<taniwha>
Early Bird is getting a bogus latitude from RSS Space Center
<taniwha>
dunno, and mom said there's no need for me to go
<Pap>
<--- not my place to tell you what to do, and everyone's feelings and thoughts are different, but for me, with my mom, even though it was a long time coming, the services were a good closure for me
<taniwha>
yeah
<taniwha>
well, I had my own private little "service" friday night
<Pap>
That'll work for you then
<taniwha>
went out and got some nice scotch and toasted dad
<taniwha>
a bit of an Irish wake, I guess
<Pap>
That is sometimes the best thing to do
<taniwha>
(didn't get drunk)
<taniwha>
thought of some favorite memories
<Bornholio>
.hugs taniwha
* Pap
sends hugs
<taniwha>
one of them being the two of us crouching by Nana's stove with a bottle of catchup in hand, waiting for the mouse to come out
<Pap>
damnit Bornholio, why you gotta beat me?
<taniwha>
I was 3 at the time
<Bornholio>
I hug everyone, ketchup and mice? hmmm
<Pap>
old school glass catchup container?
<taniwha>
so part of my toast was "I hope you finally catch that mouse" :)
<taniwha>
Pap: I don't remember
<taniwha>
Pap: also, dad's death was the closure, after 5 weeks of knowing he'd go any time soon
<taniwha>
and 19 years of wondering when
<taniwha>
(thyroid cancer)
<Pap>
Yeah, I was very young with my mom, so as an older person with an understanding of emotions, it would have been a different experience
<taniwha>
I did go to Nana's funeral, though
<xShadowx>
when i go, stick me in a rocket and drink some fine booze as you hit the button to send me off to space :|
<xShadowx>
on a more practical note for space lovers, a couple of companies exist now thatll send your ashes up o.O
<Bornholio>
i don't want ashes on my space lovers
<Pap>
For me, it is donate my body to science, do not spend a dime on a wake/funeral, go on a trip to enjoy yourselves
<xShadowx>
$10,000 for ashes to space really doesnt seem too bad compared to the other pricey earthly options
<taniwha>
NathanKell|Twitch: any clue where that -1.74 could be coming from?
<taniwha>
it's not stock KSC's latitude
<NathanKell|Twitch>
nope
<NathanKell|Twitch>
I suggest you get spacecenter's transform's position and compute yourself
<NathanKell|Twitch>
maybe the stored lat/long are borked
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
wait
<NathanKell>
taniwha: Where do you actually use lat?
<NathanKell>
ah, day length
<NathanKell>
yeah, try computing lat yourself from the transform
<acharles>
NathanKell: I find the distinction between an R7 without boosters and an R7 booster with an upper stage to be an amusing indication that you have so much knowledge and context that you won’t make sense to a lay person. Granted, I have the same issue with technology. It’d be like me trying to explain an i7 as an i5 with hyperthreading.
<NathanKell>
The core is about 2x as big as the booster tho, no?
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<acharles>
:P
<acharles>
In terms of length?
<NathanKell>
In terms of everything
<NathanKell>
43kg for the booster, 95kg for the core
<NathanKell>
(for the first one I found)
<acharles>
I suppose?
<NathanKell>
s/kg/tonnes/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: 43tonnes for the booster, 95kg for the core
<NathanKell>
s/kg/tonnes/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: 43tonnes for the booster, 95kg for the core
<NathanKell>
acharles: But, like, you get how a rocket being twice as heavy makes it rather different, yeah?
<acharles>
s/kg/tonnes/g
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<Qboid>
acharles meant to say: Is that the ocean in the bactonnesround?
<taniwha>
NathanKell: I might have to, but I really want to know the source
<NathanKell>
ah, right, forgot the g
<acharles>
Qboid: What?
<NathanKell>
taniwha: KSCSwitcher not forcing the latitude to update maybe?
<taniwha>
do you have that installed
<taniwha>
?
<NathanKell>
yes
<acharles>
NathanKell: Yeah.
<acharles>
I get the distinction you were trying to make, mostly.
<Pap>
NathanKell: any important news or thoughts from the stream today?
<NathanKell>
Yeah. Don't think in terms of looks. :) Think in terms of capability, and burn times / stage use
<Pap>
Should I change the ComSatBus and WeatherSatBus to 1 unit equals 1 kg just for ease of planning?
<Pap>
And to increase the difficulty
<NathanKell>
Pap: I noticed that Basic Capsules requires new-stability rather than old-stability. I think the equivalent in the new tree would be Flight Control?
<NathanKell>
The thing that gives RCS TL1
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<acharles>
NathanKell: Yeah, that would make sense if I were trying to build one with a goal in mind. I went by looks because I remember what a Soyuz 2.1v looks like and the thing you built looked similar. :P
<Pap>
ah, I should check that
<NathanKell>
RCS TL2 is basically Gemini-era RCS
<NathanKell>
The other thing I noticed is that IMO the comms bits are too expensive. You should be able to get Venus-range comms when you unlock Staged Combustion IMO, and lunar comms a bit earlier as well
<taniwha>
getting 28.6 degrees here (no switcher)
<NathanKell>
taniwha: Then it must be KSCSwitcher somehow?
<NathanKell>
Pap: The comms nodes just feel a bit expensive to me
<taniwha>
how much do I need to install to test that?
<NathanKell>
(or a bit too late, which might be the same thing)
<NathanKell>
taniwha: Itself, and RSS
<taniwha>
cool, I'll test
<NathanKell>
note that I have not switched my launch site
<NathanKell>
so don't do that yourself either to start
<NathanKell>
just have it installed
<acharles>
NathanKell: My higher level point however, is that if you want content to be accessible, you have to find a way to explain it without requiring that the viewer know the difference between a Thor and an R7. Or whatever other historical craft. Though, this obviously doesn’t matter if accessibility isn’t a goal.
<taniwha>
yeah
<NathanKell>
Pap: I'm also wondering if maybe the KR-7 should move back to the Lunar Comms node?
<NathanKell>
acharles: Yeah. In my tutorial series I made some effort to do that. In these streams it's just me playing KSP and anyone who wants can watch :)
<acharles>
And well, it’s amusing to know how other people feel when I talk to them, since I probably do the same things.
<NathanKell>
When we release the new tree etc etc I'll do another tutorial campaign and try very hard to be accessible :)
<acharles>
NathanKell: I know. Not complaining. I just find it amusing.
<NathanKell>
^_^
<acharles>
Do the R7 core stage and boosters use the same engines?
<NathanKell>
ok, time to head off for dinner, see y'all later!
<acharles>
Have fun.
<NathanKell>
acharles: Nope, that was the part blowfish and I were talking about
<NathanKell>
the distinction between RD-107 (booster) and RD-108 (core)
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AFK
<taniwha>
gah, finding it
<Pap>
acharles: it was / is confusing to me that the higher number engine (108) is the core and the 107 is the booster, but I don't know why
<acharles>
Pap: Haha
<taniwha>
NathanKell|AFK: jbengtson on github?
<acharles>
That’s not confusing to me.
<acharles>
But that’s because I don’t have an expectation.
<acharles>
Altas used LR-105 core and LR-89 booster
<acharles>
which, is the same as the Soviet setup in terms of raw numbers. :P
<Pap>
True, it is probably becuase every Soviet engine is an RD-xxx and I was confused by that
<NathanKell|AFK>
taniwha no it's been forked, check ckan metadata for current. I think ksp-ro
<taniwha>
(google was not very helpful)
<taniwha>
found it by checking forks on his repo
<blowfish>
Why is Mechjeb not throttling up when I stage my engines on the launch pad?
<blowfish>
(probably simple answer, just haven't done a launch in a while)
<Bornholio>
didn't engage autopilot
<blowfish>
no, I did
<Bornholio>
limit thrust to low, no minimum thrust
<blowfish>
I don't have the throttle limiters enabled
<taniwha>
NathanKell|AFK: bingo
<Pap>
blowfish do you have comms connectivitiy?
<taniwha>
bug in KSC switcher
<blowfish>
looks like
<blowfish>
I can do it fine if I do it manually
<blowfish>
oh, I'm launching into plane so it wants to fire the first stage on its own then it will throttle up
<blowfish>
if I fire before it's ready it won't work
<Rokker>
Bornholio: I'll never not resent the thunderbirds
<Rokker>
because of them I had to look forward to an F-18 at the Dayton air show
<Rokker>
AN F-18
<Rokker>
a commie plane
<taniwha>
oh, dear, KSCSwitcher is terribly complex and will take me forever to understand. A whopping 860 lines
<Rokker>
taniwha: oh dear
<acharles>
860 lines of code?
<acharles>
That’s not too bad
<Rokker>
acharles: no
<Rokker>
860 lines of cocaine
<taniwha>
acharles: 'twas sarcasm
<Rokker>
:P
<Bornholio>
Rokker you need sedatives not coke
<taniwha>
just EL's recipe system is 1078 lines
<Rokker>
Bornholio: well then I'm prescribed the wrong thing
<taniwha>
844 for the actual build logic
<Rokker>
taniwha: you gotta get more efficient then
<Rokker>
:P
<acharles>
EL?
<taniwha>
extraplanetary launchpads
<acharles>
Ah, is that your mod?
<taniwha>
yeah
<acharles>
Cool, I didn’t know
<acharles>
Actually, I think the only thing I knew about you is that NK called you Bill.
<taniwha>
well, it is my name :)
<acharles>
It’s more likely to be the shortened form of your name, but some people actually have Bill as a name :P
<taniwha>
well, technically, true, but...
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<taniwha>
actually, if you go by what most people call me, I suspect my name actually is taniwha
<Pap>
Is that tah-knee-wah?
<taniwha>
fah
<acharles>
tah-knee-fah?
<taniwha>
yeah
<taniwha>
old-style wh
<acharles>
I thought it was tah-knee-hwa
<Pap>
huh, learn something new everyday
<taniwha>
if you mean like old-style white and whale, then yeah
<taniwha>
using f instead of w will make life a little easier in NZ ("I want to go to Kaifarafara" is more likely to get you there than saying "Kaiwarawara", but using the old wh will make you sound like a pro:)
<taniwha>
er, misplaced )
<taniwha>
Pap: Maori
<Pap>
Ah, very ininteresting culture the Maori
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<acharles>
That word reminds me of humuhumunukunukuapuaa
<acharles>
I think that’s the spelling.
<acharles>
I mostly know how to pronounce it. It’s Hawaiian.
<Pap>
It is the state fish of Hawaii
<acharles>
It is.
<taniwha>
essentially the same language
<Pap>
How did the beginning of your career go yesterday acharles?
<acharles>
Ok.
<acharles>
I sort of got stuck on the design for my first satellite
<acharles>
I think that avionics being more distant makes it harder, but perhaps I’m just missing something.
<acharles>
I did start upgrading the pad on the very first day, however
<acharles>
Overall, it’s too early to tell, but it seems like there’s more progression.
<acharles>
I’ll probably start over with NK’s science/build rate changes, since that will make things feel different.
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* xShadowx
always thought it was wa like water
<xShadowx>
the f sound with no f is confusing :|
<taniwha>
th sh zh wh gh
<taniwha>
(though ghost throws that one out)
<Bornholio>
pokes pap , are my icons passible?
<Pap>
Did you try them in game Bornholio?
<Bornholio>
one so far, i'm setting up a tree right now
<Pap>
I'll do it
<Pap>
It'll take me almost no time at all
<Pap>
Then we can see if you get voted off the island or if you can stay :)
<Bornholio>
trying to find a proper RD-0410 for Basic Nuclear Propulsion (the Russian NTr)
<Bornholio>
let me update the readme with them and add a color pis to see if you want to do it
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<xShadowx>
taniwha: thats 2 letters making a new sound beyond what the base 26 make, gh you can claim h is silent, like the k in knife, but wh making a sound thats neither w nor h, but instead an f that already exists, makes it weird
<taniwha>
xShadowx: it is /not/ an f
<xShadowx>
o.O
<taniwha>
not when pronounced properly
<xShadowx>
you said fah
<taniwha>
f is just an easy approximation
<taniwha>
I did say that old-style wh is more correct
<acharles>
Lots of languages have phonemes that don’t exist in English.
<acharles>
Mostly various soft consonants, in my experience.
<acharles>
Not that I know how to pronounce them either.
<taniwha>
wh does exist in English, but it is dying out
<acharles>
monochrome with sharp edges is generally better for recognizability.
<Bornholio>
I like the grey, but color is okay. thats a coin flip. lots of work to color them though
<acharles>
‘sharp edges’ isn’t the best way to explain it.
<acharles>
Simple icons are better than complex multicolor ones.
<taniwha>
Pap: keep in mind colorblindness
<taniwha>
so color is ok for making it look nice, but don't rely on it for information
<acharles>
That’s why all of the icons in Eve Online are a single color. Which color they are depends on the theme, but it’s alway s just one color.
<taniwha>
that too
<Pap>
Alright, on that note, I am going to poke around and see if I can make the silhouetted icons that we are using right now have more detail. That is what is lacking on many of them.
<Pap>
To clarify, leave them in the gray that they are, but see if more detail works
<Bornholio>
sounds like work... have fun
<Bornholio>
and good night all
Bornholio is now known as Born|toSleep
<UmbralRaptor>
Color for info is okay, as long as the information is also conveyed in a non-color manner.
<UmbralRaptor>
eg: given that the icons show various different glyphs for what they do already, giving them slight theme based tints should be safe.
<taniwha>
!tell NathanKell* I think I've found the problem: it may be that KSCSwitcher is operating too early
<Qboid>
taniwha: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<acharles>
It talks about form being more important to learning for humans than color.
* xShadowx
gave in and bought lego saturn
NathanKell|AFK is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: taniwha left a message for you in #RO [26.06.2017 03:55:37]: "I think I've found the problem: it may be that KSCSwitcher is operating too early"
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Pap: For the Todo list, we need to go through and regularize comm transmission speed and cost for the antennas
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NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell|AWAY
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ39u
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree 97825a8 NathanKell: Drop R&D facility research rate multiplier from 0.5 a tier to 0.25 a tier since we added way more tiers.
<NathanKell|AWAY>
lamont: which archive?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I assume the zip?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
What settings should I set?
<lamont>
either the zip or the tarball
<lamont>
so down at the bottom of the Ascent Guidance menu is the dropdown to select the style of ascent path
<NathanKell|AWAY>
...I know I'm away but I gotta try this :]
<lamont>
then i’ve been using 10s pitch start, 0.75 deg/s rate, 55 pitch end (which should be the default) for a 1.4TWR 4200dV booster
<lamont>
“pitch adjustment” is for when Agathorn trolls you, its not just ending pitch but its pitch bias throughout the gravity turn
<lamont>
insane delta-V values, fixed time of “120” and “NaN” for pitch and stuff is normal before the algorithm starts to converge
<lamont>
right now it has no idea about staging and if it starts converging while the booster is operational then it’ll assume your booster will fire to orbit, which is amusing, but that’s what the “disable PEG guidance” button is for — its not very smart right now
<NathanKell|AWAY>
:D
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Gonna try it on the Curlew (R-7)
<lamont>
persistence in the menus is all kinda hosed so you have to relselect it all the time that’s “known bug”
<NathanKell|AWAY>
ok
<lamont>
“path is null!!!!1!!11!!!111eleven” is also known bug, goes away when you select the ascent style from the dropdown
<lamont>
i got lost in a twisty maze of mechjeb computer modules trying to sequence their intialization properly...
<NathanKell|AWAY>
:D
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Ok. So I set the turn params, set orbit alt for a circ orbit, hit engage?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Do I disable it until booster sep?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
or do I leave it enabled so it does time/pitch?
<lamont>
heh, i don’t know =)
<lamont>
i’ve been leaving it enabled because its amusing...
<NathanKell|AWAY>
ok
<lamont>
but if it takes over booster guidance, you probably want to disable it… or what what it does… its kind of funny…
<lamont>
s/what what/watch what/
<Qboid>
lamont meant to say: but if it takes over booster guidance, you probably want to disable it… or watch what it does… its kind of funny…
<NathanKell|AWAY>
it went from pitch program to unguided grav turn
<lamont>
yep
<lamont>
that’s normal
<NathanKell|AWAY>
But I want it to follow pitch program...
<lamont>
longer pitch end?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
wait what does pitch end mean then?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I thought it meant the pitch at which things end (for me, 36.5deg)
<lamont>
no its in seconds
<NathanKell|AWAY>
....oh
<NathanKell|AWAY>
does it include start?
<lamont>
yeah, i wasn’t sure about that, i thought you meant ending time, rather than ending angle
<NathanKell|AWAY>
or is it post start?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Yeah, ending time is better
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I was just confused
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Would be nice to display ending angle
<lamont>
uh, so end - start is duration
<NathanKell|AWAY>
cool
<lamont>
so 10s to 70s with 0.5 d/s would be 30 degrees
<NathanKell|AWAY>
ok
<NathanKell|AWAY>
working!
<lamont>
=)
<NathanKell|AWAY>
definitely need a way to guesstimate pitch program tho
<NathanKell|AWAY>
it took me a few tries to get even halfway reasonable
<lamont>
i think its time for me to migrate towards bed, have fun w/that — its still buggy
<lamont>
yeah
<NathanKell|AWAY>
me too tbh
<lamont>
i tried 12s / 72s / 0.5d/s which is what i found for Mercury-Atlas and that pushed my apoapsis up to 300km just from the booster stage (1.4-ish SLT)
<NathanKell|AWAY>
it's 10min before hard shutoff :D
<NathanKell|AWAY>
for R-7 I did 10, 0.6, 127 (full boost phase)
<lamont>
i tried looking around for the pitch program for a F9FT but couldn’t find it
<NathanKell|AWAY>
well, first 0.5 and that was too little, then 0.75 and that was too much, 0.6 looks good
<NathanKell|AWAY>
um, it's overshooting Ap already
<NathanKell|AWAY>
ah, here's the pitchdown
<lamont>
if the booster overshoots Ap then you need more aggressive pitch program
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Uh. 228x146
<NathanKell|AWAY>
for a 185x185
<NathanKell|AWAY>
no, not booster overshooting
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I mean upper
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Ap at sep was like 130 I think
<lamont>
oh that’s odd
<xShadowx>
NathanKell|AWAY: did you mention something about lego on desk at work?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I'll upload the craft if you like
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I started with 15,0.75,127 but switched the 0.75 to 0.6 at about 1200m/s
<NathanKell|AWAY>
185km orbit desired
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Another ask would be if you could specify both Ap and Pe (so I could have it insert to 185x4500, e.g.)
<NathanKell|AWAY>
because we can't relight
<lamont>
oh yeah, i started noodling about that tonight
<NathanKell|AWAY>
awesome
<NathanKell|AWAY>
ok, I'm for bed o/
<lamont>
i have a buch of “FIXME: assumes circular” comments
<NathanKell|AWAY>
hehe
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I think what might have done it was the boost was too low so the upper had to burn high pitch for a while, but PEG should have done that properly
<lamont>
those should actually be pretty easy to solve in the algorithm i think UX will almost be the hardest part
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Oh, hang on
<NathanKell|AWAY>
what do you assume about control authority
<NathanKell|AWAY>
It might assume serious TVC and the R-7 ain't got it
<NathanKell|AWAY>
But still, that just means it corrects later...
<NathanKell|AWAY>
or should
<lamont>
yeah it should?
<lamont>
but yeah its unconstrained with rate of pitch
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I'm not so worried about that, more about it burning off-desired
<NathanKell|AWAY>
due to slow correction
<NathanKell|AWAY>
but that really should come out in the wash
<lamont>
well it should converge yeah
<lamont>
“locked or invalid parts"
<lamont>
i must be missing a mod, this is sandbox
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Do you have SSTU and RealEngines?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Needs the SSTU RD-108 and the RealEngines RD-107 (and S5.92 as RD-0105)
<NathanKell|AWAY>
blowfish: that's a thought. Ask Shadowmage to make an RD-0105/9 :)
<lamont>
missing RO-RealEngines and RO.EarlyTinySolarPanel
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Ah, you need to be on Pap's branch of RO and RP-0, and you need RealEngines
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Because the engine configs it uses are only there, even if you removed the solar panels
<lamont>
installed realengines, but i think i need to play around with this tomorrow...
<NathanKell|AWAY>
and I'd replace the RD-107 with the SSTU one, but that still leaves the RD-0105
<Rokker>
Bornholio: well, at least i got to saw one f-16 flying this week
<Qboid>
Rokker: Bornholio left a message for you in #RO [26.06.2017 13:33:18]: "very nice "Bomber' what Bones whould have been."
<Rokker>
see*
<taniwha>
I can't speak for the RF side of things, but I've updated the MFT code for 1.3
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<Pap>
o/
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<taniwha>
hi, pap
<CobaltWolf>
o/
<taniwha>
MFT updated to 1.3, so RF shouldn't be far behind
<taniwha>
hi, CobaltWolf
<taniwha>
I'm off to bed
<taniwha>
goodnight
<Starwaster>
lamont did you buy that?
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<stratochief_>
!tell NathanKell* the Reddit RSS page should absolutely have your "How To Ask For Help" forum page stickied
<Qboid>
stratochief_: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
stratochief_ is now known as stratochief
<CobaltWolf>
so any feelings on Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager?
<Pap>
Yes stratochief that is a great idea
<Pap>
CobaltWolf it is a vast improvement over BARIS graphically (obviously), but it is still lacking in some way that I cannot put my finger on
<CobaltWolf>
yeah, on the discord a few people grabbed it to fool around with multiplayer
<stratochief>
Pap: well, baris kept a cool chart/table tracking wins, and who was in what position for various accomplishments
<stratochief>
and BARIS had the neat CIA/spy on your opponents thing, but it was so innacurate I basically just ignored it
<CobaltWolf>
lol
regex has joined #RO
<Pap>
CobaltWolf: Tell your Discord people that Stellar Trail from Agathorn is going to put BARIS and BASPM to shame
<CobaltWolf>
yeah we know :P
blowfish has joined #RO
<blowfish>
taniwha: I already had a 1.3 branch for MFS >:(
<stratochief>
and whatever NathanKell is working on might be better too. really who knows. for all I know, they are working on a VR tank driver simulator that locks you in a hotbox filled with angry speakers :P
<Pap>
stratochief: they were teasing me yesterday about it. And if you look at Valve's hiring history of mod teams, they have pretty much kept them in their realm
<stratochief>
so, probably not a clicker browser game that is 95% DLC?
<Pap>
But you are right in the fact that we don't know at all!
<Bornholio>
For NK's game I imagine its a game based on those weird japanese macho BL. You play the main protaganist as a Rotten girl that sprays streams of blood out her nose every time she sees macho and uses that to defeat bad guys.
<Bornholio>
is that wrong?
<stratochief>
Bornholio: lol. possibly not far off. I mean, sprays of blood could be propulsive, if they believe in themselves
<stratochief>
I wonder if the companies working methalox engines keep the rotten egg smell in the natural gas for safety reasons, or if as a propellant it will be silent but deadly?
<Bornholio>
SBD for the win!
<stratochief>
was it in Ignition! where they talked about the method for detecting of there were any leaks in a deadly hypergol? they just had 'a guy' with sensitive smell, they had him sniff around the payload right before launch, and he gaves the thumbs up so they went ahead for a successful launch
<Bornholio>
Bulk users don't add very much, and its garlic aromatic.
<stratochief>
"if the rocket smells like stratochief's kitchen, run for the hills!"
<Bornholio>
I would think that the aromatic would not handle cryotemps very well
<Bornholio>
"No. LNG, which is liquefied natural gas, when taken directly from the ground is odorless. Local gas companies add mercaptan, which smells like rotten eggs, to natural gas to make leaks easy to smell. Natural gas is also colorless, but when mixed with the right amount of air and ignited, natural gas burns with a clean, blue flame. In fact, it is one of the cleanest burning fuels. It not only produces heat, but carbon dioxide and water vapor. "
<stratochief>
hydrogen fires burn so hot or clean, they can be invisible, which is a terrifying thing to potentially walk into when near a rocket
<stratochief>
Bornholio: right. I'm curious if they will add something to make leaks more easily detectable, for safety reasons. they might find an oderant that handles cryo-temps, but who knows at this point I suppose.
<acc>
heya guys
<stratochief>
o/ acc
<acc>
stratochief: wie geht es dir? :D
<Bornholio>
I would think they are going to add a borate and maybe a flame colorant, but i can't imagine a 100K aromatic that wouldn't gunk up
<stratochief>
Gut, danke
<acc>
:)
<stratochief>
my german continues to slowly improve, but what I really need to do is to speak it our loud with people more regularly, and practice some congugation tables
<acc>
I like to cook with gas
<acc>
yeah
<acc>
had the same with english
<stratochief>
I've never had a natural gas cooking stove, unfortunately
<acc>
me neither, but on some vacations in houses. it's just perfect
<acc>
instant hot
<acc>
great to bake things
<stratochief>
if germany/europe were to start fracking, or get into bio-methane biomass more seriously, they could aggressively end their coal dependance. shame about the lack of easily accessible natural gas in the EU
<acc>
yeah. and I don't like fracking. all that issues that come with it#
<acc>
but we have some biogas (methane)
<regex>
Well, there's always Gasprom
<regex>
or is it Gazprom?
<acc>
haha, exactly
<acc>
one of our former cancelors made good deals with them
<Bornholio>
There is a Troll in the North Sea
<acc>
I mean good deals for him
<acc>
:>
<stratochief>
acc: ehh, fracking is mostly alright. just need a neutral third party/government group to oversee. even in the US where they are sloppy about it, they don't have too much trouble
<stratochief>
gazprom is russia? russia is the evil empire invading eastern europe. so, no gazprom gaz
<acc>
duno, I heard pretty catastrophic stories over there
<acc>
yeah, but that cancelur schröder made some pipeline deals
<acc>
cancelor
<stratochief>
acc: ehh, gotta keep an eye on the statistics, not just individual stories. sure, it set some people's home water on fire, but few and far between, and even that was pretty avoidable if they had decent regulation/oversight
<acc>
end of his story, he's now working for gasprom
<acc>
also one of the german green party (haha)
rsparkyc has joined #RO
<acc>
well, politics, grazy shit.however, we're pretty good with renewable
<stratochief>
acc: consequences of fracking are both less in the short and longterm compared to coal. same reason I support nuclear over coal, really.
<acc>
ok, compared, maybe
<Rokker>
fracking ain't that bad
<acc>
coal and oil is the worst stuff, that's true
<Rokker>
comparatively
<Rokker>
and I think some of the complaints are overblown
<blowfish>
if more natural gas accelerates coal's slow natural death then it might be worth it
<stratochief>
acc: germany burns gobs of coal. is there a planned second wave of energiewende?
<regex>
Man, I remember kids talking about shooting nuclear waste into the sun back in the '80's and the more I know about rockets the more utterly naive that sounds.
<acc>
but, to be honest, I've seen burning rivers and stuff like that. my general confidence in fracking is very low
<stratochief>
regex: there are still people that talk about that :S idiots abound even to this day
<acc>
it can't be good to pump weird toxic chemicals into the ground
<regex>
acc, Gazprom it is, then
<acc>
it just can't heh
<acc>
yeah, probably
<stratochief>
regex: nah, coal all the way, baby
<regex>
we're going to get those jobs back
<blowfish>
coal powered rockets?
<acc>
but germany has also good deals with the saudis
<Rokker>
can't be good to tear down an entire mountain just to see radioactive dust and a fuckin of CO2 into the air, either acc
<Rokker>
spew*
<acc>
we deliver weapons, they deliver oil
<regex>
Coal a shit
<Rokker>
fucking ton*
<stratochief>
acc: but... geology comes in layers. those weird chemicals can confidently be seperate from the ground water, if sufficient study is done, and not just fracking every potential site as cheaply, quickly as possible.
<acc>
Rokker: yeah, I agree, but fracking isn't much better. I think bio methane is ok, until better technologies evolve, for renewable and decentraliced, self suistaining housings
<stratochief>
geology and geophysics are great sciences. worth studying a bit. useful for understanding geothermal, oil & gas, nuclear waste disposal, lots of things
<acc>
yeah, but still risky. we know we're just on a thin crust and it moves
<Rokker>
acc: i think with the right regulations and precautions in place, fracking can be great
<acc>
of course, true
<Rokker>
wait
<Rokker>
did i say regulations
<regex>
They make sense
<Rokker>
plz forgive me reagan
<stratochief>
yeah, PassiveHaus is a good standard, route to energy independance
<acc>
I'm just saying minimize the risks as much as possible, and I don't see fracking in that plan. just my opinion :)
<acc>
as example, in my town, we have tons of houses with solar
<stratochief>
acc: right, but the current risk minimization pathway burns so much damn coal, I don't see that as low risk or low impact either. how long till germany is below 50% of today's coal consumption?
<acc>
and that's in a lot of places in germany. I think over time that energy problem can be solved with the help of each house and other renewable energy
<acc>
true
<stratochief>
solar is useless at night, and very weak in germany in the winter. I do hope they have more energiewende growth in the next 5 years planned
<acc>
coal and oil has to go as soon as possible
<acc>
I hopse so too
<Bornholio>
so germany shut down nuclear and increased coal...
<acc>
pretty much
<acc>
insane politics everywhere heh
<stratochief>
Bornholio: increased for a short while, now back to around pre-nuclear levels. sadly, they could have kept nuclear 5-20 more years (the actual lifetime of those reactors) and had a win-win and killed most coal
<Rokker>
Bornholio: germany has done a lot of disagreeable shit as far as im concerned
<stratochief>
*pre-nuclear shutdown levels
<acc>
of course that got sold as success with al kinds of shiny green numbers
<acc>
all
* Rokker
stares at heiko maas
<Rokker>
rip germany
<acc>
that guy...
<Rokker>
acc: you ever see the interview where he brought his publicist with him to clap for him
<stratochief>
Rokker: "please clap" Jeb :P
<acc>
yeah, that's one of the biggest assholes alive. and always smiles. could punsh thzat guy all day heh
<acc>
it's just so bad what he destroied in his time in charge
* stratochief
slows german speach to 75%, so he can understand it somewhat
<Rokker>
acc: i like his campaign to silence peoples right to speak
<acc>
absolutely
<Rokker>
stratochief: what he is saying isnt important
<Rokker>
its the fact that hes relying on his publicist to clap since the audience wont
<acc>
since a few days the police is allowed to hack computers
<acc>
for like everything
<Rokker>
honestly if i lived in germany, id be considering moving
<stratochief>
Rokker: say that directly into your NSA webcam or smartphone, please. so your country knows that you are loyal
<acc>
well, I'm more considering prepairing for resistance
<Bornholio>
as if DMCA and patroit act +NSA is better
<acc>
that's a right in our constituion, after WWII
<acc>
in caste shit goes down anti-democratic the citizens are alowed to use force to stop it, so deutsches reich will never happen again
<acc>
s/caste/case/
<Qboid>
acc meant to say: in case shit goes down anti-democratic the citizens are alowed to use force to stop it, so deutsches reich will never happen again
<Rokker>
Bornholio: as awful as losing our right to privacy is, at least we still can speak freely
<acc>
I hope it isn't going that way, I don't want that history repeats
<acc>
but if it happens, I'll not flee
<Bornholio>
unless its clasified as hate speech. as classified byyour ability to pay lawyers. or it offends a corporation
<Rokker>
hate speech isnt illegal in america
<acc>
yeah, freedom in USA is much like in germany. theoretical there, but practical very limited
<Rokker>
incitement to violence is
<Bornholio>
Points at scientology
<Rokker>
but simple hate speech is a god given right
<acc>
heh
<Rokker>
Bornholio: how many lawsuits have they won
<Bornholio>
they don''t have to win
<Bornholio>
and plenty even against the IRS
<stratochief>
it just takes regular and known legal threats to chill speech substantially
<acc>
in praxis the guy with more money wins that stuff, right? ;)
<blowfish>
not always but money certainly gives an advantage
<stratochief>
don't have to win, just have to bankrupt the other guy
<Rokker>
anyways, hate speech as a whole is legal in america
<Bornholio>
well in any case thats not rockets, hey house is looking at Space again oh wait its ABM in space hello mr. Reagan.
<Rokker>
not so much in germany, as i understand it
<Rokker>
which, as awful as hate speech is, i dont consider to be great
<Rokker>
because people can push the definition of what is considered hate speech in any direction they wish
<acc>
Rokker: obviously, because trump is president :D
<stratochief>
hate opinion should be legal IMO, but when it is so easily spread by lazy media and social media, and purposely distorted by the speaker as if it is fact, the whole debate about what you have the right to say becomes much more grey IMO
<blowfish>
the beauty of free speech isn't in anyone's ability to say what they want, it's in everyone else's ability to ignore it
<Rokker>
blowfish: aye
<Pap>
^^ blowfish nailed it
<acc>
aye
<Pap>
The problem with limiting free speech at all is who gets to decide what kinds of free speech gets limited?
<stratochief>
I get to be the one who disagrees. as a studier of psychology, I know that we don't actually ignore things we think we're ignoring. I recommend a reading of "Thinking Fast and Slow"
<Pap>
And back to rockets, did you see Bornholio's beautiful nuclear rockets?
<acc>
exactly pap. at that point hings will be fuckd, because someone in charge can dictate wat's right and not
<stratochief>
Pap: I did not, no.
<acc>
sorry, very bad english today
<Rokker>
Pap: did i link you some of the shit i saw at the air show?
<Rokker>
Pap: also how well versed on ww2 naval planes are you
<Pap>
Dont think so Rokker
<stratochief>
giving an airplane a bellybutton just seems inefficient
<blowfish>
stratochief: but if you silence and prosecute then doesn't that to an extent give some legitimacy to those people that they wouldn't have otherwise? E.g. China's silencing of dissidents makes news in other parts of the world
<Pap>
I know some about the most used bombers and fighters Rokker
<blowfish>
and would probably make news in china if they didn't restrict it
<Rokker>
Pap: nothing too in depth?
<Pap>
Rokker: not that I rememeber well enough, I've been away from reading and learning about WWII stuff for almost 8 years now :( sadly
<Rokker>
cause im randomly wondering what the difference between the AD-1, AD-2, ... AD-n are
<stratochief>
blowfish: I'm not saying that silence or government prosecution is the correct balance either. perhaps, turning the volume down (limitted spread of certain speech by media, unless presented as debate) or ensuring it is contextualized when presented in media
<stratochief>
blowfish: if people just hear hate speech again and again without discussion or opposing views presented, they become comfortable with it, it enters your subconsious as fine and normal
<Bornholio>
" If the provision makes it into law, the Air Force would be required to set up the new corps by Jan. 1, 2019"
<Bornholio>
Pap are they in?
<blowfish>
the same can be said of any political viewpoint I think
<stratochief>
also, broadcasting hate speech through mass media and social media enflames/re-enforces people who already also believe the same thing, re-enforcing their view, which is the opposite of a public good
<blowfish>
though obviously the consequences are less severe if it's not hate speech
<blowfish>
many political circles these days seem like echo chambers
<Pap>
not yet Bornholio, didnt have time last night, had a C++ project to finish and test to take
<Rokker>
i dont want a fucking space corps god dammit
<blowfish>
the only thing I can think to do is actively try to expose people to a variety of viewpoints
<stratochief>
blowfish: of politics is left to opinion, possibly. but IMO, presenting any view without context and data backing it is in the direction of wreckless and harmful
<Pap>
blowfish: Social Media and the ability of individuals on the Internet to find people that believe the same things as they do cause severe Echo Chambers throughout society, IMO
<stratochief>
Rokker: wasn't MOL going to be manned by the space corps? :P
<Rokker>
U S A F
<lamont>
Pap: where do i find RO.EarlyTinySolarPanel?
<regex>
Pap, were you working on the RD-107/108 file a few days ago?
<stratochief>
Rokker: BYO-Air
NathanKell|WORK has joined #RO
<regex>
I recall NathanKell asking me about a link from where I got some information
<stratochief>
blowfish: agree. the challenge is to determine the most equitable and fair way to ensure people are exposed to many views, arguments
<Bornholio>
Lol serious #PolRO action this mornin'
<regex>
I just realized I have an entire folder of random engine links on this computer
<Bornholio>
Rokker United States Aerospace Force
<regex>
and I found the one where I got all my information
<blowfish>
so the question is how do you ensure that people are exposed to quality journalism rather than just clickbait articles on their Facebook feed?
<Rokker>
Bornholio: Aerospace still includes the aero
<stratochief>
blowfish: indeed. which we can discuss on #Mars sometime if you like. but that is the correct question
<Pap>
lamont: Do you have the pap1723-ROupdates branch of Realism Overhaul?
<Pap>
regex: I was working on it a couple of weeks ago
<regex>
Ah.
<Pap>
I will gladly take any links that you have to share though!
<NathanKell|WORK>
lamont: Get Pap-ROUpdates branch of RO and Pap-TechTree branch of RP-0
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: stratochief_ left a message for you in #RO [26.06.2017 15:44:03]: "the Reddit RSS page should absolutely have your "How To Ask For Help" forum page stickied"
<NathanKell|WORK>
the early solar panel is a clone in one of 'em
<NathanKell|WORK>
Rokker: The AD was the Skyraider under pre-MacNamara nomenclature (later A-1). Post-WW2.
<NathanKell|WORK>
AD-1 was A-1A IIRC, -2 was -1B, etc
<regex>
Oh, the Able Dog, I read a book about that plane...
<NathanKell|WORK>
rsparkyc: the Pap-TechTree branch
<regex>
shit, I totally missed that part of the convo
<NathanKell|WORK>
brb
<Pap>
regex: too much poli talk clogs the feed, hard to read
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: kk, wasnt sure if the numbers translated over to the letters n shit
<regex>
Pap, yeah, lol
<Pap>
regex: you can read Russian?
<regex>
but it's just the morning banter, I've stopped trying to curb it.
<lamont>
i don’t quite want the whole tech tree overhaul of RP-0 tho
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: also, dont you just love it when different govt groups with different nomenclatures use the same name for different vehicles
<Rokker>
such as AD-1 and XS-1
<regex>
Pap, no, but I know of some great translation tools made by a famous search engine company.
<regex>
I wish I could read Russian. Might start learning it because the U.S. is fast becoming friends with them.
<Pap>
lamont: are you just wanting to add that solar panel to your game?
<lamont>
yeah just want to load a rocket with that
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK Pap: you should have seen the GEICO Skytypers
<blowfish>
Pap: I would guess pull
<blowfish>
pull in the void
<blowfish>
(= vacuum thrust)
<Pap>
So the first one would be 1020 kN?
<blowfish>
close, I think it's given in tonnes-force
<blowfish>
so multiply by g
<Rokker>
the sky typing was alright, but then they brought the 6 x T-6 Texans down closer and used their smoke trails to show off WW2 era spotting, strafing, and bombing techniques.
<Pap>
Thanks blowfish
<Pap>
regex: The numbers on this site are significantly higher thrust than anything else we have seen on the RD-107 engines
<regex>
Pap, the verniers are likely included in the total thrust.\
<regex>
isp is exhaust velocity
<Pap>
regex: That is probably why
<regex>
IIRC each vernier is about 3kN
<regex>
?
<regex>
yeah, 3kN
<NathanKell|WORK>
That's a Nam era Dog, Rokker
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: yeah i know
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: she was built just post war
<Rokker>
47 iirc
<Pap>
blowfish: I hear that you might be interested in messing with some SSTU code? (watching the VOD from last night)
<blowfish>
NathanKell|WORK: I plan to submit a request to Github support to unlink AJE from camlost's original repo. Any objection?
<blowfish>
Pap: yeah, don't know if I can make any fundamental changes but minor tweaks should work
<blowfish>
although SSTU development has moved to 1.3 so testing any RO integration might be hard at this point
<Pap>
One of the big things blowfish is to get SSTU to work with and talk to TestFlight. Clustered engines do not fail correctly (just treated as one engine) I know Agathorn had some ideas about it
<blowfish>
I do suspect that would require a plugin with awareness of both TestFlight and SSTU
<egg|anbo|egg>
stratochief: rotten me?
<stratochief>
egg|anbo|egg: natural gas smells of rotten you
<blowfish>
Pap: my knowledge of TestFlight's code is basically nonexistent too, but I would definitely be willing to collaborate with Agathorn on such an endeavor
<Agathorn>
blowfish: or an SSTU module in TestFlight and/or updating SSTU to work with TestFlight's Interop system just likfe RF and PParts do
<blowfish>
ah right, that can be done with reflection
<egg|anbo|egg>
stratochief: well methylmercaptan really
<Pap>
Bornholio: I elected not to do it that way, but you can fit a larger icon that way. Maybe it would be worth it for us to standardize everything to a 45 degree angle, thoughts anyone?
<Bornholio>
those last two got too fuzzy in vertical
leudaimon|work has joined #RO
<blowfish>
Agathorn: I'll have to look into it a bit. I think it's more complicated than most cases here because each engine should be effectively independent and the number of them on a part is dynamic
<Agathorn>
Dynamic is the whole point of the interop system :)
<Agathorn>
it was written to hndle the dynamic changes to a part in mods like ProcParts and RealFuels that change a part based on user settings
<Agathorn>
off the top of my head, I would give an SSTU cluster an interop value to identify how many engines it has
<blowfish>
okay, so each engine in the cluster could have an index passed to the "value" parameter?
<Agathorn>
the entire cluster is one part right?
<blowfish>
yes
<Agathorn>
so you can't really identify each individual engine to the best of my knowldge
<Agathorn>
but what you can do is make TF aware of how many engines there are
<Bornholio>
stratochief specificly Odor: garlic odor FREEZING POINT:-227 F (-144 C) http://www.megs.ca/MSDS/Pdf/Ethyl_Mercaptan.PDF rotten egg smell probably not going to be added the Methane in tank and probably makes using pipeline gass slightly harder if they on site compress it.
<Agathorn>
Which then lets you build a separate TF config for each engine count, letting you do things like scale the data rate or reliability
<egg|anbo|egg>
Bornholio: rotten me
<Agathorn>
this isn't the end goal but its a good middle ground with very little work on the SSTU side (probably 10-20 lines of code total)
<blowfish>
ugh, that doesn't sound very scalable
<stratochief>
Bornholio: or, exploit that temperature difference to freeze off the odor chemical from pipeline gas to then use the methane for fuel
<NathanKell|WORK>
blowfish: Sounds fine to me!
<stratochief>
I simply love the idea of landfill gas being collected and used to fuel rocket ships
<Bornholio>
The russians say they tested RD-0410 with Methane
<Agathorn>
the end goal is to make TF aware of the individual engines in the cluster, but that will reuire a lot more work, something probably on both sides, and at the moment I don't even know how the individual engines in a clustr work or are set up
<stratochief>
christ, finally we get a decent thunder storm. I haven't heard a good thunder storm for ~3 years, since I left the praires
<Bornholio>
stratochief had "decent" thunder and loss of power for 3 hours this morning
<stratochief>
*prairies
<Agathorn>
if they are just using multiple engine modules, with varying engine ids, then the interop value is probably all you need
<Agathorn>
assuming the engine IDs follow some sort of index pattern
<blowfish>
Agathorn: one engine module, thrust is multiplied
<Agathorn>
then that.. is sucky
<Agathorn>
seriously? There aren't separate thrust transforms?
* stratochief
envies Bornholio
<Agathorn>
thats horrible
<blowfish>
proportional thrust is adjustable per transform
<blowfish>
there are multiple thrust transforms
<blowfish>
including possibly verniers which would have less thrust
<Agathorn>
how do you have multiple transforms with only one engine module
<Agathorn>
I thought it was 1 transform per
<blowfish>
the same way multi-chamber engines work currently
<blowfish>
all the transforms have the same name
<Agathorn>
so it isn't even possible to fail a specific engine
<Agathorn>
because there is only one
<stratochief>
TF could count them, from the RealPlume config or whatever handles/holds the multiple transforms?
<NathanKell|WORK>
the 1.2+ engine module supports varying thrust amount per transform index
<Agathorn>
well the interop would let you config them but if it only has one engine what can TF actually o?
<blowfish>
yes, so TF would have to tell SSTU about a particular failure and it would then adjust the total thrust and proportional thrust on those transforms
<stratochief>
NathanKell|WORK: can the 1.2+ engine module change that thrust while in flight, in response to an order from TF?
<regex>
Solution: Don't use SSTU clustering
<NathanKell|WORK>
oh yes certainly
<Agathorn>
the sstu clisters are very nice.. I just thought they made separate engien modules
<regex>
Is there a way to globally diable it?
<Agathorn>
wish it did
<regex>
man, I can't type today.
<NathanKell|WORK>
you'd change the floats in the transform->thrust_portion list, and then change the total flow rate to accord with that
<stratochief>
regex: solution to KSProblems: uninstall KSP?
<Agathorn>
format c:
<regex>
#seemslegit
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: That would be very very hard, it'd have to dynamically change the transform names
<Agathorn>
?
<blowfish>
it could just set the proportion on some indices to 0
<NathanKell|WORK>
90% afk now, o/
<blowfish>
(for a total failure)
<NathanKell|WORK>
oh right, yeah, don't have to vary max thrust at all then :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
but anyway, o/
<blowfish>
well you would, since the total thrust would be less
<blowfish>
later NK
<Agathorn>
well you are going to have to do something in SSTU then in order to handle a failure because without them being real engines i'm not sure how TF can do it
<blowfish>
yes, like I said there would have to be code aware of both SSTU and TF
<Agathorn>
the other option is to write a separate mod that plugs into TF (the module system is designed to allow that) and then do it all in that TF module
<Agathorn>
which I think is what I had originally planned to do
<Agathorn>
the interop on the SSTU side would stil be nice though to give config flexability
<Bornholio>
Pap shall i put th e45degree rotate on all my nuclear icons and put them in Git?
<Bornholio>
I would also add a trefoil too
<Agathorn>
blowfish in that case what you essentially would do is write a custom set of modules, similiar to FlightDataRecorder_Engine, TestFlightReliability_Engine, TestFlightFailure_EngineShutown, etc
<Agathorn>
designed to be aware of SSTU
<Agathorn>
then in the configs RO would need to use those modules rather than the generic engine ones
<Agathorn>
if you go that route though i'd rather see them in a separate mod that just depends on SSTU and TF rather than putting it into TF itself.. I really prefer keeping TF mod agnostic
<Agathorn>
in the core
<blowfish>
yeah
<Agathorn>
I could probably get you setup with a skeleton project to do it.. but TF itself is split up into pieces so the system was setup to do that
<Agathorn>
TF is actually 3 assemblies
<blowfish>
would ideally want a separate plugin similar to TestFlight-RF
<Agathorn>
exactly
<Pap>
Bornholio: yes please. If you have room (you should at 45 degrees) you should be able to increase the size of them for more fidelity
<Bornholio>
yellow trefoil or grey?
<Bornholio>
Both!
<egg|anbo|egg>
!wpn NathanKell|WORK
* Qboid
gives NathanKell|WORK a top culverin
<Bornholio>
+2/3spin blackpowder guns
<Rokker>
NathanKell|WORK: question
<Rokker>
what exactly is the flying high science altitude and what was the reasoning behind it
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<Pap>
Rokker: it is 50km I am pretty sure, and he said there was no actual reasoning behind it, it was gameplay reasons that ssemed the best
<Rokker>
hmmm
<Pap>
Bornholio: that should work i think
<leudaimon|work>
Rokker It's different in other bodies, and as Pap said, it's gameplay reasons to make it harder to reach... the whole mechanic is imported from the stock system
<soundnfury>
really there should be separate situations for each of the layers. So troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere and exosphere.
<Bornholio>
50km is an unreasonable altitude for aircraft unless the are special built for that like X-1, X-15
<soundnfury>
because each time you pass a discontinuity (like the tropopause) you learn new things about the atmosphere
<Rokker>
Bornholio soundnfury the reason im wondering about this is because it essentially makes NASA's USAF hand me downs/high altitude research aircraft like the WB-57 and the ER-2 essentially useless
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<lamont>
> 50km is above the stratosphere and above balloon height
<Bornholio>
basicly it makes it rocket country
<Bornholio>
in you know a rocket game :) that has trains and boats and planes and cars and little green dudes
<Rokker>
Bornholio: yeah yeah yeah, thats what people said when the C7 mods got added to the stock game too
<Rokker>
"oh why are you adding plane parts, this is a game about rockets"
<Bornholio>
probably a pain to change how the science game works also. Go for it. DMagic figured it out somewhat
<lamont>
okay looks like these engines are so unreliable that i just need to turn agathorn off to get anything done here...
<Bornholio>
18 launches straight with A-9's
<Bornholio>
friggin full data running less than max runtime
<Pap>
Bornholio: someone needs to finish RealScience from Agathorn
<Bornholio>
pap should i make a branch or drop these icons straight into tech tree?
<Bornholio>
or seperate workspace
<Rokker>
how can i make the avionics warning show up again
<Pap>
Bornholio: I am going to have to modify them a little bit, so leaving them where they are in the DB link works for me!
<Pap>
Yeah, the 45 degrees definitely looks better, those look phenomenal
<Bornholio>
ok I'll leave it to you then, thanks
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<leudaimon|work>
Pap, did you guys decide anything about avionics in the start node?
<lamont>
!tell NathanKell you found a good example of terminal guidance wiggles
<Qboid>
lamont: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: yes, there will definitely be the first Proc Avinoics and the Starting 1m in the start node
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<Pap>
I accidentally started a game without Taerobee and realized it is necessary to have those there
<Pap>
BTW, I am playing with your Proc Avionics, I don't have any feedback yet as I just started, but I will let you know how they feel
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: I think we need to severely nerf the Early Controllable Core
* Pap
ducks as NK throws things at him
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<Bornholio>
pap when do you get ECCore now?
<Pap>
Bornholio: about the same time, it is Basic Avionics which is circa 1959
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<leudaimon|work>
Ok Pap, so nothing I need to change yet, as there is a proc. avionics in the start node. If you feel anything imbalanced as you advance, please let me know
<leudaimon|work>
I didn't advance much in my test campaign, I'm not even finding the time to keep up with RtS
<Pap>
yeah, leudaimon|Work this should be a rough week for me as well wiht work
<Pap>
Bornholio: the volume numbers on that very small part are outrageous. It is tiny, but there is room for 18 Liters in there. So removing the Electric Charge (comes pre-stocked with 15,840) nets you some serious Delta-v in a small small package
<Bornholio>
its the same as a tank of similar size
<Pap>
Right, but there are no avionics in the tank
<Bornholio>
its only .2t of avionics
<Bornholio>
control limit anyways
<Pap>
I am only comparing it to Procedural Avionics, unless I am very wrong
<Pap>
If you have it open, what is a comparable Procedural Avionics at that size give you?
<Bornholio>
I think its due for a slight nerfy, and proc avionics whould have increase possibly ^^imgur above
<Pap>
I see that now
<Pap>
Wouldn't the avionics from that era 1959, take up the majority of the open space?
<Bornholio>
for a 200kg sat i can't imagine much that isn't included in the associated hardware itself
<Pap>
OK then, it is very possible that I am wrong
<Bornholio>
its 50kg of avionics in about 5liters, very dense (includes the tank 13 more liters
<Bornholio>
Should proc avionics be the same or less efficient?
<Bornholio>
Proc is nearly 2x volume but cheaper and slightly heavier (sans that amount of battery)
<Bornholio>
if there is a balance issue its the SAS modes ECC has, most and PPC has only SAS at that point
<Rokker>
so my perfectly symmetrical rocket seems to be pulling in one direction as it burns. completely uncontrolled and stuff, but it still pulls to one side
<Rokker>
any ideas?
<Rokker>
RCS aid shows no imbalances
<leudaimon|work>
Pap, I think the huge battery should go, one tenth of that would be enough... also solves the tank size issue. Without that, I think it gets more balanced
<leudaimon|work>
In a side note, I discussed with rsparkyc this possibility of adding a tank to proc avionics by separating the size of the part from its avionics content...
<rsparkyc>
yeah, just gotta find some time to try to make that work :)
<rsparkyc>
o/
<leudaimon|work>
o/
<Bornholio>
right now the ECC is almost identical to a 18L tank, has an 18l tank so it should have some change to reduce the tank. Right now a fully loaded ECC is 5.6g/cm3 very dense almost solid metal weight
<Bornholio>
at fuselage tank 18L (.5mx.1m(100mmfillet tank)) is 53kg, 18kEC and 2.93g/cm3 density
<Pap>
So it is almost twice as dense, so the weight is ok? Is it just one of those parts that to me seems wrong, but works with the math?
<Pap>
And procedural avionics need to be tweaked possibly?
<Bornholio>
smallest PPC .5m x .1m cylinder at tech ECC begins is 19.6kg 19.6l so density 1
<Bornholio>
sorry weight.766 kg
<Bornholio>
so 0.04 density, mostly empty psace
<Bornholio>
sorry had to move some bars first, to get it to show right
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<Bornholio>
its actually 36.88kg at 200%util, (same .2t avionics as ECC) ~2density
<Agathorn>
Pap: I was just looking at the dev branch on RealScience and it looks like I at least had made some progress on the refactor
<Rokker>
so
<Rokker>
what mod do yall think i should start with deleting to find this bug
<Rokker>
persistent rotation?
<Bornholio>
log? you throwing exceptions during flight?
<Rokker>
nope
<Rokker>
none that i can see
<Bornholio>
Well i just checked an Mercury 7 ghosts are beating up Flat earthers, so thats not it
<Rokker>
oh wait hold up
<Rokker>
hmmm
<Rokker>
im not seeing anything that i think would cause it but idk
<Rokker>
im not exactly amazing at this stuff
<Bornholio>
try reinstalling RO master first and delete your MM cache then wait 20 minutes
<Bornholio>
patching
<Rokker>
ugh
<leudaimon|work>
Pap and NathanKell|WORK for the proc. avionics I went for a size more similar to ranger I, but given there is the possibility of going for 200% usage, I think it's a good approximation to double the ECC
<leudaimon|work>
that's what I had done in the current version of proc avionics in the old tech tree
<Bornholio>
batteries on lunar lander summary, average density 2.36, average Mass Power Density 176Whr/kg, 420 Whr/l across 187kg of batteries (10 total)
<leudaimon|work>
currently battery density is fixed, right?
<Bornholio>
in a fuselage tank its about 2.9, tank is negligible
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: yes, currently battery density is fixed, I believe that NathanKell|WORK is going to be changing that and we are going to unlock updates in the Electronics Blue Sky Nodes
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<leudaimon|work>
ah, that would be nice! not that batteries are that important once you develop different ways to produce energy...
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<Bornholio>
Pap duplicated the KCT super money bug
<Bornholio>
upgrading my R&D facilites
<Pap>
Ah Bornholio your whole save is screwed
<Bornholio>
i was rushing through upgrading R&D to look at later icons and it started, disturbs clicking in space center too
<Pap>
I do not think the save, or previous autosaves are able to be saved
<Pap>
I went to a previous quicksave from that same save and once I landed my ship, it began counting up again
<Bornholio>
it has something to do with RP-0 config, when is change to another config it stops
<Bornholio>
at least changing to 7day does
<Bornholio>
its the KSC upgrade times function
<Pap>
HMMMMM, this will be a NathanKell|WORK fix, he is the only one with the power
<NathanKell|WORK>
que?
<Pap>
Bornholio has duplicated that neverending money bug
<Bornholio>
nothing but tech in que, console spammingupgrading from 4 to 5 and abunch of KCT lines
<Bornholio>
i'll post a log
<Pap>
So it is a KCT issue?
<NathanKell|WORK>
sounds like :\
<NathanKell|WORK>
It may not be used to facilities with levels count > 3
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: do you have the newest version of KCT? The official 1.2.2 release, or do you have the one that we were all using that worked well?
<Pap>
Bornholio: which version of KCT do you have?
<Rokker>
Bornholio: negatory on the whole reinstalling ro
<Bornholio>
1.3.5.1
<Bornholio>
DB is slow, i have to run for 20 i'll post a log then
<Rokker>
according the MJ, no parts capable of producing torque are producing torque. no reaction wheels, rcs or gimballing
<Rokker>
which makes sense since the craft has none of those
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: I think I have the dropbox one
<NathanKell|WORK>
not sure tho
<NathanKell|WORK>
maybe I have official now
<NathanKell|WORK>
wait, I think I do have official now
<Pap>
Hmmm, I wonder what born's log will say
<NathanKell|WORK>
1.3.5.0
<Pap>
I think that is the one right before "release"
<NathanKell|WORK>
Although the dll says 1.3.0.26
<Pap>
I wonder if that one is ok since you haven't seen it yet and have obviously put in some good playtime on the new branches
<Agathorn>
having to implement something very similiar to KSP's PQS system, I suddenly have a whole new respect for it
<Pap>
Agathorn: Procedural terrain deformation?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yesterday I upgraded R&D (clicked on it once)
<NathanKell|WORK>
haven't gone infmoney since
<Agathorn>
not the terrains but a progressize quadsphere system that lets you subdivide inidivudal quads seamlessley
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: It's basically a generalized version of Sean P. O'Neil's thing
* Agathorn
hits Google
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|WORK: happen to know a link? Google isn't being helpful
<Agathorn>
I watched the Unity video which just gave me a better feel and respect for it, but nothing about implementation
<NathanKell|WORK>
Sadly Sean's site is down
<Agathorn>
huh lot of stuff on that link.. I'll read through it, but particulalry i'm just looking for how to handle different density neighboring quads
<Agathorn>
the blending of the seam is the hardest issue I think
<Bornholio>
so it looks like it goes into a mode where its reducing R&D down to 4 and refunding the cost then applying the increase again without cost
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<Bornholio>
Pap and NathaKell|WORK want me to try and fix it / new career and duplicate it?
<taniwha>
darn
<taniwha>
!tell blowfish sorry, I didn't notice the branch when I updated
<Qboid>
taniwha: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<leudaimon|work>
!tell NathanKell|WORK, soundnfury, rsparkyc I'm considering creating a proc. avionics similar to the centaur avionics for RtS, as well as adding a science container in the Ranger I level proc avionics, is that ok?
<Qboid>
leudaimon|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.