<xShadowx> "soviets never really existed" *shows a soviet rocket in orbit*
<awang> wat
<xShadowx> makin a joke
<soundnfury> NathanKell: ewww, someone got союз all over my loading screen
<soundnfury> (also: now testing first prototype of maintenance window. Prepare for angry screaming at screen)
<NathanKell> \o/
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<Pap> o/
<soundnfury> ø
<NathanKell> yo
<Pap> I've been gone all day, any updates on anything? Where we at, what needs doing?
<NathanKell> I got maintenance working well last night, I conned^H^H^H^H^Hpersuaded soundnfury to do some GUI work for it.
<NathanKell> I need the logs showing the circular ECMs to debug that
<Pap> Oh awesome
<Pap> Ah, ok let me get them
<soundnfury> NathanKell: I don't believe it, first test and it actually mostly works
<NathanKell> \o/
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7PAc
<github> RP-0/Developmental 2dbcf3f NathanKell: Make node unlock contract autoaccept
<NathanKell> Pap: Also, we can add any “starting tips” we want to the completion message of that contract
<NathanKell> because it’ll be the first message in the messagesystem icon
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<Pap> Ah, that is a good idea
<leudaimon> \o
<soundnfury> (the day/month/year buttons wörk, but selecting any tab other than Summary doesn't display anything yet)
<leudaimon> is cost/day relevant? (coming in the middle of the talk, sorry if that has been discussed already)
<Pap> How do we manage our maintenance? Or is it just a charge we have to accept?
<ferram4> Alright, here's an interesting question: what is the first serious-production rocket engine to use a bell nozzle?
<leudaimon> is integration related to tooling? the more you tool, the more you have fixed maitenance costs?
<NathanKell> Nope, integration/Pad is your KCT BP/s
<leudaimon> ah ok
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<NathanKell> ferram4: Were the RD-10x cones? If so I would say the S-3.
<NathanKell> Unless there was something early.
<ferram4> I thought the S-3 was a cone and the S-3D had a bell?
<NathanKell> Oh, huh, maybe the early Aerobees?
<NathanKell> Ah could be. The Navahos had cones until Phase IV IIRC
<NathanKell> Maybe Phase V/S-3D
<ferram4> Possibly, but the actual model (not the adapted ones that you use) all seem to be very chunky cones for the Aerobee...
<ferram4> Maybe the AJ-10?
<NathanKell> AJ10 was post-S-3D
<ferram4> I'm trying to get an idea for possible career integration, since I want to lock away bell nozzles until the appropriate time.
<NathanKell> Well, whatever the first bell-nozzle Rocketdyne.
<NathanKell> Did Atlas A have bell or cone?
<ferram4> I think bells.
<NathanKell> That’s S-3 era
<leudaimon> is there any gameplay intention with these costs? the idea is to avoid people to snowball VAB upgrades too early?
<NathanKell> leudaimon: Yeah, and to prevent just warping away and ignoring things
<leudaimon> ah cool
<ferram4> Hmm... maybe it was a cone.
<NathanKell> It was six months later than the first Thor.
<NathanKell> So that might have been enough time
<leudaimon> R&D upgrades also increase maitenance?
<soundnfury> ferram4: of course "bell" is underconstrained. Have US bells always been method-of-characteristics / truncated Rao optimum, or did they initially use something simpler?
<NathanKell> leudaimon: yep
<soundnfury> (e.g. paraboloid of revolution)
<NathanKell> soundnfury: Why is research teams coming up zero?
<ferram4> soundnfury, I think they've traditionally used the truncated Rao. Rao's original paper was 58 and then the graphical method was 60, so it's incredibly early.
<soundnfury> NathanKell: because I had to change RP0KCTBinder and for some reason when I build I'm not getting a new dll
<soundnfury> ferram4: ok, fairy nuff
<NathanKell> soundnfury: Ah. Update refs so it has a binding to KCT?
<NathanKell> wait, linux
<NathanKell> nm
<NathanKell> dunno how you do that on your end
<NathanKell> Push your cs change and I’ll build you one
<ferram4> And technically... I don't think this is actually a paraboloid. Unless a bezier curve is a paraboloid... I suppose it is in parametric terms, but it's not what I was thinking of originally.
<ferram4> Because it's actually defined in the paper that it should be drawn as a bezier curve.
<ferram4> Okay, aAtlas B definitely used bells.
<ferram4> Even for the 89s
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<NathanKell> Argh. Someone remind me how to port AddToPostDrawQueue to 1.2?
<NathanKell> err, 1.1 I guess
<leudaimon> are the current dev branches playable for testing?
<NathanKell> nm, found
<NathanKell> leudaimon: Yes
<leudaimon> cool, I'll take a peek into all this new stuff
<NathanKell> leudaimon: I’m about to add Training for kerbals. I *think* that’s the last major change.
<leudaimon> ok, I'll wait then ;)
<Pap> Woah, what happened to all my upgrade points?
<leudaimon> about you mean today?
<leudaimon> otherwise I'll look how things are without it anyway :)
<soundnfury> NathanKell: it's ok, managed to build it now. (Had to open it as a separate solution, break it, fix it, open it again, and build.)
<NathanKell> I mean today yes. But you should start playing, and just not fly any crew today (you likely won’t have time to get there)
<soundnfury> (I don't like .NET very much, can you tell?)
<NathanKell> soundnfury: Ah.
<NathanKell> Weird.
<leudaimon> ah ok!
<NathanKell> Well, not weird that you don’t like .NET :P
<leudaimon> I'll get it then
<awang> Wonder what KSP in Java would be like...
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<smartdummies> ferram4: According to the History of Liquid Propellent Rocket Engines, Rocketdyne studied bell nozzels in 1958 and then incorporated them by 1960.
<smartdummies> https://books.google.com/books?id=s1C9Oo2I4VYC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=what+rocket+engine+first+used+a+bell+nozzle?&source=bl&ots=eP07O5hqEX&sig=gNNQxe9aRUqLG4qP0OExwsj7Jvs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ_vno8cjVAhXhx4MKHRjuCwg4ChDoAQgvMAE#v=onepage&q=what%20rocket%20engine%20first%20used%20a%20bell%20nozzle%3F&f=false
<Pap> NathanKell: There is no Errors spitting in my log, but they flash on the top of my screen (I have debug mode on) Where else would I find them?
<soundnfury> awang: slow and broken. (Even more so than it already is ;)
<NathanKell> Pap: KSP.log should have them...
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<Pap> NathanKell: ^^^
<NathanKell> thanks
<NathanKell> I’ll fix the avionics one, the other one is on you :]
<Pap> OK, found the log, I'll HAstebin it for you
<soundnfury> NathanKell: works now, research is no longer zero :)
<NathanKell> \o/
<Pap> I'll look at the SoilMoisture one, but that is not something we set, maybe an old holdover?
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<NathanKell> Pap: Ah, my circular ref checking is wrong
<egg|nomz|egg> !seen egg
<Qboid> egg|nomz|egg: I last saw egg on [08.08.2017 18:18:46] in #kspacademia saying: "NomalRaptor: in the cat album :-p"
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<NathanKell> Pap: Get the latest RF dll
<NathanKell> leudaimon you too
<NathanKell> Pap: Note that my checking isn’t wrong. It *is* circular. The problem is sometimes that’s intended and sometimes that’s a sign of a malformed ECM.
<NathanKell> Pap: Consider the following: A depends on B and C. B depends on D. C depends on D.
<leudaimon> NathanKell, how latest? I got one in the weekend
<NathanKell> That is not circular (it terminates) but it still should count D only once.
<NathanKell> leudaimon: Like, this second.
<NathanKell> Like I was just saying, I fixed a bug :P
<leudaimon> ah, ok :]
<leudaimon> btw, the new loading screens are nice!
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<NathanKell> :)
<Pap> leudaimon: If you have some nice screens, send tgem over to be included
<egg|zzz|egg> NathanKell: when do you plan on releasing that new version of RSS (so I can check it works with principia чебышёв before cutting that)?
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<leudaimon> I'll keep that in mind while I play ;)
<smartdummies> Pap: I did get the permissions changed on my antenna document so it can be viewed now.
<leudaimon> NathanKell, I lost the link for the RF dll
<leudaimon> thanks!
<Pap> Nice smartdummies
<NathanKell> Pap: Do you have a different pic of Apollo 8? It’s making me twitch because the CSM rear looks totally unlike the real one :]
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7Ppi
<github> RP-0/Developmental 9cd79a4 NathanKell: Loading screen: S-II sep/ignition
<soundnfury> NathanKell: sounds like you need a topological sort
<NathanKell> soundnfury: Yes.
<NathanKell> Yeah, I need to detect cycles, but also terminate on visited nodes.
<NathanKell> For now we’ll just silently reject cycles
<Qboid> [9deb5] title: Add ConfigNodeUtils, a fn for variable replacement, and a fn to add/replace in a dictionary by magico13 | Additions: 68 | Deletions: 5 | https://github.com/magico13/MagiCore/commit/9deb52b9cb437ff59f4fe395feed50f4dc9613b3
<NathanKell> Shouldn’t it just always be dict[key] = value ?
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<leudaimon> how do I have to set funds penalties? also *5?
<NathanKell> Nope
<NathanKell> just 1x
<leudaimon> ok
<xShadowx> NathanKell: dict[key] = x; i dont think adds, only replace?
<NathanKell> xShadowx: Nope, it adds
<NathanKell> It most definitely adds
<xShadowx> o.O
<xShadowx> then someone is as smart as me :P
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* xShadowx learns many things in ksp channels
<soundnfury> (not Прогресс though)
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<leudaimon> only 4 upgrade points at start now?
<NathanKell> Should be only 3.
<Pap> leudaimon: Unfair, I only got 3
<leudaimon> the 4th gets unlocked automatically
<leudaimon> starting parts
<NathanKell> No, there should be 2, then that node
<NathanKell> that’s why I said 3
<Pap> Oh, I had 3 then that node as well
<NathanKell> dang
<NathanKell> did I screw up?
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<Pap> No takebacks
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<SpecimenSpiff> o/
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<SpecimenSpiff> NathanKell, question/thoughts on the tooling stuff: if I do one of your spaceplanes with a dozen or so clipped wing surfaces, tanks, etc, does that get ridiculuosly expensive? and what happens when I land and recover, is that expense recovered or lost?
<NathanKell> OH
<NathanKell> start node itself counts
<NathanKell> the KCT line is `StartingPoints = 2,500,5000`
<NathanKell> so it then adds 2.
<NathanKell> Well, 4 is fine I guess.
<NathanKell> SpecimenSpiff: Heh. That’s a great point. I don’t actually have tooling for wings yet, so that’s not such a biggie. For tanks, most of them on a small spaceplane would be small, so not too horrid. On a big one...well, IMO working as designed, Shuttle was rediculously expensive
<leudaimon> the BP/s rate has been very reduced, right?
<NathanKell> And you should always KCT-recover (i.e. in flight, click KCT button, then SPH, then recover) and then you don’t have to rebuild
<NathanKell> leudaimon: Yeah, it has a similar sliding scale as research does.
<leudaimon> ok
<NathanKell> Wait what the heck
<NathanKell> some of my changes got lost
<leudaimon> 0.075 bp/s looks scary
<NathanKell> Ah, whew, not lost
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<NathanKell> Ah, but the research rate thing is screwed
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<SpecimenSpiff> NathanKell, maybe implement a little bit of logic, if it doesnt have fuel in it, so it's just fuselage shaping, massively reduce the cost
<SpecimenSpiff> or not "no fuel" but "no tank defined"
<NathanKell> That’s what Structural Parts are for
<NathanKell> There’s a procedural structural part
<NathanKell> and yes, its tooling is cheap
<Pap> NathanKell: Does VAB Level affect any costs or build times?
<SpecimenSpiff> cool. and does the structural part have a tech progression, eg steel-aluminum-composite-carbon composite?
<leudaimon> that's the first time I noticed Taerobee's aerobee fins, and they are very expensive compared to a similar procedural B9 one
<NathanKell> Pap: It affects maintenance costs, and the ability to have more build rates (and by doing so, get more bang for your buck with upgrades)
<NathanKell> SpecimenSpiff: Not yet. Could easily now with PARTUPGRADEs.
<leudaimon> oh, who was the saint that changed launch clump pumps to be enabled by default?
<NathanKell> blowfish
<smartdummies> will level 1 VAB/SPH and level 1 runway/lp incur maintenance costs? or can I compeletly disable my dust collect.. er SPH?
<awang> "completely disable"
<awang> I found that weirdly funny
<smartdummies> Jeb appreciates me not trying to use it. I have been able to get a plane launched exactly once.
<leudaimon> building upgrade costs are very different now...
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7Xee
<github> RP-0/Developmental b43b7a6 NathanKell: Remove `Apollo 8` screen pending an SM that doesn't look like a Saturn stage. :]
<NathanKell> leudaimon: They’re somewhere close to 5x what they were
<NathanKell> smartdummies: Level 1 SPH doesn’t cost much at all, just a few hundred a year IIRC
<Pap> Hello all who are testing. Please use this to submit your launch costs so we can fine tune them and the contract payouts! https://goo.gl/forms/6lGTmGjbLGs2EQ7G3
<blowfish> NathanKell
<NathanKell> [18:18] <leudaimon> oh, who was the saint that changed launch clump pumps to be enabled by default?
<NathanKell> [18:19] <@NathanKell> blowfish
<leudaimon> ah ok... I hadn't played with the values in the new tech tree, with more R&D and launch pad levels, probably why these look relatively cheaper
<blowfish> ah :)
<Pap> !tell Born* Please use this to report all craft so we can fine tune all of the costs and payouts: https://goo.gl/forms/6lGTmGjbLGs2EQ7G3
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap> !tell Maxs* Please use this to report all craft so we can fine tune all of the costs and payouts: https://goo.gl/forms/6lGTmGjbLGs2EQ7G3
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7Xef
<github> RP-0/Developmental 715919f NathanKell: Tweak node unlock rate to not shoot past 1.5/pt
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<leudaimon> no need for WAC, bumper and this stuff you might have tested already, right?
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<Pap> Yeah, no need, I am launching all that now
<leudaimon> ok
<leudaimon> I guess build time will be the main reason to tool everything
<Pap> No, I think it is cost
<NathanKell> ^
<NathanKell> I mean, cost drives build time
<NathanKell> but holy crap untooled parts can be expensive
<leudaimon> yeah, but even if you could be willing to use the untooled part once, tripling the build time of the whole rocket is very bad
<SpecimenSpiff> what is the process for testing this? lots of repos to pull I imagine, but which ones?
<NathanKell> RO and RP-0 dev branches
<NathanKell> And the new RF dll
<NathanKell> That’s...it, really
<SpecimenSpiff> new rf dll is obtained where? and is tree.yml compiled?
<Pap> tree.tml never needs to be compiled again :)
<Pap> s/tml/yml
<SpecimenSpiff> O\
<Qboid> Pap meant to say: tree.yml never needs to be compiled again :)
<blowfish> RF does not keep DLLs in the repo
<SpecimenSpiff> does someone have it, or do I need to compile myself?
<SpecimenSpiff> I dont currently have unity, kspparttools, etc, so id rather not
<Pap> NK has it on his dropbox, let me get the link
<Pap> All you need is the RF.dll from there
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<ferram4> I have working generation of nozzle profiles and calculation of divergence losses \o/
<NathanKell> Woot!
<ferram4> Also, there is barely reason for an 80% bell nozzle on a high-ratio nozzle, let alone anything higher
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<NathanKell> heh
<NathanKell> And I’ve got FlightSchool compiling, so \o/
<xShadowx> flightschool?o.o
<xShadowx> game?
<blowfish> ferram4: 80% of what?
<SpecimenSpiff> I love these loading screens
<ferram4> blowfish, equivalent area 15 deg cone
<Pap> SpecimenSpiff: Right! It totally adds a ton to the game
<Pap> Damn, You really have to progress through the sounding rocket era now with these new tank masses. a WAC Corporal will definitely NOT get you to the Karman Line. I used a WAC-XASR to get there, but will still be short of Space.
<SpecimenSpiff> what is the recommended difficulty for testing?
<leudaimon> is it staging that raises rollout cost early on? My unboosted WAC had less than 1, WAC-corporal has 47
<NathanKell> Pap: It will, actually. Just barely. :D No chute tho.
<NathanKell> If you overburn ~5-6s
<NathanKell> SpecimenSpiff: Moderate, maybe? and set Fund Gain to 5x whatever you pick.
<SpecimenSpiff> ouch, buying kct upgrade poitns increased?
<SpecimenSpiff> gah, no unlocked parts to start with?
<SpecimenSpiff> is that intended?
<leudaimon> Pap, just managed karman line with the WAC-Corporal, with 86 utilization and no parachute (made it to 108km)
<NathanKell> leudaimon how long a burn time?
<leudaimon> 50.4s
<NathanKell> huh
<NathanKell> ok
<NathanKell> Tank-I-HP yes?
<leudaimon> yep
<NathanKell> ok
<leudaimon> slight starting pitch, less than 5 degrees I think
<leudaimon> do you want delta-v stats?
<leudaimon> the nose cone is a Tank-I
<SpecimenSpiff> ouch, I dont even have the funds to buy tooling for my first tank
<soundnfury> How do I iterate through a dictionary without creating garbage?
<SpecimenSpiff> this is nasty
<soundnfury> (it's a dict<string, double>)
<leudaimon> SpecimenSpiff, did you set contract payout at 5x?
<leudaimon> you should have plenty of funds to tool a WAC tank, it 1k
<leudaimon> s/it/it's
<Qboid> leudaimon meant to say: you should have plenty of funds to tool a WAC tank, it's 1k
<smartdummies> soundfury: keys or values? you can do a foreach(var x in dict.Keys) or foreach(var x in dict.Values)
<soundnfury> smartdummies: and that won't create garbage? it's only generating the KeyValuePair that does?
<NathanKell> leudaimon: Nah, that’s fine. 108km sounds about right.
<egg> !wpn NathanKell
* Qboid gives NathanKell a light-emitting clowder
<NathanKell> It’s probably 50-70kg lighter than the real one
<NathanKell> o/ egg
<egg> NathanKell: did you answer my question while I got disconnected?
<NathanKell> egg: What question?
<SpecimenSpiff> I set the payout to 5x yes. but then I had to unlock the proc tank, sounding rocket core, aerobee, wing, and launch clamp
<SpecimenSpiff> and there went my funds
<NathanKell> SpecimenSpiff: They all should have cost 1 fund each
<NathanKell> Do you not have the RF dll?
<SpecimenSpiff> or wait, im looking at wrong counter
<NathanKell> oh
<NathanKell> ok
<SpecimenSpiff> i thought I had 347 left, thats what it's going to cost
<egg> <egg|zzz|egg> NathanKell: when do you plan on releasing that new version of RSS (so I can check it works with principia чебышёв before cutting that)?
<NathanKell> egg: I believe the KSP-RO/RSS repo is in release condition. However it needs a different set of textures than before. Pap?
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<NathanKell> egg: In Pap’s absence I *think* it’s the Stock Scale RSS Textures that are right. They’re a fork of RSS’s with the new biomes.
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<leudaimon> any reason for me to see two TF R&D engine buttons in the right click menu?
<NathanKell> That sounds like a broken config
<NathanKell> What engine?
<leudaimon> Aerobee
<NathanKell> Ours or Taerobee’s Aerobee?
<NathanKell> (the simple gray one or the correct-looking one)
<SpecimenSpiff> ouch, 30 days for my first sounding rocket
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<NathanKell> o/ Bornholio
<SpecimenSpiff> I did notice that when I unlocked the aerobee, both versions in the part tab unlocked
<Bornholio> pap did a summary of todays testing, all went pretty good
<Qboid> Bornholio: Pap left a message for you in #RO [09.08.2017 01:26:16]: "Please use this to report all craft so we can fine tune all of the costs and payouts: https://goo.gl/forms/6lGTmGjbLGs2EQ7G3"
<SpecimenSpiff> which I liked, but that may not have been deliberate
<NathanKell> that’s deliberate
<Bornholio> I'll add my 20ish craft from today as i have time
<leudaimon> ours
<Pap> AWesome Bornholio !
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<Pap> egg: It is the modified textures, let me get you a link
<SpecimenSpiff> getting the upkeep popup when I warp to build, then warp again for rollout is kind of annoying
<NathanKell> that’s being fixed
<Pap> wow, NathanKell I have no idea what I was doing with that Apollo 8. That is a terrible back end
<NathanKell> Mini S-IVB! :)
<SpecimenSpiff> 37 days a pop for this seems a bit excessive
<NathanKell> Remember this is before upgrades :P
<SpecimenSpiff> and yeah, im going to have to blow years before I get any at this rate
<SpecimenSpiff> first one, build error. second one, engine failure...
<SpecimenSpiff> thats nearly 3 months gone already
<Pap> Yep SpecimenSpiff There is a reason no one got to orbit until 1957
<leudaimon> 1222 days for the Launch pad upgrade?!
<Pap> That seems a bit long ^^^
<NathanKell> Yeahbut what’s the BP/sec?
<leudaimon> 0
<leudaimon> oops
<leudaimon> 0.1625
<NathanKell> heh
<NathanKell> ok
<NathanKell> OH
<NathanKell> right.
<NathanKell> Increased facility costs, didn’t decrease facility build times
<Pap> Are we going to have enough $ to buy enough upgrade points to buy enough BP and Research?
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<Bornholio> I only bought VAB build rate on Hard/500% reward just putting science node points into research speed
<leudaimon> agathorn is specially mad with me today
<github> RP-0/Developmental c5fdfc4 NathanKell: Update building time for buildings
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7XJO
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<Pap> leudaimon: He was very angry with me as well
<leudaimon> that's almost weird
<Bornholio> keeping 500k to tool and buy engines once i have '56 rocketry, and spending all other monies on buildings
<NathanKell> Bornholio: Btw is this starting with 16 KCT upgrades or 4?
<Bornholio> did you change that? its 16
<Pap> egg|zzz|egg: The textures are uploading
<NathanKell> Yeah, it’s 4 now
<Bornholio> can't keep up with you :P
<Pap> Bornholio: No, the mean, mean man changed it to 4
<NathanKell> Especially to defeat the BornholioRush (tm) :D
<SpecimenSpiff> whee, my tank broke off when it flipped on chute deploy, so just the chutes and nose wafted down from 5km at 1m/sec. time for dinner
<NathanKell> I’m thinking of moving it back to 2 even. Not sure. Depends what y’all think
<NathanKell> Because you get 1 more after your first flight
<NathanKell> maybe 2 or 3
<NathanKell> so that’s already quite a lot
<leudaimon> NathanKell, does the tooling mechanic work so that if you buy a given diameter (say, 1m) larger diameters are cheaper?
<Bornholio> can you reward them in contracts?
<NathanKell> If someone wrote a KCT<->CC binder, yeah
<NathanKell> I don’t think anyone has yet
<Pap> Not as of right now, Bornholio but it is definitely possible to create a plugin
<NathanKell> leudaimon: No. I’m not sure that’s correct anyway...
<Pap> As NathanKell just ninja-ed me to say
<leudaimon> we really get a good number of node upgrades early on, it makes sense to reduce the number in start
<NathanKell> Yeah, I think I’ll drop to 2 then
<Pap> Well, leudaimon is banned from this IRC now
<NathanKell> :D
<leudaimon> :D
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7XJa
<github> RP-0/Developmental 7e963ab NathanKell: Drop starting upgrades to 0 (but 2 node unlocks means 2).
<Bornholio> you really need to figure out how to neuter rush build then, it will be a dominante force of speed
<Pap> Stop encouraging the mad man!
<NathanKell> Bornholio: I’ve forked KCT and am going to do that yes
<leudaimon> it looks like TF is guessing I stretched my WAC, all flights I tried with 60s of burn failed before 30s
<soundnfury> "this time for sure"
<leudaimon> the AJ-27 unlocked in the first rocketry node
<Pap> leudaimon: It did not for me...
<Pap> I only had the XASR unlocked
<leudaimon> what could I have wrong?
<leudaimon> in the tech tree it does not appear, but in the engine gui it does
<Pap> Let me check for errors on our end
<NathanKell> It did not for me either
<Bornholio> is this KSCUpgradeFormula = ([C]^(3/4))*50*[O] slower or faster?
<NathanKell> Faster
<SpecimenSpiff> so my first rocket was capable of karman line, if agathorn had not struck
<Pap> leudaimon: There must be some error, it is for sure in the Basic Rocketry node
<NathanKell> it’s 1/4 as slow as before.
<NathanKell> Cuz the prices went up 4-5x
<SpecimenSpiff> 3rd flight succeeded, reached 115km
<leudaimon> that's weird, it the tech tree it's in the third node, but I can unlock it in the engine gui
<NathanKell> leudaimon can you upload your configcache of the PART ?
<leudaimon> sure... any search I can do to easily find that?
<Pap> leudaimon: AJ10-27
<leudaimon> :]
<NathanKell> Ok, I have a *very* minimal idea for training.
<NathanKell> leudaimon RO-AerobeeSustainer
<Pap> ^^^
<NathanKell> Pap et al: So, in order for KCT to allow you to place a kerbal in a seat, that kerbal must have, as its last Flight in its flight log, type ProficiencyTraining and target (that part)
<NathanKell> It’s nothing like what we want, but it will serve for now
<leudaimon> yeah, definitely something wrong... I can't find it in the file
<NathanKell> Sorry, ROAerobeeSustainer
<NathanKell> I did it from memory and inserted a dash
<leudaimon> yeah, had found it
<soundnfury> go forth and test
<leudaimon> I'm making a pastebin
<Pap> There are no techs set for any of those configs
<Pap> When did you download?
<Pap> Clean install, deleted folders prior to installing?
<soundnfury> and it's 4AM, so I'm going to zzz now.
<Pap> o/ soundnfury
<soundnfury> nn all, cya tomorю
<NathanKell> o/
<Pap> !tell egg* Here are the RSS Textures you need: https://github.com/pap1723/ScaledRSS-Textures/releases/tag/1.3
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell opened pull request #745: Maint ui (Developmental...maintUI) https://git.io/v7XU8
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 3 new commits to Developmental: https://git.io/v7XU4
<github> RP-0/Developmental b1034a1 Edward Cree: Add window to display current Maintenance costs
<github> RP-0/Developmental 362770a Edward Cree: Remove no longer needed MaintenanceHandler popup window
<github> RP-0/Developmental af4c36a NathanKell: Merge pull request #745 from ec429/maintUI...
<NathanKell> soundnfury: Awesome! :)
<leudaimon> Pap, I got both Devs earlier today, when I started playing, and deleted both folders
<egg|zzz|egg> Pap: thanks
<SpecimenSpiff> is there a way to tell after the fact what you paid for tooling?
<leudaimon> I'll redownload and try again
<Pap> NathanKell: I think Payload Fairings are impossibly overpriced
<leudaimon> in a different matter Pap, the XASR-1 took me to 198km with the correct burning time, even though I had a loss of thrust
<NathanKell> Pap: Have you tooled them?
<Pap> NathanKell: I have a simple V-2 Rocket that costs 379 funds. After I add payload side fairings to it, the cost jumps up to 3122
<Pap> Even without toolign that seems outrageous as it is a VERY small payload fairing
<Bornholio> tool the base and fairings
<Pap> I tooled the base
<NathanKell> Pap: And the sides?
<NathanKell> Pap: If so detach a part and reattach. That will force an update.
<SpecimenSpiff> The new starter rocket. chutes seem to be pointless, it breaks up in the atmo, but it reaches karman line as first launch if it all works: http://imgur.com/a/J21s1
<Bornholio> chutes to recover the goo
<Pap> NK, there was some error with the Procedural Payload getting the right size. I left and came back in and now it is reasonable
<SpecimenSpiff> ideally, but I cant make them work, on the karman line launch everything but the chutes and core broke off long before the chutes deployed
<NathanKell> Pap: cool
<SpecimenSpiff> im sure with enouhg effort I could fix that
<Bornholio> I use the small chute cone as a nose cone that i don't have to tool :P
<NathanKell> >.>
<NathanKell> :D
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<SpecimenSpiff> I so wish the r&d scene would show the nodes that currently being researched
<Bornholio> no kidding
<Bornholio> probably biggest pain point of KCT is that
<NathanKell> Yep. I should be able to fix that I think
<Bornholio> is he a devil or is he a hero?
<Bornholio> an
<SpecimenSpiff> hm, it wont let me unlock early rocketry, but it wont say why
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<Bornholio> you need to go to a low cost purchase node and hover
<SpecimenSpiff> ah, had to click back and forth
<Bornholio> then go back
<SpecimenSpiff> so there are no depedency lines
<leudaimon> things are getting borked here... now the loading scenes are back to stock :/
<Bornholio> pap where do i see the total bp cost of craft at?
<Pap> Bornholio: I believe that is hidden
<Pap> Could do some math on it though
<Bornholio> nah, just wondering if i was missing it
<Pap> Build Time / Build Points
<SpecimenSpiff> still cant unlock early rockettry or find out why, and it seems to be empty
<SpecimenSpiff> Image of the buggy tech tree http://imgur.com/a/rkJMa
<leudaimon> Pap, NathanKell I reinstalled RO/RP-0 from redownloaded zips, still have the AJ10-27 available...
<NathanKell> Ah, so the issue is it’s not just available for purchase, it says it’s unlocked?
<NathanKell> or is it just available to purchase the config?
<leudaimon> it's available to purchase the config in the engine gui
<NathanKell> ok
<leudaimon> it shows correctly in the tech tree
<NathanKell> And your configcache showed no techrequire right?
<NathanKell> You have only one ModuleManager dll yes?
<NathanKell> Wait
<NathanKell> are you on RO/dev or RO/master ?
<leudaimon> RO/dev
<NathanKell> uh.
<NathanKell> Ok...
<NathanKell> And search for ModuleManager*.dll in GameData
<NathanKell> and report all files found
<leudaimon> the wildcard doesn't work in ubuntu (never noticed that) but the only dll found is the one in the root of gamedata, 2.7.6
<Pap> Hmmmmm... Leudaimon that is awfully weird. Can you go into your RP-0 folder / tree
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<leudaimon> sure, what do I have to look for?
<Pap> SpecimenSpiff: you are running into a strange bug from KCT that only affects that node. When the first rocketry tech unlocks, you will then be able to unlock that as normal.
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<Pap> Can you screenshot the files in there?
<leudaimon> Pap, http://imgur.com/SwXeeCd
<ferram4> ...alright, let's see if I can get an answer for nozzle friction efficiency
<Pap> In TREE-Engines, can you open it up? Pastebin the first 10 or so lines?
<leudaimon> Pap ^
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<leudaimon> Pap, I looked at the MM call in the first line... shouldn't RealismOverhaulEngines be a folder in Gamedata?
<Bornholio> pap worth putting very similar rockets in the database, i have 10 slightly different sounding rockets with almost no tooling costs among them?
<Pap> born, probably not
<Pap> leudaimon: Is it possible (someone call me crazy) that Linux is causing some issue?
<leudaimon> no idea...
<Pap> It jsut doesn't make any sense as it is working correctly here and elsewhere
<leudaimon> linux is more sensitive to file names in general... case-sensitive and things like that
<leudaimon> besides that, I have no idea how differently KSP works differently in linux vs. windows
<leudaimon> well, it's getting late here... got to go... if you find out the issue, please let me know
<Bornholio> pap if you care i summarized my testing today on my testing thread http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/164144-rorp-0-development-branch-testing/#comment-3143713 off to load dev testing aug 9
<leudaimon> besides, tomorrow I can try another row of reinstalling stuff
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<Pap> NathanKell|COOKNOMZ: Is 21,000 funds correct for tooling a 1.5m x 100 mm Service Module Tank?
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<blowfish> Rokker: plane equivalent of a tumor?
<Rokker> blowfish: it's just a skin tag
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<Pap> Off to bed, goodnight all
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<NathanKell|COOKNOMZ> nick NathanKell
<NathanKell|COOKNOMZ> o/
<NathanKell|COOKNOMZ> Pap|Sleep that seems excessive
<NathanKell|COOKNOMZ> !tell Pap* that seems excessive.
<Qboid> NathanKell|COOKNOMZ: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap|Sleep> I thought so as well
<Qboid> Pap|Sleep: NathanKell|COOKNOMZ left a message for you in #RO [09.08.2017 05:01:52]: "that seems excessive."
<Pap|Sleep> As I stretched it vertically, it barely got any more expensive. I went all the way up to 5m tall and it only added a small amount to the tooling cost
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<NathanKell> Pap|Sleep: Yeah, diameter is way more important than length
<NathanKell> But once you pay that diameter cost, all other lengths become cheap
<NathanKell> Pap|Sleep: However, sounds like the multiplier is rather high, 21 mil is like a quarter of the entire Mercury tooling
<NathanKell> On the plus side, I think I may have FlightSchool working, in principle.
<NathanKell> Let’s see
<NathanKell> hahano
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<NathanKell> YES! Got it adding to log
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<xShadowx> o.O
<NathanKell> Add to the flight log on completing a training course, xShadowx
<xShadowx> grats :)
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<NathanKell> ferram4: You got any idea how I can prevent people using the X-1 cockpit at orbital velocity?
<NathanKell> Best I can come up with is preventing it ever getting fully occluded with a heatshield
<ferram4> Yeah, parts really shouldn't ever be COMPLETELY occluded.
<NathanKell> Well, PF’s cubes are still borked so probes have no aeroshells
<NathanKell> but then, weren’t there some real reentry plans that relied on huge shields rather than aeroshells?
<ferram4> Well, if you have a large enough heat shield, you can reduce all the heating to the probe to radiation.
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7XYk
<github> RP-0/Developmental f5172d7 NathanKell: Fix tooltip for inactive kerbals, add ModuleUnpressurizedCockpit
<ferram4> So, I have friction efficiency going, but I do not like the results.
<NathanKell> ah?
<ferram4> Because while it gives me extremely plausible results for the LR-79, it also tells me that the LR-105 is worse in all respects than the LR-79. Even in space.
<ferram4> For the LR-79 it overperofrms by a flat 3s across the board. For the LR-105 somehow it can't even break 290s vac.
<NathanKell> :\
<ferram4> So I'm oversetimating something.
<ferram4> Or perhaps assuming a flat 0.003 skin friction is just too much.
<blowfish> Hmm, found a different source that gives 300s for the vacuum Isp of the X-405H
<NathanKell> blowfish: b143whatever said about that, IIRC
<NathanKell> but I trust Ed Kyle better, given b’s issues
<NathanKell> Maybe it started at ~300 and then rose as it neared flight readiness?
<blowfish> yeah, I found them both
<blowfish> that link might not work, Google Books tends to be inconsistent about what pages it'll actually show you
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<blowfish> I think that link will work
<NathanKell> I have been considering purchasing that book tbh, it’s super useful.
<blowfish> Did I miss anything after <NathanKell>: Maybe it started at ~300 and then rose as it neared flight readiness
<NathanKell> Although I have, IIRC, occasionally had cause to question it
<NathanKell> blowfish you did not
<blowfish> changes over the development history might be it
<blowfish> I'd hazard guess everything we have today is secondary or even tertiary, usually impossible to tell where the info actually came from originally
<NathanKell> Yeah, most is secondary at the least
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7XsT
<github> RP-0/Developmental d12843c NathanKell: Add stripped down FlightSchool to RP-0. NON-FUNCTIONAL.
<NathanKell> !tell soundnfury I *love* the UI! In fact I love it so much I hooked FlightSchool into it!
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> !tell soundnfury thanks so much!!! <3
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<soundnfury> NathanKell|AWAY: ^_^
<Qboid> soundnfury: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [09.08.2017 07:12:40]: "I *love* the UI! In fact I love it so much I hooked FlightSchool into it!"
<Qboid> soundnfury: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [09.08.2017 07:12:47]: "thanks so much!!! <3"
<Hypergolic_Skunk> o/ would someone mind testing something for me? namely, to put a comsat into Venus orbit (6800km, circular) with a Communotron HG-55, timwarp for an orbit or so, and see if the antenna heats up?
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<soundnfury> NathanKell|AWAY: btw why did your last commit delete GameData/RP-0/Plugins/RP0KCTBinder.dll?
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<Maxsimal> o/
<Qboid> Maxsimal: Pap left a message for you in #RO [09.08.2017 01:26:22]: "Please use this to report all craft so we can fine tune all of the costs and payouts: https://goo.gl/forms/6lGTmGjbLGs2EQ7G3"
<Maxsimal> !tell Pap: Will do, looks good. I'm going on vacation pretty shortly unfortunately so I won't get time to play much till after
<Qboid> Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Pap> o/
<Pap> Maxsimal: Vacations need to be cleared with the RP-0 management at least 2 weeks in advnace :)
<Maxsimal> Pap: IRC ate the message :P Anyway how's it going?
<Pap> Maxsimal: it is going well, I think we are moving in the right direction, but I think it is going to take weeks of dedicated play-time to iron out
<Maxsimal> Pap: Yeah that's what I'd expect. We also need to be mindful of not changing things too often while playtesting happening so we don't have too disjointed data.
<Pap> Yes, I agree. We basically need to only test the small pieces that are completed right now. Tooling and Rollout costs. The rest of it (testing the whole early game) is not ready yet as things keep getting added
<Maxsimal> Pap: Yup, sounds good. Well, I'm glad you expect we'll still be playtesting for a while after I get back, I really want to be part of it :)
<Pap> Yeah, NathanKell will have final say since he understands the exact vision he is going for, but it looks like to me that it will take some time to iron out the details
<Maxsimal> https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/SOFIA/index.html Wouldn't this be an awesome plane mission btw?
<Pap> ^^^ No such thing as an awesome plane mission ;)
<Pap> That does look really cool though
<Maxsimal> But I don't think I will have new plane contracts set up anytime too soon - I'll playtest instead and get them in later, not like I'll be making anything save-breaking with them
<Maxsimal> I looked to see if I could find that 747 and instead found this pintrest of someone who does squished airplane art - good reminder that no matter how niche your hobby is, someone else's can always be more niche
<Pap> lol
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<awang> If I'm keeping KSP in a git repo
<awang> What files (besides the log files) can I ignore?
<awang> For example, I see PartDatabase.cfg change a lot
<awang> Maybe the ModuleManager cache files? I guess in theory versioning the cache could work since it'd only change when mods change, but it appears MM doesn't like that
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<borntosleep> I would only git the gamedata folder
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<Bornholio> MM cache will build each time any part changes so you want to exclude those
<Bornholio> plus some things like MJ might want to exclude since it adds lots of per craft settings files
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<awang> Bornholio: versioning the rest is nice in the rare occasion you want to check out a previous version. Not that happens much, but hey, space is cheap
<awang> Does MM check for changes by checking contents or modification dates?
<awang> Didn't think about the MJ settings files
<Bornholio> not sure how MM does it change checking, but if any part config is added or changes or removed it rebuilds the whole thing
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<xShadowx> awang: MM hash checks the file i think
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v714z
<github> RP-0/Developmental dbf892b NathanKell: I borked it, sorry, removed by mistake.
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<Bornholio_> borked what!
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* Hypergolic_Skunk flogs Pap
<Pap> I deserve no flogging
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ahem?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> "^^^ No such thing as an awesome plane mission ;)"
* Hypergolic_Skunk flogs harder
<Pap> lol, that sounds like something I would say
<Hypergolic_Skunk> aaaanyway..
<Hypergolic_Skunk> does either one of you, Pap and Bornholio, have the option to quickly put something into a certain orbit around Venus? I don't want you wasting your time on this, I'd just like to know whether Venus is borked, or my antenna, or just my install :P
<Bornholio> in 5 min i can
<Hypergolic_Skunk> \o/ take your time
<Pap> I am recovering from a vigorous flogging, so will be unable to help
<Bornholio> with the turn radius of an sr-71 i will get this plane home :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I heard being a passenger on one of my planes has certain 'healing' effects :p
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> Bornholio: !! I found that out the hard way, too!
<Hypergolic_Skunk> 'oh I just flew 300 miles north, let's quickly turnaround...'
<Hypergolic_Skunk> 100 miles on... 'yeah, slowly coming around...'
<Bornholio> yeah and no rocket fuel for the way back
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Bornholio: a picturrrrr of your planey-plane is certainly appreciated :P
<Bornholio> http://i.imgur.com/YgiepW5.png as it struggles back to KSC, cause i want to recover it to rapid fire some sonics
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah! I had misread.. .thought you had built an actual SR-71 ^
<Bornholio> only makes 735m/s at 25km so it won's get quite there, lol it turns like one though
<Hypergolic_Skunk> good luck with the landing!
<Bornholio> thats what parachutes are for. cause that landing strip is god awful
<Hypergolic_Skunk> :D
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<Bornholio> one real reason we need 1.3 sooner than later
<Hypergolic_Skunk> in the meanwhile, there's Kerbal Konstructs. that'll allow you to place your own un-borked runway to any scale. and Real KSC even comes with the Space Shuttle Landing Facility. only problem is: you're probably testing stuff? so you probably don't want any strictly non-necessary mods :)
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<Bornholio> yes, i've pared away most everything
<Bornholio> okay landed. out to the catbox (my sandbox save :P)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> :)
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<Bornholio> on the side note charles moore one of my four pilots found that trip a ton of fun and added three years to his contract :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> :D
<Hypergolic_Skunk> okay, so what happened in my install is that I had three comsats in a circular 6800km orbit around Venus. after the capture burn came the phasing .. .phase. the camera stayed with the comsat, and during time-warp the two Communotron HG-55 started heating up, eventually exploding
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I did not see any thermal problems with the rest of the craft
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<Bornholio> k
<Hypergolic_Skunk> those antennae even say 'suitable for missions to Venus, and - with some care - to Mars', so I'd hope they could resist the vacuum of near-Venus space :p
<Bornholio> do you have any cryofuels on it? Lox etc.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> nope
<Hypergolic_Skunk> very simple comsat: the probe core that can do 0.6mt, two solar panels, four quad-RCS thrusters, all the Cavea-B I could fit into the probe core, two Comm-32 omni, and two HG-55 dish antennae
<Hypergolic_Skunk> (extendable, but not retractable solar panels)
<Bornholio> rt is messing with me :P, cannot extend antennas
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah :D
<Bornholio> what timewarp level max
<Hypergolic_Skunk> err, sorry not sure.. an orbit took maybe a minute?
<Bornholio> low orbit or high, geosynchronous venus orbit lol
<Hypergolic_Skunk> 6800km :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> does Venus rotate at all?
<Bornholio> longerday than its solar year IIRC
<Pap> Bornholio: Do you have any details on the Cosmic Ray Science?
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<Bornholio> yes but too much, what more detail do you need
<Pap> Hmmmm, good question. Years they should unlock, what they look like, descriptions of the science for the parts
<Bornholio> at max TW x10000 i get and temp oscillation between 305k and 240k no real overheat, max temps of 572Int and 657k skin
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> ok :) thank you, Bornholio !
<Bornholio> checking high timewarp from space center
<Hypergolic_Skunk> does it even calculate such physics from there?
<Bornholio> it will generally go somewhat divergent in this case started at 18k yeah no problem with mine atleast
<Bornholio> what DRE do you have currently?
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<Bornholio> pap after i get lunch for the boy i'll add some detail to that list
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> which file will tell me the version? 'DeadlyReentry.version' only tells me which version it is for .. KSP 1.2.2
<Pap> Thansk Bornholio I am deep in the rabbit hole of these experiments, Mass Spectrometry, Imaging, etc
<NathanKell|AWAY> Hypergolic_Skunk make sure you’re on RO/dev - I thought the temps got fixed.
<NathanKell|AWAY> it’s due to antenna temps being too low
<Hypergolic_Skunk> NathanKell|AWAY: that's probably it. my install is like 3 weeks old.
<NathanKell|AWAY> if you’re on release RO, they’re borked
<Hypergolic_Skunk> just wanted to make sure this isn't something that carried over :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> or whether it's a thing that only happens to poor old me :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk> oh actually, let me check the temp config!
<NathanKell|AWAY> it was fixed 1.5 months ago in RO
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<Pap> Just the man I needed to see...NathanKell|AWAY
<Pap> So, as I am working on these science experiments, I looked at the new biome map of the Moon I created. While it is fun, there is not much use to it in terms of gameplay
<Pap> All it really does is to increase the whack-a-mole necessary for full science gain
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<dxdy> what new science experiments are there? I mean if new ones are being added it stands to reason that there ought to be some that enhance gameplay further
<NathanKell|AWAY> Pap: Ah. Hmm.
<Pap> dxdy: That is the goal
<Pap> The idea is a progression based system
<soundnwork> o/
<dxdy> maybe inspiration can be found in the mission proposals that have been there for the moon, there's bound to be lots of interesting stuff in there
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<Pap> dxdy: Yes, but they really only focused on the major areas. They wanted to visit the seas, so they went to the Sea of Tranquility, but, they could have easily picked another sea for the same reason, so should the different "seas" be their own biomes?
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<soundnwork> dxdy: needs moar Clementine
<Pap> Fra Mauro was essentailly just Highlands
<dxdy> mh, bit of a problem is also that the interesting crater features probably aren't in there in the game geometry, things like differnt rims and overhang and so on
<Pap> dxdy: For the new science parts, Let's look at Photography. Essentailly, we have one part right now that gives us full science once returned, the new idea would be to break it up into 4 parts...
<xShadowx> whatd be nice is if sci had sub biomes, so if you goto "sea A" its like normal, but if you next goto "sea B" its 'different' but not 'entirely different' so you get maybe 25% the effect
<Pap> Early Imaging Camera: Transmission of 100%, Max Science of 10% (This is representative of the early photographs sent back by V-2 rockets, Explorer 6 and Luna 3)
<Pap> Improved Imaging Camera: Transmission of 15%, Max Science of 50% (This is representative of the early Corona style satellites that needed to return their data, but the image quality wasn't spectactular)
<Pap> High Resolution Imaging Camera: Transmission of 15%, Max Science of 100% (This is very large and representative of like the KH-9 satellites that still returned their film, but was high resolution)
<Pap> Digital Imaging Camera: Transmission of 100%, Max Science of 100% (Think Hubble, Modern Day Satellites)
<soundnwork> the main problem with the old system is that most science parts (at least fields-and-particles) weigh 1kg, so there's no reason not to stuff everything on one probe.
<soundnwork> I'm in favour of finding reasons to make multiple or repeat missions to a target
<Pap> So the idea is that you have a reason to send additional missions to Photograph images. Same idea is being explored with other science experiments as well
<soundnwork> (e.g., how many Mars probes have we sent by now?)
<Pap> It is also trying to find reasons to send sounding rockets other than you are bored
<soundnwork> Pap: xD xD
<Hypergolic_Skunk> but don't probes like Cassini, Galileo, Rosetta, New Horizons have a whole bunch of instruments?
<Pap> The current proposal has 5 levels of Mass Spectrometry that were used on Sounding Rockets in a progressive nature
<Pap> Yes Hypergolic_Skunk, but those probes are huge (when it comes to probe sizes)
<soundnwork> Hypergolic_Skunk: sure they do. But when we get the data, we conclude "hey, next time let's put a thus-and-such detector that we didn't think of"
<xShadowx> at what point does digital beat out film (returned) for max quality? i know we (humans) re digitized film pics nasa took long ago as digital go better, and film could store more detail back then
<soundnwork> i.e. the main thing the first probe teaches you are 'what are the interesting questions'
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> yeah, that would actually be cool.
<Pap> xShadowx: The first digital cameras were not used in orbit until the 1990's
<leudaimon|work> \o
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<Pap> xShadowx: I lied to you
<Maxsimal> Pap: For testing, are we supposed to be on 300% or 500% funds? With what I've got downloaded, I get 30,000 per upgrade point, makes me wonder
<leudaimon|work> nice discussion... I really like scansat's mechanics, and I think it should be adapted for the photographic experiments
<Pap> First spy satellites to use digital instead of film were the KH-11 launched first (with success) in teh early 1980s
<xShadowx> Pap: right, but not the question ;p i mean like film can store better detail / higher 'res' than what digital could, even after film returns, pictured were digitized, but then later re digitized after we got even higher res digital cameras, im wondering the breaking point where film can no longer store better quality vs say our nice 4k cameras now ;3
<soundnwork> leudaimon|Work: as in get photographic coverage of the entire surface, or as in several generations of scanners?
<Pap> leudaimon|Work: That would be great, but that requires some coding, which as an overall attribute, the project is lacking
<Pap> xShadowx: Ah, yep, that is a good question
<xShadowx> what res digital camera beats out film in quality :)
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<leudaimon|work> soundnwork: Pap both I think
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> eggety, eggety
<leudaimon|work> varying angular resolution, and getting planetary coverage giving increasing science
<dxdy> what would also be cool was if those experiments actually gave progressively more descriptions, like for the better ones getting a bit of stuff about the actual features of that particular crater, although that's probably disproportionate effort for the return (excellent cameras giving pr photos giving funds?)
<xShadowx> scansat gives sci for planet scan coverage ;3
<leudaimon|work> basically, more science the more pixels you have of a body
<soundnwork> leudaimon|Work: could you not do that just by creating a new scan type and scanner part?
<soundnwork> i.e. use the existing scansat code?
<dxdy> what'd also be cool would be some light unlocking stuff, like I think the older football manager games (soccer, not american foodball, and not the international versions) did it, basically, you photograph a cool thing then you get an actual hd image for it or something along these lines
<leudaimon|work> soundnwork: that's what I would expect, but I don't know how scansat code works
<Maxsimal> I think the film vs CCD thing is not so clear as that. Even before CCD's had the same or better resolution as film, CCD's were already better at capturing light than film - so a poorly illuminated subject would be better with CCD already.
<Bornholio> pap my old project http://crop.unl.edu/about/faq.html Have a detector sitting in a box behind my desk
<dxdy> I mean the thing is photography is kinda blant in ksp in that it's just blanket science with no real connection to anything interesting beyond giving the science return
<dxdy> *bland
<xShadowx> was a mod for telescopes to take pics of nebulae
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<xShadowx> sadly pre set pics from hubble and a tad limited but still nice :3
<Pap> Bornholio: So ELI5, is there a difference in the experiments you are proposing vs the Geiger Tube we currently have?
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<leudaimon|work> doesn't scansat provide a layer that could capture the map textures instead of the heightmap or biome map?
<Maxsimal> What I thought would be most interesting about science progression is to have, at the beginning, quite broad criteria for getting science from a particular planetary body - kind of like KSP's current system - but then gradually as a players tech progresses, the requirements get more and more stringent, either in terms of duration, specificity of location, mass, or consumables needed by the spacecraft. I'm not sure how to accomplish that besides a
<Bornholio> The geiger counters that van allen used have more that 1kg of support , they larger anti-coincidence counters and then start including scintillation counter, ELIS bigger, aim-able, measure spectrum not just counts that said, no they are fundamentally the same instrunment
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<soundnwork> Maxsimal: "that besides a" cut off
<soundnwork> and yeah, gradually having bigger & harder science experiments sounds good
<Hypergolic_Skunk> absolutely
<Maxsimal> soundwork: I wrote at the end there 'besides a contract-based science system'
<NathanKell|AWAY> For the record, I don’t think we can completely rip out and replace the science system for the next release :]
<NathanKell|AWAY> (says the guy adding kerbal training, but whatevs)
<awang> Wasn't RealScience supposed to help with some of the science issues?
<egg> NathanKell|AWAY: also, you're as AWAY as I'm zzz
<Pap> Yes awang If you want to take it over, we would love that, but it sits unfinished :(
<NathanKell|AWAY> Yeah, I was gonna go in after scrum but decided to work from home instead
<egg> scrum?
<NathanKell|AWAY> well, “morning chat with the rest of the team, who are remote”
<NathanKell|AWAY> I mean, Joe isn’t remote, but he’s away on a trip this week
<lamont> my boss lives in the UK, so i just WFH all the time
<awang> Pap: I don't have the time nor talent :(
<lamont> even though our HQ is in Seattle i’m a remote worker
<egg> my tech lead works from home most of the day
<NathanKell|AWAY> gonna head off for a bit, back later!
<Maxsimal> NathanKell|Away: Later - and FYI, wasn't saying we should rip out science, just what I thought would be a nice end-goal.
<Bornholio> Okay pap included year and weight/volume for each representative early instrument that said proton 1-4 were Ginormous monstrosities
<Pap> Nor do I awang :(
<lamont> avoids wasting time on getting to/from the office, and i’ve also learned to hate open office plans
<awang> Pap: Maybe if we work together we can scrape together the necessary amounts:P
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> lamont: Do you do KSP dev on your mac?
<Pap> Bornholio: OK, so I am not smart. I thought a Geiger-Muller Tube tested radiation?
<Maxsimal> Realscience looks promising, shame Agathorn didn't have time to finish it.
<lamont> awang: yes
* soundnwork cd ~
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> so Pap .. .rather than fixing the HG-55 to keep my career, I just made a new install with the newest RO/RP-0 versions.. I guess it's time for sounding rockets again :P
<Bornholio> a GM tube is a ionizing radiation detector. gas is ionized and discharges across a gap making a voltage spike (the click that you hear in the movies)
<Bornholio> in a GM coincidenc detector, to make the click the charge has to pass through both tubes at the same time this lets you aim it
<Bornholio> then you add scintillation detectors, clear photolumenscent plastic generally, and wrap that with a thin layer of lead to screen out certain kinds of radiation, like bets (electrons)
<Bornholio> betas
<Pap> Hypergolic_Skunk: Are you on the Dev version?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> yep!
<Pap> Oh no! Good luck!
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> do you use an RP-0 preset? such as 'RP0' ?
<Pap> Yes, that is the correct one
<Hypergolic_Skunk> good :)
<Pap> Don't forget to multiply your payouts by 400-500%
<Hypergolic_Skunk> for testing purposes, or to make it more realistic?
<Pap> Realism
<Pap> We are testing to see how much it should be, but we think it is in that range
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap: where do I set the payout multiplier? http://i.imgur.com/FFTmm16.jpg
<Hypergolic_Skunk> the 'overall multiplier' ?
<Pap> No, in the actual Game Settings
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah
<awang> lamont: How easy/difficult was it to set up?
<Bornholio> Pap what is the change to BP other than the -16pts from start? anything from changed rate per scienc node?
<NathanKell|AWAY> Yes reload the rp0 config
<Pap> I actually do not know Bornholio
<Maxsimal> btw, anyone know why the A9 is so expensive? it's weird that for barely any extra performance - basically mostly just a longer burn through time - it's almost 5x the cost of an A4.
<Pap> Bornholio: would it be alright to modify the parts and not include the REALLY large science experiment you added?
<Bornholio> then move that date forward to 1971
<Bornholio> and make it baout 100liters and 200kg
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<Pap> OK, will do
<Hypergolic_Skunk> is the Aerobee nose meant to not contain any fuel?
<Maxsimal> aerobee nose was for payload
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah!
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<Bornholio> should add a sounding rocket payload tank to it
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<Maxsimal> Yeah we should.
<leudaimon|work> Pap: did you by chance find out what could have caused that issue with the engine configs I was having yesterday? I noticed that the RD100 series was also entirely available to me from the engine gui
<Bornholio> NathanKell|WFH okay, i see only -15BP from changing config, what am i not seeing for the extra point?
<NathanKell|WFH> Bornholio: -15 upgrades you mean?
<Bornholio> yes
<soundnfury> o/ again
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<NathanKell|WFH> Yeah, the other change is the science/year will be slightly different than what it was before config switch
<NathanKell|WFH> It’s just smoothing out the curve a bit so science per point added never goes above 1.5, and the starting rate is .25 less
<NathanKell|WFH> (to make things come out even)
<soundnfury> Maxsimal: maybe because it's made by paid engineers instead of polska slaves :p
<Maxsimal> Is dry mass supposed to stay the same, regardless of utilization? That's worse than it was before - now people will have even more incentive to set utilization to 100%
<soundnfury> Maxsimal: if people set it higher than is realistic, they're only cheating themselves :p
<soundnfury> (well, except in a RIS game)
<NathanKell|WFH> I guess I could have the tooling module display a ‘Guessed utilization’ for people to use as a guideline
<NathanKell|WFH> But I am not going to enforce utilization with tanks built as they are
<NathanKell|WFH> because PP offers too much flexibility to enforce that.
<soundnfury> NathanKell|WFH: well I mean, if you're making your own external tank domes, then the realistic utilisation changes completely ;)
<leudaimon|work> NathanKell|WFH: that would be great!
<Pap> leudaimon|Work: I am guessing you are going to be having that issue for every engine. You have the proper files and they are correct (the same we are using now) but they are not being processed correectly.
<Pap> Does anyone else here play on Linux?
<soundnfury> Pap: \o/
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: Exactly so. That’s why I can’t predict it well.
<leudaimon|work> especially if it applies correctly to fillet cilinders
<Pap> NathanKell|WFH: Any ideas on why Linux might be treating the CFG files differently for Engine Configs?
<NathanKell|WFH> leudaimon|Work: Check if you maybe have a different/multiple RF dlls?
<Pap> soundnfury: Have you tried the new dev version?
<leudaimon|work> Pap, if I share my game folder with you in dropbox, you could test if it works in windows
<NathanKell|WFH> ^ good plan
<soundnfury> Pap: not to the point of actually launching anything, no
<Pap> leudaimon|Work: I will not be able ton until I get home this evening, but ye
<Pap> *yes
<NathanKell|WFH> leudaimon|Work: `grep -r TechRequired GameData/*`
<Pap> soundnfury: if you have time, would you mind trying to duplicate leudaimon|Work issue he is having?
<soundnfury> then again, I also haven't got an updated RF or anything — I literally copied my techtree install and dropped in a new RO and RP-0
<NathanKell|WFH> leudaimon|Work: hastebin the result.
<NathanKell|WFH> Maybe you have a stray MM patch killing them.
<NathanKell|WFH> NO
<NathanKell|WFH> wait
<NathanKell|WFH> techRequired
<NathanKell|WFH> not capital T
<NathanKell|WFH> very important.
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: You need the updated RF dll or things will break badly FYI
<soundnfury> NathanKell|WFH: right, is there a release somewhere or do I build it?
<leudaimon|work> I'll try that when I get home
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: Binaries built
<NathanKell|WFH> Pap, you have the link?
<Maxsimal> NathanKell|What about having tank dry mass just scale linearly with available volume, at least above 50%?
<soundnfury> NathanKell|WFH: and do I need to update any other cfgs besides RO and RP-0?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap: do I need that, too?
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury you do not
<Pap> Hypergolic_Skunk: YES! Very important
<NathanKell|WFH> Hypergolic_Skunk you do
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury when I get off work I’ll be making a custom KCT tho
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ok :)
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<soundnfury> NathanKell|WFH: I see.
<soundnfury> Pap: what's this TestFlightRF.dll, where does that go
<soundnfury> and why is there a Unity UI dll in there?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> do we need all of them?
<Pap> No, you only need RF.dll
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ok
<Pap> And it goes in the RealFuels Plugin folder (overwriting the one that is there)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> done!
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> goodbye former career 'Hans Koenigsskunk', hello new career 'Gwynne Skunkwell'
<soundnfury> btw I think the loading progress bar is broken, after MM patches it jumps back to about ⅛ and finishes at about ¼
<Pap> Bornholio: still around?
<Pap> soundnfury: Yes it is, that is a side effect of the pretty background images
<soundnfury> How curious.
<Pap> It is fixed in 1.3 (from what I understand)
<Bornholio> yes
<soundnfury> What are the difficulty settings? Moderate but 400% funds rewards?
<Pap> OK, I am going to leave in the giant one, but am going to remove the first one as the GM Counter comes into play before we start here. For your transmisison rates for the G-M, you have 40% transmission and 4/10 for the science. Should it be able to transmit 100% of the 40% of sceince it can gain?
<Pap> soundnfury: That works
<Pap> Bornholio: Or 40% of the 40% of science it can gain?
<Bornholio> each instrument added to the understanding of the spectrum so they could all be seperate points or a % of some total max
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<Pap> Sorry, I am not explaining (or asking correctly)...Let's say that the overall amount of science to be gained is 10. The max for the GM Counter will be 4 science it can gain (40% of the total). But should it be able to transmit back 100% of the 4 science? Or should it require returning to the KSC? Bornholio
<Bornholio> zmax 4 of 10 points and 40% transmission, emulsions and materials analsis give a lot of data from returned samples
<Maxsimal> $375,000,000 for a 60t launch pad?
<Pap> Maxsimal: Union labor
<Pap> Thanks Bornholio
<stratochief> Pap: best Union is Soviet Union, comrade
<Pap> :)
<Maxsimal> That's 30x what it used to be - feels very odd.
<Bornholio> sounds wrong
<Bornholio> 75k
<Bornholio> i had something like that weirdness before also
<NathanKell|WFH> Maxsimal: Did you set fund penalties to something weird?
<NathanKell|WFH> It’s supposed to be left at default
<NathanKell|WFH> only fund *gain* should be modified to 5x what the preset says
<Maxsimal> NathanKell|WFH: Gotcha. I thought it would have to be 5x as well. Thanks
<Maxsimal> yes that's fixed it
<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: is there a simple formula for the mass of a pressure vessel that’s a conic frustum with dome ends, like there is for a cylinder with dome ends?
<soundnfury> Pap: what bug am I supposed to be looking for? What happened to leudaimon?
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: Unlock first rocketry node. See if AJ10-27 shows as purchaseable in the engine UI
<Pap> All of hi engine configs are available from the start without having to be unlcoked first
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: Simpler even than that actually
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: Load KSP once, check configcache. Find the ROAerobeeSustainer.
<NathanKell|WFH> See if its CONFIGs have techRequired
<NathanKell|WFH> leudaimon|Work did you ever do that grep?
<awang> So does the difficulty settings on the RP-0 wiki need to be updated?
<awang> IIRC it only mentioned reducing funds penalties
<Pap> awang: EVERYTHING on the RP-0 wiki is going to need to be updated
<awang> Touche
<soundnfury> NathanKell|WFH: XASR-1: techRequired = basicRocketry
<soundnfury> same for AJ10-27
<soundnfury> does not sound correct :/
<NathanKell|WFH> good. Then it’s just leudaimon|Work :P
<NathanKell|WFH> wait
<NathanKell|WFH> they’re both basicRocketry?
<NathanKell|WFH> yeah that’s an issue
<awang> I take it that KSP doesn't have a way to set the difficulty settings programmatically?
<NathanKell|WFH> awang: ?
<awang> Uh
<NathanKell|WFH> We are just doing this right now because we don’t know what multiplier will be right for release.
<NathanKell|WFH> Obviously we will not be having people futz with multipliers on release.
<soundnfury> also, RD-101 and RD-102 have no techRequired, and RD-103 has techRequired = engineering101
<awang> Like when a save file is created, set penalties/rewards/revert options/etc. to recommended values
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: Bingo
<soundnfury> it seems like none of the new tech tree is being applied
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: Yeah, so linux for some reason doesn’t like that cfg
<NathanKell|WFH> OH
<NathanKell|WFH> Line endings maybe?
<NathanKell|WFH> open RP-0/Tree/ECM-Engines.cfg
<NathanKell|WFH> sorry, TREE-Engines.cfg
<awang> Are line endings actually an issue?
<awang> I thought quite a few mods use CRLF in their configs
<awang> They don't seem to break on *nix
<awang> I remember git complaining about quite a few of them
<NathanKell|WFH> OH
<NathanKell|WFH> wait.
<NathanKell|WFH> Now I have an idea what’s going on
<NathanKell|WFH> Of course.
<Pap> Pap broke it?
<xShadowx> ^
<NathanKell|WFH> For some reason the patch order on linux is not the same as on Win
<awang> Case sensitivity?
<xShadowx> lol o.O
<NathanKell|WFH> So RP-0’s FOR[RealismOverhaulEngines] is running before RealismOverhaul’s
<NathanKell|WFH> Yes, I wonder if RP for some reason comes before Re on linux
<xShadowx> sort order
<soundnfury> NathanKell|WFH: sort order is case-sensitive
<awang> That would only depend on the file system though, right?
<awang> If it's being sorted in C#/C++ code it should always be case-sensitive, right?
<soundnfury> Z sorts before a
<awang> Hm
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: AHA!
<NathanKell|WFH> Oh man
<NathanKell|WFH> that’s dangerous
<awang> How are patches applied by MM? Are all the .cfgs read in by MM, then sorted?
<NathanKell|WFH> I hope this is the only thing it broke
<NathanKell|WFH> awang: No.
<NathanKell|WFH> Well, sort of
<NathanKell|WFH> IIRC it’s on the MM wiki
<soundnfury> NathanKell|WFH: that's why you're meant to be *eggsplicit* about your patch dependencies
<soundnfury> rather than relying on the order they happen to happen in for you ;)
<awang> Hm
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: Fair enough
<NathanKell|WFH> fixing
<NathanKell|WFH> (the problem is we need to run our stuff after FOR but before AFTER.)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> NathanKell|WFH: is the stock game anywhere near as much work as RO/RSS/RP0 is? (asking b/c iirc you work for Squad? )
<Pap> ^^^ used to work for Squad
<awang> He'd tell you, but he'd have to kill you
<awang> NDAs are pretty serious things
<Hypergolic_Skunk> oh!
<Hypergolic_Skunk> sry :3
<xShadowx> awang: for each folder A-Z > for each file A-Z, for ksp to load the patches themselves, then MM loops the FOR[] tags to pick what patches come first, then runs the patches, so fie order determines FOR[1] vs FOR[1], MM decides FOR[1] vs FOR[2]
<NathanKell|WFH> That’s...not correct tho.
<NathanKell|WFH> Ok fine
<xShadowx> o.O?
<xShadowx> i miss a bit?
<NathanKell|WFH> 1. KSP loads all cfgs into GameDatabase, as xShadowx says.
<NathanKell|WFH> 2. MM does a pass to determine what ‘mods’ get added to its list (i.e. what passes)
<NathanKell|WFH> These are as follows:
<awang> Hypergolic_Skunk: I was joking, but maybe that's how it actually works
<NathanKell|WFH> FIRST
<NathanKell|WFH> err, sorry, I got sidetracked.
<NathanKell|WFH> back in 2.
<NathanKell|WFH> The modlist is created as:
<NathanKell|WFH> 1. All assembly names.
<NathanKell|WFH> (in alpha order)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> awang: :P
<NathanKell|WFH> Err, let me start again with proper ordering
<NathanKell|WFH> 1. KSP loads all cfgs into GameDatabase, as xShadowx says.
<NathanKell|WFH> 2. MM does a pass to determine what ‘mods’ get added to its list.
<NathanKell|WFH> A. All assembly names, sorted alpha.
<NathanKell|WFH> B. All FOR specifiers, sorted alpha (note, all of thse are inserted after A)
<NathanKell|WFH> (excepting what’s already in A)
<NathanKell|WFH> C. All root folders in GameData that aren’t in A or B, sorted alpha (again, these are appended, so after A and B).
<NathanKell|WFH> Now that it has this set, it then discards all nodes/values that have a NEEDS that isn’t met by one of those ‘mods’
<NathanKell|WFH> Finally it runs all patches. They go:
<NathanKell|WFH> A. All FIRST patches
<NathanKell|WFH> B. All legacy (no pass specifier) passes
<NathanKell|WFH> C. For each mod in the modlist, in the order in the modlist, run a BEFORE, FOR, and AFTER pass for it
<NathanKell|WFH> D. FINAL
<NathanKell|WFH> there you go :)
<xShadowx> o.O so FOR[AAAAAAAA] (no such mod/folder exists) runs after FOR[Zmynewmod] (which is a mod) ?
<NathanKell|WFH> (now, *within* each pass, all patches are applied in the order in which KSP loaded the node)
<NathanKell|WFH> xShadowx: Could, could not. Depends if Zmynewmod is a plugin or just a folder
<NathanKell|WFH> See above :P
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<soundnfury> NathanKell|WFH: so, what should I change in TREE-Engines.cfg to make it work?
<awang> Hm
<NathanKell|WFH> soundnfury: Nothing, I have to make a bunch of RO changes.
<awang> So RP-0/ is getting sorted before RealismOverhaul/?
<soundnfury> ah
<xShadowx> NathanKell|WFH: i thought regardless of the 3 sources it sorted them :| sowwy for the trouble
<NathanKell|WFH> awang: On PC it does not. On linux it does, yes.
<awang> Interesting
<NathanKell|WFH> xShadowx: Np. Sarbian planned to do that at one point but IIRC never did.
<awang> I thought the C# runtime would work the same way on both platforms
<leudaimon|work> NathanKell|WFH: lots of backchat to read here, but I couldn't make the grep, I'm not at home yet... I shared my install folder on dropbox though: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xo0b7b3zfz9vcmj/AADHor6CZ-tCUOMvOVQOacxCa?dl=0
<NathanKell|WFH> awang: The C# runtime does.
<NathanKell|WFH> But it queries system IO to get dirlist in sorted order.
<awang> ohhhhhhh
<awang> I thought it read then sorted
<NathanKell|WFH> leudaimon|Work: no worries, we figured it out
<awang> It all makes sense now
<NathanKell|WFH> awang: why would it sort? :]
<NathanKell|WFH> it just wants the files/folders :)
<awang> Because it didn't assume the directory list was sorted?
<xShadowx> everyone switch to windows, problem solved :P
<awang> I thought it'd be receive dirs in unspecified order -> sort -> continue
<awang> Not receive dirs in sorted order -> continue
<xShadowx> thats a bit surprising this issue wasnt known forever ago ;x
<awang> Well
<awang> It isn't an issue on Windows
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<awang> And it isn't an issue on Mac (until 10.13 is released)
<xShadowx> ya but several linux players are here :P
* Pap figured out why leudaimon|Work was doing so well in Race To Space...Cheaty linux install
* soundnfury stabs xShadowx with an exquisitely sharpened Debian
<awang> I was just about to say that :P
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, what's the simple formula for a cylindrical pressure vessel w/ dome heads?
<awang> Wasn't Microsoft supposed to have switched away from NTFS ages ago?
<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: I only need the relative mass anyway
<ferram4> Oh, I think I see what's going on.
<ferram4> Hold on, I require paper to do calc
<leudaimon|work> NathanKell|WFH: read the backchat now.. yeah, I thought it could be an issue with the fact linux is case-sensitive, mentioned that yesterday... just had no idea how it could affect MM
<blowfish> I've worked with MM's code a bit, what's going on?
<leudaimon|work> What is weird is that the tech locking of engine cfgs worked perfectly before the new tech tree
<awang> blowfish: <@NathanKell|WFH> So RP-0's FOR[RealismOverhaulEngines] is running before RealismOverhaul's
<awang> On Linux, at least
<soundnfury> leudaimon|Work: there was a change on Monday from FOR[RealismOverhaul] to FOR[RealismOverhaulEngines], that may be when it börk
<Pap> leudaimon|Work: It was because the technologies to unlock them were written directly into the Engine Configs file themselves
<Pap> soundnfury: is correct
<Pap> soundnfury: Actually no, the change happened with that, but not because of that
<Pap> We moved everything out of the Engine Configs file. It is all now generated out of the spreadsheet of awesome
<blowfish> huh, imma take a look
<github> [RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v715u
<github> RealismOverhaul/dev 9cdd1df NathanKell: Split global engines into two passes for linux+RP0 compatibility. Redo how AJ10-138 is handled.
<Pap> So linux uses Unicode/ASCII values?
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v715w
<github> RP-0/Developmental d7565a1 NathanKell: Fix pass of engine configs for linux compat.
<NathanKell|WFH> leudaimon|Work: The issue is that tech-locking was brought over from RO to RP-0. It was always (wrongly) in RO before.
<NathanKell|WFH> To do that, however, we had to do some magic with the passes, because we needed to set costs *after* the configs were created, but *before* any multipliers were applied.
<NathanKell|WFH> And in RO before just now, those passes were, respectively, FOR[] and AFTER[] the same thing.
<NathanKell|WFH> So we relied on RP-0 running it’s FOR[] after RO did its FOR.
<NathanKell|WFH> But on linux that is wrong.
<NathanKell|WFH> So I just now fixed it by making the paths explicit.
<NathanKell|WFH> HOWEVER> You will need to nuke your RO folder and regrab from dev, because I had to delete a file.
<leudaimon|work> I'm amazed by how fast you made all these changes!
<NathanKell|WFH> Pap: note change to RP-0 file. Pass is now different.
<blowfish> MM uses List<string>.Sort(), I wouldn't expect that to give different results
<NathanKell|WFH> blowfish: It’s not about passes!!!
<NathanKell|WFH> It’s about the order cfgs are loaded.
<NathanKell|WFH> *within* a pass
<NathanKell|WFH> KSP itself (via the filesystem) is doing the loading
<NathanKell|WFH> MM just foreaches over the nodes.
<blowfish> oh
<NathanKell|WFH> Now, with this fix, it is using explicit passes. Which are indeed sorted. :)
<leudaimon|work> I'll get the new dev folders and check it later when I'm back home :)
<NathanKell|WFH> ok!
<NathanKell|WFH> Glad this is resolved
<NathanKell|WFH> I *think* it’s the only case we rely on doing that.
<xShadowx> damn buggy stock :P
<blowfish> I would be interested to know what's causing this
<blowfish> but in general I don't think order of patches within the same pass should be relied on
<blowfish> (even if it worked currently)
<NathanKell|WFH> blowfish: What’s causing it is KSP loads confignodes by depth-first recursion in directories, *in the order the filesystme offers directories and files*
<NathanKell|WFH> Then MM processes confignodes in the order they’re in gamedatabase
<blowfish> well yeah, it's 100% how KSP puts them in the game db to begin with
<NathanKell|WFH> So order within a pass is entirely determined by the order in which the OS hands KSP files
<NathanKell|WFH> And on linux, RP comes before Re
<blowfish> makes sense
<NathanKell|WFH> so files in RP-0 are loaded before files in RealismOverhaul
<blowfish> err, I'll add to what I said above, order of patches within a particular file is probably fine to rely on
<NathanKell|WFH> so everything in, say, FOR[foo] in RP-0 runs *before* everything in FOR[foo] in RO...on linux.
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<NathanKell|WFH> On Windows, it’s the reverse.
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<NathanKell|WFH> I was taking advantage of directory order, but didn’t realize it’d be different on linux.
<blowfish> I've been tempted to entirely rewrite the game database loading more than once now
<blowfish> hard to justify something that invasive in a mod though
<blowfish> hmm, also looking at MM's code, I don't see how DLL mods would be processed first
<blowfish> it adds DLLs, then FOR[xxx], then directories, but then it sorts them all
<blowfish> oh, it puts spaces first, that makes sense
<Maxsimal> My tech tree no longer contains things like the node that shows the XASR unlock
<NathanKell|WFH> blowfish: OH then Sarbian did do the total-sorting
<NathanKell|WFH> so my info is wrong :]
<NathanKell|WFH> Maxsimal: don’t have ‘hide empty nodes’ on
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<blowfish> no wait, that thing about the spaces is wrong
<blowfish> I'll have to experiment when I get home
<Maxsimal> NathanKell: I don't, I can see all the nodes.
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* xShadowx makes a screenshot and makes a plaque showing he was right
<xShadowx> jk :)
<xShadowx> poking MM code to see what else i learn though :)
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<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, I have an answer. It is rather... over the top.
<Pap> Bornholio: Have the Advanced Emulsion Detectors ever been put on satellites, or only Balloons?
<ferram4> Making the assumption that the wall thickness is constant throughout for manufacturing reasons, that the cap at the wider section is a full hemisphere, and the cap at the narrower section is a spherical cap that keeps the same slope as the cone frustrum at the interface, the result is:
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* NathanKell|WFH braces for impact
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, m = 2*pi * (mat_dens * tank_pres * r_max / ult_stress) * [A + B + C]
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, A = 0.5 * (r_max - r_min) + r_min
<Hypergolic_Skunk> does anyone here use Procedural Wings?
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, B = 2 * r_max^2
<soundnfury> Hypergolic_Skunk: yes?
<Bornholio> Pap not really since they were sample return, simpler instruments using 80's tech were though
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<soundnfury> (I mainly use it for sounding-rocket fins, but I do _occasionally_ make actual planes with it)
<Bornholio> In that case they were calorimeters
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, C = r_min^2 * (1 - D / sqrt(D^2 +1))
<Hypergolic_Skunk> soundnfury: it's not really a 'problem', but ever since 1.2.2, the CoM indicator is borked when I use Proc Wings.
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, D = length_cone / (r_max - r_min)
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, I make no promises about this.
<Pap> Bornholio: Any idea what launches those were on?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> soundnfury: let me just get screenshots
<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: ok, removeing pressure and strength, we get 2*pi*r_max* [A+B+C]
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<soundnfury> Hypergolic_Skunk: everything is borked. The vessel dimensions (for pad limits) are borked too
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, and then plug in all the other equations.
<NathanKell|WFH> yeah
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, DO NOT use this for non-conical frustrums.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> borkmania!
<ferram4> It will explode.
<soundnfury> ferram4: frusta. The singular is frustum, not frustrum.
<ferram4> ...I stand corrected.
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, don't use it for non-conical what he saids
<NathanKell|WFH> :D
<NathanKell|WFH> In all its glory: 2*pi()*r_max*((0.5*(r_max- r_min)+r_min)+(2*r_max^2)+( r_min^2*(1-(length_cone/(r_max-r_min))/sqrt((length_cone/(r_max-r_min))^2+1))))
<ferram4> That's why I broke it up
<ferram4> I can't read that shit
<NathanKell|WFH> :)
<Bornholio> problem i had is a lot of the program pages for the experiments go to dead links or paywall journals
<Hypergolic_Skunk> soundnfury: http://imgur.com/a/MzMVn - the tail part contains no fuel, and it only happens with Proc Wing parts
<NathanKell|WFH> Right. And if the domes get squashed, what happens do you think?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> and just FYI, the plane does not tip over :P
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<NathanKell|WFH> (For a cylinder, let’s ignore cones)
<ferram4> Reduces the mass slightly. Not to scale with the squishing though.
<ferram4> THe squishing increases the stresses in the dome/cylindr interfaces.
<NathanKell|WFH> And elongated is the reverse?
<ferram4> Yes, it should.
<leudaimon|work> Bornholio: if those are academic journals send me the link, I'm at the university and they may be available for me
<ferram4> Well, not quite.
<ferram4> The thing is, the thickness should already carry enough safety factor to handle the base stress concentrations.
<Bornholio> pap so instruments like NINA from russia in '98 http://wizard.roma2.infn.it/nina/index.htm but all the info sucks
<NathanKell|WFH> So why are full domes ever used then?
<Maxsimal> Is there any way to see the rollout cost, besides just subtracting start from end funds?
<ferram4> So elongating the dome won't have any effect. Not like they're going to appreciably reduce the thickness there as a result.
<NathanKell|WFH> Ah, and they’d make the interface thicker for the squashed dome
<ferram4> Squishing will probably need a small amount of reinforcement at the joint and probably that's it.
<ferram4> Maybe more careful examination of the welds.
<ferram4> Or, for the extremely squished ones, starting to increase the thickness to counter it.
<leudaimon|work> Maxsimal: rollout cost is shown in the KCT gui at the VAB
<ferram4> Which starts to push the mass of the whole thing up.
<NathanKell|WFH> Yeah, so it’s balancing lighter from less stringer area vs heavier from dome interface reinforcement
<NathanKell|WFH> s/its/it’s/
<Qboid> NathanKell|WFH meant to say: In all it’s glory: 2*pi()*r_max*((0.5*(r_max- r_min)+r_min)+(2*r_max^2)+( r_min^2*(1-(length_cone/(r_max-r_min))/sqrt((length_cone/(r_max-r_min))^2+1))))
<NathanKell|WFH> ah it’s just my screen that’s screwed, I didn’t forget the ‘ in ‘it’s balancing’
<ferram4> Also, in practice, once you have a certain amount of squish, it should be trivial to keep that amount tooled and just increase the tank length.
<Pap> Bornholio: I always take that stuff and then bring it into the NSSDCA for more updated information
<ferram4> Changing the squish should be more complicated.
<Bornholio> pap http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a236225.pdf is a good instrument for that category, but its better quantified as a Gamma ray telescope
<Pap> Bornholio: What I am running into, is I do not know what to use for a comparable model, that is why I was asking if you knew a craft it was on
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<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: And what would be the volume for such a conic?
<ferram4> For the conic + the sphere sections?
<NathanKell|WFH> yeah
<NathanKell|WFH> Um, also, unless I translated your math wrong, I’m gettng weird results
<ferram4> Alright, so conic and the bottom sphere sections are just the conic frustum of length_cone and wiath r_maxn and r_min, while the bottom sphere is 2/3*Pi* r_max^3
<ferram4> The top, hold on
<awang> So much math
<awang> What is it all for, anyways?
<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: yep, something is screwy with the formula.
<ferram4> With which formula, the mass one?
<NathanKell|WFH> A frustum with height 0.00001 has the same mass as one with 10000 height
<NathanKell|WFH> yeah the mass one
<Qboid> Sarbian: blowfish left a message for you in #kspmodding [09.08.2017 01:34:01]: "how would you feel about breaking up MM's code into >1 file?"
<Sarbian> NathanKell|WFH: (2days later) I am quite sure someone already played with the loading screen. I ll have a look in my logs.
<NathanKell|WFH> awang: Calculating utilization and tank mass
<Bornholio> OSSE is on COmpton gamaray observatory
<NathanKell|WFH> Sarbian: That someone is now me, so problem solved. :)
<ferram4> Oh derp. Multiply A by length_cone and
<Sarbian> :)
<ferram4> that should fix it
<NathanKell|WFH> and ?
<NathanKell|WFH> ah
<NathanKell|WFH> and that
<ferram4> Forgot that I did it in normalized length
<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: ok. Basically I’m trying to make it comparable to cylinders
<NathanKell|WFH> Use said do not use it for non-conic frustums--did you mean do not use it for other frustums, or for anything but this?
<NathanKell|WFH> (trying to compare to a 3m x 9m dome tank by using 1.5, 1.49999, 9
<awang> NathanKell|WFH: So I won't be able to abuse proc tanks by using 100% utilization instead of 86%?
<Sarbian> lamont: If it this still does not wotk properly then I think my time would be better spent on that KoS controller integration at that point.
<ferram4> Alright, so to finish off the volume
<ferram4> defining E = r_min * (sqrt(D^2 + 1) - D)
<NathanKell|WFH> Sarbian: MJ is fixed for my sounding rockets btw
<Sarbian> At least I fixed something then ;)
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, volume for the smaller spherical cap: V = pi*E/6 * (3*r_min^2 + E^2)
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<soundnfury> is the Sounding Rocket (Low) contract still supposed to exist, or should the new ones have replaced it?
<soundnfury> (because, I'm still being offered it)
<NathanKell|WFH> Maxsimal ^ ?
<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: The volumes aren’t coming out equal either.
<NathanKell|WFH> for 1.5x1.4999x9 I get 70.7m^3, vs the cyl calc for 3m diam x 9m = 77.75m^3
<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: With *0* cone height it looks correct, but as soon as I go to 0.000001m cone height, the volume gets cut in half
<NathanKell|WFH> off by a factor of 2 on length somewhere?
<ferram4> Um... I didn't give you a volume formula for cone frustums.
<NathanKell|WFH> Yeah, I looked that up
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<ferram4> Oh for fucks sake
<NathanKell|WFH> ?
<Maxsimal> soundnfury: Yeah, it us, until you break Karman.
<ferram4> break it down into multiple sections for volume and mass
<soundnfury> Maxsimal: I have broken Karman.
<ferram4> I diagnose your problem as mismatched parentheses caused by being stubborn.
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<Maxsimal> soundnfury: Ah yeah, it's using 130k, not 100k. I'll fix that, thanks
<soundnfury> Hmm, also I'm being offered first solar powered satellite, shouldn't that depend on first satellite? Pap?
<borntohide> then you couldn't do they both at the same time
<Pap> soundnfury: That can be accomplished with the first satellite. It is done in the event that Vanguard would have worked
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<soundnfury> Pap: well then, the flavour text needs to be changed
<soundnfury> because it says "Now that we have accomplished our first satellite", or words to that effect
<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: There, all broken down.
<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: It’d identical to what it was before.
<NathanKell|WFH> s/d/s/
<Qboid> NathanKell|WFH meant to say: ferram4: It’s identical to what it was before.
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<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, do you ahve a derivation for the cylinder mass that you calculated?
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<ferram4> Also, you know what, fuck it. Model the smaller cap as a hemisphere just like the larger end.
<ferram4> It's easier and I'm tired of trying to work that mess out.
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<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: There’s something screwy in calculation of the top dome I think
<ferram4> NathanKell|WFH, just make C equal the same as B but with r_min and call it a day
<ferram4> We'll ignore the angle change.
<NathanKell|WFH> Still not coming out right...
<NathanKell|WFH> Well, assuming the other formula is right
<NathanKell|WFH> Wait I’m stooopid
<ferram4> That's why I wanted to see a derivation. Because I don't know if it is.
<NathanKell|WFH> Nope, not stoopid. I was only stooopid for a sec.
<ferram4> The volume I know is correct now.
<ferram4> Which I don't trust since there's no derivation.
<ferram4> And it's wikipedia. If you actually know what you're talking about your edits are reverted because you'e not part of the clique
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<soundnfury> ferram4: "... not that I'm bitter."
<soundnfury> ;)
<ferram4> I have seen so many errors there that I just don't care anymore.
<NathanKell|WFH> Like the LR87-AJ-3 having an O:F of 1.93? :P
<NathanKell|WFH> because hey, the other LR87s did!
<soundnfury> -_-
<ferram4> So, without a derivation or source for the cylindrical mass I don't know what assumptions they're making and what they're doing so I can't create an equivalent version for the conical frustum.
<ferram4> Like, I gave it a try, but apparently they're assuming something different.
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<NathanKell|WFH> ferram4: comparing the two, it looks like yours is doubling the affect of radius (or theirs halving)
<ferram4> *shrug*
<NathanKell|WFH> In the case of equivalent rmin and max, and zero side length:
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<NathanKell|WFH> Ah, sorry, quadrupling
<NathanKell|WFH> err...
<NathanKell|WFH> imma shaddup for a sec
<NathanKell|WFH> yep, quadrupling.
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<NathanKell|WFH> yeah, the 2s seemed to be in the wrong place
<NathanKell|WFH> Got it in line now
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<awang> I wonder what a TF config for N1 parts would look like
<awang> That would make for some interesting gameplay
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<soundnfury> NathanKell|WFH: did someone confuse radius for diameter, perhaps?
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<borntohide> had a weirdness, bought LR105 and it didn't remove the price buyinig the engine upgrade inside of it did cost
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<borntohide> needed a comman engine, upgrade
<NathanKell|WFH> borntohide: whose LR105?
<NathanKell|WFH> maybe the sheet didn’t configure it right?
<NathanKell|WFH> Pap ^
<borntohide> stock
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<borntohide> a pair of side decouplers cost more than the main portion of my orbital rocket (after paying for tooling) making an atlas i guess
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<awang> What is PartDatabase.cfg used for?
<awang> Actually, never mind
<awang> I can't google
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<Pap> I'll look at the LR105 when I get home tonight
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<borntohide> Just flew the jankiest peice of crap into my "First orbit" 9000x5000km Aim for the cheapest slop and get sick first orbit.
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<Bornholio> must say you really have to be cautious and save the funds for parts and tooling you will need later. I went down to under 10k buying engines and tooling for first orbit
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