anything about data storage.
<darsie>
Hmm, the camera is advertised as 1073/1073 K, but in flight it says 912.18 K.
<darsie>
Yeah, I have the early controllable core.
<darsie>
How do I transfer data?
<darsie>
Dunno where the ships manifesto is.
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<darsie>
oops, ksp crashed.
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<soundnfury>
Yup, hard disk scagged :(
<UmbralRaptor>
=(
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: Welp. :\
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<soundnfury>
It may not actually be the disk (head crash etc.), it could be the drive electronics.
* soundnfury
isn't knowledgeable enough to tell
<Bornholio>
generally not worth thee work to recover, any particular symptom? clicks, buzz, squeel?
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: periodic buzz (about once per second)
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<soundnfury>
after a few seconds it gives up doing anything at all
<Bornholio>
could be the armature locked in out position
<soundnfury>
(and the OS gets a stream of 'status: DRDY ERR' and 'failed command: READ DMA')
<soundnfury>
That does indeed seem possible
<ku5anagi>
Alright I think I managed to install the RP-0 dev version. The game starts up, the installed mods seem to be present, I have the new techtree. However KCT complained about an error and said it would make the game unplayable.
<ku5anagi>
The log gets spammed with missing method exceptions about MagiCore.MathParsing.ParseMath.
<soundnfury>
but I don't know of any way of trying to fix it that wouldn't totally kill all chance of getting it fixed by someone who knows what they're doing
<Bornholio>
soundnfury you need the data on it?
<ku5anagi>
Any ideas? I replaced KCT's dll with the one mentioned in the github issue.
<NathanKell|WORK>
ku5anagi: Install the latest KCT from spacedock (including magicore)
<Bornholio>
DMagic OS installed?
<NathanKell|WORK>
then use my dll on top
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: most of it is not that valuable, but there's a branch of Harris I hadn't pushed to github
<soundnfury>
that I'd be somewhat annoyed to lose
<ku5anagi>
I thought I had the latest KCT and it came with magicore, but I will double check.
<Bornholio>
. desicant and stuff it in a ziplock bag and in the freezer, you might get it to run long enough to take off the data. also USB booting it can work
<Bornholio>
just get off what you need and scrap it.
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: yeah I think I'll postpone doing anything like that until I have a new HDD all ready to receive the data
<soundnfury>
since for now I have a PC with everything except /home on it, which I can live with
<soundnfury>
(the OS is all on an SSD you see)
<Bornholio>
most of the data i've recovered from drives is using an external USB adapter, seems to be overly tollerant
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<ku5anagi>
Oh it seems I didn't have the latest version of KCT after all. I had 1.3.4 and should have used 1.3.5.7.
<NathanKell|WORK>
yep, and then replace the dll with mine
<soundnfury>
anyway yeah I think I'll entrust my disk to a professional rather than trying to recover the data myself
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<soundnfury>
because I don't tend to have much luck with Hardware
<Bornholio>
tends to be a lot of money for that :(
<soundnfury>
it's only O(£100) isn't it?
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<Bornholio>
generally found from 150-800USD for data recovery. ALway push people to backup instead of pay that fee once.
<Bornholio>
always
<soundnfury>
hmm just looked one up and yeah more like 250-600GBP
<soundnfury>
the thing is, _most_ of my actually-valuable data is "backed-up" because it's repos that have been pushed to github
<soundnfury>
which is why I've never really bothered with backups for the rest
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<Bornholio>
the platter swap places are the most expensive but most likely to get it right.
<soundnfury>
yeah
<ku5anagi>
NathanKell|WORK, that worked. No more error log spam and everything so far seems to work nice.
<ku5anagi>
By the way how far along is the compatibility with the mods beside the dependencies (like suggested mods)? Is there a place/document where this is tracked?
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<NathanKell|WORK>
I don't know, sorry
<NathanKell|WORK>
just trying to get core stuff working
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap-Eclipse will have a better idea of other stuff I think
<ku5anagi>
No problem. I was just wondering. This is still unreleased after all.
<Pap-Eclipse>
ku5anagi: there is no updates to the RO compatibility and nothing that I know people are working on. Every mod that has RO configs (that I know of) is properly placed in the tree, but might not have costs
<leudaimon>
o/ Pap-Eclipse
<Pap-Eclipse>
o/ leudaimon
<leudaimon>
I read something about lunar biomes earlier... Do I have to reinstall RSS already, or is this in progress?
<ku5anagi>
Pap-Eclipse, thank you.
Pap-Eclipse is now known as Pap-DrivingHomeStill
<leudaimon>
you know I envy you guys who managed to see the Eclipse...
<Bornholio>
currently scaled is 27 lunar biomes, pap reduced it. DAMN CLOUDS!
<Pap-DrivingHomeStill>
leudaimon: I finished the map update. I want to give the config another pass when I'm not half asleep. Should be ready tomorrow.
<leudaimon>
cool
<leudaimon>
I'll not be going to the moon for quite some time, so no hurry
<Pap-DrivingHomeStill>
leudaimon: did you see my totality picture from before?
<leudaimon>
yep! that was awesome!
<NathanKell|WORK>
^
<Pap-DrivingHomeStill>
I saw we all plan a meet up on April 8th,2024 for the next one. It is worth it.