* xShadowx
thinks more parts need a heatshield built in for cases of him forgetting a heatshield
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<Rokker>
is it weird that im naming all of my sounding rockets after us cities starting with a D
<ProjectThoth>
lol so randum xD
<Bornholio>
not as weird as most of my names
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: it actually worked out quite well because the modified SR-1 Detroit became the SR-1.1 Dearborn
<Rokker>
which is of course a suburb of detroit
<Bornholio>
pap do you think i should remove those NTR PR's?
<Pap>
Bornholio: Why remove?
<Bornholio>
they are idle
<Pap>
Ah, no I have them downloaded, just trying to get through finals week
<Bornholio>
k I'm redoing the configs with Lqd.Methane with the improved Nozzle estimates if they are going to be used.
<Pap>
Oh they will definitely be used! They fill out the NTR branc very nicely
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<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: aw shit, i have to pay money for the parts now too?
<Rokker>
to unlock them
<Bornholio>
buhahaha
<ProjectThoth>
Rokker: $20 can buy many peanuts.
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Rokker: wait when did you not?
<NathanKell|Twitch>
RP-0 was built from the ground up with that...
<Raidernick>
does anyone here know if the delta iv medium uses the vectoring gem 60s on all flights vs the static ones or use 2 vector and 2 static for the 4 booster combos, or if it's on a per rocket basis and they use w/e the customer wants?
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: i never remember having to pay for them when i unlocked a node
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Rokker: Oh, then you just never, ever bothered to read the instructions :P
<NathanKell|Twitch>
(as to what difficulty to play on)
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: the what
<Rokker>
what are instructions
<xShadowx>
has anyone ever tested a musical instrument in space? i mean i know no air, so no sound as the tool intended, but still
<ProjectThoth>
xShadowx: Do harmonicas count?
<xShadowx>
i was thinkin like violin/guitar o.o
<Rokker>
xShadowx: in vacuum?
<xShadowx>
strings vibrate, so stuff would happen
<xShadowx>
ya
<Rokker>
afaik, no
<Bornholio>
playing guitar on ISS yes, outside ISS no
<Rokker>
people are retarded...
<Rokker>
i feel like far too ,many people conflate vacuum with zero g
<Bornholio>
its a pap guy, is the FASA science stuff on the hit list for science work over?
<SpecimenSpiff>
Not sure what settings I should be using
<Pap>
Bornholio: I am pretty sure that all of the FASA experiments are duplicated in Bluedog DB. We have permission to take the assets from BDB, so we will probably just use those. Are there any that are missing?
<Bornholio>
just they are in some cases different say like the geiger on agena, or the LEM science thing
<Pap>
But, I guess since Raidernick is maintaining FASA, he would give RP-0 the models as well
<Pap>
Yes, those will need to be cleaned up for sure
<Bornholio>
spiff make you boost phase short, say 10s initial and 60 sec pitch program, say .75 deg and let PEG do more of the ascent. also did PEG have control the whole time or loose it and go unguided gravity turn
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<SpecimenSpiff>
it started with pitch program, as soon as that ended it went unguided
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7ORY
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 4ff9c20 pap1723: SSTU Changes and Fixes...
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: well, what difficulty should i be playing on then
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Rokker: anything you like, now that I wrote the plugin to fix the presets to what we want
<NathanKell|Twitch>
you'll probably be bored at anything easier than Moderate tho
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Hard is an actual challenge, ish.
<NathanKell|Twitch>
nick NathanKell|NOMZ
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<Bornholio>
missed a charachter :)
<Raidernick>
NathanKell|Twitch, just spent hours trying to find out why the delta iii and delta iv weren't getting the proper performance, turns out somebody changed RL10A-4-1/2 to RL10A-4-1-2
<Raidernick>
so the !CONFIG[RL10A-4-1-2] {} wasn't working correctly for the b2 engine
<Raidernick>
and it was applying the a4 config
<Raidernick>
making the rocket weaker
<Pap>
That was me Raidernick, I apologize for that, the / was causing some errors in other situations
<Raidernick>
Pap, if you change something like that can you do a batch pass of configs for that
<Pap>
Yes, I will do that next time for sure
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<regex>
yay, Altair unlocked
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<borntosleep>
RL10's yeah, moon lander/sample return in the morning
<acharles>
Is there a way to bypass RT to arm a parachute?
<acharles>
For some reason, I staged it but it didn’t seem to arm…
<acharles>
I guess there’s always reverting to launch.
<acharles>
I hate having to revert/relaunch something just because staging didn’t arm the parachute
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<acharles>
I’d like if RT had an escape hatch that just said, “I don’t care, just let me press this button cause I don’t want to have wasted hours of my life”
<ProjectThoth>
Rokker: 11/10, but I was thinking of Saturn IB.
<SpecimenSpiff>
woot! orbit at last.
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<ProjectThoth>
Rokker: I'm looking at SSTO augmentation with a clustered tankage first stage.
<ProjectThoth>
150+ tons to LEO, but I don't really see the point.
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<ProjectThoth>
With solids, that stretches up to 200.
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: wat...
<ProjectThoth>
Rokker: Okay.
<ProjectThoth>
So.
<ProjectThoth>
Imagine an SSTO.
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: dude, you gotta stop these bullshit thought experiments, you arent thinking of anything anybody hasnt already discovered was a bad idea
<ProjectThoth>
Rokker: Come on, I have to learn from my own mistakes.
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<xShadowx>
NathanKell|Twitch: false advertising! ima sue!
* BadRocketsCo
knows guns but is pretty dumb when it comes to ammo
<Rokker>
acharles: i think the lower amount of gunpowder helped with that
<acharles>
makes sense
<Rokker>
and as you can see, the back of the cartridge exploded too
<BadRocketsCo>
I only know about 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO, .45 ACP and 9x19
<acharles>
most guns wouldn’t deal with that sort of thing anywhere near as well.
<Rokker>
so that prolly helped
<Rokker>
acharles: it was a 5.56 chambered AK-47, so it was built to be durable
<acharles>
I’m pretty sure it didn’t sound or feel very good.
<Rokker>
im surprised they got the bullet out of the barrel
<Rokker>
i feel like it would have snubbed
<Rokker>
and just fused in there
<BadRocketsCo>
Inb4 someone slams a 50 cal into the mag
<Rokker>
lol
<BadRocketsCo>
Also 5.56 AK-47 derivatives are awesome
* BadRocketsCo
has a hot love story with Galil AR
<BadRocketsCo>
I love the AK system, it is super reliable
<BadRocketsCo>
And 5.56 makes it really accurate
<Rokker>
well then
<Rokker>
NathanKell|AWAY: i found me a bug?
<Rokker>
it says facility is already being upgraded and im making about 1000 dollars a second
<Rokker>
meh shit
<Rokker>
accidentally erased the save
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<Raidernick>
Starwaster, you around?
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<Raidernick>
@Sarbian, was ~ removed as a syntax in MM?
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<Theysen>
!tell regex thanks on a sidenote for the mixing up of RSS texture resolutions, took it from some post on the forums of yours. helps the ram no matter what, cheers!
<Qboid>
Theysen: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Starwaster>
raidernick here
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<gazpachian>
Probus: yep. Liquid hydrogen is hella cold.
<gazpachian>
Yes. Hella.
<BadRocketsCo>
Is it actualy possible to get a Explorer into a polar orbit with the Juno?
<Maxsimal>
Unless we're talking about metallic liquid hydrogen, then it can be hot.
<Maxsimal>
in RO or in RL? In RL, the apogee of the explorer probes was high enough that yeah, there was enough extra Dv to have put those into a polar orbit
<Rokker>
Probus: yes
<Rokker>
Probus: dem cryogenics, man
<BadRocketsCo>
Maxsimal: hmm, good point
<BadRocketsCo>
Thanks!
<Rokker>
Probus: havent you ever seen teh RL-10 firing with icicles
<ThisDay>
July 26: Syncom 2 is launched on a Delta B and becomes the first geosynchronous communications satellite in 1963. In 1971, Apollo 15 launches from LC39A. NASA awards the contract for the design and building of STS in 1972.
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<Rokker>
Maxsimal: literally cool
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<Theysen>
so the nozzle cooling gets so cold it freezes on the rim right next to the hot combustion just because it is so darn cool?
<Maxsimal>
Yup, and the flow is so laminar and precise as to not ablate off or vibrate off the icicles.
<Theysen>
RL10 sexiness
<soundnfury>
Theysen: well, even without the cold nozzle there'd be some water condensing in the exhaust just because the ER is so high
<soundnfury>
so it's not exactly "right next to the hot combustion"
<soundnfury>
(indeed if the exhaust gases are hot, your nozzle is too short and you're leaving energy on the table ;)
<Theysen>
ay right those icicles are against SL pressure right?
<Maxsimal>
Yeah but the temperature of the gasses right next to them is still very hot, just that the pressure of the hot, low density gas is the same as the pressure of the colder, denser air next to it
<Maxsimal>
If that exhaust wasn't very hot, it wouldn't be glowing blue
<Maxsimal>
Or am I wrong about this (not a rocket scientist)
<Rokker>
Maxsimal: nah, the glow is just because of the chemicals
<Rokker>
hydrolox burns with a faint blue
<soundnfury>
yeah the glow _is_ due to heat but it's _not_ black-body radiation or anything like that
<Maxsimal>
Rokker: Yeah but any chemical, whatever color it's going to show when it's incandescent, has to be hot enough to show that
<soundnfury>
(it's blue because of bond lengths in water or some such quantum jiggery-pokery)
<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: volumetrically it's not a very bright glow, but there's a fairly thick cone of the stuff and it's translucent, so the glow adds up
<soundnfury>
also I'm not sure that test is necessarily exhausting into SL pressure, I imagine they're doing something clever with the test chamber
<Rokker>
Maxsimal: the outer edges are fairly cool
<Maxsimal>
soundnfury: Yeah I didn't think it was black body radiation. The colours are due to the quantized nature of the atomic or molecular states - when they jump between different levels, there's a particular amount of energy that gets emitted that corresponds to a photon of a particular frequency.
<Maxsimal>
Rokker: are they? The edges are still glowing. I wouldn't put my hand in there.
<Rokker>
Maxsimal: well relatively speakin
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<Pap>
o/
<Maxsimal>
o/ Pap
<Pap>
Hey Maxsimal
<Pap>
Do you have a link to the syntax for the MM pathes for the tags from NK?
<Pap>
s/pathes/patches
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: Do you have a link to the syntax for the MM patches for the tags from NK?
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Not here, I have a copy at home.
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Rokker: you here?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh hi, Pap o/
<Pap>
hEY sKUNK!
<Pap>
^^^ Damnit
<Rokker>
Hypergolic_Skunk: no, im over there
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Rokker: you mentioned 'stratochief's list' yesterday? have a link? :)
<Rokker>
Hypergolic_Skunk: more like he just let me download what he had. id ask him if he still has that file uploaded
<soundnfury>
(that took me a _long_ time to find...)
<Maxsimal>
soundnfury: Oh gotcha. Though I would still say that, from the icicles perspective, a stream of gas travelling at 4.4km/s or a very hot gas where the particles are bouncing around at 4.4km/s doesn't make much difference to it.
<Maxsimal>
Still, cool stuff, I didn't realize that it would actually be 'cold' inside that stream.
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<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: huh, that's true, there's a limit to how much the icicles care whether all this motion is ordered or disordered
<soundnfury>
(entropy is after all a matter of information, and that makes it relative to the observer)
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<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: because of the consequences when you start thinking about the implications
<soundnfury>
not only is temperature observer-relative, but it can even change without an interaction with the system (if someone else who previously interacted with the system gives you some information)
<soundnfury>
basically, entropy in statistical mechanics behaves much like uncertainty in quantum mechanics, with all the same entanglement stuff going on (though there's no analogy of decoherence, I think)
<soundnfury>
also: a time-reversed observer would, for the same reasons as us, necessarily find explanatory models in which entropy increases. But since that requires very different ground rules for how boundaries are drawn in phase space, they would have to perceive the Universe very differently
<Maxsimal>
An observer can't remember a time-reversed world - the world has to be increasing in entropy for the observers own entropy state to decrease (so that he can order his memories)
<Maxsimal>
And sequencing memories is how we perceive time. Maybe this is an oversimplification, but it's the only reason time exists to us.
<Maxsimal>
That doesn't seem that freaky to me though - just seems that's how things have to work.
<Maxsimal>
The freaky parts are where a lot of quantum mechanical interactions look like information theory systems to the point you wonder if our reality is an information system entirely, the whole 'we're a computer simulation' thing.
<soundnfury>
"the world has to be increasing in entropy for the observers own entropy state to decrease" <-- but you miss the point
<soundnfury>
entropy isn't a property of *the world*, it's in the map rather than the territory
<soundnfury>
entropy is a measure of your uncertainty about which microstate — which point in phase space — the world currently occupies
<soundnfury>
so an observer with a different set of maps (from a different set of rules about how to carve up phase space into macrostates) could well see entropy decreasing across a change in which we see it increasing
<soundnfury>
and thus his arrow of time points the other way
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<Maxsimal>
Not an observer that's part of the world itself.
<soundnfury>
um, why?
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<soundnfury>
the laws of physics don't say anything about the direction of time
<soundnfury>
it's only the laws of probability that do that,
<soundnfury>
and only when combined with a particular set of maps
<Maxsimal>
Because of the ruleset that for entropy to decrease in one part of the system, it has to increase in another part of the system - and if the 'observer' is part of this system, he can only record time moving in one direction - toward greater world entropy
<soundnfury>
no, he stores his memories in structures which to us seem high-entropy
<soundnfury>
just as, to us, his increasing-entropy-environment seems to us to be decreasing in entropy (in our time direction)
<soundnfury>
but by _his_ macrostates, we're the ones going the wrong way
<Maxsimal>
I don't think that's possible without this observer being outside the system and using his own ruleset.
<soundnfury>
You're still making the mistake of thinking that the entropy is something in the territory
<soundnfury>
by Liouville's theorem, the laws of physics are bijective over microstates.
<soundnfury>
bijection is inherently time-symmetric
<soundnfury>
the Second Law comes in when you combine this bijection with _incomplete accounting_: the collecting of microstates into macrostates
<soundnfury>
take the example in the post I linked, where (1, 2, 3, 4) goes to (2, 4, 6, 8).
<soundnfury>
From an "intervals" definition of macrostates, we've gone from [1, 4] to [2, 8]; our volume in phase space has increased from 4 to 7.
<soundnfury>
But if your macrostates are "odd" and "even", we've gone from a phase-space volume of 2 (i.e. {odd, even}) to a volume of 1 (i.e. {even}).
<soundnfury>
so what the "arrow of time" really means is that our perceptions of reality are built around the former, rather than the latter, type of macrostate
<Maxsimal>
Ok, but for this odd/even observer, where did he get entropy to record the state change he just saw? He's participating in a system where entropy is going backward - the universe is getting more ordered around him as he observes it, which means that HE should be getting less ordered with each observation he makes
<soundnfury>
He's getting less ordered *with respect to _our_ definition of order*
<soundnfury>
but he's getting *more* ordered with respect to _his_ definition of order
<soundnfury>
(note, btw, that none of this violates the Jaynesian formulation of the Second Law; a manipulation in a macrovariable that's not part of our macrostate can easily produce a decrease of our entropy)
<Maxsimal>
Ok, well, so how does this observer have a different 'map'? Isn't the number of states in the universe determined by the universe, not by the observer?
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<soundnfury>
The *microstates* (points in phase space) are the same for all observers, because they're part of the territory
<soundnfury>
if electron 1 is at location X, with spin up, everyone agrees on that
<soundnfury>
that _is_ determined by the universe
<soundnfury>
but the *macrostates* (boundaries around regions of phase space) are _not_ a physically real thing,
<soundnfury>
they're just an artefact of the observer's methods of perceiving his environment (what I like to lump under the term "bookkeeping")
<soundnfury>
so let's again take the simple example where there are just 8 microstates in the entire universe, labelled 1 through 8,
<soundnfury>
and when we run physics in what we consider the forward time direction, the eight microstates go to (2, 4, 6, 8, 7, 5, 3, 1) respectively.
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<soundnfury>
now, from our perspective, states 1 through 4 look the same as one another, as do states 5 through 8,
<soundnfury>
so if we start in (say) state 3, we see the system going from macrostate {1, 2, 3, 4} to macrostate {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8} - an increase in entropy.
<BadRocketsCo>
What's up?
<soundnfury>
but the other observer instead distinguishes between states {1, 3, 5, 7} and {2, 4, 6, 8}, so sees that _in the reversed time_ the system starts in state {2, 4, 6, 8} and ends in state {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8}.
<soundnfury>
again, entropy has increased, but time has gone the other way
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<soundnfury>
BadRocketsCo: I'm explaining to Maxsimal how the arrow of time depends on how you perceive macrostates
<soundnfury>
because thermodynamics is weird and entropy is relative to the observer :D
<BadRocketsCo>
Sounds complicated :D
<Maxsimal>
But this bookkeeping of macrostates, I mean, I can understand that you can change them philosophically, but our brains (or any memory system) has to operate in the universe, so you can't apply your bookkeeping frames of reference to them. (At this point I'm mostly playing devil's advocate btw, since I'm a little bit lost with this anyway and people are bugging me to fix bugs when I'd rather google this stuff)
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<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: heh. Well do come back for more when people aren't bugging you any more ;)
<soundnfury>
the point though is that the other observer's memory system doesn't look anything like our brains
<soundnfury>
in fact it may be literally impossible for us to _recognise_ it as a memory system, since doing so might allow us to violate the Second Law with respect to our _own_ bookkeeping
<soundnfury>
(via Jaynes' "second law trickery", q.v.)
<soundnfury>
aaaaaaand that's just given me a great idea for a science-fiction short story
<Maxsimal>
Sounds like physics/philosophy faffing about if it's something that might happen but we can't ever observe or interact with.
<Maxsimal>
Like the tachyon
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<BadRocketsCo>
Do you people even understand what you are talking about? :D
<Maxsimal>
Maybe :P
<soundnfury>
BadRocketsCo: I _think_ I understand it, but my mind remains sufficiently blown that I may be missing something
<BadRocketsCo>
Hahah, okay :D
<soundnfury>
I'd say I understand it as mathematics but I don't have a solid grasp on how it translates to physics at an experiential scale
<BadRocketsCo>
Well take it easy, nothing matters anyway and (spoiler alert) everyone dies :D
<BadRocketsCo>
The universe is just an terribly long episode of GoT
<Maxsimal>
I still feel like in physics, you can't change the book keeping when it comes to things becoming less ordered. You'd have to do something like that paradox in the paper - find a new version of Argon where there are really two kinds of Argon. And that's possible, we make discoveries like that all the time- but then we also discover the universe has been using these states the whole time as well, it's not like our discovery of this 'bookkeeping' changes things.
<soundnfury>
BadRocketsCo: "In the long run we are all dead" — John Maynard Keynes. "Yes, but not all at the same time" — Joan Robinson
<Maxsimal>
"Unless you're a philosopher positing that the universe only has one macrostate, then yes, all at the same time." - Me
<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: the change in bookkeeping would be more like a duality
<soundnfury>
so that, perhaps, instead of being a spatially localised structure like us, this observer would be localised on a lattice
<soundnfury>
and thus would be sensitive to displacements within a lattice cell but ignorant of displacements by an integer multiple of the cell size
<Raidernick>
Starwaster,
<soundnfury>
that sort of "completely not like any life we can imagine" change
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<BadRocketsCo>
On a lettuce*
<schnobs>
Coming too late, I don't even know what you're talking about. But guess what? Today a colleague tried to peddle us perpetua mobilia. So much for not understanding the world.
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<Maxsimal>
Yeah, it's not just 'can't imagine' as in the 'beyond our scope to imagine' sort of thing though. It's 'literally cannot be imagined because if we could comprehend the ruleset they operated on, we could predict the future precisely and violate the 2nd law ourselves' sort of can't be imagined.
<Maxsimal>
If we could understand a version of their ruleset where they're getting more ordered going backward in time, not forward like us, and measure that in any fashion, we could look forward into our own future.
<Maxsimal>
Which of course violates the light speed information law, and casaulity, etc
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<Maxsimal>
!tell Pap Btw I'm not going to be home until very late today, if you want to work on that and can get NK to give it to you you might get it faster.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: oh yes, I agree that if we had access to a memory device using time-reversed macrostates, we could use it to send messages back in time. I'm still trying to work out whether we could also use it to create a perpetual motion machine, though — I'm unsure.
<Maxsimal>
Sure we could - as long as we're ok with a pepertual motion machine that only works backward in time :P
<soundnfury>
yeah, that's what I'm wondering about
<Maxsimal>
You realize that's a joke, every engine is a perpetual motion machine that works backward in time.
<soundnfury>
because if it were that simple, we could get backwardsman to build a PMM that works backward in time for _him_, which is forwards for us :P
<soundnfury>
but if _he_ builds an engine, then for _our_ time it's a PMM wrt _his_ entropy, but not necessarily wrt _our_ entropy
<soundnfury>
so can we extract our-work from his-entropy?
<Maxsimal>
Yes! And we could also pay him next to nothing - we'll just agree to give his great-great-grandfather some money when he's born, and he can invest it and earn compound interest so he's rich when he's born.
<soundnfury>
hehe
<soundnfury>
I think, if I _do_ write this short story, there will definitely be a wise-cracking character who says some of these things you just did :)
<BadRocketsCo>
Will the short story have explosions?
<Maxsimal>
Depends on the observer.
<soundnfury>
BadRocketsCo: I doubt it
<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: xD xD xD
<BadRocketsCo>
Heh, nice one Maxsimal
<Maxsimal>
ty ty :P
<soundnfury>
hmm, having thought about it some more, and re-read Jaynes on 'second law trickery', I don't think a PMM can be built from Merlin's memory
<soundnfury>
all it does is give us access to some new macrovariables, which the trickster can use to produce an _apparent_ SL violation to an observer ignorant of those macrovariables,
<soundnfury>
so we haven't _actually_ built a PMM (which is good, because that would be impossible). But we *can* use it as one, because the entropy increase "elsewhere" in our engine is one that's invisible to us anyway
<soundnfury>
but the more we use it, the "warmer" the Universe gets in terms of Merlin-macrovariables, thus reducing our Carnot efficiency
<soundnfury>
and eventually — though nothing looks different to us — we still run into heat death
<Maxsimal>
Merlin doesn't know any future microstates? So he's not a man going backward in time, he's actually some extra-dimensional being?
<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: well naturally
<Maxsimal>
Maxsimal: But that wasn't what you were positing for your backward-in-time creatures. I'm willing to accept you can reverse time if there's 'extra' variables we don't know about, just not that you can do it by using the same variables and looking at them in a different fashion.
<soundnfury>
however, the fact that we exist and are doing this (using Merlin-macrostates despite not being of Merlin's species) means that Merlin will observe decreasing entropy up until the moment he meets us (at which point we suddenly stop using Merlin-macrostate engines)
<soundnfury>
"and oh no I've gone cross-eyed"
<soundnfury>
they're extra _macrovariables_
<soundnfury>
but defined over the _same_ microstates
<soundnfury>
(a macrovariable is properly a _function_ of the microstate)
<Maxsimal>
So he does have to know about future microstates, because somehow he's recorded them while going backward in (our) time
<Maxsimal>
So you should be able to build a PMM with his memory
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<soundnfury>
no, he knows about future _macrostates_
<soundnfury>
taking our eight-state Universe again, he knows that in the future the Universe will be even
<soundnfury>
but that doesn't tell us whether it will be greater than four
<Maxsimal>
But it tells us it won't be 3 or 5
<Maxsimal>
So it reduces the future entropy for us
<Maxsimal>
So PMM, yes?
<soundnfury>
It doesn't affect the future entropy in terms of macrovariables _we can measure_, though
<Maxsimal>
So he knows the future state of a number will be 'green' which we don't give a fuck about and won't matter....
<Maxsimal>
And we're back to a creature that fundamentally can't communicate with us in any fashion because ALL of his macrostates have to be different than ours
<soundnfury>
at most, it gives us a _way_ to interact with those macrovariables — his memory _is_ that means of interaction
<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: well, possibly.
<Maxsimal>
But that's not Merlin - Merlin understand a future we can percieve
<Maxsimal>
*understands
<soundnfury>
Yeah, I'm just using "Merlin" because, y'know, good name for a time-reversed life-form
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<soundnfury>
not importing that entire character unmodified
<Maxsimal>
Ok well, that's a pretty big distinction
<soundnfury>
Now, though, suppose a mathematical discovery were made about the nature of these time-reversed macrostates
<soundnfury>
in principle _that's_ something we should be able to do
<soundnfury>
(in Universe 8, some mathematician may discover the property of evenness, and then a physicist will point out "hey, this could be applied to microstates")
<soundnfury>
and at that point we discover that yes, if we attempt to measure the evenness of Merlin's memory, we get a signal rather than just noise
<soundnfury>
and suddenly communication has opened up
<soundnfury>
does that bring back the PMM?
<Maxsimal>
Yes - it also brings up that casuality and speed of light is violated, and our universe where everything functions according to SL is no violated by this new variable.
<Maxsimal>
*now violated
<Maxsimal>
Since for one set of observers at least, it violates the second law.
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<Maxsimal>
Basically - it comes down to 'Is he Merlin or is he one of these un-understandable creatures'. Just because we can't understand Merlin now doesn't matter, it only matters that some aspect of Merlin's understanding can cross over, and therefore has always been violating the 2nd law.
<soundnfury>
but it's only been violating the 2nd law wrt our (impoverished) collection of macrovariables; it's Jaynes' "second law trickery" again, no?
<soundnfury>
while entropy from Merlin's macrovariables decreases and entropy from ours increases, that doesn't tell us what entropy from combining _both_ does
<soundnfury>
indeed it _may_ be the case that combining _all_ of our macrovariables with _all_ of Merlin's must necessarily identify a _single_ microstate (?) thus punting all of Stat Mech
<Maxsimal>
I though the 2-types of Argon in Jayne's second law trickery thing was adding new microstates we didn't know about, not just adding new macrovariables we didn't understand.
<Maxsimal>
I just skimmed most of that - is that what you're referring to though?
<soundnfury>
no, because the assumption is that each Argon atom has individual identity
<soundnfury>
(let's not bring quantum into this right now ;)
<Maxsimal>
But each of them having individual identity IS adding new microstates vs the 'previous' understanding that they were identical.
<soundnfury>
no, the assumption from the start (even before the discovery of Whifnium) is that each atom has identity
<soundnfury>
but that we are unable, due to our limited computational power, to track the motion of each atom
<soundnfury>
so we just try to disentangle them later by saying "this one's nitrogen, that one's argon"
<Maxsimal>
Right, we already know that nitrogen and argon are diferrent
<soundnfury>
and when we discover Whifnium we now have a new way to disentangle some Argon atoms from others
<Maxsimal>
That's why mixing nitrogen and argon increases entropy
<soundnfury>
but the microstates are, still and always, of the form "atom i is in position x_i"
<Maxsimal>
But after we discover that Ar1 and Ar2 exist, now we realize that mixing Ar1 and Ar2 also increase entropy, whereas before we didn't
<soundnfury>
it's not a "now we realise"
<soundnfury>
relative to the _old_ macrovariables, the mixing didn't, and still doesn't, increase entropy
<soundnfury>
relative to the _new_ macrovariables, the mixing does, and always did, increase entropy
<soundnfury>
(Jaynes explicitly points this out)
<Maxsimal>
Ok, hear me out
<soundnfury>
the confusion comes from calling two different things "the" entropy of the system
<Maxsimal>
Entropy has direct implications in the universe, in terms of 'can we extra energy from this change', yes? If there's no entropy change, we can't get energy from the interaction
<Maxsimal>
And we can't change the entropy of two connected systems if one of them is not changing
<soundnfury>
but those implications are in terms of "the methods we know of for extracting energy"
<soundnfury>
or, more properly, "the methods we are interested in using"
<soundnfury>
the old model of Argon is still valid as long as we don't use Whifnium in our experimental apparatus
<Maxsimal>
But the law of casuality and the 2nd law depends on the notion that, regardless of whether we've discovered the method or not, they can't be violated.
<soundnfury>
As Jaynes states, the 2nd law is only that the entropy _wrt a given set of macrovariables_ cannot be reliably decreased _by manipulating those macrovariables_
<Maxsimal>
We can't suddenly discover a planet where time goes backward - where that planet has been recieving our radio waves in their past and can tell us about them now so we know about our future 'just because we haven't dicovered them yet'
<soundnfury>
see the penultimate paragraph of §6, on page 10
<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: why not?
<Maxsimal>
I dunno, scientists are pretty sure you can't have a PMM, and not because they've exaustively tested all the possible combinations of microstates and forces and etc to make sure
<borntosleep>
are you discussing gibbs paradox?
<Maxsimal>
So check however they proved it.
<soundnfury>
borntosleep: among other things, yes.
<borntosleep>
walk away, too much handwavium in that metal
<Maxsimal>
I don't believe that we'll discover backwards time travel for the same reason that I don't believe we'll discover dimensional jumpers - either they don't exist, or they can't materially affect us, or we'd be FLOODED with the bastards constantly messing with us :P
<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: I can certainly sympathise with that argument — the anthropic approach has much to recommend it — but I suspect there _are_ ways around it
<soundnfury>
for instance, after we meet Merlin it's in both our interests to observe a strict non-contamination policy.
<soundnfury>
because anything we do our-after the meeting that affects Merlin's planet, changes Merlin's history before the meeting and may prevent it from having happened
<soundnfury>
which would suck for us because we'd no longer have discovered all this wonderfully applicable technology
<soundnfury>
(though I don't worry about paradoxes, because they just apply a Novikov force that prevents them: the quotient space produces a boundary effect. It's all quite neat really)
<borntosleep>
Novikov force is that smoke that comes out of a crack pipe
<soundnfury>
borntosleep: care to elaborate?
<borntosleep>
all it discusses is false dilema
<borntosleep>
provides for no true solution mathmatical or otherwise
<Maxsimal>
Maybe some time in the distant (our) past, our time aliens blew up the reverse-time aliens just because that was the easiest way to observe non-contamination. Or maybe that's what the big bang is - the war between our times when we just nuked everything and then parted ways.
<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: a war between times? One could almost call it... the Time War :P
<borntosleep>
causality is and has been proven over and over at all scales and every attempt to disprove it gets washed away in bad assumptionas and bad math. Solving some time travel paradox is irrelivant to solving for a reversable cauality
<borntosleep>
the Novikos SCC uses a bull handwavium it calles closed timelike curves that are very bad mathematical constructs that are then used as jargon by the subsequent work
<soundnfury>
Closed timelike curves are not "bull handwavium"
<soundnfury>
they are solutions to the equations of General Relativity
<borntosleep>
opinion
<borntosleep>
bad solutions
<soundnfury>
and whether or not you believe that they exist in our Universe (personally, I don't see any reason to) they are just as valid as any other solution
<borntosleep>
as any othere solution that violates causlaity sure
<Maxsimal>
Ehh, it's the general problem people have with String theory - no provable hypotheses.
<soundnfury>
borntosleep: but from an understanding of Barbour's timeless physics, we see that causality is a parochial notion
<soundnfury>
the ultimate answer to "why event" isn't "because cause" but "because block-universe"
<borntosleep>
barbour was just a nihlist spouting religion
<soundnfury>
and while the relations _within_ 'the landscape' are _often_ aligned with some timelike relation, that's not necessary
<soundnfury>
borntosleep: do you intend to make any actual arguments at any point, or just continue with the dismissals and the ad-homs?
<borntosleep>
nope
<soundnfury>
saying "X is false" does not constitute an argument against X, no matter how vitrolic a synonym you use for "false" ;)
<soundnfury>
s/tro/trio/
<Qboid>
soundnfury meant to say: saying "X is false" does not constitute an argument against X, no matter how vitriolic a synonym you use for "false" ;)
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<Maxsimal>
Ehh to me if doesn't matter if it's a block-universe or casuality - it only matters if the 'only' way to perceive time is in one direction or not.
<Maxsimal>
Hence our previous discussion
<soundnfury>
well, except that in a universe-with-inherent-causality there is an inherent time and thus an inherent direction thereof
<soundnfury>
whereas in timeless physics, since time (like entropy or probability) is in the map rather than the territory, there's no reason different maps can't have different directions of time
<soundnfury>
indeed, in the Barbour block universe, the direction of time is a vector field, not just a sign
<soundnfury>
entities could (perhaps) perceive entirely different paths through configuration space, that are not simply a reversal of ours
<Maxsimal>
That article sounds a lot like my initial arguement - that because you can only record, or compute, experiences in one direction due to how entropy works, you can only perceive time in one direction.
<soundnfury>
ah but note that L1, M2 etc are _events_ in the probability space
<soundnfury>
which, if we identify the sample space with the set of microstates...
<soundnfury>
means that events are exactly macrostates!
<soundnfury>
and thus choosing a different set of {macrostates,events} leads to a different {entropy function,probability measure} and thus a different {perception,σ-algebra}
<soundnfury>
the analogy is, I believe, compelling
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<soundnfury>
and just as a sequence of microstates may admit of two different macrostate decompositions with opposite directions of time, so might a sequence of samples admit of two different event sets with opposite directions of causality
<soundnfury>
the mathematics might not be _identical_, but it'd be very _similar_ in structure
<Maxsimal>
So find me a set of samples where effect preceedes cause and we can discuss things :P
<Maxsimal>
anyway, I gotta run, later
<Maxsimal>
Or earlier, for soundnfury
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<Raidernick>
@NathanKell|WORK, you around?
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<Raidernick>
Pap, you do a lot of rp0 stuff right?
<Pap>
Yes I do Raidernick
<Qboid>
Pap: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [26.07.2017 15:09:21]: "Btw I'm not going to be home until very late today, if you want to work on that and can get NK to give it to you you might get it faster."
<Raidernick>
Pap, why does this exist:https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/commit/eee800f690580a22407494ef5090f9f25807f8a6
<Raidernick>
apparently nobody noticed it until now
<Raidernick>
but it removed ALL rssroconfig = true from all aprts
<Raidernick>
for no reason
<Raidernick>
and it says it's for rp0
<Pap>
It was from before my time, but it doesn't set the flag until after (basically) all other modules are run wiht the [zzzRealismOverhaul] tag at the end. How is it messing with things?
<Raidernick>
it's removing rssroconfig line from all parts
<Raidernick>
there are mods that depend on thsi line existing
<Raidernick>
like RG
<Raidernick>
RF*
<Raidernick>
which is kind of needed for ro....
<blowfish>
it needs to be there when all other patches are processed, and needs to not be there when KSP actually parses the part
<Pap>
No, I get that, but doesn't the patch execute after all other patches have already run?
<blowfish>
RF's patch should really not be :FINAL though, that's not something that should be distributed
<Raidernick>
Pap, the point is the parts need to have rssroconfig in them
<Raidernick>
even if it removes it last, it still needs to be there
<xShadowx>
ya that patch needs to exist, and the FINAL not exist
<Pap>
I thought that NK said it needed to be removed for some reason. Let's wait until he weighs in on it
<Pap>
I don't see why it would ever need to be removed though
<Sigma88>
using FINAL on mods is generally frowned upon
<xShadowx>
well...sloppy log spam :P but thats my ocd in liking clean logs
<Pap>
Yes FIANAL is very bad
<Pap>
FINAL is reserved (should be) for personal patches
<xShadowx>
^
<xShadowx>
so many times i try final, and some mod did it too, breaking my final :(
<Pap>
Raidernick: I noticed that you have been making a lot of ULA Pack changes, is it still being held up by ULA?
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<Raidernick>
Pap, KK may or may not be releasing the pack minus the atlas V soonish
<Raidernick>
because the atlas v rd180 is why it's being held up
<Pap>
Cool, or not cool, and damn, the Atlas V was what I was most looking forward to
<Raidernick>
Pap, it has tons of issues in RO anyway
<Raidernick>
even my best config voodoo can't fix some of the issues
<Pap>
Ah, too bad
<Raidernick>
the deltas work perfect
<Pap>
Lol
<Raidernick>
the atlas is a nightmare to fly
<Raidernick>
Pap, but i need this RF/RO rssconfig issue worked out soonish
<Raidernick>
it was causing me a major headache when i was doing these parts
<Pap>
We'll get it fixed today for sure
<Raidernick>
and I couldn't even pinpoint what was causing it originally
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<Raidernick>
Starwaster, has a good point though, even if FINAL is removed we have no diea if that config is causing other issues still
<Raidernick>
idea*
<Sigma88>
if you have MM issues I can take a look
<Raidernick>
Sigma88, the issue is a 3 way problem between realfuels, RO and rp0
<Raidernick>
and 3 different configs changing the same thing
<Sigma88>
just link me the stuff I need to download :D
<Sigma88>
this is better for many different reasons
<Sigma88>
and in the first cfg you have no reason to include the ~RSSROConfig[]
<Sigma88>
because by the time the patch is applied, that value has already been removed from all parts
<Sigma88>
which means the only time you find the tag is if one rogue tag failed to be deleted
<Sigma88>
for some reason
<Sigma88>
now I've got to run catch my bus, I can log in from there
<blowfish>
the problem though is that the patch in RF *should* only apply to parts that have not been configured by RO
<Sigma88>
ah so you just need to apply before the cleanup
<Sigma88>
so that the tag is still there
<Sigma88>
use :BEFORE[zzzTagCleanup]
<Sigma88>
instead of :FINAL
<Sigma88>
BRB
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<Sigma88>
I'm back
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<Sigma88>
Is the mod from the second link a dependancy for the mod from the first link?
<Sigma88>
Or could the first mod be installed when the second is not installed?
<blowfish>
RO depends on RF, yes
<blowfish>
but not the other way around
<Sigma88>
Which is the one with the final?
<blowfish>
RF
<Sigma88>
And the zzzcleanup is from ro?
<Sigma88>
Then you cannot use :BEFORE
<Sigma88>
You need to use a :FOR that comes before alphabetically
<Sigma88>
Otherwise the patch will fail when RO is not installed
<blowfish>
yeah
<NathanKell|WORK>
The issue is the RF patch, yes
<NathanKell|WORK>
We should never be on FINAL
<NathanKell|WORK>
that's my fault from waaaay back when
<NathanKell|WORK>
before MM *had* passes, IIRC.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Just regular and FINAL
<Raidernick>
NathanKell|WORK, i'm curious as to why rssroconfig needs to be removed from everything still
<NathanKell|WORK>
Because otherwise KSP complains
<Raidernick>
does it cause any actual issues or does it just log spam?
<NathanKell|WORK>
It causes considerable slowdown in trying and failing to parse and then logspamming.
<NathanKell|WORK>
And it's just messy.
<Raidernick>
ok so then RF needs to be fixed?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yes
<NathanKell|WORK>
I posted on it
<Raidernick>
ok
<NathanKell|WORK>
as I said I wrote the patch before MM *supported* passes so FINAL was the only choice
<NathanKell|WORK>
Now there are better choices, but the RF patch never got updated
<NathanKell|WORK>
as I said there*
<NathanKell|WORK>
Rokker: Your upgrades are bugging out because you have an old, broken version of KCT. Update it.
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: nah, I'm good
<NathanKell|WORK>
ah?
<NathanKell|WORK>
I saw it in scrollback but didn't see a resolution
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: free money
<NathanKell|WORK>
...
<Rokker>
kek
<NathanKell|WORK>
YOU DIRTY COMMIE
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: realistic simulation of a DOD rocketry program
<NathanKell|WORK>
HAH
<NathanKell|WORK>
Sarbian: what are the implications of just straight-up replacing using System.Linq with using Slinq? (I ask for RemoteTech)
<xShadowx>
he defecting to be a dirty commie cuz hes sad navy got nearly every space first-record :P
<NathanKell|WORK>
every US one
<NathanKell|WORK>
the Russians obvs were all Frontal Aviation
<xShadowx>
russians dont count
<xShadowx>
:)
<NathanKell|WORK>
(Ah some might have been PVO, I dunno)
<blowfish>
does RT use a lot of linq every frame?
<NathanKell|WORK>
yes
<NathanKell|WORK>
craptons
<NathanKell|WORK>
(IMS)
<blowfish>
well sling will certainly make it so that the enumerators don't have to be GC'd
<blowfish>
slinq, stupid auto correct
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<blowfish>
slinq is a funny but interesting concept - to avoid creating enumerators that have to be GC'd, create a new struct type for every possible enumeration that you use
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<Maxsimal>
Pap: No worries. Anyway can't stay long, will be around more tomorrow
<Maxsimal>
Later!
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<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, interesting thing I've found with RPA: it turns out that turning on "frozen equilibrium" partway through the nozzle causes it to break if there's a case where the rocket nozzle doesn't choke.
<ferram4>
Actually, running it with shifting equilibrium through the whole thing provides a more reasonable answer.
<ferram4>
Turns out that 0.25 MPa and kerolox at O/F of 0.25 doesn't choke a nozzle with an expansion ratio of 1.3.
<NathanKell|WORK>
ferram4: lol
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap1723: yep
<Pap1723>
Do all I need to do is create a MODULE { name = ModuleTagHydrolox } for say the Hydrolox tab?
<ferram4>
I'm kinda trying to just find the low end of where I need data from.
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<silentstrand_>
hi all, i was trying to get some advice on how to add a thrust curve to a SRB part file, i'm trying to add one to the SSRB's on the Space Shuttle System mod, just like the one on Component Space Shuttles mod, was wondering if anyone could give me some pointers how i could do this
<silentstrand_>
i can add the module in, but the SSRB just burns at 100% like no curve was even added
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<ferram4>
silentstrand_, check out the configs for any of the other SRBs we have, they'll have the exact syntax you need. You should actualy be able to find a SSRB config in there already, I think.
<Pap1723>
Ok separate question. If I have a part that has 6 RCS nozzles. 1 points left, 1 points right, 4 point down. If I set the thruster value to 5, will it apply the 5 thruster to each nozzle? so I will essentially get 20kN from the "down" nozzles?
<silentstrand_>
ok so if i copy the info from the RO RSRMV to the SSS SSRB would that change the size and mounting points on it? I'm kind of lost i see how its linking to the modules from RO, but not quite sure how to add them to the existing part file
<Maxsimal>
Have you testing my sounding rocket contract stuff out btw?
<Pap1723>
Maxsimal: Haven't booted up KSP since you posted :(
<Maxsimal>
Ah no worries
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<xShadowx>
silentstrand_: unfamiliar with this bit, someone will prolly correct me, but think you just add a thrustCurve{} node to your ModuleEngines, add keys like any other curve for the thrust values
<silentstrand_>
actually i just got rid of all the moduleengines info and replaced it with the RSRMV from the RO engine configs and it worked!
<silentstrand_>
xShadowx, i had actually tried that many times too, and it wouldn't even recognize that there was a thrustcurve module added in.
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<xShadowx>
silentstrand_: as thrustCurve {} ? capital C, caps matter :|
<xShadowx>
and grats ^.^
<silentstrand_>
that might have been the issue before, but i know at one point i copy and pasted the module from CSS file and it still didnt work
<NathanKell|WORK>
Again you ping me right when I get back
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap1723: Nope. They need to be separate lines
<NathanKell|WORK>
(AFAIK)
<NathanKell|WORK>
MODULE
<NathanKell|WORK>
{
<NathanKell|WORK>
name = [whatever]
<NathanKell|WORK>
}
<NathanKell|WORK>
MODULE
<NathanKell|WORK>
{
<NathanKell|WORK>
name = other thing
<NathanKell|WORK>
}
<Pap1723>
I was hoping I could keep it a sane vertical size, oh well
<Pap1723>
NathanKell|WORK: Ok separate question. If I have a part that has 6 RCS nozzles. 1 points left, 1 points right, 4 point down. If I set the thruster value to 5, will it apply the 5 thruster to each nozzle? so I will essentially get 20kN from the "down" nozzles?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap1723: Yep
<blowfish>
RCS thrust is per port
<Pap1723>
Thanks again
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<Pap1723>
What does the 2nd number in the RCS Class signify? They are all just less than 62% higher. (138/223 n class) (275/445 n class)
<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, so at a O/F of 0.25, 53% of the stuff coming out of a nozzle is graphite. :D
<ferram4>
At least for kerolox
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap1723: Thrust on hydrazine / thrust on NTO/MMH
<ferram4>
I see why the frozen equil was failing.
<NathanKell|WORK>
(or AZ50 or UDMH, I forget--anyway, NTO+some_hydrazine_derivative)
<NathanKell|WORK>
ferram4: Hah!
<ferram4>
It was attempting to make sense of solid trash
<ferram4>
That requires other corrections.
<ferram4>
Alright, so the leanest you can run kerolox from 0.25 MPa to 50 MPa is at 1.2 O/F
<ferram4>
Before you get graphite.
<ferram4>
'm not simulating graphite in the exhaust.
<ferram4>
Screw that, do it right
<soundnfury>
wait, surely running _richer_ should give more graphite? /me confus
<Maxsimal>
Surely it's soot, not graphite? And yeah - soot can be a problem with kerolox engines.
<soundnfury>
oh, bye, Maxsimal ;)
<Maxsimal>
Oh ok, bye? And how'd you know I'm leaving :P
<Maxsimal>
Oh right, reverse time
<Maxsimal>
Hello!
<soundnfury>
xD
Maxsimal has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
<egg>
??????
<soundnfury>
for those of you playing along at home, Maxsimal and I were discussing time-reversed thermodynamics earlier
<soundnfury>
(or possibly later ;)
<soundnfury>
I had the idea that there could be a set of macrovariables dual to ours, with respect to which entropy decreases over time (thus meaning organisms structured wrt those macrovariables would perceive time (even causality) in the opposite direction
<soundnfury>
I'm now attempting to write an SF short story with this as the premise
<soundnfury>
it's altogether too much fun
<egg>
!wpn ferram4
* Qboid
gives ferram4 a cow
<soundnfury>
!wpn egg
* Qboid
gives egg a Hermitian bot
<NathanKell|WORK>
ferram4: but it's egg's job to moo!
<egg>
ferram4: please put the cow in a wind tunnel
<NathanKell|WORK>
Is it spherical?
<ferram4>
Sorry, I'm busy collecting data on overly-rich kerolox engine performance.