<Starwaster>
ok, so the Apollo heat shield is supposed to have been overengineered, only losing a little of its bottom heat shield. But what about the top heat shield which was one quarter the thickness? Anyone think it would have survived if the bottom were only as thick as the top? Would it have failed?
<Bornholio>
they did plasma flow studies and scaled it to the heat impact from the study, then machined it to that thickness
<Bornholio>
cool video on the tube from the MFG
<Bornholio>
300 people filling hex cells with insulation until they were insane :P
<NathanKell>
Ok. I'm going to do the ECM changes in RF tonight
<NathanKell>
then we should be able to hook up and test
<NathanKell>
you mentioned earlier you'd put some of the stuff in the sheet?
<Pap>
Yes, what are you looking for?
<Pap>
In the Parts Tab, there is a column called ECM
<Pap>
That has the proper tags for all engines
<NathanKell>
yep, and the ECM tab
<NathanKell>
I see it, had to refresh >.>
<NathanKell>
coolz!
<NathanKell>
Ok. Since it seems like nobody really uses RF's ECM stuff except us, Imma rip it to shreds
<taniwha>
/dcc send NathanKell chainsaw
<NathanKell>
<3
<Pap>
Awesome
<Pap>
o/ taniwha
<taniwha>
hi, Pap
<NathanKell>
taniwha: I wrote it two years ago. and RF's probaly 2.5-3. Wow it's sooooo bad >.>
<taniwha>
the whole thing is a train wreck
<taniwha>
I did some work on MSC a few weeks back
<NathanKell>
This is only about half the real chainsaw. The other half has to come with 1.3 with switching over to the part upgrade system.
<taniwha>
don't think I've pushed anything yet
<NathanKell>
ah yah
<ferram4>
NathanKell, what percent H2O2 is the HTP RF has?
<NathanKell>
It's either 95 or 97
<NathanKell>
lemme check
<NathanKell>
(or 98)
<taniwha>
but not 102
<NathanKell>
96
<NathanKell>
>.>
<ferram4>
Hokay
<ferram4>
Go figure, RPA doesn't have 96%. >_>
<NathanKell>
Heh
<ferram4>
It does have 95 and 98
<ferram4>
Is it measured by mass or by volume (like weirdos)?
<NathanKell>
RPA is by mass
<ferram4>
I mean, our definition.
<NathanKell>
.431/.45 = 95.7% HTP I *think*
<ferram4>
96% H2O2 + 4% water by mass?
<NathanKell>
Ah wait
<taniwha>
there's also by Mol
<NathanKell>
I bet it's something sane by mass, and that weird thing by volume
<NathanKell>
hmm
<taniwha>
though I think that's usually Mol/L
<NathanKell>
so water 1 gcc, and HTP at 1.45gcc. Our HTP is 1.431gcc
<NathanKell>
so that implies 95.78% peroxide by volume, but as for by mass, dunno
<NathanKell>
AH
<NathanKell>
It *is* 97
<NathanKell>
it's 97 by *mass*
<NathanKell>
that explains why I had 97 in my head
<ferram4>
Okay, and it looks liek RPA does do things by mass
<NathanKell>
RPA does yes
<ferram4>
For the solution. At least based on the chemical formula its entries have.
<NathanKell>
so it's 2:1 98/95.
<NathanKell>
to equate to our HTP.
<ferram4>
Yes. Excellent.
blowfish has joined #RO
<taniwha>
NathanKell: I get 1.4307g/cc for 97%
<taniwha>
>>> 100/(97/1.45+3) 1.4306857424765662
<NathanKell>
I probably rounded in RF then
<ferram4>
Clearly, we should calculate the theoretical properties of 100% pure HTP and then have the engines run on a combo of HTP and water when they need it.
<NathanKell>
I thought about that for Aerozine and UH25 as well
<ferram4>
Bonus, we get to say we have an engine that runs on water.
<NathanKell>
But that complicates things on RF's side.
<NathanKell>
because at some point I want to calculate utilization, rahter than set it
<taniwha>
ferram4: heh
<ferram4>
Also for Proc Engines.
<NathanKell>
and that requires having everything that should be in a single volume as a single resource
<NathanKell>
(the WAC is already bad for this)
<ferram4>
Because I don't want to have to do weird shenanigans for biprops-that-look-like-triprops
<NathanKell>
yeah
<ferram4>
Incidentally.
<ferram4>
The only power cycle that doesn't require stupid iterations.
<ferram4>
Is pressurefed
<ferram4>
Fuck me
<egg>
ferram4: hm, I feel like you should bring your numerical problems to kspacademia
<ferram4>
When I have actual code.
<ferram4>
Currently I am looking at pseudocode and just saying, "really? You really had to?"
<blowfish>
NathanKell: If there's no way around another 1.2 release of RF then that's that, but I think, as part of that, if we really want to be able to make changes to RF then we need to make a serious effort to bring the RO ecosystem over to KSP 1.3. I don't see making releases for both as being sustainable for very long.
<egg>
ferram4: do bring it there when the time comes though, esp. since now we have bofh who can into numerics
<NathanKell>
blowfish: Yep, ferram4 is pushing hard on a 1.3 FAR :)
<NathanKell>
I'm making these changes in the 1.2 branch to test but if we're lucky we can just go straight to 1.3 with RO
<egg>
uuuh
<blowfish>
guess I should do AJE then :P
<NathanKell>
well, not so much lucky as ferram-blessed :)
<NathanKell>
heh
<egg>
so the thing is we hadn't planned on going to 1.3 in чебышёв
SpecimenSpiff has joined #RO
<egg>
should we?
<NathanKell>
egg: I really doubt 1.3 changed anything you rely on--it's worth at least a look?
<egg>
but then that would require the new RO to be out by the new moon
<egg>
because we really don't want to have a reminder popping up that says "pls update" and then users being blocked by RO
<NathanKell>
if ferram4 thinks FAR for 1.3 will be out in the next couple weeks than yes that will be happening. The new moon is what, 3 weeks now?
<NathanKell>
s/than/then/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: if ferram4 thinks FAR for 1.3 will be out in the next couple weeks then yes that will be happening. The new moon is what, 3 weeks now?
<egg>
NathanKell: ... you're in the US, you should know when the egglipse is :-p
<xShadowx>
!wa next new moon
<NathanKell>
!g when is the new moon
<Qboid>
xShadowx: next new moon: Monday, August 21, 2017
<egg>
NathanKell: other problem being users who might lag behind
<NathanKell>
yep, 3wks
<xShadowx>
2 1/2
<egg>
so I guess we'd have to dual-release? :-\
awang has joined #RO
<ferram4>
Barring a tester coming back with a call of "Hold Hold Hold" there will be a FAR release before the eclipse.
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Can you do that sheet in google sheets so we can all comment/edit?
<Bornholio>
ok
<NathanKell>
thanks!
<Bornholio>
I'll link the one Pap refered also
qwertyy has joined #RO
<taniwha>
ferram4: just did a 2-3h flight with no exceptions
qwertyy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
<taniwha>
just flying a plane, but still
<egg>
ferram4: principia#1502 opened to track this.
<Qboid>
[#1502] title: Update to KSP 1.3 | > <@ferram4> Barring a tester coming back with a call of "Hold Hold Hold" there will be a FAR release before the eclipse.... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1502
<ferram4>
taniwha, I did a mission to the Mun and no problems besides Re number being borked and needing to remove the lift modules from heat shields and pods.
<egg>
SpecimenSpiff: well principia is working already
<SpecimenSpiff>
I had it in my install, then dumped it when I saw it blow up NathanKell's RIS episodes
<SpecimenSpiff>
but I assume that's been long since fixed, that was what, 2 months ago
<SpecimenSpiff>
I want proc engines soooo badly. I spent two nights of play trying to make a light launcher for early career comms satellites, and couldnt come up with something that wasnt basically thor
<SpecimenSpiff>
anything else was either massive overkill, or hit 13g or so on burnout
<NathanKell>
Well, not quite done. Need to add unlocking tank types
<egg>
SpecimenSpiff: so on the 24th of june
<NathanKell>
But I'll wait for that for the 1.3 upgrade refactor
<NathanKell>
cuz they need that.
<egg>
SpecimenSpiff: anyway, if you want to play with principia Cayley should work alright (at least it has >1500 downloads and not many complaints)
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<NathanKell>
blowfish: Oh shoot I need to update my VS or something looks like?
<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, if you would like to contribute anything to it, please, go ahead.
<ferram4>
The sooner it's sorta-working the sooner we might get the attention of someone good at modelling that's willing to take lots of orders about stupid things to make the mesh properly flexible.
<Pap>
Alright, all engines now generate the PARTUPGRADES inside the spreadsheet
<Pap>
Time to delete all the extraneous data from the Engine Configs
<ferram4>
Although I'm thinking the best way for the nozzle (at least) is to generate it in-game like a ProcPart tank.
<SpecimenSpiff>
I didnt even know there was an actual project going
<SpecimenSpiff>
ive looked over the proc parts, real fuels, and proc avionics code a few times to try and get an idea of where to start
<SpecimenSpiff>
or is there one for the app I should do first?
<ferram4>
No, that's what I meant.
<ferram4>
Not exactly a tutorial though, just instructions.
<ferram4>
Specific ones.
<ferram4>
Also, check the other configs.
<borntosleep>
ferram what is lite version of RPA missing
<ferram4>
It doesn't do gas gen or preburner calcs
<ferram4>
It doesn't do turbine or pump calcs
<ferram4>
It doesn't size the nozzle or chamber for a given thrust.
<ferram4>
It's just an unsized, magic "the fuel comes in and burns and then goes out" calculator
<Pap>
Ah yes NathanKell when I changed it away from the formula substituting the "." and "_" I forgot to add the names back in
<borntosleep>
ok, no use for me then unless i buy it, does the trial last long?
<NathanKell>
Pap: No worries, solved. :)
<ferram4>
It's a month, I think?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Can you do me a favor? Go through the old ECMs file and make note of what we currently ECM (the type of part, i.e. "The Mercury capsule" or "2m Avionics ring" or "Vostok" - I've lost track of what other than engines we ECM.
<NathanKell>
I'm working on the engine bits now
<borntosleep>
thanks
<SpecimenSpiff>
so, following the bit on determining ideal ratio, I get the same result with expansion of 10 and 100, just more pronounced arc at 100. and looking up specs on the raptor, I see that it's not quite at the optimum, but reasonably close. So I assume I'm doing it more or less right?
<SpecimenSpiff>
and the one step "set freezing at the area ratio to a small number, somewhere between 1.3 and 3." ... DO I just pick a value at random in that range, or is there something I can read to learn what that means and what to pick?
ProjectThoth has joined #RO
<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, for O/F, yeah, that's about right. For the freezing ratio, uh... use 2. It's a good enough compromise.
<Pap>
Sure thing NathanKell give me 20 minutes and I'll work on that
<NathanKell>
thanks!
<NathanKell>
Crunching through the Rocketdynes...
<SpecimenSpiff>
so if I understand this process, I pick an o/f ratio, run calc at a chamber pressure, then repeat for a range of chamber pressures. then repeat with that same range of chamber pressures for another o/f ratio, and another...
<awang>
Uhhh
<awang>
Has anyone seen anything like this before?
<ProjectThoth>
Looks like a screenshot, I've seen plenty of those.
<NathanKell>
Pap: Also LR101-NA-11 should unlock in 62, but I'm not sure how to change that on the sheet, I followed the bread crumbs but in Parts it looks like it's indexing something?
<NathanKell>
ah nm think I found it
<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, yes. And collect all the necessary data in a config so that I can use lookup tables.
<NathanKell>
yep! \o/
<awang>
ProjectThoth: -_-
<Pap>
nice \o/
<Pap>
All you should ever really have to edit is the Year
<NathanKell>
...wait why I am doing this in text.
<NathanKell>
Pap: I am entrying the engine configs. Where on the sheet should I be doing that?
<Pap>
The entryCosts?
<NathanKell>
They're no longer entrycosts
<NathanKell>
they're now stuff that should be put in @ENTRYCOSTMODS
<Pap>
What would they be considered?
<Pap>
Ah, ok
<NathanKell>
e.g. `LR89-NA-6 = 2500, Navaho-TP-1962`
<Pap>
Will the engines still have a cost?
<NathanKell>
Yes
<NathanKell>
but the entry cost will be defined elsewhere (sorry)
<Pap>
Ah, I understand
<NathanKell>
a CONFIG will now just have a cost and techrequired
<NathanKell>
the entrycost will be by looking up that configname in ENTRYCOSTMODS
<NathanKell>
because it will no longer be a number, it'll be complex data
<Pap>
So you only need the entry costs for the ECM's I did earlier?
<blowfish>
NathanKell: sorry, was AFK
<blowfish>
I think I added C#7 syntax which requires 2017
<NathanKell>
blowfish: Ah. That would explain it
<NathanKell>
I guess I can get that from work, but for now I just redid the 3 lines involved :]
<NathanKell>
In addition to the stuff I did last night
<NathanKell>
blowfish yeah but I'm on 2015Pro now that I have Daddy Warbucks backing me
<xShadowx>
anything of value in 2017?
<NathanKell>
Pap: You can see how those lines would be better served in the same row as the other engine config data in the sheet :)
<NathanKell>
I'm on 2015 at work too atm, we saw no need to upgrade yet for our team
<Pap>
Yes, that would make sense
<xShadowx>
.....now we know you're using a language in vs2015.....
* xShadowx
writes down clue
<xShadowx>
im horrible :P
<UmbralRaptor>
xShadowx: Colonial Mustard in the server room with a blade.
<NathanKell>
Is there a Metropolitan Mustard too?
<xShadowx>
UmbralRaptor: s/ia/e
<Qboid>
xShadowx thinks UmbralRaptor meant to say: xShadowx: Colonel Mustard in the server room with a blade.
* UmbralRaptor
has no idea why it isn't spelled "kernel"\
<UmbralRaptor>
s/\//
<NathanKell>
IIRC it derives from Coronel?
<UmbralRaptor>
(I mean, besides the fact that English isn't actually an alphabetic language.)
<NathanKell>
Yeah. It's from Old Italian Colonnello (the officer at the head of a column), then to Middle French Coronnel (hence the 'r' prononciation), but eventually the spelling reverted to 'l'
<NathanKell>
and English kept the old French pronunciation but took the new French spelling.
<NathanKell>
>.>
* xShadowx
has learned something
qwertyy has joined #RO
* blowfish
has relearned that English makes no sense
<SpecimenSpiff>
As has been said, English mugs other languages in dark alleys and rifles their pockets for loose vocabulary
<UmbralRaptor>
This leads to fun things like "ph" having 3 different pronounciations, depending on context.
<NathanKell>
James Nicoll ftw!
<UmbralRaptor>
Phone, Stephen, Phuket
<UmbralRaptor>
And -ough... or th...
<NathanKell>
Pap: Where are config costs outputted?
<Pap>
Engine Config costs are not output yet, I need to create a add-on to the bottom of the Engine Configs sheet for that
<NathanKell>
Ah gotcha
<Pap>
Let me finish this and I will get that done
<NathanKell>
I have an idea to simplify that tab
<NathanKell>
I'll do it in tab O
<NathanKell>
s/tab/column/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: I'll do it in column O
<NathanKell>
s/n O/n H/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: In the case of, say, the LR79 it's more complicated, since it gets a moderate subtraction from equivalent LR89 configs and the full value of predecessor LR79 configs, up to a maximum of [all previous LR79 configs + some portion Hf its equivalent LR89 config]
<NathanKell>
...
<NathanKell>
you know what I meant
<NathanKell>
ah I need a new tab anyway
<NathanKell>
Pap: There, done.
<NathanKell>
Pap: Ok, column D in ECMs will now generate all engine configs. You can replace the ENGINE_CONFIGS sheet.
<NathanKell>
Just make sure to add a } and then on the next line a }, after you paste the column
<NathanKell>
It's one huge patch inside a single @PART now
<NathanKell>
Faster, and lets us handle the costs and techs easily.
<NathanKell>
Ah, except it also needs the *@ line in addition to the two % lines.
<NathanKell>
But I gotta nomz
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|NOMZ
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
Pap: Sorry I think we collided
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
I added the *@ part thing
<Pap>
LOL, that is not eating :)
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
I screwed the tabs tho
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
ok, now for realz
Hohman has joined #RO
<Pap>
NathanKell|NOMZ: From before, I found that the *PARTUPGRADE tag worked best outside of the @CONFIG, so I moved it out and fixed the tabs
qwertyy_ has joined #RO
qwertyy has quit [Ping timeout: 201 seconds]
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
You can't do that in this form of patching though
<Pap>
Ah, because it is not inside of the actual engine module?
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
This applies the patch to all parts, the only type specific bit is the CONFIG bit
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7awD
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev cba24da Pap: RD-107/108 Global Config Changes...
probus_ has joined #RO
Probus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
Pap: Looks good to me!
<Pap>
Excellent news
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
Pap: What did you mean by the *@ bits working better outside CONFIG ?
<Pap>
I actually don't know, I think I just did that so I could group them all together and create them easier (when I was doing it directly in the files)
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
Ah gotcha
NathanKell|NOMZ is now known as NathanKell
<Pap>
All of the PARTUPGRADE information has been removed from the Engine Config files. Time for a test
<NathanKell>
\o/
<ferram4>
FWIW, the dev build of FAR should work fine, so if you need to do an all-up test of RO you're good.
<NathanKell>
\o/
<Pap>
NathanKell: Is there any reason to keep Cost, entryCost, ECM's or techRequired in the EngineGlobals? Would they ever be used for RO and not RP-0
<NathanKell>
I'm going to finish this refactor of entrycost on 1.2 and then port RSS and the others to 1.3 I think
<NathanKell>
Pap: EngineGlobals?
<NathanKell>
Ah
<NathanKell>
Nope, they should all be removed
<NathanKell>
It's all in DA SHEET now
<Pap>
That is what I thought as well. RO should absolutely not work in Career mode without RP-0 so none of that matters
<NathanKell>
Indeed
<NathanKell>
Ah, question, what's the cyan highlighting for cost and entrycost?
<NathanKell>
And what's the green highlighting for configs?
<Pap>
Those were ones that I wanted you to take a look at because they were out of whack compared to the changes we made (or non-existent)
<Pap>
Green Highlighting for configs can be removed, that was for when I created the PARTUPGRADES originally in the individual files
<NathanKell>
ah gotcha
<NathanKell>
cool!
<NathanKell>
Oh, there is one final change to make to the engine config outputting
<NathanKell>
(and to the PARTUPGRADEs)
<NathanKell>
We have column E in parts
<NathanKell>
We should, if it is not blank, do %description = <that cell> in the @CONFIG
<Pap>
Yes, that would be great to include
<Pap>
I will make that change
<NathanKell>
And we should replace the boilerplate description in the PARTUPGRADE with it if it exists.
<Pap>
I added descriptions to all of the RD-107/108 configs I made because they are damn confusing on which LV they belong to
<NathanKell>
:)
<NathanKell>
Much appreciated!
Senshi has joined #RO
<Pap>
It all works!
<NathanKell>
Woohoo!
<NathanKell>
Oh *#%@
<Pap>
uh-oh
<NathanKell>
we have two LR43-NA-3s.
<Pap>
That has to be a naming issue
<NathanKell>
It's not a problem in RO, I think it's just a typo in the sheet
<Pap>
One is the LR43-NA-3
<NathanKell>
yep
<NathanKell>
fixed
<Pap>
One is the LR-43-NA-5
<Pap>
I probably copied wrong
<Pap>
Nice catch!
<Pap>
I am surprised how little errors there actually are in the Sheet considering the scope of the transferred information
<Raidernick>
NathanKell, I noticed all the r7 configs were renamed and new added
<NathanKell>
yep! Pap's bringing them in line with yours
<Raidernick>
are they all using the same mix rate?
<NathanKell>
They should be using your mix rates, yeah, with the exception of HTP being added
<Raidernick>
ok because the mix rate before was incorrect despite mine missing the htp
<NathanKell>
yes
<NathanKell>
they've been, I believe, fixed to use yours.
<NathanKell>
Unless you mean *yours* were incorrect, in which case we're *all* screwed :D
<Raidernick>
ok then sometime in the next week or so I'll start redoing my parts
<NathanKell>
Awesome!
<Pap|Sleep>
I didn't change the mixture rate to the one you have been using. I can, it is an easy fix, but what should the breakdown be with the HTP as well?
<Raidernick>
NathanKell, can we do one last 1.2.2 release for RO?
<Raidernick>
after that
<NathanKell>
Pap|Sleep: The kero and lox should change to raidernick's
<NathanKell>
The HTP rate should be unaffected, I think
<Raidernick>
i am on a holdup currently for updating my parts because if I update the changes I made will break RO
<Raidernick>
and if i don't update RO is still broken
<Raidernick>
but in a different way
<Pap|Sleep>
That puts it above 1.0 however
<NathanKell>
fine
<NathanKell>
they're relative
<Pap|Sleep>
OK, it doesn't matter then?
<NathanKell>
correct
<NathanKell>
stock's are .9 and 1.1 remmber :)
<Pap|Sleep>
OK great, I'll fix them in the morning.
<NathanKell>
Cool!
<NathanKell>
We probably need to reverify the HTP mixture rate at that point though
<NathanKell>
Given a known quantity of HTP and a known ground run + flight time, we should be able to calculate HTP flow rate
<NathanKell>
and thus its ratio
<Raidernick>
so NathanKell after those engine configs are squared away and I fix all the r-7 tanks and such we can do a release for 1.2.2 again to deal with those issues?
<NathanKell>
Ok. We'll cherry-pick back the R-7 changes in that case then
<Raidernick>
I removed a ton of model files and bloat from RO also
<Raidernick>
i want to make sure that's gone
<NathanKell>
yeah
<Raidernick>
i had stuff there to fix the KK packs
<Raidernick>
but I made him include it in his future releases
<Raidernick>
so i took it out of ro
<NathanKell>
ah k
<Raidernick>
NathanKell, i really wish there was a way to make "stock" subassemblies work
<Raidernick>
it's a serious pain in the ass
<Raidernick>
that they can only be installed in the save folder
<Raidernick>
unlike craft files
<NathanKell>
yeah...
<Raidernick>
is there a reason for that
<NathanKell>
ask JPLRepo? :]
<NathanKell>
(sorry JPLRepo :p But for once the request benefits stock players too)
<Raidernick>
it sure as hell does
<Raidernick>
it's something i've wished had been there since subassemblies were introduced
<Raidernick>
JPLRepo, a stock subassembly folder like exists for ships
<Raidernick>
right now they can only be installed in a specific save folder
<NathanKell>
I.e. KSP\Ships\Subassemblies
<JPLRepo>
oh. you mean an overall one? not by save?
<Raidernick>
yes
<NathanKell>
That behave like the stuff in KSP\Ships\VAB or SPH
<JPLRepo>
think that's been on the list for a while
<NathanKell>
(i.e. appear only when 'use stock vessels' is on)
<Raidernick>
as NathanKell that's definitely not RO specific or even mod specific
<Raidernick>
it's useful for straight stock
<JPLRepo>
I've always wanted them to be just treated like ships constructs.
<JPLRepo>
or vice versa
<NathanKell>
^^
<NathanKell>
But that's a bigger refactor :]
<Raidernick>
JPLRepo, they can already be loaded as ships
<Raidernick>
just not without moving stuff around
<JPLRepo>
yeah.. not sure anything can be done at this point in time.
<Raidernick>
it would be nice to have it ingame yeah
<JPLRepo>
lots of surprises for the expansion though
<Raidernick>
but having the generic subs would be nicer
<NathanKell>
JPLRepo: Ah. Gotcha. :)
<JPLRepo>
probably could go on the list for that.
<Raidernick>
JPLRepo, well i hope that's not a dlc only thing
<Raidernick>
imo it's more of a core game feature
<JPLRepo>
I think people are confused by DLC
<JPLRepo>
in order to do a DLC you have to update the core game to support the DLC
<JPLRepo>
that's all I can say on that.
<JPLRepo>
;p
<Raidernick>
it's not like i need to pay for it so w/e
<Raidernick>
i just don't like it when you have a core feature that you rely on that not everyone has access to
<JPLRepo>
I mean the first DLC needs core updates doesn't it.
<Raidernick>
but if you say that's not the case
<Raidernick>
ok
<JPLRepo>
There's no intention to pack everything into a paid DLC
<Raidernick>
you can blame EA for poisoning the public perception of dlc
<JPLRepo>
this aint EA
<Raidernick>
i don't trust anyone
<xShadowx>
dlc doesnt by definition req core game update, dlc can be as asimple as what mods already do, from a cfg file + model, up to accual code :P
<JPLRepo>
this one is bigger than that
<xShadowx>
<JPLRepo> in order to do a DLC you have to update the core game to support the DLC <- refuting that, not 'this case' <3 :)
<JPLRepo>
gotchya
<JPLRepo>
I'd love to tell ya... all.. but kinda can't
<xShadowx>
well....accually you could
<Raidernick>
as i said i don't do hype so personally i don't care at all what it does as long as it doesn't alienate players
<JPLRepo>
my NDA hands are tied
<xShadowx>
mind land poor and in jail, but it isnt a cant :P
<NathanKell>
!tell Pap* another duplicate: LR87-LH2-TitanC. This is because it appears in two engineglobals. I think at this point we should just remove it from the regular LR87 part so it's only on one, and if people really want to use a twin-LR87LH2 as one part we can either tell them to use SHIP or clone the FASA or RN one.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Raidernick>
NathanKell, i missed that convo before, you said it doesn't matter if you use a 2.47 mix rate and then make htp over 1?
<NathanKell>
P_ap was talking about KSP's 'ratio' lines not adding up to 1.
<NathanKell>
Not the actual real mix rate
<Raidernick>
does that actual mix rate matter though
<Raidernick>
is it limited
<NathanKell>
I'm not sure I understand, the real life mixture rate is....the real rate
<NathanKell>
It's usually something like 1.9-2.9 for kerolox, with 2.2 common for fuel-rich and 2.5-2.8 for ox-rich
<Raidernick>
i meant does the rate need to be 1 in total
<Raidernick>
or can it be more
<NathanKell>
In KSP? or in real life?
<Raidernick>
in ksp
<NathanKell>
It can be anything
<Raidernick>
ok i was asking if that was what he was asking
<NathanKell>
it's just ratios
<NathanKell>
yes that's what he was asking
<NathanKell>
stock KSP itself uses 0.9/1.1 as its fuel/ox ratios
<NathanKell>
so rather more than =1.0
<NathanKell>
It's just been RF practice to render them out to equal one because that's easier for us to interpret
<Raidernick>
that's what i've been doing until now
<NathanKell>
but KSP don't care
<Raidernick>
i didn't know i didn't have to do that
<NathanKell>
You more or less get an equal-to-one sum of ratios when you convert from mass to volume ratios anyway
<NathanKell>
IIRC
<NathanKell>
right?
<Raidernick>
yeah
Shoe17 has joined #RO
<NathanKell>
!tell Pap* uh the AJ10-Early engine global config still has partupgrade stuff. Are others also lacking the changes?
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7a6A
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev bf51d25 NathanKell: Tweak AJ10-118 vac Isp per Ed Kyle
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7aiR
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev 8e960bd NathanKell: Update X-405H from Ed Kyle's numbers.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7aig
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev 07f127e NathanKell: Forgot the TF config.
* xShadowx
sees spam and smiles
TM1978m has joined #RO
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7aPR
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev a9f5173 NathanKell: Holy crap the X-405H was supposed to relight.
Guest6726 has joined #RO
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AWAY
qwertyy__ has joined #RO
qwertyy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 201 seconds]
awang has joined #RO
Moistmelon has quit [Ping timeout: 201 seconds]
Hypergolic_Skunk has joined #RO
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
awang has joined #RO
TonyC2 has joined #RO
Guest6726 has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
Guest6726 has joined #RO
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
ProjectThoth has quit [Quit: ++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. ++?????++]
Maxsimal|Work has joined #RO
<Maxsimal|Work>
o/
awang has joined #RO
Technicalfool has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
o/
qwertyy_ has joined #RO
qwertyy__ has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
Shoe17 has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
qwertyy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
Maxsimal|Work is now known as Maxsimal
<Maxsimal>
Tell check
Maxsimal is now known as Maxsimal|Work
Starwaster has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
<Pena>
dang it, something cuts my main engine throttle to 0% at T=8s just a couple of seconds after I release the clamps... not good.
<Pena>
The engine right-click menu shows current throttle 0% but the throttle control in the bottom is 100% and no failures reported by test flight :/
Pap|Sleep is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [04.08.2017 06:04:46]: "another duplicate: LR87-LH2-TitanC. This is because it appears in two engineglobals. I think at this point we should just remove it from the regular LR87 part so it's only on one, and if people really want to use a twin-LR87LH2 as one part we can either tell them to use SHIP or clone the FASA or RN one."
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [04.08.2017 06:30:41]: "uh the AJ10-Early engine global config still has partupgrade stuff. Are others also lacking the changes?"
<Pena>
I spool the RD-108 to max power, fire the solids and then decouple, rise off the pad a second or two and then the main engine cuts.
<Pena>
I guess I'm gonna lose a pad
stratochief_ is now known as stratochief
<Pena>
and have dinner, my brain works better with food :) ->
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pena: Is your throttle being forced to 0, or is the engine shutting off while throttle is open?
Guest6726 has quit [Ping timeout: 201 seconds]
<Pena>
Maxsimal|Work: Throttle should be wide open at launch
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pena: No I mean, when your failure happens - is it happening because of throttle down, or because of engine shutoff? Ifit's the former, it's a MJ issue. If it's the later, you can look at the right click menu of the engine, might say what's up - might be TF, might be lack of a necessary resource
<Pena>
the only difference to a normal launch is I told MJ to launch to the moon's plane
<Pena>
Maxsimal|Work: the screenshot I just pasted has all that visible
<Pena>
test flight shows engine ok
<Pena>
and it happened again after revert so it was not a single glitch
<Maxsimal|Work>
hrmm odd.
<Maxsimal|Work>
yeah I dunno, maybe Pap or NK will be able to help
<Pena>
I should somehow get better telemetry logging for a bunch of stuff to track if the throttle bounced to zero or something
<Maxsimal|Work>
Oh, one thing - try turning off the RO special handing option in Mechjeb, I've had trouble with that
TonyC has joined #RO
TonyC2 has quit [Ping timeout: 195 seconds]
<Pap>
Pena: I have had issues with using launch into target plane. Others have had it work fine, but I don't use it because of problems I have had
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pena: why do you have the throttle minimum of 100% enabled? and can you check the 'Utilities' window of MJ?
<Pena>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Not sure, it's just been that way and worked so far. I'll try when I get back home.
<Pena>
Pap: perhaps I launched a bit ahead of the intercept and passing T0 for the launch reset the tjrottle briefly or something
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pena: was it for something in Earth's orbit? if so, you can use MJ's rendezvous-planner and wait for the target inclination to reach near 0
riocrokite has joined #RO
<Pena>
I guess I could just use the launch to target pane to get the launch time and inclination and then shoot tjere manually. going for a lko moon plane
<Pena>
*leo
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
MJ sometimes gets the time wrong for me, so I more or less stopped using timed launches. for anything in Earth orbit, Rendezvous planner will give you the timing, you just have to launch manually
<Pena>
thanks, I'll try that
dpbk has joined #RO
dpbk has left #RO [#RO]
schnobs has joined #RO
Guest6726 has joined #RO
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* I agree on the LR87LH2 config. I will remove it as I go through the Engine Config files for clean-up today.
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
rsparkyc has joined #RO
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 195 seconds]
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* It looks to me like the AJ10_Early doesn't have the Upgrade stuff in there? However, I will review everything as I clean them all up on a second pass today.
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: That is the SMA, so an orbit would only be 6051km. Doesn't seem too high to me. Also, give yourself a little extra height for safety margins
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
before I click that link, I want to understand :p on the website i linked, r is the distance from the centroid (center of the triangle) to the center of the opposite side. which would be equal to the radius of Venus, correct?
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: From what I understand of it, yes, but remember in KSP, orbits are used from the surface. The Semi-major Axis (SMA) is from the center of the planet, and that is what you calculated
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
duh!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
haha
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
now that you mention it :p
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
thanks!
<taniwha>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I suspect we have all made that mistake
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I indeed forgot to subtract r from R
<Pap>
For sure I have
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
6500km it is then!
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: But remember, any height of orbit will create an equilateral triangle as long as your orbits are all at almost the same height and your eccentricity is as close to 0 as possible
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
that's the plan. three comsats with identical orbits on the same plane, 120 degrees phased
<Pap>
Nice
<Pap>
taniwha: I am watching, do you play with any contract packs?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
taniwha: you're streaming?
<taniwha>
not at the moment
<taniwha>
just trying out NH before getting serious
<CobaltWolf>
whoa
<CobaltWolf>
so, after taking a moment to properly build the shader in Maya (I normally do my diffuse in Maya, then do the specular and normal in Unity), I realized how bad the default KSP materials are for metal.
<CobaltWolf>
Like, they aren't doing nearly as well as a blinn phong should, and I haven't been tweaking the setting to get the proper look
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: though I can't find the RSS part
<borntosleep>
go to the last tab, set it there
borntosleep is now known as Bornholio
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
fml
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
thank you :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
that is gorgeous!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
and it's even got RO antennae values!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
well, some
<Bornholio>
I usually manualy add the ones i'm working with
<Bornholio>
make sure you set to root and multiplier 1 also
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yep!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: favorited :P
<Bornholio>
I put the link in the RO wkii for RT
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk and Maxsimal|Work It is a great site, but I like the cleanliness of the Resonant Orbit Calculator that was linked. I am going to duplicate it for RSS and host it on a Git Stie
<Pap>
s/Stie/Site
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: Hypergolic_Skunk and Maxsimal|Work It is a great site, but I like the cleanliness of the Resonant Orbit Calculator that was linked. I am going to duplicate it for RSS and host it on a Git Site
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: which will make comsat orbit injection a piece of cake, nice!
Hohman has joined #RO
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: I didn't even scroll down to see that there was a resonant orbit planner, cool
<Pap>
Does anyone in here know how the Test Flight Engine Configs are calculated?
qwertyy_ has joined #RO
qwertyy has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
<xShadowx>
i looked once, that patch NK made for it scared me
TM1978m has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Xyne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<Pap>
lol
dxdy has joined #RO
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7V4c
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: can you check whether the node 'Improved Hydrolox Engines' in your install requires 'Near Future Era Material Science' and 'Reusability' ?
awang has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
according to the map, it's 'Early Hydrolox Engines' and 'Lunar Exploration Era Materials Science', but under 'Requires All' it only lists the one I mentioned
<Pap>
It requires Early Hydrolox and Advanced Capsules Materials Science
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Do you have CTT installed?
<Bornholio>
looks messed up. Cummunity Tech Tree if you don't have it
<Bornholio>
community
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
not sure why it's missing, I never played without it
<Pap>
You should not have Community Tech Tree
Starwaster has joined #RO
<Pap>
But I don't think that is the issue
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
'should not' ?
<Pap>
Can you look in the config files for me?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
sure, just a sec
<Pap>
Correct, you should NOT have it
<Pap>
Go here...\RP-0\GameData\RP-0\Tree\RP0Tree.cfg
<Pap>
s/\RP-0\G/G
<Bornholio>
pap ... no CTT? mine looks fine with it
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: in that file, the requirements are as you said
<Pap>
Bornholio: it is not necessary. But it shouldn't cause any real issues. I delete all tech nodes, so there are no duplicated issues from mods adding nodes, etc
<Pap>
ok Hypergolic_Skunk , let me look at something...one sec
<Bornholio>
ok one more mod to remove, yeah
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Bornholio: :D
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Look at the ModuleManger file
<Pap>
GameData/ModuleManager.TechTree
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
also correct
<Pap>
ok, one more sec
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: You broke it. I have no idea!
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Look in your save file
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:P
<Pap>
search for techName
<Bornholio>
do you have a double RP-0 install , lose a RP-0 folder into another?
<Pap>
Is earlyHydrolox fully unlocked, or just in queue?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
early is fully unlocked
<Pap>
And how about Materials Science Advanced Capsules?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
same
<Pap>
Bornholio: do you have access to your KSP right now?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Bornholio: I don't think so. the last time I installed RP0 was like.. two, three weeks ago? and clean, as in: deleted the old folder
<Bornholio>
loading it now
<Pap>
Can you please check to make sure this isn't some persistent bug that no one has caught?
<Pap>
Yay! I am just really happy that you didn't bork your save @Hypergolic_Skunk
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
nah, Bornholio .. a couple of weeks old
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: so am I! D:
<Pap>
Everyone will get a release version soon TM
<Bornholio>
kay new startnode icon
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
although I'll definitely restart the career on release
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:O I have actually unlocked the E-1 <3
<Bornholio>
pap silly idea, as ususal, have rev number on startnode icon so you can see when people failed to version check the install correctly. then update the icon each time so its a "Hard" indicator. Feel free to ignore though :P
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7Vum
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev 39b3f4b Pap: Fix Fuel-Oxidizer Ratios for RD-107/108...
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7Vu3
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev 77394ed Pap: Move B9 Configs into Suggested Folder
<Pap>
Bornholio: That is actually a good idea, I just worry that it is one of those things that forgets to get updated and we then run into that problem of trying to debug :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so, Pap ... I have launched 15 comsats to various orbits, but I still get neither Geostationary Constellation Contract nor GPS constellation contract offered. what am I doing wrong ? :P
<Pap>
Many things (as referenced above) /s :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D
<Pap>
Did you launch the original 3 or 4 satellite constellation?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yep!
Guest6726 has joined #RO
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: There are 2 different ComSat repeatable contracts, the more advanced one is the one that needs to be completed 3 times
<Pap>
the early one is called Communications Test Satellite, the more advanced one is called Communications Satellite
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
the one that requires Tundra, Geostationary, Molniya and Geosynchronous orbits?
<Pap>
Have you been doing the Communications Satellite ones? (the more advanced ones)
<Pap>
Yes
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah. I think I did TWO of them :p
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
let's build number three, then
<Pap>
That "should" be why (I make no guarantees about anything with an RO/RP-0 build)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
hm... I wonder if I'll be quicker in my career once RP0 is released. would definitely love to do Pioneer and Voyager
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* Can we please, please, please release the next version of RO/RP-0 for 1.2.2 the same day that 1.3 drops, just to troll everyone?
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Btw dunno if you noticed, but nightingale put up a new CC version with a fix for you
<Pap>
Damn, jokes don't work when you don't use the correct numbers 1.3.1, duh
leudaimon has joined #RO
<Pap>
I did Maxsimal|Work, there are like 5 fixes that he has made for us, but they are sitting out there that will work once we hit 1.3
<Maxsimal|Work>
:( I don't want to go through another upgrade to a higher KSP version.
<Pap>
I know Maxsimal|Work, I know. From what JPLRepo was saying last night, we are going to have some rather major changes (for the better) when they drop the update that coincides with the DLC
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Hrmm have a link to a post on this? Or was he chatting here?
<Pap>
He was chatting here. He obviously didn't reveal anything, but I know that NK speaks highly of him and trusts him
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 closed pull request #661: Added Bluedog Design Bureau parts to tech tree. (master...master) https://git.io/vHcS0
<Maxsimal|Work>
Well, sounds good, although the long-ass hiatus of no new RP0 updates would be painful. Probably less painful than 1.1.3 to 1.2.2 since 1.2.2 RP0 is much more stable but still painful.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
no TestFlight config for the AJ10 Advanced? is that something still coming, or working-as-intended?
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Once NK and others that know things about the TF Configs come around, I will create them. There are also none for the SSME. I want to make sure I am using proper values instead of just guessing though.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh, I totally agree :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
and I hope you take some major time off after release, so you don't end up hating KSP :p
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I cannot hate KSP, I don't get to play it at all! lol
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D
<Pap>
I am kidding
<Pap>
I actually enjoy modding it more than playing it some days
<taniwha>
Pap: I've almost always enjoyed programming more than playing games
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yeah, I totally understand. KSP RO/RSS/RP-0 is actually quite a bit of work even when only playing it
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I just want to fast-forward my career sometimes, but then I get into a new dev cycle, or get corrupted saves and need to restart. Once this release is completed, I am going to really enjoy having a long-term career to play and attempt to put boots on the Moon and Mars, and to explore the outer planets with orbiters and probes
<Maxsimal|Work>
Yeah - tbh I enjoy thinking about the rocket I'm going to build moreso than actually flying it a lot of the time.
<Pap>
taniwha: For sure. Every game that I have given more than 3 months to, I wind up modding it to some extent
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: I expect many screeenshots and even some streaming! I dont want to miss the moment you become a multi-murderer when slamming your poor Kerbal minions into Martian ground :p
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Ever play CK2?
<xShadowx>
nobody plays ksp, thatd be silly, its a platform to mod atuff
Guest6726 has joined #RO
<Maxsimal|Work>
Right now a cross-over mod/wedding between CK2 and KSP would be my dream game. I'd call it Game of Rockets. I picture it a bit like Wings of Honneamise, nations struggling to go to space with janky rockets, or backstabbing each other to prevent it - a space colonization rush that mirrors the politics of Late Medieval or Rennaissance Europe...
<xShadowx>
someone was makin a crossover mod for factorio to ksp
<Maxsimal|Work>
Have a link for that xShadowx?
<xShadowx>
nope
<xShadowx>
was like a yr ago, he was in chat plannin it, dunno much beyond that
<Maxsimal|Work>
Gotcha. Well, if anything is going to incentivize me to start getting into programming for KSP, doing something with manufacturing would probably be it.
<xShadowx>
well various ksp mods add mining and production (not much for RO, ISRU is wip though), not to discourage coding new methods, simply saying some methods exist :)
egg|zzz|egg is now known as egg
dxdy has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
TonyC has quit [Quit: Goodbye.]
aradapilot has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
SpecimenSpiff has joined #RO
dxdy has joined #RO
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
NathanKell|WORK has joined #RO
awang has joined #RO
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: most likely no streams, but even more likely, many deaths
awang has joined #RO
<Pap>
Maxsimal|Work: I tried to get into CK2 a little bit, but I couldn't immerse myself into the worlds and the people. I have always had that issue with games. I am the guy that during these amazing games with well-done and scripted movies (essentially) tries to skip every cut scene to get on with the gameplay
<Pap>
Like the mods I created for KSP before coming to RO were all based on history. I like trying to "simulate" history to a degree. My other biggest modding projects in Civ2, Total Annihilation, and Supreme Commander were all WWII Total Conversions. I created a Desert Storm mod for Red Alert way back when as well
<Pap>
So worlds that ask me to immerse myself and care about the characters, I always struggle to identify with
<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Interesting - I get the wanting to skip cutscenes, but that's what made CK2 great, it's all gameplay.
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
<Pap>
Right, very much so. I even tried to fix that immersion issue that I had by playing the Game of Thrones CK2. But, once my favorite person died, I once again became uninterested
<NathanKell|WORK>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [04.08.2017 13:30:14]: "I agree on the LR87LH2 config. I will remove it as I go through the Engine Config files for clean-up today."
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [04.08.2017 16:12:07]: "Can we please, please, please release the next version of RO/RP-0 for 1.2.2 the same day that 1.3 drops, just to troll everyone?"
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [04.08.2017 13:30:57]: "It looks to me like the AJ10_Early doesn't have the Upgrade stuff in there? However, I will review everything as I clean them all up on a second pass today."
Hohman has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 54.0.1/20170628075643]]
awang has joined #RO
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Huh. Last night they were still in there. I musta messed up somehow
Hypergolic_Skunk is now known as Hypergolic_Nap
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: It is possible that I didn't push it correctly, they are for sure fixed now
<Pap>
All costs and technology entries are removed from the Engine Configs
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah gotcha :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
well, solved now! :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
I believe I did all US stuff through 1962 or so.
<NathanKell|WORK>
The Russian stuff I didn't get to yet
aradapilot has joined #RO
<Pap>
Awesome
TonyC has joined #RO
aradapilot has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<NathanKell|WORK>
I didn't export yet tho, it's all in the sheet
aradapilot has joined #RO
<Pap>
Yeah, I made some more changes as well, I'll export before I head home for the day, Google Sheets changes formula references when rows get moved, added or deleted, so it is easiest to have to rebuild all the formulas only one time
<NathanKell|WORK>
ok
awang_ has joined #RO
<taniwha>
o/ (still up. streaming, btw)
<taniwha>
:/ at the still up
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
awang_ is now known as awang
<xShadowx>
taniwha: you stream? ksp?o.O
<taniwha>
2nd time
<xShadowx>
linky?:3
<Pap>
What is the name of the color style that is like this: 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 1.0?
<Pap>
RGBA is based on 255, 255, 255, not three digit decimal places though, isn't it?
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
Right
<leudaimon>
the fourth number is the alfa channel isn't it?
<Qboid>
leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 07:09:35]: "yeah those times are too short."
<Qboid>
leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 08:37:16]: "I tweaked the preset."
<Qboid>
leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 07:10:09]: "What I did was greatly reduce the 'fixed cost' that used to make even sounding rockets take a while--now it's closer to linear. But I need to up it..."
<awang>
I was thinking you were asking about a 4-component color style
<UmbralRaptor>
Hopefully it's not CMYK.
<taniwha>
Pap: RGBA can be 0..1
<Pap>
Thank you
<taniwha>
0..255 is just 8-bit
<taniwha>
per channel
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
Guest6726 has quit [Ping timeout: 201 seconds]
awang has joined #RO
Maxsimal|Work has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
SpecimenSpiff has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
<Pap>
Oh damn, I almost forgot, NathanKell|WORK I want to create TF configs for the SSME and the AJ10_Adv. What is the proper way for me to get the correct values to use?
<NathanKell|WORK>
1 - (total number of flights where an engine of that type failed / total number of engine uses)
<NathanKell|WORK>
So for the AJ10 adv, there's 1 engine per lfight. Say there are 20 flights, 2 failures (one first stage, one AJ10 failure).
<NathanKell|WORK>
that means the reliability is 1 - (1/19)
<NathanKell|WORK>
except we also add fudge per IIRC some Bayesian method? add one to numerator and 2 to denomator
<xShadowx>
RGBA can also be 0..1, when its 8 bit per channel, 0.5 = 127
<NathanKell|WORK>
uh, and should be flipped to success, sorry
<NathanKell|WORK>
so 18+1 / 19+2
<NathanKell|WORK>
SSMEs are used 3 at a time
<NathanKell|WORK>
And ground light, so are used every flight
<NathanKell|WORK>
so there's it's just (# flights where no SSME failed, *3, +1) / (number of flights * 3, +2)
<NathanKell|WORK>
That gives you total historical reliability. Now, if there's a trend, you set the initial values to the early part of the trend, and the late values to the late part. If there's not, you decrease them slightly for the starting values, and increase them slightly for the ending values.
<leudaimon>
the +1 and +2 are there to have no 0s in engines that that never failed, right? you end up with 50% if both values are 0
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah basically
<NathanKell|WORK>
And also to still have a failure chance for an engine with a perfect record
<leudaimon>
exactly
<Pap>
That is awesome information, thank you!
schnobs has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
<leudaimon>
NathanKell|WORK, is this success chance split throughout the burn time for each flight?
Hypergolic_Nap is now known as Hypergolic_Skunk
dxdy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dxdy has joined #RO
qwertyy_ has joined #RO
qwertyy__ has quit [Ping timeout: 201 seconds]
qwertyy__ has joined #RO
qwertyy has joined #RO
qwertyy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 186 seconds]
qwertyy__ has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell|WORK: FYI, whenever I have a launch vehicle ready (not even rolled out yet), restart the game and then try to launch the LV, I get a bug as if the game forgot about KK. (weird perspective on load, unable to do anything). just wondering if you've encountered the same.
rsparkyc has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon: Sorry, what do you mean?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I've not yet launched from a KK pad so dunno
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah ok
<awang>
Does RO do anything with EVA fuel?
<awang>
Or decaying RTGs?
<leudaimon>
NathanKell|WORK, the probability of failure is set for a burn for the entire rated burn time and if you have a shorter one it is lower, or does it work differently?
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: awesome :)
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: For Rated Burn time, something like the SSME, do I set it to some outrageous amount because they can be re-used, or does TF not care after one flight is completed?
<awang>
Also, does Dynamic Battery Storage conflict with any RO stuff?
<awang>
Apparently it's a dependency for Near Future Electric
<awang>
And some other mods
<awang>
But since RO tweaks the electrical systems in KSP, I wasn't sure if it would conflict
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Leudaimon instantaneous failure rate is fail chance during burn / rated burn time
<Pap>
Interesting, I don't actually know
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Pap use the single flight time
<NathanKell|AWAY>
They had to be extensively overhauled after use
<Pap>
Sounds good
<awang>
NathanKell|AWAY: ^ Any idea?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Never heard of that mod
<awang>
:(
<awang>
NathanKell|AWAY: Does RO change how KSP handles EC? Or does it just scale the amounts up/down?
<awang>
Or something else?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Scales, mostly. What does the mod do?
<awang>
Apparently it fixes some kind of bug with background electricy consumption
<awang>
at high timewarp
Maxsimal has joined #RO
<awang>
"Without it some of the larger cryo tanks (say anything above ~40-50 Ec/x draw) will start malfunctioning at high timewarp due to the stock resource handling."
schnobs has joined #RO
<Pap>
NathanKell|AWAY: OK, now that I have the resulting Reliability number, do I set that as the midpoint of the values, or is that the maximum achievable?
rsparkyc has joined #RO
rsparkyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
rsparkyc has joined #RO
<NathanKell|WORK>
awang: Ah. Yeah. Makes sense. Depends on how it works then.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: I'd set it as the 80% point on the curves, so you can do a bit better but not too much
<NathanKell|WORK>
so if it's, say, .999 then I'd set it to be from .992 to .9995 maybe?
<Pap>
So like the first RS-25 has a rate of 0.887 for ignition
<Pap>
Nevermind, I forgot to take into account the fact that those missions still happened, so it is 0.897059
<awang>
I can't seem to figure out exactly is going on in there, though
<awang>
I think I need to catch up on sleep...
<awang>
And in what way is background EC consumption broken for high timewarp?
<awang>
This is the first I've heard of it
<Bornholio>
the model changes to analytic mode
<Bornholio>
its always been broken
<lamont>
Pap: it looks like there were 5 pad failures in 405 engine-missions which is 98.76% success
<awang>
Analytic mode?
<Pap>
lamont: Yes, but we have 4 different versions of the engine in RO. So the RS-25 had 2 pad failures in 22 flights and the RS-25A had 3 in 47 flights
<Bornholio>
any time warp x1000 or past stops doing physics calculation and does analytic calculations and will likely oscillate
<lamont>
ah
<Pap>
The RS-25C had one failure and the RS-25D had 0
<Bornholio>
that includes thermal and resource use
<awang>
So instead of consuming x amount per timestep it's determining consumption through a "normal" mathematical equation?
<awang>
Why is that problematic? I thought analytic solutions should provide more precision than ones from numerical calculations
<Bornholio>
it doesn't, pretty simple it uses an approximation method that is fast
<Bornholio>
and since boiloff involves having an accurate temp, boiloff fails to be accurate, and poof goes hydrogen
<NathanKell|WORK>
Bornholio: That's just for thermo
<NathanKell|WORK>
awang is talking about EC
<NathanKell|WORK>
resource use never goes analytic
<NathanKell|WORK>
that's the problem
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
So you get large timesteps -> less accurate?
<NathanKell|WORK>
if you produce 10,000EC and try to consume 8,000EC but you only have 2,000EC worth of storage, your consumption will think it's only getting 25% of what it needs
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
Hm
<NathanKell|WORK>
Same issue with jet engines and flameouts btw
<NathanKell|WORK>
just how KSP's resource model owrks
<NathanKell|WORK>
works*
<NathanKell|WORK>
first-come, first-serve, and all resources have to be in storage
<awang>
Huh
<NathanKell|WORK>
Presumably what dynamic battery does is temporarily increase storage capacity in warp to avoid that problem.
<awang>
Can't change the calculations themselves?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Not without rewriting a remarkable amount of code, no.
<awang>
Ah
<NathanKell|WORK>
That would literally require rewriting how resources *work*
<NathanKell|WORK>
I mean, I've thought about it, as has RoverDude
<NathanKell|WORK>
dunno what current plans are there
<NathanKell|WORK>
basically you need to go to a 'pool' model where consumers and producers register
* xShadowx
did that for his LS mod
<NathanKell|WORK>
The problem you run into is multistep production, where one producer relies on the output of another producer
<awang>
This is surprisingly complicated
<awang>
Or at least it seems to me
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Which is why KSP uses the simple system
<NathanKell|AWAY>
With all its faults
<xShadowx>
my LS mod analyzes the ship, and forms 'groups' for all the kerbals that drain from a pool, then drain resource once, so no 1 kerbal can starve the rest, all split the oxygen available at that point evenly :)
<Rokker>
NathanKell|AWAY: damn, Aerojet Rocketdyne is doing something right
<Rokker>
they are up 14% in the stock market today
<Bornholio>
they had a good earnings report
<Rokker>
Bornholio: yeah im reading it now
<Pap>
Damn, this shit is fun! Figuring out TF values and digging into things that I did not previously have a clue about
<Pap>
Overcharging the US Government for rocket engines = PROFIT
* Rokker
rolls eyes
<Pap>
lol Rokker
<Pap>
There were 0 F-1 Failures, is that correct?
<ferram4>
Do we count the test stands?
<dxdy>
:D
<Pap>
Nope
<dxdy>
then 0 failures and a lot of broken windows^^
<ferram4>
Aw, so no hilarious combustion instability.
<Rokker>
Pap: well...
<Bornholio>
Pogopogopogo!
<Rokker>
no wait
<xShadowx>
NathanKell|AWAY: the trouble i run into with my pool, is during timewarp, solars make ec, kerbals starving for ec, 1 is going to calc before the other ;\ not both in a single calc heh
<Pap>
Yes, there was a lot of pogo, that is true, but that is not really simulated in TF
<leudaimon>
didn't 1 F1 have to be shut off early once?
<Pap>
leudaimon: I thought so as well, but what I read said that it was a J-2 on the S-II
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: thought it was only J2s that got pogoed to death
<awang>
Wasn't that Apollo 13?
<ferram4>
And Apollo 6, IIRC.
<Pap>
^^^ Yes to both
<ferram4>
Apollo 6 is like, worst-case scenario for the S-II where it still survives.
<Bornholio>
it started in first stge, was solved then J-2's on Apollo 13
<Pap>
I would have to re-watch the movie, but I thought the movie got it wrong about the F-1 shutting down early
<soundnfury>
Pap: the movie (correctly) shows a J-2 shutting down early IIRC
<NathanKell|WORK>
xShadowx: that's the complicated part, you have to de-order things.
<Bornholio>
but pogo was there in all, they just didn't make it a problem
<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, on the bright side, figure out all the reaction rates and you actually end up with the beginnings of a combustion calculator. \o/
<soundnfury>
and a good thing it did, too — if the computer hadn't noticed a low chamber pressure and decided to shut down on general principles, it would have ripped the thrust frame apart
<Bornholio>
gemini V had almost .4 g of pogo
<leudaimon>
apollo 6 had some engine failures too didn't it?
<Rokker>
leudaimon: america has never had a failure
<Rokker>
u are fake news
<Pap>
leudaimon: 2 J-2's on the S-II shut down early, the J-2 on the S-IVB failed to reignite
<Pap>
^^^ for TLI
<leudaimon>
yeah... J-2's might have fairly low reliability in TF then, right?
<Pap>
I actually don't know. I will review them
<ferram4>
Probably needs a few more tests than average.
<NathanKell|WORK>
ferram4: awesome work man! :)
<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, well, no. I haven't done anything. I'm just mentioning that if you do the work for a resource system that properly handles producers and consumers you've basically got a combusiton calculator right there.
<ferram4>
With all the intermediate reactions in play.
<ferram4>
Ya know, the things that actual determine whether something's a slow burn or explosive.
<NathanKell|WORK>
ferram4: Oh I misunderstood, sorry!
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yeah, makes sense now...
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: Hopefully last question about this, the techTransfer field. I know what the comma means, in separating the configs to transfer from. Is the number after the ":" mean that that is the max Percentage of data that will transfer?
<soundnfury>
Pap: iirc it's the fraction of the transferred data that you actually get
<soundnfury>
so if old had 8000du and transfer is :50, new gets 4000du
<soundnfury>
(regardless of the R&D limit)
<Pap>
That's what I thought
<Pap>
Thank you for the confrimation
stratochief has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
stratochief has joined #RO
<soundnfury>
Pap: that said, it's entirely possible I'm wrong too ;)
rsparkyc has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury is correct Pap
awang has quit [Quit: leaving]
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7wtd
<github>
RealismOverhaul/dev cc392a4 Pap: TF Configs for SSME...
<Bornholio>
pap when is a good time to grab master for the weekend? do you have a bunch queued up for the evening?
<Pap>
Bornholio: are you working from the Dev Branches?
<Bornholio>
was not yet, doe you need testing to move to that?
<Bornholio>
do
<Pap>
That you will want to ask NathanKell|WORK about. Do you think it is ready for testing? Otherwise Bornholio I have stopped pushing any updates to the Masters, it is all developmental for now
<Bornholio>
enough change in dev side to need focus to push back to eadrly stuff? just got back to lunar manned era
<Bornholio>
early
awang has joined #RO
<Pap>
Bornholio: Oh yeah, things are COMPELTELY different now with the Launch Costs
<Pap>
NK said he thinks he has the costing done for all engines up to about 1962 for the US
<Bornholio>
.sigh okay time for a clean install i think. pick one partmod any partmod pap
<NathanKell|WORK>
Once I get home and fix RD10x, and the non-engine entrycosts, it'll be good to go.
<NathanKell|WORK>
*definitely* needs testing early now yeah
<Pap>
^^^ This guy spits some truth
<NathanKell|WORK>
We, uh, rewrote it all Bornholio :]
<NathanKell|WORK>
Not the tree, but the whole cost model.
<Pap>
lol, he definitely did
<Bornholio>
or NK what partmod ... i'm DLin now
<NathanKell|WORK>
However I will need to upload some testing DLLs.
<Pap>
FASA and SSTU for engines I think
<NathanKell|WORK>
FASA shouldn't be needed for engines, instead get SHIP.
<Bornholio>
ok will do. I have to say FASA antenna's never worked for me this playthrough
<NathanKell|WORK>
although, crap, that SHIP LR91 is borked. We'll have to fix it with a fake transform unless we can get someone to fix the mu
<NathanKell|WORK>
Are you going US, Russian, or mix?
<Bornholio>
doesn't matter, i can alternate or pick one
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ok. Then I'd say SSTU definitely. If US, SHIP and FASA
<NathanKell|WORK>
If RU, RealEngines.
<NathanKell|WORK>
So my bare minimum todo before people can really start testing is:
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7wmN
<NathanKell|WORK>
1. Crank out the new tank definitions and parts.
<NathanKell|WORK>
2. Do the quick-and-dirty tank tooling mod
<NathanKell|WORK>
So Pap I might ask you to do the rest of the entry cost stuff then? All that's left is finishing the RD10x line and then doing the non-engine parts
<Pap>
That will be doable on my end
<NathanKell|WORK>
I realize on reflection that we probably should have released last week, before doing all this again. But we needed to do it, it's easier than feared, and leads to only one save-breaker. :]
<NathanKell|WORK>
Awesome Pap!
<Bornholio>
what is the save breaker?
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: you mean besides all of the moneys changing?
<Bornholio>
well that doesn' break, just failes fo balance
<Bornholio>
fails
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: just so you know, you can pry FASA from my cold, dead hands
stratochief_ has joined #RO
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: ^_^
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
stratochief: o/
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: but SSTU has better Apollo-era engines, and SHIP has better Titan engines, and frankly BDB has better Atlas engines.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Bornholio: We redid the cost model completely, I'm redoing the tanks to have actual progression (and names that make sense), and it will cost money to set up toolings for proc parts
<Pap>
So it turns out the J-2 TF config is bad, very very bad. Will fix those now, do the costs later
<NathanKell|WORK>
(so if you've never used a highly-pressurized 2m x 3m tank before, pay a bunch to 'unlock' it)
<NathanKell|WORK>
heading home early, see you all in a bit
NathanKell|WORK has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
stratochief has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
<Bornholio>
so tweaking a tank is out .sad
stratochief_ is now known as stratochief
<soundnfury>
!tell NathanKell* wait, unlock 2m x 3m? I thought the plan was just tooling per diameter?
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Big cost for diameter, small for stretch
<Qboid>
NathanKell|AWAY: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [04.08.2017 21:32:24]: "wait, unlock 2m x 3m? I thought the plan was just tooling per diameter?"
ProjectThoth has joined #RO
<soundnfury>
btw, has anyone ever done a procedural engines mod?
<Pap>
soundnfury: ferram4 is currently working on one
<ferram4>
Slowly getting there
<soundnfury>
Pap: oh, is that why he's doing combustion simulation?
<Pap>
Yep
<soundnfury>
trying to actually calculate performance from chamber pressures and things?
<ferram4>
Yes.
<soundnfury>
that sounds like very much the Hard Way, so good luck with that
<ferram4>
In practice, using RPA to generate representative engine data and then extrapolate from there for larger nozzles.
<ferram4>
Thrust just scales uniformly with size so that's easy.
<soundnfury>
but I'm tempted to do a simple one that just interpolates using numbers from historical engines
<ferram4>
The difficult part will be career integration.
<ferram4>
There's a problem with that, given how much mixture ratio, area ratio, and chamber pressure interact. And that's before getting to the cycle design.
<soundnfury>
ferram4: I was thinking more like, you can build a half-sized LR105, or scale it up to 500kN, but the latter will be expensive because you're pushing closer to the engineering limits.
<ferram4>
So tweakscale for engines?
<soundnfury>
but if you want to build something other than a straight scale-up (or -down) of an existing engine, then you would indeed need all of the RPA
<soundnfury>
ferram4: well, but with an unlock cost per point design
<soundnfury>
kinda like the unlock costs for ptanks
<ferram4>
Except the nasty thing is that it should be as expensive as creating a new engine design.
<soundnfury>
well yes
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
speaking only for myself here, having Procedural Engines would result in me not experimenting with other engines
<soundnfury>
but then, if you want, you can develop a 120%-scale LR105 _instead of_ the original LR105
<soundnfury>
and that should cost about the same, maybe a little more
<ferram4>
More.
<ferram4>
A fair bit more.
<Bornholio>
everything becomes sacels of SSME :P
<ferram4>
Larger combustion chamber -> nastier combustion instability to solve.
awang has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<soundnfury>
"Costs scale primarily with parts count, thinness of margins, and nearness to the leading edge of technology, but only very weakly with size."
B787_Work is now known as B787_300
<lamont>
you should probably be able to pay to increase the burntime of engines
<soundnfury>
combustion instabbity getting harder is more a qualitative thing that happens when you scale things up by an order of magnitude, I think
<ferram4>
And as we know, the F-1 development was a cakewalk compared to everything before it, and the RD-107/108 were single thrust chambers for the same reason.
<UmbralRaptor>
stabbity?
<UmbralRaptor>
Oh. No stab today. Stab tomorrow. Always stab tomorrow.
<soundnfury>
ferram4: like I say. Order of magnitude
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: stab yesterday, and stab tomorrow, but never stab today?
* UmbralRaptor
guesses that soundnfury never watched Babylon 5.
<ferram4>
...the RD-107 originally only produced ~2x the thrust of an A-4 engine. That's nowhere near an order of magnitude.
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: you guess correctly
SpecimenSpiff has joined #RO
<soundnfury>
ferram4: I'm a programmer. The base of the counting system is 2 :P
<soundnfury>
anyway, while I totally don't have any hard numbers, I believe that ceteris paribus the scaling of cost with design thrust is sublinear.
<soundnfury>
and if I do make this mod, it will embody that assumption.
TM1978m has joined #RO
qwertyy has quit [Ping timeout: 186 seconds]
NathanKell|AWAY is now known as NathanKell
qwertyy has joined #RO
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: any opinions on the ^^ discussion?
<NathanKell>
I'm with ferram4: It's clear from the historical record that bigger is Hard and Costly.
<NathanKell>
F-1 has much worse TWR, worse performance than you'd expect for its chamber pressure, and costs *way* more per kN than E-1 would have, and H-1 did.
<NathanKell>
You can get around the combustion instability by adding more chambers, which ups complexity and cost again.
<NathanKell>
And it's not just "above 2MN things break down", as ferram4 mentioned there's the whole RD-105/6 to 107/8 thing.
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: Hmm. In that case, we really need to do something to model the problems with clustering
<soundnfury>
because otherwise there's not that much point in ever unlocking bigger engines when you can just cluster more and more little ones at cheaper per kN
<Pap>
soundnfury: Are you saying that test flight is not enough?
<soundnfury>
Pap: well, it doesn't do common-mode failures
<soundnfury>
if anything, a big cluster is better because you have engine-out capability
<Pap>
ELI5 common-mode failures
<soundnfury>
one engine blows up and takes three more out with it
<Pap>
ah, so larger scale destruction, got it
<NathanKell>
Pap: To start can you draw up a list of what we ECM, and what we should that we don't, that (a) aren't identical parts, and (b) aren't engines?
<Pap>
Yep
<soundnfury>
Also, large clusters are difficult and expensive to develop because, you may have simplified the combustion chamber engineering by making it smaller, but now you have more structural interactions between engines
<soundnfury>
vibrational modes, torque combinations, all that stuff
<NathanKell>
yeah
<ferram4>
There is one big downside for clusters of smaller engines.
<ferram4>
Less efficiency in the chamber and nozzle.
<ferram4>
Lots more momentum losses to viscosity
<ferram4>
Lots more pressure losses in regen cooling
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to dev: https://git.io/v7wZB
<soundnfury>
ferram4: but are those really significant as between Thor-scale and F1-scale (say)?
<soundnfury>
I'd've thought those effects only really showed up at small engines
<ferram4>
You're talking about ~7.5x the thrust but with much less than that in terms of added surface area.
<soundnfury>
(though I can believe TWR drops off a bit as you decrease size, even in that scale range)
<soundnfury>
ferram4: it's more that I thought those losses were already pretty small by the time you get to Thor-scale
<soundnfury>
so they can't get much smaller
<ferram4>
The pressure losses in regen cooling?
<ferram4>
Data I have has them at 5%-25% of chamber pressure, depending on the engine.
* soundnfury
stands corrected
* soundnfury
is glad to be learning things today
<ferram4>
For momentum losses, it's drops Isp from theoretical down to between 85-90% of ideal.
<Pap>
NathanKell: I do not have any pending changes to push. All of the changes that exist are in the spreadsheet. We will do that later on tonight
<ferram4>
It's only a small increase at LR-79 -> F-1 levels, but 1% efficiency gain at that scale is 3s of Isp.
<ferram4>
And we do consider that significant as all hell.
<soundnfury>
ferram4: ... really? I'm not sure 3s of Isp is really that important
<soundnfury>
especially in a booster
<NathanKell>
Pap: Ok!
<soundnfury>
if you're optimising for costs (rather than, say, GLOM), at least
<NathanKell>
Argh, SSTU upper stage has limited bottom mount support :(((
<ferram4>
Considering that higher Isp through efficiency gains also means higher thrust, it's pretty good in terms of booster performance.
<SpecimenSpiff>
Ferram4, question on the process for getting fuel mix numbers. The guide in the first half or so has you putting a value into the freezing at area.. box. then it says to move that up to the nozzle exit condition. When I do that, my numbers go to hell
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: what I really wanted an opinion on was, is a Simple Procedural Engines mod like I propose, worth doing? Or should I not waste my time on it?
<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, what mixture ratio?
<SpecimenSpiff>
For example I was trying to match what we know about raptor in terms of nozzle ratio, mix, chamber pressure, to see if I get the same isp, and I do. but then I make that change, and I lose about 100isp
<ferram4>
You should only be doing that calibration right at the start.
<ferram4>
When you're trying to figure out what the optimal O/F range is.
<Pap>
NathanKell: What do you mean by that?
<ferram4>
Otherwise you set the exit ratio to what you've selected for freezing ratio and turn off the freezing.
<Pap>
I am re-working all of the SSTU parts and can make whatever changes we want (for the most part) of the parts
<SpecimenSpiff>
right, it has you usng the frozen version to figure that out, then go back to exit ratio for the real calcs. but then the real calcs are 100isp off
<SpecimenSpiff>
I can match published raptor specs using frozen, cant match them using nozzle exit
<ferram4>
Wait a minute.
<NathanKell>
Pap: I was hoping to just ocnvert to SSTU.
<ferram4>
Are you calculating out the numbers for methalox assuming a 40 area ratio and that's what you're putting into the tables?
<NathanKell>
But the only tankbutts it supports are faaaat and have lots of extras.
<NathanKell>
(on the uppers tage)
<Pap>
Ah, those can be modified
<SpecimenSpiff>
I was using 3.8 mix, 30MPa chamber pressure, 150 nozzle ratio
<SpecimenSpiff>
which is what i get for raptor from wikipedia
<UmbralRaptor>
Raptor specs are full flow staged combustion at pressures like 10% higher than the RD-170 family, right?
<ferram4>
Okay, and purely for validation of your freezing area ratio?
<SpecimenSpiff>
and with that, I get an isp bell curve that peaks right around the 334/361 that is published
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Ah I see.
<SpecimenSpiff>
raptor pressure is pretty damned high, yes
<ferram4>
Oh, are you just confused that I want data for extremely short nozzles?
<SpecimenSpiff>
if that's what you're asking for, yes
<ferram4>
I only want data up to the point where the combustion products freeze because I can do frozen area ratio calculations beyond that trivially.
<SpecimenSpiff>
I jsut stopped when I saw I was going to be running dozens of calcs that gave me suspicous numbers
<SpecimenSpiff>
wanted to confirm that it was correct before proceeding
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: My usual response is, if you want to make it, go for it. :) Although I think hopefully ferram's work will serve those needs. I originally thought to make a procengines mod as you do (extrapolating from known data) but have been converted over to the RPA route.
<ferram4>
That's why I only want data up to 1.3-3 or whatever. I can easily extend that to 6 -> 50 -> 250
<SpecimenSpiff>
ok
<NathanKell>
Pap: Basically, swapping to SSTU lets us create stage tanks out of single parts rather than out of 3 parts (or many parts in the case of an R-7 stage)
<ferram4>
Are we going to be abandoning the current PParts method in the future?
<NathanKell>
Pap: However I am having trouble finding "plain" noses and mounts. I.e. just tank domes.
<SpecimenSpiff>
next question, how do I determine whats the bottom and top range of mix to calc? there is a pretty narrow band of good values, with a sharp rise on the lean side, and a looooong slope on the rich side
<NathanKell>
ferram4: We were planning to with Saab's tanks, but he's MIA
<NathanKell>
So I'm having to cobble something together out of PParts, but got thinking maybe SSTU could serve
<SpecimenSpiff>
raptor is 3.8, rd-0162 is supposedly 3.5 we dont have a number for be-4 but it's supposed to be rich
<SpecimenSpiff>
I was thinking 2.0 to 8.0
<Pap>
NathanKell: yes it does allow that. They have basic cones and we can allow cones for the bottom as well. We can edit the MM configs to include those options. They are currently not on the upper stages by default.
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: ok, well, I'll have a crack at it; if ferram releases before I'm done and his is so awesome that I no longer feel the need for mine, I'll dump it
<NathanKell>
Pap: For example, on the regular stage tank, the 'plainest' nose still has stringers around it, so you can't let the dome bulge up as the upper stage part allows
<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, if you mean, "what's good for engine performance" make a judgment call at the edges of the range of good things. If you mean, "how far should I go" that's covered on the page. Basically, until RPA starts complaining about not being able to solve.
<ferram4>
Also, remember to follow the instructions for the fuel-rich side. They are important.
<SpecimenSpiff>
and thats my third question, how do I know when to switch to fuel-rich mode
<ferram4>
soundnfury, You will inevitably release something before me. Remember, you're basically talking about tweakscale for engines with career integration. Shouldn't take more than a week to create, test, and have ready to go.
<ferram4>
SpecimenSpiff, that is also explained in the instructon page.
<Pap>
NathanKell that would require use of the Interstage Decoupler and some offsetting, so not out of the possibility, just have to treat it a little differently.
<SpecimenSpiff>
I'll have to re-read, I skimmed that stuff but stopped when I hit that nozzle issue
<ProjectThoth>
ferram4: Helicopters have a speed limit because of retreating blade stall, yes?
<ferram4>
That and too much of the other blade going supersonic.
<ProjectThoth>
thank
<SpecimenSpiff>
I actually read an article a while back about a blade design that could handle the supersonic issue. but never heard anything come from it
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7wCO
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 7be4f56 NathanKell: Move ECM to RF
<NathanKell>
ferram4: What do you know about tooling?
<NathanKell>
Cylinders are easy to handle: if the diameter's the same, the tooling exists.
<ferram4>
Not too much, tbh.
<NathanKell>
Cones and curves are harder. How should we declare if something is already tooled for, vs. not?
<ferram4>
Depends on how the curves are made.
<Bornholio>
lol, cones are easy, curves are not
<ferram4>
Yeah, tbh. Cones are incredibly easy to mill.
<NathanKell>
Should we just treat them as (max diameter) + (length) then?
<ferram4>
Same as cylinder, you just angle the tool.
<Bornholio>
but not to fabricate from flat
<NathanKell>
ah ok
<NathanKell>
then I'll just treat cones like that then
<NathanKell>
As cylinders
<NathanKell>
smooth cones now...
<ferram4>
Depends on the manufacturing method.
<NathanKell>
I'm tempted to say the same way actually.
<NathanKell>
Because usually why you'd use a smooth cone in RO is as a tank dome
<NathanKell>
which should be part of the tooling for the diameter.
leudaimon has quit [Quit: Leaving]
awang has joined #RO
SpecimenSpiff has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
<lamont>
so i couldn’t figure out why line drawing wasn’t working in kRPC and thought something in my RO install was breaking it, but it was just that i was drawing in a non-rotating earth centered frame and the line zipped off to east. kerbin’s rotation being less and after drawing a thicker line it became obvious what i was doing wrong...
<lamont>
*west
<Bornholio>
obvious...
aradapilot has joined #RO
<ferram4>
NathanKell, is it possible for thrust transforms in ModuleEngines to provide different amounts of thrust?
<NathanKell>
yep!
<NathanKell>
Added that in 1.2
<ferram4>
Cool.
<NathanKell>
(or maybe even 1.1)
<NathanKell>
Check out an SSTU RD-107
<NathanKell>
It's set for 4 regulars and 2 verniers
<ferram4>
Will when I get a chance.
<NathanKell>
kk
<ferram4>
Mostly asking so that I know I can have a turbopump exhaust and main chamber spool up at the same speed with a single config when I get to having that stuff going on.
aradapilot has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
<NathanKell>
yep!
stratochief_ has joined #RO
stratochief has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
stratochief_ is now known as stratochief
<Bornholio>
.poke stratochief any desire to push my PR for RealISRU :)
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Get him on discord, that seems to work better :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
one flyby of Juno just netted me 1200 science :D Pallas, Ceres, Vesta and Lutezia still to go!
<ferram4>
NathanKell, are there any plans to differentiate how much pressure is in various pressurized tanks?
<NathanKell>
I plan to rewrite RF at some point to do that yes
<NathanKell>
when taniwha rewrites the tank side
<NathanKell>
That will also let us set per-resource pressurization.
<taniwha>
I hope to make some progress again on that soon
<NathanKell>
how the heck are you up
<NathanKell>
you went to bed at like 3am.
<taniwha>
I don't know :/
<NathanKell>
Don't kill yourself bud <3
<taniwha>
woke up naturally
<taniwha>
I guess worry about getting this passport application done
<NathanKell>
Wait you don't have it yet?
<NathanKell>
Isn't it a bit tight? Or is Japan super fast?
<taniwha>
I have my australian license
<NathanKell>
Oh right the driver's license thing
<taniwha>
and I /can/ apply for an exemption for the requirement for a canadian one