<blowfish>
some person wanted to give AJE a Chinese localization but went in and did it in the most obtuse way possible
<blowfish>
i.e. they created a new repo with all the .cfg files edited
<blowfish>
so now I have to (1) implement localization in AJE (2) Write a script to pull all these changes into the localization table and (3) Either just release it like that or get them to also localize all of the strings that are currently in the code
<ferram4>
NathanKell, when I go to implement things, how should I go about updating engine properties?
<NathanKell>
Why not just write your own solver and replace RFSolver?
<NathanKell>
Then you can just use ModuleEnginesRF
<ferram4>
My own solver for what?
<NathanKell>
SolverEngines engines have a module wrapper, and a solver that actually calculates engine performance given conditions
<NathanKell>
so replace the second part
<Bornholio>
okay what did i mess up in an install if my solids are not giving thrust and having no fuel
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: CRP? RF?
<ProjectThoth>
What's better for engine protection, doors in a heat shield or something that inflates/folds over them?
<ProjectThoth>
I'd assume doors are heavy.
<blowfish>
ModuleEnginesRF is pretty tied to the exact parameters SolverRF requires though
<Bornholio>
both CRP an dRF appear to be installed correctly
<NathanKell>
dRF?
<NathanKell>
ah
<NathanKell>
an d
<NathanKell>
Ok. What version of RF?
<Bornholio>
12.2.2
<Bornholio>
dang it ckan
<ferram4>
NathanKell, I have no idea what all of this is supposed to do for me.
<blowfish>
CKAN metadata should be correct for RF now
<blowfish>
12.2.2 is the latest for KSP 1.2.2
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Ah. How do you plan to handle throttling?
<ferram4>
FOr now, I'm just going to vary thrust and keep Isp constant.
<NathanKell>
I mean, what kind of data were you planning to expose?
<NathanKell>
ok
<ferram4>
Same as everything else does.
<ferram4>
I want the first versions to be just as simple as every other engine mod.
<NathanKell>
ok...
<NathanKell>
hmm
<NathanKell>
A lot of cfgs assume there will be a ModuleEnginesRF
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<NathanKell>
So I guess what you might want to do is take the same code ModuleEngineConfigs uses to update a ModuleEnginesRF
<NathanKell>
(or any other module engines)
<NathanKell>
just instead of loading data directly from confignode, create the confignode and *then* use that loading code.
<ferram4>
What mod has ModuleEngineConfigs again? RealFuels?
<Pap>
o/
<Pap>
Bornholio: Yes, that is the proper config
<blowfish>
ferram4: yes
<ferram4>
Okay, so there's my dependency
<blowfish>
we could potentially move some version of that into SolverEngines though
<blowfish>
it would be useful for AJE too
<blowfish>
hmm ... if you know nozzle exit pressure I think you can calculate Isp variation based on throttle
<blowfish>
if you assume that chamber pressure varies linearly with throttle
<ferram4>
A heavily simplified version, yes. But then there wouldn't be a 1:1 relation between thrust and throttle, it'd have to be between mass flow and throttle.
<blowfish>
yeah, that's true
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<blowfish>
although ... maybe you could back-calculate
<blowfish>
imma do some quick calculations
<ferram4>
Not now.
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<ferram4>
Don't overcomplicate things.
<ferram4>
Let's get it working, then mess with this stuff.
<blowfish>
heh, yeah, fair enough
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<ferram4>
Look, not only do I need to get the correct behavior, I also need to add sanity limits, a GUI, and get a model that can be deformed.
<ferram4>
There's a fuckton of other things to do first.
<blowfish>
heh true
<ferram4>
So, do we want to try and move ModuleEngineConfigs into SolverEngines, or leave things as they are for now?
<blowfish>
is there anything else in RF that you need?
<blowfish>
wait hmm ... just because I'm already thinking about this. I believe that thrust and chamber pressure should be in proportion. One term is proportional to mass flow and one is proportional to exit pressure, which are both proportional to chamber pressure
<blowfish>
well, under the assumption that chamber temperature doesn't change with throttle which probably isn't really true, but ehh
<ferram4>
Besides the tank filling stuff, there isn't anything else.
<ferram4>
Chamber temp does change a fair bit with pressure.
<ferram4>
But the thing is, if I can avoid a hard dependency on RF or SolverEngines I'd like to.
<ferram4>
Mostly to see if I can drag in any extra modellers who say, "I liek this for stock, but I want prettier engines. Here!"
<blowfish>
probably hard to avoid a hard dependency on SolverEngines unless you want to rewrite most of its functionality
<ferram4>
Yeah....
<ferram4>
Eh, I guess hard dependency on RF, we'll see what else can be done later.
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: enjoying the local heat and smoke?:|
<NathanKell>
Means we can't go to the airshow :(
<xShadowx>
:(
<xShadowx>
damn canada
<xShadowx>
they're just jealous of our planes :P
<Bornholio>
pap suggestion for RP-0, since we assume no part test contracts, maybe bulk delete Module "name = ModuleTestSubject"
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: You know this stuff yeah? Would one need new tooling if switching to a thicker tank wall (i.e. going from normal-pressure to 150atm "highly pressurized" pressure)?
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: news claims air will clear by tomorrow (hopefully) and airshow is 4-6, so maybe you can go sunday :D
<Bornholio>
It assumes welding a thicker material and fabricating the sheets themselves but not really much in terms of handling the size itself, one thing it does require that may hurt is forging tonnages that are quite a bit higher
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7wuH
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 2bdd421 NathanKell: Remove ECMs now in the sheet, update ECMs.
<Bornholio>
after i figure out what is killing my solids i'm on erasing those modules
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Re tooling. Basically I'm asking, if you 'unlock' a certain diameter and certain length tooling, should that serve for both regular and highly-pressurized tanks, or would you need to 'unlock' that tooling twice?
<Bornholio>
i'd like to say yes but hydarulic press tonnages would be higher, and they are big ticket items
<Bornholio>
and cranes...
<NathanKell>
yes once or yes twice? :]
<NathanKell>
"is it either x or y?" "yes"
<NathanKell>
I *think* you mean yes it should only unlock once?
<NathanKell>
Barring the press tonnage bit
<Bornholio>
unlock once but the pressurized needs something else
<Bornholio>
isn't that included in the cost of the tank unlock though
<Starwaster>
uhm whut? MOBILE LAUNCH PAD???
<NathanKell>
No, because there aren't tank unlocks until 1.3
<Bornholio>
or is that a non-cost
<Bornholio>
ok
<NathanKell>
and the tank unlocks would be tank tech level, not tank type
<NathanKell>
well, could be tank type too but...
<xShadowx>
Starwaster: mobile launch pad has existesd ever since KF met EL :P
<Starwaster>
so what does that mean that I shouldn't get excited if something like that comes to stock?
<Starwaster>
pfffff
<xShadowx>
or you mean real ones?o.O
<xShadowx>
ah stock o.O
* xShadowx
is curious now too
<Bornholio>
It my experience material matters more than size within limits. We made battleship armor beofre rockets
<taniwha>
battleship armor is a little more forgiving when it comes to precision
<xShadowx>
24 inches of steel........whats 1-2mm
<xShadowx>
also hard to imagine anything making a hole in 24 inches of steel
<Bornholio>
but handling 120t plates make handling a 3t tank pale
<Bornholio>
and fabrication costs for tooling is the issue. I had a 3000t press for making watercraft hulls an my last place of work, 5m dollars to squish fiberglass
<Starwaster>
mot that it's RF specific of course, MFT suffers from it too
<Starwaster>
or probazbly moreso since most RF users proibably use RO too which remofes the resources at the cofig lev
<NathanKell>
Not just that, RO doesn't suffer from it at all and in fact kinda gains from it.
<NathanKell>
So it's less than simple to fix :]
<taniwha>
we should have fixed that bug while we could :(
<ferram4>
FINALLY
<ferram4>
The NRE is actually IN THE FUCKING SIM
<NathanKell>
taniwha: Thought about it, but it'd have killed the cost of every mod part ever
<NathanKell>
we were too locked in by then.
<taniwha>
NathanKell: not necessarily a bad thing
<NathanKell>
...
<NathanKell>
:]
<taniwha>
part mods deserve some pain too :P
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: Ah, question about PP since you're on that now. Can you go back to displaying the full measurement on the diameter and length fields?
<NathanKell>
You can drag the slider and diameter changes, but the number doesn't update because it's rounding for display. Proc Fairing's sliders don't do that...
<NathanKell>
I think it's cuz of the useSI thing
<Starwaster>
I'll takea look at it
<Starwaster>
how many placers dioy oyou want it displaying tioo?
<Starwaster>
goddmait cant type right now
<NathanKell>
Always in mm, IMO
<NathanKell>
same as PF
<NathanKell>
since that's what it's *supporting* right now, just not displaying.
<NathanKell>
If you drag the green fill bar, the shape changes, it's just the display is rounding for, err, display
<taniwha>
standard engineering drawings are always in mm anyway
<Starwaster>
are there any bacteria that cause food poisoing that are NOT anaerobic?
<Bornholio>
yes botulism
<Bornholio>
in canned and jar food
<Starwaster>
any others are are thy mostly anaerboic?
<Starwaster>
OR
<taniwha>
so it makes sense to display full mm dimensions
<Bornholio>
most are aerobic, but botulism is prevalent and very toxic
<Starwaster>
just wondering how safe Dick Gordon's tuna fish really was
<taniwha>
if the can is not swollen, it's probably fine
<taniwha>
if it is swollen, incinerate it
<Bornholio>
its probably cooked very hard. never eat swollen cans
<Starwaster>
well I think it was one that he had opened and then had leftovers like 10 hours later
<taniwha>
/that/ would be a worry
<Bornholio>
botulism can be killed after the fact but the poisonn will remain
<Starwaster>
according to the transcript he said he didn't eat it but years later he said he didn't remember (and had to be shown the transcript) but he said he probably would have eaten it anyway
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: One other tooling question. I'm presuming it should probably be a function of the square of the diameter?
<Bornholio>
thats a good fast approximation
<taniwha>
NathanKell: for what purpose?
<NathanKell>
Right now I have d^2 + d + const for setting up main tooling, and then d^2 + d + l + const for setting up any given length (which is obvs much cheaper than the main, diameter, tooling setup)
<taniwha>
(I know a couple of things that may or may not be relevant)
<NathanKell>
taniwha: I'm adding tooling cost for proc parts
<NathanKell>
a lighter version of a full manufacturing mod
<taniwha>
hmm
<taniwha>
d^2 is good for most things as cutting is measured in cm^3/min
<taniwha>
so really, it comes down to the volume of material
<NathanKell>
Ok! Done for proc parts.
<NathanKell>
Let's see if it works
<NathanKell>
Pap how are things on your end? Can you do an export?
<taniwha>
thus cast parts that have been machined: drastic reduction of the amount of cutting required
<Pap>
Yes I can, I have nothing to show yet, but will export the rest
<NathanKell>
no worries :)
<NathanKell>
Ah wait crap
<NathanKell>
I forgot to make the tanks :(
<NathanKell>
Pap: Don't yet then
<Pap>
stopping
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<ferram4>
> Use reference, everything is fine
<ferram4>
> Have reference in function that is passed into an iterative thing, returns null
<ferram4>
Excuse me?
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7wVe
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 6cfdc96 NathanKell: Initial commit for tooling support
<NathanKell>
Pap: Also I suggest we just stop supporting the proc SRB. It's never going to work sanely...
<Pap>
That is correct
<Pap>
And I agree
<ferram4>
Come back to it when ProcEngines is further along.
<ferram4>
There is room for it in there.
<NathanKell>
:)
<ferram4>
So
<ferram4>
I see what I did wrong.
<ferram4>
As it turns out, trying to use Kerolox in a save that has no concept of kerosene or liquid oxygen is a problem
<NathanKell>
heh
<ferram4>
Uhh... it's just occurred to me.
<ferram4>
Where are the definitions for all those resources?
<ferram4>
Oh, CRP.
<ferram4>
Nvm
<taniwha>
egg|zzz|egg: floating point precision/rounding question: how does computing the volume of a tetrahedron using vertex coordinates compare against using edge lengths? Kahan doesn't seem to compare the two.
<taniwha>
(if that doesn't ping him...)
<Pap>
double (just to make sure)
<taniwha>
hehe
<taniwha>
trouble is, my source coords are float rather than double, but still
<taniwha>
(though I imagine doing as much math in double as possible is best)
<taniwha>
I wouldn't be surprised if it compares favorably as there are only 5 additions/subtractions for coords vs 18 for edge lengths, and that doesn't include computing edge lengths
<blowfish>
taniwha: I think your changes might have broken filling tanks by default
<taniwha>
*sigh*
<blowfish>
although if you put resources on the part it works I guess
<NathanKell>
Is anyone ingame? Can you tell me how much a 3.05m fairing base masses?
<taniwha>
blowfish: I blame Ialdaboath for coming in and making a mess of my nicely cleaned up code :(
<blowfish>
making an awesome mess, you mean
<Starwaster>
"That is the info I needed, the rest is just noise."
<taniwha>
awesomely unmaintainable :(
<blowfish>
Starwaster: too harsh?
<Starwaster>
no
<Starwaster>
sorry
<Starwaster>
I meant hell no
<blowfish>
:D
<Starwaster>
kudos for trying to help though, I threw in the towel on him awhile back
* NathanKell
smells FORUM DRAMA
<Starwaster>
Duh duh DUUUUH
<Bornholio>
.walksOverToDramaLand
<taniwha>
Starwaster: one of the reasons for the fresh start
<Starwaster>
what this about FS not being relevant anymore?
<blowfish>
not that it isn't relevant, just that it isn't the only purpose of the config anymore
<blowfish>
and I didn't want to add another iteration through the game database
<blowfish>
and did not come up with a better commit message in the time I allowed myself to think about it
<Starwaster>
and what about Ialdoaboath? Is he back or something?
<taniwha>
no, just bemoaning the damage he did to MFT/RF after I cleaned it up
<taniwha>
well, that's disappointing. blender's solidify tool does not give you walls of thickness X, instead it gives you walls where the vertices are separated by X
<taniwha>
except it /does/ have an option for face separation :)
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<taniwha>
(found it just after typing the previous)
<ferram4>
Gee ferram, I dunno why increasing the area ratio somehow increases the mass flow with a fixed exit area
<Bornholio>
lol
<Bornholio>
fighting something like that in calculating Trimodal, operation for NTR's
<xShadowx>
NathanKell|NOMZ: south wind clearing up a lot of the smoke around here, you're further north than me though, but hopefully it clears it quick for air show :)
<Bornholio>
my NTR single gas sectio turns out very accurate results and my bipropellant section (Supersonic flow) shits the bed
<ferram4>
I am getting surprisingly plausible results now.
<Bornholio>
\o/
<ferram4>
Although it's still not properly calculating something.
<ferram4>
Either the gas gen or the exit Mach, because those numbers aren't updating.
<taniwha>
exit from throat or from nozzle? (probably a silly question)
<ferram4>
Nozzle
<taniwha>
suspected as much, since throat should always be 1
<ferram4>
Acually, the exit Mach is updating, I'm not displaying it
<taniwha>
(if I understood my readings)
<ferram4>
I see the issue, it's not solving the gas gen
<ferram4>
It seems to believe there is no 0 there. Interesting.
<taniwha>
it's Roman ;)
<ferram4>
Oh.
<ferram4>
I see
<ferram4>
relative error
<ferram4>
But I'm not taking the abs of the division
<ferram4>
So both results are positive even though they're in different directions
<ferram4>
I see, I'M stupid.
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<taniwha>
Nice. I can put a solidify modifier on my models and leave it there. I've made it so disabling the render option on modifiers disables their effects when exporting :)
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<NathanKell>
o/
<NathanKell>
blergh. How the heck does S-II have a higher PMF than Centaur, *despite not being balloon*
<ferram4>
Does it have any guidance at all?
<NathanKell>
Ah. Right, Centaur guided the whole SLV-3C stack yeah?
<NathanKell>
If Centaur guidance is figured at 800kg instead of 200kg then it comes out ok
<blowfish>
NathanKell: one other thing is that S-II doesn't need a whole lot of helium because the J-2 can provide pressurization during burns, whereas the Centaur requires enough helium to pressurize the entire tank
<NathanKell>
Wish I could find mass breakdowns of Centaur
<NathanKell>
blowfish: Ah good point!
<NathanKell>
Hmm. Can't think of a way to model that in RF...
<NathanKell>
can you?
<blowfish>
I think they just need enough helium to start the engine once
<blowfish>
not really, unless we make tank pressurization actually matter
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<NathanKell>
I guess we could put a tiny reverse generator on the RL10s that consume a tiny bit of helium each second
<NathanKell>
and require helium in ignition
<blowfish>
it's not loosing that mass though
<NathanKell>
but there'd be no penalty to turning off a helium tank and then turning it back on right before ignition
<Bornholio>
tired of the new sounding rocket contract. not doing anymore, also many times the moderate is harder than the difficult 700+units vs 150unit slightly higher
<blowfish>
also, early centaurs had additional boost pumps which were powered by HTP, so there's that
<NathanKell>
ah right
<NathanKell>
That we might model as heavier RL10s.
<NathanKell>
Because S-IV would have restarted presumably, and would have required the same yeah?
<blowfish>
the HTP was dumped, so considering it a propellant might not be too unreasonable
<blowfish>
I know less about S-IV
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<blowfish>
S-IVb did of course restart, and IIRC it depressureized in the parking orbit
<blowfish>
although that seems odd to me - my recollection is that higher pressure increases the boiling point, reducing boiloff
<Bornholio>
itsa not increases boiling point that matters its temp diffentia * thermal conductivity leading to thermal transfer
<blowfish>
well, boiling point matters but yes it's not the only factor
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7wKk
<ferram4>
.tell SpecimenSpiff Listen, stop the methalox config generation you're doing. There's an important pair of values missing that I need. Ping me when you're back around.
<ferram4>
Ack, what's the tell start again?
<ferram4>
~?
<Bornholio>
!
<ferram4>
!tell SpecimenSpiff Listen, stop the methalox config generation you're doing. There's an important pair of values missing that I need. Ping me when you're back around.
<Qboid>
ferram4: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<taniwha>
skin volume is for calculating tank mass. ext volume for capacity (via utilization or can subtract skin from ext)
<taniwha>
the point is to ease cfg creation
<taniwha>
(why sit there calculating the mass by hand when the export script can do it for you:)
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7wKo
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 602f5dc Pap: ECM, Engine Configs, Part Placement Updates...
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<NathanKell>
AH! The dry mass figures for Centaur include residuals!
<NathanKell>
Unless Centaur D is way heavier
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<blowfish>
residuals == minimum fuel required to prevent the pumps from ingesting gas?
<ProjectThoth>
Ye.
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<SpecimenSpiff>
can you store camera data for return in a proc avionics core?
<Qboid>
SpecimenSpiff: ferram4 left a message for you in #RO [05.08.2017 05:00:39]: "Listen, stop the methalox config generation you're doing. There's an important pair of values missing that I need. Ping me when you're back around."
<SpecimenSpiff>
ferram4, you around?
<ferram4>
Yeah
<ferram4>
So, it turns out that I need the values for Specific Heat (const = p) at the injector and the nozzle exit as well.
<NathanKell>
blowfish: yeah, I would think so
<NathanKell>
It's "when the engine dies" anyway
<NathanKell>
s/dies/cuts off/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: It's "when the engine cuts off" anyway
<ferram4>
Trying to calculate that using ideal gas values I'm getting errors of >100% compared to RPA.
<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, get those values and add them as extra columns on the end of the columns that you already have there. Same as any othe rvalue.
<SpecimenSpiff>
can you update the picture showing which fields to grab in the instructions?
<ferram4>
...sure, but that'll take a fair bit of time.
<ferram4>
Because it means that I'll need to generate the config example as well.
<SpecimenSpiff>
ill do a run real quick and see if I can identify t he field
<Starwaster>
my least favorite activity... deorbiting a space plane and trying to actually get it somewhere near the landing strip
<blowfish>
ferram4: ideal gas meaning Cp independent of T?
<ferram4>
Yes
<blowfish>
might need a Cp vs T curve for each gas component then
<blowfish>
I started generating some for AJE but never really completed it
<blowfish>
doesn't RealHeat have something similar?
<ferram4>
Perhaps, but I want something quick here.
<SpecimenSpiff>
ah excellent, I was about ot post the very same thing, but on the higher temp fields, so I was wrong
<SpecimenSpiff>
I'll post up an initial skeleton config with one batch of numbers tomorrow for you to verify
<ferram4>
Well, one is the highest temp, one is the lowest.
<ferram4>
I need both.
<SpecimenSpiff>
im in the process of figuring out the ranges, once I have that, ill run the first batch
<SpecimenSpiff>
but right now im taking a break to do some film recon missions ;)
<ferram4>
Sure, go ahead.
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<ferram4>
NathanKell, so, something is wrong with my calculations. While I'm getting about correct thrust and gas-gen-ignoring Isps for an LR-79-sized thing, my calcs tell me that it requires a 3704 MW turbine to run it.
<ferram4>
Somehow, I do not believe that it requires 100x F-1 turbopumps to run.
<Starwaster>
O.o
<NathanKell>
:D :D
<ferram4>
The resource density for kerosene and lqdoxygen is in t/m^3, right?
<blowfish>
for KSP it's in t/l I think
<Starwaster>
yes
<Starwaster>
per liter
<Starwaster>
Strange that I don't know this, but what makes a part go *POOF* instead of *EARTHSHATTERINGKABOOM* when it explodes?
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<ferram4>
Hmmm... a factor of 1000 in density.
<ferram4>
Yeah, that'll fuck up the pump power.
<ferram4>
Starwaster, BlastAwesomeness, I think?
<SpecimenSpiff>
The "Antares" mission stack: http://imgur.com/a/PJB7l I thought of calling it Dos Equis, but that seemed too obvious. And Antares is the most popular Argentinian beer brand anyways
<xShadowx>
ferram4: the SR71 has its tail fins bent inward, so top/bottom of fin has closer to the same radius from CoM, as opposed to say F18 which which tilt out - im assuming tilting inward would have less effect on roll? vs outward more effect
<ferram4>
It actually isn't hooked up to an engine module yet
<ferram4>
I'm just letting the code run
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
That's...quite a high Isp. Are you assuming a high tech level here?
<NathanKell>
(for a GG engine)
<ferram4>
I am assuming happy spiffy ideal land where momentum losses in the nozzle do not exist.
<NathanKell>
Aha
<ferram4>
And where the reaction efficiency is 1
<ferram4>
Note that increasing the chamber pressure does, in fact, reduce vac Isp slightly once it gets above ~5 MPa or so.
<Starwaster>
what program?
<ferram4>
And for pressures around 25 MPa it's putting ~1/3 of the mass through the gas gen
<ferram4>
Starwaster, this? ProcEngines mod that I'm working on. Based off of numbers from RPA.
<ferram4>
Well
<Starwaster>
ah
<ferram4>
I am happy with this result, and so I am done developing for the night.
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<SpecimenSpiff>
thats nice progress ferram4. my concept when I was thinking of doing such a mod was much, much simpler: dial-a-thrust, isp, and burn time, with some configured restrictions on what you could pick based on tech level
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<xShadowx>
and out pops mass/cost?
<xShadowx>
heh
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<SpecimenSpiff>
man, peg loves to fly this rocket fast. about 40 seconds of streaming flames doing nearly 2km/sec down in thick atmosphere
<SpecimenSpiff>
flat, not fast. but its fast, too
<SpecimenSpiff>
nice, 200x200km orbit for 9,070m/sec, I had 220m/sec to spare
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<NathanKell>
!tell ferram4 remind me, do you set part.aerodynamicArea in the editor (i.e. when you voxelize in the editor)?
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<ferram4>
I should.
<Qboid>
ferram4: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [05.08.2017 07:50:31]: "remind me, do you set part.aerodynamicArea in the editor (i.e. when you voxelize in the editor)?"
<ferram4>
If I set part.aerodynamicArea at all
<NathanKell>
Oh wait, shoot.
<NathanKell>
You set it in MFI
<ferram4>
I see no setting of part.aerodynamicArea anywhere in FAR
<ferram4>
I do not believe there is any setting of aerodynamicArea in MFI either...
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<NathanKell>
Ah, I'm confusing it with radiativeArea sorry
<ferram4>
I thought that it was part of the system that I just did an end-run around because "fuck this, too complicated"
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
I meant radiativeArea, which you set in an MFI method from...something
<NathanKell>
I want to do insulation mass based on that in RF
<NathanKell>
I should be able to get it via reflection yeah? (Whatever you set radiativeArea to)
<NathanKell>
that is, you're not setting radiativeArea until flight, but the thing you set it to, that you should know from voxelizing yeah?
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<NathanKell>
Unless you *are* setting it in the editor, in which case \o/
<NathanKell>
yo schnobs, your dream is finally coming to fruition!
<SpecimenSpiff>
NathanKell, did you see the launcher I posted a little while back? Not as much a bastard child as the atlayorka from last career, but the thorski might work as well for its role
<NathanKell>
ah no!
<ferram4>
It's being run only in the MFI stuff
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Even where you calculate it? :\
<NathanKell>
not just when you pass it over to a part field?
<SpecimenSpiff>
although I think a proper thorski would have liquid boosters, not srbs
<NathanKell>
pic?
<SpecimenSpiff>
The "Antares" mission stack: http://imgur.com/a/PJB7l I thought of calling it Dos Equis, but that seemed too obvious. And Antares is the most popular Argentinian beer brand anyways
<ferram4>
Even where I calculate it, because I use MFI's fallback to the defaults in case something breaks.
<SpecimenSpiff>
I'm doing Corona missions, so I decided to riff on the fact that corona is a mexican beer
<NathanKell>
:)
<ferram4>
THe best you could do is grab FARAeroPartModule.ProjectedArea.totalArea
<NathanKell>
hmm
<NathanKell>
Other option is to just bind to the underlying tank part I guess, and get it from proc parts or SSTU or whatever
<NathanKell>
(and to heck with non-proc parts)
<ferram4>
The thing is, it's VERY difficult to get a number from this if you want to do it part-by-part.
<ferram4>
I mean, you also have to consider the effects of what happens if the radArea ends up being 0, as in something that's covered by a fairing.
<NathanKell>
It's worse the other way though, because that won't take occlusion into account at all
<taniwha>
NathanKell: non-proc parts can supply a number
<NathanKell>
ferram4: oh crap right
<NathanKell>
taniwha: Yeah
<NathanKell>
ugh, do we basically have to dragcube it then?
<NathanKell>
I want occlusion, except not for fairings :]
<taniwha>
heh, another use-case for disabling certain parts when voxelizing
<NathanKell>
But then we'd have to voxelize more than once
<NathanKell>
bad
<NathanKell>
ugh, but doing insulation mass based on volume is just so wrong...
<taniwha>
sounds familiar, doesn't it? :)
<taniwha>
(I find it funny how many rather different phenomena wind up being similar)
<taniwha>
aerodynamic drag - thermal "drag"
<NathanKell>
...heh
<taniwha>
gravity drag - heating a kettle
<taniwha>
(or cooling/heating a room)
<ferram4>
I am absolutely, NOT doing voxelization twice. One pass already takes too long to accomplish.
<taniwha>
you'll find a way to make both cases work. (reason for thinking so: the idea is in your head. one night you'll wake up with "ah ha!")
<ferram4>
No, there are no solutions here.
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<SpecimenSpiff>
I really suck at figuring out re-entry. it was nice and painless, but I landed in the middle of the saudia arabia desert, not off the coast of argentina...
<taniwha>
SpecimenSpiff: that's a long hike home
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<SpecimenSpiff>
The full mission album: http://imgur.com/a/PJB7l, three contracts and 61 science :)
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AWAY
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<Pena>
203 tons of moony goodness on the pad.. I'm a little nervous :)
<Pena>
Mechjeb is engaged, cat is in the lap, mother on speed dial... start countdown
<ProjectThoth>
Are we invited to the wedding?
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<Pena>
hmmm cannot make it to 300 km orbit... that second stage burn time is just too long at 7 minutes
<Pena>
I guess I must go higher
<taniwha>
Pena: you've been watching AvE
<Pena>
taniwha: oh no, another one :D
<taniwha>
:)
<Pena>
gotta shout Contact! every time I stage
<taniwha>
heh
<taniwha>
at least the camera is always in focus
<Pena>
woo I made it
<Sarbian>
uh, AvE ?
<Pena>
burning after the Ap was not as bad as I feared
<taniwha>
Sarbian: youtuber that does home-workshop stuff
<taniwha>
(but work(s/ed) as a field repair guy?)
<Sarbian>
ok
<taniwha>
very colorful, and has many interesting stories
<taniwha>
hates woodwork, loves metal
<taniwha>
oh, and does some /very/ interesting product reviews :)
<taniwha>
(by dismantling the things)
<Pena>
yeah, BOLTR is why I subscribed immediately
<Pena>
and who could resist loving a canadian ;)
<Pena>
hm, a successful launch,l the cat never flinched :)
<taniwha>
:) (to both)
<taniwha>
(I am one)
<Pena>
http://petti.kapsi.fi/random/KSP/Mun2/ I kinda panicked in the end and pitched up like 19 degrees max so a lot of steering losses unnecessarily there and then I failed to disengage MJ when I should have, but overall not bad for a first launch of this vehicle for me.
<Bornholio>
rokker they can read, cause they figured out how to use the pralidoxime chloride injectors to get high. carry the stuff for treating chemical warfare treatment.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7wjI
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev 564af66 Pap: Merge remote-tracking branch 'refs/remotes/origin/master' into dev
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<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* Good News / Bad News...Good News, I have easily added the domes to the SSTU tanks. Bad News, the models names change for the 1.3 version
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* I added the description qualifier for the Engine Configs. If a description exists, it will show in both the Engine Configs selection screen and in the PARTUPGRADE tech information.
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Bornholio>
pap why is there a build time even with zero parts
<Pap>
Hmmm, maybe there is a default setting so it is not NaN?
<Bornholio>
well it makes the sounding contracts on hard a net loss
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<Maxsimal>
a net loss? What do you mean? The costs aren't affected by build times..
<Maxsimal>
Are you testing with the new development version? You're supposed to set your money gain to 500% normal (so I guess 300% if you're on hard)
<Bornholio>
setting a sounding rocket core on the ground at the pad takes 1+261 funds and 5.4 days
<Bornholio>
I'll load and install the dev again, but its from this morning
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<Maxsimal>
Ok I dunno what's in which version now, but if you're playing with rollout costs, you're supposed to have a 5x contract payout multiplier set
<Bornholio>
set manually or is there something you have to do?
<Maxsimal>
but yeah, you should mention that to NK, the default BP cost may need to be factored out of the rollout costs.
<Maxsimal>
Set manually, for now
<Pap>
Bornholio: WE probably forgot to tell you that you are supposed to set Funds Multiplier and Funds Penalties to 300% to 500%
<Bornholio>
ah lol, thats why yesterdays play through was so hard
<Bornholio>
if so thats too much money for me
<Bornholio>
unless facilities costs are increasing
<Maxsimal>
It won't be too much money later - and facility costs/upgrade points costs are supposed to be 5x higher than before also
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
Maxsimal: See the resonant orbit calculator I made for you?
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Yup, just too a look! looks great, bookmarking - you really shouldn't have though. That one you linked earlier was good - only problem was that I didn't notice it should resonant orbits lower down the page
<Pap>
Maxsimal: It wasn't difficult and was a fun side project. I will wind up using it, so totally worth it for me
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Looks good though - how's it going today? I'm gonna start looking at plane contracts today, after I write up some thoughts I had about decouplers.
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Oh ok, cool! Yeah I always do com sats by launching a packet of satellites.
<Pap>
Today is going really good. We got a lot done last night (more NK than me of course). Things are coming together much quicker than I expected with the Entry Costs which is great. Testing will be important, but it will work out much better in the long run.
<Pap>
I am going to be off the grid for the rest of the day, so I will see you tomorrow most likely, won't be back till tonight. Have a good one!
Pap is now known as Pap|AFK
<Maxsimal>
Pap: You too!
<Bornholio>
party on garth
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<SpecimenSpiff>
ferram4, what label should i use for those two new values? or can I just put anything in that first row?
<SpecimenSpiff>
nvm, I see that row is a comment
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<SpecimenSpiff>
but confirming, you want specific heat for injector and nozzle exit?
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<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, yes. Put "Cpc" for injector spec heat and "Cpe" for exit.
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<SpecimenSpiff>
next question. im looking for the upper limit on lean. it says look for temp below 600k, and no liquids in the result. Do I want my limit to be when those appear, or the last one I check that doesnt have those?
<SpecimenSpiff>
for example of ratio of 55, I'm good, at 60 i have liquids
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<SpecimenSpiff>
which is my limit?
<SpecimenSpiff>
and I dont seem to have a fuel rich limit. at o/f 0.2, no carbon formed, at 0.1 it fails
<Bornholio>
with methane?
<SpecimenSpiff>
yes, im doing methalox
<Bornholio>
then it should not be soot forming, but make lots of carbon monoxides, at fuel rich not like its air combustion limits for pure O2 is 5.1%-61%
<SpecimenSpiff>
yeah, at 0.3 I get what looks like normal output, lots of outputs, at 0.2 it drops to about 4 outputs including water vapor, and at 0.1 it fails at low pressure, puts out liquid water at high pressure
<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, last one that doesn't have them, unless the mass fraction of liquids is very small. Check higher pressures for that limit, high pressure -> more liquid.
<SpecimenSpiff>
it looks like 0.2 is the limit, but since the guide calls for switching to the rich database when you get carbon, and I never get carbon...
<ferram4>
Basically, if it's still ~95% gas it'll be fine.
<SpecimenSpiff>
not sure what to do
<ferram4>
So you don't need to switch.
<ferram4>
What temp do you have?
<SpecimenSpiff>
at 0.2 ratio, 100 cp, 760k injector 559k exit
<ferram4>
Try 0.15.
<SpecimenSpiff>
forms water
<SpecimenSpiff>
615/464 temps
<ferram4>
How much by mass?
<SpecimenSpiff>
0.023 nozzle throat
<ferram4>
So 2.3%. Alright, set that as the fuel-rich limit.
<SpecimenSpiff>
by limit, do you mean quit at that value, or swap to rich at that limit and try a couple lower?
<ferram4>
If you're not forming carbon, there is no need to switch to the rich database.
<ferram4>
So quit at that value.
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<SpecimenSpiff>
ok, so take that as my richest sample, and 55.0 as my leanest sample
<SpecimenSpiff>
and I'm calling 1.5-6.0 the standard range
<SpecimenSpiff>
I'll commit to my fork in a minute and you can look it over and tell me what changes if any you want, and what additional samples
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<ferram4>
...1.5-6 seems like an awfully wide range, but sure, let's see what things look like.
<ferram4>
It looks like the ideal range is probably 2-4.
<ferram4>
What kind of steps do you have in between there? 0.1? 0.25?
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<SpecimenSpiff>
I was doing 0.25 at 2-6, if we narrow it I can go smaller
<ferram4>
Make it 0.1 between 2.5 and 3.5, otherwise have 0.25.
<SpecimenSpiff>
raptor is 3.9, that should be in the main range I would think
<SpecimenSpiff>
the only two engines I have data for are raptor at 3.9 and rd162 at 3.5
<SpecimenSpiff>
and the only other one I know of is be4, but no data on it
<SpecimenSpiff>
I can do 0.1 from 2.5 to 4.0 to get both of them and likely the be4, then go to 0.25
<NathanKell|AWAY>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell|AWAY: Pap left a message for you in #RO [05.08.2017 15:57:40]: "Good News / Bad News...Good News, I have easily added the domes to the SSTU tanks. Bad News, the models names change for the 1.3 version"
<Qboid>
NathanKell|AWAY: Pap left a message for you in #RO [05.08.2017 16:05:00]: "I added the description qualifier for the Engine Configs. If a description exists, it will show in both the Engine Configs selection screen and in the PARTUPGRADE tech information."
<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, alright, then shift it to be slightly leaner and take the data there.
<NathanKell>
!tell Pap* you rock! Awesome tanking and describing!
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: As of the buildings change I pushed, you can leave fund losses at their default for that difficulty level.
<NathanKell>
You only need to up fund gains.
<ferram4>
Hmm
<ferram4>
So, what should be next priority?
<NathanKell>
And yes, I did rejigger the costs of buildings a bit.
<ferram4>
Regen cooling, adding a different cycle, GUI, or trying to make a model?
<NathanKell>
GUI
<NathanKell>
then at least you can test, yeah?
<ferram4>
True
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Also I have some dlls for you.
<SpecimenSpiff>
I didnt see any provision for pressure/pump and ignitions in your sample last night, those are important
<ferram4>
The chamber pressure was handled, first item on the menu, and ignitions are trivial to add at the end
<ferram4>
So far it's only gas gen right now.
<SpecimenSpiff>
ok, so I do 0.25 between my rich limit and 2.5, 0.1 from 2.5 to 4.0, then .25 up to 6.0 what are good increments between 6.0 and the lean limit of 55?
<Bornholio>
what dlls? fun
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<NathanKell>
Bornholio: if you've pulled dev of RP-0 you have one of them
<NathanKell>
the other is RF
<Bornholio>
grab dev of RF then?
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: But I need to config the tooling thing in RP-0
<NathanKell>
RF git doesn't have dlls
<NathanKell>
lemme upload
<SpecimenSpiff>
how about 6.0, 10, 15, 25, 35, 45, 55 for the lean side?
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rOy
<github>
RP-0/Developmental e522943 NathanKell: Make ECM-parts actually apply
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: I'll need a few minutes to finish spec'ing the tanks
<NathanKell>
sorry
<Bornholio>
lol, i'll need a few minutes to patch.... again
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<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, 0.25 between the rich limit and 2.5 is probably a little too detailed. Take a look at the other configs that exist, and make a judgment call. That's part of why there's a human there.
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<Pap|AFK>
o/
<Qboid>
Pap|AFK: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [05.08.2017 20:07:54]: "you rock! Awesome tanking and describing!"
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<NathanKell>
Pap|AFK: Ah, on ECM-Parts. As you can see above had to fix it slightly. (a) you can't have values outside nodes, and (b) if they're going to be in their own file they might as well just patch the ECM node itself instead of doing a global patch--the global patch was because they'd only run inside other parts' patches, but the way you set up things that doesn't need to happen anymore
<lamont>
how do i get the orbit of the moon?
<NathanKell>
Pap|AFK, Bornholio, who had that great spreadsheet of battery weight over time?
<lamont>
or more accurately the CelestialBody object for the moon
<NathanKell>
lamont: You can trawl flightglobals for something of that name
<NathanKell>
flightglobals.bodies
<lamont>
ah yeah that was the class i was trying to think of
<lamont>
GetBodyByName(string) looks about right
<NathanKell>
yeah
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<Bornholio>
that was not I (Battery spreadsheet)
<NathanKell>
dang
<Bornholio>
I have a speadsheet with apollo LEM batteries in it
<NathanKell>
what kJ/tonne are they getting?
<Raidernick>
NathanKell, i have that info I calculated for mercury,nicd and zinc batteries based on a ton of research into probes
<Raidernick>
that their ratios are wh/lb are
<NathanKell>
Raidernick: Awesome!
<NathanKell>
can haz?
<Raidernick>
Mercury:NiCd:Zinc-Silver is 1:1.1:8.1
<Raidernick>
Mercury - 5.4 Wh/lb
<Raidernick>
NiCd - 6 Wh/lb
<Raidernick>
Zinc-Silver Oxide - 43.6 Wh/lb
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<Raidernick>
i use that to calculate batteries for all my probes
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<NathanKell>
cool!
<Raidernick>
i don't know if that applies to large and manned spacecraft
<Raidernick>
i can only guarantee it will work for old probes
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<Raidernick>
and NathanKell the way it works if i recall is the mercury runs the clock, nicd runs the communications antenna and the silver runs all the experiments and general electrical stuff
<NathanKell>
Ah yeah
<NathanKell>
Hmm. We're currently using 43.6 Wh/lb as our EC mass
<NathanKell>
Bornholio how do LM batteries compare?
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rs7
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 7fa4936 NathanKell: Add some new tank types to replace old in RP-0 (old still exist tho)
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<Pena>
wohoo, got a low circular moon orbit finally
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
\o/
<dxdy>
what kind of time is the next save-breaking ro/rp-0 release away?
<dxdy>
is it still wekks / months or is it going to be relatively soon
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
please not too soon :D am not too far from being able to launch my own Cassini
<Pap|AFK>
Weeks
<Bornholio>
tomorrow! JK, its not breaking anything right now its just massive balance changes
<Raidernick>
it won't be under after the r7 mix rate and tank changes at least
<Raidernick>
and i haven't even started on those
<Raidernick>
so a while
<Raidernick>
and that's just for ro
<dxdy>
mkay
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<Starwaster>
NathanKell hasAlternatePropellant? Was that for something unfinished? Or is that in some way functional somewhere?
<NathanKell>
sorry?
<NathanKell>
doesn't ring a bell
<SpecimenSpiff>
I heard discussion a couple nights ago about a release come the next new moon. but that might have been just principia, since thats how he schedules releases
<NathanKell>
That's principia, we aim to be about then
<egg>
moo?
<egg>
wherefore summoneth thou the egg
<egg>
SpecimenSpiff: they, there are two of uss
<UmbralRaptor>
Reminder that if you use Principia at Hanford, the update will darken the sun.
<egg>
s/ss/s/
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: SpecimenSpiff: they, there are two of us
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: yup
<Starwaster>
sirryt I thought maybe you had stuck that in (it's in Propellant class)
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: *and* you'll get a reminder heralding the update of the sun if you're near Nashville
<egg>
uh, the update of the sun?
* egg
confused
<ferram4>
NathanKell, more validation testing: assuming an overall efficiency of 0.9 for the thrust chamber, an engine with 7 MPa of pressure, a 3.7m nozzle, a 16:1 ratio running at 2.25 O/F burns 2.695 t/s, creates 6.877 MN at 260.2s at SL and 7.857 MN at 297.3s in Vac
<UmbralRaptor>
sudo apt-get update sun?
<NathanKell>
\o/
<ferram4>
That sounds surprisingly F-1-like to me
<NathanKell>
indeed
<ferram4>
I think the actual overall eff should be higher.
<ferram4>
And I need to account for extra losses due to backpressure
<ferram4>
Because SL Isp is spot on, but vac is off by ~2%.
<ferram4>
And probably sim regen cooling.
<Bornholio>
how does it handle the sidewall flow from the rich turbopumps
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<NathanKell>
Pap|AFK: Where did the engine config ECMs go?
<ferram4>
Bornholio, haven't added that yet. Probably slightly increases the efficiency and thrust, but not by much.
<ferram4>
Probably more the thrust than efficiency.
<NathanKell>
Pap|AFK: Oh heck I said column B was outdated but I was wrong. It's vital :\
<NathanKell>
Re-exporting
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rZT
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 2211f91 NathanKell: Screwed up the engines export
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rZt
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 3f8fdd7 NathanKell: Add the tank clones
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Ok, imma see if things work. If so, uploading DLL
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rZm
<NathanKell>
Note: Right now *only* ptanks are supported. Don't use other tanks. And I don't have tooling costs for fairings yet, but I will soon.
<Bornholio>
ok, so RF and RO/RP-0 refresh?
<NathanKell>
Welp. Throws galore.
<NathanKell>
Gotta debug
<NathanKell>
Sorry!
<smartdummies>
What does packet interval do for antennas?
<NathanKell>
Wait time between transmitting packets
<smartdummies>
i assume it is in seconds then?
<NathanKell>
Probably
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rnf
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 536665b NathanKell: Stupid typo in filename.
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<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rcl
<github>
RP-0/Developmental f59753e NathanKell: Fix some tooling issues. Also redo cost for now to just be a fraction of tooling cost, instead of fraction of part cost.
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<Pap|AFK>
How did the first test go NathanKell ?
<NathanKell>
BUGS
<NathanKell>
Pap|AFK: But I *think* I sorted them all
<NathanKell>
Final test
<Pap|AFK>
ah damn
<NathanKell>
(one hopes)
<Pap|AFK>
ah good
<Bornholio>
remeber RIO!
<NathanKell>
What's Goose got to do with this?
<Pap|AFK>
Goose dies by the end
<NathanKell>
Jeez man, spoilers!
<Bornholio>
those bugs droppin rocks
<Pap|AFK>
Sorry, that is my Meet the Fockers quote everytime it happens
<NathanKell>
:D
<Pap|AFK>
The Mobile Infantry has made me the man I am today (cut to a low shot of a guy missing both legs)
<Bornholio>
hate that movie
<Bornholio>
horrible attack on the original story
<Pap|AFK>
The movie came around for me at a good time in my life, I was just the right age
<Pap|AFK>
I have since read the book and really enjoyed it
<Bornholio>
if you liked SST, reading Armor is next on the list.
<Pap|AFK>
Downloading it now
<Pap|AFK>
I also like Old Man's War and Forever War
<NathanKell>
why the heck isn't this working >.>
<NathanKell>
It's purchasing ok I think
<NathanKell>
just not finding
<leudaimon>
o/
<leudaimon>
debugging the launch cost system?
<SpecimenSpiff>
Freehold is a good book in that vein also
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 2 new commits to Developmental: https://git.io/v7rCM
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 91879bd NathanKell: Fix new tank placement