<Pap>
Look at that screenshot. That is after exiting and restarting, just sitting there immediately upon load
<Pap>
NathanKell: There is nothing for me to push yet, I should have the identicalParts completed later, but not enough done or tested yet
<Pap>
brb
<NathanKell>
ok! I'm increasing TF fail data atm
<NathanKell>
Pap: Super weird, those shots
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vQYKs
<github>
RealismOverhaul/pap1723-ROupdates f4fac3c NathanKell: Increase TF failure data reward.
<taniwha>
\o/
<taniwha>
(despite not using it)
<NathanKell>
:)
<taniwha>
makes TF less punishing
<Bornholio>
Shakes fist at TF
<Pap>
TF is a cold woman
<taniwha>
TF is a cold-hearted harsh mistress
<Pap>
So strange, this save (which is my TTT save) is completely ruined, have to start over
<NathanKell>
:(
<NathanKell>
I notice the screenmessage about upgrade already in progress
<taniwha>
which is something I need to figure out how to do: make EL's productivity system less punishing
<NathanKell>
did you try to upgrade a building that was already upgrading?
<NathanKell>
KCT gives you the money back in that case
<NathanKell>
it sounds like maybe that giving back got 'stuck on'
<taniwha>
(while keeping its mechanic: I like that which kerbal matters)
<Pap>
NathanKell: that might have happened, hmmm
<Pap>
That is probably the most likely culprit
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
Pap: You know KSP creates automatic backups yeah?
<NathanKell>
is one of the backups sane?
<Pap>
yeah, I am going to try that out
<NathanKell>
ok
<taniwha>
you know a book on PBR is good when you pick up the book wondering why it has a photo on the cover, read the preface and find "all images in this book, including the front cover, were rendered using [the code in the book]" :)
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<Pap>
so for your jobs, do you have a task of say, we need this functionality in the game, and you sit and code all day to get it to operate correctly?
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<xShadowx>
Pap: i imagine something more in the direction of basements and cages being involved :D
<taniwha>
no basements (domestic) in Japan
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell|BRB
<lamont>
Pabst Blue Ribbon?
<Bornholio>
lol, lamont point me at latest dev build for MJ again
<regex>
Might have to tone the red down but it looks better in flight
<Bornholio>
fun
<xShadowx>
taniwha: japan doesnt jhave basements? that seems weird o.O esp given the rather limited land size, seems like basements would be more common
<blowfish>
I would hazard guess that height limits are less restrictive than the USA, thus less need to dig down (expensive)
<taniwha>
xShadowx: earthquakes and rescue
<taniwha>
I guess
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<blowfish>
maybe on average smaller living spaces too?
<taniwha>
blowfish: yeah, lots of tall buildings, especially in Tokyo
<taniwha>
and yes, houses tend to be MUCH smaller
<taniwha>
and yards often non-existent
<xShadowx>
thats not a house, its a bamboo can :)
<taniwha>
not quite /that/ bad
<taniwha>
usually
<xShadowx>
lol
<blowfish>
there is a culture of building excessively large houses in the USA
<xShadowx>
blowfish: s/excessively/needfully
<xShadowx>
:P
<Qboid>
xShadowx thinks blowfish meant to say: there is a culture of building needfully large houses in the USA
NathanKell|BRB is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<Bornholio>
yeah he didn't break a leg
<blowfish>
nope, I stand by "excessively"
<blowfish>
like, who needs a living room and a family room?
<blowfish>
(maybe some people, but certainly not most)
<xShadowx>
depends where though, we have a few cities built of closets too
<taniwha>
large houses would help with cabin fever
<blowfish>
true, that's more apartments than houses though
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<blowfish>
and only in cities where demand far outstrips what is permitted to be built
<blowfish>
again, largely due to restrictive height limits
<xShadowx>
san francisco is plenty crammed inches between houses :|
<Bornholio>
japan seemed like large areas of 3-4 flor buildings filled metro areas
<blowfish>
I'm from San Francisco. The city has its head very far up its ass in terms of housing policy right now
<blowfish>
and remember, for the same amount of housing, lower height limits means less open space
<taniwha>
Bornholio: what part of Japan?
<taniwha>
it's not /that/ small a country
<Bornholio>
kobe last time
<taniwha>
ok, yeah, kobe might be lower
<taniwha>
Tokyo definitely has a lot of tall buildings
<taniwha>
iirc, 8-9 floors for Yodobashi Camera in Akihabara
<xShadowx>
a few cities are being made with just stacking the 40ft shipping containers like lego, oh doors on the end? hello mini balcony :D
<taniwha>
and many buildings in the area were similar in height
<Bornholio>
comparing cities, tokyo and vancouver or newyork are reasonable, not most of USA, vancouver downtown averages 10+
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<Ultra>
Hello
<Bornholio>
hi
<xShadowx>
tall buildings = more people, but lower quality of life vs small houses that belong to you :|
<blowfish>
I think that's more perception than reality
<Ultra>
From the subreddit have been having a lot of trouble moving from 1.1.3--->1.2.2
<Ultra>
Starting to think im the problem
<blowfish>
e.g. low density promotes long commutes
<Bornholio>
what are you having problems with ultra
<taniwha>
and long commutes means you do not get to enjoy your home
<taniwha>
I like my commute: about 120s from bed to desk
<Ultra>
Well i cannot get through the load screen where it goes black and those balls on the bottom right keep spinning forever
<blowfish>
Ultra: something is throwing an exception
<Ultra>
and by forever i mean its gone like that for 30+ minutes, its not my computer as my cpu usage is like 10%
<blowfish>
not sure how familiar you are with debugging KSP issues, but logs are definitely necessary for this one
<Ultra>
How can i figure out what is throwing?
<Ultra>
and how do i pull logs on ksp?
<Bornholio>
post a output_log.txt
<xShadowx>
high density promotes polluted air, more city traffic, and neighbors above/below making noise not just to your sides, plus no happy yard to play with to make pretty and stare at to relieve stress of the idiots you live by ;p
<blowfish>
xShadowx: polluted air and traffic only if people drive
<xShadowx>
taniwha: thats a long commute o.O i got about 30s
<xShadowx>
same room? mine is :|
<taniwha>
different building
<Ultra>
Ok i have the entire output log
<xShadowx>
o.O
<blowfish>
as far as yards go, I am not using one most of the time, and I don't really want to put in the effort to maintain. I'd rather have something shared and ideally maintained by someone else
<blowfish>
i.e. a park
<xShadowx>
blowfish: its america, everyone has to have a car due to the culture >.>
<Ultra>
Here are the last tings in the log
<blowfish>
majority of New York City residents do not own a car
<Ultra>
Look rotation viewing vector is zero (Filename: Line: 82) Look rotation viewing vector is zero (Filename: Line: 82) Look rotation viewing vector is zero (Filename: Line: 82) PSystemSetup: Cannot find PQS of name 'Kerbin'! (Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 42) Look rotation viewing vector is zero (Filename: Line: 82)
<xShadowx>
blowfish: and how many taxis :P
<blowfish>
a lot, but more people take the subway
<Bornholio>
post the log into a pastebin or dropbox or the like
<xShadowx>
which someday will lead to outbreak of plague :)
<taniwha>
xShadowx: while living in Saitama, we never needed a car
<blowfish>
taxis are too expensive for most people as a regular commute option
<blowfish>
mass transit usage is high in New York and many other dense cities. No plages attributed yet
<blowfish>
plagues
<Bornholio>
you could have a problem with kopernicus or RSS with just that ultra
<taniwha>
5-10m walk to the train station, which was on a major line (keihin-touhoku) so could get to anywhere we wanted
<xShadowx>
/yet/ :)
<taniwha>
no longer in Saitama
<blowfish>
xShadowx: don't forget that driving actually kills a lot of people
<taniwha>
also, in Japan, home delivery from shops is a major thing, often free
<blowfish>
net public health benefit is probably to get people out of cars
<xShadowx>
blowfish: with how your taxi drivers drive, doesnt surprise me :)
<Ultra>
Thanks for any help :)
<blowfish>
xShadowx: you really think that's a significant fraction of driving, and thus driving deaths?
<blowfish>
and it's not so much in cities either. Lower average speeds generally mean fewer deaths
<stratochief|away>
is realfuels shipping with an outdated MM (2.7.5), resulting in 2 different MM dlls ending up from CKAN installs?
<xShadowx>
blowfish: i wasin one of your new york taxis, with the way that dude drove id say yes XD
<blowfish>
CKAN shouldn't be installing the MM that comes with RF
<blowfish>
I don't live in NY
<taniwha>
stratochief|away: ug, it should not be shipping with any version of MM :(
<xShadowx>
ah oops :P
<taniwha>
(MFT does not, for exactly that reason)
<Ultra>
I can try to remove 2.7.5 and see how that runs
<Ultra>
I was trying to use the silver spreadsheet as earlier today ckan was doing the same exact thing
<Bornholio>
Ultra i see a mix of errors, obviously the "Look rotation viewing vector is zero" thing is the bulk, but either kopernicus or RSS is aiming for Pqs files and not finding them
<Bornholio>
I'd do a scrub and install using CKAN, just install dependencies only first
<Ultra>
Ok, ill try that, should i do RO + RSS or just start with RO?
<stratochief|away>
Ultra: when trying to setup a new install, I start with just RSS, confirm that works, then add RO from there
<Ultra>
Sounds good brb. thanks for the help'
<Bornholio>
so make sure you have a clean install, then do RO, Then add RSS after and then slowly add any other mods,
<xShadowx>
blowfish: i do wonder at future though, all computer driven fully electric cars, accidents could drop and be very safe w/o people
<stratochief|away>
Ultra: looks like you have 4 instances of MM in there, make sure to delete all instances except one of 2.7.6
<blowfish>
self-driving could eliminate many of the safety concerns once the technology is mature, as well as provide a marginal capacity increase
<blowfish>
you're not going to fundamentally solve any congestion problems though
<stratochief|away>
blowfish: depends on the area you're upgrading. in places with street parking, self driving cars would free up some lanes, since the selfies can drop you off and drive away
<taniwha>
only way to salver congenstion problems is to get people closer to their work places
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<taniwha>
er... solve
<stratochief>
taniwha: also, give them alternate ways to get to work, like mass transit, bike lanes, walkability
<blowfish>
the two go hand in hand
<taniwha>
stratochief: yeah
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<taniwha>
and indeed, closer + above is ideal
<Bornholio>
join #cityplanning
<blowfish>
closer to work requires more density, higher density means less need to drive
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<Bornholio>
oh i'm already here :P
<stratochief>
I biked 15 km each way to a job a few years ago. my calves were crafted of Steel
<taniwha>
10km for me, but work was at 3m, home at 120m, with a 180m hill in between
<taniwha>
my thighs were tree trunks
<taniwha>
iron bark
<xShadowx>
id argue computer driven cars do solve atleast some of congestion - people tap breaks constantly and cause a rippling effect to every car behind em, computer driven cars would have much less of the effect and more constant moving
<stratochief>
yeah... I've never had to bike w/ real elevation change before. that sounds rough :S
<taniwha>
first few times getting home, I had negative interest in food
<taniwha>
(nauseated)
<stratochief>
yikes
<taniwha>
after a week or two, I'd get home and ask what's for supper
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<Bornholio>
hey rsparkyc
<stratochief>
o/ mr Raidernick
<stratochief>
* rsparkyc
<Raidernick>
now i'm sad
<Raidernick>
thanks
<stratochief>
Raidernick: eh, you still got an o/ :)
<blowfish>
xShadowx: yes, like I said marginal increase
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Pap: Something weird with X-15 parts
<NathanKell|Twitch>
they're not in the tree?
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Except the 1.25m cargo bay
<NathanKell|Twitch>
but the Mk1 cargo bay is in the high speed flight node and should be with the rest of the Mk1 parts in Proto Spaceplanes
<NathanKell|Twitch>
And the 1.25m cargo bay is in the HSF node not the Hypersonic Flight node
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<Ultra>
Thanks to you guys that helped me fix me 1.2 download, seems to be working now
<Bornholio>
good deal
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQYXG
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree 9e1f44a pap1723: Prototype Hydrolox now requires1961 Orbital Rocketry
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<Ultra>
Anybody know why persistant rotation cannot be downloaded via ckan?
<Ultra>
Getting a spacedock error
<Bornholio>
should be able too
<Ultra>
When trying to do it through the RO recommended list i get an error but if i search it then it works
<Bornholio>
ckan is seeing it fine, just installed it on a clean install
<Ultra>
wow thats weird then
<Bornholio>
might have been a momentary connection thing
<Ultra>
Kinda excitied to start a new playthrough but not exactly pumped to get through the sounding rocket / jet phase lol
<Bornholio>
are you going to play with RP-0?
<Ultra>
i was planning on it
<Ultra>
why?
<Pap>
Ultra: you should play with the new tree and RO branch
<Ultra>
How?
<Ultra>
I'd be down of course
<Bornholio>
NathanKell is doing a twitch for the current incarmation
<Bornholio>
Pap just wants testers :P
<Ultra>
Ive been watching it daily, big fan
<Ultra>
im just not good enough to compete for that race lol
<Pap>
Bornholio tells the truth!
<Ultra>
I'd be willing to play test, when im not working or running lol
<Pap>
I set my parking orbit for 200km and the satellite orbit for 4,000km
<Bornholio>
from the parking orbit you can set in first page, you get the two dv needed set AP then circ or raise PE
<Pap>
Ah, ok
<Pap>
What do the slide angle and slide time mean? How long I should wait to launch my next sat to be 90 degrees away?
<Bornholio>
slide angle is the amount the target will rotate during the manuever
<Bornholio>
so slide time is how much you would lead the target point when they are aligned
<Pap>
ah, ok, I think I understand
<Ultra>
Pap: crashed on first load, trying again
<Pap>
ultra if it doesn't work, send me an image of your GameData folder and the Output_log.txt file
<Ultra>
So i went to the link you gave me for RP-0 and RO, then extracted it and then pulled out the things in the gamedata folder and put them in the gamedata folder in the ksp file
<Bornholio>
delete the folders don't copy over them
<Bornholio>
otherwise you may leave a file that conflicts
<Ultra>
I did, i deleted the old ones + the tech tree
<Ultra>
Sorry i wasn't cleat
<Ultra>
clear
<Ultra>
Crashed again, what info do you want?
<Pap>
ok, had you tried loading it before you added these versions?
<Ultra>
Yes, it worked
<Pap>
ok, that is a good sign
<Pap>
send me an image of the insdie of your Realism Overhaul folder, image of the inside of your RP-0 folder and the output_log.txt
<Ultra>
Its just the new versions that crash very close to the end of the loading sequence
<Pap>
Ultra: please send me a picture of the inside of your Engine_Configs folder insde of RealismOverhaul
<Agathorn>
Upt to bag 4 of 12 in my Saturn V build.. looking pretty cool so far and i'm really impressed onm how this goes together..though tricky at times
<Ultra>
Just added it to that previous link
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<Ultra>
ill be back in like 5 minutes pap
<Ultra>
back
<Pap>
There are a lot of issues with the RN part packs from what I can see. Would you mind moving them out of your folder and try loading again?
<Agathorn>
Ultra: what version of TestFlight do you have installed?
<Agathorn>
if any
<Agathorn>
seeing some weirdness in your log but might be benign
<Pap>
That is what I was seeing as well Agathorn
<Pap>
They all seemed associated with RN parts though
<Ultra>
Currently loading without RN
<Pap>
And I am very jealous of your Saturn V build, I think we need a WIP picture taken
<Agathorn>
I've got a few I can upload
<Agathorn>
been taking a fgew pics each time I finish a bag :)
<Ultra>
No Testflight
<Ultra>
Don't usually add it till im sure i have a stable setup
<Agathorn>
ok I" think the error is benign then
<Agathorn>
just RF trying to attach but it should fail gracefully and I trust NK to do that properly :p
<Bornholio>
ultra have a gamedata in your gamedata?
<Ultra>
not to my knowledge.
<Ultra>
I pulled everything from ckan
<Ultra>
which was stable enough to load at least'
<Pap>
no luck with that load?
<Ultra>
Because im not very familiar with how KSP + mods are loaded, what is the bottleneck to prohibit faster loading? My main screen takes around 10 minutes and my cpu usage is only max of 50%
<Agathorn>
you just need to get it loaded once
<Ultra>
Load worked without RN
<Pap>
After the first load that works cleanly, Module Manager creates a Cache file that it loads from, then it works at 1/5th the time or so
<blowfish>
main problem is that it's single threaded
<Agathorn>
then it will mostly be cached and load faster in subsequent runs unless you change something
<Ultra>
I took all 6 or so different RN Packs out
<Pap>
OK, so there is something that RN does not like with the new stuff
<Ultra>
Thats what i figured, i have muti thread but running at a lower clock speed
<Pap>
I think it has to do with Raidernick setting his engine files in the parts instead of in Engine_Globals
<Bornholio>
ultra anytime parts change module manager has to regenerate things and first launch specifically it takes a long time to make a cache
<Pap>
But that is a pure guess, we will have to do some more research
<Ultra>
Intresting bug on that load up
<Ultra>
Menu is invisible but still clickable
<Ultra>
Even if you return to it, its just not visible
<Raidernick>
Pap, that has nothing to do with load times, if anything getting all info from the same file would take LESS time vs making hundreds of references back and forth to another file
<Raidernick>
and for the record no I don't like the globals
<Pap>
Raidernick: no, I was talking about the crash that Ultra was getting
<Raidernick>
because i don't like it when someone changes the mix rate by 0.001 for no reason and it fucks up my craft files
<Raidernick>
and i have to remake 50 craft files
<Raidernick>
so i dont use them 90% of the time
<Pap>
The log did not like something with the engine configs in your files vs the global ones, I will have to look into what is going on
<Pap>
Raidernick: I understand that completely and I don't think it is anything that you did. I think it has to do with some of the new RP-0 features
<Raidernick>
i don't use rp0
<Raidernick>
but i have to load my stuff constantly when testing and i never have to rebuild the mm cache unless i chagne something
<Raidernick>
it shouldn't be taking very long to load for anyone
<Ultra>
I'm constantly getting ~8 minute load time every time not just the first cache load.
<Pap>
Ultra: how many parts packs do you have? The log looked like a lot
<Ultra>
I am on a laptop, but it is not running it to its max'
<Raidernick>
i load my ksp off a 5400rpm hdd and my game loads in less than 2 mins with 45000 patches as long as i don't need to rebuild the cache
<Raidernick>
you sound like something is going on there that shouldn't be
<Ultra>
I'm on a SSD and it has 44k patches
<Ultra>
And i have about 10 part packs, mostly the ones that are on CKAN for reccomended
<Raidernick>
what ksp are you using
<Raidernick>
version
<Ultra>
1.2.2 im not sure of the exact build let me check
<Raidernick>
you know ckan will happily install 1.3 versions of mods into a 1.2.2 game if the netkan files are not updated
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<Raidernick>
and a LOT of them aren't because the ckan team has been awol
<Raidernick>
i've been trying to get in touch with them
<Raidernick>
but for my stuff for instance, if you are using 1.2.2 currently ckan forces an update to the 1.3 releases and fucks up your game
<Raidernick>
and i have a PR open there but nobody is around to merge it
<Raidernick>
you might be seeing similar issues with other mods
<Ultra>
Ya i'm not sure
<Raidernick>
i would recommending NOT using ckan right now
<Ultra>
Well it just loaded in 3 minutes now, thats new :)
<Raidernick>
not until they update the files
<Ultra>
ok
<Raidernick>
yeah there are tons of reports on ksp forums right now about loading issues with the game
<Raidernick>
all of them stem from installs using 1.3 mods on 1.2.2 or vice versa
<Ultra>
well KSP went from 1.2.2 to 1.3 so quickly
<Raidernick>
there is no advantage to using 1.3
<Raidernick>
unless you can't speak english
<Ultra>
I was checking the changes and saw no reason to update
<Ultra>
unless you played stock full time, but RO ruined stock for me
<Pap>
Wow Agathorn, they even have you make the interior tanks, that is neat
<Agathorn>
eh in abstract I guess
<Ultra>
Does it come with a rover?
<Agathorn>
Pretty sure this is meant to be Apollo 11
<Ultra>
Thats one of the parts of the Apollo mission that blew me the away the most, all that technology and we still end up driving around the moon
<Agathorn>
sure beats walking
<Pap>
That is really great Agathorn, my jelly now grows
<Ultra>
Ohh of course, except every mission was limited by how far they could go, because they could only go as far as they could safely run back
<Ultra>
Except the last one IIRC
<Agathorn>
hoping to finish the 1st stage this weekend, but not sur how it is broken up.. I have been basically oing 1 bag a day so far
<Agathorn>
it is quite large as you can see
<Agathorn>
very impressive
<Bornholio>
36 km in a space suit is not a run i think they could have made
<Ultra>
That was only the last mission IIRC they removed that rule
<Ultra>
The earlier ones went 25km and 24km but was not a straight line away from the lander
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<regex>
So the 1kN thruster was initially allowing Hydrazine, and then I upped the tech level to 1 and it only allowed nitrogen. Then I brought it back down to 0 and it wouldn't allow me to switch back to Hydrazine. I replaced it and I still can't use Hydrazine.
<Pap>
regex: I am assuming you do not have Hydrazine unlocked yet?
<regex>
Okay, where do I unlock that?
<regex>
Because Pioneer PS-30, launched on an Atlas Able, which I have just built, used Hydrazine thrusters?
<Pap>
NathanKell|Twitch noticed that we need to reset all of those RCS engines to only use Helium from the start as some are set to use the wrong one. 1961 -> Stability
<regex>
Pioneer P-3 launched with a hydrazine thruster, 1959
<Pap>
Alright, we will move it to 1959
<regex>
Now I need to figure out how to get more science.
<Pap>
To the MOON!
<regex>
Well, that's what I wanted the hydrazine thruster for...
<Pap>
If you give me 20 minutes I'll have a fresh push for you to download
<regex>
Nah, don't labor yourself over that.
<Pap>
I am working on it anyone right now
<Pap>
My save exploded, so I have to start over
<regex>
vOv Not gonna lie, I'd like that.
<regex>
Really enjoying this tech tree, makes a lot of sense.
<Pap>
Excellent to hear!
<Bornholio>
pap do we need a by year sheet for aircraft engines?
<Pap>
For me to follow to place in the tree correctly?
<Pap>
Yes, that would be helpful
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<Bornholio>
is there an engine list already in sheet form?
<Pap>
regex: Helium was available from the second Rocketry node, correct?
<Pap>
Born, let me generate one
<Bornholio>
k
<regex>
Not in the tree I'm using, still on nitrogen, just unlocked the first quad
<Pap>
That doesn't sound right regex, when is the last time you updated the tree?
<regex>
Do you mean 1958 orbital rocketry?
<Pap>
When should HTP become available NathanKell?
<regex>
Or the second basic rocketry?
<Pap>
Basic Rocketry
<soundnfury>
!tell rsparkyc proc avionics bug report: the second probeCore (Ranger Block I equivalent) is missing a science container
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
soundnfury: that is getting completely overhauled by him and leudeimon
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: I trust I can assume ^^ is a bug, and patch a fix into my game?
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Correct
<soundnfury>
Pap: oh yeah, just looked at leudaimon's repo/branch and indeed it's fixed there
<NathanKell>
The issue is that the actual thing (Ranger Block I) didn't have one, which was a bug. And rsparkyc then followed precedent. So it's actually *my* bug :D
<NathanKell>
soundnfury ^
<Pap>
Was HTP available before or after Hydrazine?
<Pap>
We want Hydrazine in 1959 and HTP in 1961?
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: lol
<Bornholio>
HTP should be earlier than Hydrazine
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<Bornholio>
X-1 used HTP RCS
<NathanKell>
Which model of X-1?
<Bornholio>
let me look it up
<NathanKell>
thanks!
<NathanKell>
Just, cuz there were a ton of 'em
<Pap>
Alright, we are going to have a tech tree gap, for play reasons, would everyone be alirhgt wiht HTP in 1959 and Hydrazine in 1961?
<NathanKell>
but either way you slice it, sounds like 54 or earlier
<Pap>
Otherwise, the 1961 node will be empty
<NathanKell>
1961 could maybe be Cavea B?
<regex>
lol
<NathanKell>
yeah well
<Pap>
OK, nevermind, the 1961 node will be fine
<regex>
Hey, why not?
<NathanKell>
I'm confused :]
<regex>
I'm not, it's cool.
<Pap>
That is where the second and third quad pods open up, we don't also need an RCS fuel to unlock there as well
<regex>
Cavea-B was just fired a few times before being given up on, IIRC
<regex>
but I think that's because they were making full-on monoprop engines
<regex>
rather than just pulsed RCS
<NathanKell>
Ah, I see
<Pap>
Alright, here is my RCS proposal, shoot it down or make changes if we need to...
<NathanKell>
regex: Correct, and also because biprop wins anyway
<regex>
Yeah
<regex>
It's some volatile shit though
B787_300 is now known as B787_Bed
<regex>
Also, I'd just like to thank me for buying a more expensive dinner table set because these chairs are tightened with a socket, not an allen wrench. ~*:so easy:*!
<Pap>
NathanKell: is Cavea B really expensive to dissuade people from using it?
<NathanKell>
Well, and because it would have taken a ton of money to make practical
<regex>
No, it's expensive because it's never flown IRL
<regex>
And also that
<regex>
It's a volatile, finicky beast
<NathanKell>
It had the unfortunate trait of being so energetic it.... Yeah that
<Pap>
Or can you code Lee Trevino from Happy Gilmore shaking his head to show up everytime a player accepts it?
<NathanKell>
Hah!
<regex>
lol
<Bornholio>
John Clark (“Ignition”) was involved in Navy activity in the 1960s to develop a high-performance monopropellant and succeeded with Cavea B, which outperformed hydrazine, had 40% higher density, was extremely stable, and had low toxicity (an organic salt dissolved in nitric acid).
<NathanKell>
Bornholio that's why I asked the model, since that's a full decade from first flight :)
<regex>
You know what, explosions would be interesting failure modes for Cavea-B-using parts
<NathanKell>
Extremely stable? Something dissolved in notice acid being non toxic? Wut?
<Pap>
Alright, let me look through some of Bornholio reports to see if there is anything else I need to add to this update
<NathanKell>
Nitric
<Bornholio>
nitric acid is reactive not toxic
<Pap>
Bornholio: Is the procedural heat shield that you refer to from SSTU?
<Bornholio>
no
<Bornholio>
god let me look at the reference
<Pap>
That should be a non-RP0 part
<Pap>
The one from Procedural Parts I mean
<Bornholio>
no can't be don't have SSTU installed, maybe vens or sxt
<Bornholio>
ah i'll double check then
<Pap>
It should be listed as non-RP0, is it not?
<Pap>
ok
<Bornholio>
i should put that folder trick in shouldn't i
<Pap>
I actually don't know that trick (have seen others talk about it)
<Pap>
Bornholio: you mention the Service BAys, do they need to be moved in the tree, or are they just useless sizes for RP-0?
<Bornholio>
"Just create a new folder NoNonRP0 in your GameData folder. It will hide all the not ro/rp-0 parts from your game. "
<Bornholio>
too big for the time period, so useless
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<Pap>
ah, interesting
<Pap>
ok, I will push them back further
<Bornholio>
I think they should have a 1m and 1.25m scale one or better yet a slide select size
<regex>
I have never found a need for service bays when using FAR
<Bornholio>
they take heat nice for sample return
<Pap>
Born, I like the idea of the shockwave effects, can you find an image that kinds shows what those effects might look like on the KSP icon style?
<Bornholio>
sure, or i'll pencil whip something
<Pap>
even better!
<Bornholio>
pap you are correct Proc Heatshield is currently NON-rp-0
<Pap>
ok good, yeah it is not really configured to work correctly
<Pap>
Those are the aircraft engines in RO right now
<Bornholio>
excellent, i'll add to the years in comments
<Bornholio>
if before '45 does it matter how much?
<Pap>
Directly edit that file, no need to put comments, use the Placement Notes for comments
<Pap>
Anything before 45 is 0 for the year
<Bornholio>
k
<lamont>
i need a mod that goes “hey dumbass this RCS thruster doesn’t have any fuel” before i build a rocket
<Pap>
So do I lamont, so do I
<Bornholio>
rcs is the large portion of pain in design at this point
<Pap>
"Hey moron, all the rest of your rocket is configured for Nitrous Oxide, this one is still Nitrogen. You are literally too dumb to play this game." - That is the message I want
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<Bornholio>
if MJ RCS dV calc worked, i might notice something wrong but alas...
<taniwha>
is that RO specific? it works for me
<Bornholio>
if you have it working for RO i want the sauce
<taniwha>
I don't use RO, thus the question
<Bornholio>
works with stock RCS
<Bornholio>
not RO config RCS
<Bornholio>
I'm just happy RCS Build aid can figure out RO RCS
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<Pap>
testing changes now...
<Pap>
let me re-phrase...waiting the 10 minutes for the game to load to make sure I didn't break anythign badly
<lamont>
It might be nice to have a mod that ran in the VAB that just enforced a given RCS fuel and magically swapped out whatever you set for whatever garbage you accidentally put on your rocket…
<Pap>
lamont: ask and you shall receive a revival mod from LGG
<Pap>
Completely customizable so you can edit the config and it has the resources you need / want and will be checked by the program and turn red if you do not have it
<lamont>
interesting
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQY9T
<Pap>
regex, Bornholio, NathanKell|NOMZ: There we go
<blowfish>
Ignition! is $44 for the e-book or $700 hard cover ... wat
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
Or zero for the PDF ferram4 sends you
<lamont>
i think some booksellers put up listings for rare books they know they can find for 10x the cost and wait for orders from people who order it accidentally
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
Iirc he has the pdf
<Pap>
off to bed, good night all o/
Pap is now known as Pap|Sleep
<regex>
Thanks Pap!
<NathanKell|NOMZ>
Night Pap!
<Bornholio>
night, pap only one engine in the list with any need for change in year 1952 for the J47-GE-27, well except the imaginary CR2 :/
Bornholio is now known as Born|toSleep
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<regex>
Early core is so damn heavy
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<taniwha>
WOOT
<taniwha>
succeeded in hijacking the WarpToMorning button :)
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] PhineasFreak opened pull request #1690: Update the RO Agena engine plume (master...RO-Agena-Engine-Plume-Tweaks) https://git.io/vQYFt
<taniwha>
anybody here?
<Theysen>
what can you do with that now taniwha
<taniwha>
Theysen: warp to 4m before actual sunrise
<Qboid>
Pap|Sleep: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<gazpachian>
Pap|Sleep: flip it around so it goes left to right
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<Rokker>
Pap|Sleep: AIR SHOW
<Rokker>
no thunderbirds tho
Born|toSleep is now known as Bornholio
<Bornholio>
poke
<Bornholio>
pap very nice
<Bornholio>
Pap|sleep I like it a lot, use that one for the first manned heatshield node?
<Bornholio>
Rokker yup, spine gone, airframe retired, all the parts will be stripped and live on as replacements, like the engine i saw destroyed by a fluffy bunny.
<Rokker>
Bornholio: nooooo
<Rokker>
not the bunneh
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap|Sleep: quick question - when do RCS fuels other than Nitrogen become available in your lovely tech-tree? :p
<Rokker>
Bornholio: send help
<Rokker>
the navy has invaded the dayton air show
<Bornholio>
they have a great show, watch out for the seamen though.
<Bornholio>
Rokker they are really good at Anchoring an airshow. /badPun_OFF
<Rokker>
Bornholio: there are a whole squadron of growlers
<Bornholio>
Saw a USN pilot making one dance on its tail in '90 at 50m up, always been impressed
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<Rokker>
Bornholio: omg
<Rokker>
they are letting people go inside the bone
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<Agathorn>
taniwha: I always wondered when someone would fix that :D
<Agathorn>
warping to sunrise IN GMT never made any sense to me
<Rokker>
Agathorn: BONE
<Rokker>
Agathorn: navy shills everywhere, send help
Sigma88 is now known as SigmaUK
<Agathorn>
!tell Pap that icon feels weird to me with the curved reentry effect.. think it woiuld look better straight. IMHO
<Qboid>
Agathorn: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Agathorn>
AF > Navy but the Navy is still cool
B787_Bed is now known as B787_Traveling
<Agathorn>
Its all the other branches that suck :)
<Rokker>
Agathorn: why do the coast guards hate America and freedom
<Rokker>
it's all Airbus and eurocopter
<Agathorn>
why do american citizens drive around in foreign cars
<Agathorn>
"Buy American" sounds great, but the reality is half the time other people do it better :)
<Rokker>
Agathorn: cause they are communists
<Agathorn>
Bornholio: that Haas is.. interesting.. at least from a marketing web page
<Rokker>
Agathorn: lmao
<Rokker>
army aviation just showed up
<Agathorn>
feel free to boo them
<Rokker>
Agathorn: the navy and used have massive trailers to advertise the cool navy and usaf shit
<Rokker>
the army has a lil tent
<Agathorn>
Bornholio: We really need to move away from these EELVs though that just leave junk in orbit :( Should be a law passed or something that the stages HAVE to deorbit themselves
<Agathorn>
just like sats are required to have enough fuel for a graveyard orbit
<Rokker>
fucking hell
<Rokker>
this line
<Bornholio>
lol rokker is not prepared for lines at an airshow...
<Bornholio>
agathorn, i agree but that thing could only do leo. everything in leo comes down eventually
<Rokker>
Bornholio: people are taking upwards of 2 minutes inside the B-1 cockpit
<Bornholio>
stay away from vancouvers airshow then, abbotsford is very impressive
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<Bornholio>
!tell Pap|Sleep updated that engine sheet with notes on all non-fictional engines on firstrun/firstflight dates and left the Yeay column alone
<Qboid>
Bornholio: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Agathorn>
Bornholio: yes but its the "eventually" part I take offense at. That is the problem. Companies know that "eventually" it will come down so they don't worry about it
<Bornholio>
better tha geosats that are decaying in place
<Agathorn>
satellites are at least required to move into a graveyard orbit
<Agathorn>
and pollution at that height is a lot less of an issue than it is in LEO
<Bornholio>
actually worse they take up spots permanently, thats why the requirement for parking orbit
<Agathorn>
yes but my point is it is so far up there that 1. its out of operation al space (for now at least) and 2. there is more volume thus less crowding
<Bornholio>
besides ESA won't let them do a junk shot with it neither will FAA in US
<Agathorn>
leo is less volume thus more crowded, and we are actually working there
<Agathorn>
i'm also starting to get concerned over haphazardly letting things fall back on thier own
<Agathorn>
seems like eventually with all this stuff just falling unconmtrollably back to earth there is goign to be an incident
<Bornholio>
FAA requires a well mappd descent and permission from target country
<Agathorn>
at least if it deorbits on its own its controlled
<Agathorn>
so they'd rather it just randomly come down instead?
<Agathorn>
I'm saying why don't we require them to de-dorbit after delivery in a controlled and known fashion over the ocean
<Agathorn>
rather than randomly re-entering at some unknown location and time in the future
<Bornholio>
we do
<Agathorn>
or well not unknown but random
<Agathorn>
how is leaving it in leo for it to come down "eventually" a controlled deorbit?
<Bornholio>
neither ESA or the FAA will let you fly without those all mapped out and a plan.
<Agathorn>
even if they have mapped out when and where it will eventually fall back, there is still the issue of it being a hazard for years until that hgappens
<Bornholio>
plus NASA/USAF do the junk mapping for the whole planet and other services usually get permission or at least tell them
<Bornholio>
well except North Korea
<Agathorn>
I'd just feel a lot better if a rocket delivered its payload then deobirtted itself to burn up on a known renetry right away if not landing
<Agathorn>
no leaving junk up there for no reason other than we were too lazy to budget propellant
<Rokker>
Probus: it's the T-50A, the lockmart/Korean entry for the T-X competition
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<Bornholio>
did you get time in the BOne
<Rokker>
Bornholio: still in fucking line
<Rokker>
I've been in line over an hour
<Probus>
What! They are letting you in one?
<Probus>
I've worked on avionics for that thing for years. Never been in one though.
<Bornholio>
you backshop or depot Probus
<Probus>
Depot. We write the test software for the depot and intermediate testers
<Rokker>
Probus: yeah, you get to go in the bomb bay and get dropped on afghanistan
<Rokker>
it's pretty fun
<Bornholio>
the snark is strong with this one
<Probus>
If you get to go in the cockpit look for the NWMU at the offensive weapon officer's station and the IBS at the pilot's stations. Worked on both of those. In the bomb bay and wheel wells look for the SDMA units. Wrote the software for those also.
<Probus>
BTW, Did I tell you Rokker that on my way to Hawaii our plane had a bird strike and had to turn around (back to Denver) because one of the pilot's windshields shattered. Just the lexan was holding it in place.
<Rokker>
Probus: rekt
<Rokker>
Probus: also, irritable bowel syndrome?
<Probus>
Integrated Battle Station
<Rokker>
mmmmmm 6 SBDs
<Rokker>
Probus: what does the sdma look like
<Probus>
1 - 4 Small boxes attached to larger boxes. About 1 ft by 8x8 inches
<Rokker>
FINALLY
<Rokker>
Probus: don't think the ibs was integrated
<Rokker>
yet
<Agathorn>
Finished the first stage of my Lego Saturn V :)
<Probus>
\o/
<Agathorn>
Got hung up on a part of the engines but finally figured it out
<Agathorn>
was very confusing but obvious in hindsight.. hopefully i 'll remember to call it out in my imgur album for anyone else that gets confused
<stratochief>
Agathorn: as far as I know, every upper stage that injects to GTO leaves the peri low enough that it re-enters within a year or so
<stratochief>
Agathorn: and I believe the light construction of spent upper stages means they break up, burn up in the upper/mid atmosphere. only dense payloads have a chance to come down somewhere solid, like Skylab did
<xShadowx>
whos gonna finish first, Agathorn or taniwha :P
<Agathorn>
is taniwha buildigng one as well?
<Agathorn>
I'm not rushing, and this is the first lego set I've ever done so... :)
<Agathorn>
I just thjink we need to start enacting some rregulations rather than the haphazard way LV stages are treated right now
<Agathorn>
as commercial space flight becomes more and more of a regular thing, its going to become a mess
<Bornholio>
insurance companies are actually the driving force for that. Wanna see the first big loss andthe court fight afterwards...neither do they. so they spec in larger charges if a sufficient plan is not in place
<Agathorn>
I can't decide which I hate less... creating a whole new class for extension methods of Application, or something like this: (null as Application).QuitGame();
<Agathorn>
sucks that c# doesn't let you make true static methods as extension
<Agathorn>
s/extension/extensions
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: sucks that c# doesn't let you make true static methods as extensions
<xShadowx>
he got one, waiting for free quiet time to build it though :)
<Agathorn>
well by the numbers I am halfway through the build.. just finished bag 6 of 12
<Agathorn>
though that was all first stage
<xShadowx>
i wonder what itd look like if you didn follow instructions, and tried to build it right still ;3
<Agathorn>
I hate to use the word impossible but..
<xShadowx>
i mean you know what it should look like heh
<Agathorn>
serikously I don't think anyone could possibly figure it out without the instructions.. it is way too complicated
<xShadowx>
how much parts?
<Agathorn>
and given that they are 90% generic lego blocks..I don't see how you oculd figure out the right way to assemble them at all
<Agathorn>
1969 pieces :)
<xShadowx>
lawl
<Agathorn>
roughly 180 pages of assembly instructions
<Agathorn>
sooo my saturn v's second stage just had a real life RUD event :(
<Agathorn>
pieces spread all over the office floor
TheKosmonaut is now known as Kosmo|EVA
<Starwaster>
bornholio hmmm not sure, what kind of thrust did the upper stage have? Maybe something like 400km you'd best do turn end 130-170 and have to circularize. Might not be possible to insert into that altitude in a circular orbit in one try
<Starwaster>
oh.... increase the gain on corrective steering
<Starwaster>
yeah, if the gain is too low it limits how much it's allowed to pitch and it needs to at least be able to pitch -/+ 20
<Bornholio>
its a three stage to parking orbit. i'll try that after some things
<github>
[RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQOgJ
<github>
RP-0/Pap-TechTree d5ad09f NathanKell: Allow Break Sound Barrier to complete (the speed param didn't have disableOnStateChange = true )
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: its karma, you made everyone else's rockets fail :)
<Rokker>
Probus: watched the f-35 land from the bone cockpit
<Rokker>
Probus: can see it landing in the last pic
<Agathorn>
almost don'
<Agathorn>
ack
<Agathorn>
almos't don't even recognize the B-1 wich that wide angle
<Agathorn>
s/which/with
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: that album doesn't yet show the completion of the first stage with I finished just today.. have to get the photos uploaded still
<Agathorn>
wow seriously qboid?
<Agathorn>
read my mind not my text
<Agathorn>
geesh
<Agathorn>
almos't don't even recognize the B-1 with that wide angle
<Rokker>
0/10
<leudaimon>
sorry, NathanKell|Twitch, was afk...
<Probus>
I can't believe they let you inside Rokker!
<Agathorn>
altimeter setting in that cockpit is odd
<Rokker>
Probus: the skywriting team flew down closer and did some ww2 maneuvering and stuff
<Rokker>
since they were SBD-1s
<Rokker>
like they did a fake attack bombing run
<Probus>
There are multiple altimeters Agathorn
<Agathorn>
more than the 2 (1 pilot 1 copilot)?
<leudaimon>
doesn't the RD-253 gimbal on both axes? I was trying to build a light LV with a single one as first stage and can't control it
<Agathorn>
I'm talking in the 6 pack not an MFD
<Agathorn>
29.74 seems awfully low for Dayton which i'd expect to be QFE around 30ish
<Probus>
There is an additional radar altimeter that works with the TFTAR.
<Agathorn>
but that could be completely wrong
<Agathorn>
yeah but not setting your standard altimater (IE the one in the 6 packj) correctly is a pretty bad move, and not like a military pilot.. and the low pressure just threw my brain for a loop
<Rokker>
Probus: was that really a laptop I saw in the rear compartment
<Probus>
They gotta play Kerbal on those 25 hour missions.
<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
like a milspec laptop could play KSP
<Agathorn>
be lucky if it could play pong
<Agathorn>
those things are the very definition of potatoe
<Agathorn>
be shocked if they have something that current
<SirKeplan>
leudaimon: i'm pretty sure it only gimbals on 1 axis, that's all that's needed for control on Proton when there's 6 of them
<Agathorn>
when I was in the computers were like 10 years old
<SirKeplan>
that said, it kinda limits it's use ingame
<leudaimon>
oh, that was my concern SirKeplan
<leudaimon>
yeah, I think this kind of stuff reduces freedom in the name of fidelity
<Agathorn>
screw freedom.. oh wait
<SirKeplan>
i'd like a way to modify gimbals etc ingame, real life engines often get fitted with different gimbals
<NathanKell|Twitch>
^
<leudaimon>
I'm not asking for roll control, but I guess it wouldn't be very complicated to make a version with two-axis gimballing
<leudaimon>
definitely
<leudaimon>
or a "procedural" vernier, that allowed me to add verniers to whatever engine I wanted
<SirKeplan>
like the NK-33 is generally gimbal-less but aerojet(i think) added one to it for Antares.
<NathanKell|Twitch>
We added a config for that
<NathanKell|Twitch>
costs more, slightly more mass
<NathanKell|Twitch>
IIRC
<Agathorn>
or just give them full control regardless.. I mean reeally, it stands to reason if you are building a rocket you're goign to have the gimbal you need
<leudaimon>
for the NK-33 I'm quite sure too
<SirKeplan>
yeah, but should we add hypothetical gimbal configs for other engines
<SirKeplan>
that would be the question
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<Rokker>
Probus: I never realized that it doesn't have ailerons
<SirKeplan>
Agathorn: an option ingame to pay some funds and give an engine a custom gimbal at the expense of some funds and mass would be be what i was thinking of.
<leudaimon>
I would be happy with that SirKeplan
<SirKeplan>
the next question is how to implement that :P
<leudaimon>
if only there was some vernier for UDMH/NTO
<NathanKell|Twitch>
^
<NathanKell|Twitch>
try RealEngines
<NathanKell|Twitch>
it has some IIRC
<leudaimon>
i have RealEngines... if it has, not placed in the tree
<leudaimon>
I'm making a contraption
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Pap|Sleep is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
<Qboid>
Pap: Agathorn left a message for you in #RO [24.06.2017 14:54:07]: "that icon feels weird to me with the curved reentry effect.. think it woiuld look better straight. IMHO"
<Bornholio>
he's crazy looks great
<Pap>
lol
<taniwha>
xShadowx: mine was finished on tuesday or wednesday
<xShadowx>
o_O
<xShadowx>
taniwha: your saturn V?
<taniwha>
yes
<xShadowx>
i coulda sworn it was like thurs where you said you were waitin for some quiet time to put it together :|
* xShadowx
thinks hes starting to lose track of time
<taniwha>
time is an illusion
<Pap>
Has anyone here cut the cord and gotten rid of cable?
<taniwha>
does just not watching TV count?
<taniwha>
(wife, kids and mother-in-law watch a lot of tv, but no cable)
<Bornholio>
do it pap
<taniwha>
(actually, kids watch more youtube than tv)
<Bornholio>
yes i have, use antenna get 9 channels, 4 of them pbs
<taniwha>
and yeah, while you might go through initial withdrawals, you'll be happier in the long run
<Pap>
I am all for it, I'll be fine, I am just trying to make sure my wife will be able to watch her 5 shows
<xShadowx>
or you mean go for full wifi or sat net? never ;p not stable enough
<xShadowx>
tv qise is netflix/hulu
<xShadowx>
s/q/w
<Qboid>
xShadowx meant to say: tv wise is netflix/hulu
<Pap>
I am going to keep high speed internet, we have netflix, will get an HD antenna, now I just need to figure out what DVR I want to get, Kodi the best option?
<Bornholio>
get a decent omni antenna or suffer
<Pap>
ah, ok Bornholio
<xShadowx>
kodi is uh.......'let me stream illegal movies to my tv' :D
<Pap>
what is the best open source or freeware dvr?
<xShadowx>
my mom bought one thencant figure out how to use XD
<xShadowx>
your pc
<xShadowx>
:)
<Bornholio>
the decent ones look like a dics start off about 70$, make sure its got a signal amplifier too, ones built into tv's suck
<xShadowx>
yourtube has a new system coming to replace cable tv+dvr in one but too pricey
<xShadowx>
youtube*
<Pap>
I did the 30 day test on it xShadowx still, $30 a month, I wasn't all that happy with it
<xShadowx>
brave boy ;p i aint touchin it
<xShadowx>
i usually hop between netflix, hulu, swap each month, then sometimes try new ones like cbs was kinda ish decent, amazon streaming poor content, but plenty of tv when hopping between em, still <$10/mo heh
<xShadowx>
most of the new shows i like pop up on hulu (then netflix after season ends) so no need for dvr for me :)
<Bornholio>
Give up Tv shows and stop worrying about it! see just saved you money
<Pap>
For me the only issue is not being able to watch sports / ESPN
<Bornholio>
yeah thats hard to replace
<xShadowx>
with the lack of quality i should, but without tv to waste 1-2 hr/day id be spending more buying tools, so not a money saver to skip tv :P
<Bornholio>
how is that a loss :P
<xShadowx>
because im poor ;p
<taniwha>
sell more pens
<Bornholio>
play more KSP !
<xShadowx>
atm makin a cnc machine thats sucking up my $ ahah
<xShadowx>
then new desk, which i gotta buy a couple hundred $ of epoxy for -.-
* xShadowx
doesnt see how its so pricy when everything plasticy is cheap