<Bornholio>
ah ok, for a rocket what range of Re are you comming up with Nx10^4 range?
<Agathorn>
havn;t even run it yet :)
<Bornholio>
Alright, later tomorrow i'll have abit of time at work my books waiting on a test to run. I'll see about simple formulas given that those are known values
<Agathorn>
when I get more piece in place I plan to run a simulation and spit out all the data so you smart people can see if the values look sane or not
<Agathorn>
right now i'm just itching to leave work so I can go home and get to work :)
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<Pap>
Can someone teach me how to compile source code for KSP?
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<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: leudaimon left a message for you in #RO [15.06.2017 14:52:07]: "soundnfury rsparkyc I'm getting into a very busy period for the next days, and I won't have time to keep up with RtS. Guess I'll leave the game to don't delay you guys."
<Pap>
o/
<NathanKell>
leudaimon ^ as I said, are you suuuure? We'll miss you tons!
<NathanKell>
Pap: You had already left or I'd have tried to sweet-talk you too ;)
<rsparkyc|AWAY>
o/
<Pap>
lol NathanKell, I really wouldn't have had time. I am playing for the first time in a week or so, and now it is testing
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<rsparkyc>
NathanKell, i think he later said he would try to stick it out
<NathanKell>
\o/
<NathanKell>
Pap: :\
<rsparkyc>
ugh, garbage collection is killing me...
<Agathorn>
then dont' make garbage
<Agathorn>
Pap: click build?
<Pap>
Only 19 MM Errors on the first load, those are fixed, lets find out what other messes we have made
<Agathorn>
compiling for KSP is just compiling for Unity
<Pap>
Agathorn: let's say I have never built a DLL before, especially for KSP, are there any resources you can point me to?
<NathanKell>
Pap: The tutorials on the KSP wiki were good last I chekced
<Pap>
ah, excellent, I will check there as well
<rsparkyc>
Pap, let me know if you need any help too, a lot of what i learned is still pretty fresh
<Pap>
thanks rsparkyc
<Pap>
54,846 patches applied with no errors, success
<gazpachian>
rookie numbers
<gazpachian>
actually no, that's rather insane.
<rsparkyc>
i'm at 31k
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<Agathorn>
30,000 of them pribably caused by TestFlight lol
<Pap>
lol, I think there is a lot more due to the Engine_Config PARTUPGRADES now that I am testing out
<Pap>
What is the default difficulty we are supposed to be playing at? Hard with what settings?
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vHAz7
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master dc22044 NathanKell: Physics tweak and X-15 part temp tweak to deal with the heat issue I encountered. Need to lower the effectiveness of the heatshields to compensate however to retain correct peak skin temps.
<NathanKell>
\o/
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<rsparkyc>
I thought just moderate
<NathanKell>
Moderate with fund loss at 100%
<Pap>
ty
<NathanKell>
need to write a plugin to make our own presets, I added that to 1.2.2.
<NathanKell>
I mean, I play hard with 100% fund loss, but it might be a bit tight :)
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<Pap>
Yeah, I should be playing on easy, so we will go with moderate
<waerloga>
I also turn off rejecting contracts
<waerloga>
the penalty for that
<Pap>
waerloga: I turn that to 0 as well, but stop rejecting my beautiful contracts, we are not on speaking terms anymore
<waerloga>
heh
<waerloga>
I just started with your contracts, so I've not had to turn anyway away yet
<Pap>
lol
<Rounan>
Pap: Are there eventually enough contracts that turning them down, stock-style, is necessary to put together a profitable mission? I'm only on Tier 1, so I'm still getting offered all contracts i'm eligible to receive.
<Pap>
Rounan: there is a lot of contracts, but you don't have to turn any down, they will keep regenerating every 7 days
<Rounan>
Pap: thanks, I'm excited to see what you've cooked up, I last played RP-0 over a year ago and contracts were one thing I found needed more polish at that point.
<Pap>
Rounan: there is always room for improvement, so if you see someting you think should be different, please say someting, i don't get offended easily
<Bornholio>
If you have no universal parts mod installed are the bare Univ. Storage parts intended?
<Pap>
Bornholio: no, but they show up from DMagic Orbital Science I believe
<Rounan>
Pap: I will! Thanks for asking. I'm hoping to lurk around here for a bit, I've been eager for the 1.2.2 release for months now and was glad to find NathanKell's post referencing this channel. You guys are so responsive, it's really great!
<Pap>
nice to hear Rounan. I am a newcomer, only been around here for a few months, but it is a good group of people
<Rounan>
No kidding! This is like the KSP brain trust in here. All the mods I've found most impressive over the past 5 years, all under one roof. It's the best thing since CKAN. :)
<rsparkyc>
there's no way to pause the twitch stream and then catch up at 2x is there?
<rsparkyc>
(or rewind while live)
<Rounan>
It's May 9 1953, I think? Nothing interesting came up on the sync. Some debris was deleted to declutter LEO. Now, we're sizing an engine
<Rounan>
now you're up to date. :)
<Pap>
^ true story rsparkyc
<Bornholio>
I have 110ish FL-T800 Fuel tanks in my Early Construction node??? onely one in VAB. Is there a good example of a part that RO removes.
<Rounan>
You should get that looked at, sounds uncomfortable.
<Bornholio>
Pap Ok thanks i'll hunt down the code :)
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<NathanKell>
cheers all, gotta dash!
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<Pap>
So it would appear I have not said nice things about Agathorn today. Agathorn, you are a wonderful person and I hope your work is going well on ST tonight
<Agathorn>
YOU DISTRACT ME WITH THIS!?
<rsparkyc>
apparently reentry hates me today
<rsparkyc>
did I piss off Starwaster?
<Agathorn>
WROTH
<Pap>
It worked! I said nice things about you and my RD-101 worked all the way to a 389 km apogee, thanks!
<Pap>
The rpevious 3 attempts, not so much
<Agathorn>
lol
<Pap>
s/rp/pr
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: The previous 3 attempts, not so much
<Bornholio>
yeah is reentry heating up more from something in RO/RP-0 lately? Tiny probe ate lots of abalator
<rsparkyc>
i have an abalator, and mine keeps exploding
<Bornholio>
Return Probe was 187kg, with a full 0.625m LEO heatshield (20pt) ate most of it, came in at 74km PE from 340AP, teeny tiny thing
<Bornholio>
everything heavier has burned up
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<rsparkyc>
ok, just took a ton of screenshots with a bunch of thermal data, hopefully someone can figure out what's up
<lamont>
i broke up ullage functions into “prevent unstable ignitions” and “use rcs to ullage”
<lamont>
and “prevent unstable ignitions” now does what it says on the tin (before it was requiring “very stable” conditions — which would cause sounding rockets to not work well at all)
<lamont>
it’d be useful to fly with those both on and see if they’re any better
<Bornholio>
ok thanks lamont i'll try that and comment tomorrow.
<lamont>
“use rcs to ullage” should do nothing if you don’t have any RCS enabled — so should be perfectly safe to have that checked on sounding rockets, etc
<lamont>
the launch inclination freak out and the end of the burn when going from KSC to the moon should be fixed
<lamont>
and changing the target inclination to like “0.0” shouldn’t cause it to freak out
<Bornholio>
does launch to target plane work?
<lamont>
yeah
<lamont>
should
<Bornholio>
I was getting reverse planes before
<lamont>
yeah i think that got fixed awhile ago
<Bornholio>
k
<lamont>
(wasn’t me)
<lamont>
(although i think i reported that)
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<lamont>
the early-maneuver-execution fix got a compete rework, so if that breaks again its my fault
<Bornholio>
hah, good to know
<lamont>
for sounding rockets and stuff you may still need to uncheck “prevent unstable ignition” although if you do get failures to fire due to that it’d be kind of interesting to know
<Bornholio>
ok i'll try a couple, i'll do a moon orbit tomorrow also
<lamont>
i should really do some playing and less yak shaving of the ascent code
<Bornholio>
whatever is fun, I waffle back and forth on getting a RO mod for all the US NTR derivatives out
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<egg>
!tell rsparkyc you encountered a crash? if so, can you please open an issue and give the full INFO log that ends with that crash, rather than dump one line of FATAL in my IRC backlog?
<Qboid>
egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg>
!tell also any reproduction steps would be welcome, though that might be hard
<Qboid>
egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg>
uh
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<also>
oops
<Qboid>
also: egg left a message for you in #RO [16.06.2017 07:33:03]: "any reproduction steps would be welcome, though that might be hard"
also is now known as egg
<egg>
!tell rsparkyc also any reproduction steps would be welcome, though that might be hard
<Qboid>
egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Theysen>
mornin', is there an easy way to make attachments node toggleable other than doing what e.g. the stock fairings interstage node toggles do? Cheers
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<Starwaster>
lamont: If it doesn't have ullage then it can't have unstable ullage. Sounding rockets are solids arent they?\
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<Starwaster>
yo lamont, about sounding rockets and ullage: unstable ullage is only an issue if the rocket has ullage to begin with. If it's solids then there's no ullage concern: That engine will never report unstable ullage
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<schnobs>
Starwaster: sounding rockets are not necessarily solids.
<schnobs>
In the context of RP-0, one usually means WAC Corporal and the likes, which take liquids.
<schnobs>
RP-0 carreer starts with these devices and I assure you that ullage is very much a concern.
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<Hypergolic_AFK>
with sounding rockets I usually hotstage, because the solid ullage motors are too big/heavy for this simple task on such a small craft
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<Starwaster>
schnobs if ullage IS a concern then the option to guard against unstable ignition shouldn't be disabled. As I understand it, the idea that it SHOULD be disabled was because it might interfere in sounding rockets that did not have ullage issues.
<Starwaster>
my point is that when ullage isnt an issue then the unstable ignition option can't interefere
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<rsparkyc>
o/
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: egg left a message for you in #RO [16.06.2017 07:28:35]: "you encountered a crash? if so, can you please open an issue and give the full INFO log that ends with that crash, rather than dump one line of FATAL in my IRC backlog?"
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: egg left a message for you in #RO [16.06.2017 07:33:56]: "also any reproduction steps would be welcome, though that might be hard"
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<rsparkyc>
is there a way to switch KSC Switcher launch sites without going to the tracking station?
<egg|work|egg>
rsparkyc: ok, please also mention whether that's stock, just RSS, or whether I need to install a giant pile of mods to be able to load the save
<rsparkyc>
it's RP-0, i'll update the ticket
<egg|work|egg>
blarg
<egg|work|egg>
I hope NK's setup will manage to load that
<rsparkyc>
yeah, i don't play stock
<rsparkyc>
i think his setup should work
<egg|work|egg>
ok, will try when I get back from work then
<rsparkyc>
awesome, thx
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<egg|work|egg>
rsparkyc: in case that doesn't work, please also attach your INFO log (the one that ends with the fatal error
<egg|work|egg>
)
<rsparkyc>
i thought it was in that archive
<egg|work|egg>
ah possibly
<rsparkyc>
yeah, it should be
<egg|work|egg>
rsparkyc: I haven't looked at the contents, I'm at work
<rsparkyc>
no prob, the archive should have the info log and the save file
<egg|work|egg>
rsparkyc: if we can't get a KSP install that works with it we might ask you to make a journal, we'll give you instructions (if it's a crash-on-load thing it should be easy)
<rsparkyc>
sounds good
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<egg|work|egg>
(basically set must_record_journal or whatever it's called to True in the save, load the save, observe the crash, send the JOURNAL-blah file)
<egg|work|egg>
rsparkyc: it's Catalan?
<egg|work|egg>
(you're not using one of lamont's more recent builds?)
<Duncan>
Hi all. It seems like procedural avionics cant be set to support less than 15.0T, is that the case or am I doing something wrong?
<rsparkyc>
it is his recent build
<rsparkyc>
Duncan, that is correct
<rsparkyc>
egg|work|egg, i can get you the exact build
<egg|work|egg>
rsparkyc: grump, that's kind of annoying
<Duncan>
someone said last time I was here that it is viable to make a 300mm proc. avionics module that does not cost or weigh too much
<egg|work|egg>
because that's not our build, and it's not an arch I can run things on...
<egg|work|egg>
(also means we can't replay journals)
<egg|work|egg>
rsparkyc: anyway, please provide all that information in the issue
<egg|work|egg>
phl isn't on IRC, so it would be nice if I didn't have to send him pigeons so he gets the details of which build and which platform this is
<rsparkyc>
yeah, i'm a mac guy, so that's the only way i can run it
<rsparkyc>
Duncan, there are different tiers of avionics
<Duncan>
ok
<rsparkyc>
as you progress in your career you can change to those other tiers
<Duncan>
alright, thanks
<egg|work|egg>
<rsparkyc> yeah, i'm a mac guy, so that's the only way i can run it << sure, but we need to know about it :-p always provide context with your issues
<rsparkyc>
that's fair
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] rsparkyc pushed 6 new commits to master: https://git.io/vHx2u
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 34c44c1 Joshua Levinson: Bump up merlin rated burn time
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 532574f Joshua Levinson: Add to doc section as well
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master abf1629 Joshua Levinson: Up rated burn times some more
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<Duncan>
How is the RD-108 supposed to work? It is supposed to have a 5 minute burn time but it cant lift 5 minutes worth of fuel
<Theysen>
Use the RD107 booster stages around it :)
<gazpachian>
either load it with less fuel or add some boosters :)
<Theysen>
RD108 is lower thrust and vacuum optimized iirc
<Duncan>
it comes out of the booster stage with a SLT of 0.98
<Pap>
If I want to add a new resource for Real Fuels, I have to also add it to the Community Resource Pack, correct?
<Duncan>
Oh right it would no longer be at sea level
<Pap>
Duncan: that means the boosters need to be larger and burn for the full amount of time, also, make sure th eRD-108 is firing at the same time as the RD-107 boosters
<Theysen>
Duncan, you want the core stage to be low thrust after booster separation
<Duncan>
is it worth using the aerodynamic nose cones?
<Theysen>
that's all the idea behind the design
<Duncan>
the 2m ones weigh a couple of T
<Pap>
Duncan: you need to have some kind of nose cones, yes
<Theysen>
somewhat like Atlas 1.5 stage
<Duncan>
ok
<Theysen>
Duncan, on what parts? (the nose cones)
<Duncan>
procedural. I was wrong though, 250kg
<Theysen>
you can make the boosters tanks 0m in diameter at the to
<Theysen>
p
<Maxsimal>
Hi there. Quick question for you guys - is it anywhere on anyone's radar to look at costs for solid rocket motors, both procedural and non?
<Pap>
Hey Maxsimal thank you for the feedback on the contracts, I like your ideas and am looking into how to implement them!
<Pap>
Maxsimal: Not in particular, did you want to help out with that?
<Maxsimal>
Oh wow that's awesome Pap!
<Maxsimal>
And yeah, I was thinking of giving it a go. I'm not sure how they're priced historically, was going to do a bit of research, but right now balance wise, they never seem to be a better choice than liquid fueled engines that unlock at similar or even earlier eras
<Theysen>
solids are very very case speficic most of the times and were tailored for their specific purpose
<Theysen>
really hard to use them right. It get's easier once you use them to lift your hydrolox core from the ground into more efficient altitudes. the small ones are more difficult to find fit for
<Theysen>
+ avionics and attitude controlled needed increases mass and thus delta v if you want to use a small altair e.g. to brake into a lunar landing
<Theysen>
* decreases delta v
<Agathorn>
Pap were you looking for me last night?
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<Maxsimal>
Well, I mostly have looked at the larger ones for boosters on my first stage, not the pricing of the specialized ones that are used as kick stages. But with those boosters, it always seems to be that you get better cost & better performance out of liquid fueled engines - which seems unreasonable? Am I misunderstanding?
<Pap>
I sure was Agathorn|Work, but I cannot remember why
<Agathorn|Work>
:)
<Pap>
Ah, I know, is the Test Flight wiki the best place to look for the failures that exist for other parts?
<Agathorn|Work>
Mostly yes
<Agathorn|Work>
or ask myself or xShadowx because the wiki isn't perfect
<Agathorn|Work>
or the code :)
<Pap>
ok, what is the best source file to look at? I would rather attempt to go that route before I ask you guys specifically
<Agathorn|Work>
well assuming you are looking at how to config a given failure, you would want to look at that failures file
<Agathorn|Work>
They wil always (or should always) be named TestFlightFailure_*
<Pap>
I "should" be able to take it from here (until my next batch of dozens of questions)
<Agathorn|Work>
Here is the catch though
<Agathorn|Work>
the RO preparser is specifically designed for engines
<Agathorn|Work>
so you will either A) Need to make a new preparser that offloads some of the work for you on other parts or B) write up full TF configs for the new stuff
<Pap>
Right, so a new one would have to be written for other parts, or they would have to be fully configured which you have said is large
<Pap>
ah, you ninja'ed me, glad I understand it correctly thought
<Pap>
s/thought/though
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: ah, you ninja'ed me, glad I understand it correctly though
<Agathorn|Work>
what I would recommend you do is just grab a random engine from your MM config and yank out the TestFlight* modules into a new file so you can see it
<Pap>
that is a great idea
<Agathorn|Work>
engines have some unique stuff, btu the overall structure will be correct
<Agathorn|Work>
TF is very config verbose, basically it is a modular system
<Agathorn|Work>
you add configs for each module you want to have on the part
<Theysen>
Maxsimal, because solid boosters are easy and don't fail iirc. need to balance that with the cost
<Agathorn|Work>
Pap when you do your first part, pick something simple and I will walk you through it.. the "configration syntax" used internally by TF will probably trip you up at first
<Theysen>
irl they are cheap expendable thrust cans, you wouldn't want to design and build costly liquid engines to throw away Maxsimal
<Pap>
So, the Vanguard had something like a 72% failure rate, how does that reliability translate into engine reliability numbers?
<Senshi>
Uh, Solid boosters do fail, @Theysen. Challenger and stuff?
<Pap>
oh, Agathorn|Work I actually read that last night and I thought that made sense to me
<Agathorn|Work>
the engines were originally done by exhausting research and an uber spreadsheet..let me see if I can find it
<Theysen>
Senshi, talking ingame. I can't remember
<Maxsimal>
Right Theysen, but right now in RP0, you pay MORE if you use solid boosters, and it takes longer to construct your rocket, is my point.
<Pap>
Theysen: almost none (possibly none at all) of the solids are TF configured
<Maxsimal>
A few of them have them - Altairs do, was just looking at those.
<Theysen>
I know that those little baby sergeants had TF configs once and that made for a nice carousel
<Theysen>
Maxsimal, yes I faintly remember being in the same spot not even to bother building with solids
<Pap>
To me, the solid booster failure should be straight explosions. That way if you risk using them on crewed vehicles, you get the results that unfortunately happened with Challenger
<Agathorn|Work>
Pap ok so on engines what I did after research was narrow down the number of times an engine flew, and the number of times I could confirm a failure occured on an angine. I also determined the stage burn time. Then I basically did Failure Rate = Failures / (Flights * Burn Time)
<Maxsimal>
Was doing a comparison between an Altair 2 and AJ10-27 just a minute ago - AJ10-27 unlocks earlier, has ¬same thrust, slightly worse performance but better actual impulse because of the lower dry mass%, and costs 1/3rd of the altair, including tank for the AJ
<Pap>
Ah, Agathorn|Work that makes so much more sense!
<Theysen>
then we should make the solids the cheap alternative they are irl too
<Theysen>
Pap, but a solid rocket booster doesn't explode that way
<Pap>
I know that TF is checking (every second?) so you have to have the reliability high due to that
<Theysen>
it had a little "fart hole" if you so will which wrecked the external tank..
<Pap>
Theysen: true, it spewed fire into the ET that exploded, hard to model taht though
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<Maxsimal>
SS SRB is pretty weird outlier anyway, most SRB's are not segmented OR designed for reusability.
<Theysen>
and if we take it further, not even in RO we model weather and advise against engineering complaints about the rubber conditions in that o-ring
<Agathorn|Work>
Pap for comparison, assuming it hasn't change since I did these intial numbers, the Vanguard's X-405 has a failure rate of 0.000575
<Pap>
I understand Agathorn|Work, so you only modeled the failure rate based on the engine failing, not something like an Atlas exploding because of a tank failure, correct?
<Agathorn|Work>
correct
<Pap>
got ti
<Pap>
*it
<Agathorn|Work>
the same theory should apply to other parts.. figure out the amount of TIME the part was actually flown, and determine the number of TIMES it failed
<Agathorn|Work>
hmm that actually wasn't so clear
<Pap>
no, that makes sense
<Maxsimal>
Does anyone know how the initial costs were set for our solids now? Did someone look up MSRP's and convert to 1960's dollars?
<Pap>
Maxsimal: do you have Excel?
<Agathorn|Work>
Maxsimal: if you look in the config there will often be citations, but basically yes we do a lot of research on known prices, try to account for Tooling, R&D, and Manufacturing and convert the dollars
<Maxsimal>
What did you do with engines that flew a relatively low # of times, where the sample set would be too small to estime Agathron?
<Agathorn|Work>
Maxsimal: with small sample sets we just tried to do our best :)
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<Pap>
yes Maxsimal so when you figure out the cost, whether it is the R&D cost or the Cost of 1 unit, enter that in Column C, Enter either Entry or Cost in Column D and the year of the $ value you have. It will auto convert it to the $ we use in 1965 dollars for RP-0
<Maxsimal>
I wonder if perhaps the cost of solids is inaccurate because the actual purchase-from-contractor cost is accurate, but the cost of storage/testing/integration etc with the launch stack is much much less for them vs a liquid engine (not sure if I'm using the right terminology here, i'm not an engineer )
<Maxsimal>
@Pap gotcha, thank you :)
<Agathorn|Work>
possibly.. most of use have acknowledged that RP0 is currently lacking in a way to represent integration costs
<Agathorn|Work>
KCT is supposed to do that for us
<Agathorn|Work>
but it dosn't quite wok out ideally
<Agathorn|Work>
also bear in mind that IIRC R&D costs on solids is actually quite high
<Agathorn|Work>
irl
<Pap>
Maxsimal: once Magico13 gets his ScrapYard fully integrated with KCT, it might be a better system
<Agathorn|Work>
or was at oine time
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<Maxsimal>
@Agathorn Really? Even vs liquid fueld engines?
<Agathorn|Work>
anyway I really work now :)
<Maxsimal>
Ok, happy trails! I'm just finishing work - actually just waiting out a traffic jam so I can head home.
<Maxsimal>
@Pap Yes I'm looking forward to Scrapyard & KCT, when KCT did its own part inventory I had a lot of fun with that + Stage Recovery, seeing how much I could salvage.
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<Maxsimal>
Hrmm, but overall based on feedback, I'm not sure what would be reasonable to attempt with making SRBs more cost balanced - if the numbers are historically accurate already, they don't seem to serve a rational purpose, which doesn't make sense. Any ideas?
<waerloga>
I always thought SRBs were supposed to be cheaper
<waerloga>
and easier to store long term
<Maxsimal>
well, the long term storage thing is definitely true - but we're not in the ICBM business :)
<waerloga>
well, look at ArianeSpace's Vega rocket
<waerloga>
purpose built mostly-SRB launcher
<waerloga>
unlike orbital that's re-using old minutemen missiles
<Pap>
Maxsimal: Even if the numbers we have for SRB's are historically accurate, there is a lot of stuff that we cannot currently take into account for costs of launches / R&D / tooling, etc. If the whole point of SRB's in real life is that they provide a ton of high TWR for cheap, then changing the numbers to improve the gameplay SHOULD supercede historical numbers
<xShadowx>
storage should be harder no? solid fuel would be harder to put in on demand, so srb would stay fueled, while liquid fuels could pump in, and tanks store empty ;p
<xShadowx>
Maxsimal: this is kerbals........99% of what gets built in ICBMs
<Pap>
xShadowx: storage takes up more space, but they can stay stored fully fueled which is why they were so often used as ICBM's
<Agathorn|Work>
Maxsimal: I' not neccesarily saying what we currently have is correct.. it might be wrong, especially if there i no citation
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<Duncan>
Hey who here is an actual scientist?
<Maxsimal>
Ok. Well, I'll start digging into it and come back to you guys after I've got some research done. I like the idea of having SRBs have a place as boosters in a career campaign, hopefully there'll be a way to adjust for that.
<Pap>
Agathorn is a Computer Scientist
<Maxsimal>
Does computer science count? :P
<Duncan>
Well if you are engaged in actual scientific simulation building or something like that - research. I guess even research into new types of algorithm would probably count
<Duncan>
I have a computer science degree but I build industrial software so I am not practicing science
<Duncan>
practising*
<Duncan>
hmm still looks wrong
<Pap>
Duncan: I think the first way, practicing is correct
<Maxsimal>
Can't help you then. Mostly I do design work nowadays.
<Duncan>
Anyway the reason I ask is that I am looking for a word for people like myself, and probably most people here, who are interested in science, read scientific papers and generally do sciency stuff.
<Duncan>
It seems that the english language (and most other languages) have this hard scientist - non-scientist distinction
<Duncan>
which seems unhelpful
<Duncan>
I mean someone who worked for nasa designing rockets and then retired and started building a game like KSP would no longer be scientist
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] Bornholio opened pull request #1683: Update RO_RCS_Config.cfg for 1kN thruster Fuel gauges (master...Bornholio-1kN-thruster-Fuel-Gauge) https://git.io/vHxdf
<lamont>
geek
<Pap>
Duncan: Citizen Scientists or Amateur Scientists I think are catching on as terms used
<waerloga>
Duncan: oh, they'd still be considered a scientist
<lamont>
nerd
<Pap>
dweeb
<Duncan>
but to not have a way to distinguish such a person from say - Donald Drumpf seems like imprecision
<waerloga>
but someone like me, who's interested, but has never (really) done it professionally would be considered an "amateur"
<Duncan>
amateur scientist
<Duncan>
ok
<waerloga>
also yes "citizen scientist" is starting to catch on too
<Duncan>
it is kind of a spectrum
<waerloga>
especially in astronomy
<Pap>
Duncan: the difference is Normal Person vs Moron, that is easily distinguished
<Duncan>
both of those imply actually doing some science
<Maxsimal>
Science Enthusiast might also work for you
<Duncan>
that one works well
<xShadowx>
Pap: ouch :P
<Pap>
Duncan: I would argue that "doing" science is not a necessary thing to be an amateur scientist
<waerloga>
Pap: normal and cheeto?
<Borntosleep>
I work with all kinds of "scientists" range of degrees mostly chemists. I end up doing more science tahn they do, they end up doing sales .smirk
<Maxsimal>
You could also call them a science dillettente
<Pap>
Asking questions, being skeptical, not believing everything you are told, asking for proof, asking why, those are the signs of an amateur scientist to me
<Maxsimal>
*dilettante
<Duncan>
I feel like language effects the way we think and act and there is a massive gulf between the scientific establishment and the population at large. It seems that having better language to describe scientific interest and ability would be helpful
<Pap>
Duncan: I do not think you are wrong
<Duncan>
Well someone should
<xShadowx>
you're all wrong, the only titles that are important are bacon, and baconlesspleb
<Duncan>
thanks
<Duncan>
I have bacon
<Duncan>
what about cheese though
<Pap>
My mother in law is a great lady, but she is into homeopathy and I cannot have conversations with her about it or I start to get fired up and have to walk away
<xShadowx>
as do i :)
<Maxsimal>
I can't wait movies like Gravity without annoying my girlfriend with my commentary, so it can work both ways :P
<Maxsimal>
*watch
<Pap>
waerloga: To be more fair to morons (many times they cannot help it) It should probably be, Normal Person vs Narcissistic Person
<Pap>
Maxsimal: that is very true, I say things like that and my wife says, I could care less
<Duncan>
I don't know why scientists and enthusiasts get so fired up about homeopathy. Sure it has no empirical efficacy outside of the placebo effect but lots of things dont, and yet homeopathy seems to be a much sorer spot than most of the others
<Maxsimal>
Anyway, I'm off, thanks for the insight! Later!
<Duncan>
later
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<Duncan>
So pap, any insight about that?
<Pap>
Duncan: I think because of how it is presented, oh, you have cancer? I have anecdotal evidence that this Essential Oil will cure your cancer, use that instead of poisining yourself with chemotheropy that has scientific evidence of working
<Duncan>
funny you should mention chemo, the empirical efficacy of that is pretty low, higher than homeopathy but still not great
<Pap>
Obviously that is an extreme case, but it is all anecdotal evidence vs scientific evidence
<Pap>
If someone wanted to present me with a homeopopathic alternative, and they brought be scientific evidence, I would listen
<Duncan>
A recent study of palliative care suggested that not doing chemo and instead trying to be as comfortable as possible for the remaining time actually had better longevity results
<Pap>
To me, homeopathy is tied into the idea of anti-vaxxers as well
<Borntosleep>
Homeopathy is litterally nothing in water, the more closer to nothing, the more Homeopathic. So if nothing is better than something, it works better.
<Duncan>
Not that that has any bearing on the discussion
<Duncan>
What I said I mean, your comment was spot on
<Pap>
Duncan: I can believe that, my mom died when I was 15 from cancer and the treatment for it was terrible for her, but I think if you would have asked her, she would have done it again because she got 6 more months (most likely) than with no treatment with her kids
Borntosleep is now known as bornholio
<Duncan>
except of course that there is more to it than that, often it is a marketing ploy. If I have a medicine that requires a dosage of 2.5mg to work, I can make a version (different label) that says D3 75mg homepathic <medicine name> and sell it to a different market, often at a markup
<xShadowx>
would you rather have chemo and be sick as a dog for the rest of your time to live a few months longer? or go out feelin and visiting the fun places of the world ;p
<xShadowx>
feelin good*
<Duncan>
the meds will work in both cases
<Pap>
xShadowx: it all depends on your circumstances, if you asked me 2 years ago, I am going to see the world, now that I have a daughter, I am going to fight my ass off, even if it is worse for me, to try to survive
<Pap>
Well Duncan, talking about big business pharma gets into a whole other discussion of greed vs good that is probably polarizing
<xShadowx>
Pap: but on the flip side, that has costs, many people sell their houses, even leaves debts to their kids, to gain those few months
<xShadowx>
so while you think you're stickin around to help, the millions spent isn't help?
<Pap>
xShadowx: oh, I understand that as well
<Pap>
In those circumstances, absolutely not worth it
<xShadowx>
id rather take fun pills (not some fakey 'cure') and go out with fun :D
<Pap>
xShadowx: like Ecstacy?
<xShadowx>
Pap: you're gone in a year or 2, chance at gaining a few months with chemo, so why not?
<xShadowx>
hell i havent even had booze yet XD (and im 35 wtf is wrong with me)
<Pap>
Hard to argue
<Pap>
xShadowx: really?
<xShadowx>
weed is legal in my state
<xShadowx>
Pap: well i mean 2-3 times a tad of rum in cake, tequila in salsa etc, not really enough to get a buzz or anythin
<Duncan>
Did I just get DC?
<Duncan>
apparently not
<xShadowx>
that time when you think you just made a nice rover, then go to launch it on earth for a test and gravity crushes it o.o
* xShadowx
forgot it was intended food moon grav
<Duncan>
Another thing that bothers me about homeopathy hatred is that every time a homeo-believer points to an idea or study and says 'that supports homeopathy', that idea or study is immediately rejected and ridicules by the whole scientific community regardless of its actual merit
<xShadowx>
for*
<Pap>
Duncan: are you in the UK?
<Duncan>
No
<Pap>
Ah, was curious becuase I know that homeopothy was really attacked there
<Duncan>
I am very much in favour of using and promoting medicine that has empirically proven benefits, just a disclaimer
<Pap>
Back to RP-0 for a second, this new tech tree makes tech selection difficult, in a good way
<Theysen>
any news on what difficulty to play and balanced against?
<Pap>
bornholio: is your name derived from Beavis and Butthead?
<Theysen>
or still testing?
<Theysen>
hard screwed me last time I tested
<Pap>
Theysen: I am playing on Moderate with 100% funds penalties
<Theysen>
very well
<Theysen>
100% is needed for the upgrades
<Duncan>
Moderate screwed me
<Theysen>
we should mark that in our new
<Theysen>
<Pap>
That is what KNell told me
<Duncan>
On moderate you need to basically make 0 mistakes
<Theysen>
fancy RP-0 OP once rsparkyc gets around to giving it some love
<Theysen>
Duncan, current RP-0 tree is intended for hard
<Pap>
KNell is planning on making a custom config for difficulty I believe
<rsparkyc>
what am i doing?
<Pap>
^ the work of angels
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<Theysen>
rsparkyc, at some point incorporating a new RP-0 OP design for the thread with all updated information. I volunteer in doing so so you can copypasta it
<rsparkyc>
Theysen, that works for me
<Duncan>
I dont feel like it is even possible on hard
<Duncan>
unless you mean hard difficulty matches with real life
<Duncan>
I have no issue with that I am pretty sure I couldn't get into orbit in the 60's in real life
<Theysen>
Duncan, all it does is control science income basically
<Theysen>
and you still get plenty
<Theysen>
just don't bust contract deadlines
<Duncan>
no, the cost of upgrading facilities massively increases with higher difficulties
<Duncan>
and the income from contracts decreases
<Duncan>
meaning you either have to do like 6000 sounding rocket launches to upgrade the launch pad, or get into orbit from the 40t one
<Theysen>
that's the thing: Fund Penalties has to be set to 100%
<Theysen>
after you selected "hard"
<Duncan>
ok
<Duncan>
didn't know that
<Theysen>
yeah that's somewhat of mouth to mouth "propaganda"
<Theysen>
I guess once we have everything set for the new tree and contracts the wiki and all needs some love
<bornholio>
rsparkyc side note, CKAN should point at your new thread for RP-0 instead of Git for both should i go poke CKAN people?
<bornholio>
or does RO/RP-0 manage the file
<rsparkyc>
i'm not sure how the ckan part works, i haven't messed with that
<bornholio>
I'm picking on little things today. I'll go look
<bornholio>
Pap, yes and no, old college joke and Cornholio
<Pap>
gotcha
<bornholio>
also i have no TP for my bungholio
<Pap>
^now that is a real problem
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<gazpachian>
"The KSP brain trust" - someone in chat yesterday
<gazpachian>
today: poop jokes
<bornholio>
not really just Beavis and buthead reference, that may be worse.
<gazpachian>
I mean, that show was assuredly more intellectual than any programming they run on MTV nowadays, but still
<Pap>
B&B was a generational landmark
<bornholio>
generational skidmark... but yes deeply it was a statement about the society using TV to manage childrenn and the results (in humor)
<xShadowx>
i thought i left kspmodders howd i get back in here
<bornholio>
thoguth you went off to sample recreastional drugs. was theat the readon?
<bornholio>
s/readon/reason
<Qboid>
bornholio meant to say: thoguth you went off to sample recreastional drugs. was theat the reason?
<bornholio>
god PEBCAK today, spurlin
bornholio is now known as BornToWork
<Agathorn|Work>
woah did china seriously just actually manage to send data using quantum entanglement?!
<Agathorn|Work>
ok so they are just sending one half of each pair across a distance..not actually sending data by looking at the pairs' state
<Agathorn|Work>
so only one side of the problem basically
<Duncan>
does measuring the state of the protons break the connection?
<BornToWork>
they also did communications and found that it was not perfectly private
<Agathorn|Work>
they did communications by observing the state?
<BornToWork>
measuring doesn't always but the measurement is readable by all other entangled particles
<BornToWork>
protons should be better since they can be held in position and manipulated easier, but entangling them is complex
<BornToWork>
similar work being done in Vancouver, trying to find the article i saw a while back
<BornToWork>
the main problen is decoherence, same with Qcomputing, and cooling the circuit to ~10-30milikelvin is the answer so far
<Duncan>
do you have any links to studies about the actual transmission of information on such a link?
<Agathorn|Work>
it was my understanding though that if you can modify the state of one half of the pair and measure the state of the other half of the pair that it *should* be instantaneous
<Agathorn|Work>
which still boggles my brain
<Duncan>
BornToWork said it was still speed of light
<BornToWork>
no speed of information is limited to the speed of light
<Agathorn|Work>
right hence my statement
<Agathorn|Work>
but the entanglment is supposed to be be instant
<Duncan>
that boggles my brain too
<Agathorn|Work>
I mean that is what they say anyway - how it can be I don't know
<Duncan>
how do such tiny particles effect each other of such distance
<Agathorn|Work>
BornToWork: the change in the pair is supposed to be instant, so other than time taken to modify and measure (milliseconds?) the transmission should be instant
<BornToWork>
imagine a stiff cable between two baloons, turn one balloon and the other turns as the translation mooves along the cable, the
<Duncan>
right but in this case there is no cable
<BornToWork>
speed is a function of the force doing the entangling, in this case all force involved operate at the speed of light
<Agathorn|Work>
AFAIK no one has explained the force
<Agathorn|Work>
and tests have shown the change to be faster than light
<Agathorn|Work>
hmm ok both seems to be true which is a pradox to me lol
<Agathorn|Work>
Recent experiments have measured entangled particles within less than one hundredth of a percent of the travel time of light between them.[7] According to the formalism of quantum theory, the effect of measurement happens instantly.[8][9] It is not possible, however, to use this effect to transmit classical information at faster-than-light speeds
<Agathorn|Work>
the change is instant yet not instant? Yeah QM hurts my brain
<Agathorn|Work>
I go back to work now :)
<BornToWork>
who stated it was faster than light, journalists love that stick and its always just bad interpretations. information transferfater than light violates causality and well if they can prove it doesn't physics is throwing a world class party
<BornToWork>
you work hard!
<Agathorn|Work>
That was from wikipedia.. I think what it boils down to is the pairs can be observed even over vast distances instantly, but you can;t MODIFY one and then view the other instantly
<Agathorn|Work>
so you COULD view a static state (that was encoded originally) over any distant instantly
<Agathorn|Work>
but you couldn't transmit anything by changing one side
<Agathorn|Work>
which really means it is no different than writing a message on a piece of paper an then putting two copis of that paper in two different locations
* xShadowx
wishes he was born 400 years late
<BornToWork>
correct, the information is inherently SOL
<BornToWork>
or less
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<Agathorn|Work>
BTW anyone insterested in SpaceX's recent publication on Mars Colonization, grab the PDF while its free. The magazine it was pubnlished in apparently is only making it free for a few weeks
<soundnfury>
Agathorn|Work: well, it's more complifusing than that. Because the static state appears to be _created_ when you observe it. Of course that's not really what happens, because many worlds...
<soundnfury>
... when you observe it, you become entangled with it, so now there's two of you, one in each branch, each seeing a single pure state
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stratochief_ is now known as stratochief
<stratochief>
Agathorn|Work: om nom nom, thanks for the link!
<Pap>
thanks regex!
<stratochief>
Pap: I skimmed the backchat shodily, did you ever get an answer about adding a resource?
<Theysen>
wowsa, ESA's mission to mercury.. 290mN electric thruster, 9 gravity assists, 7.2 years of cruose
<stratochief>
beryllium seems to be the only one that is added in there, but it looks like a good example. if CRP isn't speedy in accepting your addition, that is a good place to add it
<Pap>
Wow Theysen, that is something crazy!
<stratochief>
Theysen: that is a pretty powerful thruster. can you share your source?
<stratochief>
I'm curious of the ISp, and nature of the electric propulsion unit they intend to use
<stratochief>
if you're diving at mercury, I suppose you'll have plenty of electricity to power yourself
<Pap>
stratochief: It will probably best just added to RO since it is going to be essentially Communications Electronics and a separate Weather Satellite Electronics, and a Military Electronics that will be required for some fo the satellite missions
<Theysen>
stratochief, why are 290 millinewton much for such a thruster? oO
<Pap>
It will create extra mass that will require different types of launch vehicles to successfully complete the missino
<stratochief>
Pap: ahh. so that you can control the mass a player carries on a satellite contract?
<stratochief>
Theysen: because my Electric Propolsion (EP) memory is calibrated to Dawn
<Pap>
Exactly stratochief, and so NathanKell cannot finish a weather contract and comsat on the same mission anymore
<stratochief>
which as 90 mN
<Theysen>
dawn is so very old though :)
<stratochief>
Theysen: well, so are we all
<Theysen>
all the progress for probe propulsion goes towards those stupid low thrust electric engines, THINK ABOUT RO GAMEPLAY PLEASE THANKS
<stratochief>
Theysen: Dawn only got to Ceres a few years ago, for crying out loud
<BornToWork>
Dawn 1.8 hummingbirds
<stratochief>
Theysen: you like to complain, but think about that juicy raptor engine, and whatever the other new US space companies are brewing for their upcoming rockets
* Theysen
won't stick a raptor to a probe though
<Theysen>
The engine might just eat the probe as fuel lol
<stratochief>
wiki lists the Raptor as a 3285 kN vacuum engine, which is 3x a J-2
* UmbralRaptor
attaches HiPEP engines to Theysen's probes.
<stratochief>
ehh, once heavier lift, cheaper launchers exist, they can just throw arrays of 290 mN EP units onto your 15 tonne probe
<Theysen>
they do the mercury insertion on a good old 4kN bipropellant engine though :D
<stratochief>
lol. weak, low energy, sad.
<Theysen>
well I think mercury is just to small to insert on the electrics before you're off again
<Theysen>
and still those 9 gravity assists help tremendously. I only ever did a flyby of mercury in RO, and it was crazy fast although during a good window
<stratochief>
well, I think the EP and gravity assists will be helping to drastically reduce the dV required for insertion
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/vHpGh
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 3b70fa4 Pap: Merge pull request #1683 from Bornholio/Bornholio-1kN-thruster-Fuel-Gauge...
<Pap>
Someone is going to need to get on a much more powerful Ion Engine for RO
<stratochief>
Pap: or, figure out how to make persistant thrust compatible with RO/RF
<Theysen>
I'd say we just up the thrust a lot
<Pap>
According to the link you sent Theysen, it appeasrs that 340 mN is the top end
<Theysen>
Yeah
<Pap>
Each engine at 170
<BornToWork>
Yeah my first commit. The NF RCS is obscenely powerful compared to the NF drives in RO. they are like 100-150N
<Theysen>
they're in a row again for redundancy right?
<stratochief>
Pap: but even an ion engine that is 10x as thrust-y would suck in RO, same reason that the DCSS-4 style upper stage isn't popular
<Theysen>
I always fly those :(
<Pap>
I agree stratochief, those are some long burns
<Theysen>
DCSS with the 5m diameter, riding apo all day long
<Theysen>
Orion on top, to the Moon we go
<Pap>
rsparkyc: when are you planning on hotfixing RP-0 again?
<BornToWork>
Does the solar sail accel in TW mod work in RO?
<stratochief>
Theysen: fair enough. that puts you in the minority though. nuclear propulsion would be somewhat similar, and I'd rather play with nuclear than EP
<stratochief>
BornToWork: TW?
<BornToWork>
timewarp
<rsparkyc>
soonish
<rsparkyc>
Pap, opened up a bug that i'm trying to fix now
<Theysen>
stratochief, I was talking the RL-10 on a DCSS or what is your DCSS referring toß
<stratochief>
BornToWork: no idea, but I wouldn't expect so. if you try it out, report back :)
<Pap>
rsparkyc: yes, that is why I was asking...I am going to push a contract fix
<Theysen>
BornToWork, Near Future stuff is balanced against stock gameplay and for player's sanity
<stratochief>
Theysen: yep, same thing. single RL-10 takes a long time to push a payload around. basically a space-tug responsible for making orbit itself. nuclear propulsion tends to be the same, low T/W space-tug
<rsparkyc>
Pap: sounds good
<Theysen>
stratochief, yes even the HUS for SLS is the same low thrust. I generally put J2 on it to have some more free time..
<stratochief>
Theysen: I usually just burn at 4x timewarp, and watch youtube
<Theysen>
I can't look away though :/
<stratochief>
dual screen master race
<Theysen>
especially during launch
<stratochief>
Theysen: you gotta make a kRPC script or something. or, buy a second screen :P
<Pap>
yes stratochief, but at 4x time warp, the overcorrections and wobble from MJ can cause some big burn issues
<Theysen>
first one is nice, though I suck at those
<Pap>
stratochief: Three Screen = Masterest Race
<Theysen>
if MechJeb would have a function to just keep V/S at 0 or between a limit
<stratochief>
I've only got deskspace for 2 screens, and barely room for that
<Pap>
I am trying to decide if going to 2 ultrawide is the better option or not
<Pap>
Since I cannot afford a 16:10 monitor, damn those things are stupid expensive
<stratochief>
Pap: put more money into your emergency fund, or towards retirement :P
<stratochief>
you're long past the bend in the cost vs return curve on screens
<Pap>
Damnit, I hate when people make sense :)
<stratochief>
Pap: you'll thank me later :)
<stratochief>
your kids will need that money when a semester at a crap college is beyond 50k/year
* Theysen
builds a Vega now for TWR's sake
<stratochief>
Theysen: lol. I throw 4x AJ-260s onto my stretch Saturn V for TWR
<Pap>
I know they will stratochief, that shit is going to be completely unaffordable by then
<Theysen>
by the time I have children we'll live in caves again and hunt deer
<stratochief>
I opt to not have children. I'm a better uncle, packing additional information and skill into the existing stock of small humans
<stratochief>
Theysen: sounds like you are an optimist. do you think that 8 years of trump will leave any deer or children alive? :P
<Pap>
Call me crazy, but I think that Trump being president might actually wind up being good for the long term of the US. Anecdotally, more people I know are at least involved politically right now. He may set us back in some areas, but if more people become informed, we will be better off as a country and a species
<stratochief>
Pap: I give him a 50% change of doing 8 years at present. really, it depends if the mid-term elections go differently than they always do, with underwhelming voter turnout and apathy. need a congress & senate to vote for impeachement, and this one won't
<Pap>
BornToWork: I watched that the other day, some interesting tidbits I didn't know
<BornToWork>
One of manleys better videos lately.
<stratochief>
Pap: are you aware of the 'chaos monkey' system of improving the resiliency of a system?
<Pap>
No, something for me to read on it stratochief?
<Theysen>
Ukrainian built, for the AVUM orbital tug on the Vega, it's restartable for preciser orbit insertion
<Pap>
Ah, ForgottenRealEngines
<Pap>
looks purdy
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<Theysen>
yes those mods were a life saver for my european space fanboying
<Theysen>
same as niche parts with all the Airbus DS upper engines
<Pap>
huh, did you knwo that you can cheat the highly pressurized requirement of engines?
<Pap>
If you have a fuel tank that is highly pressurized and attach the engine to that, the tank above that can be a regular tank, not highly pressurized and work fine
<stratochief>
Pap: shhhhh. don't share my secret
<Pap>
lol
<stratochief>
but yeah, ultimately anything can be cheated
<Pap>
I did it accidentally, but great success!
<BornToWork>
how is that secret, baloon tanks and little RCS tanks for pressure...
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<Theysen>
dirty cheaters
<Theysen>
I liked how NathanKell mentioned the very low thrusts on actual RCS pods in real life compared to their host's total mass
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<Bornholio>
Pap should I PR that little config for the DMagic parts?
<Pap>
yes, i'll check it and commit it
<rsparkyc>
Pap, you making a PR for your contract fixes?
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<Pap>
Hmmm, once I make them rsparkyc, give me a couple minutes
<rsparkyc>
no prob, might leave soon, so I could put together the release tonight
<rsparkyc>
are you fixing the kerbal rendezvous error?
<Pap>
yep
<rsparkyc>
sweet
<Pap>
well, hopefully
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] Bornholio opened pull request #1684: Bornholio dm no us patch (master...Bornholio-DM-noUS-Patch) https://git.io/vHp4Y
<schnobs>
Theysen: I like how, for their low thrust and scale, even RCS nozzles are expensive like hell. Or so I heard.
<Theysen>
what's actually cheap in the space industry
<schnobs>
(paraphrasing) one of the apollo RCS thrusters cost USD 30.000; at the time this was the price of a rolls royce automobile. If you look at the apollo spacecraft, that's sixteen rolls royces right there.
<Theysen>
when certifying a fckn screw costs you several thousand euros just to make it flight proven
<Theysen>
that's impressive for a nozzle only, yowsa
<Bornholio>
a 30$ antenna for a car is 3000 for a plane
<schnobs>
alright, so they blew up a lot of them and went on a wild goose hunt. You know the story?
<schnobs>
How RCS nozzles would blow up during testing?
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<Pap>
rsparkyc: you can go ahead and update without me today, this fix is going to take some input from Jarromy
<rsparkyc>
ok, still working on my fix too, just make it when you're ready
<rsparkyc>
if you're on, i'll ping you before i do a release
<Theysen>
schnobs, I've seen blowing a RCS nozzle live
<Theysen>
that's so brutal although it was tiny little thruster
<Theysen>
20N or so
<schnobs>
Shrapnel?
<Theysen>
was just gone and the endings were tilted beyond recognition
<Theysen>
into the surrounding safety wall
<schnobs>
ouch.
<Theysen>
absolutely
<schnobs>
But I was talking specifically about the Apollo problem.
<schnobs>
Their valves wouldn't actuate perfectly in unison; so at every burn, their would be a tiny amount of fuel before ignition, and oxidizer after flameout.
<schnobs>
Both would condense and freeze against the inside of the nozzle.
<schnobs>
Until you gave it a good long burn...
<Theysen>
and then they had imbalances or even damage?
<schnobs>
Blowups.
<Theysen>
Blew the end off because of the iced residuals?
<schnobs>
Well, the iced residuals would combine and react once it became warm enough.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 closed pull request #1684: Bornholio dm no us patch (master...Bornholio-DM-noUS-Patch) https://git.io/vHp4Y
<Theysen>
how long did they take until they knew it was the valves?
<schnobs>
Eventually it turned out that the problem was specific to their high altitude test chamber. Which had a good vacuum, but not quite space-like. in spacem the stuff wouldn't condens in the first place.
<Theysen>
Ah! so they didn't even fix the valves?
<Theysen>
just went with the real environment of space and be done with?
<schnobs>
So I heard.
<schnobs>
The doc is in the dropbox collection which gets linked here every once in a while (don't have the link handy, though)
<schnobs>
Basically, some storytelling about the development of every engine on apollo, compiled from an anniversary conference some 20yrs later.
<schnobs>
Not overly scientific, but good stories. And while I havd heard about F-1 and J-2 before, the stuff about SPS and RCS was quite neat.
<Theysen>
I love those backgrounds. Something trivial like the rcs on such a big system giving headaches is just amazing and interesting how they tackled with it
<Pap>
schnobs: I was thinking about your tech tree comment yesterday, this is a question I had for everyone...Is it necessary for the Blue Sky Technologies to show arrows to the techs that require them, or should it be pretty well understood?
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<schnobs>
Pap, I have to admit that I don't even understand the question. I've been out of the loop for quite a while now.
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/vHpE8
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 8ed9339 Bornholio: Merge pull request #1 from Bornholio/Bornholio-1kN-thruster-Fuel-Gauge...
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 392b769 Bornholio: Config to remove DMagic part if no US mod...
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master c881633 Pap: Merge pull request #1684 from Bornholio/Bornholio-DM-noUS-Patch...
<soundnfury>
o/ leudaimon
<soundnfury>
also yay, you're in y3 now :)
<leudaimon>
o/ soundnfury!
<leudaimon>
yep, trying to sneak into the game a little
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<leudaimon>
is there anything wrong with reentries with regular heat shields?
<Bornholio>
I think so
<leudaimon>
there is no deceleration
<Bornholio>
not sure about that but most of mine have burned up before getting slowed down much
<leudaimon>
yeah, but the level of heating and the height I was at, I think I should be decelerating quite hard. Especially with a 1m heat-shield in a probe with less than 200kg
<leudaimon>
my max G before exploding wasn't even 2G
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<egg>
!tell rsparkyc so, we looked at your save; it seems tricky; do you happen to know whether the game was in the process of dewarping when you last saved/changed scene on that save?
<Qboid>
egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<leudaimon>
Starwaster, any idea if this ^ could be a DRE issue?
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: so my experience lately is that none of the ablator gets consumed but (so far) my probes survive reentry anyway. Dunno why.
<leudaimon>
weird
<Bornholio>
oh there is a RF patch for exploding tanks if you didn't see that last night
<leudaimon>
yeah, I caused that Bornholio
<Bornholio>
got it tested out?
<leudaimon>
my tanks were exploding...
<Bornholio>
now not exploding?
<leudaimon>
yeah, fixed...
<leudaimon>
just the heat shields not working properly
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<Bornholio>
leudaimon have you applied the new master , yesterday had NK's heat change tweak maybe that will fix it
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<schnobs>
JPLRepo: when asking about what kind of Linux I'm running, what exactly are you asking about? Kernel version?
<schnobs>
(just want to cut short on a few rounds of Q&A)
<JPLRepo>
Yes which debian kernal.
<JPLRepo>
although there is a known issue with lingoona on linux. not sure this is related.
<JPLRepo>
and yes there is a patch coming in 1.3.1 for that.
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<JPLRepo>
but if you can tell me more about your Debian I can get QA to test it before 1.3.1 to make sure it is fixed.
<leudaimon>
oh, good to know Borntowatchamovie, I'll grab it
<schnobs>
And... in hindsight, I'm sorry about shitting in the KSP Weekly thread.
<JPLRepo>
schnobs: all good. the modded support sub-forum just gets lower priority than the un-modded support sub-forum. As you would expect.
<JPLRepo>
but if it's happening vanilla. Then Yeah. Would like to make sure the lingoona patch we have works and fixes that issue.
<schnobs>
anything else? are there some libraries you might be interested in?
<JPLRepo>
schnobs: whatever you can provide. Will pass it on to QA. Although Ubuntu is the only 'officially' supported Linux.
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<soundnfury>
#gloriousdebianmasterrace
<schnobs>
soundnfury: is this what it's called these days?
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<NathanKell>
o/
<NathanKell>
leudaimon, Borntowatchamovie, try with RO git. That has changes to reentry heating
<regex>
o/
<Qboid>
regex: stratochief left a message for you in #RO [16.06.2017 19:42:01]: "have you started your RP-0 Science career?"
<NathanKell>
(latest master)
<regex>
!tell stratochief yes, I have started a science mode game.
<Qboid>
regex: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<leudaimon>
o/ NathanKell! I tried with the master and it worked, barely
<leudaimon>
went for a -300km peri, survived with less than 5 units of ablator
<taniwha>
NathanKell: got that heating bug sorted?
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<NathanKell>
leudaimon: RV pics with data?
<NathanKell>
taniwha: yeah
<NathanKell>
I believe so
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<Pap>
o/
<Pap>
So I talked to Nightingale, the Rendezvous with a Kerbal contract completion is an error on CC's side, nothing I can do to fix it, I have posted a bug report.
<NathanKell>
ah, nice work!
<Pap>
NathanKell: are you good with me adding 3 new resources...Communications Equipment, Weather Equipment, and Military Equipment for use with satellite contracts?
<NathanKell>
Yep!
<Pap>
OK great!
<Pap>
Agathorn, you are a wonderful person and I am glad that I know you