<SlainteMaith>
It -a-l-m-o-s-t- looks like the Aurora Borealis went and took over the sky.
<NCommander>
Ramh5, it looks like it went to plaid
<SlainteMaith>
But I've had margaritas, and my opinion is questionable even when sober.
<taniwha>
Bornholio: not relevant, but why does it not surprise me TweakScale is throwing?
<taniwha>
hmm, KCT is throwing a bit
<Bornholio>
imagine that
<taniwha>
Bornholio: ok, it looks like that's the bug fixed in 0.1.2
<taniwha>
PEG throws a lot, too
<Bornholio>
okay figured i was wasting your time with an old code issue.
<taniwha>
it sounded a little different, so I wanted to make sure
<taniwha>
I'd rather "waste" a little time checking logs of an old version than give you bad info
<Bornholio>
just noticed it when i was locked out of menu during a flight.
<Bornholio>
is EB CKAN now?
<leudaimon>
NathanKell, Pap|AFK how are you guys working out PRs/commits in the pap-tech tree branch? I see some stuff I made as PRs is already in the branch, even though it shows as PRs also... I ask because of the changes I made today
<leudaimon>
I was going to send a !tell to Maxsimal and remembered it wasn't merged yet
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<taniwha>
Bornholio: no idea, I don't deal with CKAN
<leudaimon>
o/ rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
o/ (though i'm not really here)
<leudaimon>
o/ anyway
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<ProjectThoth>
Hey, got a question about balloon tanks.
<ProjectThoth>
Is 0.945 a reasonable guess for methalox balloons?
<ProjectThoth>
*propellant mass fraction for
<ProjectThoth>
Not sure what RO estimates them as.
<Bornholio>
LqdMethane is cryogenic (not as bad as LOx) so it might have slightly higher than a standard RP-1/LOx tank due to needing insulation for the fuel component
<ProjectThoth>
Hmm, didn't think of that. Neglecting insulation, then.
<ProjectThoth>
(let's assume I have the world's largest blanket)
<ProjectThoth>
I'm also curious how it was estimated. I'm *guessing* it has - oh, wait, never mind.
<ProjectThoth>
I've been looking for that paper for ages, I'm pretty sure.
<Bornholio>
has a large body of historical tank fractions
<Bornholio>
though LqdMethane will need somewhat less tank insulation it is similar in expansion ratio
<Bornholio>
to lqd hydrogen
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<Bornholio>
try searching CASI for more NASA data, they may have a methane analysis paper posted already.
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<Dasm>
Atlas Mercury is hard
<Bornholio>
hand build?
<Dasm>
Yes
<Bornholio>
67180 LOx, 43525Kero if you need the 2:30 fuel ratio
<Dasm>
Woah
<Dasm>
I actually made orbit with my first attempt
<ProjectThoth>
Someone out there did a paper on relating bulk density to tank mass, but it's behind a paywall. :/
<blowfish>
Starwaster, NathanKell - experimenting now, was not able to get significantly more boiloff after waiting a while and then turning off pumps vs turning them off immediately
<blowfish>
(waiting several hours)
<blowfish>
oh weird, tank temperature starts near 300K and then goes down with time
<Bornholio>
what is your burn time on the side boosters Dasm
<Pap|AFK>
Starwaster: First SolarSatellite can be completed at the same time as First Satellite for the possibility that Vanguard would have actually worked
<blowfish>
Starwaster: I guess I removed the bit of code that initially sets the tank temperature to be correct
<Dasm>
@Bornholio Around 2.5minutes
<Bornholio>
ProjectThoth throw a site:ntrs.nasa.gov into a search with terms you want can give nice results for basic research
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<Starwaster>
pap|afk uh ok? thanks for letting me know that, I GUESS
<Pap|AFK>
lol, why say it that way Starwaster?
<ProjectThoth>
Bornholio: Yeah, I'm just bad at searches.
<Starwaster>
I dont know what to do with that information
<Dasm>
Bornholio: My first launch with it sent me 1,100km x 130km
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<Pap|AFK>
Did you ask why they both had the same requirements?
<Starwaster>
I did?
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<Starwaster>
must be the creeping senilities
<Pap|AFK>
Nope, you sure didn't, sorry!
<Starwaster>
I do not remember this thing
<Bornholio>
lol
<Pap|AFK>
Auto sent to the wrong "S" person!
<Pap|AFK>
soundnfury: First SolarSatellite can be completed at the same time as First Satellite for the possibility that Vanguard would have actually worked
<Starwaster>
well you've got me here so how many S people do we need???
<Dasm>
Bornholio: My problem is... the thing I have set up to deorbit me is 3 small SRBs with a total Dv of 33
<Starwaster>
you know it's amazing how many people can't seem to pronounce 'waster' properly...
<Bornholio>
do it at ap retrograde
<Starwaster>
not that that is important, just sayin'
<Pap|AFK>
way-stur?
<blowfish>
Starwaster: do you know if lowestTankTemperature has any relevance outside of CalculateTankLossFunction() ? I don't see anything
<Bornholio>
dasm should get you below 70km, maybe too low :)
<Starwaster>
bi t
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<Starwaster>
I believe it's also used to flag the tank as cryogenic
<Dasm>
Bornholio: "Too low" is what I'm owrried about
<Dasm>
Atlas things are pretty cool- I think they designed it because they weren't sure about lighting engines in-flight
<Bornholio>
use a node and find what gets you a 70km
<blowfish>
Starwaster: I'm talking about ModuleFuelTanks.lowestTankTemperature, not FuelTank.temperature
<leudaimon>
you don't need to worry with too low coming from LEO
<leudaimon>
even with a negative periapsis you should survive
<Bornholio>
1100km AP
<blowfish>
Starwaster, NathanKell: the old prelaunch code also set the skin temperature. Is that relevant/necessary?
<soundnfury>
Pap|AFK: 'kay, thanks :)
<Bornholio>
little toasty still G-loading might be the problem
<leudaimon>
Bornholio, do you think G-load would be too high? because regarding Temp. a lower peri is better
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<Bornholio>
thats why i'm suggesting pushing it up near 70km
<Starwaster>
I know what you meant, it's used to cache the lowest boiling point out of all tanks in use
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<blowfish>
It's not used as a cache though, unless there's something outside of RF referencing it
<Starwaster>
blowfish skin temp is relevant because sometimes it is used instead of the part temperature in calculating the temperature delta
<Dasm>
Bornholio: I just got a 256km x 178km orbit :D
<Starwaster>
caching it is going to be relevant to analytic. I don't know if any of that code is in there now because I went through a lot of coding experiements for analytic
<Ramh5>
is there a way to reduce boiloff? I just have to redesign my entire GEO sat launcher cause the upper stage with RL10 is 700 dv short cause of boiling
<Starwaster>
but at some point it's going to be relevant
<Starwaster>
ramh5 add extra propellant
<Ramh5>
=D
<Dasm>
Wait.. so my big atlas tank and sustainer just stay up here in orbit?
<Bornholio>
yes dasm
<Bornholio>
unless you add de-orbit thrusters
<Dasm>
Are there any Atlas 1s still in orbit? Or have they all fell down?
<blowfish>
It is recomputed every time the tank loss function runs
<blowfish>
but if you want to keep it as an instance variable I can keep it
<Starwaster>
ramh5 where do you lose the most to pboiloff?
<Bornholio>
too low, they decay
<Bornholio>
and with agena i think they don't even make orbit
<Ramh5>
from low orbit to 37 000 km apoapsis where I wanna circularize and reduce inclination
<Dasm>
I can't get to orbit with first stage and an agena stage
<Ramh5>
Starwaster: I thought man the RL10 is awesome for my upper stage but maybe I need to redesign
<Bornholio>
ramh5 are you using cryogenic tanks?
<Starwaster>
blowfish when I get back into analytic coding, yes, I'm likely going to need that outside the tank loss function and I'd rather not have to run it every frame twice
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<blowfish>
sure
<Starwaster>
also:
<Starwaster>
it's subject to change if a tank is drained entirely
<blowfish>
if there are no cryogenic tanks should it be set to the part's temperature or some fixed temperature?
<Starwaster>
which is WHY it's run every fixedupdate
<Starwaster>
otherwise I'd just have run it once
<blowfish>
Starwaster: currently it is not because it always starts with its current value and takes the minimum
<blowfish>
so if you have a cryogenic tank that gets drained, it'll see the previous value and take that as the minimum
<Dasm>
Is 280x9 too low?
<Bornholio>
should be fine GLoc will happen if thats turned on
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<Starwaster>
ok I'll have to address that when I revisit boiloff
<ProjectThoth>
How are balloon tanks calculated in RO? Is it based off that paper, historical examples, something else?
<Dasm>
Bornholio: Max G was 7.5
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<Dasm>
OKAY! I need.. a thing capable of sending a thing to GEO
<Dasm>
Maybe atlas centaur?
<Starwaster>
how big a thing?
<Starwaster>
or how massive a thing
<Dasm>
1,064kg
<Dasm>
That has 2480Dv on its own
<ProjectThoth>
I'd say Atlas-Centaur would be able to do it (send it to GTO, at least).
<ProjectThoth>
Which I'm really looking forward to testing, once the Bitcoin rush cools down and I can build a new rig. :/
<acharles>
I was just reading about hexagon on the space review
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ6JE
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree 98b343b NathanKell: Increase crew G tolerance
<NathanKell>
ProjectThoth: RF tank mass is the basemass times the total volume, plus the mass per tank times each tank's volume
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<NathanKell>
ProjectThoth: So for a Balloon tank, find name = Balloon in the tanks cfg, and note its basemass. Then find the TANKs for LqdOxygen and LqdMethane.
<NathanKell>
And note *their* mass lines
<NathanKell>
The final volume will be, per liter, basemass + (lox tank mass per liter * lox _volume_ ratio) + (methane tank mass per liter * methane _volume_ ratio)
<ProjectThoth>
In this case, "basemass = 0.000001 * volume."
<NathanKell>
ok, so next to nothing then
<NathanKell>
right, balloon
<ProjectThoth>
So, hang on while I try this (assuming an O:F volume ratio of 1.290:1.000).
<NathanKell>
that volume not mass, yes?
<NathanKell>
just to be clear
<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell: Yup!
<NathanKell>
cool. Because only KSP is insane enough to care about volume ratios, so... :]
<ProjectThoth>
So the final volume per liter (and now I'm thinking about how nuts this is) is 0.000001 + (0.014 * 1.000) + (0.012 * 1.290) ?
<NathanKell>
nope, 0.014 * (1/2.29) and 0.012 * (1.29/2.29)
<taniwha>
ProjectThoth: volume/L or mass/L?
<NathanKell>
remember to divide by the total :)
<NathanKell>
oh, and taniwha's right too :]
<NathanKell>
didn't even notice
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<NathanKell>
o/ regex
<ProjectThoth>
taniwha: The thing that KSP cares too much about (volume ratios).
<regex>
\o
<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell: Ah, jeez, I see it now.
<Raidernick>
NathanKell, i thought the ullage from boiloff had been adjusted to be less extreme for rf a bit ago
<NathanKell>
Dasm: RS-25 comes with Shuttle-era (1981 or so) hydrolox
<Raidernick>
it seems like it's still way too strong
<NathanKell>
Raidernick: Sorry, no idea
<NathanKell>
Raidernick: Starwaster and blowfish would know better than I for the last 9 months or so
<Raidernick>
ok
<Starwaster>
define extreme
<Starwaster>
raidernick
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<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ6Jp
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree 7fe9258 NathanKell: Missed a level
<Raidernick>
as in i can attach a single rl10 to a 60 tonne ship
<Raidernick>
and it always has ullage settle
<blowfish>
there is an issue with the initial tempreature of the tanks being too high on RF 12.2.0
<NathanKell>
Raidernick: what kind of loss rate from the tanks?
<Raidernick>
that's the thing i don't see any boiloff
<Raidernick>
does it not work in timewarp?
<Raidernick>
i could swear it used to
<blowfish>
it should work in timewarp
<ProjectThoth>
So that's 0.012875 kg/L, then, all told (I'm bad at unit cancellation).
<taniwha>
ProjectThoth: unit cancellation is no different to variable cancellation
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<NathanKell>
ProjectThoth: taniwha would know better, but that seems not unreasonable to me
<ProjectThoth>
Also, what an immensely odd way of looking about propellant tanks.
<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell taniwha Thanks for the help!
<taniwha>
ProjectThoth: how is it odd?
<NathanKell>
ProjectThoth: Yeah, it's a relic from the first MFT
<ProjectThoth>
taniwha: I'm used to looking at tanks from the standpoint of pmf.
<NathanKell>
taniwha: There is no base mass
<NathanKell>
just stringer mass
<NathanKell>
(well, there's sure a basemass for _non_ integral tanks >.> )
<NathanKell>
or, yeah. PMF. But PMF scales by resource density and that's wrong.
<taniwha>
anyway, for relatively low pressure, I imagine 12g/L might be reasonable
<NathanKell>
ProjectThoth: Consider putting both kerosene and, say, NTO in a tank.
<NathanKell>
The NTO tank is not going to be appreciably heavier dry.
<NathanKell>
Which means their PMFs will differ.
<Starwaster>
raidernick probably need more info and clarification... how are you determining that there is or is not boiloff? Do you have boiloff debugging turned on?
<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell: Oh, right, I read a bit about that earlier.
<Starwaster>
or are you looking at the resource listing and seeing that there's no loss? (0.00 counts as loss because it's rounded)
<ProjectThoth>
I was looking at relating pmf and bulk density, in my own efforts to try and quantify this stuff.
<taniwha>
but anyway, yeah, required tank mass is directly proportional to the volume of its contents for the same pressure
<NathanKell>
yeah, PMF should to some extent be a function of content density
<NathanKell>
That's one reason why HTP-kero (bestill soundnfury's beating heart) is better than it looks
<NathanKell>
s/beating/fluttering/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: That's one reason why HTP-kero (bestill soundnfury's fluttering heart) is better than it looks
<Raidernick>
Starwaster, talking to blowfish about it now, no(or very little boiloff at highest warps), i transferred to mars and still had lox in the tank when i got there
<Raidernick>
i didn't actually quantify it
<NathanKell>
Also that you get closed-cycle for free, which is cool.
<Raidernick>
but that's not right
<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell: You think Haas 2CA is viable?
<NathanKell>
I mean, I am not soundnfury and therefore am not keen on HTP.
<taniwha>
Raidernick: it's a long cold trip out to Mars
<NathanKell>
But it's better than it looks, it's just that it *looks* like utter rubbish
<taniwha>
might be cold enough to really slow down boiloff
<Bornholio>
Haas looks like a scam
<ProjectThoth>
I'm a fan of methalox so far, like everyone else.
<taniwha>
I'm a fan of "let's just go already!"
<taniwha>
:)
<Starwaster>
raidernick have you checked the temperature of the part?
<Raidernick>
taniwha, i didn't check the exact numbers but i had 20ish liters left at end of burn and still 20 when i got there maybe it boiled off at the fractional level
<Raidernick>
but that doesn't seem right still
<ProjectThoth>
taniwha: Hey, I can agree with that sentiment.
<Starwaster>
what kind of tank is it
<Raidernick>
cryogenic
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: lol
* NathanKell
hears the clopping of black horses
<NathanKell>
Ah, right. Sarbian, any progress on that flow issue?
<Starwaster>
any boiloff mitigation parts? (thinking mainly Heat Pumps; stock radiators don't work very well/at all in analytic)
<Raidernick>
Starwaster, no
<Raidernick>
it's a single part
<Raidernick>
nothing else on it, no other part modules
<Starwaster>
...
<Starwaster>
not quite what I meant but doesnt matter
<Raidernick>
what did youmean
<taniwha>
whole ship
<Raidernick>
the block d is a single part, then the decoupler then a single part probe
<Raidernick>
the probe only has a control core and a battery
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ6Ul
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree 774ffe2 NathanKell: Lower fixed-BP cost of building things
<NathanKell>
Raidernick: Cryogenic, or ServiceModule ?
<Raidernick>
cryogenic
<NathanKell>
ok. Thought Blok D was SM at some point, nm.
<Starwaster>
raidernick would you mind putting up your ModuleManager.ConfigCache somewhere (Dropbox) for me to download?
<Ramh5>
Is there a good place to show off and ask for criticism over our rockets? spefifically for RO, I feel the ksp reddit is not really good for that
<Ramh5>
I feel many have much more knowledge than me and would like to absorb as much I can
<Ramh5>
Dasm: really cool man, way nicer than my geoSats I am sending right now
<Dasm>
NathanKell: I sent it with an Atlas Centaur :D
<NathanKell>
:)
<Starwaster>
blowfish the result of experimenting with lerping versus not-lerping. Probably will just lerp = true. Right now it's not actually affecting anything. guaranteed.
<blowfish>
well yes, if you set it to true in both branches then we can be reasonably sure that it's true :)
<ProjectThoth>
You folks think 0.965 is probably a good pmf guess for LOX/LCH4 in a balloon tank?
<Starwaster>
no, I mean that it's not going to cause any issues with anything
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell deleted makeGitHappy at dd69a76: https://git.io/vQ6UH
<NathanKell>
ProjectThoth: depends how much engine you got on there
<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell: Engine with a TWR of about 93 (not sure how realistic that is), but making out for an overall TWR of about 1.4-1.5.
<NathanKell>
Ah, then that's a bit too good
<ProjectThoth>
Aw, drat.
<ProjectThoth>
What's BE-4 supposed to be? TWR less than 100?
<NathanKell>
A starting vac TWR of 1.4-1.5, yes?
<ProjectThoth>
Yeah, thereabouts.
<NathanKell>
Yeah, then I'd expect more like .96, maybe even .955
<blowfish>
Starwaster: also just noticed that part temperature gets very negative in high timewarp. I don't think it's related to my changes
<NathanKell>
your LCH4 is half as dense as kero. That's gonna hurt.
<blowfish>
only on the fuel tank
<NathanKell>
Plus your engine is *way* heavier than a 105.
<ProjectThoth>
NathanKell: That's probably where I'm being optimistic in the BE-4, yeah.
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|NOMZ
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
o/
<ProjectThoth>
\o
<ProjectThoth>
Also, general question, what mod *has* a BE-4 in it?
<Starwaster>
blowfish what kind of tank?
<blowfish>
there's a 2x one from stock revamp, doesn't really look right
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<Starwaster>
blowfish not sure how that would be happening... the boiloff deals in removing flux through the stock methods. Which clamp the temperature to no lower than 4. I'll look into in depth later tonight
<blowfish>
ok cool, thanks
<blowfish>
no huge rush I don't think, just happened to notice
<blowfish>
boiloff still seems to happen fine
<Starwaster>
do you have boiloff debugging enabled?
<Raidernick>
ProjectThoth, the ula pack has a be4
<blowfish>
I do not
<Starwaster>
if you're going to do any kind of development in that area then you should enable it.
<blowfish>
ah yeah probably
<Starwaster>
it will provide you with information on tank wall temperature and hourly boiloff mass
<Starwaster>
has to be enabled in the... RFSettings I think
<blowfish>
yes
<blowfish>
is there any way to set RFSettings without editing/patching configs?
<ProjectThoth>
Raidernick: Do you have a link handy?
<Starwaster>
like menu options? No, has to be turned on in the file
<blowfish>
ah ok
<Starwaster>
in RFSETTINGS, debugBoilOff = True
* taniwha
curses at debian. no curses for C#
<Starwaster>
I always have it turned on, even if I'm not debugging or actively in development mode. I like having that info up
<Dasm>
An orbit with a minimum inclination of 35? Sooooo, my orbit needs to be pretty tilted in relation to the equator?
<Starwaster>
but I defaulted it to false because other people might not want their context menus getting any more crowded
<ferram4>
Hmm... I think it might actually be possible to build a contract that works out perfectly for a film camera spy satellite.
<ferram4>
Including the recovery requirements and somewhere to take a picture of.
Pap|AFK is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
<Starwaster>
trying to code stuff with an extreme case of coders block... what should have taken 15 minutes has taken me hours.... it'll be a miracle if it works
<ferram4>
Pap, you know more about contracts than I do. Do you know how to set up a contract to randomly generate a waypoint that an experiment needs to be run near?
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<Pap>
ferram4: brb with an answer
<ferram4>
Because if there is I'll throw together a basic Corona contract and then some repeatable Keyhole contracts.
<blowfish>
Starwaster: speaking of that setting, there are a few things that spam the log in analytic mode. I think they might be worth putting behind that setting
<Starwaster>
ah which things exactly? Maybe they're something that we don't actually need? I'd swear I removed a bunch of analytic spammy things but that *might* not have made it into my commits
<Starwaster>
blowfish I say leave the fourth one (may be useful if I need a player's logs) and surround each of the other three in #if DEBUG/#endif
<Bornholio>
what missions are available regex
<blowfish>
will do, sounds good
<regex>
Sounding rockets and early stuff
<Bornholio>
can you do the Manned SO with an X-1 cockpit yet?
<Pap>
regex: are you fast forwarding to get enough techs to reach orbit?
<Starwaster>
hey speaking of contracts, is it possible to generate contracts that require the player to go "pick up a supply of KSC Issue Regulation Black Form Binders Request Form Forms" from some random space station?
<Starwaster>
o.O
<ferram4>
Pap, ah, cool. I'll base off of that and get something slightly more complicated for the early sats.
<regex>
I just did the sound barrier missions. I suppose fast-forwardind to orbit is the way to go. Just trying to get a feel for how this is supposed to be played because right now it's hella boring.
<ferram4>
Something to require landing the cameras near the KSC.
<Bornholio>
I do the high payout stuff only nover anything like the repeatable sats missions
<Dasm>
Oh right.. liquid hydrogen and oxygen boil off
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<blowfish>
Starwaster: mind taking a look at my fix to make sure I'm not breaking anything else?
<Qboid>
[#194] title: Boiloff fix | My recent changes to launch clamp behavior caused tanks to start near 300K rather than fuel temperature. This causes higher boiloff (initially) than you should have. | https://github.com/NathanKell/ModularFuelSystem/issues/194
<ProjectThoth>
Does RO have any methalox engines?
<Bornholio>
yes, lml for which mod
<Bornholio>
Real ISRU has a couple of notional ones from Mars lander studies, the BE-4 is in a couple of places
<blowfish>
RL10 has a methalox config
<Bornholio>
\GameData\RealismOverhaul\Engine_Configs location has configs, including BE4
<blowfish>
well, really CECE but most RL10s will have it
<ProjectThoth>
Bornholio: Mostly trying to track down a BE-4.
<ProjectThoth>
Ah, looking in the wrong place, dur.
<Pap>
^^ That mod doesn't exist yet, the KK one :(
<Bornholio>
so vens is the common one
<Starwaster>
blowfish: lowestTankTemperature: Why throw analytic temps or part.temperature into the mix at all? It's not supposed to be anything except the lowest boiling point out of all configured tanks with postive amounts
<ProjectThoth>
Yay, data!
<Pap>
Raidernick: Do you know if there is an ETA on the ULA pack?
<blowfish>
Starwaster: if there are no cryogenic tanks then shoudln't it just be the part's temperature?
<blowfish>
bah, spelling
<Starwaster>
no it shouldn't....
<Starwaster>
that has potential implications for radiators
<Starwaster>
Have you considered those implications? I haven't
<blowfish>
well it explicitly does not consider tanks with VSP <= 0
<blowfish>
and that was the case before as well
<ferram4>
Pap: Is the earliest tech that gives you heat shields entryDescentLanding?
<Pap>
yes ferram4
<ferram4>
Ty
<ferram4>
Don't wanna require recovery if it can't be done. :P
<Starwaster>
blowfish you mean it explicitly doesn't consider tanks with vsp <= 0 OR loss_rate <= 0
<blowfish>
yes
<blowfish>
but don't non-cryo propellants have neither of those things?
<Starwaster>
lowestTankTemperature is the lowest boiling point of all tanks (AND amount > 0)
<Starwaster>
correct!
<blowfish>
right
<blowfish>
so in the case that there are no cryogenic fuels (or amount is 0) that method still has to return something
<Starwaster>
they are non cryo so they cant boiloff so we dont consider them.
<Starwaster>
it shouldnt be based on part.temperature at all
<Starwaster>
or analytic either
<Starwaster>
this affects radiators too
<blowfish>
which is why the method has to return *something*
<Starwaster>
if there are NO cryo tanks then lowestTankTemperature should be a base default temperature. I chose 300. Maybe there's a better value but if there are NO cryo tanks then that it shouldnt vary
<Starwaster>
no cryotanks means that lowestTankTemperature should not change
<blowfish>
if you want 300 then that's fine
<Dasm>
Is it easier to change inclination at high altitude, or low altitude?
<blowfish>
I'll change it then
<Pap>
Dasm: cheapest to do it at apoapsis
<Starwaster>
if you base it on part temperature then you're telling the vessel's radiators that they need to cool the part down to that temperature
<blowfish>
well in that case wouldn't it be telling them they don't need to cool at all?
<Bornholio>
Dasm if you are circularizing at AP, combine the two
<Starwaster>
by default the radiators want to cool to BELOW that temperature
<Starwaster>
0.99 below
<Starwaster>
0.99 below the lowestTankTemperature
<blowfish>
ah
<blowfish>
ok, I'll just have it default to 300
<Starwaster>
so basically you're throwing it a feedback loop where it's going to keep chilling and chilling and chilling
<Starwaster>
there's reasons for all of these things and there may well be places it could be improved but you have to be careful what gets changed or it's going to have adverse effects
<Starwaster>
brb going to go make popcorn
<blowfish>
Starwaster: when you get back I added another commit to fix this. Also made sure to only set the temperature in the case that there are actually cryogenic resources present
<blowfish>
granted, this only matters for initialization and when launch clamps are attached, so the chances of their being empty cryogenic tanks at this point is extremely small
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<taniwha>
blowfish: while I suppose launching empty tanks makes little sense in RO (why not use the space for fuel for ΔV for the launch), what about launching empty tanks up to a station or interplanetary ship being built in orbit?
<blowfish>
yeah
<blowfish>
this should cover that case though
<blowfish>
since it explicitly does not overwrite the temperature if no cryogenic resources are present
<taniwha>
ok, just wanted to make sure that you weren't writing off the possibility of there being empty cryogenic tanks
<xShadowx>
ive launched empty tanks, kerbals gotta take a piss into somethin :|
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<Starwaster>
blowfish, I just ran a quick test run and I don't see negative temperatures happening. It's a simple setup with an orange jumbo tank (which is cryo).
<blowfish>
even at the highest timewarp?
<Starwaster>
yeah, highest timewarp
<Starwaster>
however, I have not pulled down the latest commits for 1.2.2
<Starwaster>
so maybe something crept in somewhere or maybe you have another mod screwing with the temps
<blowfish>
yeah hmm
<blowfish>
let me try before my changes
<Starwaster>
the only time RF ever touches temps directly is on the pad and (with your changes) only if there are launch cmaslsp
<Starwaster>
clamps
<Starwaster>
and stock clamps it at 4k
<Starwaster>
are there other mods you have that might touch temps?
<Starwaster>
it just doesnt seem likely that even your changes would be doing that
Pap is now known as Pap|AFK
<blowfish>
I don't think so
<Starwaster>
even if you had already built and were using the ones we were discussing earlier
<blowfish>
nope, install is pretty minimal
<Starwaster>
are you using only the thermal debugging to check temps? or something that reports celsius?
<blowfish>
thermal debugging, yeah
<blowfish>
(enabled via F12 menu)
<Starwaster>
hmmm
<blowfish>
yup, reproduced without my changes
<blowfish>
launch, cheat to a high orbit, set highest timewarp
<Starwaster>
ok what's the exact setup? should I be able to repro this with JUST an orange tank? Stick one up in orbit and timewarp to max?
<blowfish>
it's basically RF stockalike + mods required to support it
<Starwaster>
what did you load the tank with?
<blowfish>
LH2+LOX
<blowfish>
(ro is too much for testing purposes)
<Starwaster>
even load?
<blowfish>
no, I piced an engine with a hydrolox config and set the ratio based on that
<blowfish>
picked
<blowfish>
reproduced with just hydrogen
<blowfish>
and then coming out of high timewarp the temp spikes to like 600K
<blowfish>
even got rid of the probe core
<blowfish>
on commit c58239
<blowfish>
err, worth noting I guess that my test setup is KSP 1.3
<Starwaster>
ah ok I'm testing in 1.2.2
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<Starwaster>
blowfish: Did you also say that you STILL have boiloff even with negative temps reported?
<blowfish>
yes
<Starwaster>
which temps are negative, skin, part or both
<blowfish>
internal is negative
<blowfish>
skin seems to stabilize around 1200K
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<blowfish>
which is also weird
<taniwha>
something still in C by mistake?
<blowfish>
wouldn't explain temperatures of -1500K
<Starwaster>
ok, that part is cryo which means it's treated as having MLI and the way I simulated that was to use skin temp as the tank wall temp for MLI or the internal if just normal SOFI insulation
<taniwha>
blowfish: hmm, yeah, that's a tad chilly
<Starwaster>
so the internal temp being negative wont stop boiloff
<Starwaster>
so that explains why boiloff still works
<Starwaster>
the only thing I can think of is that something has changed with analytic in KSP 1.3.0 which I haven't had a chance to start with in RF
<blowfish>
I can try to test with 1.2.2 tomorrow
<Starwaster>
uhm and I'd treat it as a KSP bug that it can go negative at all
<Starwaster>
because there USED to be checks to clamp it to 4k
<Starwaster>
just out of crusiosity
<Starwaster>
CURIOSITYYYYY
<Starwaster>
what happens if you quicksave with negative temps and then quickload?
<Starwaster>
it SHOULD fix the temps
<Starwaster>
if it does NOT fix it then... KSP bug
<Starwaster>
and we should nail that down ASAP and get it to JPLRepo
<blowfish>
for 1.3.1, yeah
<blowfish>
I'll try, might be hard to nail given high boil rate though
<blowfish>
it ceases to be negative after leaving timewarp
<Starwaster>
does the temp normalize once the tank has compleetely boiled away?
<Starwaster>
(it probably should)
<blowfish>
yes
<JPLRepo>
I actually found and fixed a temp bug on part start last week.
<Starwaster>
suddenly a wild JPLRepo appears!
<JPLRepo>
always here
<JPLRepo>
unless I'm not here.
<JPLRepo>
haha
<Starwaster>
so no simultaneous tea and no tea?
<blowfish>
interesting, if you quicksave while in prelaunch that then becomes your revert to launch
<blowfish>
starwaster: any other comments on my fix
<Starwaster>
mp Pt hj
<Starwaster>
no I think that was it, just the lowestTankTemperature issue
<Starwaster>
I think everything else was probably ok but I always like to test the crap out of boiloff stuff so
<Starwaster>
jplrepo, any significant changes in analytic in 1.3.0 with regards to the analytic interfaces? And is the order of execution the same? (CalculateAnalytic, SetAnalyticTemperature, GetInternalTemperature, GetSkinTemperature?
<blowfish>
yeah, I'll try to get a 1.2.2 install up tomorrow and test
<JPLRepo>
that stuff should be the same. no changes were done with regard to physics orders.
<Starwaster>
there's only one place this could be happening but even a temperature sanity check went missing in KSP, it would still mean that we're throwing back a negative temperature in analytic...
<Starwaster>
but nothing has changed there, that's what's in the current code base on master and that's what I also have on my side
<blowfish>
yeah, I don't get it either
<Starwaster>
uhm do you still have those spammy lines in on the build you ere testing? What does THAT say? It should have some clue
<Starwaster>
and is there a 1.3.0 test build you can send me? I'm not set up to compile for 1.3 for RF yet
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<Starwaster>
jplrepo, any chance that flux bug I reported might have actually already got fixed in 1.3 instead of the upcoming update?
<Starwaster>
wait nvm... that wouldnt affect analytic anyway
<Starwaster>
hmmm
<JPLRepo>
no. but that will be in 1.3.1
<Starwaster>
okeh dokeh
NathanKell|NOMZ is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<NathanKell>
Starwaster, blowfish, what are you guys puzzling over?
<blowfish>
I'm getting negative temperature on tanks at high time warp
<NathanKell>
hmm
<Starwaster>
gegative temps in ksp 1.3 on time warp
<NathanKell>
but not 1.2?
<Starwaster>
no
<NathanKell>
Is boiloff still on a coroutine?
<Starwaster>
yes
<NathanKell>
Try using timingmanager instead, that's what it's there for. That might avoid some weirdness.
<NathanKell>
Logically it shouldn't, but coroutines are weird
<Starwaster>
how would you use that to ensure that MFT goes last? absolute end of fixedupdate
<NathanKell>
use anything that's post-FI.
<NathanKell>
any timing, that is.
<NathanKell>
but, sorry, it's been a while--why do you *want* to go last?
<Starwaster>
to ensure that boiloff happens AFTER radiators and heat pumps have had a chance to intercept and remove heat
<NathanKell>
but they don't until the next frame anyway.
<NathanKell>
heat is added in FI, and processed on the next fixed frame.
<NathanKell>
You just want to go after radiators but before FI, then, IMO.
<NathanKell>
processed as in, visible to radiators etc.
<NathanKell>
cycle is: fixed frame runs, wherein everything reacts to a part's temperature and does stuff and applies fluxes. Then FI runs and applies fluxes and updates temp.
<NathanKell>
then the cycle repeats
<acharles>
Ideally, you’d base boiloff on both the previous temp and current temp of the part. But if you can only base it on one of them, then it probably doesn’t matter which, as long as it’s consistent, right?
<NathanKell>
s/applies/adds/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: cycle is: fixed frame runs, wherein everything reacts to a part's temperature and does stuff and adds fluxes. Then FI runs and applies fluxes and updates temp.
<NathanKell>
there, that's correct, not reusing 'applies'
<NathanKell>
Running after FI is, in effect, running at the start of the *next* frame.
<NathanKell>
just, before vessel precalc runs in the next frame.
<Starwaster>
well it's been working so far
<NathanKell>
But it's doing the _exact_ opposite of what you wanted.
<NathanKell>
running _before_ all radiators rather than after.
<Starwaster>
how do you figure it's running before radiators?
<NathanKell>
Like I said, if you're running after FI, you're _on the next frame_.
<Starwaster>
and that comes out to 'running before radiators' how?
<NathanKell>
because you run, and then all the radiators run
<NathanKell>
and finally, FI sums up the fluxes.
<Starwaster>
it waits until fixedupdate has run on everything
<NathanKell>
Yes.
<NathanKell>
Including FI.
<acharles>
What’s FI?
<Starwaster>
and including the radiators
<NathanKell>
FlightIntegrator
<NathanKell>
the integrator that handles physics (aero, grav, thermo)
<acharles>
I’m learning.
<NathanKell>
:)
<acharles>
NathanKell: I get what you’re saying, now.
<NathanKell>
Yes, including radiators. Which you could run after, but still before FI.
<NathanKell>
acharles: Woot! :)
<NathanKell>
If you're running after FI, then either (a) you're pushing fluxes that won't be applied until after radiators and such run, i.e. when the next FI tick runs, and (b) you won't get the integrator improvements I made wherein FI now uses RK2 during physwarp.
<NathanKell>
(and other goodies)
<NathanKell>
s/, and \(/, or\(/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: If you're running after FI, then either (a) you're pushing fluxes that won't be applied until after radiators and such run, i.e. when the next FI tick runs, or\(b) you won't get the integrator improvements I made wherein FI now uses RK2 during physwarp.
<NathanKell>
(and there may be other unintended issues from running a thermo integrator twice)
<acharles>
Shouldn’t boiloff happen based on the temp of the part from the previous frame, during the phase where fluxes are applied?
<acharles>
That seems to make the most sense?
<Starwaster>
why?
<NathanKell>
I would say yes. That is how integration works.
<NathanKell>
All forces/fluxes/whatever are figured out, and then applied at once.
<NathanKell>
you get serious instability otherwise.
<NathanKell>
(in subtle ways)
<NathanKell>
I'm sure egg|zzz|egg can wax poetic on that.
<acharles>
Because that’s how physics ticks work best, you only use data from the previous game state
<taniwha>
good numeric integration is /hard/
<taniwha>
most game engines get it dead wrong
<taniwha>
#1 mistake: v+= a*t; x+=v*t;
<NathanKell>
PhysX too ^
<NathanKell>
(IIRC)
<NathanKell>
I was sorely tempted to fix that, forcibly, in FI.
<acharles>
taniwha: You shouldn’t use single letter variable names like that.
<taniwha>
you need /either/: x+= v*t + a*t*t/2; v+=a*t; or v+=a*t; x+=v*t - a*t*t/2;
<NathanKell>
v,a,t are common, though I've seen s for displacement as well...
<NathanKell>
taniwha: yeah.
<taniwha>
found that one with quake
<NathanKell>
I just worried what fixing it would do to the other stability improvements we made
<taniwha>
and jumping giving different results based on frame rate
<NathanKell>
yep
<NathanKell>
Unity at least uses fixed frames, there.
<taniwha>
acharles: context trumps all
<NathanKell>
but it's still bad in 20ms ticks.
<taniwha>
actually, if a is constant, then what I gave is exact
<acharles>
taniwha: Still don’t know what they mean. Granted, even if you explained, I probably still wouldn’t :P
<taniwha>
even for 20ks ticks
<NathanKell>
taniwha: Yes. I'm just saying, the error isn't *truly* horrific with 20ms ticks
<NathanKell>
acharles: a is accel, v is velocity, t is time
<acharles>
x?
<taniwha>
position
<NathanKell>
displacement
<NathanKell>
same same
<taniwha>
:)
<taniwha>
position is absolute, displacement is relative
<taniwha>
but the same thing in the long run
<NathanKell>
taniwha: it works both ways in this case tho
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
acharles: The idea is this
<NathanKell>
a stupid physics engine does the following stupid thing:
<NathanKell>
it adds (acceleration * time) to your velocity
<NathanKell>
where time is the frame time
<NathanKell>
then it adds velocity * frame time to your position
<NathanKell>
But that's wrong: the formula, after all, is displacement = original_velocity * time + 1/2 * accel * time^2
<NathanKell>
so you get slightly more movement than you should, every frame.
<acharles>
I figured it out based on what taniwha said… you want to average your accel over the time period when adjusting your position, rather than using your velocity from either the beginning or the end.
<NathanKell>
yep
<NathanKell>
exactly
<NathanKell>
But a physics engine using stupidly-strict Euler is gonna just apply it in one go.
<taniwha>
I did manage to fix quakeforge :)
<NathanKell>
:)
<NathanKell>
And like I said, I was tempted to do so for 1.2
<taniwha>
should have, I think
<acharles>
Isn’t this part of unity’s physics?
<NathanKell>
Another month, and maybe.
<acharles>
or does KSP override that?
<NathanKell>
Nope, PhysX does precisely that wrong thing
<NathanKell>
that's why taniwha brought it up
<acharles>
:/
<acharles>
That seems… ametuerish.
<taniwha>
acharles: most game engine programmers /are/
<acharles>
I mean, I’d get it wrong if doing it from scratch
<acharles>
But I also don’t make millions off selling a game engine :P
<NathanKell>
That said, if you're doing Euler to the hilt...
<NathanKell>
hah, wish egg were here. It might be that going RK2 for position but *not* for other things might be worse.
<acharles>
RK2?
<taniwha>
acharles: game programming is a hive of cargo culture
<NathanKell>
taniwha: s/a h/a wretched h/
<Qboid>
NathanKell thinks taniwha meant to say: acharles: game programming is a wretched hive of cargo culture
<taniwha>
NathanKell: forgot to add that
<NathanKell>
+ scum, + villainy.
<acharles>
taniwha: It doesn’t have to *be* right, it just has to be whatever people accept is right. :P
<taniwha>
and didn't come up with something for villainy
<NathanKell>
acharles: RK2 is using (gah, ferram4 and egg actually know this, I'm just trying to remember) Runge-Kutta's classification of integrators
<NathanKell>
RK1 is Euler (output value = input value + time * change)
<taniwha>
game programming is a wretched hive of politics and cargo cultism
<acharles>
At least everyone on Earth has the same definiton for the units of time. :P
<NathanKell>
So e.g. if you knew what your acceleration at the start of the frame was, and what it was at the end of the frame, your velocity change would be the average of the two accelerations rather than using just the first
<taniwha>
acharles: not everyone on Earth agrees on how to count, let alone tell time
<acharles>
That’s what I originally said about boiloff :P
<NathanKell>
oh, btw, taniwha: With your KSCSwitcher I'm still getting bogus distances for GreatCircleDistance (i.e. part recovery multiplier) which imples lat/lon still aren't set right in SpaceCenter
<acharles>
taniwha: Count?
<acharles>
1, 2, 4, 5, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9?
<taniwha>
NathanKell: something might be messing with it afterwards
<NathanKell>
true
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<acharles>
You guys bring out the troll in me, I hope you don’t mind. :P
<NathanKell|Twitch>
....and that's how the war started
<ferram4>
And the lord spake saying, "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then, shalt thou count to 3, no more, no less."
<acharles>
NathanKell|Twitch: You need to twitch faster or my browser needs to not cache twitch.
<NathanKell|Twitch>
heh
<acharles>
I just wanted to say, “twitch faster"
<lamont>
PEG creates an interesting issue with cheating avionics limits. its entirely possible to overload an upper stage a bit and just let it burn down until avionics comes back. since the thrust angle is continuous across staging it tends to just fly straight anyway.
<NathanKell|Twitch>
and MJ doesn't respect avionics limits anyway
<Raidernick>
see at around 14 seconds for real time footage
<Raidernick>
that rocket uses the ngcl fuel
<Raidernick>
same as early aerobee rocket kick stages
<ProjectThoth>
I'm guessing we don't use this anymore because it's sensitive?
<ProjectThoth>
That's nuts.
<Raidernick>
we don't use it because of an anti missile treaty regarding this type of weapon
<Raidernick>
it was designed to intercept icbm's
<Raidernick>
during their terminal phase
<Raidernick>
so basically right before impact
<ProjectThoth>
The propellant, that is.
<Raidernick>
if i recall the fuel is unstable
<ProjectThoth>
Yeah, that explains it.
<Raidernick>
but i'm not sure that's why they don't use it often anymore
<Raidernick>
it's probably more because of cheaper alternatives
<ProjectThoth>
And the lack of a need to go from 0 to Mach 10 that fast.
<Starwaster>
raidernick, what tank were you using when you were having your issues?
<Raidernick>
blowfish had me test it again with just a proccedural tank filled with hydrogen
<Raidernick>
left it on default
<Raidernick>
at highest timewarp there wwas no boiloff
<Raidernick>
at any other level there was
<Raidernick>
Starwaster, also it's 5:30am here and i was about to go to bed can we discuss the issue later?
<Starwaster>
sure
<egg|zzz|egg>
!tell nathank* it's not a classification tbh; it's a schema for making integrators; it so happens that a buch are by Runge and Kutta themselves, one of which is known as RK4; but there are other 4th order Runge-Kutta integrators
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg|zzz|egg>
!tell NathanK don't confuse Runge and Kutta's integrators with Runge-Kutta integrators :D
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg|zzz|egg>
!tell NathanK* <NathanKell> I would say yes. That is how integration works. <<< well you can have multistep methods too, they're often very nice, though you need to bootstrap
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: did I miss anything? :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
o/ ProjectThoth
<ProjectThoth>
\o yolky one
<egg|zzz|egg>
Iskierka: you might want to set ProjectThoth on fire
<ProjectThoth>
Ouch!
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn taniwha
* Qboid
gives taniwha a port ТП-82
<ProjectThoth>
T-pi-82?
<taniwha>
tp
<egg|zzz|egg>
taniwha: did I miss anything on integration in the backlog?
<egg|zzz|egg>
integgration
<taniwha>
nah
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<egg|zzz|egg>
!seen stratochief
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: I last saw stratochief on [07.07.2017 02:00:50] in #RO saying: "IIRC, KCT stopped tracking recovered parts, but a different mod does that now. I don't recall what it is called"
<egg|zzz|egg>
!tell stratochief there was some talk a while back of adding principia to the recommended list of the RO post, what's the status on that?
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
egg|zzz|egg is now known as egg|saturn_v|egg
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<Starwaster>
lamont so what kind of settings does your PEG work with and are Earth parameters hardcoded? Or will it work with something smaller like 10xKerbol?
<Starwaster>
doesnt seem to want to respect pitch rate settings. It's pitching over really hard at 2 deg/s even if I set it loser
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<Maxsimal>
!tell leudaimon* Ok, I've unlocked the first upper stage proc avionics. Seeing something a bit odd - the 'sweet spot' for cost, where it's lowest for my 3T control amount, is 114% utilization. I thought it was supposed to be somewhere below 100% utilization
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<taniwha>
egg|saturn_v|egg: still there?
<taniwha>
(though it looks like you got some lego)
<schnobs>
im map view, which key focuses on active vessel? (used to be backspace)
<taniwha>
it's not now?
<taniwha>
check key bindings?
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<egg|saturn_v|egg>
taniwha: I'm back, after doing half of the S-IC :D
<taniwha>
:)
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
!wpn taniwha
* Qboid
gives taniwha a minimum triangulation
<taniwha>
how did you deal with .so paths in principia?
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
taniwha: note that most of our interfacing code is actually generated, only a few function sigs are checked in (activate/deactivate recorder)
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
yeah being able to just dllimport is nice
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
you need the mono xml for the cross-platform mapping
<taniwha>
InitGoogleLogging? and people thought ModStats was bad :)
<Thomas>
xD
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<egg|saturn_v|egg>
taniwha: :-p
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
(it is of course just the initalizer for the logging lib we use, logs to local files and stdout/stderr)
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<Maxsimal>
I always have trouble with interstage fairing adapters that just won't decouple properly
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<Pap|AFK>
Maxsimal: I was always having that issue as well, I stopped using them because of it and just went to the SSTU intersgae decoupler instead. It isn't as flexible as the others though
<Maxsimal>
Yeah. But I always think 'Maybe I should try again, they make my rockets look prettier'.
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
yeah the slopes are too steep on the sloped interstages
<ProjectThoth>
I wonder why?
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
he goes with this bricky approach, so constraints on making round slopes
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
had he made a bricky core and used it to sustain a smoother more elaborate tile/panel/etc. surface he could have had more freedom there
<ProjectThoth>
I'm about to make an ass of myself... is that BDB?
<CobaltWolf>
yup!
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<ProjectThoth>
Oh, hey, you're the BDB dev!
<Probus>
Nice CobaltWolf!
<ProjectThoth>
Wow, I am not observant.
<CobaltWolf>
yup haha
<CobaltWolf>
then the new Apollo BPC and then I can push all this crap out...
<CobaltWolf>
since the old one doesn't match the geometry of the new pod. the handles clip out through it
<leudaimon>
nice agena model CobaltWolf
<Qboid>
leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 02:42:41]: "PRs should be against Pap-Techtree now"
<Qboid>
leudaimon: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 10:49:18]: "Ok, I've unlocked the first upper stage proc avionics. Seeing something a bit odd - the 'sweet spot' for cost, where it's lowest for my 3T control amount, is 114% utilization. I thought it was supposed to be somewhere below 100% utilization"
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<leudaimon>
!tell NathanKell* I have made the PR against Pap-Techtree ;)
<Qboid>
leudaimon: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<CobaltWolf>
aight, time to go clean the siding >.< later's y'all
<leudaimon>
hey Maxsimal, I saw this issue with the boosters in the "old" tech tree also... Not sure what is going on, as this is non-configurable. I'm guessing it's related to a base tank cost, that rspakyc should tweak to avoid this issue
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<Maxsimal>
leudaimon: That's odd - the tank cost is that high? Or is it specifically high for avionic tanks?
<leudaimon>
I don't know... I know he used the proc. battery part as a template
<Maxsimal>
Leudaimon: That might be it then. Should be easy to fix
<leudaimon>
yeah
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<Maxsimal>
leudaimon: Can't seem to see in the configst for RO or in PRoc Parts where the cost-per-ton of the eletrical tanks is defined though.
<leudaimon>
I think it's part of realfuels Maxsimal
<Maxsimal>
!tell NathanKell Not sure who this should go to, but we probably need to make a seperate tank time for avionics, right now they're using battery tanks, including battery tank costs for the tank itself. Might be good to switch its own tank type (or maybe one of the low-cost tanks so the avionics tuning itself dominates the cost function)
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<soundnfury>
Pap|AFK: ikr
<soundnfury>
have gone through logs looking at all EXC and ERR, nothing relevant
<Maxsimal>
leudaimon: Yeah that'd be it.
<leudaimon>
Maxsimal, would you change this value in your file and check how it affects things? I'm not in my computer right now
<soundnfury>
Pap|AFK: spotted it
<soundnfury>
missing }
<Pap|AFK>
where at sound?
<Pap|AFK>
Yep, just found it
<Pap|AFK>
Let me push the update
<Maxsimal>
leudaimon: Sorry I'm also not at my machine anymore. I will try it out soon though. However it would change the battery cost as well - I think it must be possible to overide it just for the avionics tank though.
<leudaimon>
hmm are you sure it affects the battery? because otherwise he wouldn't need to change that value in the proc. avionics cfg, right?
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 2 new commits to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ60A
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree fa09f49 pap1723: Merge branch 'Pap-TechTree' of https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0 into Pap-TechTree
<Pap|AFK>
Alright, getting to launch one or 2 rockets today, going for first orbit in test career
* NCommander
appears
<NCommander>
Ugh, stupid power outage
<Pap|AFK>
NCommander: you are not having a good electrical week
Pap|AFK is now known as Pap
<NCommander>
Pap, yeah, we lost power about 10pm last night
<Pap>
Well, fortunately it didn't knock out your non-existent Internet service :)
<NCommander>
.... *+1's that comment*
<NCommander>
ugh
<NCommander>
I can't actually disagree with that
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<Pap>
Alright, orbit acheived!
<Ramh5>
so is there no way of doing the geostationary communication network without 3 reflectron KR-7 per satellite?
<Ramh5>
I just have one but I will have to send another mission cause I also need connection btween satellites
<NCommander>
I'm debating right now how to survive a suborbital flight
<Pap>
Yes Ramh5, but I cannot remember the math now, you can load up on the Communotron 16's to increase the overall range
<Pap>
In a perfect 4 satellite GEO Netowrk, your satellites will be 59.5 Mm away from each other
<Ramh5>
Pap: I need 60 Mm connection btween sats so it seems outrageous, would I need 8 communotron 16 on each?
<Pap>
Let me check Ramh5
<Pap>
Yep Ramh5 you will need 8 on each satellite
<Pap>
Ramh5: there is a contract available for that netowrk
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<Ramh5>
yes I have the contract and I am now on my 3rd launch attempt, fortunately it rewards about 1 million funds and the 4 sat single launch costs 17 000 so I should be fine eventually =D
<Pap>
Yeah, it is a very good contract
<Ramh5>
very fun, I have my upper stage pushing my 4 satellites in a 21 hour period <1 inclination orbit, then each sat pushes up to 24 h period every 2 orbit
<Ramh5>
voila
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<Ramh5>
gotta go, see you later
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<Maxsimal>
leudaimon: Sorry was afk
<leudaimon>
Maxsimal, I managed to test that parameter, by changing it to 5, and nothing happened :(
<Pap>
Why are the verniers on the RD-108 so bad!?
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<leudaimon>
Pap, I've been cursing them for weeks
<leudaimon>
using the RealEngines one, right
<leudaimon>
they have no roll control, iirc because of some issue with the model
<Pap>
No, using the SSTU one, it is just that they are not great in comparison to the thrust of the engines
<leudaimon>
ah, ok
<Pap>
I really need to add Scatterer back into my game, but I will miss my framerates
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<Bornholio>
.poke
<leudaimon>
yeah, it's a blow... but it's hard to play without it after you see the game with scatterer
<NCommander>
Pap, leudaimon: I decided double digit FPS was better than scatterer
<NCommander>
Though generally, ever since I set the frame limiter, I've actually had pretty decent FPS overall
<leudaimon>
yeah, makes sense
<Pap>
So have I NCommanderI just watched NK's Twitch from last night and his images were so nice looking though
<NCommander>
Pap, well aside when launching at night :)
<Bornholio>
minimum ambient light damnit
<Bornholio>
also in 1.3
* NCommander
upgrades R&D to level 2
<leudaimon>
!tell rspakyc the proc avionics parts prices have a problem, the minimum price is always somewhere *not* at minimum utilization. For some configs it's even above 100%. My guess is this is due to the "tank" cost. Is there a way to fix this in the configs?
<Qboid>
leudaimon: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<leudaimon>
!tell rsparkyc the proc avionics parts prices have a problem, the minimum price is always somewhere *not* at minimum utilization. For some configs it's even above 100%. My guess is this is due to the "tank" cost. Is there a way to fix this in the configs?
<Qboid>
leudaimon: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
* NCommander
needs to figure out how to do a suborbital flight safely
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<Bornholio>
ncommander what tech so far
<NCommander>
Bornholio, almost everything up to EDL
<Bornholio>
have edl also?
<Maxsimal>
leudaimon: Shame that didn't work
<NCommander>
Bornholio, researching, but not unlocked. I'm tempted to just run time forward until it does unlock
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<Bornholio>
I do a x-1 compartment with a tank behind it to use as a psuedoheatheilds the spereator/decoupler, air brakes to make sure it goes the right way
<Bornholio>
The tank should be full of something to absorb internal heat so that skin heating is the only mode you worry about
<leudaimon>
Maxsimal, I'm thinking that is a baseprice that is changed by the configs for each proc TL and type
<NCommander>
I don't quite have the rocket tech to put something in a Molniya orbit
<NCommander>
Else I'd do that control
<Maxsimal>
leudaimon: I don't see a base price in your config though. Did you try adjusting the price for the proc battery? Maybe both costs are being applied.
<Bornholio>
Manned SO is one of the most efficient early cash earners, plus science three missions will bump you up fast, spend the money on varius build speed stuffs
<NCommander>
Bornholio, I'm doing the satelite ones right now so I can unlock the later tiers. I can do those and have a net profit
<leudaimon>
I think the price is calculated within the proc avionics code, not in the configs Maxsimal
<Maxsimal>
leudaimon: Ok well, dunno about that then.
<leudaimon>
I sent a !tell to rsparkyc... the code is too complicated for me to try to find where it can be fixed
<Maxsimal>
My suborbital is an A-9 with a Junkers cockpit, with 8 XASR-1's mounted on the nose for boostback. I recover the entire craft, rather than just the cockpit.
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
!wpn NCommander
* Qboid
gives NCommander a HTML snail
<Bornholio>
If you want to lob high it gets hard to recover much
<Maxsimal>
Bornholio: Not really. I lob it to 250km. The boostback provides 1100dv. It's knowing the right time to cut in the boostback that matters though.
<Bornholio>
Ah, i was putting my A-9 ones up to 780km and pad limits did't allow that much extra mass
Pap is now known as Pap|AFK
<Pap|AFK>
o/ all
<leudaimon>
o/ Pap|AFK
<Bornholio>
bye pap
<Maxsimal>
Bornholio: SO contracts never ask for that high of an apogee
<Bornholio>
FAI money is good too
<leudaimon>
why would you lob them up to 780km in a suborbital flight?
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<Maxsimal>
FAI?
<Bornholio>
First Manned mission to x ALtitude/speed/crewsize
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* NCommander
just lobbed his second water satelite up
<NCommander>
Getting better at hitting my orbits with some precision
<NCommander>
*weather
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<Dasm>
ferram4: You broke my plane
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<NCommander>
egg|saturn_v|egg, so I can't set my history length lower than 1.02e03s
<soundnfury>
Pap|AFK: just noticed, early AJ10 config "AJ10-118" has blank techRequired
<soundnfury>
Pap|AFK: also, the Earth Imaging Satellite contract has minPeriapsis instead of minPeA, which makes CC sad
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<Bornholio>
dasm ferram4 does not break planes he makes them fly
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<soundnfury>
Pap|AFK: TL2 booster (basicAvionics) has enabledProceduralW = 320. Should that be 32?
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<leudaimon>
soundnfury, the TL2 booster avionics is a typo indeed
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<Raidernick>
does anyone here have a copy of the launchers pack from late october 2015 to mid 2016?
<Qboid>
NathanKell: egg|zzz|egg left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 09:38:06]: "it's not a classification tbh; it's a schema for making integrators; it so happens that a buch are by Runge and Kutta themselves, one of which is known as RK4; but there are other 4th order Runge-Kutta integrators"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: egg|zzz|egg left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 09:40:10]: "<NathanKell> I would say yes. That is how integration works. <<< well you can have multistep methods too, they're often very nice, though you need to bootstrap"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: leudaimon left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 14:26:15]: "I have made the PR against Pap-Techtree ;)"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 14:55:36]: "Not sure who this should go to, but we probably need to make a seperate tank time for avionics, right now they're using battery tanks, including battery tank costs for the tank itself. Might be good to switch its own tank type (or maybe one of the low-cost tanks so the avionics tuning itself dominates the cost function)"
<NathanKell>
whoah
<NathanKell>
egg|saturn_v|egg: I sit corrected.
<NathanKell>
NCommander: y not wings?
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
!wpn NathanKell
* Qboid
gives NathanKell a late 80s parabolic shoe
<NathanKell>
No, not my secret weakness!
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
:D
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
NathanKell: also, what's the status on adding principia to the recommended list in the RO OP?
<NathanKell>
Hmm. Well, we can't rec it for RP-0 because it ignores building level. For regular RO, IIRC the only biggie at the moment is breaking proc SRBs?
<NathanKell>
and EVA issues I guess, but eh
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
yeah EVA is currently sort of broken, proc SRB are partially broken
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
(if you use them from launch it's fine, if you load them they bork up)
<NathanKell>
so yeah, I can't really rec it then, sorry
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
bugs come and go though
<NathanKell>
EVA sort of broken is...fairly serious :]
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
:-p
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
(though tbh the save you gave me a while back to debug those things had kerbals eggsploding from heat on EVA, so,)
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
at least mine survive, they're just thrown a bit off :-p
<ferram4>
NathanKell, Pap put together a basic repeatable imaging contract. I'm putting together a bunch of early film-return contracts. :D
<NathanKell>
egg|saturn_v|egg: Yeah, and there was an instant hotfix from DRE to fix it :P
<NathanKell>
ferram4: \o/
<ferram4>
I think I can even get it to the point of requiring recovery at a certain location or you fail the contract.
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
NathanKell: well, the proc SRB thing should be fixed in Cayley :-p
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
and the EVA thing will be, it is fixed in current master
<NathanKell>
\o/
<ferram4>
NathanKell, I kinda have the idea that the military contracts should be very lucrative, but have lots of requirements to hit.
<blowfish>
requirements changing after you accept the contract >:)
<ferram4>
I don't think I can do that.
<ferram4>
I think I can get contracts that not only require a single satellite, single recovery, but a single sat with multiple recoveries.
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
NathanKell: well not fixed in current master because phl still hasn't reviewed the 3-line fix actuall :-p
<ferram4>
So Hexagon-like sats are available.
<ferram4>
Also, hilariously low orbits. :D
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Heh :)
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
NathanKell: also you get a cookie if you get the joke in the title of principia#1459
<egg|saturn_v|egg>
NathanKell: principia#1452 if you want to track the EVA bug, principia#1460 for the pSRB-not-from-launch bug
<Qboid>
[#1452] title: Kerbals on EVA spawn several meters away from the vessel | Since Cauchy, kerbals on EVA from a vessel in orbit spawn several meters away from the vessel. Doesn't happen when EVA-ing on ground or in atmosphere. | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1452
<Qboid>
[#1452] title: Kerbals on EVA spawn several meters away from the vessel | Since Cauchy, kerbals on EVA from a vessel in orbit spawn several meters away from the vessel. Doesn't happen when EVA-ing on ground or in atmosphere. | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1452
<Qboid>
NCommander: egg left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 20:48:41]: "FYI I got phl to review principia#1459, so principia#1452 is fixed at current head"
<Starwaster>
blowfish: repro steps
<blowfish>
Starwaster: what commit of RF were you testing on?
<Starwaster>
my local branch. I'm a few commits behind. Unless anything changed with analytic handling then that shouldn't matter
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<blowfish>
okay, well I'm on 6a3f511
<blowfish>
just RF stockalike and dependent mods
<Starwaster>
so stock planets?
<egg>
!tell stratochief also, what happened to RealSolarSystem#91 ?
<Qboid>
egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<blowfish>
Starwaster: yes
<blowfish>
6a3f51 has my most recent changes but last night I was able to reproduce without them too
<stratochief>
egg: no idea. looks to be the same and open, with nobody doing the work to fix it. I haven't had time to open KSP in about a month, I'm definitely not the person to ask about things at the moment. I haven't even had time to follow backchat for a while as well
<Qboid>
stratochief: egg|zzz|egg left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 10:24:53]: "there was some talk a while back of adding principia to the recommended list of the RO post, what's the status on that?"
<Qboid>
stratochief: egg left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 21:27:49]: "also, what happened to RealSolarSystem#91 ?"
<Starwaster>
blowfish will just an orange tank full of hydrogen do it?
<blowfish>
I used the biggest 3.75m tank this time but I saw it with both
<egg>
stratochief: I think last time I asked there was some upcoming release that you said might fix it, but I guess it didn't make the cut
* egg
pets pluto
<stratochief>
I don't think RSS has seen an update since around when 1.2 was released?
<Starwaster>
blowfish and how reproducible is this? Is it only some of the time? random?
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<blowfish>
every time
<egg>
ah no, that was NK Jun 06 03:45:25 <NathanKell> that should be on RSS-Textures tho I think Jun 06 03:45:33 <NathanKell> and we need to roll a new one of that for the updated biomes Jun 06 03:45:38 <NathanKell> so it Might Actually Get Done (tm)
<blowfish>
Starwaster: might be some relevant info in these screenshots. One on the launchpad and one in space
<SlainteMaith>
So, let's say I want to make a two-stage sounding rocket. I incorporate a goodly spin on the first stage and manage to get a -very- nice arc to set me up for my second stage. Which I've attempted to set up with an ullage stage. Which promptly fails to do what it's supposed to.
<SlainteMaith>
How to fix?
<SlainteMaith>
I've seen some folks counter the spin--although I don't know why spin would influence ullage.
<blowfish>
spin shouldn't influence ullage
<blowfish>
you may want to hotstage
<leudaimon>
the easiest is to hot-stage SlainteMaith... activate your second stage before the first one finishes
<blowfish>
(i.e. light next stage engine before even decoupling)
<SlainteMaith>
I'm thinking that might be what has to happen.
<SlainteMaith>
Yep.
<SlainteMaith>
I'll give that a go, if I haven't ruined all my funding trying to get the ullage stage to work. =)
<SlainteMaith>
Thanks, BTW--even though that's something I should have bloody thought of myself. =/
<blowfish>
Starwaster: err, worth noting that with that build you want to do it in space, since that was before my changes
<blowfish>
for what it's worth I just repro'd again on 12.1.0 final
<Starwaster>
Go look at your RFSETTINGS and tell me if either or both globalConductionCompensation or ferociousBoiloff are on
<blowfish>
globalConductionCompensation is on, ferociousBoilOff is off
<blowfish>
I have not touched either of those
<Starwaster>
well the ferocious setting is turned off now by default. And I thought compensation was too.
<Starwaster>
not that I expect either of those to be an issue but I've been developing with them turned off
<blowfish>
I can try with it off, I am just using things as they are committed to git
<blowfish>
Starwaster: that did it
<blowfish>
temps are normal with globalConductionCompensation = false
<SlainteMaith>
Nope. Was 'very stable,' but didn't ignite.
<blowfish>
did it tell you why it didn't ignite? TestFlight, lack of resources?
<Bornholio>
pressure!
<Bornholio>
what engine
<SlainteMaith>
Aerobee.
<Bornholio>
needs at least one pressurized tank or no ignite
<SlainteMaith>
And most likely pressure--it was going at a good clip at hot ignite time.
<blowfish>
yeah, need highly pressurized tanks for that one
<SlainteMaith>
They both are.
<Bornholio>
what is under it for a stage
<SlainteMaith>
i.e., both stages use those engines, and both are highly pressurized. (The bottom stage uses five of them)
<Dasm>
When you get a gravity assist from an object.. it actually takes energy from that object?
<Starwaster>
blowfish try moving line 258 to line 279, recompile and try again (with the globalconductioncompensation on
<Starwaster>
)
<Starwaster>
that's the line that multiplies heatloss by conduction factors
<blowfish>
258-9 on which revision?
<Starwaster>
and you want to move it inside the check against !analyticMode so that it only happens outside of analytic
<Starwaster>
ah crap let me go look at yours
<Bornholio>
are you starting the engine before the first stage runs out?
<SlainteMaith>
I am. Three seconds before, like I do with a Titan.
<Bornholio>
Dasm, gravity losses are energy trasnfered from PE to KE in a direction that does not add to your desired orbit. No lost energy :P
<Bornholio>
gravity assist is two things, Oberth effect if you accelerate there and additiona impulse that yes is lost by the target body. and gained by craft. Manley does a nice one on that
<SlainteMaith>
Vapor in feed lines. Looks like it happens -after- hotstaging, right at sep.
<github>
[RP-0] pianojosh opened pull request #716: Update description of suborbital return contract (Pap-TechTree...update-suborbital-return-description) https://git.io/vQ6Sb
<SlainteMaith>
Here's the craft in case anyone's interested...
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: i couldnt figure out what an engine was while i was at kalamazoo but i finally found it
<Rokker>
its an Apollo PAS
<Rokker>
APS*
<blowfish>
Rokker: as in the RCS units on S-IVB ?
<Rokker>
blowfish: as in the rockety bit on the lunar ascent stage
<NathanKell|Twitch>
LMAE?
<Qboid>
NathanKell|Twitch: egg left a message for you in #RO [08.07.2017 20:48:41]: "FYI I got phl to review principia#1459, so principia#1452 is fixed at current head"
<SlainteMaith>
Forget the issues--I got the rocket to go. I think it was just 'random failure.' (Or user error attributed to random failure)
<soundnfury>
o/ NathanKell
<Rokker>
heroic relics is calling it an ascent propulsion system
<soundnfury>
how goes *?
<NathanKell>
heyo!
<NathanKell>
Rokker: Yeah, it had all sorts of names
<Rokker>
NathanKell: it doesnt have any fuel lines
<Rokker>
so ur able to look down into it
<NathanKell>
it's basically literally the least complex engine they could make, because if it failed, they were boned
<Rokker>
and see the throat
<NathanKell>
\o/
<Bornholio>
I have pright blue sky and some green atmosphere/space interface weirdness using RSSVE/EV/Scatterer any ideas of what to fix, full clean out as do it again?
<SlainteMaith>
Question: Can testflight engine data be acquired via static firings on the ground?
<leudaimon>
nope SlainteMaith
<NathanKell>
that's already taken into account in the starting reliability
<SlainteMaith>
leudaimon Uh. Why not? Seems like that'd be a great starting block to reliability. You know. below 'x' altitude can glean a certain amount of data from them.
<SlainteMaith>
Ahhhh. That makes more sense.
<SlainteMaith>
I still think that might not suck as a RP-0 thing. "Test fire 'x' rocket." Career is grindy as is. Might as well give something historical and easy. =)
<SlainteMaith>
And might help folks like me--with manymany hours of non-realism-overhaul KSP under their belts to get used to the new boss.
<blowfish>
this person did some exciting things with the stock RCS models. Too bad they never got released http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/154658-122-mandatoryrcs-12-1801-reaction-wheels-nerf-sas-rotation-persistence/&do=findComment&comment=2926568
<blowfish>
Just released RF v12.2.1 with some fixes
<blowfish>
NathanKell - mind updating the RF OP when you get a chance
<NathanKell>
blowfish: o7
<NathanKell>
oh crap I was supposed to look at the engine code
<blowfish>
oh, forgot about that...
<NathanKell>
that linked line you poked me with, it shoulda fixed it
<NathanKell>
so, I'll see if I get it with the current release
<blowfish>
that was a while ago though
<NathanKell>
ah
<NathanKell>
OPdated
CobaltWolf has joined #RO
<Dasm>
blowfish: What bugfixes?
<blowfish>
tank temperature was not set correctly initially if you had cryogenic resources
<blowfish>
so you'd get higher boiloff at first
<blowfish>
also negative temperature on tanks during timewarp
<Dasm>
You guys see the quantum computer thing? They cool the system to .0019K to eliminate thermal interference - That's pretty cold
<Starwaster>
hmmm putting up a 1 mill space station using experimental PEG... bad idea :/
<Bornholio>
lol
<Bornholio>
n-stage is much less stable for me than Boost+1 was
<Starwaster>
what do you mean?
<Bornholio>
The dev 6< was pretty much set up booster time and make sure pitch was ok at end (~20) and push go, no it locks up and stops working part way in sometimes have to press the stage calculate button
<Starwaster>
problem I'm having right NOW is that... for some reason,it suddenly goes into 'unguided gravity turn' mode...
<Bornholio>
that too
<Starwaster>
I think there's something about THAT particular craft it does not like
<Starwaster>
but I can't figure out what
<Bornholio>
press recal stages and sometimes it comesback out
<Qboid>
[#1452] title: Kerbals on EVA spawn several meters away from the vessel | Since Cauchy, kerbals on EVA from a vessel in orbit spawn several meters away from the vessel. Doesn't happen when EVA-ing on ground or in atmosphere. | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/1452