<Agathorn>
I'm going to get flamed on the internet for saying such a thing but if I have to have a host can't it be an attrative woman with a sexy accent? :D
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: meh, those are usually not as intelligent. What we like about john is that he's an engineer, and he _talks_ like an engineer.
<lamont>
get rebecca lowe from NBC’s premiere league coverage
<acc>
argh, 20m/s short to reach target AP
<Agathorn>
or Rob Lowe from West Wing - bet he'd be awesome at it :)
<JeeF>
Or do you have a link that explain that info?
<soundnfury>
JeeF: I'm guessing either read the AJE source code, or a book on jet engine design?
<Agathorn>
presumablyu they are AJE parmeters for that engin ebut beyond that - way over my head
<soundnfury>
eta sounds like efficiency, *PR are probably pressure ratios
<Agathorn>
Wonder if NathanKell would let me steal his "Reaching for Stars" for the title of my game.. i'm still floundering around for a good name
<soundnfury>
TIT is turbine intake temperature
<soundnfury>
Mdes and Tdes maybe Design Mach number and Temperature (dunno about units for the latter)
<Agathorn>
degrees I would imagine
* Agathorn
ducks
<JeeF>
Well that kinda sucks. I'm trying to fix some values that are incorrect but I don't even know where to start.
<Agathorn>
then how do you know they are wrong?
<JeeF>
Cos of all my tests ingame
<JeeF>
I know WHAT is wrong, but I cannot tell where does what I see in game equates to the cfg files
<JeeF>
Savvy?
<Agathorn>
I'm just here for the cookies
<soundnfury>
JeeF: then I suggest reading the AJE source code.
<soundnfury>
Hopefully it's commented :S
<JeeF>
For instance, the ramjet fuel flow starts getting to stratospheric levels at high mach numbers. It's like it grows exponentially, and it shouldn't
<JeeF>
At mach 7 it's gulping down over 25L a second
<JeeF>
empty your tanks in no time
<Agathorn>
sadly it doesn't look to be commented at all
<JeeF>
The compressed air doesn't need that much more fuel to be ignited
<Agathorn>
BlowFish, NathanKell and ferram4 probably the bets to talk to lookiung at the source contributors
<JeeF>
I could do by trial and error, change each value and test in game to see what it does. But my loading times are around 15 mins, lol
<JeeF>
it would be torture
<Agathorn>
changin properites without knowing what they are would be stupid
<JeeF>
Do any of you know of a standalone float curve editor?
<JeeF>
http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/112317-12x-amazing-curve-editor-111-dec-20th/ This one by Serbian is to run inside KSP, which means a long load time to try one curve, restart the game, etc
Pap|AFK is now known as Pap
<jclishman>
okay, lets try this once more
<Pap>
JeeF, didn't NathanKell have one on his excel spreadsheet?
<jclishman>
no clipping
<JeeF>
Can't remember Pap. Do you have a link please?
<Pap>
Let me look for it
<rsparkyc>
jclishman: make sure you set your orbital height pretty high if you're using mechjebs launcher
<rsparkyc>
it will cut the engines once your AP get's up to whatever you set
<Pap>
I don't know for sure that it does, but it has something that looked like a float curve to me (I have no idea what they are other than seeing them in CFG files)
<JeeF>
But it's useful anyways
<JeeF>
contains lots of good info
<Pap>
Someone should stream some RO-RPO with the new tech tree and contracts so I can watch :)
<Agathorn>
JeeF why would the one in Unity be slow to use?
<Agathorn>
Sarbian's runs in Unity notKSP
<JeeF>
I don't have unity installed
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<Agathorn>
oh sorry confusing tools
<Agathorn>
r4m0n's in the one I was thinking of
<Agathorn>
tbh I don't know if it even still works in Unity 5
<jclishman>
75km perigee for reentry
<JeeF>
download unity, install unity, get the tool, figure out the curve and the new values you need, copy to the cfg file, run game and test, go back to unity and repeat till happy. Sigh. Brain surgery seems simpler, lol
<xShadowx>
float curve tool?
<JeeF>
I just got home after riding a bike for 18km. I'm squinting at these cfg files in pain
<Agathorn>
well a standalone editor would be the same step 1
<Agathorn>
so not sure what you are wanting
<Agathorn>
sometimes things take effort
<xShadowx>
sarbian float curve tool runs in ksp
<Pap>
lol, what fun parts are you configuring JeeF ?
<jclishman>
pls work
<jclishman>
no explode
<jclishman>
uh oh
<jclishman>
it exploded
<JeeF>
For the float curve, I was looking into tuning the ramjet to operate better at higher altitudes. At the moment, it's losing thrust at 18km altitude, mach 7. The Concorde had a ceiling of 23km at mach 3. How on earth does the ramjet has lack of intake air at 18km at mach 7?
<JeeF>
So yeah, I wanted the float curve editor to fix that
<JeeF>
But laying on the couch is starting to look more attractive
<xShadowx>
and you dont need to restart ksp, just reload MM DB
<JeeF>
Furthermore, I was planning on creating a new scramjet from scratch for RSS+RO. But for that, I'd first need to really understand the mechanics of the CFG soup as it is. Squad engine cfg changed by AJE mod then changed by RO
<xShadowx>
heh
<JeeF>
aneurysm
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<xShadowx>
is it just me or do avatar movies keep getting eta to release pushed back......
<xShadowx>
couldve sworn avatar 2/3/4 was to come out like 2018/19/20
<xShadowx>
now 20/22/24 lol
<Agathorn>
reload MM DB never ever worked right for me.
<Agathorn>
Like, ever
<jclishman>
Q: Why does my shit keep explodng
<jclishman>
I'm entering at normal orbital velocity, I'm using a working heatshield
<jclishman>
Its not terribly heavy
<jclishman>
the hell am i doing wrong?
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<SirKeplan>
jclishman: what is your perigee?
<Agathorn>
you could record a reentry and post it, maybe someone could see what you were doign wrong from that
<JeeF>
Speaking of movies, have you guys seen the work on Top Gun 2 has started?
<JeeF>
Hope its as good as the first one
<JeeF>
They got Cruise and the blonde guy sign up
<JeeF>
Cruise only had 1 demand
<JeeF>
NO CGI
<jclishman>
SirKeplan: 85km
<JeeF>
haha, love that guy
<Agathorn>
and you believed him?
<JeeF>
who?
<Agathorn>
Cruise
<jclishman>
recording
<Agathorn>
There will be CG work in the film. Guaruntee it
<JeeF>
Well he does a lot of the action scenes. I know there will be CGI, and I hope it does. Nowdays some decent CGI beats anything that can be done live. But I would like to see them in real airplanes, really up in the air
<Agathorn>
getting tired of these films trying to gain street cred or something by touting how they do things physically with no CGI despite the fact that there is just as much post work done on their films as every other. Just shitting all over the work of people who work their asses off to finish the films off
<Agathorn>
bad enough that most vfx people never get any credits (while the dog groomers get theirs) but this new treend drives me crazy
<SirKeplan>
jclishman: huh, well i'd try a lower perigee, sometimes you can overheat by just hanging around up high for too long. little odd though.
<JeeF>
Its the same premise as saying "If you want realism, play KSP in IVA only". Well, yes, its more realistic. But without those external shots? Boooooooooooooring
<jclishman>
SirKeplan: 75ish?
<Agathorn>
have you tried 0ish?
<Agathorn>
heck I seem to recall most of mine having like negartive PEs :)
<SirKeplan>
jclishman: yeah, try single digits
<SirKeplan>
often a safe option
<JeeF>
if you're talking about earth pe for return, around 12km/s, I normally set mine around 50km. But I'm outta here, good night fellas
<JeeF>
and thanks for the help
<soundnfury>
xShadowx: Avatar Heavy
<jclishman>
will try 5km
<SirKeplan>
yeah 50km is good for return at escape volocity type speeds, but i think this is LEO
<jclishman>
although i dont think that'll help
<JeeF>
lol if he's in LEO, anything from 0 to 139,999m will work
<JeeF>
cya
<SirKeplan>
jclishman: it it doesn't work then something is probably borked.
<jclishman>
aww
<jclishman>
well, we'll see
<SirKeplan>
if it*
<soundnfury>
jclishman: Mercury capsules reentered with negative perigee (about a couple of hundred km iirc)
<jclishman>
soundnfury: this is just a film canister with a parachute on top and heat shield on the bottom
<soundnfury>
does the heat shield stick out beyond the canister?
<jclishman>
no
<soundnfury>
if it's flush the can will get heated
<SirKeplan>
you want it to stick out atleast a tiny bit.
<jclishman>
thats probably it
<jclishman>
goddammit
<soundnfury>
(also if you have KER installed, look at its thermal section to see what's getting hot)
<soundnfury>
jclishman: yeah effectively you have a conical region behind the heatshield that's 'safe'
<soundnfury>
cone half-angle depends on velocity, what temperature counts as 'safe', &c.
<jclishman>
lets try this, then
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<jclishman>
grr
<jclishman>
> when testflight screws you over while you're trying to test something
<jclishman>
oh wait you can disable it
<jclishman>
goo to know
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<Pap>
Yes! Finally managed to get the Suborbital Return contract completed!
<Pap>
^harder than it sounds with bad tech
<jclishman>
okay, trying to reenter now
<jclishman>
pls
<Pap>
Anyone know why SpaceX didn't attempt a landing today?
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<Agathorn>
payload was too heavy and too high
<Pap>
gotcha
<Agathorn>
no energy budget for landing
<Pap>
It looked like the launch was VERY fast getting vertical today
<jclishman>
the camera is having a seizure
<jclishman>
jesus
<Pap>
But I wasn't paying as much attention as normal
<jclishman>
but holy shit i think it's working
<jclishman>
Pap: Yeah, it booked it out of atmo
<jclishman>
Was going 200m/s faster at T+02:40 than SES-10
<jclishman>
holy shit it worked
<jclishman>
WOOOOO
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<jclishman>
*builds two*
<soundnfury>
jclishman: yay :)
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<Agathorn>
blarg
<Agathorn>
FYI The RPO thread links to a non-existing RO thread
<Agathorn>
not sure if we need pjf to fix that or not though
<Agathorn>
guess I shoudl asctually say that in #rp0
<Agathorn>
but does anyone ever actually go there? :)
<Pap>
Agathorn, nothing has been posted in #RP0 in at least 3 weeks
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<Agathorn>
Apr 27th but that was kind of my point
<acc>
this channel is enough for RSS/RO/RP0
<Agathorn>
!seen pjf
<Qboid>
Agathorn: I haven't seen the user pjf yet.
<jclishman>
First successful splashdown!
<acc>
grats :)
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<rsparkyc>
Pap, just opened my laptop and saw your question from an hour ago,
<rsparkyc>
did you get it answered?
<rsparkyc>
(re: no spacex landing)
B787_300 is now known as B787_Bed
<jclishman>
he did
<Rokker>
jclishman: thats for 1.2 right?
<jclishman>
Rokker: yessir
<Rokker>
cool
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<Rokker>
jclishman: pass?
<jclishman>
Rokker: "tinyhands"
<jclishman>
no quotes
<Rokker>
jclishman: end urself
<jclishman>
hahahaha
<Rokker>
jclishman: are you gonna be one of the lucky ones to get the DLC free?
<KevinStarwaster>
man Real Fuels really needs some method of exempting resources on a part from management.... always forgetting to compensate for it deleting resources when writing up mod configs
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<stratochief|away>
o/
stratochief|away is now known as stratochief
<stratochief>
KevinStarwaster: but, adding something to detect existing RESOURCE bits, then create TANK inside of the RF tanks would be nice, but that would make it even less clear how our configs actually work to someone learning by doing
<stratochief>
JeeF: if it makes things easier, if you're creating a new part from scratch you can just make it all one config. the reason RO configs are so complicated is that we takes what we get ITO parts from other mods, stock
<Pap|Sleeping>
Hi stratochief
<stratochief>
JeeF: although for supersonic jet engines, I do recall reading that they eat fuel like a monster as they get fast. I am not a jet engine engineer, but I think first you'd want to seek an actual understanding of how fuel efficiency varies with air speed
RokkerSleep is now known as Rokker
<stratochief>
IIRC the trade off there is that fast jets move fast, so the drop in fuel efficiency is somewhat countered by the fact that they can get to places (ie target, refueling location) very quickly
<stratochief>
Rokker: do you happen to be aware of an equation for how the fuel efficiency of jet engines/fighter craft changes with speed?
<stratochief>
o/ Pap|Sleeping. you're a lier, just like Egg
<stratochief>
Agathorn: I'll read that design document for your game, thanks!
Pap|Sleeping is now known as Pap
<Pap>
and yes I am
<Pap>
I could have technically been sleeping at my desk at work, I am not positive I wasn't
<Theysen>
stratochief, ( Thrust x velocity of flight ) / (m dot air * (v exit ² / 2 - v in ² / 2)
<Theysen>
and for total efficiency you divide the first part by the thermal power
<stratochief>
Theysen: can you link sources for those equations, and !tell them at JeeF? that should help him a lot!
<stratochief>
Agathorn: what about missions that are sort of a 'one off', like Voyager, Viking, or the launch of a space telescope? or are those kind of covered, just with a much lower "cost of launches per year" value since they only take 1 or 2 moderate sized launchers?
<stratochief>
Agathorn: but one off missions like that would use common launch services (ie. existing pads, launchers) instead of spinning up their own independant ones
<stratochief>
Agathorn: I'd sort of argue that having the player open a program early would be more beneficial to coder and player, so that I open a Viking program, then research/manage new hardware from within that window/program. but I mean both work, I'm just curious to hear your pro/con about the two methods
<Theysen>
!JeeF not knowing exactly what you were asking about, but have a look at Thrust Specific Fuel Consumption (SFC) to get little insights and comparisons between the different systems. You have to keep in mind that supersonic jets mostly don't bypass, work in different thermal ranges, need to slow down the intake air to subsonic (most cases) and have a higher drag coefficient thus needing more thrust and then fuel to
<Theysen>
maintain the speed
<Theysen>
screw me
<stratochief>
!tell Theysen close, no cigar
<Qboid>
stratochief: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Theysen>
!tell JeeF !JeeF not knowing exactly what you were asking about, but have a look at Thrust Specific Fuel Consumption (SFC) to get little insights and comparisons between the different systems. You have to keep in mind that supersonic jets mostly don't bypass, work in different thermal ranges, need to slow down the intake air to subsonic (most cases) and have a higher drag coefficient thus needing more thrust and then
<Theysen>
fuel to
<Qboid>
Theysen: stratochief left a message for you in #RO [16.05.2017 13:19:05]: "close, no cigar"
<Qboid>
Theysen: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
stratochief, I am working on some Entry Costs and Costs and wanted your input since you have dabbled in all it at some point
<stratochief>
Pap: link? or, more specifically what parts?
<Pap>
Just more of a planning / how to cost question
<Theysen>
Pap regarding tech tree, keep in mind we can also change the recommended preset to something different if it plays out nicely with something different
<Pap>
Theysen, I am finding that Normal value science is very challenging and might be best to use custom settings with normal science values and hard cost values
<Pap>
stratochief, DMagic has a Soil Moisture Sensor part
<Pap>
I have found from some good sources that the part called Aquarius used on the SAC-D Mission costs $400m for R&D and Production costs
<stratochief>
nice!
<Pap>
Is the plan that it would be 380m for EntryCost and then 20m for Cost?
<Pap>
Do you base it on 20x cost?
<stratochief>
right. so, first, keep a link to any sources you find and include those in the PR like PF does
<stratochief>
second, find an inflation calculator and find out what that costs in 1965 dollars. $1000 1965 USD = 1 RP-0 credit
<Pap>
ok
<stratochief>
so, 1. convert to 1965 2. div by 1000 3. do what you just did, with the 20x EntryCost vs Cost
<Pap>
ok, that is the process I was using, just wanted to make sure I was doing it correctly before I went very far
<Pap>
thanks
<stratochief>
yeah, no problem. If you can find actuall costing information for something entirely new and unique like that, you're golden
<Pap>
yeah, been finding good data on that and stuff from some of the RN probes and things as well
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<stratochief>
that's awesome :)
<stratochief>
and rsparkyc is also awesome. o/ rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
not as awesome as stratochief
<rsparkyc>
\o
<rsparkyc>
every time i open my laptop, i feel like i'm jumping into the middle of a conversation
<rsparkyc>
i guess technically that's because I am
<stratochief>
Pap was talking about Rp-0 costing, and how he has found some price data for some probes and science parts that aren't yet configured for RP-0, and is working on placing and pricing them
<rsparkyc>
oh nice
<rsparkyc>
I'm about to mess with floatcurves
<stratochief>
gl, godspeed
<rsparkyc>
More specifically, make a TransformableFloatCurve, which will slide between 2 different curves
<rsparkyc>
i need that to adjust ISP for engine mixtures
<stratochief>
right, changing mixing ratio alters thrust as well as ISP. but in theory, you could make those 2 seperate functions that rely on independant coefficients and the mixing ratio itself. no?
<rsparkyc>
there will be a min and max ratio, so where you are on the line between min and max determines how much you need to adjust 1) your thrust, and 2) your ISP
<rsparkyc>
but it's a linear relationship
<rsparkyc>
so ((max - min) * percentage) + min
<rsparkyc>
if you adjust your ratio, the engine needs a new float curve to work off of
<rsparkyc>
so my class will have a min and max float curve, and generate one on the fly for you somewhere between the two when you change your mixture
stratochief is now known as stratochief|away
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<JeeF>
Sorry guys, ran out of internet. But luckily the messages were left on the screen so I could read them
<Qboid>
JeeF: Theysen left a message for you in #RO [16.05.2017 13:19:14]: "!JeeF not knowing exactly what you were asking about, but have a look at Thrust Specific Fuel Consumption (SFC) to get little insights and comparisons between the different systems. You have to keep in mind that supersonic jets mostly don't bypass, work in different thermal ranges, need to slow down the intake air to subsonic (most
<Qboid>
cases) and have a higher drag coefficient thus needing more thrust and then"
<JeeF>
Stratochief: yes I do need to do some research about it... but I do like to try to imagine how things work in my head. For a scramjet/ramjet, while the air intake increases substantially as you increase your speed, I'd like to imagine the fuel necessary to ignite that air doesn't necessarily increase with the same relation
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<stratochief|away>
"like to imagine" /facepalm *shakes head*
<stratochief|away>
nothing wrong with imagination, it just sucks to walk the road back, once you learn enough underlying truth to lead your imagination in the right direction
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<JeeF>
jeez this internet sucks
<JeeF>
Not home
<JeeF>
Anyways, I said something that apparently didn't go thru. When you install a turbocharger to your car, doubling the air intake in the cylinder, you don't really need twice as much fuel to ignite it
<Theysen>
it all depends on the thermodynamics behind it
<JeeF>
So I'd imagine as you increase speed, you increase intake which increases the pressure inside the engine, but you should need a similar amount of fuel to ignite that mix
<JeeF>
You don't want it too rich
<JeeF>
And I couldn't find any float curves in the CFG files to control how much fuel is injected into the mix, only a direct relation between air intake and fuel intake. So, as it currently stands, its my understanding that in KSP when the intake doubles, so does the fuel usage
<JeeF>
And I'd like to believe that's not accurate
<JeeF>
Now, is it even possible to have the fuel intake work as a float curve?
Thomas|AWAY is now known as Thomas
<stratochief|away>
JeeF: within stock? probably? with AJE? you'd have to check the source code
<JeeF>
Hence why I was careful with choice of words. This is what my reasoning believes "should" happen, but maybe it doesn't. But it's fun to imagine things and talk about them =)
<schnobs>
you meant that as in "plane of the ecliptic", didn't you?
<HypergolicSkunk>
no haha
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<JeeF>
nothing as maddening as crap internets
<JeeF>
Didn't have any luck running that engine sim tool
<JeeF>
anybody managed?
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<Pap>
HypergolicSkunk, planes are *fine* but when they explode 80% of the time due to the "runway" then there are some issues
<HypergolicSkunk>
totally agreed
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<HypergolicSkunk>
the really annoying thing now is that even the grass isn't safe
<Pap>
Hopefully that is fixed in 1.3, they have been working on it I guess
<Pap>
However, RO isn't even 1.2.2 **released** yet, so who knows if it ever makes it to 1.3
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<Agathorn>
morning
<Agathorn>
doesn't the increase in air pressure actually cause a problem, whereby you in fact need to expend resources to actually reduce that pressure? Though not sure if that rdction is done through some mechanical design that doesn't cost energy/fuel or not
<acc>
o/hullu
<Pap>
o/ acc
<Agathorn>
stratochief|away: you raise some interesting points about some things not fitting within a "program" but the idea here is to model what I'm pretty sure is exactly how it was handled in real life
<Agathorn>
I don't think NASA/NACA did one off missions - the government just doesn't work that way :) They would have all the red tape that goes along with it including studies and tests and all that - hence the "program" concept
<Theysen>
Agathorn, a ramjet basically works at constant pressure so once you reach your sweet point you're set. Before that it's suboptimal
<Agathorn>
is it optimized for the highest pressure?
<Agathorn>
what if he pressur exceeds what it is designed for? Does it do anythign to step it down or is it able to accomdate the higher pressure just at less efficiency?
<Theysen>
for other supersonic jets working without ramjets your intakes can work as shock cone and reduce the free stream velocity to subsonic velocities and the following diffusors as well
<Theysen>
sorry I missed the "sc"ramjet for every ramjet I wrote, SCramjets are completely supersonic flow throughout the complete engine
<Agathorn>
and at subsonic airflow they work just with horible efficiency?
<Theysen>
Yes, you either need some sort of booster rockets or include your own compressors
<Agathorn>
sometimes I really wonder how people invent this stuff in the first place
<Agathorn>
really makes you wonder if the crackpot theory about some global conscioness we all tap into might be real :)
<acc>
alcohol
<acc>
:D
<Theysen>
or what they in a scramjet: 4000°C inside the engine, let the fuel cool it, the fuel gets split into smaller molecules and then burn that
<Theysen>
*use
<xShadowx>
just an RNG ;p
<Theysen>
similar to modern rocket engines which are cooled by the fuel, it all has the same origins :)
<schnobs>
Agathorn: imagination, that glint in the eye when you realise that if you put this and that together in such a fashion, you can expect it to [...]
<xShadowx>
1,000 people can look at something, and randomly 1 will 'click' hey idea!
<Theysen>
yes
<Agathorn>
I can buy that for simpler things but high tech highly engineered things relying on amazing principles of physics... it just blows my mind
<xShadowx>
still just RNG
<schnobs>
piecing thigs together isn't that odd, but it strongly depends on the available pieces.
<schnobs>
Take a student trying to figure out how shape affects the performace of a pulsejet.
<xShadowx>
no 1 man knows every aspact of an engine either, just his little part
<schnobs>
Naturally he will find shapes that currently don't work but might be kinda cool if they did.
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<Theysen>
xShadowx, oh there are people who know everything
<Theysen>
few but there need to be people who have the big but detailed scope
<xShadowx>
Theysen: only morgan freeman ie god
<xShadowx>
XD
<Agathorn>
And George Burns
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<Theysen>
jeez, plane contracts in RP0 should pay ten times with that stupid left and right veer without reason :D :D
<Pap>
Plane contracts in RP-0 should be removed and blown up, just like the SPH
<Theysen>
I only just build my first GOOD working plane, those frickin runway seems
<Theysen>
lol quite the radical solution
<KevinStarwaster>
what was jeef talking about curves in resource intake?
<stratochief|away>
Agathorn: what about a long running program, like NRO/reconnaissance? Where they evolved as well as developed various launchers and payloads through a long program?
<stratochief|away>
or does Agena A not fit into your world" :P
<stratochief|away>
KevinStarwaster: talking about making his own ram/scramjet with AJE
<Agathorn>
I think he was also originally saying that an existing engine didn't perform the way he thought it should and was trying to understand the config properties to change it
<Agathorn>
stratochief|away: I don't see any inherant issue with longer running programs. You will be able to have multiple programs open at once
<Agathorn>
and I don't see any reason why hardware can't evolve during the lifetime of a program
<Agathorn>
I mean its all high level design at this point for sure, so there may be glaring holes I am not seeing
<Agathorn>
stratochief|away: I maybe wrong on this of course but I have a gut feeling that the concept of compartmentalized programs is going to be important for many aspects so for these oddballs I will just need to find a way to make them work
<stratochief|away>
Agathorn: yeah, I don't believe it can't be done, or that you wouldn't be able to do it. Personally, I find bringing up the range of conditions you will be coding for early on is useful
<Agathorn>
I'm not trying to discourage you, just adressing the comments :)
<stratochief|away>
So you don't pigeon-hole yourself into too simple/restricted of an architecture before you consider those odd programs that are somewhat one-off of very long running and synergistic
<stratochief|away>
either synergystic with programs in the same chain (like, NRO evolving the Agena, and pairing it with 3-4 different launchers and tons of payload variation) or between different programs that share hardware/launchers
<Agathorn>
would these be synergies with programs you might be typically inclined to have running in parallell or in sequence?
<stratochief|away>
both. and, funny enough sometimes parallel programs antagonize each other while sharing the same hardware. like, everybody rabidly waiting and demanding to get the first Atlases off the production line :P
<Agathorn>
so I would need to have soem system of sharing/competiting resources between open programs
<stratochief|away>
but no need to attempt to simulate those historical headaches and heartaches
<stratochief|away>
Agathorn: possibly. or, just using a universal tracking of a piece of hardware one program needs (ie. Atlas D) and recognizing that it has already been paid for and developed by a different program
<Agathorn>
Well on the one hand both programs using the same hardware would be budgeting to produce the amount they need, and presumably that budget includes the ability to manufacturer them fast enough, but on the other hand I can see it as a possibly useful mechanic whereby if multiple programs share hardware there is maybe a bit on a cost curve whereby the more of it you need the more the cost increases to keep up with demand
<stratochief|away>
I'm not away. I'm a damn lier
stratochief|away is now known as stratochief|remote
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<CobaltWolf>
o/
<Agathorn>
well if you go that route, assumign the hardware is being paied for by a SINGLE program then yes I could totally see supply issues
<stratochief|remote>
Agathorn: yeah. I was thinking that 'opening a hardware line' takes a fixed cost/timeline to spin it up, then 1 or more programs can pay to receive instances of the hardware as it is producted, and share a split of the operating/opening costs of the hardware line
<Agathorn>
I was making the assumption that the cost was being paid to some degree by all the programs using the hardware and thus enough would be produced
<Agathorn>
hmm
<stratochief|remote>
CobaltWolf: \o
<Agathorn>
somethign to ponder
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<BadRocketsCo>
o/
<stratochief|remote>
Agathorn: really, tons of ways to do this. sometime there should be a GoogleHangout to discuss/debate various ways to do it. IMO, it is worth considering the trade-offs of different conceptual structures from various angles. ie. that of a programmer, that of the player (complexity, micro/macro) and from a realism POV
<stratochief|remote>
easiest way to do it is to reference templates like "Do X in a BARIS way, Y in a KSP-BARIS hybrid, and handle Z like HOI3/4"
<stratochief|remote>
\o BadRocketsCo
<Agathorn>
things can change as well.. My primary goal is to get a initial slice built that maybe some of you can play with and then see how things feel and make changes
<stratochief|remote>
Agathorn: even including a "Program X paid to start Rocket Line A, so it gets #1st propority" might work, or be too complicated or inflexible. hard to say
<stratochief|remote>
so that random numbers won't trigger Qboid like that
<CobaltWolf>
ye
<Agathorn>
right now I am working towards everything that would go into doing a sputnick style program
<Thomas>
Well, someone set RO as the default repository for the channel..
<Agathorn>
a complete vertical slice to that mission
<Agathorn>
I think it would be better if the bot just didn't trigger on closed issues?
<stratochief|remote>
Agathorn: yeah, fair enough. depends on how you want to handle your development cycles. getting to something playable even as a thin slice is a good idear
<Agathorn>
or maybe require a flag to trigger on closed issue
<stratochief|remote>
shit. I just pounded my first caffeinated coffee in a few weeks unconsiously. #thatswhenthedrugskickedin
<Agathorn>
stratochief|remote: yeah I like to work like that
<Agathorn>
iteratively
<Agathorn>
too many people develop an entire application in one go then find ou what they have isn't right
<Thomas>
Hmm, and I have no way to remove a default repository
<Thomas>
Lets try to break it on purpose then :P
<Thomas>
!setchannelrepo blubb
<Qboid>
Thomas: Set default repository for #RO to blubb
<stratochief|remote>
at least, make a working prototype, then beat and critisize it to hell and sketch out the full enchelada, then roll back the hacked together bit (keep the graphics engine, GUI etc,) and build a proper framework capable of supporting the whole game
<Agathorn>
but why make it retrive issues that are closed?
<stratochief|remote>
Thomas: lol. thankee :)
<Thomas>
Agathorn: Because you might want to reference a closed issue
<CobaltWolf>
wait what are you talking about @stratochief|remote
<Agathorn>
sure but 99% of the time you don't, thus why I said make it just require a flag for closed issues
<Agathorn>
then you can still have the RO default without it triggering on issues that are decades old :)
<Agathorn>
just a thought anyway
<stratochief|remote>
CobaltWolf: Agathorn is building a BARIS-KSP like game solo.
<Agathorn>
and i'm totally going to go make a repo called blubb now
<CobaltWolf>
yikes
<CobaltWolf>
well all my assets are CC ;)
<stratochief|remote>
CobaltWolf: he already has maps, waves. Agathorn is a baller
<BadRocketsCo>
How is RO doing these days?
<Theysen>
greeeeeeat
<stratochief|remote>
BadRocketsCo: waiting on ferram4 to show up? perhaps that is why he is hiding :P
<BadRocketsCo>
Heh
<BadRocketsCo>
Can't wait until RO is finally released
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: yeah working on my own game these days :)
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: I'm starting to think I should put BDB on back burner. I usually work on it to relieve stress but I gotta put my free time into recutting my reel and stuff
<Agathorn>
I *stopped* working on TestFlight to releive stress :)
<riocrokite>
hey guys, isru related question, how should I model he3 resource spread on the mun?
<riocrokite>
less around equator and more around poles or something different?
<Theysen>
*Mun* ??? :P Poles
<riocrokite>
it will be connected to tio2 concentration, but need 2nd variable
<stratochief|remote>
riocrokite: is there a map guessing how it is concentrated on the real Moon? I'd use that as an artistic base
<riocrokite>
ok, so relative to tio2 concentration + latitude multiplier
<riocrokite>
stratochief|remote: this is a bit complicated in RL
<riocrokite>
so will go with simplified metric
<riocrokite>
atmosphere = false, x latitude multiplier x metal content multiplier
<acc>
ahm, how do I calculate waste tanks for life support?
<acc>
somehow thepTank lifesupport tank does only generate consumable resources, no waste containers
<riocrokite>
the good news is that there will be only one resource and depending on the vessel location you'll get different stuff fomr it stratochief|remote
* acc
is reorganizing the soyuz orbiter to squeeze a litle bit more dV out of it
<riocrokite>
somewhat hacking irregular content of regolith farmed from diffferent bodies or/and different places
<Agathorn>
so NASA is proposing to use the Tumbler on Mars?
<stratochief|remote>
Agathorn: Tumbler? like, social media, or Batman's car?
<stratochief|remote>
riocrokite: really, you're free to distribute it however you like. artistic freedom and all that. my first instinct would be to put it at crator edges, or exclude the big crater, or something. it is Mun after-all
<CobaltWolf>
@Agathorn the batmobile looking rover? no that's not a serious design. They've said it's just to drum up interest
<stratochief|remote>
I'd rather have methalox powered jetpack or exoskeleton, rather than a rover. Kyle Laskowski of Mars anyone? (John Carter)
<riocrokite>
stratochief|remote: thought about adding distance from sun multiplier so moho gets a big boost at the cost of dV needed to get there
<riocrokite>
or yah slope multiplier or something stratochief|remote
<riocrokite>
the only thing against slope is that it's relatively difficult to drive rover on a slope to harvest or reprocess stuff
<Pap>
Can we eject waste / wastewater in RO?
<stratochief|remote>
riocrokite: I know, risk vs reward :)
<stratochief|remote>
riocrokite: also, Moho gettings a boost is a great and realistic idea. moar solar wind flux actually equals more He3, IIRC
<stratochief|remote>
Pap: with the right mod, yep. "Constellation U-rion"
<Pap>
Nice Apollo 13 quote
<Pap>
stratochief|remote, what is that right mod"?
<stratochief|remote>
His crazy american accent means I didn't get that joke until a later re-watch
<Rokker>
jclishman: you ready to install principia?
<stratochief|remote>
Pap: honestly don't know. I haven't done it, but I've seen it done. could be ShipManifest, but good chance not. I believe I've seen NK do it in his series
<stratochief|remote>
something that lets you do more complex fuel/resource transfers w/ a gui also lets you dump resources, IIRC
<riocrokite>
Pap: I think that it's a stock mechanics
<Rokker>
does mechjeb still read the basic orbital elements when principia is installed or no?
<riocrokite>
Pap: look up large ore tank config
<riocrokite>
ModuleFuelJettison
<stratochief|remote>
acc: I'd use a spreadsheet for TACLS that I found to plan that. Do I know where that spreadsheet can be found? Absolutely fucking not. :P
<riocrokite>
probably jettison all resources in a part
<Theysen>
stratochief|remote, nice wolf of wallstreet reference there :-P
* Theysen
just returns the favor
<Rokker>
anyone?
<Rokker>
egg|zzz|egg:
<stratochief|remote>
I usually "back of a literal envelope" or spreadsheet plan stuff, because I like manual planning and have a Trello just for planning my Mars mission
<Pap>
thanks stratochief|remote and riocrokite
<Rokker>
Pap: what is your tech tree like
<stratochief|remote>
Rokker: it doesn't shit-talk me in my MechJeb window, if that helps. it still gives me reasonable orbit info (AP, PE, inclination)
<acc>
stratochief|remote: thanks, that was not helpful at all :D
<Rokker>
stratochief|remote: yeah, thats what im asking
<Rokker>
as long as it gives me the basic shit for ascent to orbit and stuff
<stratochief|remote>
Thomas: thankee. I had just re-watched the movie a week or so before you made that reference and I read it in backchat :)
<Rokker>
that should be good
<acc>
I'm doin my own spreadsheet atm. but when I'm done I want some sort of math degree :>
<Theysen>
stratochief|remote,'s autofill game is on point :)
<stratochief|remote>
I can't even plan a Kerbin to Eve or Duna transfer with just the Principia planner, which is why I stopped playing my stock-Pap tree&contracts-Principia career a week or two ago
<Pap>
However, the Fuel Tanks line no longer exists
<Rokker>
Pap: oooooo
<stratochief|remote>
Pap: pfft. ISRU should start in Tier 5, IMO. that is when I'm doing a basic solid oxide experiment (CO2-> CO & O2)
<Rokker>
Pap: and what mods are supported
<Pap>
that I can easily change stratochief|remote and I thought it was going to start earlier as well
<stratochief|remote>
obviously, modern efficiency ISS level water recyclers would come later, but even those might be possible a step or so after Skylab. the russian's recycling/LS hardware was on-point in the early 80s I think
<Rokker>
stratochief|remote: hey, what happened to the Non-RP0 and Non-RO tabs
<Rokker>
shit is so messy with the non RO/RP-0 supported shit in my engines tabs
<stratochief|remote>
Rokker: do those relate to a mod, like FilterExtensions?
<Pap>
There are 2713 parts placed in the correct nodes, but the costs are only updated if they existed in the regular RP-0 tree, that is the long process I am working on now
<Theysen>
Forfotten Real Engines and Niche Parts plx
<Pap>
About 1900 parts more than the current tryy
<Pap>
Theysen, are there RO configs for those?
<Pap>
*tree
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief|remote: you rang?
<Theysen>
yes
* stratochief|remote
goes to kick all the jokers, realizes a lack of sense of humour is my own fault. kicks self.
<stratochief|remote>
egg|zzz|egg: I called Pap a lier for talking while zzz, like you sometimes. Rokker also asked a question you may be able to answer.
stratochief|remote is now known as stratochief|away
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief|away: nah but you answered it
<Pap>
Theysen, where are they? I cannot find them in the RO_SuggestedMods folder
<Rokker>
stratochief|away: nah, you answered it well enough for me
<Rokker>
egg|zzz|egg: oh, kOS can read that stuff too right?
<Theysen>
Pap, they deliver themselves with the mod
<Rokker>
the basic orbital elements
<Pap>
Ahhhhhhh, Theysen
<Rokker>
even with principia installed
<Pap>
what other mods do that, Theysen ? I want to make a more exhaustive list
<Theysen>
from the ones I love to use those are the only two
<Theysen>
rest is in REPO iirc
<Pap>
k, well if you come across any others, Ill add em
<Pap>
You'll have it in a few hours Theysen
<Theysen>
impressive
<Rokker>
jclishman: oi, install filter extensions
<Theysen>
it's mostly late engine stuff, esp niche parts
<Agathorn>
so I guess don't hold your breath for KRASH to support TestFlight
<Rokker>
Agathorn: how doesnt it support it?
<Agathorn>
well I meant as far as integration like KCT had
<Agathorn>
KCT sims you could turn off TF failures during sims
<Rokker>
huh... never had chrome actually crash on me...
<Rokker>
Agathorn: that functionality never seemed to work for me
* Theysen
guilty of never even simulating
<Rokker>
Agathorn: did you change the settings for KRASH or leave them as is
<Agathorn>
I am not even running KSP
<CobaltWolf>
@Pap you're missing a mod
<Pap>
Not configured enough yet @CobaltWolf it'll be in for sure, it is one of the easiest ones because it is all historic
<CobaltWolf>
hurray
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<acc>
what is ration in the converter config? per second?
<acc>
s/ration/ratio/
<Qboid>
acc meant to say: what is ratio in the converter config? per second?
<Theysen>
aiming to replace all other RP-0 contracts
<Theysen>
It's very good
<Theysen>
just dl his Github fork for RP-0 and drop the contracts folder in your existing install, delete the old contracts folder
<acc>
Pap: thanks anyways, I'll have a look
<Pap>
Rokker, the contract that is included in the PR is designed specifically for RO / RP-0
<Pap>
The Historical Progression contracts will work great with RSS/RO, but will pay out WAY too much money for each contract (though that can be easily changed since it uses global variables that only need to be modified in one area)
<Rokker>
the PR?
<Pap>
Rokker, if you want to use my contracts and tech tree, use this RP-0 installation...
<Pap>
If you use my tech tree, delete Community Tech Tree as well
<Agathorn>
!acr -add:PR Pull Request
<Qboid>
Agathorn: I already know an explanation for PR! (Update it with !acr -update:PR Pull Request)
<Agathorn>
PR?
<Qboid>
Agathorn: [PR] => Pull Request
<Agathorn>
be that way
<Pap>
Way to be a jer Qboid
<Pap>
*jerk
<Rokker>
Pap: do i just have to use that PR or do i have to download the historical progression and shit as well
<Pap>
rokk
<Rokker>
like the tech tree
<Rokker>
?
<Pap>
Rokker, it all depends, let me start from the beginning so I can make sure I tell you the right thing...
<Pap>
Are you using RO/RP-0?
<Rokker>
yes
<Pap>
Do you want to use my RP-0 Contracts, or the contracts for the Historical Progression (they are 2 different things)?
<Rokker>
Pap: whats in the RP-0 contracts
<Pap>
They are very similar to the older RP-0 contracts, but it progresses you from first flight, sounding rockets, satellite contracts, unmanned flybys, human exploration
<Qboid>
[#642] title: Contract System Overhaul | I was talking with Stratochief on the RO IRC channel and we got to discussing contracts for RP-0. Since I exclusively play career mode and I have created hundreds of contracts in the past, I agreed to look at overhauling the contract system used by RP-0. I have read through the contract threads of #620, #614, #566, #564, #562, #463, #177 to get ideas of
<Qboid>
what has been discussed before. I have essentially created this blueprint of ideas already with my [Career Evolution Contract Pack](http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/157417-wip-122-career-evolution-contract-pack-beta-release-v03-updated-3-27-2017/&page=4#comment-3029187) but with RSS-RO, I have the ability to create much more detailed contracts that are not trying yo appeal to
<Rokker>
Pap: um, are the heatshields not properly configured?
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<Rokker>
Pap: filter extensions seems a bit unsure what to do with some of the tanks and the DRE heatshields (i think) seem to be available but in the non-RP0 tab
<Theysen>
you have a tree.cfg?
<Rokker>
i dunno
<Rokker>
where would i look
<Theysen>
inside of the RP-0 folder
<Theysen>
you need to create a tree.cfg if there is none. Since it's Pap's tree I'd believe there is on
<Rokker>
Theysen: RP-0TechTree.cfg?
<Theysen>
if that's in Pap's repo then youre good
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<Rokker>
holy fuck RVE is beautiful
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<acc>
yep :)
<acc>
and that cfg you're looking for is calle Tree.cfg
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<acc>
if it's not there you need to use perl create it from the repo
<acc>
+to
<Theysen>
he's using Pap's repo and I think he uploaded a completed tree already in there acc
<acc>
ah, alright
<stratochief|away>
can't believe I hadn't heard of the French design for balloon/gonollas to Mars. they could float in the atmosphere for dozens of days, taking all kinds of data.
<Theysen>
why the f does stuff have to bounce upon reloading
<stratochief|away>
that seems like it would be a great experiment to better understand the highly variable upper atmosphere density, to improve the success and precision of future heavier payloads/entry vehicles
<Agathorn>
because KSP plays it fast and loose with physics and coordinates
<stratochief|away>
Theysen: if you're really curious, you could try without Persistent Rotation?
stratochief|away is now known as stratochief|remote
<Theysen>
stratochief|away, I'm talking launch site
<Theysen>
you come out of warp or loading and the rcket is tilted 20 degrees
<stratochief|remote>
in my experience, the loadng of a craft after a revert to launchpad has always been a bit crazy with PersistentRotation
<Theysen>
ah I thought it was all related to the float error stuff on upscales
<Agathorn>
Theysen: its becaue when you are in timearp KSP is using a different physics engine, one that is predictable. Then when you come out, it swaps back into the standard Physix engine
<stratochief|remote>
I think the modmaker attempted to fix it, but I still have trouble with it. IIRC, stock also has a way to adjust how physics loads in, at the main main menu?
<Agathorn>
basically tywo diffetent physics systems, one determinant and one not
<Theysen>
ease in yes
<stratochief|remote>
Theysen: even if that is your operating theory, there is no better way to bolster it than by trying to disconfirm it :)
<Agathorn>
disconfirm?
<stratochief|remote>
jclishman: people I've seen who use Mechjeb to launch their craft to orbit tend to set the AP altitude to like 9000km, so that mechjeb won't cut out and try to coast/warp to AP
<Agathorn>
wow that is a real word
<Agathorn>
guess I can't mock you for it
<stratochief|remote>
A science word :)
<Agathorn>
it sounds like a stupid word
<Agathorn>
disprove sounds better
<stratochief|remote>
Agathorn: can't prove a negative?
<Pap>
Sorry guys, a lot of Tree questions while I was in an impromptu meeting
<stratochief|remote>
err, not sure why disconfirm is the preferred word, but I'm used to it
<Pap>
Rokker, acc Theysen get it all figured out?
<Theysen>
Pap, no idea Rokker just said RVE is beautiful after explaining it
<Theysen>
so idk and idc :^)
<Pap>
lol
<Theysen>
There is no community ersion for adjustable landing gear isn't there? I miss this genius tool :(
<Rokker>
Pap: its not like game breaking, but it seems your PR isnt properly configured for filter extensions and the DRE heatshields dont seem to be supported?
<acc>
Theysen: sadly no. I miss it too
<Theysen>
understandably of course, with all the new wheel stuff. But the things like angled wheels for narrow fighter jets and auto align to 0° for the floor were so crucial and life saving
<Theysen>
it's a good RO install when the MM patching starts a 1/4 of the loading bar instead of the usual middle :D :D
<KevinStarwaster>
as long as we're talking about words, is there a word for when your feral cat decides to perform accupuncture on you?
<Theysen>
x_X
<Theysen>
accupurrture?
<Pap>
KevinStarwaster, I think that is acatupuncture?
<KevinStarwaster>
huh
<KevinStarwaster>
I guess that will do
<Agathorn>
*groan*
<KevinStarwaster>
oh, stratochief|remote I find reloading of craft after a revert to the launch pad to be a bit crazy even WITHOUT persistent rotation
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<KevinStarwaster>
she's actually not very feral anymore.... but she's a bit rough around the edges
<KevinStarwaster>
she also likes attacking me under the covers. Something about hands and fingers moving under the sheets brings out the predator in her
<CobaltWolf>
see, it took me a second after the feral comment, then I thought I understood, now I'm not sure
<acc>
sounds like a healthy cat to me
<KevinStarwaster>
unfortunately
<Pap>
Everytime I get to come up with a really bad pun, I say to myself in Austin Powers voice, "Ah Thank You"
<acc>
heh
<KevinStarwaster>
I've noticed something in her that I havent seen in cats my entire life. probably they all do it but I only just noticed it in her
<KevinStarwaster>
her pupils DILATE wide open when she's getting ready to attack
<KevinStarwaster>
even with the sun on her face
<KevinStarwaster>
it's actually a little scary because I know she's about to pounce on me
<Theysen>
oh man, is that the cat from the deadly reentry menu?
<Theysen>
She looks like a predator to me
<acc>
meow
<KevinStarwaster>
no that's Melificent. She passed away a few months before I put out that release
<acc>
mine too, a few months ago. was also a black-white one
<KevinStarwaster>
Melificent was actually a LOT gentler than Martha (the one who attacks me)
<KevinStarwaster>
Martha Stewart btw. She had a single kitten who we named... Patrick
<acc>
martha is already a attacky name heh
<KevinStarwaster>
but... gittit? Patrick?
<KevinStarwaster>
they have a friend named... Jon
<stratochief|remote>
KevinStarwaster: interesting (pupil dialation). that correlates to substantial mental effort: http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/33563/title/The-Meaning-of-Pupil-Dilation/
<acc>
need food, brain can't math anymore :o
<KevinStarwaster>
great so that means she's just THAT dedicated to assaulting me?
<stratochief|remote>
It was/is a substantial clinically observable variable in a book I read recently (Thinking Fast and Slow, Daniel Daniel Kahneman)
<KevinStarwaster>
acc I can't even brain right now
<acc>
heh
<Pap>
Theysen, would most of those Niche Parts fit better in the Rocketry area or the Control area?
<stratochief|remote>
KevinStarwaster: drink some sugar water. apparently the derivative of your blood sugar is substantially corellated to willpower :P
<Theysen>
all those tiny thrusters into Control id say
<Pap>
ok good, that is what I thought
<stratochief|remote>
pupil dialation is also an indicator for human effort. I'm ore than a bit frightened about what future augmented reality glasses will tell us about each other by measuring pupilary dynamics during human-human interactions
<KevinStarwaster>
I don't think I have the willpower to get up and get any sugar water
Thomas is now known as Thomas|AWAY
<stratochief|remote>
KevinStarwaster: lol. then you're doomed. or you need a friend/familymember/coworker to spray some into your face/mouth
<rsparkyc>
anyone work with loading FloatCurves from configNodes?
<KevinStarwaster>
you know, I did pretty good with XCOM Enemy Unknown but I suck so badly at XCOM 2.... I feel like such a noob
<KevinStarwaster>
yeah why
<rsparkyc>
i'm getting this
<rsparkyc>
Module EMRController threw during OnLoad: System.Runtime.Serialization.SerializationException: Type UnityEngine.AnimationCurve is not marked as Serializable.
<rsparkyc>
i followed the example given in procedural part's SRBs
<KevinStarwaster>
you tagged it with KSPField attribute?
<KevinStarwaster>
yeah was probably going to ask for that but... in PPSRB the class itself is marked serializable. Also, they're just relying on floatcurve's own loading methods
<rsparkyc>
as am I
<KevinStarwaster>
that's why floatcurve exists. it's just a wrapper for animation curves
<rsparkyc>
and my MixtureConfigNode class is marked as [Serializabe] too, just like in PP
<KevinStarwaster>
and that didnt work either?
<rsparkyc>
no, that's what i did at first
<stratochief|remote>
Agathorn: jusst a thought, but a program should only be allowed to stay open for a maximum of 8 years (presidency length), unless it is purely military/recon like NRO
<KevinStarwaster>
MixtureConfigNode isn't marked public. Dunno if that matters. No using for UnityEngine on MixtureConfigNode either....
<KevinStarwaster>
other than that I'm not seeing anything really different in that class from what ProceduralSRB is doing
<rsparkyc>
ahh, that's a good place to start
<rsparkyc>
didn't look at that
<rsparkyc>
let me try changing it
<KevinStarwaster>
the missing using statement is probably more likely to be relevant
<rsparkyc>
I'll try both :)
<KevinStarwaster>
and you have a reference to the KSP assembly right?
<rsparkyc>
no dice
<rsparkyc>
and yeah, stuff would have broken a long time ago if i didn't
<Pap>
Theysen, did you see my comment before about what I receommended for play settings instead of hard?
<Theysen>
negative Pap, IRC or GH?
<Pap>
It was on here, not directed towards you though
<Pap>
From my playthrough, I think that playing with hard settings, but changing the Science gain to Normal settings is perfect
<Theysen>
nice perfect
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<Theysen>
why are R7 and Soyuz rockets so beautiful
<stratochief|remote>
and once Dmagic parts are placed and priced, perhaps Hard might be appropriate again for science? same for all 3/4 ScanSat parts
<CobaltWolf>
once I finish retexturing them....
<stratochief|remote>
Theysen: any X.5 stage rocket is beautiful, IMO. for example the Atlas
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<stratochief|remote>
that is also how I gradually grew to appreciate the Delta rocket series
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<Theysen>
@stratochief|remote, that wouldn't fix the early high prices as DMgaic introduces at a later point
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<Pap>
stratochief|remote, I have placed all of the DMagic science parts in the appropriate nodes
<stratochief|remote>
when historical period do the DMagic parts generally fall in? ~1964 is where I would estimate the ScanSat could start mapping the Moon, and ~1962 it could be mapping Earth?
<Pap>
It is going to take some re-balancing for the first 2 tiers of Science
<stratochief|remote>
PFAVG: I don't imagine PF stands for PhineasFreak?
<Pap>
Currently, they are probably a little too high
<stratochief|remote>
yeah. Rp-0's costs might currently estimate that you definitely do the airplane contracts?
<stratochief|remote>
or, just a minor local error in balancing
<Pap>
There are 12 DMagic Science parts that are RO configured adn I have placed them in my tree
<Theysen>
nope, science gained from rockets perfectly unlocks currently on hard
<Theysen>
without biome grinding
<Pap>
Here is what I am actually thinking...
<Pap>
The current Tier 1 is an unnecessary step right now...it doesn't add any interesting parts and is just a hurdle to jump over to get to the good shit in Tier 2
<Pap>
I think Tier 1 is going to go away and those parts will move to START or Tier 2 depending on what parts they are
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<CobaltWolf>
or you could add more parts to Tier 1
<CobaltWolf>
;)
<Pap>
No, cause Tier 1 represents an era of Sounding rockets only, nothing interesting developed really until Tier 2
<Pap>
And with that, I am off to see Neil DeGrasse Tyson at the Chicago Theater, I'll talk to you all later
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<stratochief|remote>
nice. I saw NDT at (what was) my local university 2-4 years ago. he was an enjoyable public speaker
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<PFAVG>
I am getting a lot of stuttering in my RO game. Is that fairly normal?
<PFAVG>
RO is really amazing. Its like whole other game. Loving it!
<PFAVG>
Pretty Fantastic
<PFAVG>
:) Pius Fidelus
<Rokker>
how do i turn off the temperature overlay again
<acc>
and hydraulics for the heat shield, so you can low ride that reentry
<Pap>
For sure, the hydraulics
<Theysen>
I actually thought RO is now capable of loading from cache every time if you don't change something. Boy was I wrong
<Theysen>
why the hell did it work fine until yesterday
<acc>
must be abug
<acc>
sometimes it loads from cache, sometimes not
<Theysen>
which mod doesn' use plugindata I added for its config, iirc that was one factor to cause reload everytime
<Theysen>
alright I closed it correctly without ALT-F4ing, let'see
<Theysen>
works fine now. go figure
<Pap>
Theysen are there any MM errors that pop up in loading? That stops the cache from being made
<Pap>
Lol
<Theysen>
I stand by my one word describing the whole world of KSP and RO in particular.. *magic*
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<acc>
:D
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<Theysen>
now back to direct ascents to the mun from baikonur, i hate it
<Theysen>
* direct polar ascents
<soundnfury>
also * moon?
<Theysen>
oh my god. rip me
<Theysen>
bringing shame upon myself :^)
<soundnfury>
personally I quite enjoyed lobbing lunar probes via polar orbit from Keflavik
<soundnfury>
but I did park/coast in low polar orbit, direct ascent sounds tricky
<Pap>
Theysen, have you figured out the magic of direct polar ascents from Baikonur?
<Pap>
You launch when the moon as at its lowest point in relative inclination?
<Theysen>
soundnfury, I am at that point in early career where I only have the upper stage on top of the R7 and I need to stage to get into orbit, I managed it before but it's trial and error Pap
<Pap>
Gotcha
<Theysen>
It's matter of burning radially in once you're apoapsis is out on Lunar altitude or you end up 50° above the target
<Theysen>
when you're too low though you burst into the atmosphere if you go radial in too early
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<Theysen>
and all that at the finishing 5G of acceleration and the probe is unpowered at that point
<Theysen>
no corrections
<soundnfury>
Theysen: I take it you can't build a tiny upper stage then? I haven't ever really used Soviet engines,
<soundnfury>
my early lunar kick stages tend to be dinky XASR-1 things
<soundnfury>
also it sounds like your ascent profile is weird. I'm confused as to why you're not burning a radial _out_ component
<soundnfury>
are you going south and doing >½ an orbit to get to the moon?
<Theysen>
no you launch via the north pole
<Theysen>
did i confuse again, might be possible
<soundnfury>
right so you're effectively 'already past' your perigee
<Theysen>
yes, so it's out
<soundnfury>
what you really need is something (like konrad) that'll compute your burn in real-time
<Theysen>
problem is: It starts with being too stupid for staging :D :D
<Theysen>
hint: the ball in the front was supposed to go the moon ..
<soundnfury>
so that instead of going prograde 'til you've got the right apogee altitude and then radial to shift your argument of perigee (or something), you do it all in one burn
<soundnfury>
Theysen: well done
* soundnfury
claps
<Theysen>
soundnfury, I tried many different ascent profiles but if I start correcting directly I climb way too high and have big gravity losses
<Theysen>
not my brightest moment.. more shocking was the time I needed to realize what was happening .. :D
<soundnfury>
they're not gravity losses if that's the way you want to go
<soundnfury>
something something cosine losses
<soundnfury>
effectively, gravity losses are time spent coasting, integrated against 'effective g' (which decreases as you approach orbital velocity)
<soundnfury>
and egg will doubtless tell me that's wrong
<Theysen>
sorry my orbital mechanics game is off for today :(
<soundnfury>
intuiting gravity losses is hard, and I'm probably not getting it right either
<soundnfury>
but I'm pretty sure tools like MJ that claim to tell you your gravy losses are lying
<Theysen>
I just call it grav losses as MechJeb puts it out under that name
<Theysen>
maintaining 40° of pitch worked surprisingly well this time
<Theysen>
and i'm out of the SOI as i typed this.. time for bed i believe
<Theysen>
will look into Konrad
<Theysen>
cheers all O/
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<Agathorn>
gravy loss is a crime against thanksgiving
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: it's okay as long as you do a good gravy turn
<soundnfury>
after all, one gravy turn deserves another.
<Agathorn>
I found an interesting document , or well series of documents, designed to help estimate with reasonable accuracy the ∆v penalties of ascent for a rocket... going to use it for my game if I ever manage to understand all the math :D
<soundnfury>
I wonder if POST is publicly available
<soundnfury>
"virtually all launch vehicle propulsion systems... an impulsive-burn approximation can be used" wat
<soundnfury>
every time I read about the maths running Silverbird I trust it less
<Agathorn>
you dont' typically see ion drives being used for launch
<Agathorn>
the point of this math though is just to get somethign reasonably accurate to determine if a LV configuration has any chance of working or not
<Agathorn>
it isn't for super accuracy
<Agathorn>
hence why I looked into it for my game....good enough maths
<soundnfury>
"let's just quadratically curve-fit to existing systems. That won't fail when confronted with anything novel!" -_-
<Agathorn>
its also a derivation of much older work, essentially modified to work with modern vehicles
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: well like I said "good enough maths" I figure its better than just hard coding a ∆v requiremnt in my game..at least this way the design of an LV will have some effect
<Pap>
We are eating first, one hour till the show stratochief
<Pap>
I live about an hour away from the city with traffic, only 20 miles, but Yay traffic
<stratochief|remote>
I saw a video about an interesting technique that has a sand-like material absorb CO2, then it is enclosed, heated, and exposed to vacuum. the heating purged the CO2 from the material, vacuum vents the Co2. not sure if it was used on skylab, or just tested for it
<acc>
yeah, right
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<stratochief|remote>
Pap: yeah. big city traffic sucks. my girlfriend insisted that we drive through downtown chicago when we moved from winnipeg to mississauga(toronto), so I insisted that she drive that leg :P
<Pap>
Lol, yeah I didn't have to drive so I got to continue chatting
<stratochief|remote>
acc: how long of a mission is that Soyuz rated for, with 3 folks in it?
<jclishman>
okay, lets see if i cant put a man into orbit
<stratochief|remote>
jclishman: did you see my comment in the backchat about using Mechjeb to auto-ascent you?
<acc>
stratochief|remote: setup for 15 days
<jclishman>
stratochief|remote: I did, thanks
<Sigma88>
found the issue
<stratochief|remote>
if you watch NathanKell|AWAY 's series on youtube, you'll see how he succeeds that way. just use SmartASS, and at times for simple launches I've used kOS and the other KRPC
<jclishman>
I think I'll stick with doing the launches manually for now
<soundnfury>
jclishman: good choice
<jclishman>
Practice makes perfect and everytihng
<acc>
ascent guidiance works also nicely for half-automated launches
<HypergolicSkunk>
auto-ascent ftw
<soundnfury>
I have lots of things show me numbers, but in the end it's my hand on the stick
<soundnfury>
and that's how it should be
<acc>
I'm also doin auto ;D
<acc>
but to be fair, it just flys the way I tell it to, since the launch profile is setup by me. it's just way more precise than manual steering
<jclishman>
also my room is noticeably hotter when I'm playing
<jclishman>
it's weird
<stratochief|remote>
someone cool I saw on youtube used mechjeb's ascent guidance to give him a target to aim for, then he did manual control to aim at that
<acc>
yep, also a way :)
<stratochief|remote>
jclishman: you're just flushed with excitement, cause you're controling a fucking rocket
<soundnfury>
stratochief|remote: are you sure he's not controlling a regular rocket?
<jclishman>
stratochief|remote: hehe
<stratochief|remote>
soundnfury: fucking rocket is code for real-ish rocket, as opposed to joke rockets in stock (shots fired)
<stratochief|remote>
a added a full head of garlic to my pasta sauce, and I still don't think it is garlic-y enough. I have a garlic problem
<acc>
at the end it doesn't matter if auto or manual. you have to know what's a good launch profile for which rocket
<soundnfury>
stratochief|remote: sure you do. That problem is that you haven't added enough garlic.
<stratochief|remote>
a full head of raw garlic. there was already a head of slow roasted garlic n there
<stratochief|remote>
if I was an old grandma, that would be my deathbed secret. both slow cooked and raw garlic in my sauce
<HypergolicSkunk>
god I love eating garlic
<stratochief|remote>
and I've never been accused of having bad breath, because my girlfriend can't smell anything #winning
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<jclishman>
aight, i'm about 1km/s dV short
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<stratochief|remote>
now that PFAUG is gone, I find that if I bump down how many smokescreen particles are actually created by the plumes (adjusting the global multiplier) I get fewer/less bothersome pauses
<stratochief|remote>
oh, hey PFAVG :P
<jclishman>
is 4 AJ-10s on an upper stage too many
<HypergolicSkunk>
jclishman: for Testflight redundancy?
<stratochief|remote>
jclishman: depends what you're trying to do. have you simply not invented an Agena?
<jclishman>
stratochief|remote: oh shit i have that
<jclishman>
brb
<stratochief|remote>
Agena has like... double the thrust of an AJ-10? just not restartable until later, IIRC
<jclishman>
ah shit, mine's only got 4 minutes rated burn time