<acharles>
The probeCoreOcto gets this patch applied. The RO_earlyControllableCore has the same patch, it just happens FOR[RealismOverhaul] instead of FOR[RP-0]
<acharles>
What does :FOR[] do? Is that the issue?
<NathanKell>
that says when to run the patch
<NathanKell>
and yes it should indeed say RP0! Nice find!
<NathanKell>
Not sure why it works for me and not for you tho
<github>
RP-0/master 430ef13 NathanKell: Fix pass used for some avionics (was a copypasta issue from RO one presumes). thanks acharles!
<acharles>
Ah, is module manager determinstic?
<NathanKell>
I thought it was :]
<acharles>
And it’s not the only one in the file with that bug.
<NathanKell>
yeah, did CTRL-H on iot
<NathanKell>
s/iot/it/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: yeah, did CTRL-H on it
<acharles>
Any chance of looking at my other PR’s?
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<acharles>
And at my old job, I found a bug where our unit tests would only fail on some machines because the memory returned from malloc on those machines didn’t increase each subsequent call while the test was running.
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<acharles>
sometimes determinism is hard.
<acharles>
Though from now on, instead of having keys in tests be a, b, c, d… I should just use b, v, g, d… :P
<NathanKell>
:D
<NathanKell>
acharles: Ah. I bet you don't have (or don't have a working) RealismOverhaul.dll
<NathanKell>
That's the only thing I can think of that would mess up pass ordering.
<acharles>
Hmm…
<acharles>
How would I check?
<NathanKell>
check in the RO/Plugins folder
<NathanKell>
Oh wait
<NathanKell>
if you have descent mode on pods, then it's working
<acharles>
[LOG 17:16:32.908] AssemblyLoader: Loading assembly at /Users/acharles/KSPRO/122/GameData/RealismOverhaul/Plugins/RealismOverhaul.dll
<acharles>
I get those two lines, so it should, work?
<NathanKell>
yep, if you get no error after then you should be ok
<NathanKell>
then I have no idea why MM's ordering is different
<NathanKell>
verify you have only one MM dll, just in case?
<NathanKell>
and it's 2.7.6
<Bornholio>
doublecheck you don't have double RO folders hidden somewhere
<acharles>
Yeah, 2.7.6
<acharles>
Oh, I am on Mac.
<acharles>
I usually play on windows
<acharles>
Perhaps that makes a difference?
<acharles>
But anyways, RP-0 and RealismOverhaul aren’t ordered, so shouldn’t the config patches for avionics have :AFTER[RealismOverhaul] instead?
<NathanKell>
RP comes after Re
<NathanKell>
so yes they are ordered
<blowfish>
Okay, going to release RF today, this will almost certainly be the last release for KSP 1.2.2. Anything that absolutely needs to go in but is not in master?
<NathanKell>
blowfish: not that I know of
<acharles>
Ah, it orders by ‘mod name’
<NathanKell>
It orders by:
<NathanKell>
FIRST
<NathanKell>
Legacy (no pass specifier)
<acharles>
I meant, within a category.
<acharles>
I read the docs for MM. :)
<acharles>
Well, a while ago.
<NathanKell>
then, for each mod found, sorted in alpha in three groups (all mods from dll, then all mods from FOR, then all mods from folders in gamedata root), BEFORE, FOR, AFTER
<NathanKell>
then FINAL
<NathanKell>
so :FOR[blah] runs after FOR[z] if z.dll exists and blah.dll does not
<acharles>
weird
<acharles>
Anyways, it works now.
<NathanKell>
cool
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<acharles>
It’s ironic that I keep complaining that things that make the game harder don’t work for me…
<acharles>
And thanks
<egg>
Red5: so how are you doing
<Red5>
I am well, egg. You?
<egg>
Red5: good, principia is also doing well, also I has a job
<egg>
Red5: you know about Principia's lunar releases right?
<Red5>
Yeah.
<Red5>
What kind of job?
<egg>
Red5: i18n at YouTube
<Red5>
i18n?
<Qboid>
Red5: [i18n] => Internationalization
<Red5>
Thanks, Qboid.
<Red5>
Was this prompted by the runaway success of your math videos?
<egg>
haha
<egg>
nah, by me interviewing there :-p
<Red5>
Kidding aside, congrats!
<egg>
Red5: so my 2-person team owns the language & country selector at the bottom of the site in a sense :-p
<egg>
quite a few languages
<Red5>
That's awesome. So technically a google employee?
<egg>
Red5: yep
<egg>
Red5: more than technically, quite a lot of stuff is common, we meet with Google i18n regularly
<lamont>
KSPs API makes me feel better about the crap code I write at work…
<egg>
(YouTube having its own i18n is a bit of a historical artifact but that means we can pioneer stuff for the main i18n team :-p)
<egg>
lamont: oh it is nuts
<Red5>
What is the origin of the i18n moniker?
<egg>
it gets nuttier every time you look at it
<egg>
Red5: dunno, typing being hard probably
<egg>
it's i[18 letters]n
<egg>
!csharp "nternationalizatio".Count
<Red5>
Ah.
<Qboid>
(1,23): error CS0428: Cannot convert method group `Count' to non-delegate type `object'. Consider using parentheses to invoke the method
<egg>
!csharp "nternationalizatio".Count()
<Qboid>
18
<egg>
Red5: see also l10n, g11n...
<egg>
localization, globalization
<Red5>
a12n
<Red5>
acronymization
<Bornholio>
otherwise known as the sound of bullshit hitting the dirt
<egg>
yeah
<egg>
Bornholio: nah that's more of a s3t sound
<Bornholio>
in the military doing that stuff enables the stupid to talk about something they don't understand, see also jargon
<Red5>
See also: Term of art.
<Red5>
Which, coincidentally, is a term of art.
<Bornholio>
.smile
<Bornholio>
i like internally redundant backronyms
<Bornholio>
the tomcat one was missing Iranian colors
<Red5>
4th pic...
<Bornholio>
man blasted past it
Pap|GoneFishin is now known as Pap
<Bornholio>
pap|caughtbigone
<Pap>
!tell Max* Yeah, it was my install that was bugging out, after I completed one Altitude Sounding Rocket, they were fine
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid>
Pap: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [30.07.2017 17:45:38]: "Not seeing anything for that link"
<Red5>
Funny anecdote about the Iranian F-14s: After the revolution they were concerned about being able to maintain them without access to spares. Canada, looking to replace their aging fighter fleet, was in negotiations to buy them but the deal got axed when Canadian diplomats helped smuggle US diplomats out of Iran.
<Pap>
Bornholio: Didn't catch a damn thing, story of fishing in IL
<Bornholio>
at least you're safe from mercury
<Pap>
Truth
<Pap>
Possibly not Lyme Disease however
<Bornholio>
I designed Mercury analysis equipment in a former life, and IL/MI set up insine standards for water quality and mercury
<Bornholio>
insane
<Pap>
Like in a good way?
<Bornholio>
well so high that when i breathed on samples the got contaminated by mercury above legal limit
<Bornholio>
not actual joke
<lamont>
for awhile bezos got enamoured with i18n being clever
<lamont>
personalization was p13n
<Bornholio>
but people misread pron
<lamont>
there was the a9 search engine which was amazon.com with the 9 last characters replaced by 9, signifying how search was going to become the new amazon.com and they’d knock google off their throne (spoiler: didn’t work out)
<lamont>
negative apoapsis values now result in hyperbolic orbits, plus the changes in master on mechjeb — so proc fairings now auto jettison, burns can be merged in the node editor, and the midly annoying node executor autowarp bug should be fixed now
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<github>
[RP-0] lamont-granquist opened pull request #737: remove old Tree.cfg from .gitignore (master...lcg/un-git-ignore-old-tree) https://git.io/v78Ua
<lamont>
Pap ^^^^ ????
<Pap>
What does that mean?
<lamont>
ah the old Tree.cfg was being .gitignored so it was generated and then would eventually wind up being packaged but would not dirty the repo — which renders it ‘invisible’ to the casual git user, which means it could easily get packaged alongside the new tree
<blowfish>
!tell NathanKell* just released RF, mind updateing the OP when you get a chance?
<Qboid>
blowfish: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
Oh, thanks Lamont, yeah, it is not needed going forward any longer
<lamont>
by removing it from .gitignore it shows up as dirtying the repo which is a huge hint to delete the thing
Red5 is now known as Red5|AFK
<lamont>
if i hadn’t been paying attention i would have easily created a package with both the old + new tree configs in it
<lamont>
‘git clean -ffdx’ did blow it away, but i know that offhand because i use git an awful lot at work, most KSP git users probably don’t know that one…
<Pap>
That is a good catch for sure. I am guessing I would have forgotten about it completely
<lamont>
travis seems to hate me, but it seems unrelated?
<lamont>
lets see how badly i’ve borked my install now…
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<taniwha>
why not kill Tree.cfg (old) entirely? (ie, no longer generate it)
<Pap>
taniwha: We probably should, I just didn't want to ruin anything if there were RP-0 Hotfixes for the current version
<Pap>
Bornholio: are you around?
<Bornholio>
yes
<taniwha>
Pap: that's what branches are for
<taniwha>
(hotfixes can go on a hotfix branch)
<Pap>
Was there a reason that you put the TF configs for the NTR's at almost perfect for the ignitionReliability and cycleReliability?
<Pap>
^^^ Don't mean for this to sound rude, I am actually asking
<Bornholio>
fo now mostly just copies of NERVA
<Bornholio>
for
<taniwha>
technically, you do not ignite an NTR
<Pap>
Ah, makes sense then, so the errors would come while it is already running
<Bornholio>
well starts=ignitions
<taniwha>
failure for "ignition" would be failure to pull the control rods
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 closed pull request #1720: Add Non-notional NTR engines to RO using stock/vens (master...master) https://git.io/vQAsV
<Bornholio>
yeah, now i can add methane configs :P
<Pap>
Bornholio: thanks for all the work!
<Pap>
When you do add the configs, make sure you put it as a hyphen instead of a space, so should read like this: KIWIA24-Methane
<Bornholio>
I'm also working on the other engines but i have to make assumptions. Good to know pap
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<Pap>
Sorry I took so long getting them integrated
<Bornholio>
lol just more time for me to crash KSP
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 closed pull request #727: Add cost and technology for RO nuclear thermal rockets added by #1720 (master...master) https://git.io/vQAsA
<github>
RP-0/master 4b4bb9b Pap: Merge pull request #738 from KSP-RO/revert-736-master...
<NathanKell>
blowfish: edited
<Pap>
NathanKell: Should I hold off on merging the new Sounding Rockets into the master? It could potentially mess up careers because it changes the Altitude Records
<NathanKell>
Yeah I think we need a dev branch again
<NathanKell>
that said, uncrewed altitude records don't mean much
<NathanKell>
but we'll need a dev branch anyway for the launch costs
<Pap>
Yeah, that works for me
<NathanKell>
so might as well stick it there
<NathanKell>
lamont: Did you look at the error? It's nuts, it says no names found, implying travis's clone doesn't have tags (!)
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 created Developmental (+1 new commit): https://git.io/v78kz
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 59ef741 pap1723: Add New Sounding Rockets Contracts
<NathanKell>
lamont: a local `git describe --tags --long` (which is what makeversion does) works fine, so I dunno about travis.
<NathanKell>
It better not fail on a release.
<Pap>
!tell Max* I merged your Sounding Rockets Contracts into a New Branch called Developmental. I didn't want to screw anyone's current career up and we will work from there with the Launch Costs as well
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<github>
RP-0/master 7dcb7e4 pap1723: Added @Bornholio NTR Engines to Tree with Costs
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<Starwaster>
Just can't figure MJ's PID sometimes... having a hell of a time with my spaceplane and wanting MJ to control it and it can't... and then I feed it what I think are some shit parameters and it starts flying straight
<github>
[RP-0] lamont-granquist reopened pull request #737: remove old Tree.cfg from .gitignore (master...lcg/un-git-ignore-old-tree) https://git.io/v78Ua
<lamont>
^ NathanKell, Pap travis green now
<NathanKell>
\o/
<lamont>
(i didn’t do anything, i just forced it to run again)
<Starwaster>
lamont please be careful with ripping things out
<ferram4>
Rip and tear?
<Starwaster>
MJ may not be perfect but it works and it's evolved over time. You can't just replace entire sections without something losing functionality
<Starwaster>
like corrective steering borked
<lamont>
some surgeons enjoy the blood and cutting in surgery...
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<leudaimon>
NathanKell, just watched your RIS latest video... I'm not as advanced as you think... have completed the astronaut complex, but didn't even start the landing and adv. exploration techs. Went for rocketry nodes first (I want the ascent/descent engines for landing)... but I have a higher R&D rate than you, at 2.5/day
<leudaimon>
oh, and I have probes on their way to all planets from mercury to jupiter now... I'm hoping to get orbiters in all but mercury
<Starwaster>
in fact, adding just about any new feature is liable to break something, like managing air breather throttling so that they don't flame out (borked)
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<blowfish>
what's this about air-breathers?
<Starwaster>
jet engines
<Starwaster>
MJ has a setting that throttles them back if the air is getting too thin, until it reaches a setting where they can still function
<Starwaster>
prevents them from flaming out (until of course there just isn't enough air at any throttle setting)
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Cool, will have a look after supper
<NathanKell>
got partway through but FOOOOD
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: you say that...When do you think you'll go for the moon, another 50 days past where you are? :P
<leudaimon>
nope, no way
<Starwaster>
huh, my old USR modem has surfaced from the depths of the junk in my room... I wonder when the last time I used it was
<NathanKell>
Ok, then I think I'll have first boots and you'll have the station ~50-100 days before I set foot on the moon
<NathanKell>
US ROBOTICS \o/
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|NOMZ
<leudaimon>
I'm saving money for unlocks and maybe the hideously expansive R&D building
<leudaimon>
lol
<leudaimon>
if you get to the moon before I completed the station I made the right decision, there was no way I would get the landing before that
<Starwaster>
oh shit.... I don't often use IVA but I'm sitting in an OPT plane admiring the glass cockpit and I'm wondering... huh... why is O. Pressure (oxygen pressure?) blinking frantically like that... then I realize it's not an O, it's a D.... (dynamic pressure.... ooops)
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<lamont>
huh, prevent flameouts got borked?
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<Starwaster>
lamont, yeah, I suspect it's another casualty of throttle limit changes. At the time I wasn't doing spaceplanes so I never noticed
<Starwaster>
there were also other changes to how intake air is handled so that could also be a factor
<lamont>
yeah i haven’t played around with SSTOs since like 0.90 i think
<taniwha>
can throttling down still prevent flameout?
<lamont>
i’m slightly surprised that got borked in the throttle limiter
<taniwha>
(It seemed to me it it couldn't since 1.0)
<Starwaster>
yes, throttling down can prevent flameouts because it lowers the requirement for air
<lamont>
even in 0.90 there was some level at which you always flamed out, even with the throttle limits, and it would always kill one side first and would always throw you into a flat spin
<Starwaster>
the only that that really changed with it was that it doesn't count towards mass flow, otherwise, with the high Isp that jet engines get, it would cut their fuel consumption rates down past what they should get
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<Starwaster>
uh and the unbalanced thing I think was mostly fixed too
<Starwaster>
they did something to how resources flow that in part was because of the intake issue?
<Starwaster>
maybe when NathanKell|NOMZ gets back from NOMZing he can speak as to whats what
<Starwaster>
or... were those changes post-Nathan?
<Starwaster>
I forget
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<Starwaster>
but anyway, yes, throttling down will reduce intake requirements and avoid flameout
<taniwha>
my experience indicates reducing intake requirements makes no difference
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<taniwha>
(not accurately measured, however)
<Starwaster>
oh my..... Just Cause 3 Multiplayer seems to be out of beta and has gone to Steam....
<Starwaster>
hell YEAH multiplayer JC3
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<NathanKell>
o/
<NathanKell>
so, jets?
<NathanKell>
Starwaster / lamont
<NathanKell>
what's the question?
<lamont>
SSTOs circa 0.90 would always flameout on one side or the other and spin, so best practice was to only have one jet engine (pre-RAPIER days)
<lamont>
did that get fixed so balanced jet engines would flame out balanced?
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<NathanKell>
Mostly yes
<NathanKell>
The issue is with how partmodules work.
<NathanKell>
Jets are engines like any other
<NathanKell>
they request resources
<NathanKell>
They do the requests in order of existence
<NathanKell>
so one engine will request before the next engine, etc
<NathanKell>
intakes also 'create' air in order of existence
<lamont>
ah so one has enough air, and then the other doesn't
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<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
so I changed things for 1.0
<NathanKell>
sorry brb 1sec
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<NathanKell>
back
<xShadowx>
that waas a very long second
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<NathanKell>
lamont: so, basically, engines now scale the amount of flow by the air density (y'know, like real jets). And they flame out at 0.05x the original flow amount. Now, of course, speeding up also increases flow (jets, again) but speeding up also increases intake flow (that too was very broken). So it says somewhere near in sync, and anyway unless you have way too few intakes *or* use the wrong *kind*
<NathanKell>
of intake (subsonic intake with a RAPIER or turboram) your engine will flame out from lack of air density before it flames out from lack of IntakeAir resource.
<NathanKell>
Starwaster ^
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<acharles>
NathanKell: Should RN’s molniya block l’s have more than 1 ignition?
<NathanKell>
I wasn't aware of block I being able to ignite more than once
<acharles>
So, why do the other S1.5400’s have 5?
<NathanKell>
wait block I or block L ?
<NathanKell>
I thought you said block i
<NathanKell>
I
<NathanKell>
Block L does reignite, yes.
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<NathanKell>
taniwha: you've seen Planetes yes?
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<acharles>
NathanKell: yes, L
<acharles>
Not I/i
<acharles>
Darn fonts.
<NathanKell>
then yes it should have multiple ignitions
<blowfish>
NathanKellL do you have NetKAN write access?
<blowfish>
s/L/:/
<Qboid>
blowfish meant to say: NathanKe:lL do you have NetKAN write access?
<blowfish>
well, I guess that's not case sensitive
<NathanKell>
I *think* I still do?
<blowfish>
okay, there is an issue with RF's metadata now due to the KSP version being hard-coded into the NetKAN file
<acharles>
NathanKell: cool, added that change to my other set of changes.
<blowfish>
basically v12.2.3 is marked as compatible with KSP 1.2.2 even though it should only be for KSP 1.3
<NathanKell>
oh crap
<NathanKell>
and we don't have a .version
<blowfish>
yeah
<blowfish>
going to try to clean this all up after but for now fixing the metadata is probably more important
<blowfish>
a couple of options: (1) merge my PR to NetKAN and let it update the metadata or (2) Update CKAN meta directly
<Qboid>
[#5729] title: RealFuels v12.2.2 is not indexed | I released`v12.2.2` and `v12.2.3` too quickly, NetKAN did not run in between. As a consequence, `v12.2.2` is not indexed. This version is important because it's the last version for KSP 1.2.2 (`v12.2.3` is for KSP 1.3, or should be once the bot runs for #5726)... | https://github.com/KSP-CKAN/NetKAN/issues/5729
<NathanKell>
ferram4: "Therefore, you will need to [INSERT INSTRUCTIONS ON WHAT TO DO]" <3
<ferram4>
NathanKell, I need to put together instructions on how to generate the modified thermo database since I don't think the RPA Lite license allows modification + redistribution of stuff in it.
<blowfish>
I think most if their data comes from academic papers, right?
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<ferram4>
Well, yes. But I don't know if the format allows relicensing as something strict or not.
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<blowfish>
okay good, at least v12.2.3 metadata is good now
<NathanKell>
ferram4: The guide makes sense to me btw
<github>
RP-0/master 5b25164 NathanKell: Add launch costs and rework other KCT bits by adding a new preset. @ppboyle it works fine for me. NOTE: Requires setting fund gain and fund loss both to 500%, may require save file editing to set them to 5x in the SFS (I forget how high you can set them ingame).
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<NathanKell>
!tell Maxsim* there, pushed. Works fine for me. Try it out. NOTE: You will need to select it as a preset (it's RP0LC not RP0). Note also that rollout times are now a significant portion of the total time.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
hey all o/ when I switch the ProceduralAvionics part to 'upperStage' and the tier to 'interplanetaryProbes', the game becomes crazy laggy. when I switch the tier or the avionics-type, it's all good again. this is repeatable, and only happens for that particular avionics type/tier. can someone confirm?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah. utilization was above 200%... when I lowered that, the lag disappeared oO
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I like the explanations in https://github.com/lamont-granquist/MechJeb2/wiki , but it does not go into why sometimes PEG calculates 8.8km/s necessary for orbit, and sometimes 9.5km/s, despite identical periapsis/apoapsis. my suspicion is that it's got to do with burn-time? TWR?
<Starwaster>
probably
<Starwaster>
remember that not all of your delta-v you spend goes into your final orbit
<Starwaster>
there's drag losses, gravity losses and steering losses
<Starwaster>
drag losses are probably going to be negligible even in stock unless you do a really shallow ascent
<Starwaster>
gravity losses will be severe if you have too steep an ascent and steering losses come from anything not burned prograde
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
here's the delta-v readout: http://i.imgur.com/iXgF9pf.png - I had PEG set to 0.6 degrees per second, and between 90 and 100 seconds of pitch
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
it's extremely close to other designs I had for LEO (this one's for TLI), and the delta-v estimation is just completely different
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
need to read more about PEG to understand why :p
<ProjectThoth>
That start TWR is freakishly high.
<ProjectThoth>
Unless 1.50 isn't the sea-level value.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ProjectThoth: yet according to the wiki, it can deal with anything between 1.01 and 1.6
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
no :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
1.32 is the SLT
<ProjectThoth>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I mean, that thing's gonna be hauling ass once it burns out.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Sea Level Thrust, I reckon
<ProjectThoth>
Yeah, even with 1.32.
<Starwaster>
I'd be more concerned with the low delta-v of that first stage
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
do you keep a certain ratio between stage one and two?
<ProjectThoth>
Depends on Isp and pfm.
<ProjectThoth>
*pmf
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ok. good thing this stage still has some leeway, going to try and stretch S1
<ProjectThoth>
I've generally found (on paper) that the ideal delta-v partition is calculated as a ratio between the product of two stages' pmf and Isp.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ProjectThoth: I passed my math exams due to my boyish good looks
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:p
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
does 1.18 SLT sound more reasonable to you?
<ProjectThoth>
So you'd have, say (pmf1 * Isp1) / (pmf2 * Isp2) for the STG1:STG2 delta-v ratio.
<ProjectThoth>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I passed my math exams due to sheer luck.
<ProjectThoth>
And, yeah, I'd say that seems more reasonable.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ProjectThoth: elaborate :p
<ProjectThoth>
Hypergolic_Skunk: By luck I mean bribery.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:O
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
you brought fresh donuts and coffee?
<ProjectThoth>
Yes.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
always works.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
if only I'd known..
<ProjectThoth>
Uh, can you post the mass data on that little fellow?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
sure, gimme a sec
<ProjectThoth>
I just wanna look at the ratio to give you an idea.
<ProjectThoth>
Oh, vac values on both engines, that's important.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Wet mass of the entire stack is 144.934 mT, when S1 is burned out, it weighs 48.274 mT. S2 wet is 42.958 mT, dry it's 5.550 mT
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
S1 engine is an LR105-NA-6, ASL ISP is 217, Vac ISP is 313
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
err, sorry, wrong
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
that's S2
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
S1 engines are two H-1/RS-27, ASL ISP is 255, Vac is 289
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
before you give me a result, let me try and put that into the calculator myself :p
<ProjectThoth>
Gah, late-night math.
<ProjectThoth>
Okay, I'm getting a really high pmf on S1.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
is that good/bad/important?
<ProjectThoth>
S1's total wet mass should be 144.934 - 42.958 = 101.976.
<ProjectThoth>
Going off of your numbers.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
but 42.958 is after staging
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so interstage + fairings gone
* ProjectThoth
thinks.
<ProjectThoth>
Oh, is 48.274 the mass of the *whole stack* at S1 burnout?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yes
<ProjectThoth>
Okay... let me see if I can calculate the pmf from those figures.
<ProjectThoth>
So the total dry mass of S1 should be 48.274 - 42.958 = 5.316 tons?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I got a result of 2.3803 something
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so I'd assume S2 needs to have 2.3803 times the delta-v of S1?
<ProjectThoth>
And the total propellant mass is 144.934 - 48.274 = 96.66 tons?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh, you don't count the rest of the rocket in the dry-mass?
<ProjectThoth>
Nope, just of that stage by itself.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah, sorry
<ProjectThoth>
No worries.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
then I guess your numbers are correct.
<ProjectThoth>
0.948 on S1 seems a bit high, unless it's a balloon tank.
<ProjectThoth>
(or semi-monoque, if RO simulates it)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
nah, that doesn't sound right, as the tank itself only has 86% utilization
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
and it's a default tank
<ProjectThoth>
Any way you could yoink that stage off and get the figures on it?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
trying. re-rooting sometimes crashes my game. let's roll the dice...
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
S1 without the interstage + fairing?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
or S1 without S2 + rest?
<ProjectThoth>
S1 without interstage and fairing.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
gotcha
<ProjectThoth>
Just by itself, should suffice.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ok, wet: 100.955 mT
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
dry: 4.296 mT
<ProjectThoth>
Hmm, still about 0.956.
<ProjectThoth>
*0.957.
<ProjectThoth>
Oh well, we can calculate this anyway.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
is that unrealistic? I normally leave the Utilization value untouched.
<ProjectThoth>
So going off of that, and estimating with more period-friendly values... (0.940 * 289) / (0.950 * 313).
<ProjectThoth>
With what you currently have, (0.957 * 289) / (0.959 * 313).
<ProjectThoth>
So assuming you don't touch the slider, S1 should have a delta-v of about 0.921x that of S2.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so no S1 just lobbing the rocket above the atmosphere, it's got to do some work, too
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
which means this rocket will have to be majorly overpowered for its parking orbit in LEO
<ProjectThoth>
So assuming LEO and a start TWR of 1.2ish, that should be... about 4.406 km/s for S1 and 4.789 km/s for S2.
<ProjectThoth>
Which, looking at the stats, implies making S1 larger and shrinking S2.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
thank you very much, ProjectThoth :)
<ProjectThoth>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Well, don't thank me yet, I hope it works. :P
<ProjectThoth>
But that should alleviate the delta-v woes a little.
<ProjectThoth>
And I think I see why, upon looking at the staging stuff.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
so far I had assumed PEG wants me to have a 1/3 to 2/3 ratio between S1 and S2
<ProjectThoth>
Because the delta-v on S1 is so low (2.5 km/s), you're not going very fast when lighting S2, and the TWR is naturally pretty low. So you have to burn off a lot of propellant to get it to be >1, and that's where you're just burning empty prop.
<ProjectThoth>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Again, on-paper stuff, but I've found it has to be a balance between Isp and pmf. You want to give more propellant-efficient stages the lion's share of the delta-v to make it smaller, but you also have to consider performance. Otherwise it'd just select heavily in favor of Isp, which would imply LOX/LH2 only.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I have the RL10, but it's too weak for this particular S2
<ProjectThoth>
Yeah.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I cannot get S1 to that amount of delta-v without exceeding rated burn-time, but it's close... in the ball-park, I'd say
<ProjectThoth>
Any solids?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I'm allergic to solids :P
<ProjectThoth>
Duct tape a few Minutemen around the bottom? :P
<ProjectThoth>
But, I mean, 400-500 m/s either way probably won't kill you.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I'm just wondering wether that'll confuse PEG
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
due to higher thrust, then lower thrust
* ProjectThoth
shrugs.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh, and now the burn times are too low
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
this calls for a redesign :3
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
now solids make sense.....
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
because the S1 engine can burn for 5 minutes...
<ProjectThoth>
Yeah, just a couple o' small ones around the first stage. Should solve the problem fairly neatly.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh well. at least that'll give me a nice korolev-cross
<ProjectThoth>
Only other thing I could think to do would be to make it four stages.
<ProjectThoth>
TLI stage plus three to LEO.
<ProjectThoth>
Or, I unno, some kind of weird inverted Atlas.
<ProjectThoth>
Like, light the outer two engines, light the sustainer mid-flight, and then stage off the skirt.
<ProjectThoth>
That'd probably net you another 1-2 tons to LEO.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I've never tried that. but I mistook the S1 engine for another one... it can only burn 2m 30s... so I need either two powerful radial boosters, or just a long-burning S2
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
which would then have the brunt of the delta-v work.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
which would mean I'd really need to make it have 9.5km/s for parking-orbit of 141km
<ProjectThoth>
And if you do that, make sure S2's TWR is almost exactly or greater than 1.
<ProjectThoth>
I unno, I like the anti-Atlas. Worth an experiment.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D
<ProjectThoth>
Bonus funds for parachuting back the skirt?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
no, I'm enemies with the ocean-people
<ProjectThoth>
Ah.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
pity I don't have powerful hypergolics yet, or else... :D
<ProjectThoth>
Oh, man, that'd be cool.
<ProjectThoth>
Sadly, I'm about three hours past bedtime, so I'm gonna have to go pass out.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
good night dude :) and thanks again
<ProjectThoth>
I'll be back in 9-10 hours, so !msg me the results if you're not in!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
will do
<ProjectThoth>
No worries. Best of luck!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
thanks :)
<ProjectThoth>
See ya. \o
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<Probus>
He was nice enough to recompile it for RO.
<Probus>
1.2 I mean. It lets you categorize your launchers, list payload weight to different orbits or destinations. Give it a try and a like if you like it.
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Probus: sounds cool. do you think installing it on an ongoing career would be a problem?
<Probus>
I am going to try it right now on my career game to make sure it works properly. Its still in development.
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<Probus>
Hmmm... It needs some tweaking for 1.2.2. I can't get it to save the rockets. I will leave him some feedback.
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ok. good to know.
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<Maxsimal>
o/
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: Pap left a message for you in #RO [31.07.2017 00:54:45]: "Yeah, it was my install that was bugging out, after I completed one Altitude Sounding Rocket, they were fine"
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: Pap left a message for you in #RO [31.07.2017 03:15:56]: "I merged your Sounding Rockets Contracts into a New Branch called Developmental. I didn't want to screw anyone's current career up and we will work from there with the Launch Costs as well"
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [31.07.2017 06:21:06]: "rollout cost is already displayed in that KCT window in the VAB! We're golden!"
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [31.07.2017 07:46:15]: "there, pushed. Works fine for me. Try it out. NOTE: You will need to select it as a preset (it's RP0LC not RP0). Note also that rollout times are now a significant portion of the total time."
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [31.07.2017 06:22:44]: "I created a fresh preset cfg and it is working fine for me. I'll pastebin mine."
<Maxsimal>
!tell NathanKell: Ok, I'll go check those out. I saw your post. Overall it looks good, though I'm a little worried that the 'human rated' stuff might be too expensive - I would have expected some of the cost of higher reliability for human rated components to already be factored into the base price
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Maxsimal>
!tell NathanKell: Also, did you add the ability to flag decouplers? I wanted to put a 10x multiplier on those (at least) since more stages seems to be one of the highest integration cost affecting factors.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Maxsimal>
!tell Pap: Ok awesome! I will grab developmental and check them out tonight. And yeah - not sure what to do about old saves, might be able to test to see if $RP0_SoundingDifficulty has been set already, I'll see what I can come up with.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Pap>
o/ Maxsimal
<Maxsimal>
Hi Pap
<Pap>
I tried installing it on an existing save and it breaks the Sounding Rocket Contracts. All of them have a target altitude of 0 km
<Maxsimal>
Yeah, I can fix that pretty easily
<Pap>
I'm fine with that since the next major release is going to break everyone's everything, that's is why we have lumped them all in togetehr
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<Maxsimal>
Ok - well, either way. Since they're supposed to depend on finishing Karman line, I can just check if those difficulty values haven't been set and give them a min appropriate for finishing karman already
<Pap>
It was good timing for me as my save had completely imploded on itself. Apparently using HyperEdit alongside KRASH had some negative consequences
<Maxsimal>
Really? I would have assumed Krash just reverts everything hyperedit would change if you do it in a sim.
<Maxsimal>
How're things going generally? Sorry I wasn't around much this weekend, got busy with some trip planning.
<Pap>
I was surprised that they did not get along. I didn't even hyperedit inside of KRASH, but I null reffed to death and then my save was telling me that I couldn't save because save games were not allowed on scenarios!
<Pap>
Maxsimal: I wasn't around too much this weekend either. After the busy summer school term, I spent some QT with my wife and daughter, but NK said that the Launch Costs look like they are going to integrate well with KCT
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<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: iirc NK wants to make an RSS release soon, will you get the new moons in there?
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<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: ah but that's not in master yet?
<Pap>
No, I didn't want to ruin anything. There is some stuff that needs to be matched with the Textures, I can merge it whenever
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<Maxsimal>
Pap: I'm happy to hear that (also sorry to be afkish, I'm at work, I really should change my nickname when I'm here)
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Do you guys have a list of stuff that you want done for the next RP0 release btw? Before it goes out, I probably should add cooldown periods to some of the other repeatable contracts to put them more in line with sounding rockets. In particular, X-planes(High) and Suborbital manned.
<Pap>
I do the same thing ans sometimes I go missing into meeitings as well
<Pap>
I think the only MAJOR thing is going to be launch costs
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<Maxsimal|Work>
Pap: Ok gotcha, so it's pretty close. I'll just look at edits for those two - I was considering if we also had to add cooldowns to the repeatable satellite contracts, but I guess for now it's not necessary.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
o/
<Theysen>
hi
<Pap>
o\
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
that looks uncomfortable :p
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Theysen: were you the one using RSS Expansion?
<Theysen>
hes shielding his face with his arms from the danger to his upper right
<Theysen>
nope Hypergolic_Skunk
<Theysen>
not playing at all atm
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah! /o\ duck and cover
<Pap>
Protection
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
speaking of Duck and Cover... when i was younger and watched it the first time with some friends, we laughed at the idea of ducking from an atom bomb.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
after having read 'Last Train from Hiroshima' that completely changed my mind. so many fates that day rested on tiny coincidences in positioning, shadowing behind objects, what clothes they were wearing, whether they ducked or not..
<Bornholio>
virtuall all my life has been lived in a place where full nuclear war would be evaporation. within a short drive if not sight of nuclear weapons. Always makes me mad when media exagerates the effects of it and thus makes understanding them impossible for the bulk of people
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Yeah, if you are far enough away that will work. The power of the weapons now compared to then is almost inconceivable though. I guess the real fear is a terrorist bomb though, which is more likely to be the size of Hiroshima
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yeah, they are nowhere near as 'clean' and binary (as in: get vaporized or survive) as media would have you believe
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: yeah absolutely.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
the actual fireball diameter would be incredibly bigger if even a one-digit megaton weapon went off
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
and the heat radiation would be much worse at much larger distances, obviously
<Bornholio>
actually they are wasteful, they are not as effective as made out to be
<Bornholio>
thats why most military weapons were shrunk down
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
still, in the book there's an eyewitness, a doctor who survived Hiroshima, then took a train to Nagasaki, and told everyone to get on the ground when the bomb went off, and saved several lives like that.
<Bornholio>
when we came off alert in 1993 there was only 1 10 megaton bomb on ready use at time in the US
<Pap>
I just learned a few weeks ago that someone survived both bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: if you have the time, and you don't mind feeling sick while reading, get 'Last Train from Hiroshima'.
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
almost exclusively eyewitness stories
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
on an unrelated note, i am trying to install RSS Expansion, but so far, when I start it up, I get Kerbin, not Earth
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
if someone's got it working, now is the time to speak up :p
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah, let me try starting it up without the RSSpatches.cfg
<Rokker>
huh
<Rokker>
ive never actually made the size comparison in my head
<Pap>
Yeah, now all the unpacking for the next 2 months!
<rsparkyc>
haha, 2 months, i wish
<rsparkyc>
probably more like 2 years
<rsparkyc>
i think when we moved out of our last house we still had unpacked boxes from the previous move
<Bornholio>
in two years that box you didn't unpack you don't need it
<xShadowx>
rsparkyc: i stil have boxes from when i moved 20 yr ago, yer fucked :P
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<rsparkyc>
lol
<Theysen>
just dump it
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<Pena>
wohoo, first orbiting sat in 1.22 RO \o/
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<xShadowx>
\o/
<Pena>
and I haven't launched from Baikonur before so that's a first
<Theysen>
github rip ?
<Bornholio>
github fine...
<Theysen>
I get a unicorn
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<Bornholio>
your in turkey and erdogan is blocking it casue retard
<Bornholio>
but sarcasm aside it looks fine from my end
<Theysen>
he'd have to get through austria first to make germany turkey and we know how that ended
<Theysen>
might be local then or so : )
<Bornholio>
ooh now releses page unicorns for me :P
<Bornholio>
you gave it a virus
<Bornholio>
is that an angry gay unicorn, full of malice and hate?
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<Rokker>
the profit margin on sounding rockets is so nice
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<Bornholio>
and now the 'corn is gone again
<Pena>
hm, 1664 funds is not very much for an orbit, I got like 270k cash for the mission and I had only about 5 tries :)
<Rokker>
asymmetrical thrust on my ullage SRMs is the best discovery ive made for sounding rockets since a few weeks back
<Pena>
asymmetrical for.. what?
<Pena>
spin?
<Rokker>
Pena: getting a slight tild
<Rokker>
tilt
<Rokker>
so that it lands off the coast
<Pena>
oh, right. pitch a bit
<Rokker>
Pena: set one to about 5% lower and i get a nice pitch
<Pena>
I usually launch mine a degree tilted on the pad already so no junk comes doen on the center
<Rokker>
that and my finless design have given me my best sounding rockets to date
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<Rokker>
Pena: finless sounding rockets are the future
<Pena>
anything you can remove without failing is good
<Pena>
and boy does it help to actually look at the correct engine's stats when you build your rocket... I was expecting a 130 second rated burn time when in reality it was 70... :D
<Pena>
it took me three "Dang it! another engine failure half way!" moments
<Rokker>
Pena: i started playing before burn times had been implemented
<Rokker>
and was not used to it at all
<Pena>
It's a nice limitation to have though, otherwise building super long-burning stages would be very efficient and easy
<Rokker>
kept fucking up my rockets and being like "why do these random engine failures keep happening at such a high rate"
<Rokker>
Pena: they definitely were
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<Pena>
now I learned to middle-click the engines to see the correct time and not look at the wrong stat in the parts catalog, go me \o/
<Rokker>
Pena: you can see them in the catalog
<Rokker>
you just gotta scroll down
<Pena>
Rokker: that's the thing, there is like 6 versions and I was looking at the wrong one all the time. middle-clicking the part only gives you one number and it's the correct one more easily
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<awang>
Has Kerbal Krash System been considered for inclusion into RO?
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<Bornholio>
some people use KRASH
<Theysen>
awang, benefits of crash enhancements?
<Theysen>
I don't see much gain
<Theysen>
ah I see, the tank leaks and such
<awang>
Yeah, pretty much that
<awang>
I wouldn't expect it to get much use
<awang>
But I think it'd be a nice touch
<Theysen>
It happened to rarely in RL to be a big factor in gameplay
<awang>
Bornholio: KRASH is different from Kerbal Krash System
<Bornholio>
yes it is
<NathanKell|WORK>
KRASH is for sims yeah
<Theysen>
I'd love a fucked up satellite because the batteries inside went poof
<NathanKell|WORK>
and o/ awang
<awang>
\o
<awang>
Has the kind of collision that Kerbal Krash System models actually ever happened in real life?
<awang>
Theysen: isn't that more a TestFlight sort of failure?
<awang>
Unless I'm not understanding "went poof" right
<Theysen>
Damaged containers leak, including leaking effects thought it might lose EC or so as the leaking resource
<awang>
Looks like it might need some tweaking to work with TestFlight
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<awang>
Also just read Whitecat's last post on the orbital decay thread
<awang>
Didn't realize modding was so inconvenient
<xShadowx>
KKS models physical denting / pancaking when collision has enough speed (sadly not force calcs), and collisons happen IRL :)
<awang>
Right
<awang>
The only collisions I can remember off the top of my head are high-speed satellite ones
<xShadowx>
smash up a gas tank on a car, they leak
<awang>
And you don't really need KKS to figure out how well that ends
<xShadowx>
heh
<xShadowx>
dont forget micro meteor shower
<xShadowx>
(which sadly KKS doesnt sim yet)
<awang>
I think that would need to go in a separate mod
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Is Agathorn around these days?
<xShadowx>
the basi mechanic of orbital micro meteorites was a mod somewhere, think it died, but then it should call KKS for the dent system
<awang>
Hm
<awang>
Does TF model any of the same failures?
<awang>
I know it models engine failures
<awang>
But idk about tank leakage/other things
<xShadowx>
TF models failures you dont 'see' ie parts inside failed, it does model tank leaks and a bunch more
<awang>
Thought all the failures were in the first link :/
<xShadowx>
he put his in root, i used folders :P
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
lol
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: I did not add the decoupler tag no, sorry. I can do that. I think though that that makes more sense as a vessel-wide multiplier, i.e. total vessel complexity is a function of stages. Cuz decouplers are cheap, except when they are part of larger parts, and then they're super expensive. It won't work as desired.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: As to the factors combining, yes, that is an issue. It's why I added those Decrease tags. Because to harmonize an Apollo capsule built out of separate parts where only the central bit is habitable (and the heatshield isn't and the cap isn't etc), with e.g. the SSTU one where it's all one part, you need to fudge the SSTU one's multiplier down.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: Or say RN's stages where a single part would have decoupler, avionics, tankage, RCS, and a few other bits
<NathanKell|WORK>
Oh, wait. We can use part multipliers then
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Yeah once we can directly set multipliers per-part, it'll all work out, this is just temporary, I thought.
<NathanKell|WORK>
We can directly set them
<NathanKell|WORK>
That's what PartVariables does.
<NathanKell|WORK>
We just can't change them during gameplay.
<NathanKell|WORK>
And we can't set partvariables via MM, it has to be physically in the cfg, which is a pain
<NathanKell|WORK>
but eh
<NathanKell|WORK>
it's fine
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: And I'm not sure that just having a multiplier that works per stage works that well either - for instance, having 1 decoupler for a sustainer stage should be higher cost than the 4 decouplers you need to attach some Castor boosters. We could adjust the base cost of the decouplers though, those REALLY don't feel like they were costed for any industry manufacturing price, they feel arbitrary.
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: I thought magico was talking about having something he could read in the part config - he'd have to implement that bit first though.
<NathanKell|WORK>
no...?
<NathanKell|WORK>
He was talking about having a new partmodule
<NathanKell|WORK>
That would have a multiplier that KCT would read at build time
<NathanKell|WORK>
that's so we can use it for say engines/RCS with varying propellant types, or tanks, etc
<NathanKell|WORK>
where the 'toxic' flag should be added or removed
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<NathanKell|WORK>
What KCT currently supports, however, is:
<Qboid>
[#163] title: Attempting to use KCT_Preset_Part_Variables | I have an avionics unit that has the tag ModuleTagAvionics, and my KCT presets file is as follows..... | https://github.com/magico13/KCT/issues/163
<NathanKell|WORK>
the problem is that both of those need to be physically in the preset cfg
<NathanKell|WORK>
they can't be MM'd in
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah hmm at least it's not using partinfo
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<NathanKell|WORK>
so we might be able to dynamically add/remove tags already
<NathanKell|WORK>
but anyway
<NathanKell|WORK>
the tl;dr is: Yes, you can set per-part multipliers right now. They just won't change during gameplay, and you have to do them by hand (in the preset cfg), not rely on MM patches.
<Pap>
So using the Spreadsheet as I have it set, we can put a value on each Module Tag and then create a total value for the part? Then export that into a simple format that we can paste on teh bottom of the Config preset?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Using module tags is fine right now
<NathanKell|WORK>
we only need to do part multipliers in special cases
<NathanKell|WORK>
like when parts combine multiple 'sub parts' and so their effective cost gets too high
<Pap>
Ahhhhhh, so the part multipliers need to be put directly into the config
<NathanKell|WORK>
(example the SSTU capsules)
<Pap>
got it
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell|Pap: But that would also let us do our own logic for how to handle when a part has multiple tags - right now we're forced to just strictly multiply them together.
<NathanKell|WORK>
the modules we can skate by on, because the KCT cfg only needs to know what multiplier a given module grants, but we can MM-add the modules to various parts elsewhere
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: Yes.
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: To be fair, with Pap's generator that actually knows every part, we could do the mathing ourselves and only output the final mult.
<NathanKell|WORK>
it's just harder :P
<Pap>
Ah, ok, with the way I setup the recent export of the tech tree, every part has its PartModule tags included in there
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah, the nice thing is we don't have to touch the preset now except for the special-est of cases
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Yes, but that's the only way I see us being able to do anything good for a mixed-use part, that or having several of these difficult for people to understand cost-decreasing tags.
<NathanKell|WORK>
if we go with exporting part mults, then you have to regenerate the preset (and have everyone reload it) any time you touch the tree
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: yeah, but there's not that many of such parts
<Pap>
Yeah, that makes the preset much harder to control
<NathanKell|WORK>
better IMO to special case them to make *every* part a special case
<NathanKell|WORK>
s/ to / than to /
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK meant to say: better IMO than to special case them to make *every* part a special case
<NathanKell|WORK>
erp
<NathanKell|WORK>
better IMO to special case them *than* to make every part a special case
<NathanKell|WORK>
There aren't that many parts that would need special casing IMO, just the SSTU pods, some RN stages, and...anything else? Maybe the airplane parts?
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Any pods with integrated heatshields.
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<Maxsimal>
Nathankell: I already didn't mark airplane stuff as 'human rated' because I was only doing 'human rated' to mean 'human rated for space'
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: Ah, yeah
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: did you see the pretty dynasoar/x-37 comparisons i linked you
<NathanKell|WORK>
and as for heatshields, hmm. Yeah, I guess so.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Rokker: yes
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: did you see the cancer i linked after that
<NathanKell|WORK>
it's not like the pod wouldn't be Reentry tagged, it's just the heat shield would not be habitable
<NathanKell|WORK>
Rokker: no
<NathanKell|WORK>
Rokker: oh wait yes
<NathanKell|WORK>
It had that zodiac thingie
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<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: blegh
<NathanKell|WORK>
or was it supposed to be Navahos?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Couldn't tell
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: idk and i dont wanna know
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Yeah just feel that the multipliers for a pod when you stack human rated, habitable, and reentry together on a part that already costs 4,000 to 10,000 gets ridiculous even with a 500% boost in contract rewards
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Launch cost of Saturn V / Apollo was ~375,000
<NathanKell|WORK>
so yes, fairly ridiculous
<NathanKell|WORK>
I would guess that Mercury-Atlas is about ~20,000 / launch, or should be.
<Maxsimal>
I just wiki'd it, it claims 185,000 on wikepdia in 1969 dollars
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah I mathed wrong, that says 412k
<NathanKell|WORK>
Probably depends on how you cost infrastructure?
<Bornholio>
I think you are insane for wanting to simulate that land of chaos
<NathanKell|WORK>
I mean, we're regularizing and making some assumptions yeah
<NathanKell|WORK>
but we more or less have to
<Red5>
I am disappointed the term "amortization" only occurs once in that article.
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<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: Oh yeah sure, and I'm not suggesting pods shouldn't cost a lot - just saying it may be too much. Let me look at your multipliers again.
<NathanKell|WORK>
IMO Human-rating should be a vessel tag
<NathanKell|WORK>
anything has it? Whole vessel gets the tag.
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<NathanKell|WORK>
That would clean part of that up
<Maxsimal>
Yeah, having just the apolla pod - not counting CM or LEM, costs >160,000 to rollout with your stuff, assuming it's tagged with reentry.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah, one thing here
<NathanKell|WORK>
We're going to need to go through and audit prices
<NathanKell|WORK>
because some of them were averages between cost and launch cost...
<NathanKell|WORK>
for example the engines
<NathanKell|WORK>
IIRC the actual cost of the H-1 should be 200, and the LR79 probably 250.
<NathanKell|WORK>
The pods probably similar
<NathanKell|WORK>
since IIRC I got the cost of the Mercury pod by dividing program cost, minus LV cost, by (some R&D factor + num flights)
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<Maxsimal>
Agreed on applying the human rated tag to the whole vessel, that makes more sense
<NathanKell|WORK>
sadly that is something KCT does not support, although would be trivial to add I think
<Maxsimal>
Yeah, tbh to push more into things like simulating manufacturing, we kind of need our own version of KCT.
<NathanKell|WORK>
for now we should probably set humanrated to 1.0
<NathanKell|WORK>
The fundamental problem of manufacturing is how to detect stages.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Everything else is easy.
<Maxsimal>
Btw, on another note, did you catch any of the discussion about proc-avionics last week? Rsparkyc says he doesn't have time to spend on it but it needs someone to go into the code, not just tune it.
<Pap>
In Maxsimal we trust! (for fixing Proc Avionics)
<rsparkyc>
go for it :)
<rsparkyc>
for the record, i don't have time _right now_
<rsparkyc>
in a few months, that might change
<Maxsimal>
>.< Ehh, maybe. I need to set up a dev environment and mess with it sometime, but I hate the whole process of getting a solution compiling for the first time - after that it's not so bad.
<soundnfury>
Red5: I am disappointed that the article talks about paying the "principle" on loans :(
<soundnfury>
o/ rsparkyc
<soundnfury>
how goes?
<rsparkyc>
o/
<rsparkyc>
it goes, finally moved into the new house
<soundnfury>
huzzah!
<rsparkyc>
have plenty of unpaking to do
<rsparkyc>
along with my actual job
<Red5>
soundnfury: I work in banking and I see that even in internal documents from people who should know better. :/
<rsparkyc>
in the last month i've only worked 1 week
<NathanKell|WORK>
yo snf!
<NathanKell|WORK>
finally did a RIS stream!
<NathanKell|WORK>
rsparkyc: Great to hear! :) Good luck with the unpacking!
<rsparkyc>
thx NK
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: yeah, I saw. Haven't had time to watch it yet, maybe after dinner
<NathanKell|WORK>
and looks like I'll get lunar landing not that much after leudaimon gets first station (I estimated a hundred days or so). So \o/
<NathanKell|WORK>
Unless you beat me :P
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<NathanKell|WORK>
From that nautix link:
<NathanKell|WORK>
>So the alternative is a low-cost-to-manufacture expendable system
<NathanKell|WORK>
>The Delta IV was a first attempt at this
<NathanKell|WORK>
HAHAHHAHAHAH
<soundnfury>
*snrk*
<Rokker>
yay for accidentally bombarding cuba
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: it was
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: it was just a shit attempt
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<blowfish>
where does all the Delta IV's cost come from? Is the RS-68 just not cheap or something else?
<Pap>
blowfish: the RL10 is something like 26M
<Rokker>
FOR FUCKS SAKE
<Rokker>
NO ITS NOT
<Rokker>
god dammit
<NathanKell|AWAY>
It's 30?
<Rokker>
im so fuckign tired of people quoting that the rl10 is super expensive
<Rokker>
its not
<Rokker>
tory bruno has said its not
<Rokker>
l2 has said its not
<Rokker>
what more do people need
<Bornholio>
QC fourty times, then QC a few more times just cause then have very expensive laywers spend a few thousand hours
<Pap>
But the artlcles that Ihave read, including some by senators investigating the costs have said that it is
<Bornholio>
then take a loan out so you can put it on the books 7 years later
<Rokker>
Pap: so do you trust senators or the head of the company that actually buys them
<Red5>
I thought the problem with Delta being cheap/high volume was hydrolox engines not scaling up as cheaply as previously thought.
<blowfish>
RL10 isn't unique to the Delta IV though ... what sets it apart from everything that has used a Centaur?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
If the rest of your LV makes an RL10 look cheap....
<Rokker>
first off, i dont think the delta is THAT bad
<xShadowx>
<Rokker> yay for accidentally bombarding cuba <- sure "accident" ;)
<Pap>
Well, I don't trust any of them. But the cost of the vehicle is not in argument, so where is the cost actually coming from?
<lamont>
how much of the vehicle cost is bloated beurocracy and management?
<Red5>
0. Those aren't vehicle costs.
<Red5>
Vehicle cost is typically a smaller fraction of total launch cost.
<Rokker>
a delta ivh is only like 435 million
<lamont>
yeah, but nobody cuts a check for bloated bureaucracy
<Rokker>
how much did the titan iv cost?
<Rokker>
about the same for less payload?
<Rokker>
ok
<Rokker>
cool
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Titan IV was insanely expensive though :P
<Rokker>
exactly
<Red5>
lamont, those costs get rolled into the launch cost. But they shouldn't be considered a part of vehicle cost.
<NathanKell|AWAY>
What are you going to do, compare to STS next?
<Rokker>
so why do people conveniently forget about it and go to the delta iv when discussing expensive vehicles
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Because it was so expensive even the YooSaf noticed
<lamont>
bad management is going to get baked into costs all around
<Red5>
Because DIV was meant to be a cost reducting rocket?
<blowfish>
apparently Atlas V is somewhat cheaper so it can't just be the RL10
<Rokker>
lamont: it sure as shit gets baked into the Shuttle
<Rokker>
Red5: so was the titan IV in a sense
<NathanKell|AWAY>
(to be fair USAF is better than some NASA centers ^_^)
<Rokker>
iirc it was supposed to be all round better than the shuttle
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Blowfish Atlas is cheap because of the RD180
<NathanKell|AWAY>
And kerolox core obvs
<blowfish>
which is amusing considering it has the highest chamber pressure of any engine that has flown
<Pap>
Falcon 9 is the cheapest option currently, correct?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
But cheap cuz Russia
<Red5>
Production volume tho.
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Pap yeah
<Red5>
F9 is priced below cost AFAIK.
<Pap>
But the Delta IV Heavy is the only LV available right now that can puch as much Mass into GEO until Falcon Heavy comes online?
<Rokker>
back the the RL10
<Rokker>
the only cases where i have seen the RL10 being expensive is in a single engine purchase
<Rokker>
which if you are buying a single of any engine or part its probably gonna be expensive
<Sarbian>
lamont: rip away. And don't use me as an excuse ;)
<Rokker>
but that price drops dramatically the more you buy
<blowfish>
Pap: allegedly the FH will initially only be able to push 10t GTO due to structural limits on the payload adapter
<lamont>
ah fuck, that’s like a huge project
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<lamont>
and its guaranteed to have edge conditions that xkcd someone out there
<Sarbian>
lamont: or point me toward the source, I need an excuse to not work on the UI revamp ;)
<Pap>
I had read that as well blowfish, but then I thought it was proven to be wrong because the person who did that calculation was basing it on the Falcon 9 and the FH Core is shown to be different
<Rokker>
Pap: spacex's cheapness comes at a price
<Rokker>
for both its workers and quality assurance
<lamont>
here’s an extracted version of the kOS PIDLoop class:
<lamont>
since i was plagiarizing heavily from mechjeb to make that codebase, it should be mostly ported to mechjeb already there
<Sarbian>
ok, I ll have a look after the few urgent bugs on my list
<dxdy>
quick question regarding that mechjeb peg thing: when I do it, as soon as I stage to the second stage it stops working, it goes from peg active and working to unguided gravity turn and crashes soon after
<dxdy>
(the rocket crashes that is, not the game)
<lamont>
click ‘reinitialize stage analysis’ and it should recover
<dxdy>
I tried that, but it doesn't, unfortunately. it correctly reads the dv of the stage, but the two numbers after that are both NaN
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
dxdy: can you make screens of your delta-v readout in the VAB, and of your PEG window?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
lamont: I love PEG, but that almost never works
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
(for me, at least)
<dxdy>
I can, but those match, at least when I launch, I already checked that, it reads the dv correctly on all the stages
<lamont>
weird
<lamont>
yeah the bugginess is all around tracking the stages during flight though
<lamont>
identification on the ground is fairly trivial
<dxdy>
I'm doing a staging entry for the decouplers and another one for the engines, can that be a problem?
<lamont>
no, that should be fine
<lamont>
hot staging where you have engines below the decouples and sep motors will confuse it
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<dxdy>
mh, interestingly enough, when I try it with mj's autostaging on, it continues to work, although the game crashes when it comes to the stage after that one
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<lamont>
that is…. odd...
<dxdy>
although that actually may be due to the rocket itself exploding
<Sarbian>
and no error spam in the logs ?
<lamont>
so make sure the ‘num stages’ makes sense
<dxdy>
I'll have to check that, running with nolog for unrealted reasons so I can only see it live
<dxdy>
that is a fair point
<lamont>
the number there in parens is what PEG is currently using, while the textbox is used to update it (this is so PEG can countdown to 1, while the textbox doesn’t get reset every launch)
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<Bornholio>
lamont what does Terminal guidance period change?
<lamont>
TL;DR is set it at 10 seconds and don’t touch it
<Bornholio>
On my own page even LOL
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<lamont>
RT your own FM
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Bornholio: if I understood it right, if towards the end of your S2 burn the pitch is varying up and down wildly and for no apparent reason, increase the terminal guidance
<lamont>
so far i haven’t seen any rockets start to flail before 10 seconds though
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I have :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
but that was before the wiki came into existence
<lamont>
Agathorn?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
and I haven't seen it since
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
no
<lamont>
heh
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
PEG was switching wildly between values and NaN
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
had to take over manually to rescue the mission
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
another question: if I switch from a vessel back to the Space Center and it is (partly) underwater, is there any solution besides the obligatory restart of KSP ? :)
<dxdy>
if that particular issue occurs for me, it's sufficient to go to any of the buildings per the buttons ont he left and then back to the space center again and it's back to its normal non-atlantean place
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah! good to know, thanks :)
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<Pap>
I mean, the KSC is built in a swamp, it "could" happen /s
<lamont>
oh yeah, i’ve wound up with global warming covering KSC with water
<lamont>
looks like reddy released proper space shuttle PEG kOS code
<Bornholio>
.looks kOS desire to program =nul Asert failedtocare.Module
<dxdy>
mkay, tried again, as long as I let mechjeb do its autostaging thing it works perfectly well, so that did help indeed
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<lamont>
yeah i just got excited and looked at his kode and then remembered that kOS makes my eyes kinda bleed…
<lamont>
mechjeb autostaging ‘fixing’ PEG is super weird
<soundnfury>
Pap: drain the KSC swamp :P
<dxdy>
I don't doubt that it's weird, but it may just have been a fluke that it didn't work the one time I tried it without, so I wouldn't put too much into it
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: the GPS constellation does the following requirement: "GeoComSatNetwork" ...
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
*have
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I just noticed after launching comsat after comsat, as per your instruction. :p
<Pap>
That makes sense, need to be able to communicate :) I didn't remember that we added that (was done after the fact)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
stop rubbing your fists like the super-villain that you are :D
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<NathanKell|WORK>
I should mention, Pap, Maxsimal the upside is that solids are finally viable \o/
<Pap>
\o/
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: If you're starting a new career (you are right, cuz of KRASH?) then I suggest starting with launch costs on
<Pap>
I will wait until we are ready to go with it before starting
<blowfish>
because liquids increase launch costs so much more?
<Pap>
Yes, I don't know what I did to my save, but it started trating itself as a Scenario and I couldn't save. Looked at the log and KRASH had spit out about 30 minutes of NULL REFS that looked like they were in response to me using HyperEdit to put a craft into the Equator
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: We are ready to go :P
<NathanKell|WORK>
That's why I stayed up past my bedtime, to get something testable
<NathanKell|WORK>
What happened I think is that KRASH got stuck 'on'
<NathanKell|WORK>
so the game thought it was in a sim, so you couldn't save.
<Pap>
Awesome! Is it on the Developmental build?
<Pap>
ahhhh
<NathanKell|WORK>
Master. Just pick the RP0LC config instead of the RP0 config in KCT, and set your fund gain and loss to 5x what you normally would
<NathanKell|WORK>
(or maybe only 4x, dunno--needs tuning)
<NathanKell|WORK>
We also, as I mentioned above, need to tune prices a bit
<NathanKell|WORK>
but not so much that you can't start playing with this and see
<NathanKell|WORK>
NOTE: Rollouts are no longer fast.
<NathanKell|WORK>
The split is about 2/3 integration, 1/3 rollout.
<Pap>
Woah, this will make having multiple launch sites important now I think.Nice.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah except I think we need to change the rollout/recondiitioning split to something like 75/25 instead of 50/50
<github>
RP-0/master 84e5845 NathanKell: Fix reconditioning split, add partvalue mult
<NathanKell|WORK>
there
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell|WORK: how did your test of Kerbal Konstructs / Real KSC go?
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell|Pap: Good, that was a big part of what inspired this!
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Hypergolic_Skunk: The pads are there but it seems some are a bit hid by the terrain. And I can't figure out how to launch from them rather than 'my' launchpad
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell|WORK: ah ok. if you're interested, I can quickly show you on the stream, when you have the time. both the launching-issue and the hid-by-terrain issues should be fixable
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Would you be willing to create a tutorial? I would love to use it as well, but haven't wanted to take the time to try and figure it out
<NathanKell|WORK>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I would *love* that!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: I can try. mind you, i have no experience in video-editing, so it's gonna be rough :p
<NathanKell|WORK>
text is fine in that case, or text with screenshots?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
that I can do
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Don't edit it. Do it like NK did for his RP-0 Tutorial
<Pap>
Or text with screenshots works well for me!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ok, I'll get on it
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<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I will give you a present in a little bit
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
*shudders*
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: btw your videos are just about the only thing on YT that I watch at >1x speed.
<soundnfury>
Hypergolic_Skunk: surprise Anschluß!
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D
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<Bornholio>
soundnfury thats a reasonable expectation for a suprise.
<soundnfury>
hmm, this reminds me. Why is there no ECM between the small docking port and the Gemini Rendezvous and Recovery section?
<soundnfury>
the fact that both are 50kſ to unlock leads me to suspect there should be
<Rokker>
god this plane is ugly
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
good morning ProjectThoth :)
<ProjectThoth>
o/ Hypergolic_Skunk
<ProjectThoth>
How'd it go?
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: not a bad idea. But Gemini's doesn't even transfer propellant, or shouldn't
<soundnfury>
true, true
<soundnfury>
which makes it all the more outrageous to have to pay 50k for it when you've already unlocked the other :P
* soundnfury
just watching you build your own Gemini SM
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Btw, in the github app, how come I can see this new developmental branch in the list of branchs from my fork of the repository?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ProjectThoth: I did not try the 'Anti-Atlas' thing :p just ramping up S1 to 3+ km/s did the trick
<ProjectThoth>
Woohoo! :D
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Well, my present might not be delivered. Where is the working version of Adjustable Landing Gear?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: Kerbal Foundries
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
not sure which version exactly though
<soundnfury>
and thinking "boy, I bet he suffers horrendous boiloff on his fuel-cell cryotanks"
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
but yeah, that *would* be a nice present, for them to be early on in the tree :p
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: i was looking at the map and thinking damn thats a lot of runways
<Rokker>
but then i thought about it more, damn thats not a lot of runways
<soundnfury>
(mainly because that's what happened to me last time I built my own SM with fuel cells)
<Pap>
Ah it is a Shadowmage mod, I sign off on it!
<Pap>
For those of you that know things...I have the option to get a BA in Computer Science, or a BS in Computer Science. The only difference in the cirriculum is that there are 2 additional math classes with the BS, any good reason to get the BS instead?
<soundnfury>
Pap: yes, maths is good for you
<Sarbian>
^^^^
<Sarbian>
Math is the difference between "code that amazing bank UI" and "code"
<soundnfury>
(then again, I would say that — I read Mathematics)
<Pap>
If it is the difference between graduating a semester early, still worth it, or something I can learn later in life?
<Sarbian>
It depends on your personality but "learning later in life" and "math" never clicked mush for me (even if I learned or returned to some math with KSP)
<Sarbian>
s/mush/much/
<Qboid>
Sarbian meant to say: It depends on your personality but "learning later in life" and "math" never clicked much for me (even if I learned or returned to some math with KSP)
<Pap>
Well, I'm 34, so this is later in life already
<soundnfury>
Pap: it's not about knowing X piece of mathematics
<soundnfury>
it's about thinking like a mathmo
<soundnfury>
unlock your inner aspie :)
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<Sarbian>
If you take the time to go back to school I would advise to do the extra if you can afford it. It will brings some tools and knowledge that may make you stand out a bit more in the sea of coders.
<ProjectThoth>
Maths make me sad.
<Pap>
I appreciate the inpuit, thank you
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<lamont>
what are the 2 extra math classes Pap?
<Bornholio>
my favorite programmer has a PhD in Chemistry :P take the math...
<Pap>
Applied Calculus and Linear Algebra
<lamont>
yes and yes
<Bornholio>
hard math and math you should have for comp scie no mater what
<SlainteMaith>
Did you get the link I sent earlier, lamont?
<lamont>
applied calc will help you with KSP if nothing else, and linear algebra is math you do really want for CS and may very well come up
<lamont>
i don’t think so…
<Pap>
Thank you
<SlainteMaith>
Someone else is also working on PEGAS for KoS.
<lamont>
oh yeah
<lamont>
and he just did a release
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: The tech industry is less degree-focused than many
<NathanKell|WORK>
That said, a BS will still look better on paper than a BA I would say, it's just a question of how much the paper matters
<NathanKell|WORK>
I did the BA because I thought I was doing a philosophy PhD.
<xShadowx>
dont you love games that dont do math, and let you move N+E at double speed rather than NE?
<lamont>
yeah he was yapping on NKs stream back when it first started about PEG/UPFG and that is what prompted me down the PEG/MechJeb road
<Pap>
Yeah, I want the knowledge I think more than the piece of paper in the long run
<lamont>
and it looks like he’s released a working kOS version today
<SlainteMaith>
Ah...
<SlainteMaith>
I've not messed with it yet.
<awang>
Does anyone here play with RealBattery?
<lamont>
and that is proper shuttle UPFG, so its better than the MJ stuff, plus should be 3d
<NathanKell|WORK>
Working in tech I'd have been better served by the BS, but it hasn't mattered in the end
<SlainteMaith>
It just seemed odd that you were working in parallel.
<NathanKell|WORK>
there's been PEG implementations in kOS for about a year
<lamont>
his code is actually nicely commented with the block numbers out of the UPFG document
<NathanKell|WORK>
linear algebra is *very* important IMO
<soundnfury>
oh hells yes
<SlainteMaith>
Anyway... I thought it was odd and wanted to make sure you were aware.
<soundnfury>
everything from hamming codes to 3d gubbins, it's all linear fricken' algebra
<lamont>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIuU0ZMOCVY is another PEG implementation for kOS (that implementation I think is more like what is currently in MechJeb, and not the shuttle code)
<NathanKell|WORK>
yes that was from Atlas
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
NathanKell|WORK: quick question regarding KCT: is it possible to have recovered planes not be vertical? have you heard about this?
<NathanKell|WORK>
edit them in the SPH, no?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yeah, I do that :)
<soundnfury>
Hypergolic_Skunk: recovered planes' orientation and position is always borken
<soundnfury>
afaik
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
just a convenience thing :p
<NathanKell|WORK>
ah then poke Le Magico?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah, my bad, I thought you were the mastermind behind it :)
<soundnfury>
KCT is one of the few things NK hasn't nomzed ;)
<xShadowx>
nah hes the mastermind behind make-ksp-not-a-cartoon
<awang>
Firespitter Core includes a .pdb in its download :(
<awang>
NathanKell vs LinuxGuruGamer, FIGHT
<xShadowx>
NK :P
<NathanKell|WORK>
awang: pdb is cool
<xShadowx>
LGG doesnt visit here, so he loses points
<NathanKell|WORK>
awang: means we can debug it
<NathanKell|WORK>
Unity needs the mdb too tho
<Pap>
DO I need all of Firespitter in my install, or just the core? It spits a lot of exceptions on load
<gazpachian>
pap, if you can live without WW1 style open cockpits
<NathanKell|WORK>
core, plus the resources and sounds folders
<Pap>
OK, thank you
<awang>
NathanKell|WORK: Is distributing debug builds a normal thing?
<NathanKell|WORK>
awang: sometimes
<NathanKell|WORK>
Unless you load Unity in dev mode, it won't run it in debug...
<NathanKell|WORK>
so it's fine
<awang>
Ah
<Sarbian>
LGG saves so many mods from death that distributing a PDB is not a major offence ;p
<NathanKell|WORK>
I distribute pdbs too :P
<awang>
:(
* Sarbian
waits for KSP pdbs
<awang>
Too used to the *nix system where debug info is in the binary itself
<Bornholio>
long wait
<awang>
How in the world does LGG find the time/energy to maintain all those mods
<Bornholio>
expended sanity, cthulhu style sane loss
* soundnfury
gives awang a DWARF. Also an ORC
<awang>
What was the command for adding things to Qboid's vocabulary again?
<Sarbian>
I am surprised he did not pop yet :)
<awang>
NathanKell|WORK: CKAN doesn't appear to install the Firespitter resources/sound folders. Is that normal?
<soundnfury>
awang: !acr -add? !wpn -add:wpn?
<awang>
!wpn -add:wpn DWARF
<Qboid>
awang: Weapon added!
<awang>
soundnfury: is !acr new?
<awang>
Acronym?
<soundnfury>
DWARF?
<awang>
Debug info?
<soundnfury>
!acr -add:DWARF Debugging With Attributed Record Formats [backronym]
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<Qboid>
soundnfury: [DWARF] => Debugging With Attributed Record Formats [backronym]
<soundnfury>
DWARF?
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
Forgot about that
<soundnfury>
!acr -add:ORC Oops Rewind Capability
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<NathanKell|WORK>
awang: hmm. Then the SXT props won't work right
<awang>
NathanKell|WORK: Firespitter-Core appears to just be the .dll and .mdb/pdb
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<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: trick for getting high-inclination lunar orbits (whence polar landing sites): instead of braking into circular, just brake into a highly-elliptical orbit. Then plane change at aposelene.
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<Pap>
hUH, haven't updated mine in 3 years, maybe the interface has been improved :)
<Maxsimal>
Hrmm - do you think you could give me permission to push to the development branch?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
jesus. just finished the script for my KK/Real-KSC video. so glad I didn't just wing it :D
<Maxsimal>
Hypergolic: I'm interested in seeing that
<NathanKell|WORK>
awang: As I recall, RealBattery isn't.
<Pap>
Maxsimal: I cannot give you that power, has to come from NK
<NathanKell|WORK>
Bornholio: you don't have push access so you needed to make a fork anyway.
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: That's what I did, made a fork - it's just weird I can't see the development branch from my fork
<Pap>
Maxsimal: Bornholio It gets touchy having a ton of people with push access I think
<Maxsimal>
Pap: No worries.
<Bornholio>
no i don't want push :P just need to make sure i do my changes away from polutting main
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: because the branch was added to upstream after you forked
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: so you need to fetch upstream (rather than your remote)
<NathanKell|WORK>
and then make a local branch from the upstream branch
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: No clue how to do all that. Git is so much more confusing that p4.
<Maxsimal>
*than
<NathanKell|WORK>
I disagree soooooo much
<Sarbian>
^^^^^^
<NathanKell|WORK>
I'd dearly love to be using git right now instead of p4
<Maxsimal>
Heh, well, guess you're used to this interface, and that's understandable.
<Sarbian>
Get a proper client
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: do you have the KSP-RO git as a remote?
<NathanKell|WORK>
do a git remote -v
<Maxsimal>
I'm using the desktop client for git - is there a better one?
<NathanKell|WORK>
the desktop client has a 'git shell' button
<NathanKell|WORK>
use that
<Pap>
Maxsimal: You right click on the Repository name in order to get to the Git Shell
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Rightclicking on the current repistory did nothing.
<Pap>
Damn, sorry Maxsimal, I am telling you how to do it in my version. I should really upgrade if I am going to offer help. I am guessing it will be in one of the dropdowns
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Yeah the only shell command opens a cmd prompt and also gives me a popup warning that ti can't find git installed on my system
<Maxsimal>
Pap: So I guess it's complaining I only have the desktop app installed, and no environment variables to be able to run it from cmd.
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<Pap>
Ohhh, I think that "may" have been an option when you installed originally
<Maxsimal>
I mean, I can understand that git is -nux orginated and thus more oriented toward people used to running things from Bash... just not my scene :P
<NathanKell|WORK>
the desktop app is just a frontend for command line git anyway
<NathanKell|WORK>
so you do have it installed somewhere
<NathanKell|WORK>
(AIUI)
B787_Work is now known as B787_300
<Sarbian>
(sourceTree / GitKraken for GUI). I won't recommend one since they all have their flaws
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: The SSME does not have TF configs and I got a request for them. I was going to make them, but had a question about how TF works. It doesn't "know" that an engine has been flown before correct? Say I launch a Shuttle and then recover it with KCT. Will TF remember that that RS-25 already burned for 300 seconds?
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell|Pap: Ok getting late for me anyway - but I guess there are a lot of other Git frontends that I can try out, might just switch to one of those because tbh this Desktop App doesn't really seem to only be built with branches from a main repository in mind, it doesn't seem like it supports the full git workflow very well.
<Maxsimal>
Strike doesn't from that :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
do you guys have any recommendations for free video editors that let me cut and combine several smaller clips? :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
I like SourceTree
<NathanKell|WORK>
Heard good things about GitKraken too
<Sarbian>
I liked SourceTree before their UI designer killed the UI
<NathanKell|WORK>
^
<NathanKell|WORK>
That's why I'm using that old janky version you gave me <3
<Sarbian>
GitKraken is good when it does not freeze or try to get you to buy the premium version. When I don't need GIT LFS it s my current go to client
<Sarbian>
I still have the exe, I should reinstall that version
<Sarbian>
I need to test Tower, I heard good things about it. but it s paid only...
<Sarbian>
At least it is pay once, and not the stupid "give us a lot of money EACH MONTH for our nice but not perfect GitKraken" (for commercial use)
<Maxsimal>
Sarbian: Ugh. Gitkraken is the most recommended one.
<Maxsimal>
Oh well, at least I know it's this desktop app being kinda junk, and not completely my own stupidity.
<Sarbian>
Maxsimal: do you use it ? Never had it freeze/lock on some operation ?
<Sarbian>
err, opps. Of course you did not ;p
<Maxsimal>
Sarbian: No, haven't tried it, now looking for which one I should DL
<Sarbian>
Get this one. I doubt you need git LFS and it works fine nowadays
<Sarbian>
They have a great client but they are terrible at marketing and communication.
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<Maxsimal>
Sarbian: Ok, will do.
<Sarbian>
And on that note I ll go to sleep :)
<Starwaster>
lamont, MJ *IS* managing jet throttles to avoid jet flameout. I think the reason it wasn't before is that something had broken somewhere and your PEG branch wasn't up to date but you rebased recently so that seems to have fixed that
<Starwaster>
however, it is closing intakes when it shouldn't be... maybe some boolean flipped somewhere that shouldn't be
<Maxsimal>
Yeah I'm off to sleep shortly too. Night all.
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<awang>
Does RO still require EngineIgnitor to be installed?
<NathanKell|WORK>
no
<NathanKell|WORK>
requires it not be
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
ok
<awang>
So the RO_EngineIgnitor.cfg in the RO GameData/ isn't for EngineIgnitor
<awang>
?
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<blowfish>
ignitions are part of RF
<blowfish>
that file might not do anything anymore
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<awang>
Does RO/RP-0 fix the infinite EVA fuel exploit?
<lamont>
Starwaster: odd, that might have been Sarbian’s recent fixes to voodoo i didn’t grok
<Starwaster>
NathanKell|WORK does ModuleResourceIntake scale the intake such that area needs to be scaled back? (info reports area as area * 100 m2) - if so where is that happening? I can't see where; my brain is jello right now due to lack of sleep
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<Starwaster>
hmmm maybe because atmDensity is on a different scale than the resource density?
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<Starwaster>
lamont did you do anything about corrective steering in your branch?
<lamont>
no, have not addressed it yet at all
<NathanKell|WORK>
for backwards compatibility we kept the old areas (which were broadly given in 1/100ths of square meters >.> )
<NathanKell|WORK>
Starwaster: ^
<NathanKell|WORK>
So give the intake area in sq meters and then divide by 100 and put that in the cfg
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell|WORK: so in dm^2?
<NathanKell|WORK>
yes
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<egg|zzz|egg>
fun
<NathanKell|WORK>
awang: what `RO_EngineIgnitor.cfg` file?