<Qboid>
NathanKell: Agathorn left a message for you in #RO [29.05.2017 20:54:48]: "any thoughts on calculating out a tank's dry (structural) mass based on dimensions, and style. And possibly tech level of material science?"
<Pap>
Hi NathanKell, is the DVR all setup and ready to go?
<Pap>
My wife has told me the Bachelorette is on tonight, so apparently, that is important
<NathanKell>
Pap: It's getting there. My two favorite things, linux and coax cables
<NathanKell>
already destroyed one nail on 'em
<Pap>
Coax are easier to deal with than having to put those f-ing 8 different colored wires in a CAT-5 cable!
<NathanKell>
Hah, true!
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: To explain my long google link (which is actually a pdf on Earthlink, but google search to find it) - that's a table of stage structural coefficients. You can make some assumptions about engine and interstage and guidance mass, and then arrive at a decent idea of tank fraction
<NathanKell>
Basically, Titan I and II were freaking impressive beasts.
<NathanKell>
And R-7 was STRONK
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: \o/
<soundnfury>
RIS is ready for beta test. Needless to say, in order to balance test my multiplayer mod I need some vict^H^H^H^Hplayers.
<Pap>
soundnfury: would you need players that could play at the same time?
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<soundnfury>
You get paid for "doing something first" once everyone _else_ has checked in with a game date _after_ the date at which you completed the contract
<soundnfury>
Which means everyone can run at their own speed, but if you get too far ahead you have to wait for other people to catch up before you can get your sweet sweet funds
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<Agathorn>
NathanKell: interesting link thanks!
<Agathorn>
did you happen to see in the backlog my experiments with plotting values from various stages against volume and surface area?
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: AWESOME!
<NathanKell>
Sorry, had to step away for a few
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Nope, missed it, sorry
<soundnfury>
so, who wants to be the first guinea pig?
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: I'm happy to try it out :)
<NathanKell>
You can get everything from ~3% for a balloon booster stage to ~30% for a pressure-fed early upper like Able
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: basically I ran some math on the Vanguard, Redstone, Titan I and Titan II GLV and looked at mass per ~stage volume and mass per ~stage surface area.. and despite a few outliers (Vanguard 2nd stage and Redstone) I found that they all fell within a range of 13-17 kg per square meter when looking at stage mass verus surface area
<Agathorn>
probably meaningless but it was interesting nonetheless
<NathanKell>
Redstone is a big outlyer because IIRC it didn't have integral tanks
<NathanKell>
Vanguard Able is a big outlier because stainless steel
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: when you've installed it and fired up KSP, PM me for further instructions
<Agathorn>
Able is rather insane.. masses almost the same as the booster yet is a fraction of the volume/size
<NathanKell>
Oh, dry?
<Agathorn>
one thing I didn't account for though that ferram4 pointed out was things like avionics
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: yes dry - this was all dry
<Agathorn>
with approx engine mass removed
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: after moving over here, you check out pike place market yet?:)
<NathanKell>
Not yet
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Yeah. Stainless steel high-pressure tanks are heavy
<NathanKell>
Also, guidance and interstage and other stuff
<NathanKell>
but mostly dem tanks
* xShadowx
looks at his stainless tank and nods
<NathanKell>
anybody got a Catalan build? or are they actually non-IRC-only available now?
<NathanKell>
finally remembering to install Principia
<xShadowx>
:P
<xShadowx>
i thought egg was releasing builds now?
<NathanKell>
Pap: soundnfury will probably beat me :D
<Agathorn>
or do you have to determine the players up front
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: can't hotjoin, because of the need to track 'minimum date'
<soundnfury>
i.e. you have to know that all players have passed the date on which a First was achieved, before the player who got the First can be paid for it
<Pap>
I am assuming that the modlist needs to be identical?
<soundnfury>
Pap: nope, just needs matching ContractConfigurator configs
<Agathorn>
but can't you just treat it like that player never existed until such time as he decided to join, and anything that happened in his local game before his join date doesn't count?
<Pap>
Holy shit, this keeps getting better
<Agathorn>
just a thought anyway
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: well you _can_, but that's not ideal and I'm not sure if the current code would do that or if it would just catch fire
<Pap>
Alright soundnfury what do I have to do to get started?
<Agathorn>
catching fire is usually entertaining
<Pap>
Chicks dig flames
<Agathorn>
I do like the asynch bit though
<soundnfury>
Pap: All that RIS communicates is "player so-and-so completed FirstSatellite on date y2d100" or whatever
<Agathorn>
lets people play at a casual pace unless everyone else gets annoyed :D
<Agathorn>
s/unless/until
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: lets people play at a casual pace until everyone else gets annoyed :D
<soundnfury>
Pap: I'm just testing my new set of cfgs to match your contracts changes, once that's loaded ok I'll ship out the .zip
<soundnfury>
Pap: I'm guessing this means you want to join the game too?
<Pap>
Yeah, I've got some time tonight
<NathanKell>
can one of you fine folks do me a favor? Tell me how much the proc nosecone, and proc tank, on a procedural WAC costs?
<Pap>
RL dimensinos NathanKell?
<NathanKell>
1 foot diameter, I forget exactly how long
<Pap>
ok, i'll let you know what I get
<NathanKell>
Thanks
<NathanKell>
Ah, I think this is a 100 or 150, not a WAC anyway, so it's 18 inches
<Pap>
The Taerobee version is shorter and fatter than TL, I think
<Pap>
Yep
<NathanKell>
with a I think 1 minute burn time on the XASR-1
<Pap>
OK, I'll make it as a 150
<NathanKell>
or just match 'em if you got the Taerobee parts
<NathanKell>
I'm trying to cost the cone and tank and I have no clue :D
<NathanKell>
the other bits I know
<NathanKell>
Well, fins I guess, fins I also could use a proc check
<soundnfury>
ok, it looks like the new cfgs are working
<Agathorn>
hmm i've been using the term tank height but starting to notice most things reference it as tank length.. should I call it length instead?
<NathanKell>
oh, if you have perl just do it on your end once you pull from git
<NathanKell>
but that's a precompiled tree
<leudaimon>
ok, nice!
<Pap>
NathanKell: numbers coming shortly, someone set a procedural tank as a root part and boom goes the KSP
<leudaimon>
I have done the perl stuff before, but having it ready doesn't hurt
<NathanKell>
Pap: :]
<Probus>
NathanKell, are you streaming tonight?
<xShadowx>
he said soon ish
<Probus>
Ah, cool
<xShadowx>
nvm he said "shortly"
<xShadowx>
which is how many minutes difference?
<xShadowx>
o.O
<Probus>
17 I believe. :)
<Pap>
eleventy
<NathanKell>
Yep I'm setting up now
<NathanKell>
getting RIS started
<xShadowx>
have TF?:)
<Pap>
NathanKell: do you want the fuel tank wet cost?
* xShadowx
wants to see someone use abort option for once
<xShadowx>
i've never accually /seen/ anyone use abort / escape mechanics, i know TF adds a nice reason for em and some RO peeps use em, i just never seen :D
<NathanKell>
Pap: Yeah
<NathanKell>
I think so
<NathanKell>
Or maybe it's tanked but dry?
<Pap>
A procedural nose cone is free...
<NathanKell>
I forget :((
<Pap>
So here is the issue, it is a 2.9m tank, but it only holds 230 L which is only a 63% utiilization of a Proc tank
<Pap>
Tank Wet Cost = 42
<Pap>
Tank Dry Cost = 41
<Pap>
Nosecone Cost = 1
<NathanKell>
awesome!
<Pap>
Chute Cost = 38
<Pap>
I cannot get you Procedural Fins cost
<Pap>
I have done my part for the night
<NathanKell>
You have indeed! I'll check the wings now
<NathanKell>
with that pushed I'll start streaming :)
* xShadowx
hits button on microwave to start popcorn
<soundnfury>
hmm, I wonder if my PC can run KSP and play NathanKell's twitch stream at the same time...
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<leudaimon>
so many news difficulty options on 1.2.2
<leudaimon>
what is the "expected" for RP-0?
<xShadowx>
ya and mods can add their own
<xShadowx>
no more needing to edit cfg to tweak a game ;3
<NathanKell|Twitch>
thank Nightingale :)
<leudaimon>
:) what about the Comms and g-and aero- forces? does RT and DRE/FAR override those?
<xShadowx>
RT replaces stock comms
<xShadowx>
not sure on the difficulty settings if RT uses them or replaces
<leudaimon>
I wonder if I need to touch the settings?
<Pap>
soundnfury and NathanKell|Twitch - be gentle with me, I am a rookie
<xShadowx>
i recall tweaking sci/finds but i havent used RO 1.2.2 yet :|
<Agathorn>
woot! I got an initial version of the Stage Designer working. Can select an engine, and enter in custom tank values, and it spits out the basic properties of the new stage
<Agathorn>
of course everyone is watching NathanKell|Twitch so I guess i'm celebrating all alone
<xShadowx>
:P
<leudaimon>
lol
<leudaimon>
have anyone used proc. avionics already?
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: I've used it a bit
<leudaimon>
can't you tweak the amount of eletricity, or add other kinds of fuel tanks to the part?
<leudaimon>
and the cost looks weird also... for a given tonnage, it increases with size?!
<Agathorn>
could you have a highly pressurized tank even if the engine doesn't need it? Or would that screw up the engine
<xShadowx>
pressure regulators~
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: afaik you can't tweak the battery or add tankage
<Pap>
leudaimon: Proc Avionics is only for the "brains" of the rocket, from the beginning, you can only use a "Booster" or "Upper Stage" version
<xShadowx>
so id assume so?o.O
<leudaimon>
hum, I see... I was hoping it would allow to have a sattelite bus, with the batteries and RCS fuel in a single part
<soundnfury>
not sure whether the cost is behaving correctly, I think the curve is weird
<leudaimon>
the relationship between size, tonnage and cost is far from straightforward
<Pap>
It does not leudaimon
<leudaimon>
ok... that's a little weird, because even some non-procedural probe cores have a tank you can use freely
<leudaimon>
I expected the space not taken by the "brains" would be available as a tank
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: the brains take all the space, that's kinda the point
<Pap>
That is actually a good idea leudaimon, bring it up to rsparky
<soundnfury>
you stick a proc avi to a proc tank
<leudaimon>
I discussed some of the proc avi ideas with rsparkic when he was developing it... but I guess his concept diverges there
<Pap>
leudaimon: the goal is to tweak down the size of your Proc Avionics to use 100% of the available and there wouldn't be room for it
<Pap>
At the very beginning of career, your tech sucks so you are forced to support 3T right from the start until you unlock the better tech to allow probe core avionics
<leudaimon>
about the cost though, I think there might be a bug... the curve is not monotonic... there is a minimum price at the middle of the size range (at least for the starting part)
<Agathorn>
I do ahgree with Pap and soundnfury -- the idea of the proc avionics is that you have just that in there and no space left for anything else.
<Agathorn>
you've packed in as much control in the size given that you can based on tech and spent funds
<Agathorn>
only thing that might still fit in their would be cockroaches
<leudaimon>
lol
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: I share your suspicion about the cost curve btw
<leudaimon>
ok, you convinced me
<Agathorn>
hmm 312kg dry mas, 316kg wet mass - I think my math is wrong somewhere :D
<leudaimon>
I think the cost curve is buggy, but I'm seeing it is not updating correctly
<KevinStarwaster>
Ok, so on the RO wiki, I've seen that if you're going to try using MJ for an ascent that the turn shape should be 45%? I try to do something like 35% so I can go for shallow. WOuld 45% really be better? I've always tried to go way shallower than that
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: I forgot to grab those files for you and I'm kinda on my way out
<CobaltWolf>
leudaimon: I'm not sure what you mean, but I know that I had a good reason for modeling them ~3x bigger than the should have been for stock
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: but very soon it _will_ be too late, so speak now or forever hold your peace
<leudaimon>
soundnfury, I would like to join, but need a guideline...
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: ok, you're in time :) I've latched the game open
<leudaimon>
CobaltWolf, I mean the aerobee parts that come with RP-0 have a 0.3m diameter, and the parts from Taerobee have 0.4m
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: download that zip file, add it to a 1.2.2 install with standard RO & RP-0 (Pap-Contracts branch)
<leudaimon>
oh, ok
<leudaimon>
both the gamedata and server?
<soundnfury>
only gamedata
<soundnfury>
I'm running the server
<leudaimon>
ah right
<soundnfury>
then start a new game, difficulty 'Moderate', KCT preset 'RP0', and PM me when you're at the spacecenter
<CobaltWolf>
leudaimon: oh dear
<CobaltWolf>
wait what are y'all talking about?
<leudaimon>
ok, restarting ksp
<leudaimon>
any mod list?
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: I don't think anything beyond the standard RO and RP-0 stuff is needed
<soundnfury>
you can add parts mods if you like (I'm using FASA, for instance)
<leudaimon>
fine, I think I have some part mods, but few
* soundnfury
is checking GameData to see what else he has
<leudaimon>
ah, I usually play from a custom launch site in Brazil I set up for my games... but can go for a regular one if that is an issue
<soundnfury>
SCANsat, TestFlight, TACLS... think that's about it for game-affecting things
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: nah, I think custom launch sites are fine, I certainly shan't complain
<soundnfury>
(I actually have added a launch site in Iceland, though I'm not using it this playthrough...)
<CobaltWolf>
is shan't a real word?
<soundnfury>
CobaltWolf: yup, short for "shall not". Difference between "will" and "shall" is complicated and fun
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<CobaltWolf>
will't?
<CobaltWolf>
oh
<CobaltWolf>
wait
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<Agathorn>
soundnfury: you need real date formatting
<NathanKell>
Pap, leudaimon, soundnfury: Seems like the viable approaches for you folks are (a) beat me to Karman by not messing up; (b) do sound barrier before Karman; (c) go for satellites even earlier than me ?
<NathanKell>
or try a non-rush and catch up later, hoping I'll leave myself in a corner or suffer TF failures? :]
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: I'm deliberately slow-balling my start
<soundnfury>
pumping all my BP into R&D :)
<NathanKell>
Aaaah, yes, very viable indeed
<NathanKell>
The only way I can counter is the free upgrades from unlocking nodes with science
<NathanKell>
which happily you get when you spend the science, not when the node unlocks
<NathanKell>
so orbit (with sufficient batteries) is gonna let me get a lot of upgrades
<rsparkyc>
NathanKell: everything working on 1.2.2 for you?
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: HypergolicSkunk left a message for you in #RO [29.05.2017 11:59:06]: "would it make sense to enable mid-to-late-tech procedural avionics to come equipped with (configurable) solar panels/antennae/RCS thrusters? is this even possible? my end-goal is to have the smallest part-count possible for when I send a batch of comsats to the Moon or to another planet, while not wanting to launch once for
<Qboid>
each sat."
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: Yep! Although I discovered an issue with that AviationCockpits patch I said was good :]
<NathanKell>
Do you want in on the RIS btw?
<rsparkyc>
haha, better late than never
<rsparkyc>
RIS?
<NathanKell>
soundnfury's asynch multiplayer for RP-0
<leudaimon>
wow! KRASH sim costs are much higher than KCT's
<rsparkyc>
sure, send me the details, though i don't know how much time i'd be able to commit
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: Have we ever configured its costs?
<NathanKell>
we may not have
<NathanKell>
it might be using stock-KSP costs
<NathanKell>
soundnfury you on it or shall I?
<leudaimon>
don't know, but a sim for a 39credit WAC costs a minimum of 800ish
<NathanKell>
that sounds like we didn't tune it
<NathanKell>
I know I didn't, I left before KCT stopped doing sims
<NathanKell>
if nobody else did, then that's why
<rsparkyc>
!tell HypergolicSkunk anything's possible, though the configuration on those would be tricky. Right now, procedural avionics is just a glorified procedural battery, so we'd have to use something else if we wanted solar panels and the like
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: there's still time for rsparkyc to join, yeah
<NathanKell>
\o/
<rsparkyc>
how does that all work?
* soundnfury
latches game open again to make sure, just in case leudaimon syncs
<rsparkyc>
commit a save file in git?
<soundnfury>
rsparkyc: nope, it's all magic networkingy
<soundnfury>
all it does is track who's the first to reach various milestones, and give them extra funds
<Agathorn>
arg propellant mass is coming out way wonky
<rsparkyc>
cool. Let me know if you see any procedural fairings issues when using interstage adapters
<acc>
leudaimon: you have to tweak it down a bit manually, in the ingame settings
<Agathorn>
oh ffs.. these units are goign to be the death of me
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<NathanKell>
they were the death of a Mars orbiter :P
<NathanKell>
o/ stratochief
<Agathorn>
guess I should feel ok then
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<Agathorn>
is it thrust / mass or mass/ thrust
<leudaimon>
I depend on a successful second flight to beat NathanKell now
<SpecimenSpiff>
I used to know a guy who worked at JPL at the time of that mars orbiter screwup. his tales of the post-mortem inquisition and head banging were harrowing
<Agathorn>
the head bangign especially I imagine
<Agathorn>
almost want to hear a recoding of the room when the problem was discovered
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: how did you manage to get the Karman line contract early enough you _can_ have a second flight?
<Agathorn>
SpecimenSpiff: wonder what the swear jar looked like after that :D
<SpecimenSpiff>
rather full, I imagine
<leudaimon>
first flight -> karman line
<leudaimon>
my first flight was a failure
<NathanKell>
oh I see
<leudaimon>
I was hoping to gather some science on this first one
<leudaimon>
btw, have the upgrade costs been raised?
<leudaimon>
for the buildings I mean
<NathanKell>
Um. Probably because of the fund loss penalty thing in Moderate preset?
<NathanKell>
We never did get around to making our own presets
<NathanKell>
I added the code in KSP to allow that
<leudaimon>
Pap, those are much saner than the current values
<leudaimon>
just beat you NathanKell|AFK!
<Pap>
leudaimon: was your first launch just a 100 delta-v craft?
<Pap>
That is what I should have done
<soundnfury>
Pap: my first launch was an Aerobee to 50-odd km. My second was a Tim-boosted Aerobee past 100km.
<Pap>
Nice, around day 18 or so?
<soundnfury>
my launches were about day 16 and 33
<soundnfury>
But that's because I'm playing a "get the science moving" game rather than going for fastest KarmanUncrewed. I aim to be first to orbit :D
<Pap>
NathanKell|AFK: is going for his A-4 to orbit move, it is going to be tough to beat him
<leudaimon>
Pap, it was a WAC without the Tim-Boost
<soundnfury>
Pap: is he doing it with TL0 parts?
<soundnfury>
because, I'm planning to use an A-4 first stage for my orbital launch too
<leudaimon>
and the second with the Tim-boost
<soundnfury>
but with Able and XASR-1 uppers
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: are you gonna SYNC so you get your moneys?
<leudaimon>
reached 180km in thay 18
<leudaimon>
yep, just crashed
<Pap>
think he is going for Tier 1, but I could be wrong
<leudaimon>
was trying to get the most science possible
<leudaimon>
>.> nice "leader" title
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: ah yes, now I have to explain that
<leudaimon>
I forgot how much science you get at moderate
<Agathorn>
hmm my wet mass seems high now
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|AFK: already knows this I think, but for the rest of you, leudaimon Pap rsparkyc: when you win a first, you become the Leader, which means that you won't get money for subsequent firsts until someone else becomes Leader.
<soundnfury>
You can still grab a first and stop anyone else getting it, but that means you remain Leader and can't get money for the _next_ first.
<Agathorn>
my dry mass calcs for Vanguard 1st are comign in just a hair under real world but the wet mass is nearly double real world
<leudaimon>
oh, creates some interesting strategy possibilites
<soundnfury>
The idea here is to stop the leader getting further and further ahead and leaving everyone else behind.
<soundnfury>
The in-universe justification is that the government will pay you a lot more money for overtaking the Russkies than for never being behind them in the first place ;)
<Agathorn>
I wonder if maybe I am getting too much propellant into the tank
<Agathorn>
oh actually i'm using a tank length that includes the engine when it shouldn't
<Pap>
First Suborbital Return -> BIG science
<Agathorn>
which means i'm getting more prop than vanguard
<Agathorn>
no idea how tall the x-405 is though
<soundnfury>
Pap: heh, I literally have a rocket on the pad right now to do that :)
<Agathorn>
no you virtually do :)
<Pap>
well, if you have synced, then you'll be ahead of me by 12 days!
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: it's still literal; it's not figurative :P
<soundnfury>
Pap: nah, I'm at day 122 now
<Agathorn>
how would you know since literally also means figuratively now
<Agathorn>
because stupid people
<soundnfury>
aaaaaand it's not quite gonna make it to 140km :(
<leudaimon>
man, these upgrades cost a kidney each
<soundnfury>
139,306m. Grumble.
<leudaimon>
:/ that's unfair
<Agathorn>
700m is still quite a distance
<leudaimon>
lol
<Agathorn>
not like you could just stick your hand out and make it up
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: yeah but it's ½%
<Agathorn>
want some cheese with that? :D
<Pap>
soundnfury: I am going to say that you have created a VERY fun and tension producing mod here
<soundnfury>
Pap: thanks :)
<leudaimon>
:) yep, very nice soundnfury
<leudaimon>
btw, loving the RD101 and 102 in the starting node!
<Pap>
Alright, off to bed, be interested to see how far into last place I am tomorrow!
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<leudaimon>
hey Pap and NathanKell|AFK, shouldn't the RD-103 be on early orbital?
<leudaimon>
the config is unlocking in early construction
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<Agathorn>
does about 6,800m/s dV sound about reasonable for a Vanguard 1st stage by itself?
<leudaimon>
Looks high... 2/3 in a first stage is crazy
<Agathorn>
but without the other stages on it
<Agathorn>
so its a lot less massive
<Agathorn>
or maybe my math is wrong again.. wouldn't surprise me
<Agathorn>
if you launched just the first stage all by its lonesome without the rest of the rocket :)
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<Agathorn>
see image ^^
<SpecimenSpiff>
does anyone have a link to a compiled rp-o tree?
<Agathorn>
I still thi my wet mass is coming in too hight, or my calculated internal tank volume is off - probably the latter
<leudaimon>
Agathorn, what is the ISP you are using?
<Agathorn>
For the 8m long tank in the above image, my code calculated a 2.43m long fuel tank and a 5.56m long oxidizer tank. Those are both represented by cylinders with half domes top and bottom
<Agathorn>
248s
<Agathorn>
Isp
<leudaimon>
do you have the actual mass values?
<Agathorn>
Here is a more complete capture with all the numbers: http://i.imgur.com/QVt9UlS.jpg (includes some debug on the far right)
<Agathorn>
leudaimon: I have actual amss values but this isn't a 100% vanguard clone.. just close
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<Agathorn>
so the mass values are off.. a bit on the dry mass, more than a bit on the wet mass.. still wondering why
<Agathorn>
I might just be overestimating how much room there is inside for the tanks
<leudaimon>
your delta-v math is correct, but it's hard to know if the tanks are correct
<Agathorn>
not sure if there is typically some dead space distance between the two tanks? Right now I calculate it basically as if the bottom dome of the top tank touches the top dome of the bottom tank
<Agathorn>
the tanks aren't going to be 100% correct no matter what.. just trying to get them close
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<Agathorn>
I' not using the vanguard numbers for that but rather calculating numbers on a stage similiar in size to the vanguard
<Agathorn>
the 1st stage was 12.2m long according to wikipedia, but not sure how much of that was engine. Can't find a lenmgth for the x-405
<Agathorn>
using a tank of 8m long gives me *close* values
<leudaimon>
yeah, I got it... do you know what percentage of the total volume is fuel/oxidizer?
<Agathorn>
but a little LOW on the dry mass and a little HIGH on the wet mass values
<leudaimon>
in your tanks
<Agathorn>
its a 2.29 ratio .. look at the right of that image and you will see some of those internally calculated values
<leudaimon>
sorry, I wasn't clear
<Agathorn>
2.09 m^3 for fuel and 5.29 m^3 for oxidizer
<leudaimon>
what percentage of the cilinder volume is taken up by liquids?
<Agathorn>
although now that I think about it..that 2.29 ratio would be mass ratio not volume ratio so thats going to be off :(
<Agathorn>
not sure off the top of my head.. I simulate two stacked pill shapoed tanks
<leudaimon>
this mass/volume stuff is a pain
<Agathorn>
heh all these units are a pain..half of my mistakes were just using the wrong units
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<Agathorn>
its close enough for now and the dV and burn time nbumbers look *sane*
<Agathorn>
so at least i'm not in some other ballpark :)
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: so I'm watching waaaay behind because Twitch won't play anything for me so I'm just now watching Ep 1 on youtube
<soundnfury>
I wouldn't kill you for reverting, I think reverting in that situation would be acceptable.
<soundnfury>
(by which I mean, revert to launch and stage the thing as quickly as possible before it has time to turn upside down)
<xShadowx>
\o
* xShadowx
passes out
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: No, because we don't have oxygen yet
<NathanKell>
Also I am profoundly uncertain of anything but a SS1-style shuttlecock surviving reentry (with that level of thermal shielding)
<NathanKell>
I've easily done suborbitals with Supersonic level tech
<NathanKell>
but not with subsonic wings and a jet cockpit
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<leudaimon>
I tested it with the X-1 cockpit and it worked pretty well with a small boostback
<leudaimon>
I'm about to launch the real thing now
<leudaimon>
basically an A-4 with an X-1 "capsule"
<NathanKell>
Yes, but I only had the Meteor cockpit :)
<NathanKell>
It's not bad at all with the X-1, that has nearly triple the max skin temp
<leudaimon>
sure
<leudaimon>
I was just surprised you didn't do that to achieve the kerman line objective on RIS
<NathanKell>
I was still ~30 days from unlocking the supersonic node
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: I hope you're not risking kerbal lives in the pursuit of records...
<NathanKell>
Kerbals, goodness no. Humans, yes.
<soundnfury>
... ah who am I kidding, we're all gonna kill so many astronauts in this game xD
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Ooh, it's a bit late but, house rule: you lose points (whatever they are) per death.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vHW1F
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 47ff9d0 NathanKell: Fix Taerobee Aerobee engine shroud to show on top connect not bottom connect (and not come off with the decoupler)
<KevinStarwaster>
NathanKell, so, are you aware that we can now have boiloff gas produced that in RF?
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<NathanKell>
KevinStarwaster: Awesome!!!
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vHW1p
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 51a10a5 NathanKell: Fix Aviation Cockpits patches to play nicer with RP-0
<leudaimon>
\o/ crewed karman line on day 94!
<KevinStarwaster>
so you can recreate fuelcells that actually use the gas from the boiloff. (it makes it easier than using the liquid version because you're not losing as much resource. It goes into the fuelcells)
<NathanKell>
\o/
<KevinStarwaster>
it's not really implemented in RO though yet. I've got some configs I'm going to throw out though that can be used if you have TAC
<leudaimon>
you are probably gonna beat me... I tought it was you who did the first sat on d337
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: ?
<NathanKell>
d337 ?
<leudaimon>
it was soundnfury
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: gasp, d94? that was fast
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: yeah tbh I think NathanKell will beat my d337
<NathanKell>
I only need the pad upgrade, hopefully that will take rather fewer than 300 days
<soundnfury>
I held off longer than necessary on accepting the contract, so didn't have as much funds to buy KCT points with as I perhaps could have had
<leudaimon>
why do you need more than 40T for a sat?
<soundnfury>
Pad upgrade? Huh, my orbital LV was only about 14t.
<NathanKell>
But you have tech
<NathanKell>
I no haz
<soundnfury>
Is NathanKell building a Soyuz out of A-4s?
<NathanKell>
yes
<leudaimon>
lol
<NathanKell>
I've done it on 40t but that's annoying
<Agathorn>
!tell NathanKell I haven't yet determined if I want to model variable Isp. Doing so makes nearly all the math an order of magnitude more complex and we all know how much trouble I have with even the easy stuff :)
<Qboid>
Agathorn: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<rsparkyc>
hey Pap
<rsparkyc>
i'm going to submit a PR to your branch of RP-0
<rsparkyc>
it fixes some procedural avionics issues when changing the shape type
<rsparkyc>
haha, the issue is RO#644, the PR is RO#664
<Qboid>
[#644] title: Added new SSTU tanks | added a new 5.5m tank, and added RO support for three new tanks that come with the SSTU pack (0.625m, 1.875m and 6.25m) aswell... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/issues/644
<Pap>
It fixes the information not updating correctly on the GUI?
<rsparkyc>
the shape not updating
<Pap>
nice! I have had that issue for sure
<leudaimon>
hey rsparkyc! The early controllable core/like tech level is not configured yet, right? do you still have that spreadsheet in which we add the data and it gives the stats to add in the node?
<leudaimon>
I have a 1.2.2 install now, so I could try to do that
<rsparkyc>
yeah, should be in the RP-0 readme
<leudaimon>
ah ok, stopped reading it just before the link >.>
<rsparkyc>
haha
<rsparkyc>
yeah, it's kinda long
<leudaimon>
once I get home later I'll try that
<rsparkyc>
cool
<leudaimon>
you created an issue regarding that... about the volume being too lower than the ranger... any ideas on how to deal with that?
<rsparkyc>
we could always change the early controllable core
<rsparkyc>
i think it's a made up part anyway
<rsparkyc>
but i'd run that by NathanKell|Away
<Agathorn>
So after plotting various rocket stages from various eras and comparing dry mass versus approximate volume and surface area my conclusion is that.. its all over the place and totally unpredictable lol
<Agathorn>
Dry mass is indicated with mass of the stage engine removed
<Agathorn>
now obviously some of these stages will have additional mass for avionics and guidance, but I don't know which or how much that accounts for stage mass unfortunately
<Agathorn>
interesting how insanely efficient the DCSS is though on both mass per volume and mass per surface area!
<Theysen>
18 minute burn time is still exhausting
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<Agathorn>
Mass per volume on the Vanguard 2nd stage and the Thor-Delta A 2nd stage though are way off the charts in comparions to everything else which is also interesting
<Agathorn>
either those had vastly differet construction, or were carrying something else rather massive besides propellant
<leudaimon>
yeah, that's possible... actually mass is much more important than volume... I wouldn't mind a larger proc core, as long as efficiency is similar
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<regex>
Ah, for the guidance. I might be way behind on the conversation so please pardon any ignorance, but the Delta stage was fairly compact and carried attitude adjustment, and hypergolics which were pressure fed. Wouldn't that explain the mass?
<regex>
At least in comparison to larger stages considering that guidance software doesn't really have to scale up so much?
<CobaltWolf>
Delta K stage has an effing awful mass ratio IIRC
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<stratochief>
Agathorn: IIRC, these heavy stages were the pressurized ones? so, heavy tankage
<stratochief>
"heavily pressurized, pressure fed" to satisfy the pedants
<Agathorn>
stratochief: interesting.. I wanted to indicate on my data which tanks were pressurized, balloon, insulated, etc but I wsn't sure of the details on each
<Agathorn>
but if those higher end ones are pressurized tanks then that adds singificantly more mass that I expected
<stratochief>
Agathorn: the RO engines data is a fairly good feedstock if detailed and accurate info. if an engine is configured as requiring a pressurized tank in RO, then that is probably correct
<Agathorn>
good point
<stratochief>
balloon is Atlas (pre numbered. Rokker or someone might know more about tank construction later on) and Centaur. insulated was most tanks containing oxygen or cryogenics after Saturn?
<Agathorn>
stratochief: btw did you happen to see the video I uploaded last night showing the stage designer in action? Its still changing somewhat but that was a pretty good representation of it in action
<stratochief>
Agathorn: I did!
<stratochief>
lookin good
<stratochief>
I agree with NK's sentiment that the sea level and vacuum ISP should both be listed
<Agathorn>
yeah did you see my response to that by chance?
<stratochief>
missed that
<Agathorn>
"I haven't yet determined if I want to model variable Isp. Doing so makes nearly all the math an order of magnitude more complex and we all know how much trouble I have with even the easy stuff :)"
<stratochief>
for now, you can crudely handle ISP the way I do in my excel sheet for estimating dV of stages ::P
<Agathorn>
Something to keep in mind is that it was never my intent to 100% accuratrly physically model the entire rocket flight - but rather to do some basic generlaztion of mission performance based on goals and deltav
<regex>
Agathorn, your site is down, is there a link?
<Agathorn>
so the differences in variable Isp might actually fall within a margin of error
<stratochief>
if you don't account for the low SL thrust of some engines in comparison to the great vacuum, people might use vacuum engines for their first stage :P
<Agathorn>
regex: sorry about that.. its under construction at the moment so the old links aren't valid.. which piece of information were you looking for?
<Agathorn>
stratochief: that is a valid point
<Agathorn>
I was rtrying to figure out this morning how to calculate the change in Isp based on atm pressure but got lost in math
<Agathorn>
variable Isp also means I need to integrate deltav calcs too I think? :(
<stratochief>
Agathorn: you could lock out some engines, to not be allowed on first stages? then list whichever ISP you wnat :P
<stratochief>
Agathorn: ahh, guesstimate is always good. most burn time & dV is produced towards the vacuum ISP side, for most first/core stages. IIRC, my spreadsheed averages SL&Vac ISP, weighted towards Vac at 0.8 or something
<Agathorn>
not entirely sure how I am going to handle it.. I would LIKE to have the variable Isp/Thrust based on pressure but i'm just a bit scared at that that does to my maths
<Agathorn>
stratochief: yeah thats an option.. especially since you get past that "sl" issue pretty quick I thought
<Agathorn>
I mean at 10km altitude the pressure is alreadsy stupidly low
<stratochief>
yeah, constantly managing ISP, thrust, etc. within your game is basically building a substantial component of KSP. just guesstimate it behind the scenes, ensure somehow that vacuum optimized engines aren't used on first stages
<Agathorn>
well aren't vac optimized engines usually much lower thrust?
<Agathorn>
can't see somone trying to lifft off with an AJ10
<stratochief>
what, you're not going to allow clusters? :P
<Agathorn>
and I DO calculate a go/no-go flight profile based on the rocket's poroperties
<regex>
Agathorn, the video you mentioned
<Agathorn>
stratochief: heh ok got me there.. I am
<Agathorn>
regex: ahh on yt.. one sec
<stratochief>
and an AJ10 could be a first stage for a small-ish rocket. or a J-2 has a lot more thrust than some first stage engines
<regex>
A J-2 with some solids for a first stage? Count me in, seems legit.
<Agathorn>
wait that viudeo isn't right
<Agathorn>
dafuq
<Agathorn>
arg why didn't anyone tell me that video was fucked up?!
<Agathorn>
it just shows visual studio due to OBS messing uip the autoswitch scenes
<stratochief>
the quickest/laziest way would be to have a cutoff ISP (for each fuel combo) that you're not allowed to go below for a first stage something like that
<Agathorn>
regex: i'll record a new one here in a little bit
<stratochief>
Agathorn: lol. well, we didn't know what you intended to show, also given the lack of sound. and I did get to see the GUI at the beginning, which looked goo
<Agathorn>
I'm expanding the UI to include things like bulkhead design and guidance/control options
<stratochief>
down the rabbit hole, agathorn goes
<Agathorn>
no rabbiot holes here.. i'm just updating the UI not adding the code for those yet
<Agathorn>
right now its calculating based on a split bulkead
<soundnfury>
stratochief: there's no such thing as making a game too complicated :)
<regex>
Heh, i just wanted to see your progress, NBD if it's a BD
<Agathorn>
the rabbit hole is that I need to design a system to allow for tech unlocked options.. not going there yet
<stratochief>
ahh, fair enough. any ideas how you plan to handle soviet tankage? or will you stick with american parts for now
<Agathorn>
what is different about soviet tanks? Unfortunately I know little about russian spaceflight
<Agathorn>
my initial prototype is all based on a Vanguard though so thats my focus for intial systems
<stratochief>
Agathorn: just.. very heavy, 'solidly built'. like, the 5 part R-7 was like 300 pounds, just to launch bloody sputnik
<Agathorn>
right now i'm calculating structral mass based on a given mass per square meter of surface area
<Agathorn>
Not sure if you saw the plotting I did on that? I found some interesting correlations across vehicles
<stratochief>
yeah. you should see how the soviet stuff fits there :P
<Agathorn>
anyway AFK for a brief few minutes.. want to run to the corner store and grab a soda
<Agathorn>
stratochief: yeah I should
<Agathorn>
stratochief: something else to consider though, something that BARIS/BASPM had to deal with as well and even RO/RP0, is when people can freely use hardware form either side you almost need to find some common ground between them.. BARIS/BASPM fudged the numbers some to make both US and Russian hardware similar in performance
<Agathorn>
for ST adding in procedural creation of engines and tanks irt becomes nearly impossible to make historical hardware 100% accurate because Bespoke hardware doesn't follow any real logical rules - each launcher is vastly different
<Agathorn>
my goal right now it so develop solid rules for procedurally calculating performance of some parts and then the historical pieces will essentially be a hybrid of known values + calculated ones
<Agathorn>
that may change, but it is my goal at the moment
<stratochief>
fair enough, seems to be a reasonable goal.
<CobaltWolf>
Is rocket hardware mostly considered bespoke?
<Agathorn>
sure seems that way up until maybe the very most recvent stuff
<stratochief>
bespoke: (of goods, especially clothing) made to order
<Agathorn>
even then its mostly bespoke for each company
<stratochief>
generally, yeah. kind-of design, order like a dozen. that is a pretty small production run for something so large and complex
<Agathorn>
bespoke doesn't neccesarily dictate how many of somethign is made, only that it is made custom for the use case
<Agathorn>
the processor in an iPhone is a bespoke design, even thoug millions are manufactured
<CobaltWolf>
I understood that, I more meant... I knew that generally speaking there were incremental improvements to each production run. I don't know how much variance there is between items in each one
<CobaltWolf>
oh nvm I didn't understand then
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: I guess what i'm trying to say is its hard to find a golden formula say that could calculate dry mass acurately across every launcher ever made based on input properties -- each is just too different
<stratochief>
the iPhone processor design was perhaps bespoke, but the process of pounding out millions of them is not, IMO.
<Agathorn>
So many design decisions on each that you would need to model
<CobaltWolf>
And listed numbers on, say, Astronautix (I know he can be unreliable sometimes, just as an example) aren't good enough to go on?
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: sure if ALL i hand was histrocial parts
<CobaltWolf>
oh?
<Agathorn>
but once you let a user create their own tank say, you need to calculate properites of that tank.. and those calcuklated properites even for an exactly similiar tank wouldn't match a RL example
<Agathorn>
so instead of having that obvious different between RL and Proedural, if I just make the histoprical parts also procedural-ish but based on real numbers,.. I can better close the gap and make things a bit more even
<CobaltWolf>
oh dear
<Agathorn>
not sure if that makes sense?
<CobaltWolf>
yeah sounds like a pain
<CobaltWolf>
I was going to say (and i just added that to the beginning of this message so I can send it anyways) if you're trying to model the subtle differences between each individual launcher from a given design, I'd think that maybe adding a tuning system similar to Armored Core would be appropriate.
<Agathorn>
when I re-record this video I will build a stage with a tank rougfhly the same size as Vanguard 1st, but while the size will be accurate, the calculated numbers won't be
<Agathorn>
I guess the flip side is i'm not neccesarily trying to model those subtle differences :)
<CobaltWolf>
You had a fixed amount of tuning points you can spend. Not much, like if you dump them all into one category (say, improving dry mass) you might get a percentage or two out of it, but at the cost of integrity
<CobaltWolf>
Yeah just wanted to get that out there since I already had the idea :P
<Agathorn>
no I like the idea.. its similiar to something I was actually going to do with TestFlight
<CobaltWolf>
Ugh that's such a PITA. The construction of different stages is always so different.
<CobaltWolf>
and you can see the rockets in this right? It's not like BARIS?
<Agathorn>
and might do somethjign like that.. but I guess the bottom line is i'm not trying to neccesarily exactly duplicate historical hardware but rather integrate them with user created hardware so that they feel homegenous
<Agathorn>
You will see the rockets yes
<CobaltWolf>
yeah I gotchu. I meant that such a tuning system might be a fun way to represent how generally there are somewhat ad-hoc modifications made to individual examples of a given launcher, somewhat separate from the thing you're doing. Like I said, an idea. :)
<CobaltWolf>
and you want to try and have the stages be somewhat procedural? Strikes me as probably being somewhat difficult, with how unique so many stages are (esp upper stage) I'd think you'd have to restrict the player significantly
<Agathorn>
yeah there will be limits
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: My teammates just tried to open one of my Nuke scripts... oh dear. I try to keep them with a proper B spine and branches, but this late in the project they look more like fractal spiderwebs
<Agathorn>
It isn't quite a "token" procedural system but it isn't incredibly in depoth either
<rsparkyc>
anyone have an RO/RP-0 game running?
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<leudaimon>
!tell rsparkyc What part do you use as reference to calculate the stats for the proc avionics? I'm using a service module procedural tank and price is 0 for the size
<Qboid>
leudaimon: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<leudaimon>
is mechjeb's ascent guidance not working?
<leudaimon>
It is staging like crazy when I launch