<SlainteMaith>
Sorry to interrupt--I think this is a common goof. So, in fiddling with the Atlas (Mercury) rocket, I've got two LR-89 NA-5 boosters, and the LR 105 NA-5. I've only got 5575 dv on it. The capsule has been rated for 24 hours of consumables. What am I missing? (Even knowing there's a dv boost at staging doesn't seem like there's enough)
<Bornholio>
when you stage off the 1/2stage decoupler at 2:30 you will jump back up to 5000~
<SlainteMaith>
Eeeehhh.. I didn't. I staged down to like 2000. I'll try again.
<Bornholio>
did you use the motor with the extra 11000 kerosene?
<SlainteMaith>
I only have one motor. I -did- forget that has an included fuel tank. I'll check it presently.
<SlainteMaith>
The one central motor, that is.
<SlainteMaith>
Ah. Yep. There it was. Full of kerosene and nothing else.
<SlainteMaith>
7848 dv now for the whole rocket--which seems much more sane.
<Bornholio>
yup that sounds right now
<SlainteMaith>
Thanks for the reminder--I would have NEVER thought to look there.
<Dasm>
@Bornholio its not doing it
<Bornholio>
k i only got the repeat doing the one way, by selecting the interplanetary upper config first
<Bornholio>
and only on a fresh part
<SlainteMaith>
lamont: Your PEG ascent program for MJ is amazing.
<SlainteMaith>
I'll ask in here, since I've mentioned it on FaceTubes and been scoffed at or misunderstood: What sort of feasibility is there for an RCS 'pulse' mode?
<Bornholio>
there is rcs balancing in throttle controlled avionics mod
<Bornholio>
otherwise its the rcs control athourity that allows it to be throttled (effectively PWM)
<SlainteMaith>
Is that the same thing? i.e., nudge the stick one way for however long and still get one 'pulse?'
<SlainteMaith>
Then cancel out the input using the opposite? The draw of it is the imprecision the pilot needs. =)
<Bornholio>
not sure for controllers, I use keyboard only so i get only fix power thrust
<SlainteMaith>
Right, but the same rules apply. You tap a key to pitch up. The way KSP handles it, if you tap to pitch down to null the movement, unless you're VERY precise in your timing, you have unwanted pitch rate.
<SlainteMaith>
My suggestion is to have the thrusters only use a specific amount of fuel per 'puff.'
<SlainteMaith>
In this way, assuming the RCS thrusters are placed in a sane fashion, they -should- cancel each other out--even if the actual movement rates are different for the axes.
<SlainteMaith>
Opposite inputs.
<SlainteMaith>
That is.
<Bornholio>
maybe smart parts has something that does that or activates for duration at least
<SlainteMaith>
You can see the usefulness, though? Especially with docking ops and what not. (I don't think it'd work well in translation, mode, mind you)
<SlainteMaith>
Extra comma. Grr.
<Bornholio>
TCA is the most control available that i know of. I generally fine tune my RCS balance in VAB and using Kill rot SmartASS handles the rest
<SlainteMaith>
I find SmartASS can get... waggy.
<Bornholio>
with Capslock on i don't have that problem as long as RCS is actually balanced
<SlainteMaith>
I'm probably less careful than most about that.
<Bornholio>
RCS build aid is the best. once i started using that religiously i never had docking problems
<Bornholio>
well until RO and accidentally using RCS with no fuel type for it :/
<SlainteMaith>
Yeah. That's a thing.
<SlainteMaith>
If someone would code an RO 'sanity' checklist that'd be great. Thanks.
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<soundnfury>
Dasm: I find the proc avi lags if you drag the size sliders too low (so util is at 200% and it refuses to shrink any further)
<soundnfury>
I think that's causing it to reprocess on every update
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<Dasm>
Hmm, can't be sure, I couldn't re-create the problem
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<SlainteMaith>
Hrm. Then I burnt up on reentry. I was operating under the assumption that the Mercury Re-Entry Module could, in fact, reenter without an additional heat shield. ...which suggests my reentry trajectory bit the big one. Which begs questions like: What was my orbit -supposed- to be? And: What pitch do I need to assume to divert the extra thrust that's causing me to come in too steep?
<SlainteMaith>
And, of course, how the -hell- could I have determined that before, you know, killing a kerbal?
<Bornholio>
i use 64km for PE on a mercury, reduced G-loading, the pod wil take a 0km pe fine thermally from LEO
<Bornholio>
what ap did you come in from?
<SlainteMaith>
Mine was ...uh. Below that. I'm guessing I should yaw normal/anti normal to waste the extra dv from the retros?
<soundnfury>
SlainteMaith: the usual way is to look up what was done IRL. IIRC Mercury used a -ve Pe reentry
<SlainteMaith>
I was at 185 circular -/+ 1km. (Lamont's ap rocks)
<soundnfury>
and also IIRC lower Pe means lower total heat load (though higher peak heating)
<Bornholio>
should have been hard to burn up. which build are you running
<soundnfury>
too high Pe: run out of ablator. too low Pe: astronaut turned to mush by g-forces
<SlainteMaith>
I had plenty of ablator.
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<SlainteMaith>
Build. Uh. Of RO? 'release.'
<SlainteMaith>
Well. latest release.
<soundnfury>
yeah SlainteMaith that sounds like you've hit a bug or misconfiguration. I've never had a Mercury burn up, certainly not from 185km.
<soundnfury>
o/ rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
o/
<soundnfury>
how's things?
<SlainteMaith>
But: When I try again, should I turn normal or anti normal to squander off the remaining retro burn? (Seeing as I cannot shut it down)
<SlainteMaith>
(Obviously it doesn't matter which one)
<rsparkyc>
soundnfury: super busy now that i'm back to Georgia
<rsparkyc>
getting back to work, plus we're in the processing of buying a new house
<rsparkyc>
which means RO has taken a back burner :(
<soundnfury>
:( indeed
<rsparkyc>
hopefully after the move things should settle down
<rsparkyc>
we close the 25th
<soundnfury>
good luck with your domicile acquisition endeavours
<rsparkyc>
haha, thx
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<Bornholio>
slainth there is some kiind of bug that NK had to fix you may want to ugrade to current master instead of release
<Ramh5>
Afternoon all, I am trying to find a function that MJ might not have for a while. Is it possible to set a node to a speficic angle to prograde for an interplanetary transfer?
<Bornholio>
slaintemaith ^
<SlainteMaith>
Thanks, Bornholio!
NathanKell|AWAY is now known as NathanKell
<Ramh5>
I am using the Transfer window planner mode to calculate the launch window, but when I use MJ transfer to another planet with option "as soon as possible", it never works well
<NathanKell>
o/
<NathanKell>
what Bornholio?
<Dasm>
o/
<Bornholio>
SM was having amercury burn up
<SlainteMaith>
I'm going to try to duplicate it.
<SlainteMaith>
I -think- I might have been coming in too steeply. But...
<NathanKell>
I thought I released after that
<SlainteMaith>
I know I'm using an old version.
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<NathanKell>
ah
<Dasm>
I can't use mechjeb.. I tried and mechjeb couldn't even orbit my Atlas
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith just to verify, find GameData\RealismOverhaul\RO_Physics.cfg
<NathanKell>
open it, find @machConvectionFactor = [something]
<NathanKell>
tell me what the something is. It should be 1.0.5
<NathanKell>
err, 1.05
<NathanKell>
if it's 1.72, that's your problem
<NathanKell>
lower it to 1.05 then and things should be OK (although do make sure you deorbit to a low enough Pe)
<SlainteMaith>
will do.
<NathanKell>
if you're ingame, you can fix it ingame
<NathanKell>
no need to restart KSP
<SlainteMaith>
Yep. 1.72
<SlainteMaith>
And fixed. Thank, sir!
<SlainteMaith>
Well. Fix applied.
<NathanKell>
Ok, now, also open GameData/ModuleManager.Physics
<NathanKell>
fix it there
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith: then ingame, hit Alt-F12, go to Physics, and click 'load'
<NathanKell>
that should apply the change
<NathanKell>
verify by going to Physics->Thermo, and checking convection factor. Make sure it's 1.05. If it's not, drag it until it's about 1.0.
<NathanKell>
For Mercury reentries, you want as low a Pe as you can get
<NathanKell>
64km is dangerously high IMO, Bornholio
<NathanKell>
IIRC the canonical reentry orbit was something like 180 x -250
<NathanKell>
depends on where you fire the retros
<NathanKell>
(I flew Friendship 7's ascent to the second to verify thermal loads on reentry :) )
<NathanKell>
ascent and orbit*
<NathanKell>
A nominal Mercury orbit was something like 150x280, and retros were fired at Pe, retrograde but with a -35 pitch angle.
<NathanKell>
could also be fired nearer Ap, and then you get something like 300x-300
<NathanKell>
Not at all related to this, but you'll thank me :D
<acharles>
How many of you RO devs use *nix?
<NathanKell>
I sure as heck don't
<NathanKell>
Don't think Pap does; I don't know about SirKeplan and PhineasFreak. leudaimon does. rsparkyc uses a Mac so that's halfway to nixland.
<NathanKell>
rest are Windows AFAIK.
<rsparkyc>
though i do my dev on a windows VM
<rsparkyc>
(well, RO dev that it, the rest is java)
<SlainteMaith>
...catching up still. =)
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc, good to see you alive :)
<NathanKell>
Best wishes continue
<rsparkyc>
thanks! yep, still around
<rsparkyc>
though we're closing on our new house the 25th
<rsparkyc>
my availability is still a bit sporadic until everything settles down
<NathanKell>
busy times!
<rsparkyc>
yeah, we got back from NY Wednesday, my brother was buried there
<rsparkyc>
now getting back to the groove of work and house moving
<SlainteMaith>
So how do I use all those nifty gnu programs in my shell? They're not in my path, I don't think. And I forget how to put them there. I presume we're using a cmd window.
<SlainteMaith>
-shell +path
<NathanKell>
install it, then edit your path to include the bin folder
<NathanKell>
Which the install should have done
<NathanKell>
but maybe it failed
<NathanKell>
Actually, wait
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<NathanKell>
what text editor do you have? Notepad++ ?
<NathanKell>
Do 'find in files' through that, since you can restrict to only *.cfg
<SlainteMaith>
I do!
<NathanKell>
Ctrl-Shf-F, give it your GameData path, set filter to *.cfg, etc
<NathanKell>
that's better than grep for this
<NathanKell>
I just grep because it's reflexive :D
<SlainteMaith>
Heh.
<SlainteMaith>
Still @PHYSICSGLOBALS. I had to scroll back that's how far I'm behind. =)
<lamont>
yeah PEG needs a “panic” button to find any stable orbit it can reach
<SlainteMaith>
0 hits.
<Bornholio>
%PhysicsGlobals could also edit it
<SlainteMaith>
lamont It's still godsdamned useful for RO.
<lamont>
i wasn’t paying attention and didn’t stage fairings, and mechjeb won’t autostage it and it got stuck and couldn’t active the upper stage, and then had to go hunting around for an orbit it could reach
<Dasm>
Bornholio: Hey, that problem just happened again
<lamont>
see also: agathorn
<taniwha>
poor guy
<Bornholio>
dasm are you configuring the proc avionics?
<lamont>
whoah
<lamont>
lol, mechjeb just autostaged my paylod off and shot it into orbit, that was cool
<Dasm>
Bornholio: False alarm, it was an input lock
<Bornholio>
:P what is input locking you in VAB?
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<SlainteMaith>
NathanKell 0 hits.
<Dasm>
Bornholio: It was uhmm.. a toolbar something
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith: Check the top line of GameData\RO\RO_Physics
<SlainteMaith>
So now the question is: Why The Hell Wouldn't It Find That? I had subdirs selected.
<NathanKell>
Try finding that exact line
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith: Make sure Match Whole Words is unselected
<acharles>
NathanKell: What’s are we going to do tonight, Brain? :P
<SlainteMaith>
Oh. Duh. Did you know that wildcards are important in file search operations?
<SlainteMaith>
Guessing I need to open/search/correct those?
<Dasm>
What is IRFNA?
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith: That looks sane
<NathanKell>
huh
<NathanKell>
Dasm: Inhibited red fuming nitric acid
<SlainteMaith>
Okay, good.
<Dasm>
NathanKell: What is the II for?
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith: Now do a search for ModuleManager*.dll in GameData and subfolders
<SlainteMaith>
Alrighty!
<NathanKell>
Dasm: There were multiple US formulations
<NathanKell>
we have III and IV
<Dasm>
Oh!
<NathanKell>
Dasm: The Soviet formulations are the AK ones
<NathanKell>
AK27 etc
<SlainteMaith>
2.7.5 & 2.7.6 both live there.
<NathanKell>
ah. Kill 2.7.5
<NathanKell>
there must be only one (tm)
<NathanKell>
Use a claymore, probably.
SirKeplan is now known as SirKeplanzzz
<SlainteMaith>
...Mine or sword?
<SlainteMaith>
(Also, I can do bupkis with it because the program is still loaded)
<NathanKell>
I was thinking Highlander style, but then the mine would probably serve better
<SlainteMaith>
Temps were good this time.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vQ1Yv
<github>
RealismOverhaul/pap1723-ROupdates 2e7f68f NathanKell: KR-7: Weird, according to my calcs this should reach 75Gm not 37.
<Pap>
Just watched Braveheart again today, so Highlander style it is
<SlainteMaith>
Early claymore. *Nods sagely* I also like the later style basket-hilt you see in Rob Roy.
<SlainteMaith>
Is the Mercury Nose Fairing meant to detach?
<Pap>
<---- prefrs the Claymores from Vietnam era movies
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith: Yes
<NathanKell>
That covers the parachute
<NathanKell>
detach it then deploy the chute
<acharles>
What’s G1?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Sheet complete, let's balance
<NathanKell>
acharles: In what context?
<acharles>
The sheet?
<NathanKell>
I don't see any G1...?
<acharles>
That row, column
<NathanKell>
ah
<NathanKell>
the range of a DSN
<SlainteMaith>
NathanKell: You've played portal, no? You know the 'bad turrets' that keep clicking when they're supposed to fire? My fairing is doing that. Makes the eject noise and emits smoke, but never actually detaches.
<Pap>
ok NathanKell
<SlainteMaith>
Repeatedly.
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith: Sounds like an NRE
<SlainteMaith>
(Once per click, that is)
<NathanKell>
Alt-F12, look in console, see if any errors
<acharles>
Why are dishes 1000 and omni’s 100?
<NathanKell>
cuz I wrote it like that
<NathanKell>
Don't recall exactly my logic at the time
<SlainteMaith>
NathanKell: Yep. There's an Exception Error. But because <reasons> I cannot read what else it says.
<NathanKell>
I think it was probably to make up for not being able to combine dishes
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith: open KSP.log in your KSP folder
<NathanKell>
Ok I just made it editable. Pap can you put in the tech nodes for them?
<NathanKell>
SlainteMaith: Ah, they never fixed that :(
<NathanKell>
that's an RT bug I think
<Pap>
Current ones NathanKell?
<NathanKell>
It doesn't catch exceptions right
<NathanKell>
Ah, nope, it's a straight-up error on there end I think :(
<NathanKell>
Pap: Yeah, or desired, I don't care. Just something to play with
<NathanKell>
We know we need like 250Gm for Venus and 400Gm for Mars
<acharles>
The blue ones are the new ones in 1.2?
<SlainteMaith>
Okay. Landed, program closed, old .dll murdered.
<NathanKell>
acharles: Green is VSR, gray is SXT, clear is stock, blue is RemoteTech
<acharles>
ah
<acharles>
Is that the standard remote tech calculation? Or does RO change it?
<NathanKell>
it's the standard RemoteTech root model, but we have super-powerful groundstations
<NathanKell>
Pap: I'd swap the tech nodes of HG-5 and RA-2.
<NathanKell>
Pap: Or maybe even put RA-2 in the same node as HG-55 tbh. It's just a Mars-class version of the HG-55.
<SlainteMaith>
Off for the night. Thanks for your help, all. As I understand how these mods work together, I hope to find more interesting bugs. =)
<Pap>
ok NathanKell
<NathanKell>
Whatcha think? Should you have to go up to Advandced Comms to get oppo Mars missions?
<NathanKell>
or should they unlock from the start, and the difference is just you pay extra mass?
<Pap>
No, I think it should be possible before 1966
<NathanKell>
uh also for the RA-2 and 88-88 you show both in the same node but different years...
<NathanKell>
Ok, then I'd say chuck RA-2 in interplanetary
<Pap>
Yeah, the 88-88 was listed as a Voyager style antenna in the description, so when I was going through them, it got lumped in with the year of the mission, just happens to be the same node
<NathanKell>
ah gotcha
<NathanKell>
what do we do about KR-7? Should it get moved back to Lunar or left as-is?
<NathanKell>
It's a bit under-powered for the node it's in
<Bornholio>
20 days life support {Check} heading to the moon {Check} gemini pod {Check}
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<NathanKell>
!tell SlainteMaith* have a good one! (Sorry I missed you logging off)
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
NathanKell: It is underpowered for that node, but overpowered for the previous node, you can send some data back REAL fast using a KR-7, is the tradeoff that it is heavy / expensive compared to a C-16, so if the player wants it, have it?
<NathanKell>
Fair deal
<NathanKell>
Also I thought HG-5 was staying in the 67 node?
<NathanKell>
Wait what the heck is the point of the DTS-M1 now?
<NathanKell>
It can reach what, Mercury? Venus conjunction but not oppo?
<Pap>
I have no idea where it fits in
<Pap>
Why is it so nerfed?
<NathanKell>
15d dish angle, too
<NathanKell>
it's like it's trying to be halfway between KR-7 and regular
<NathanKell>
high data rate tho
<Bornholio>
angles?
<Pap>
I need to figure out which antennas these are...I have only 2 more (one of these is deprecated by RT), but they are called Voyager Antenna and Pioneer 10/11 Class Antenna
<Bornholio>
i would talk about how many db needed for each decade adn how we can communicate into background noise now but my comment is that useless coms should be used as better coms later upgraded by technology/computers if we have no scaling tech improvements
<NathanKell>
Pap: IIRC the KR-14 is the Pioneer antenna
<Pap>
oik, are you sure your numbers are correct then for range?
<NathanKell>
Yes.
<NathanKell>
Pioneer 10/11 is the KR-14. Voyager is the CommTech 1
<taniwha>
btw, did RT's root-mode ever get updated to remove that offset?
<NathanKell>
taniwha: No.
<NathanKell>
Not to my knowledge
<taniwha>
it probably should
<NathanKell>
Pap: I checked my model against what the cfgs say and they match (except for KR-7) so...
<taniwha>
this is #RO, after all ;)
<NathanKell>
yeah
<taniwha>
I still remember doing the math to show that root-mode (without offset) is actually correct
<NathanKell>
I remember! :)
<NathanKell>
That's something I lucked into tbh
<taniwha>
oh, wild guess for RT?
<NathanKell>
I was playing with excel sheets to try to come up with a decent (gamey, but realer) range model
<NathanKell>
and came up with that
<NathanKell>
yep :)
<taniwha>
ok, not so wild
<NathanKell>
Yeah, I wrote root model as a mod for RT, along with multiple omni support and path distance
<NathanKell>
(err, current vs max distance on your current link)
<NathanKell>
2 out of 3 survived for RT2.
<NathanKell>
although I had to ruin them with linq in order for my PR to get merged. Gah.
<acharles>
The formula results in the DSN’s extra range only helping once the antenna on the craft is over 114,228,342
<acharles>
math is cool
<NathanKell>
Pap: ok, so I would suggest putting HG-5 in the advancedComms node along with DTS-M1, and rebalancing DTS-M1 to ~250Gm range so they become Mars and Venus dishes respectively in that node. Maybe upping HG-5's range slightly to ensure constant contact at Mars.
<lamont>
that should fix the logspam but hotstaging still messes up PEG staging
<NathanKell>
lamont: 'backs out the Isp patch' ?
<lamont>
yeah i just unincluded that one rather than think about fixing it
<NathanKell>
nooooo
<NathanKell>
that's worse! :(
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<lamont>
so NK: hotstaging will still fail to engage PEG if you try it — it’ll lose track of your stages and you’ll have to hit “reinit stage analysis"
<lamont>
it shoud not logspam when it does that, though, and should not prevent staging and blow up quite as spectacularly, it’ll just quietly NaN in the GUI until you hit the button
<lamont>
thinking about ways to fix that...
<NathanKell>
:)
<NathanKell>
hotstaging is problematic
<Pap>
NK, i did not increase the values of the DTS-M1 or HG-5
<lamont>
(in some ways i’d prefer to teach myself calculus of variations (again) rather than try to sort out kerbal staging issues)
<regex>
Anyone able to provide a few baseline LV costs? Like Vanguard, Atlas, Gemini Titan, Saturn Ib and V, Vostok?
<lamont>
(also of course if it DOES logpsam lemme know, there could certain be more a remaining logspam bug or two, but i fixed several glaringly obvious issues….)
<NathanKell>
Pap: Yup! Best to go through PhineasFreak there :)
<lamont>
also
<lamont>
oh yeah
<NathanKell>
I made an issue on the RO repo, Pap
<lamont>
most of the settings stick to the ship now, not global
<NathanKell>
regex: Can only answer US ones.
<lamont>
and Num Stages has a number in parens next to it which is the internal PEG staging which counts down and leaves your setting alone
<NathanKell>
We aim for the flyaway cost to be right (but it's not always...), and we don't do launch costs yet.
<Dasm>
Any idea why my engines wouldn't be activating through staging?
<NathanKell>
development is also not exact.
<NathanKell>
regex: Note 2006 dollars there not 1965.
<Dasm>
Nevermind
<lamont>
i’m thinking there probably needs to be a num stages to initialize and a num stages which is active, so you could futz with the active one without it persisting at all — right now if you actually do futz with it, it will of course persist...
<lamont>
(or something like that — getting into some UX weeds there, but this should be less incredibly annoying)
<NathanKell>
lamont: Agree. But you needn't do that, just support presets! \o/
<NathanKell>
then you could load preset and it would fix numstages by itself
<taniwha>
yeah, presets are more useful
<NathanKell>
ok, firin' mah lazers.
<NathanKell>
Gonna do a quick stream before supper
<taniwha>
oh, and I've done some work with confignode/.cfg in PluginData
<taniwha>
(in my advanced input code)
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<taniwha>
config node is nice because it's very human-readable
<NathanKell|Twitch>
yeah, *#(@^* xml
<taniwha>
I've gotta go get some food
<leudaimon>
has anyone managed to run TOT on linux?
<taniwha>
?
<regex>
There's a Wine link in the thread OP
<regex>
No idea if it works, I never tried myself
<leudaimon>
I followed the steps on the OP, but I'm getting an error
<leudaimon>
but I have to admit I don't know what it means when it says i have to ensure cabextract is in my PATH
<lamont>
yeah MJ has shipt-type-stickiness though which is close to presets and i get it via editing a few fields — presets would be a pile more work, and i’ve got the math which would make the need for all of that go away… although this is why i want to get PEG merged into MJ so i don’t have to be the sole author of the UX and bugs going forwards…
<lamont>
*bugfixes
<lamont>
i should reserve the right to be the sole author of bugs…
<acharles>
Do you guys actually like the ocnfignode syntax?
<acharles>
And was there a precursor before KSP that used it?
<regex>
What is 1 fund in RP-0 supposed to be, 1000 USD in 1960?
<NathanKell|Twitch>
1965
<NathanKell|Twitch>
but yes
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<NathanKell|Twitch>
Pap the RA-2 isn't showing up
<Pap>
you broke it
<Pap>
should be in advancedComms
<NathanKell|Twitch>
I thought you were putting it in the same node as the HG-55
<Pap>
I am looking at the config
<Pap>
now I am confused, I'll jump on the stream
<NathanKell|Twitch>
So you can do oppo missions as early as conjunction
<NathanKell|Twitch>
advanced comms was where it already was
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ1cl
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree 37a95c8 pap1723: Moved RA-2 to Improved Comms
<lamont>
ah i may have a conceptually “simple” fix to hotstaging — don’t delete the PEG stage information if the mechjeb stage goes away, and then if the mechjeb stage comes back pick it right back up again… which will also likely fix edge conditions when users drag staging around in flight
<regex>
Monthly Funding mod might work but it would need some changes to the formula, scaling might work for a monthly budget but not for yearly.
<Pap>
regex: is there anything in place in that mod that would stop me, or discourage me from fast-forwarding 2 years just for the monthly payouts?
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<regex>
Pap, yes, because it's not cumulative.
<Pap>
Sorry, I don't understand regex, what does that mean? It doesn't give me say 20,000 per month?
<regex>
I'm looking for, literally, a budget mod. "Here's your money for the year".
<Pap>
ah, gotcha
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<xShadowx>
uh.......government funding, but think it fell into the hole of not updating
<regex>
It also tries to simulate a government which is nothing like what I want.
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Pap: Imma have a peek at the math then :)
<Pap>
I think the math makes sense, I just need to up the 2500 to more like 5000 or 7500
<Pap>
Maybe 10,000
<Dasm>
Pap: The SII stage is supposed to insert into orbit with .64TWR?
<Pap>
Ah, no Dasm, that might not be correct! Is your staging correct? Also, the delta-v numbers might not take into account the decouplers actually detaching the mass of the previous stage (happens with some decouplers)
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Dasm: staging is wrong
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Dasm: you have clamps detach, then you have 9 engines ignite
<NathanKell|Twitch>
what are the other 4 engines there?
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
Pap: For SunSynch, looks like 8300 to 13800
<Dasm>
NathanKell: For some reason the engine fairings are engines
<NathanKell>
engine fairings?
<NathanKell>
on the first stage?
<Dasm>
Yes
<NathanKell>
Pap: So double (7000 instead of 3500) sounds right
<NathanKell>
Dasm: What engine fairings on the first stage?
<Dasm>
FASA
<NathanKell>
describe?
<Dasm>
FASA F1 engine fairings
<NathanKell>
what do they look like and what do they do?
<Dasm>
They cover the engines on the outside of the fueltank
<NathanKell>
Pap: The GEO weather sat one has a base of 2500 which seems very low
<NathanKell>
Pap: for there, yeah, I'd just raise it to 12500
<Pap>
Perfect
<Pap>
Don't know why I had it so low there
<NathanKell>
Dasm: do you mean the boattails around the engines?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Copied from Advanced Weather?
<Pap>
Probably
<NathanKell>
Dasm: Those do not decouple to my knowledge.
<Dasm>
I know
<Dasm>
But they have an engine thing for staging and fueltanks
<NathanKell>
Dasm can you take a screenshot closer in?
<NathanKell>
also is KER in Atm or Vac mode? I don't use it so don't know
<Dasm>
ATM
<NathanKell>
that can't be right
<NathanKell>
oh wait
<NathanKell>
F-1As?
<Dasm>
Oh no, not atmo, there's a selector button
<Dasm>
I lack tech for F1A
<NathanKell>
Ah, remove the kerbals please
<NathanKell>
see what your mass is then
<NathanKell>
because right now you're 500t too heavy
<NathanKell>
liftoff mass should be ~2500t
<NathanKell>
and your liftoff TWR (atmo) should be ~1.18
<Starwaster>
are we talking about a dinner roll or what?
<Dasm>
Axis roll
<Starwaster>
!tell lamont, any idea why my rockets might get stuck doing unguided gravity turns after the pitch completes? Does it have trouble with certain rocket designs?
<Qboid>
Starwaster: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Starwaster>
dasm, did you check your trim?
<Dasm>
How do I reset trim?
<Starwaster>
alt-x
<Dasm>
That resets timewarp
<X>
We don't talk about him.
<taniwha>
Dasm: it also resets trim
<Dasm>
Well.. that didn't work
<Dasm>
It stops if I turn SAS on
<taniwha>
and if you turn sas off?
<Dasm>
It rolls
<taniwha>
ok, check FAR's assistants, make sure they're off
<Dasm>
OH!
<Dasm>
It was on
<Dasm>
Thanks
<taniwha>
that had me stumped for weeks 4 years ago
<Dasm>
:D Youdabest taniwha
<taniwha>
fortunately, back then, FAR didn't save those settings so save/load fixed it
<Pap>
Anyone know C++?
<taniwha>
Pap: who? ;)
<taniwha>
(yeah, some)
<taniwha>
not so good at STL, but C++ in general I know fairly well
NathanKell|NOMZ is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<NathanKell>
Pap: there's an error in repeat comsats now?
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ1BN
<Pap>
yes, something to do with the code you wrote to generate the orbits, CC doesn't like it and won't show the contract anymore
<NathanKell>
ok, trying with the cast back
<NathanKell>
sorry...
<Pap>
Doesn't bother me, I'm far from that far in any testing ;)
<lamont>
Starwaster: if it can’t make it to the exact Ap+Pe on the stage(s) you’ve given it then it will fail to solve it
<Qboid>
lamont: Starwaster left a message for you in #RO [11.07.2017 05:53:31]: "any idea why my rockets might get stuck doing unguided gravity turns after the pitch completes? Does it have trouble with certain rocket designs?"
<lamont>
And the problem is, for example, you can’t hit a 185x185 orbit with a single stage with a single stage (arbitrary low payload — you couldn’t deliver a single proton to that orbit on a single burn even though you have the delta-V in this gedankenrocket to do that)
<lamont>
your setting of “num_stages” could also be off
<lamont>
you can also go the other way and take ferram’s big pig with the 6xRL10 upper stage that has like 0.3 TWR and start removing RL10s. to hit 200x200 it already lofts it to an ApA of over 300km. if you go to 5xRL10 it’ll still work, but if you try to go lower like 185x185 it won’t find a solution. and i couldn’t get 4xRL10 to work, although it might work for 400x400 or something like that.
<lamont>
PEG won’t be able to handle stock because generally you have to do at least one coast phase before circularization.
<NathanKell>
unless you design things right :P
<NathanKell>
if you have to coast, you brought too much engine
<Starwaster>
it's not stock. It's not RSS either but it's 10xKerbol... orbital parameters are pretty close to earth
<taniwha>
NathanKell: try telling that to the stock crowd :/
<taniwha>
(I did)
<lamont>
yeah, but everyone playing stock likes a solid 1.8 TWR minimum
<lamont>
*SLT
<taniwha>
1.8? more like 5-10
<lamont>
hehehehe
<lamont>
so anyway either too much engine or too little engine will give PEG issues
<Starwaster>
not sure what you mean about the single stage... it's a 3 stage rocket (delta IV heavy - ish) and I know it can make that orbit
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<lamont>
are you using the latest N-stage PEG?
<Dasm>
My insertion stages have like.. a 1.5 TWR
<Dasm>
What is this PEG?
<taniwha>
Powered Explicit Guidance
<ferram4>
Powered Explicit Guidance
<lamont>
because it wasn’t until like peg build #11 or so that it did 3-stage PEG so putting “3” into “num_stages” would have been lolwutty
<NathanKell>
taniwha: I did so, on squadcast :P
<ferram4>
Simple closed-loop guidance to orbit.
<NathanKell>
"simple"
<taniwha>
NathanKell: doesn't count. they were listening only for feature leaks
<NathanKell>
Pap: I am somehow still failing to make it possible.
<NathanKell>
s/possible/parse/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: Pap: I am somehow still failing to make it parse.
<ferram4>
NathanKell, taniwha imagine if when the aero update happened Kerbin had gotten increased in size to compensate for the 1 km/s in losses. It would be less stupid. :P
<NathanKell>
I TRIED
<ferram4>
I understand. But other people had ideas.
<NathanKell>
2x, with slightly better mass fractions, was about perfect.
<lamont>
tantilizingly enough the IGM paper i’ve been reading was like “a coast phase could be introduced into the ascent by the simple addition of an added term into equations (foo) and (bar)” and i was like “BUT TELL ME WHAT THE TERMS ARE!”
<taniwha>
just the Isp changes caused an uproar
<NathanKell>
wouldn't have had to nerf the Isps.
<taniwha>
(though, surprisingly, VIspR was not very popular)
<NathanKell>
well, I woulda nerfed them and remassed things
<taniwha>
very few takers
<ferram4>
And so KSP somehow makes dealing with rocket aerodynamics harder than it needs to be. :D
<lamont>
ferram4: is PEG better on potato puter now?
<ferram4>
Yes.
<lamont>
cool
<lamont>
i can probably speed it up by like another order of magnitude as well
<ferram4>
I'm sure there is more opt that can be done, but it doesn't chug.
<ferram4>
Can you get it to tell why the solver isn't converging when it doesn't?
<lamont>
the whole thing was designed to run on hella spud puters in the 60s
<lamont>
probably not?
<taniwha>
go by source of NaN?
<taniwha>
(eg, x > 1 or < -1 for acos/asin
<taniwha>
)
<ferram4>
Or at least see what the pitch angles are trying to do. Say, to pitch up or down.
<taniwha>
(though hopefully you're using various tricks with atan or atan2 instead)
<lamont>
IGM uses a more expensive solver loop with more trig functions to do things more precisely, should probably upgrade PEG to IGM first
<ferram4>
Ah, yes. lamont, remember that trigonometric functions are the devil and must be exorcised from your code completely if possible. The only place it should be allowed is for UI outputs where it's just necessary.
<ferram4>
But they're expensive as hell.
<lamont>
lol
<lamont>
well so
<Dasm>
Is 80km a reasonable altitude to enter the atmosphere from Lunar orbit?
<lamont>
we don’t have to run all that shit every tick
<ferram4>
Dasm, sounds high, bring it down a little bit.
<ferram4>
I'd guess 55-65 km.
<ferram4>
Although I'd defer to NathanKell on that.
<ferram4>
He's done more of them recently than I have.
<NathanKell>
high
<NathanKell>
IMS you want 35 for a lifting reentry on Apollo.
<ferram4>
lamont, but still, it's expensive. Many orders of magnitude more expensive than Sqrt and division, so make heavy use of the trig identities.
<lamont>
it was designed to run on potatos in the 60s so all that has to run is the main guidance loop. then the solver only has run probably every second or less
<NathanKell>
but don't be afraid to flip during reentry
<NathanKell>
Dasm: make sure you have descent mode on, obvs
<NathanKell>
fix on 0 roll, then when sink rate is about 0, roll inverted
<NathanKell>
maybe a little before 0, ideally
<NathanKell>
or maybe let it skip some, your call
<NathanKell>
don't let climb rate get too high if you do want to skip a bit tho--you don't want to go above, like 100km on the skip
<Pap>
taniwha: if you are able to help...I have a struct in C++ and inside of it, I need to have an array as one of the members, but the trick is, it needs to be a pointer array because the size of the array will be determined by the user
<NathanKell>
so...just have a pointer in the struct?
<NathanKell>
arrays are just pointers anyway
<taniwha>
Pap: struct foo { datatype *array; }
<NathanKell>
^
<NathanKell>
taniwha: though I prefer the syntax datatype* array
<Pap>
Yes, that is exactly what I did
<NathanKell>
it's clearer
<taniwha>
NathanKell: not in C++
<NathanKell>
sure it is
<taniwha>
in c++ datatype *array, notarray;
<NathanKell>
yes, you can chain, in which case you have to do it on the var
<NathanKell>
but you could also do
<taniwha>
ie, the * affects only the one var, not all following vars
<Pap>
My issue now is that when I ask for input of the testScores, the program hangs after you enter the first score
<NathanKell>
datatype* array; datatype notarray
<NathanKell>
Pap: Did you malloc?
<NathanKell>
err, use new?
* NathanKell
is in C
<Pap>
yes I did, I will share on hastebin, maybe y'all can help (and not laugh or cry at my primitive code)
<taniwha>
hmm, don't quite remember the syntax. array = new [count]datatype;? new datatype[count]?
<acharles>
Pap: You should use std::vector<T> instead of raw pointers for storing arrays.
<Pap>
The void studentInput() is where it gets stuck when I ask for the test scores
<Pap>
I know I should acharles, but my homework assignment does not allow it
<acharles>
Pap: Do they want you to learn memory management?
<Pap>
Essentailly I am learning how arrays, pointers, structs and memory management works in these chapters
<Starwaster>
LAMONT: I'm using build 11
<Pap>
It is an online class (and not a good one), so I am teaching myself with the book
<taniwha>
actually, to really learn the stuff, he should be avoiding anything with <> :/
<Starwaster>
lamont, if it cant do it then it can't do it, but there's got to be a better fallback than sending my rocket into the ocean. It' dark and cold and wet down there
<taniwha>
/then/ learn templates afterwards
<taniwha>
Pap: really, your Students struct should have a constructor
<taniwha>
(and destructor)
<Dasm>
ferram4: 65 was pretty much perfect
<acharles>
Pap: The allocation on line 39 never gets used.
<NathanKell>
Dasm: Wait what, did you not do a lifting reentry?
<Dasm>
Wait.. I never use descent mode, is it important?
<NathanKell>
did you leave descent mode off or something?
<NathanKell>
YES
<NathanKell>
Did you read *none* of what I wrote above? :P
<Pap>
acharles: isn't it getting used right away in the next line, 41?
<Dasm>
Oops
<Dasm>
I was ingame
<Pap>
taniwha: from what I understand, the unique_ptr manages it all on its own (constructs and destructs) it is new in C++11
<acharles>
Pap: Nope, the next line overwrites it.
<NathanKell>
^
<taniwha>
Pap: for the pointer, yes
<acharles>
And are you using C++14 or 17, or just 11?
<taniwha>
Pap: not for the struct, though
<Pap>
The class is taught in11
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ10D
<taniwha>
Pap: the unique_ptr would take care of itself, but not the contents of any structs to which it points
<taniwha>
for those contents, you need to use constructors and destructors on your structs
<NathanKell>
Dasm: Let me know when you are reading, and I will explain lifting reentries (and therefore descent mode)
<taniwha>
and many of those functions should be member functions of your struct
<acharles>
though, you can just do `auto studentsPtr = inputFunction(totalStudents, totalTests);`
<lamont>
Starwaster: yeah that’s why i was speculating we need some kind of “just find me ANY orbit” or “just find me the lowest dV orbit” button for PEG
<taniwha>
(only difference between class and struct in C++ is default protection level: struct=public, class=private)
<taniwha>
(well, as of C++ 20 years ago)
<acharles>
taniwha: And as of present, as well. :P
<Dasm>
NathanKell: What do I have to do to level up crew with RP0? T
<lamont>
oh and Starwaster: upgrade to 13, 11 had some bugs, that might be it
<NathanKell>
Dasm: Same as regular kerbal. Toss them through SOIs.
<lamont>
also whack the “reanalyze stages” button
<taniwha>
acharles: covering my ass :)
<NathanKell>
lamont: the flow patch seems to work fine btw
<lamont>
coolness
<taniwha>
(it could have changed: there might have been other differences added)
<Starwaster>
ok I'll try it :/
<Dasm>
NathanKell: But.. I orbited the moon with my crew and they're still only level 1
<lamont>
yeah its possible because i can’t see what went wrong that i’m guessing the wrong cause — might be just as simple as the bugs i fixed today
<taniwha>
Pap: I haven't really used C++ since STL was becoming popular, and I despised streams
<Pap>
:)
<ferram4>
Alternatively, you have discovered new bugs.
<ferram4>
And now lamont has more things to fix
<taniwha>
cout, cin etc... ick
<ferram4>
Also, lamont what does IGM stang for?
<lamont>
Iterative Guidance Mode
<lamont>
PEG evolved into that in Apollo
<taniwha>
I will grant streams make life easier when printing complex objects, but if you're printing complex objects, you may be doing something wrong
<acharles>
Pap: I think if you’re learning C++, you really should learn C++11/14 if not 17 and you should definitely not try to learn new/delete or malloc/free. In 11/14, those are probably only required less than 5% of the time, if that often. Most code should use vector/unique_ptr/references/shared_ptr/weak_ptr/etc.
<Starwaster>
lamont, what MJ build are you branched from?
<taniwha>
acharles: I'd recommend the other way: pre-STL C++
<lamont>
i think its off of current dev branch, i don’t think anything new has been merged
<taniwha>
acharles: learn how it all works, then build on that
<Starwaster>
hmmm
<taniwha>
(jump from pre-STL to latest)
<lamont>
it should have your “further docking AP fixes”
<taniwha>
or, heck, learn C
<taniwha>
/really/ learn how it all works (without the insanity of ASM)
<lamont>
oh maybe not
<acharles>
taniwha: I’d probably agree if everyone would continue learning until they actually understood everything.
<taniwha>
don't really need to understand everything
<Starwaster>
yeah I'm thinking not.... my guys are stuck about half meter off the port's axis
<taniwha>
more, enough to understand the /why/s of things
<Starwaster>
oh well
<acharles>
taniwha: I’d much rather have new C++ programmers know the safe abstractions that make the language effectively like a C# or python rather than having them learn the hard parts that take years to get right.
<taniwha>
(and seriously, learning C takes a few days at most)
<lamont>
Starwaster: it looks like i need to rebase to pick that up, but i’ll have to do that tomorow since i’m too tired to not screw that up
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<taniwha>
acharles: C# is hardly safe
<lamont>
*cough* rust *cough*
<acharles>
taniwha: I know.
<acharles>
taniwha: That wasn’t my point.
<taniwha>
and I didn't mean to learn it well (getting points right /is/ hard)
<NathanKell>
Dasm: Yeah, that got them halfway to level 2.
<taniwha>
but if they learn them, even poorly, they'll better understand the benefits of the abstraction layers
<taniwha>
(me, I live and breath pointers *shrug*)
<acharles>
taniwha: I’ve become slightly more pragmatic over time. I still think people should learn that. But the last thing I want is to read more crappy C++ that’s C with classes. :P
<taniwha>
sadly, it looks like that's how C++ is being taught: bad C with worse classes
<taniwha>
just with fancy stl bandaids
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vQ1EB
<acharles>
You can still study the theory of heart surgery and you can still think about it, but you never actually have to do it.
<taniwha>
more like sewing up a cut finger
* egg
glares at the strange analogies flying around
<acharles>
taniwha: Needing to use it in C++14 code is about as common as heart surgery. I don’t have statistics on either, but *shrug*
<Dasm>
What is Titan's atmosphere like?
<acharles>
taniwha: You should be using either direct ownership, a container class, unique_ptr, shared_ptr in basically every case.
<acharles>
Most data structures can be implemented in terms of unique_ptr with no performance overhead. Well, linked structures end up with recursive destructor calls, which is annoying, so it’s unlikely in some cases, even if possible.
<egg>
taniwha: a more important point is that preventing leaks without having some sort of concept of who owns (and is responsible for deallocating) which object is extremely brittle in a sizeable codebase, be it in C or in old C++. In modern C++ it happens that you have abstractions that formalize this concept, so you use that, it documents things (and makes some things checked by a compiler) as well as actually doing the deallocation
<acharles>
For code bases with millions of lines of code, I would probably expect delete to only be explicitly used (in a warranted way) about 10 times or so.
<acharles>
Depends on how many custom data structures they have and whether they implement graphs or not.
<acharles>
Though, perhaps as high as 100 would be reasonable.
<egg>
it's going to depend, if you're implementing your own data structures it can be reasonable to have a bunch of them
<egg>
(although even then, if you just need contiguous memory, unique_ptr<T[]>
<egg>
)
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<egg>
acharles: I'd say the main valid use would be pointers with static storage duration
<egg>
there you have to go through that, can't have a nontrivially deleted object with static storage duration, that's evil
<acharles>
You can’t delete something with static storage duration
<egg>
acharles: you can delete what it points too
<egg>
s/.$//
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: acharles: you can delete what it points to
<acharles>
Yes, but even in that case, you could use unique_ptr
<egg>
no
<egg>
you should never do that
<egg>
not with static storage duration
<acharles>
You mean globals?
<egg>
even local statics
<egg>
but definitely globals
<acharles>
You shouldn’t have globals anyways. At least, not ones that aren’t constexpr
<egg>
that's an overly broad statement
<egg>
e.g. singletons are often useful, plenty of other applications
<acharles>
You can implement singletons without fully global things.
<egg>
acharles: yes, but they still have static storage duration, which is the thing I was talking about in the first place
<egg>
the scope and the storage duration are unrelated
<acharles>
egg: But anyways, I have goals when programming. You can’t always meet them, but never using globals is one of them. :P
<egg>
acharles: and there are other applications for things with both namespace scope and static storage duration (an obvious one would be command-line flags)
<taniwha>
egg: I'm not arguing against using or learning the high-level stuff. I'm arguing against not learning the low-level stuff
<acharles>
taniwha: I’d never suggest not learning low level stuff.
<blowfish>
Dasm: denser than earth's, mostly CO2, cold
<acharles>
taniwha: But it’s not useful to learn it first, when you’ll never need it for most stuff.
<egg>
acharles: on (non-constexpr) globals, again, that's overly broad in general, though obviously you don't want to plaster things with them. There are limited applications for those
<blowfish>
allegedly Titan goes through a methane cycle much like Earth's water cycle
<taniwha>
acharles: yet it's taught first (see Pap's exercise)
<egg>
taniwha: the teaching of programming is abysmally shitty
<taniwha>
egg: makes me glad I skipped it :)
<acharles>
egg: Like I said, goal. Just like never using goto. I’ve seen at least one algorithm that it’s impossible to write efficiently without goto. In that case, use goto.
<taniwha>
(self taught)
<taniwha>
every programming class I took was just easy points
<egg>
taniwha: for programming largely too (or parents-taught perhaps)
<acharles>
taniwha: People are often wrong. My opinion on C++ doesn’t have to agree with other people’s or even reality. :P
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<acharles>
I liked being right, though I don’t like having to tell people that I told them so. :P
<egg>
crap it's twenty past ten already? I should go to work
* egg
stares at egg|work|egg
<acharles>
taniwha: Not sure what you mean.
<acharles>
egg: It’s 1:23am here, but I’m not going to sleep. :P
<taniwha>
acharles: that is is a really good tool
<taniwha>
yes, there are times where it fails to catch things, but it is still very useful
<taniwha>
"tool for the job", really
<taniwha>
(and valgrind really hates unity 5)
<taniwha>
or probably any version
<acharles>
taniwha: I didn’t say it was bad. I did say that it will miss things that the clang sanitizers will catch, because they have more domain knowledge.
<taniwha>
oh, yeah
<taniwha>
I wasn't defending it, just clarifying my comment
<taniwha>
could do with scaling up, maybe, but still a nice place
<Rokker>
earth master race
<Pap>
lol Rokker
<Bornholio>
i tanke a look taniwha
<Pap>
Bornholio: you know things about nuclear "stuff"
<Bornholio>
in geneneral yes :P
<Pap>
If I told you that an RTG was producing 25 watts for 5 years, could you tell how much Pu-238 was onboard? Or should I be able to do that on my own using the half life?
<Bornholio>
no you need to know the eficiency of the generator cycle
<Bornholio>
if you know the W(th) then yes roughly
<Pap>
Bornholio: Here is the quote: "produced about 2.7 We at beginning-of-mission from a radioisotope heat source that provided a thermal power of about 52.5 Wt
<Pap>
What does We and Wt stand for there?
<Bornholio>
Watt electrical and thermal
<Bornholio>
so yes we should be able to roughly guess the amount of Pu-238 in the system
<Bornholio>
what mission is it in?
<Bornholio>
ah snap -3a
<Bornholio>
sorry probably 3B
<Bornholio>
it was likely a 0.1kg fuel core roughly
<Bornholio>
pap if you need a rough guide for any RTG the thermal output is ~560W(th) for plutonium, if the listed wattage is at a specific tiem you need to use the halflife equation to find the starting wattage
<Bornholio>
per kg
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<Pap>
Yeah, I am looking for the amounts of Pu-238 in SNAP-3B, SNAP-9A and SNAP-10 so I can configure those parts and utilize the nodes in the tree
<Pap>
s/SNAP-10/SNAP-19
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: Yeah, I am looking for the amounts of Pu-238 in SNAP-3B, SNAP-9A and SNAP-19 so I can configure those parts and utilize the nodes in the tree
<Bornholio>
have a sheet or just pluging into configs stepwise?
<Bornholio>
most of the SNAP's are ten Pu pellets for 525W thermal, generators got a lot better though
<Pap>
I guess that here is the real thing I am trying to figure out because I don't care about how much Pu-238 is in there other than to get the costs of the RTG's themselves
<Pap>
Currently, I am operating with Pen & Paper
<Bornholio>
cost is hard :/
<Pap>
Cost of 110 grams of Pu-238 for the MSL mission was 8,560,000 in 2015 dollars
<Pap>
That makes it cost of 1,138,000 in 1965 dollars for 110 grams of Pu-238, that seems low to me, but what do I know
<Bornholio>
its a lot more expensive now than it was during the heyday of nuclear processing
<Pap>
I am probably influenced by the fact that stock RTG are the most expensive things in game
<Pap>
Alright, total cost for Cassini RTG's were 118m each in normalized 2015 dollars, I am going to base things off of that in order to keep it in line for gameplay
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<Bornholio>
no, not that much heat or pressure plus the acid is bad
<Bornholio>
if you areasking about the real one :)
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<Dasm>
Well.. what do I need to put something on Venus then?
<Bornholio>
well look at the part properties of anything that must survive descent and make sure it can hit 100atm and let me look for a temp
<Bornholio>
and 740K temp
<Bornholio>
you can somewhat reduce the values you need by landing on the higher platuea regions
<Maxsimal>
!tell NathanKell* I checked, the MM patch worked, avionics had 'tag avionics - contains avionics' on their detail page.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: and you reselected the preset ingame so it reloaded?
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [11.07.2017 17:01:39]: "I checked, the MM patch worked, avionics had 'tag avionics - contains avionics' on their detail page."
<NathanKell|WORK>
Maxsimal: then upload the preset somewhere, and make an issue on KCT about it
<NathanKell|WORK>
either we're missing something or there's a bug
<NathanKell|WORK>
brb
<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: No, didn't reselect it, but I did just reload the game from scratch. I'll try that anyway though
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<Maxsimal>
NathanKell: No reloading didn't help either. I'll post in the KCT github about it
<egg>
Pap: iirc you told me there were plans for an RSS release with the moons of uranus etc., what's the status on that? also, what about KSP-RO/RealSolarSystem#91 ?
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<Pap>
egg: Ceres, Vesta and the 5 largest moons of Uranus are included in a PR into RSS. I do not know the release timeline of RSS as of right now though
<Qboid>
[#110] title: Add tracking stations used in launches from Kourou | I probably did not use the correct naming convention (nor range), but the location is correct. | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealSolarSystem/issues/110
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<egg|nomz|egg>
(ping leudaimon|Work for the above)
<Pap>
egg|nomz|egg: I did not create a PR, I just added them to a new branch for RSS (sorry for the mis-information)
<Pap>
egg|nomz|egg: I haven't looked at the orientation of Pluto, I am pretty sure that Phineas Freak was going to handle that
<Dasm>
Apollo 11 day is coming up soon
<leudaimon|work>
Pap: I added Natal in that PR, as well as Ascencion (Georgetown) - those are the same thing
<leudaimon|work>
I"m having trouble now to find the esa website where I saw the info on the one in Georgetown
<leudaimon|work>
the latest esa launch from kourou I watched live I made sure the mid atlantic station was labeled georgetown
<leudaimon|work>
navermind, you are right it's ascencion
<leudaimon|work>
I actually got the location right, just the name is wrong, fixing now
<leudaimon|work>
how crazy, the tracking station in Natal is in a test launch site whose name, translated is "hell's barrier" while the tracking station in Ascencion is in a location named "Devil's Ashpit"
<Bornholio>
sounds like good names to me
<leudaimon|work>
I"m not sure if Libreville is already in that config
<egg|nomz|egg>
not last I looked but that was maybe a year ago
<egg|nomz|egg>
leudaimon|Work: is Barreira Natal? I can't find much about Barreira when looking at arianespace etc. stuff
<leudaimon|work>
yeah, sorry... it's the name in portuguese
<egg|nomz|egg>
ah, do we have a convention for which localization we pick in that file?
<ProjectThoth>
So I came across an interesting document (behind a paywall, so I'll just describe it).
<ProjectThoth>
It's an SSTO concept that, to satisfy the cargo and crew requirement for the Shuttle, split them into two components - the (reusable) launch vehicle would have an integrated 60' payload bay, and the crew would land in a really dinky variable-geometry Shuttle.
<egg>
"the only regular planetary natural satellite in the Solar System known not to be tidally locked." huh
<egg>
though the only *known*
<egg>
thanks to Voyager 2, many small messy moons aren't imaged that well
<Pap>
huh, very interesting
<egg>
Pap: try poking UmbralRaptor for more
<egg>
he doesn't bite
<egg>
he may stab, occasionally
<egg>
mind the talons
<Pap>
!wpn Pap
* Qboid
gives Pap a private ship
<Pap>
I am ready egg
<egg>
Pap: UmbralRaptor might be afk
<leudaimon|work>
egg I was afk, will go through the backchat, but saw you found libreville :)
<leudaimon|work>
I'll update it in the pr asap
<Dasm>
Pap: It just hit me.. We have months because of moon phases
<Bornholio>
moonths as my son calls them now
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<egg>
Dasm: that's also why we have Principia releases :D
<Bornholio>
egg is a lunatic
<Dasm>
egg: Explain the effects of Principia to me
<egg>
Dasm: the effects of principia onto the game, or the effects of the moon onto principia?
<Dasm>
The effect it has on the game physics in general
<Bornholio>
principia a condition which causes inflamation of the CPU region and seizures in the PEBKAC unit.
<Dasm>
...
<Pap>
Dasm: It utilizes N-Body physics
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<egg>
Dasm: all celestials exert gravity onto each other, so they follow realistic trajectories (in fact you need principia to get the moon right with RSS, e.g. egglipses etc., it's heavily 3-body); further, all celestials exert gravity onto you at the same time, so you follow a realistic trajectory
<UmbralRaptor>
stabbity?
<egg>
it also deals with the fact that celestial bodies aren't spheres, so it simulates the gravitational effect of flattening
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: [see Pap in the backlog and the rotation of moons]
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<UmbralRaptor>
I think nix, styx, and hydra count as regular moons and chaotic rotators?
<egg>
Dasm: in order to allow you to deal with trajectories that aren't conics, it has its own trajectory plotting and planning tools
<egg>
Dasm: in particular it allows you to view the same trajectory in many reference frames, depending on what is more suited to your mission (or some bit of it)
<Bornholio>
pap my adverse comment is that previous SNAP units before 19B did indeed use plutonium metal instead of plutonium dioxide sphreres/pelets in a capsule of all later US designs
<Pap>
Bornholio: it exists the way it does to stop the contract from appearing over and over again way after you shuold be asked to complete it because you have the tech for bigger and batter satellites
<Pap>
Is there something I should put in the description to try to let people know?
<Bornholio>
i guess in the descriptions of the later one, but it would have a good chance of not gettign noticed.
<Bornholio>
i'll take a look at both configs and see if a solution hits me
<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell|WORK: With or without altitude compensation?
<Rokker>
name a better engine ignition sound
<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, possible. I ust checked and it was one of the ones still using the 0110
<ferram4>
I'm gonna check one of the other launches, see if I can find one with the 0124
<ProjectThoth>
Alt comp probably makes things easier, my favored solution is a cluster of sea-level engines and one vacuum engine.
<NathanKell|WORK>
ProjectThoth: without.
<NathanKell|WORK>
ProjectThoth: Never underestimate Titan's PMF.
<Rokker>
u cant name one, can ya
<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell|WORK: Word of God is that density is waaaayyy more important than other factors.
<ProjectThoth>
And by that, I mean Gary Hudson.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Man y'all need better gods :P
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<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell|WORK: :(
<NathanKell|WORK>
Sorry. :]
<NathanKell|WORK>
I just...he's really a bit over-invested, IMO :P
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: >relying on the word of a multiple time failed rocket startup ceo
<Rokker>
look at this noob
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: go ask tory
<NathanKell|WORK>
The problem with SSTO is it (IMO) makes pretty much *zero* sense if it's expendable
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<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: not according to arca
<NathanKell|WORK>
Well, yeah. Arca.
<NathanKell|WORK>
We shall see.
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: lol
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: ur a bit optimistic arent ya?
<Rokker>
i dont think we will see shit
<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell|WORK: Gotta be AFK, but more on that when I get back.
<NathanKell|WORK>
ProjectThoth: The issue I have with it is that, ok, so Bono (and later Hudson) mostly came at it from the presumption of reusability, and then tried to justify even when it wasn't
<NathanKell|WORK>
Cheers :)
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<NathanKell|WORK>
But the savings you get from TSTO means you can easily pay for the extra complexity by having a much smaller vehicle (with fewer/smaller engines) overall, and you don't have to deal with the complexity of throttling, altitude compensation, or anything else
<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, hunh, so supposedly the RD-0110 can throttle to 90% and can also manage emergency 107% if needed.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Interesting
<ferram4>
Although the source is in an AIAA paper and I can't confirm.
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: I am fleshing out the RTG line should be adding 6 or 7 new ones to fill out the tree
<NathanKell|WORK>
That's awesome Pap!
<NathanKell|WORK>
ProjectThoth: for when you come back. Don't mean to be crappin' on yo' stuff. SSTOs (like Shuttles) are very very cool from an engineering (and, ok, a Rule of Cool) perspective. I just don't have much faith in their practicality/efficiency.
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<Dasm>
My Atlas Centaur D-1 is coming up 200m/s short of putting the Surveyor 1 into TLI :(
<Starwaster>
once again, a bitty little 0.625m shield is expected to protect an entire rocket stack from extinction
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<SlainteMaith>
Did you know that researching specific engines through the VAB UI can really improve the reliability of it? Because I didn't. Mine kept dropping dead in the last few seconds of a burn until I found that little tidbit.
<Qboid>
SlainteMaith: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [11.07.2017 02:42:59]: "have a good one! (Sorry I missed you logging off)"
<SlainteMaith>
NathanKell is a very nice human being, I'm thinking. =)
<SlainteMaith>
Qboid Thanks for relaying the message. =)