<soundnfury>
Venus probe launch went off without a hitch
<soundnfury>
got a nice expedited transfer, and predicted <750km pericytherion
<leudaimon>
cool soundnfury!
<soundnfury>
I will finally get a first ^_^
<leudaimon>
:)
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Pap|Away is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
<Pap>
Saabstory88: Ready to talk?
<Saabstory88>
shortly
<Saabstory88>
@Pap shortly
<Pap>
sounds good, I should be around the rest of the night
<Agathorn>
so under the changes to the metric system, mass changes if time changes?
<Agathorn>
it seems like everythign is essentially tied back to the speed of light and if we determine that the speed of light is in fact not a constant.. we're all kinds of messed up :)
<Agathorn>
(in a vacuum)
<Saabstory88>
@Pap sorry, wife had first day at Tesla, gotta listen to her story’s, then I’ll be back :)
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<Saabstory88>
@Pap olay, ready
<Saabstory88>
@Pap you back?
<Pap>
Saabstory88: I'm talking to my wife right now, give me 10
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Theysen left a message for you in #RO [12.06.2017 07:58:50]: "done :)"
<Pap>
o/
<Saabstory88>
So I’m trying to understand the kind of nodes to put these tanks in
<Pap>
ok
<Pap>
So here is the "idea" behind the tree
<Saabstory88>
:)
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: You...might get a first. Might not, too. Depends on who arrives first (and transmits first)
<NathanKell>
I mean, like I said I'm not trying to beat you
<NathanKell>
but leudaimon might :P
<Pap>
It is broken up into eras. In order to progress into the next era, you research the Blue Sky Technology of Materials Science and Electronics. These are the techs that unlock the era
<Pap>
We had decided that tanks would pretty much be set in the Materials Science Blue Sky nodes that would unlock for their corresponding era
<leudaimon>
I haven't unlocked intrumentation yet soundnfury ;)
<Saabstory88>
That sounds very reasonable
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc, c'mon rsparkyc
<Pap>
hopefully that all makes sense Saabstory88
<Pap>
lol NathanKell
<Saabstory88>
@Pap, yes it does.
<acc>
heya guys
<Pap>
hey acc
<acc>
:)
<NathanKell>
hey acc :)
<acc>
hey NathanKell. how's the new job? :)
<NathanKell>
It's good!
<Saabstory88>
@Pap pm?
<NathanKell>
NO NO I WANNA HEAR
<NathanKell>
:P
<acc>
cool
<Saabstory88>
Well okay
* NathanKell
stamps foot
<acc>
no secrets. it will break us appart!
<acc>
<dramamode>
<Pap>
lol
<Saabstory88>
So let’s start at post-war
<NathanKell>
drama-dairy
<acc>
heh
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<Pap>
there goes all our plotting and RO takeover plans Saabstory88
<Saabstory88>
haha
<acc>
:D
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell closed pull request #1674: Change DRE heatshield categories into Themal (master...master) https://git.io/vHHce
<Saabstory88>
So post war, we should probably have an A-4 based tank which is pretty heavy, at 1.65m, yes?
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<Saabstory88>
What else would be pertinent for post-war?
<NathanKell>
1ft and 1.5ft WAC and Aerobee tanks respectively
<Pap>
NathanKell: but those are already in start node we decided, right?
<NathanKell>
Ah right sorry
<Pap>
So post-war shoudl be clean with only those, yes
<Saabstory88>
So WAC and Aerobee do not belong to early?
<Pap>
WAC and Aerobee belong to Start node
<Saabstory88>
Okay
<Saabstory88>
so 1, and 1.5ft tanks, got it
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<Saabstory88>
Any concept of the materials/construction involved?
<Pap>
Let me tell you where the tank sizes for Procedurals currently unlock and then we can discuss, might be easier
<leudaimon>
guys, I'm trying to figure out a way to make proc. avionics tech levels simpler...
<NathanKell>
speak of the sparky!
<leudaimon>
oh! mention proc. avionics and he appears!
<Saabstory88>
@Pap. Okay. It’s not just about sizes, but also mass fraction and tank type
<Pap>
leudaimon: in the new tree, they are broken out pretty straightforward
<Pap>
Saabstory88: that makes sense, we are going to want NathanKell for that discussion, I am not versed enough for that level of details
<leudaimon>
yep Pap, what I have in mind is a kind of formula to advancement through the eras
<rsparkyc>
s\
<rsparkyc>
ugh
<rsparkyc>
wrong keyboard layout
<rsparkyc>
o/
<NathanKell>
So, there's two things that improve over time: PMF and size.
<Saabstory88>
exactly
<NathanKell>
PMF is both from gradual materials improvement and from conceptual leaps (integral, balloon, common bulkhead...am I missing any?)
<Saabstory88>
You can get larger sizes earlier, but they should be inefficeint
<Pap>
PMF is Payload-Mass Fraction?
<NathanKell>
propellant, in this case
<NathanKell>
it's tricky, it can be used for either :]
<Pap>
ok
<Saabstory88>
So anyway, I’m sort of looking for must-have historical tank types from each Materials Science node
<Pap>
Saabstory88: the way it is now (maybe NathanKell has a better idea) is this:
<Pap>
Default Tank unlocks at Satellite Era
<Pap>
Balloon and Service Module unlcoks at Early Human Spaceflight
<Pap>
Cryogenic and Balloon Cryogenic unlock at Advanced Capsules
<Pap>
So, prior to Satellite Era, players have to use Fuselage tank type which is obviously heavier
<Pap>
I know your mod goes much deeper than that, so that is the basics I have
<Saabstory88>
Okay, cool. I’m pretty versed in both US/Soviet tank layouts from 1960 onwards, just sort of trying to get a sense of what kind of vessel functions fill out the earlier portions of the tree
<Saabstory88>
@NathanKell: Difference between Fuselage and Structural tank types?
<NathanKell>
But I can see practicality limiting them to starting in Satellite Era
<Saabstory88>
@NathanKell, I can set size limits on tanks, so we can make frorce them to be small and/or weak
<NathanKell>
Yeah, I need to change RF (well, someone needs to change RF) to support varying mass for tanks
<NathanKell>
at that point we can go ahead and have non-integral in the start, then integral in the postwar node, then balloon in early satellites. Common bulkhead is harder to model because even the Able (and obviously Atlas) had common bulkhead tanks, the difficulty there was deeply-cryo common bulkheads
<NathanKell>
and RF isn't smart enough yet to deal with that
<NathanKell>
Wait, let me restate
<NathanKell>
thought of w ay
<NathanKell>
s/w a/wa/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: thought of way
<Agathorn>
debating writing a custom unit class that is aware of the units it is in, similiar to astropy
<Agathorn>
though that is something that works better in an untyped language like Python I think
<Saabstory88>
yeah
<Saabstory88>
understoo
<NathanKell>
So the one thing I'd differ with Pap on is pushing back balloon to Early Materials Science
<Saabstory88>
Maybe not for PP though
<NathanKell>
err, Satellite Era? Well, one of them
<Pap>
I guess Balloon needs to be SAtellite Era
<Saabstory88>
Can something be done with the load in which a part breaks>
<Pap>
s/SA/Sa
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: I guess Balloon needs to be Satellite Era
<Pap>
Atlas launched in 57
<NathanKell>
yeah
<Saabstory88>
As in, you can have Baloon stanks earlier, but if you put a 10 ton upper stage on it the tank explodes
<Saabstory88>
Is that an existing part parameter?
<NathanKell>
Saabstory88: I would like to say yes, but I can't immediately think of how.
<NathanKell>
ferram4?
<Pap>
There is just nothign currently stopping the player from choosing Balloon tank everytime currently, correct?
<Saabstory88>
Expense shoudl
<NathanKell>
Cost alone atm
<Pap>
ok
<Saabstory88>
But strength should play a part too
<NathanKell>
With launch costs, we can also drastically increase the launch cost of balloon-tanked things
<NathanKell>
because they require vigilance, and other things don't
<Agathorn>
well if you move away from infinite tank variations of PP, then you could use TF to make balloon tanks more failure prone
<Saabstory88>
And the starting baloon tanks could have a huge unlock cost
<Agathorn>
could probably also write up a failure module that look st upstage mass
<Pap>
I have seen you mention that before, what is launch costs?
<Pap>
s/is/are
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: I have seen you mention that before, what are launch costs?
<NathanKell>
Pap: rockets have two costs: the cost to manufacture the parts, and the costs to (prep and) perform the launch
<Agathorn>
+cost to tool the parts
<NathanKell>
right now we're only modeling a single cost
<Pap>
gotcha
<NathanKell>
ok, Agathorn's right, 3 costs.
<Agathorn>
tooling and manfucaturing are really two different things
<NathanKell>
Tooling, series production, and launch
<ferram4>
NathanKell, ?
<NathanKell>
yeah, indeed
<NathanKell>
ferram4: A way to figure out what stress a part is under
<NathanKell>
(i.e. to make an Atlas pop from upmass)
<NathanKell>
Pap: We ignore tooling entirely, and as for launch costs vs manufacturing costs we're all over the place but kinda try to combine a bit
<Pap>
Through RF, is there a way to have unlock costs for the Balloon tanks?
<Agathorn>
I'd actually like to do something similiar in Stellar Trail (having upstage mass be a factor)
<NathanKell>
Pap: Not right now. Fairly trivial
<NathanKell>
I already have the backbone in
<Saabstory88>
For the meantime, concerning tooling, I was thinking tank unlock costs could work for that?
<NathanKell>
But a long time ago magico13 put stuff in KCT to support launch costs, we've just never taken advantage yet
<NathanKell>
Saabstory88: With fixed diameters, yes
<Agathorn>
I think unlock costs are indeed supposed to simulate tooling/initial research costs
<ferram4>
NathanKell, okay, so get the felt g-Forces, then get the mass on the upper side of the tank, then you can calculate the force that the tank needs to provide to not crush, then divide that by the cross-sectional area of the tank and you get the stress in it.
<NathanKell>
Cool! And yeah you can just check topnode and trawl for mass for that set of parts
<Saabstory88>
@NathanKell, sounds easy enough
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: you could make a TF failure module that does that :D
<Agathorn>
with exploding rocket as the consequence :)
<xShadowx>
Agathorn NathanKell thats more of KKS land sinc physical crushing ;p
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Indeed yes
<ferram4>
NathanKell, it needs to be considered from the perspective of which direction the tank might be accelerated in. It must fail very easily if there is acceleration to either side.
<Pap>
Now, as the worst rocket scientist in the room, how do we make it understandable for the player?
<Saabstory88>
But we don’t want it to improve with testing, we want it to improve with development, yes?
<Agathorn>
you and your KKS worship.. have you married it yet? :)
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Ahhhh yes quite right
<ferram4>
Also needs a buckling approximation for very narrow tanks.
<NathanKell>
Saabstory88 yeah
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<Agathorn>
Saabstory88: not everything in TF needs to be testing based
<rsparkyc>
leudaimon, i see you have energy drain constant for the upper stages and probe cores
<Saabstory88>
ahh, didn’t know that
<Agathorn>
you could make a flat curve
<Agathorn>
AKA a line lol
<xShadowx>
i did manage to get KKS to crush on demand, but i dont know how to move rest of vessel parts to match it, and with so much hate at IR i didnt wanna learn it from them and inherit the hate :|
<rsparkyc>
instead of progressively better energy consumption rates
<leudaimon>
yep, but tonnage is increasing
<Saabstory88>
@ferram4 I will know the finess ratio inherintly from the plugin
<Saabstory88>
At least of any stage using my parts
<leudaimon>
so per ton energy consumption is getting better
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<Pap>
leudaimon: so as I read this, the same size Proc Avionics unit in Tech 1, can it control more mass in say Tech 3?
<leudaimon>
exactly Pap
<leudaimon>
I decided to keep mass and size constant and increase tonnage
<rsparkyc>
what about boosters? there you did that but lowered consumption
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<Pap>
that is probably the easier way to simulate the miniaturization of electronics
<rsparkyc>
also, we can also set hard upper/lower limits on units as well
<leudaimon>
thinking about the 1m avionics ring for example
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<rsparkyc>
that way you can't shrink down a booster stage to be a probe core
<rsparkyc>
but all that's configurable :)
<leudaimon>
I tought for the boosters energy comsumption starts too high, so decided to reduce power consumption proportionately more than tonnage
<leudaimon>
about max/min, I think we should keep that, yes... I think for booster it could be triple the "standard" value for max, and 15T for min like now
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<leudaimon>
upper could keep 3T -> double the standard value
<Saabstory88>
@ferram4 @NathanKell how do nodes currently determine how to break?
<leudaimon>
and for probes I don't think we need a limit
<Saabstory88>
Or rather when to break
<rsparkyc>
ok, i think i agree with you there
<ferram4>
They do not. The joints between parts try to fix the part positions based on their spring stiffnesses, that exceeds their breakForce or breakTorque values, and the joint breaks.
<rsparkyc>
i noticed for the probes, the cost per controllable ton seems to flatten out (and even increase) towards the end, do we want that?
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: I'm fairly confident I'll win the Venus race; I got a rather fast transfer
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<rsparkyc>
i'm hoping i win mars
<rsparkyc>
planning on leaving early and fast
<soundnfury>
(90 days, when the Hohmann is about 118)
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Cool :)
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<leudaimon>
I took these multipliers per era from the top of my head, should check against the non-procedural parts to see if it is ok.
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<leudaimon>
also, the number of eras is at 7, but we might need more...
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc, leudaimon: I think I did intend probe costs per ton to flatten out more or less, but that's because (notionally) later probe avionics should be more capable
<soundnfury>
rsparkyc: I'm probably not even gonna be in the running for Mars, because getting a conjunction-class mission is hard
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<soundnfury>
I usually just wait until I get the slightly better dish, in the 160-point electrics node
<leudaimon>
well, got to go... I'll check these values tomorrow and might create an issue on RP-0 for that
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<rsparkyc>
sweet
<rsparkyc>
good work leudaimon
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, do you have some script to get velues from the spreadsheet to a cfg?
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<Saabstory88>
@ferram4 are the breakForce and breakTorque fields calculated, or set?
<rsparkyc>
no, just did it by hand
<NathanKell>
Saabstory88 you can set em
<leudaimon>
ah, ok... shouldn't be a problem
<rsparkyc>
copy paste the above config, change the numbers, repeat
<leudaimon>
sure, it's quite simple actually
<leudaimon>
o/
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<ferram4>
Saabstory88, there is the problem that with KJR, things become more complicated because of multijoints that skip parts to provide additional rigidity, taking some of the force and placing it elsewhere... so you're better off implementing your own system for breaking though.
<Pap>
NathanKell: you have mentioned the GCR class Vanguard solid, but I cannot find it, the first Solid is the Altair
<rsparkyc>
no takers on why my scatterer shows that halo?
<NathanKell>
It's in Raidernick_'s Vanguard parts, and also probably BDB
<NathanKell>
we don't VSR/SXT clone it
<Pap>
ah, ok
<Pap>
should we?
<NathanKell>
Nah, sergeant clusters are fine
<Pap>
k
<NathanKell>
it's broadly equivalent to like 3 of them IIRC
<NathanKell>
maybe slightlyb etter
<NathanKell>
ok, think I'm gonna try to stream before supper
<NathanKell>
sorry to duck out :]
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<Pap>
\o/
<Saabstory88>
@ferram so I should go back and read about wall thickness and such I guess
<ferram4>
Saabstory88, yes. Also look up buckling approximations.
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<Saabstory88>
Thanks all, should have some part spreadsheets this week
<Pap>
I'll ask when he comes back, but should Science points unlocking part nodes be removed? Should they unlock with money?
<Pap>
And have science get converted to funds at a rate TBD
<Saabstory88>
:)
<Saabstory88>
goodnight
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<xShadowx>
Pap: just saying, ksp doesnt have to award sci, and tech nodes could be fully cash based :|
<Pap>
That's what I think xShadowx, but that is going to have to get approval and buy in from pretty much everyone that frequents this IRC
<xShadowx>
oh i make no vote on it :P
<xShadowx>
i do whats fun for me ^.^ and thats ksp without funds + magical vab spawning heh
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<xShadowx>
i think its cuz i used to play RTS games so much ;/ gathering to build just feels right
<Pap>
:)
<xShadowx>
has the upside of my civilization doesnt have them stinkin 1%ers :)
<blowfish>
yeah tech based on space science always seemed odd to me
<regex>
fuuuuuuck this...
<acc>
oh, there's venus on the early morning horizon, right east. twinkly :]
<Agathorn>
it wasn't the science that bothered me, it was the use of an abstract catch all science point. Which was why for RealScience I wanted to break it apart and have more relevant science points for varikous types of sciences, and then unlock things with those
<acc>
(real, not RSS)
<Agathorn>
What does the R stand for?
<acc>
you know what I mean :P
<Agathorn>
:)
<acc>
:D
<Agathorn>
of course, but watching you squirm was fun
<Agathorn>
I can't see the horizon
<acc>
then it's fine
<acc>
you like underground?
<Pap>
Agathorn: it's still light out by you, no venus to see
<Agathorn>
Pap: and there is that :)
<Agathorn>
acc: nah just a conrete jungle
<acc>
ah, oh
<acc>
would take a picure, but I think that lense does not work well to captchure it
<acc>
capture
<Pap>
I haven't had my telescope out yet this year, need to get a look at Jupiter and the moons when our moon is closer to New
<acc>
I even havn't one
<acc>
but would love to
<taniwha>
I need to get a telescope
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<acc>
pretty expensive these things
<taniwha>
not really
<acc>
same with good cams. love fotography too
<Agathorn>
*can* be pretty expensive things
<taniwha>
telescopes are faily cheep, but stands can get very pricey
<Agathorn>
but don't have to be
<acc>
no? I mean yeah, you can get some toys that kinda work for kids. but a really good one with some good lenses?
<UmbralRaptor>
Depends. $400 for a good dob can be a lot for some of us.
<Agathorn>
good optics always cost more though
<taniwha>
UmbralRaptor: yes, but it /is/ a precision instrument
<acc>
yeah, that's the point
<taniwha>
and really, unless you go crazy on diameter, you probably won't pay too much more
<taniwha>
but support for the scope can get very pricey very fast
<acc>
and it's not cheap for good. don't wanna question the pricing or quality
<taniwha>
(tracking etc)
<acc>
s/or/for/
<Qboid>
acc meant to say: and it's not cheap ffor good. don't wanna question the pricing or quality
<Agathorn>
I want one with a camera built in - my old one I could mount my SLR to it, but the whole process was such a pain
<Agathorn>
plus with a camera built in you can do still and video which is just cool
<acc>
and anyways, my list of things I _need_ to buy is still long enough. will take some while until I can start things from the _want_ list :D
<Agathorn>
:)
<taniwha>
meanwhile, I spent ~$800 on noise canceling headphones the other day
<acc>
Agathorn: btw decided about your GUI/font size issue?
<taniwha>
(and the only reason I didn't by a nice telescope I saw while in Australia was I wasn't sure how I'd get it home)
<acc>
taniwha: wow
<taniwha>
well, that, and I thought the price might be too /low/ (worried about quality)
<taniwha>
acc: sennheiser momentum wireless
<acc>
you like waering my PC plus all devices around it on your ears
<taniwha>
and it resulted in 7.5h of bliss on the plane from Cairns to Osaka
<taniwha>
(and 1.5h from Brisbane to Cairns)
<acc>
I hope they have a hell of a quality
* UmbralRaptor
wonders if his car is still worth more than $800.
<acc>
and don't break for 200 years
<taniwha>
16-22000
<taniwha>
and yeah, I hope they don't break any time soon
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-engineconfigs: https://git.io/vHHaJ
<github>
RealismOverhaul/pap1723-engineconfigs 0f6d56f Pap: Change S1.5400 Config name to S1_5400...
<Agathorn>
It is actually pretty nice, easier to layout complex designs, and scales much easier (though on a small screen things can get pretty darned small)
<Agathorn>
and it just plain looks more professional without my really trying :)
<acc>
looks cleaner, nice :)
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<Pap>
I like it Agathorn|Food
<Pap>
Agathorn|Food: do you need any help with any of the NASA programs? I did a TON of research a while ago and it is sitting in a spreadsheet
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<xShadowx>
Pap: how does one sit 'in' a spreadsheet? do you get your own cell? is it cramped?
<Pap>
nah, you can incerase the column width and row height to make things roomier
<xShadowx>
sounds very 2 dimensional
<Bornholio>
as many sheets as you want for 3d
<xShadowx>
guess you wouldnt get cold with all those sheets ;p
<Bornholio>
you have no problems taking a sheet or giving a sheet
<Pap>
xShadowx: your command over puns never fails to entertain me
<soundnfury>
Pap: he does have a winning formula
<soundnfury>
but can he drop references?
<soundnfury>
are his puns off the chart?
<soundnfury>
or is there a regression to the mean?
<Pap>
he always manages to pivot to a new pun
<soundnfury>
but always following the same format
<soundnfury>
no basic visual humour here
<soundnfury>
definitely bedtime, I'm gonna go off the grid
<xShadowx>
it helps when you have the right outlook
<acc>
g'night soundnfury
<acc>
xShadowx: can you see some thunderbirds or firefoxes from up there? :P
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<xShadowx>
who was the first to discover Excel? Christopher Columnbus
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<Pap>
Nice save NathanKell!
<xShadowx>
what does a baby excel sheet drink? formula
<NathanKell>
Agathorn|Food: Niiice!
<NathanKell>
Pap: Thanks! Very surprised I got something out of it tbh :)
<NathanKell>
Pap: As for unlocking nodes with money...IMO science 'points' are not representative of _knowledge_
<NathanKell>
That would be silly
<NathanKell>
THey're representative of your reputation with the scientific community
<Pap>
Ah, that is a good way to look at it
<NathanKell>
do more for scientists, and more of them devote time and energy to researching what's important to you
<NathanKell>
IMO the career should balance as so:
<NathanKell>
You have to keep the government happy (rep) and the scientists happy (sci)
<NathanKell>
govt gives you money based on rep
<NathanKell>
BARIS style
<NathanKell>
so the challenge is balancing crewed and uncrewed missions to keep both happy
<Pap>
So something like a State Funding mod, but heavily modified
<xShadowx>
mod idea, how useful? take away ability to research tech nodes, auto unlock over time
<xShadowx>
randomish ofc
<blowfish>
perhaps if you're a smaller nation trying to run a space program off of imported parts
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Agathorn|Food is now known as Agathorn
<Agathorn>
looks like the consensus is positive on the new UI :)
<xShadowx>
i hate it
<xShadowx>
there :P
<Agathorn>
Pap: RE research.. i'm not there yet :) Mostly just using either dummy data or very quick data.. heck in the screenshot it isn't even data at all.. just static text for mockup
<Agathorn>
just trying to get a feel for what data I want to present and hopw
<Agathorn>
how*
<Pap>
ok, well, let me know if you want the stuff at some point. I have it and it might be of some use for you
<Agathorn>
right now i'm playing around trying to decide really what a space flight program encompases
<Agathorn>
I have high level ideas of what I want it to be..but whenever you start to actrually DO it, those high level ideas turn into smoke lol
<Agathorn>
huh so project scorpio is the xbone one x? I'm confused. I thought it was intended to be a whole new console generation
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: haven't been watching your streams (despite your blatant attempts to distract me) but I get the impression from chats that TF has been hurting you in this race :(
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: It happens :)
<NathanKell>
I know Leudaimon got some early TF hits
<NathanKell>
sorry, had to perform some linux surgery
<NathanKell>
kernel update broke the tuner driver
<Agathorn>
Well if things are "working right" the early days should be hard, but get better!
<NathanKell>
Yep, and I'm still on the first rocketry node :]
<Agathorn>
I sometimes think the difficulty with TF is actually *too* easy early on
<NathanKell>
agree
<NathanKell>
well, maybe
<NathanKell>
I haven't flown un-r&d'd engines
<NathanKell>
because I don't like rolling for a 7 and above on 2d6 :P
<Agathorn>
well my goal had always been to imick somehwat that NASA chart
<Agathorn>
in my mind a large portion of those early rockets should be having a date with mr range safety
<Pap>
NathanKell: do you have any info you can link me to on th emissing RD-107/108 that needs to be added back in? I will take care of it if you do
<NathanKell>
Pap: Look back in the history of that file, early on I removed a config
<Pap>
That is an awesome chart
<Pap>
I did NathanKell, I don't think it goes back far enough
<NathanKell>
Poor Atlas B :D
<Agathorn>
heh
<Agathorn>
and A
<Agathorn>
and C
<Agathorn>
even D is probably 50/50 if you add it up
<Agathorn>
I look at that chart and frankly i'm shocked M<Ercury didn't even in distaster
<NathanKell>
oh crap a git rename did it
<NathanKell>
sorry Pap
<Agathorn>
s/even/end
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: I look at that chart and frankly i'm shocked M<Ercury didn't end in distaster
<Agathorn>
s/M<Ercury/Mercury
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: I look at that chart and frankly i'm shocked Mercury didn't even in distaster
<Agathorn>
arg
<Agathorn>
I'm chasiong my tail on that one
<Agathorn>
multi sed?
<Pap>
Agathorn: hearing John Glenn talk about the first time they went to go watch a launch and it exploded is revealing. At that point, it was at less than 50% success!
<Agathorn>
Pap I remember listeining to some interview or another that chilled me.. whoever it was, some 'naut, dont' recall, was quite frank about the fact that at the time they really didn't know if they would live or not
<Agathorn>
like you could see the brutal honesty in what he was saying
<Agathorn>
and so matter of fact too.. it was chilling
<Agathorn>
wonder if those guys played the casinos :)
<Pap>
Agathorn: Yes, a different mentality of test pilots back then. The fact that the people on Apollo 8 gave themselves a 50/50 chance of making it home
<Agathorn>
oh that might have been the one actually
<Agathorn>
Pap it was Neil Armstrong speakign in the Apollo 11 VR experience.. he said they thought they had a 90% chance of making it back to Earth and a 50/50 chance of making a successful landing
<Pap>
ah, gotcha
<Agathorn>
so ok 90% is pretty good but still!
<Agathorn>
"Oh yeah buddy so we're goign to dire you of here and you knoiw.. 90% chance ya make it home again"
<Agathorn>
s/dire/fire
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: "Oh yeah buddy so we're goign to fire you of here and you knoiw.. 90% chance ya make it home again"
<Agathorn>
I almost want to do that VR thingy again now.. its so great
<Agathorn>
have you seen it?
<Pap>
I think it was Buzz Aldrin that said right before launch as you are sitting on the rocket, it goes through your head that you are sitting on a bomb made by the lowest bidder.
<Agathorn>
think he said rocket but yeah :)
<Pap>
I saw Scott Manley do it, is it worth it without VR?
<Agathorn>
nah I don't think so
<Agathorn>
in VR it is amazing
<Pap>
That's what I would have thought
<Agathorn>
it was also the first time I saw JFK's whole speech
<Agathorn>
I mean for the average personm I think even seeing it in 2D is good - watching someone else play it I mean
<Agathorn>
but if you already know everythign there is to know it isn't quite as powerful
<Agathorn>
but in VR it is definitely amazing and emotional
<Agathorn>
not ashamed to say I teared up a abit :)
<Sigma88>
so, I looked at Space Engine and it lists Castor Aa to have: radius = 2.3 mass = 2.15 and temp=8970
<Sigma88>
but wiki says radius = 2.4 mass = 2.76 and Temp = 10286
<Sigma88>
>_>
<Sigma88>
also, wiki lists castor Aa to weigh less than Ba >_>
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<Theysen>
just the one big reason to get RO to 1.3 asap is the stupid runway seams. my god
<acharles>
I tried a plane once in RO...
<acharles>
in 1.2
<acharles>
I reverted and never tried again.
<Theysen>
it's so much fun but those seems are random and maybe you get lucky and take off before it or you ram your aircraft into oblivion
<acharles>
The runway for me is usually split in 5 evenly sized segments
<acharles>
maybe 4
<acharles>
But either way, using it is pointless.
<acharles>
And on top of that, I don’t really like designing planes
<Theysen>
and the strange veering when absolute symmetry is the case also puts me off
<Theysen>
Nah I'm doing some planes for the manned stuff :)
<xShadowx>
or someone makes a mod to ort the runway stuff to 1.2.2 ;p
<xShadowx>
s/ort/port
<Qboid>
xShadowx meant to say: or someone makes a mod to port the runway stuff to 1.2.2 ;p
<Theysen>
is that possible?
<Theysen>
should be in a sharedasset right?
<Theysen>
maybe JPLRepo knows that
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<Pap>
o/
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<Theysen>
heyho
<Theysen>
my LEO is getting nicely crowded with all those new sat missions
Borntosleep is now known as Bornholio
<Bornholio>
o/
<Bornholio>
My LEO is only one sat, launched 5 failed to orbits last night, stupid TF
<Theysen>
I don't have many failures anymore somehow
<Theysen>
first sat went completely smooth
<Pap>
Nice Theysen!
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<Pap>
That sounds like a painful day Bornholio
<Bornholio>
thats what i get for making a tight design to early, painfull waiting for tech to upgrade
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<Theysen>
we need to edit the RP-0 OP to contain Ship Manifest for the Film Return Capsule to be reset
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<Bornholio>
Theysen you make the airport thing happen! oh and the fix for science boxes. Only real things from 1.3 .smirk
<Bornholio>
I'm download a clean 1.3 to look at the assets now to soo if its stupid simple and i can do it.
<Theysen_>
Bornholio, science boxes?
<Bornholio>
yeah they are suppose to check everything except other science boxes first for a copy, then get from another science boxx last. makes it so you can gather science in multiple boxes easier
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<Theysen_>
Okay, I don't use that thing anyways if youre tlaking about that ugly white container
<Bornholio>
ah, well convience is the devil.
<Theysen_>
Ship Manifest my god :P
<waerloga>
<3 ship manifest
<Theysen_>
PSA: if you're fairing around a reentry probe gives you odd shapes and you correct that manually it most probably will screw your voxelization and NOT reenter. Be sure to not ignore that ...
<Theysen_>
wow. * your of course
<Bornholio>
if you are...
<Theysen_>
derping english today :)
<Bornholio>
derping english and typing everyday myself
<Bornholio>
science box 1.3 change is not in the config. only localization was diff. now ofr looking for the runway assets
<HypergolicSkunk>
hey folks. is there a way to disable 'hide unpurchased parts' after having started the career?
<Theysen_>
just don't use Filter Extensions
<Theysen_>
those hide the parts in the VAB too
<HypergolicSkunk>
yeah, that's the last thing I want to try :p
<HypergolicSkunk>
there used to be a button for the mod in the sidebar
<Qboid>
[#1413] title: Some stock bodies have peaks that are higher than the time warp limit | For example, Minmus highest points are around 5-6 km, but the timewarp limit is 3 km, making landing at these locations impossible with Principia.... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/1413
<rsparkyc>
the moon
<egg|work|egg>
try setting the timewarp limits accordingly in the Kopernicus configs
<rsparkyc>
thx egg|work|egg, increasing it now
<rsparkyc>
made it 15000 instead of 5000
<Bornholio>
yeah lots of the moon is above 5k
<rsparkyc>
if so, i'll close this and open up a RealSolarSystem bug/pr
<egg|work|egg>
rsparkyc: link to principia#1413 too so that people can find that one if digging; also note my answer to principia#1413; aside from Kopernicus timewarp limit changes (doable now), eventually we just want to control everything :D
<Qboid>
[#1413] title: Some stock bodies have peaks that are higher than the time warp limit | For example, Minmus highest points are around 5-6 km, but the timewarp limit is 3 km, making landing at these locations impossible with Principia.... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1413
<Qboid>
[#1413] title: Some stock bodies have peaks that are higher than the time warp limit | For example, Minmus highest points are around 5-6 km, but the timewarp limit is 3 km, making landing at these locations impossible with Principia.... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1413
<egg|work|egg>
with the reunification of the egg and ferram4 sectors!
<rsparkyc>
yeah, that would be sweet
<ferram4>
kay
<egg|work|egg>
Mr. Karman, tear down this line!
<egg|work|egg>
ferram4: I still wouldn't move the stuff that touches the ground though
<rsparkyc>
haha
<egg|work|egg>
rsparkyc: but that's further away; definitely not in Cauchy.
<rsparkyc>
yeah, i figured
<Bornholio>
Had a completion on first soalr sat, i don't have any solar cell tech yet much less any on a sat...
<egg|work|egg>
Cauchy is going to be pretty much current master I think
<rsparkyc>
cool, i rely on lamont for my builds
<egg|work|egg>
the next version might see the fruits of the ongoing effort to get our own rendering code depending on how fast that goes
<egg|work|egg>
uh, I mean the version after Cauchy
<egg|work|egg>
if so, there would be downsampling, which would allow histories not to lag like hell
<Rokker>
stratochief: progress launch coming
<egg|work|egg>
so that's possibly something to look forward to in Cayley (maybe it won't make it in Cayley and it'll be in the following one though)
<stratochief>
Rokker: uncrewed soviet supplies?
<Theysen_>
Starwaster, the moon
<Rokker>
stratochief: the only time Russia has made any progress
<Rokker>
:P
<stratochief>
that one has a single engine for the core stage, right? or am I remembering what Soyuz 2 is incorrectly?
<Rokker>
stratochief: um... do you mean single chamber, because no, it's a pretty standard soyuz
<Rokker>
stratochief: Soyuz 2-1-v uses a single NK-33 and no boosters, but it's barely a member of the Soyuz family
<SirKeplan>
Yeah, regular soyus 2 is just a modernised soyuz with new engines and a staged combustion upper stage.
<SirKeplan>
soyuz*
<Rokker>
"modernized"
<SirKeplan>
relatively
<SirKeplan>
of course it's still a 1950s ICBM at heart :D
<rsparkyc>
egg|work|egg, that worked, i'll close that issue
<rsparkyc>
thx, much appreciated
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<Starwaster>
bornholio: apparently the reason for the dual HIADs in that paper is because there was concern that after the aerocapture phase, the HIAD might be brittle and glassified so the first one is discarded. (so, also, they may not be very re-useable)
<Bornholio>
I can imagine, should they have a limited ablator and reduced temps?
<Bornholio>
Was the primary one Phenolic or Silica
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 created pap1723-BDBApollo (+1 new commit): https://git.io/vH7fn
<github>
RealismOverhaul/pap1723-BDBApollo 481f64d Pap: BDB Apollo Configs...
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 opened pull request #1677: BDB Apollo Configs (master...pap1723-BDBApollo) https://git.io/vH7fC
<Pap>
If anyone is interested in the BDB Apollo parts, there are configs for all of them. It does require some testing as I completed them a while ago
<Probus>
How hard would it be to build a mod that would have your dishes always point toward your line of communication?
<Qboid>
Probus: Pap left a message for you in #RO [06.06.2017 16:10:27]: "I have a couple of questions for you on the balancing you did for ETT whenever you have a chance"
<Probus>
Hey Pap o/
<Pap>
HI Probus, sorry to see that you are home from Hawaii!
<Starwaster>
bornholio not sure, apparently the brittleness is an issue with loitering months in orbit waiting for the crew to arrive
<Starwaster>
Probus: Remote Tech USED to do that
<Probus>
Really Starwaster? I did not know that. So that answers my question.
<Starwaster>
it might not be too hard depending on how the dish model is constructed. If it's got a well built hierarchy then you could just isolate the joint transform and point that where you want it pointed
<Starwaster>
the dish part would then have to be a child of the joint
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<Starwaster>
I dunno why they took it out of remotetech. THe original code is probably still in the repository but you'd have to go back about 2 years to find it
<Pap>
Probus: how would you force the craft to turn to focus the dish, or keep the dish from turning into (clipping) the craft?
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<BadRocketsCo>
Greetings!
<Probus>
I was thinking it would just be cosmetic Pap. Hi BadRocketsCo o/
<Pap>
gotcha!
<Starwaster>
pap, by imposing limits as to how far it can turn
<Starwaster>
take it's deployed state from the animation and apply the limits from that point
<xShadowx>
physically point? assuming the dish model is seperate from the rest of framework / has a transform, you can use the ModuleDeployablePart (basicly like solars do) and itll spin to target
<Probus>
It would be a cool effect, don't you think xShadowx?
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<xShadowx>
pointing whole vessel to transmit target for fixed position dishes, def would need code
<BadRocketsCo>
Anyone here in the mood for some IT support? :D
<Probus>
If you to force dish rotation to match, for realism (or lose connection), that would be daunting.
<xShadowx>
BadRocketsCo: i charge bacon for services
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<xShadowx>
Probus: heh would be nice for some cases with fixed dishes to need to rotate vessel, possibly placing vessel in a position that raises boiloff rates
<xShadowx>
on that note id like scansat to take into account angle to planet
<xShadowx>
letting me sweep wider bits (maybe losing quality of scan)
<Bornholio>
Cacteye mod has code for burning parts up if the scope is pointed at the sun...
<BadRocketsCo>
xShadowx: can the bacon be sent by mail? :D
<xShadowx>
yep, easy enough to just calculate angle of sun vs part
<xShadowx>
then pop ;3
<xShadowx>
loved that
<Bornholio>
Wonder if the code that handles aiming at planet for science could return drving signal for an antenna
<xShadowx>
when a dish picks up a signal, and its at the edge of its cone of view (IRL btw) signal gets weaker doesnt it?
<xShadowx>
be nice if that was in ksp too
<stratochief>
Rokker: SirKeplan ahh thanks. strange, for some reason I'd thought Soyuz-2-1v was more like a standard soyuz, like with side boosters still r-7 style
<Rokker>
stratochief: nah that would be far too useful
<stratochief>
Rokker: looks like I was thinking the Soyuz 2.3v , or Soyuz-3
<Theysen_>
stratochief, thanks for that picture that's awesome
<stratochief>
Theysen_: yeah, I always thought it was an interesting way to modernize the R-7, swapping over to NK-33 style single bell engines
<SirKeplan>
yeah they came up with quite a wide array of interesting Soyuz derivs
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<Agathorn>
isn't liek every russian rocket an R-7 derivitive?
<Agathorn>
Its like they only ever had one rocket, and two rocket engines.. everything has just been a derivitive of those :)
<Agathorn>
Starwaster, Probus that feature ws intentionally removed from RT IIRC because of clipping
<Agathorn>
having a dish not rotate is IMHO more palatable than one that rotates and clips into the rocket
<Starwaster>
agathorn, like I said, that can be fixed
<Agathorn>
I think it will be more challenging than you expect
<Agathorn>
its akin to the clothes clipping issues games always struggle with :)
<Agathorn>
someone will always find a combination that doesn't work
<Agathorn>
I mean limits will reduce the chances, but seems hard to cover all possabilities..and then if it is limited, then isn't it almost as bad as not turning at all?
<Agathorn>
what if it only turns halfway to the target?
<Agathorn>
I'm not neccesarily opposed to the idea as long as its optional I guess :)
<Agathorn>
just seems like one of those things where you are better off with some suspension of disbelief
<Probus>
Yeah Agathorn. Just cosmetic for the most part. If it clips, it would defeat the purpose.
<BadRocketsCo>
Blargh why is my laptop doing this...
* xShadowx
stabs Agathorn's suspension of disbelief with realism
<Agathorn>
like KSP doesn't already have tons of other visual issues that are at odds with realism
<Bornholio>
what is laptop doing?
<Agathorn>
an antenna is like .001% of the problem :)
<xShadowx>
my vote is rotate with limits, no clipping, if still not poined, no connection until vessel rotates (possibly part of the same targetting code)
<Agathorn>
and what happens when you need your vessel orientated a certain way that is at odds with the antenna?
<xShadowx>
antenna magically not caring direction hides other game mechanics, such as you can always rotate to best direction for no boiloff
<Agathorn>
part of the problem is that despite the flexability of building, sometimes you have no chouice but to mount the antenna in a non-optimal way due to game restionctions..then there is the problem that RT really doesn't well simulate the fact that almost every spacecraft launched has a low power high range omni antenna whose sole purpose is control transmissions
<Agathorn>
I'd like to see comm sim more accurately reflect reality before forcing antenna pointing.. IMHO
<Agathorn>
as cool as RT is, it is still more gamey than real
<Bornholio>
wonder if JAXA's venus probe will still be alive next time passed.
<xShadowx>
c# awaits you :P
<Agathorn>
heh if I was to develop for KSP again I would add engine uprating to TF first, and finish RealScience second
<BadRocketsCo>
Bornholio: weird graphics glitches. KSP and some other games don't work while another game with 3d models works
<Bornholio>
Dx11 or openGL?
<BadRocketsCo>
Both
<stratochief>
Agathorn: the Proton is not R-7 derived. same with the N-1. not that those were as clearly successful as the R-7 line, but still
<Agathorn>
Did the N-1 actually fly?
<Bornholio>
Graphics card overheating? use Speccy or a utility to find GX card temps
<Agathorn>
and I forgot about Proton my bad
<stratochief>
Agathorn: it sure did, for at least a minute or two a few times :P
<Agathorn>
:)
<regex>
Also Angara
<BadRocketsCo>
Bornholio: nope. No overheating.
<stratochief>
that is akin to saying that the entire american rocket engine fleet is nothing but variations of the S-3D engine
<regex>
although Russia's economy really only supports upgrading the Soyuz every so often
<stratochief>
regex: also, the thing that threw the soviet shuttle to space. Energia?
<regex>
And failed to launch Polyus
<Bornholio>
what games glitch? other than KSP
<regex>
Also Zenit and Rokot
<stratochief>
Bornholio: literally none
<Bornholio>
pink mask, vertexes or flickering
<regex>
Yeah, I've never had a game glitch, ever, until KSP
<stratochief>
armor and capes always flow elegantly over RPG character's. always. no clipping or tom-fuckery
<regex>
confirming
<Bornholio>
BadRocketsCo Has the system updated anyhardware drivers recently (including sound)
<BadRocketsCo>
Bornholio: nope.
<Bornholio>
Does it glitch in Dx9 mode (no command line switches)
<Bornholio>
ah remote troublshooting its my favorite. .sarcasm_OFF
<Probus>
My laptop died yesterday Bornholio. Went on vacation with it, np. Got home... Dead.
<stratochief>
Probus: heyyyy. same thing happened with my media centre. came home to its corpse. I'd even shut it down properly and unplugged it while we were away.
<stratochief>
BadRocketsCo: what issue are you having? reading scrollback, it seemed like it was happening when you have multiple games open?
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<NathanKell|WORK>
o/
<stratochief>
@gw.valvesoftware.co
<Bornholio>
Cosmic rays are powerful in flight ... True and .Tinfoilhat
<Probus>
\o
<stratochief>
confirmed, |WORK
<BadRocketsCo>
stratochief: nah, some games work, some don't
<NathanKell|WORK>
regex: IIRC Energia worked fine, Polyus itself failed
<stratochief>
was Polyus the death laser for satellites satellite?
<stratochief>
or did it have nukes?
* stratochief
sometimes blends sci-fi with history in his memory. he might be thinking of Space Cowboys
<stratochief>
BadRocketsCo: hmm. multiple screens? someone might be stepping on someone else's memory allocation?
<stratochief>
two windows trying to be full screen at the same time? looks odd BadRocketsCo
<BadRocketsCo>
Huh, is that what it is?
<stratochief>
NathanKell|AWAY: nice! glad my memory wasn't too terrible on that one. good ole' orbital death lasers. you never see them coming
<NathanKell|WORK>
^_^
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: was hoping for a big Valve announcement at E3 so we wouldn't be in suspense anymore
<NathanKell|WORK>
Heh, sorry. Not really the kind of thing we do :]
<Pap>
I know, no need for you guys to go that route
<NathanKell|WORK>
I mean, we did launch Steam Direct today
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<stratochief>
the outerspace treaty forbids nuking the Moon, but perhaps you're allowed to tattoo/burn a big hammer and sickle on it?
<stratochief>
oh man, my mispelling (that I googled) makes me want to open a bike shop called Hammer and Cycle
<Bornholio>
Weapons in space, same treaty, maybe ground based
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: if you have some time, can you check out RP-0#667
<Qboid>
[#667] title: Blue Skies Research Based Tech Tree | Some of you have been playing around with the tech tree that I made and have provided great feedback on it. As I have played through it, there have been some nice things and there have been some things that feel clunky with it. After some discussions with @NathanKell and @stratochief66 we discussed some ideas on how to improve things. I have
<stratochief>
I wonder who got saddled with RP-0#666
<Qboid>
[#666] title: Add stability tech level early controllable core | Given #649, I doubled the baseline volume of this procedural. It still is super dense compared to Ranger I. I wonder if the volume for the ranger core was calculated including the metal structural pa... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/666
<Bornholio>
is the tree in current master?
<stratochief>
Bornholio: nope.
<Pap>
no Bornholio
<Starwaster>
badrocketsco I don't usually jump to pointing at hardware (as opposed to software) but I'd start looking at the possibility that the card itself has issues, physically
<xShadowx>
NathanKell|WORK: allowing you to sneak on irc at wok now?;p
<stratochief>
BadRocketsCo: and that is only when two games are open? is this with two screens or one? both full screen'd or no?
<Pap>
BadRocketsCo: that is a graphics card issue I think. I had a faulty GeForce one time and I would get neverending polygons shooting out like that as well
<Bornholio>
but runs other 3d fine...
<Pap>
wait, what? It is onlt broken in Unity games?
<Pap>
s/onlt/only
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: wait, what? It is only broken in Unity games?
<BadRocketsCo>
stratochief: just one game open
<Bornholio>
Image that Unity having graphics problems!
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Commented.
<NathanKell|WORK>
as I said there, and as you've intimated, not sure 8D76 is worth it
<BadRocketsCo>
Pap: not only unity games, no.
<BadRocketsCo>
In fact another unity game works well
<BadRocketsCo>
It is seemingly random
<Bornholio>
BadRocketsCo Okay, ID your Graphics card. At least general mfg. (Nvidia/AMD/Intel
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<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: I would agree with you on not including 8D76, not really worth it
<BadRocketsCo>
Bornholio: Intel HD Graphics 5000
<Bornholio>
I'm sorry
<Bornholio>
oh, unity complaint lobbed at AMD's all the time.
<Bornholio>
BadRocketsCo Not seeing any particular complaints or issues for that card/chipset.
<BadRocketsCo>
Hmm
<BadRocketsCo>
Strange indeed
<Bornholio>
Did you check if running it default (DX9) has the same results?
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<Starwaster>
. o O ( put it in rice... )
<BadRocketsCo>
Bornholio: not really. Too wrecked for today too. But thanks for the suggestions!
<Bornholio>
Good Luck!
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<Starwaster>
hey Bornholio, were any of those pictures of you landing something big on Mars?
<Bornholio>
shouldn't be. My imigure has some but not with Inflatable yet
<Bornholio>
I use Imgur as a dumping ground, but big collections are hard to do sorted
<Bornholio>
Want one?
<Starwaster>
yeah. land something big :)
<Bornholio>
with inflatable?
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<soundnfury>
o/ all
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-engineconfigs: https://git.io/vH71u
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-engineconfigs: https://git.io/vH71a
<Pap>
o/ soundnfury
<soundnfury>
heya Pap. Just firing up my your-tech-tree install
<Pap>
soundnfury: nice! MAJOR changes coming today
<soundnfury>
ooh, what sort of things do they change?
<soundnfury>
(will I need to start over?)
<Pap>
If you are anjoying your playthrough, you do not need to start over, there is a lot of movement in the early (first 6 nodes) tree in respect to the engines and the other feeback you have all provided
<waerloga>
that the historical progression tech tree?
<xShadowx>
i love metric system, and how a meter changes its size by what color it is :D
* xShadowx
goes back to designing new rover
<waerloga>
I'm thinking about installing the updated contracts system that NathanKell was using too
<waerloga>
looked interesting
* xShadowx
nods and wants it too
<Pap>
waerloga: it is similar in design to the HP Tech Tree, but much more massive and complex in scale
<Pap>
waerloga: the contracts are included in the newest release of RP-0
<waerloga>
ah, where do I find your tech tree then pap?
<waerloga>
oh, it's just your fork of RP-0...ok
<waerloga>
or not..hmmm...
<Pap>
waerloga: there is another fork called Pap-TechTree
<Pap>
However, wait until a little later to play with it. Also, disclaimer. It is FAR from working well. There is no tech balance, there is no time balance
<waerloga>
k, cuz I did run across the HPTechTree and thought that was a nice idea
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<JPLRepo>
Theysen: What do I know about?
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<xShadowx>
JPLRepo: was refering/asking if the runway fixes in 1.3 were a sharedasset or such, as a reply to me commenting about someone should port the fixes back to 1.2.2 :)
<JPLRepo>
Ah ok. No they aren't
<xShadowx>
ode?
<xShadowx>
code
<JPLRepo>
They are assets. But not ones you can mod easily. and they are located in the assets of the game that under the EULA would require decompiling, which is a break of the copyright.
<xShadowx>
:|
<JPLRepo>
They are instantiated via the code Unity scenes. and very difficult to swap out. Not easy at all.
<xShadowx>
what was the accual fix? model work or repositioning?
<JPLRepo>
The easy solution would be to make the small adjustments to get RO working in 1.3. Most mods only require small changes and a recompile from 1.2.2 to 1.3
<JPLRepo>
Model work. they are complete models. So it is not about adjusting object positioning in the game world, rather fixing the models.
<xShadowx>
damn you :P
<xShadowx>
<3 i say with love
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<JPLRepo>
All good.
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<LittleJoe>
Are we there yet?
<LittleJoe>
--> RO-0
<LittleJoe>
: )
* xShadowx
puts LittleJoe in the trunk
<Bornholio>
I see it on CKAN.
<LittleJoe>
:O
<xShadowx>
rp0 no, can fetch off repo if you want it right now
<Bornholio>
I install it from CKAN
<xShadowx>
oh ;3
<xShadowx>
ignore me :D
<LittleJoe>
nah, I'm waiting for CKAN
<Theysen_>
Thanks very much Thomas by the way for the Kopernicus Expansion <3
* xShadowx
headdesk
<LittleJoe>
so I don't have to worry about stuff not working later on....
<xShadowx>
LittleJoe: he just said its ok ckan
<xShadowx>
on
<LittleJoe>
:O
<LittleJoe>
\o/
<Bornholio>
V0.53 available for v1.2.2KSP
* xShadowx
clicks to get it too
<Bornholio>
they have work to do they say.
<Bornholio>
Master has more they say
<xShadowx>
its ksp, itll never be finished <3
<LittleJoe>
what's the name of it in CKAN?
<Bornholio>
Master beat me, no like master
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<Bornholio>
starwaster i'll make a lil post for you with the lander in it. 68T with Methane ISRU and MAV
* LittleJoe
is trying to figure out what Ro-0 is called in CKAN....
<regex>
RP-0
<Theysen_>
LittleJoe, RP-0
<LittleJoe>
I did -_-
<regex>
Or just type in "realistic"
<regex>
that usually gets most of them
<LittleJoe>
ahh, that was it...
<LittleJoe>
I was doing realism
<Bornholio>
Realistic Progression Zero
<LittleJoe>
yup, thanks ;)
<regex>
best bet when using CKAN is to type in "realis" and go from there.
<LittleJoe>
so all I need to do is install it any anything it sugests right?
<LittleJoe>
or just it :P
<LittleJoe>
nm, I got it....
<LittleJoe>
oh.... options....
<Bornholio>
caution landmines (1.3 only mods)
<LittleJoe>
some of the reccomended ones can be 1.3 only?
<LittleJoe>
anybody
<Bornholio>
I had to retry and stage it, something crashed when i bulk installed
<LittleJoe>
know the difference between procedural fairing and the Everything+ version?
<LittleJoe>
Everything!*
<Bornholio>
Both
<LittleJoe>
ok ;)
<Bornholio>
& Parts
<LittleJoe>
I'm finding the only reccomended mods I'm disabling are the stockalike parts and mechjeb....
<LittleJoe>
recommended*
<LittleJoe>
is mechjeb kinda required?
<Theysen_>
LittleJoe, install the whole suite
<Bornholio>
Vens worked, MJ worked (2.6.0.0)
<LittleJoe>
;)
<Theysen_>
CKSAN pulls correct versions compatible to 1.2.2
<Bornholio>
not yesterday for me for something.
<Theysen_>
that's a bummer
<Theysen_>
on the very first days of RO it pulled some false mods cause the modders didn't make their version files correct
<Bornholio>
All the Required came over clean
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<egg|zzz|egg>
JPLRepo: on the subject of principia#1413, NathanKell|AWAY tells me to ask you for the current collider layer list
<Qboid>
[#1413] title: Some stock bodies have peaks that are higher than the time warp limit | For example, Minmus highest points are around 5-6 km, but the timewarp limit is 3 km, making landing at these locations impossible with Principia.... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1413
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<egg|zzz|egg>
(I need to know whether a collider is a "groundy" thing, i.e. building or terrain or the like)
<egg|zzz|egg>
as opposed to part/physobject
<JPLRepo>
For which colliders?
<egg|zzz|egg>
JPLRepo: List of which layers are used for which collider types. Parts, terrain, kerbals, wheels, buildings, etc.
<JPLRepo>
oh I should read the issue... haha. I'll see what I can add to that issue
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<egg|zzz|egg>
JPLRepo: nah, but I know how I want to handle the issue
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<egg|zzz|egg>
I shouldn't stop managing vessels when the frame rotates
<egg|zzz|egg>
I need on the other hand to know about collisions with a groundlike object in order to do that
<egg|zzz|egg>
(because of our pile-up logic, which is too complicated to conveniently eggsplain on IRC this late in the evening)
<egg|zzz|egg>
JPLRepo: otoh, to properly handle said collisions, I need to know which layers contain groundy things
<egg|zzz|egg>
JPLRepo: which is why I'm asking you, because NK doesn't remember
<JPLRepo>
and it's not something easily obtainable. as a lot of colliders are added on instantiation of the various objects. I'd have to assign time to this and get back to you.
<JPLRepo>
There is a list on the forum. It's probably accurate.
<egg|zzz|egg>
<NathanKell> Wtf, just look in the layers list Edit project settings, tags and layers
<JPLRepo>
If you want specifics of certain objects are assigned to specific layers. I'd have to compile that.
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* egg|zzz|egg
summons NathanKell from the void*
<NathanKell>
JPLRepo: Sorry, I got only "there is no layer list" and was very confused
<NathanKell>
I see now what you mean
<egg|zzz|egg>
mostly I just need to know where the terrain and buildings live; 28 for terrain, where are the buildings?
<JPLRepo>
ah ok
<JPLRepo>
Local Scenery as I recall. have to check
<Bornholio>
starwaster dropped the album and images in a comment on DRE http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/50296-122-deadly-reentry-v760-june-9-2017-the-ariel-edition-pre-release/&page=214#comment-3090709
<Pap>
OK, major Tech Tree update for the new tree! Please read the changes, download and test the hell out of it!
<JPLRepo>
egg|zzz|egg: Yes buildings are Local Scenery
<Pap>
RP-0#667
<Qboid>
[#667] title: Blue Skies Research Based Tech Tree | Some of you have been playing around with the tech tree that I made and have provided great feedback on it. As I have played through it, there have been some nice things and there have been some things that feel clunky with it. After some discussions with @NathanKell and @stratochief66 we discussed some ideas on how to improve things. I have
<JPLRepo>
egg|zzz|egg: Yes I know how to get a layers list. I thought you were asking for specific objects and what layers they are on. Buildings are Local Scenery Layer. Is that all?
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<egg|zzz|egg>
well, the slightly higher-level problem is "determining whether a vessel touches the ground"---for those purposes a building or any such thing that's fixed to the ground is the ground
<NathanKell>
Unless it's changed, buildings are on the scenery layer still
<NathanKell>
so one layer to rule them all
<NathanKell>
(or are PQ colliders on another layer?)
<NathanKell>
dang, like I said, forgot >.>
<JPLRepo>
checking.. and you can't be expected to remember everything. NK
<NathanKell>
Of course I can! :P
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: well that forum list says TerrainColliders 28 (but what's in a name)
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: will contact via the wheel register in the part collision list, or need I look elsewhere too?
<LittleJoe>
I'm crashing : (
<LittleJoe>
installed everything RO-0 said to...
<NathanKell>
then yeah, local scenery and terrain must be separated. I have some memory of something terrain-y being on 15 tho..
<LittleJoe>
I'm running 1.2.2
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: Layer 15 Local Scenery
<NathanKell>
Aha
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
ok, glad that stuck
<LittleJoe>
would mods that are only compatible with 1.3 be an issue?
<NathanKell>
WHeels...well, wheels are a pain. They'll probably register the collision, but if you're not scared of module checking, you can check isInGroundContact or whatever the partmodule field is
<NathanKell>
LittleJoe: Yes, you not being on 1.3.
<LittleJoe>
one of them is required by RO-0....
<JPLRepo>
Yes PQS and buildings are all Local Scenery layer
<NathanKell>
Wonder what is on 28 then--scaled space scenery?
<NathanKell>
LittleJoe: No, the 1.2.2 version of it is required by RP-0.
<LittleJoe>
right, I'm seeing Ven's Stock part Revamp as 1.3.99 installed
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: They'll probably register the collision << is that nondeterministic? or is it just something that I need to eggsperiment with to check
<egg|zzz|egg>
(aka just how much of a pain are they)
<JPLRepo>
those that are not in localspace. yes the scaled space objects are on that layer.
<LittleJoe>
if I try to uninstall it it makes me uninstall Ro-0 :P
<JPLRepo>
So the scaled space objects are on Scaled Scenery Layer. The Local Space layer contains the scenery/buildings/PQS that is in Localspace
<NathanKell>
JPLRepo: Aha! Coolz
<egg|zzz|egg>
JPLRepo: ah so terrain colliders aren't on the terrain collider layer? :D
<NathanKell>
yeah, that makes sense / coheres with fragmented memory
<Bornholio>
Vens worked for me yesterday
<LittleJoe>
well, it would work fine if I could get the right version...
<LittleJoe>
and KSP AVC doesn't even have a 1.2.2 version....
<NathanKell>
egg|work|egg: Probably as in "seems reasonable they would, because they do have wheel colliders, but I don't remember, and also, they're wheels, man"
<JPLRepo>
I can't find anything on Terrain Collider layer right now. but quite busy. I'll have a look a bit later see what I can find.
<egg|zzz|egg>
JPLRepo: well I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it were a legacy thing from where the terrain collision got moved
<JPLRepo>
yeah.. I'm thinking we might have a free layer... but I'll check it later
<egg|zzz|egg>
regex: will also mail it to colleagues if you don't mind :-p
<regex>
egg|zzz|egg feel free.
<egg|zzz|egg>
(I have a colleague who plays RSS and just started using principia)
<regex>
nice!
<regex>
I want to try out a science mode game in RP-0, see how that runs. Unfortunately Dead Cells just dropped the next update so that may not start for a few days.
<LittleJoe>
just did a dependancy only install and Vens was the only one on 1.3 and it crashed....
<Starwaster>
bornholio, what did you do, take off and land a short distance away?
<Pap>
regex: going to try it with the new tech tree?
<Bornholio>
yes only way to get clear of it without dropping from altitude
<Bornholio>
starwaster otherwise the drill wouldn't touch
<Starwaster>
currently I'm trying to land a doomed 7 ton rover on Duna (Kerbol 10x) and I really messed up with its CoM and it's flipping and spinning in the air.... it's an ightmare
<Bornholio>
If the NASA version is deflateable Should add that function. Want me to dig the code out of the deflate mod?
<Bornholio>
Yeah, first time in mine spun over and was stable upside down
<LittleJoe>
has anybody here installed RO-0 today without problems?
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<regex>
Pap, yeah, was hoping so.
<Pap>
excellent news
<LittleJoe>
I can't even find an option to install 1.2.2
<regex>
Once my wrist cramps up from the controller again I'll start it up.
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<LittleJoe>
Any suggestions for what to do to get Vens Stock part revamp on the right version?
<LittleJoe>
assuming that's even the problem...
<NathanKell>
I gave you the link. Just download that whole repo, and dig in GameData
<LittleJoe>
The version CKAN says is for 1.2.2 is 1.9.3 and the version in the github link is 1.9.5
<LittleJoe>
and the version that CKAN is installing by default is 1.9.6
<LittleJoe>
very confusing....
<Bornholio>
Ven's 1.9.5 and 1.9.6 both work for 1.2.2KSP
<LittleJoe>
maybe it's not Vens that's the problem then if 1.9.6 is supposed to work
<LittleJoe>
But all I have installed is the dependencies
<Starwaster>
bornholio wow... I finally got it down in.. MOSTLY one piece. my lander frame was weirdly out of alignment which threw my balance way off. Most of it got wrecked on impact (19m/s) but the rover looks like it's in one piece
<Pap>
LittleJoe: what version of Module Manager do you have?
<LittleJoe>
I'm rsinstalling everything at the moment so none :P
<Bornholio>
starwaster Fun. Those giganto chutes i had could only cut my speed to 80, but then again landing 70tons on mars isn't supposed to be easy.
<LittleJoe>
unless that's seperate from CKAN
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<Starwaster>
I only had 7 tons. (well, 11 + the lander with its gigantic tanks of Aerozine)
<Starwaster>
come to think of it I had a lot of surplus prop.... I could have shaved a lot of weight off if I'd taken the time to figure how much I really needed for that landing
<Starwaster>
thank god it was only oversized Duna and not Mars
<Bornholio>
Mars just makes bleeding off velocity for free not free.
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<LittleJoe>
Pap: ok I'm uninstalling everything in gamedata
<Born|toprepdinner>
except squad!
<LittleJoe>
First I'm installing Ro-0 and the recommended mods
<LittleJoe>
Born, was that a warning for me?
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<LittleJoe>
Why must this be so complicated.....
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