<Agathorn>
I assume I want the densityu of the liquid forms
<NathanKell>
yes
<Agathorn>
god who knew there were so many resources
<xShadowx>
........that just scratchin it
<xShadowx>
imagine if someone made full indepth EL recipes ;p
<NathanKell>
just grab the ones you want at first (probably ethanol 75, ethanol 93, lox, RP-1, irfna-iii, udmh. Maybe gaseous nitrogen for RCS.)
<NathanKell>
that'll get you up to 1960
<NathanKell>
well, Hydyne for Jupiter-C/Juno maybe.
<NathanKell>
I mean technically Vanguard used IWFNA so you might want that too, Able switched to IRFNA
<Agathorn>
In what engine?
<NathanKell>
AJ10
<Agathorn>
See the problem is the data I get from say Wikipedia is much more generic
<Agathorn>
The AJ10 is listed as Nitric Acid and UDMH
<NathanKell>
AJ10-37 used IWFNA, subsequent AJ10s used IRFNA until the SPS and Transtage variants that went to NTO/AZ50
<xShadowx>
why is mass in tonnes and resources in liters >.> seems like mass in kg wouldve been more logical, esp since so many parts are <1 tonne
<Agathorn>
Ahh right
<Agathorn>
IWFNA would be a more specific nitric acid
<KevinStarwaster>
ok so I've been having this thought lately... that there should be a mechanism by which it's possible for resources (on a part by part basis) to be declared exempt from ModularFuelTanks deletion.
<NathanKell>
Basically they're all nitric acid with different inhibitors, there's a variety of reds too
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: HTP :P
<NathanKell>
the AKs are the Russian nitric acids
<soundnfury>
cannot into A-4 without dem turbopumps
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: A fair point, although I'm not sure if Agathorn is bothering to simulate that
<soundnfury>
heh
<KevinStarwaster>
probably by specifying a set quantity for exemption
<NathanKell>
KevinStarwaster: If the tank doesn't have a TANK for that resource, it won't be nuked.
<NathanKell>
You can specify specific TANK_DEFINITIONs per part so...
<NathanKell>
(IIRC)
<KevinStarwaster>
yes you're absolutely right
<KevinStarwaster>
and I'm finding that it's not enough
<NathanKell>
ah?
<KevinStarwaster>
as you might or might not know I've been maintaining Ioncross for awhile now
<KevinStarwaster>
and I keep finding that O2 resources get trashed by other configs
<NathanKell>
ah, yeah
<KevinStarwaster>
it takes some careful interception and editing to stop that from happening
<KevinStarwaster>
if I could just go ahead and let those other configs do what they want but just insert a simple exemption saying that 2550 liters of O2 are not to be touched
<Agathorn>
wow oxygen is dense
<Agathorn>
err LOX is dense
<KevinStarwaster>
about as dense as water, yeah
<NathanKell>
it's 14% denser than water
<NathanKell>
ninjawaster
<KevinStarwaster>
and it's not just other configs
<KevinStarwaster>
let's say I go ahead and set up a definition or edit an existing definition (typically, command modules get set to ServiceModule tank type) in-game a player could just go ahead and delete all tanks
<KevinStarwaster>
and I think there's other life support mods that might be affected here
* soundnfury
wonders if he should livestream RIS development, so people can hear the swearing
<KevinStarwaster>
so player goes and deletes and edits tanks and forgets that it needs Oxygen or his crew will DIE
<KevinStarwaster>
but if we set up an exemption for a quantity of resource
<KevinStarwaster>
let's say it might look something like EXEMPT_RESOURCES { Oxygen, amount = 2550 } then MFT will make sure that much of that resource will always exist
<KevinStarwaster>
batteries are something else that can be affected by bad config editing. I sometimes run across a command module that has negative volume because some config set a static amount of battery space
<KevinStarwaster>
but then allocated more battery capacity than it had actually allocated space for
<KevinStarwaster>
so I think that's something else that could benefit fromt he system I'm proposing
<KevinStarwaster>
FWIW, Martha agrees with me
<egg>
!wpn NathanKell
* Qboid
gives NathanKell a lemma/spectrometer hybrid
<NathanKell>
(a) I'm not really sure how MFT might do such a thing, because of only one PartResource of a given type issues (and thus MFT would have to set its subtank as such), but (b) I have no philosophical objections so if somebody wants to do that it's cool by me
<NathanKell>
also (c) Martha?
<KevinStarwaster>
my feral cat
<KevinStarwaster>
Martha Stewart
<KevinStarwaster>
she had a single kitten who we named... Patrick. Stewart.
<NathanKell>
Ah :)
<KevinStarwaster>
anyway, programatically, I think it would when setting resources just tack on a RESOURCE of each exempt type of the given amount/maxAmount
<KevinStarwaster>
that should have the desired effect
<darsie>
KSP 1.2.2 crashes during launch with RO, RSS and RP-0. I'll wait some more ...
<NathanKell>
Anybody know the last good mechjeb dev for 1.2.2?
<NathanKell>
I'm guessing #698?
<KevinStarwaster>
I prefer #694 as it has better ullage handling
<KevinStarwaster>
between #694 and #698 something broke as far as ullage goes. #698 should fix it except that sometimes it fails
<NathanKell>
heh
<NathanKell>
ok, going to 694 then, thanks!
<ferram4>
Agathorn, remember to include the interesting fuels. Like H+Li+F.
<NathanKell>
but I want to liiiiiiiiive
<Agathorn>
At the moment I don't even have the ability to handle tripropellants
<ferram4>
NathanKell, but 500s+ Isp! Anyhow, it's not like the Cape isn't already contaminated with all sorts of shit, why not make it a little worse? :D
<Agathorn>
I'll probably have to refactor how I handle propellant in the future.. its actually more complicated a beast than I gave it credit for
<NathanKell>
"why not make it a little worse?" <<< ferram4 (c) 2017
<Agathorn>
think of the gators and manatees man
Sigma88 is now known as SigmaAway
<ferram4>
Agathorn, you want to though. That's the easiest way to handle A-4 and R7 engines, consideirng you can put in Ethanol/Kerosene + LOX + HTP.
<ferram4>
And then add code to allow excepting certain propellants for Isp purposes because for some reason the Isp for those engines isn't calculated accounting for HTP usage because REASONS.
<Agathorn>
I was originally trying to stick with mixtures that had pre-calculated performance
<NathanKell>
because it's not combuuuuuuusted
Pap|HoneyDoList is now known as Pap
<NathanKell>
so it doesn't count
<NathanKell>
o/ Pap
<Pap>
o/ all
<NathanKell>
I'm setting up my 1.2.2 install. Fun times.
<Agathorn>
buecause trying to calculate theoretical Isp of any given mixture is probably waaay over my head
<Pap>
NathanKell: that is a bold faced lie that it is fun
<Pap>
nathan
<Pap>
^ oops
<Agathorn>
What I may do is instead just build up a huge database of all known combinations of propellants
<NathanKell>
uh...but MR
<ferram4>
Agathorn, it's actually easy enough if you assume perfect combustion and mixture ratio to burn everything. The numbers will also be lower than the true values though.
<Agathorn>
and treat them as precombined data... but then segregating tanks becomes confusing.. ug
<ferram4>
Because burning rich or lean can end up being better. :D
<Pap>
NathanKell: So I have managed to create a Tech Tree that can represent single years from 1951 to 1979, then bi-yearly until 1995 and then by 5 years after that until 2025
<Agathorn>
most of the data tables i've seen with theoretical Isp based on mixture has actually shown Isp values significantly above real world
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<Pap>
We can use that simple grid to create the tech tree that we want to have
<ferram4>
Yep. And that's higher than the values you'd get calculating with that simplified model.
<Agathorn>
ahh
<Agathorn>
not sure how much I trut you though when you say "simple model".. i've seen your so called simple before :)
<NathanKell>
Pap: ok! :)
<Agathorn>
think I had seen a page on Braenig once that involve all sorts of chemistry maths
<ferram4>
Agathorn, it's easy! Well, except for Kerosene. That becomes complicated because of how difficult it is to say, "this is what's in it"
<ferram4>
But you get the chemical reactions, run them through to figure out what comes out the other end.
<acc>
Tatooine 1 and 2 on their way to mars \o/
<NathanKell>
\o/
<Agathorn>
hah nice names
<ferram4>
If you assume everything reacts completely at the perfect mixture ratio for it, it's only high school chem.
<acc>
Agathorn: I just thought of something sandy heh
<ferram4>
Then you have the gases for the exhaust. Then look up the heat released by the reaction, plug that in to get the temp for the exhaust.
<ferram4>
Then, calculate what happens if you expand it through an infinite nozzle. Boom, you have exhaust velocity and Isp.
<ferram4>
Simple.
<Pap>
I am always amazed when people come up for names for their craft, I have recycled Mars # and Ares # dozens of times
<Agathorn>
hehe we all got to the same place at the same time
<Agathorn>
not sure wtf it isn't on github though
<ferram4>
egg|zzz|egg, Also, the supersonic flow calculations get complicated by the fun of "solids and liquids in the exhaust" that can happen with lots of stuff.
<Agathorn>
seems odd for him to do it that way
<Pap>
Agathorn: is it on his Jenkins server that he uses?
<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: :D
<Agathorn>
beats me
<ferram4>
Like fuel-rich combustion with Methane, Kerosene, or solid sit.
<ferram4>
*shit
<Agathorn>
all his releases in the past have been via GitHub though
<NathanKell>
Hey Pap, also, I just realized I had uncommited stuff from 7 months ago (1940s Space Program) - the A-9 config for the A-4/V-2 engine, and a 4m guidance ring for the A-9/A-10 IRBM
<NathanKell>
gonna push those, they'd go in those really-early nodes I guess
<Pap>
lol
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vHcAI
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 9e23976 NathanKell: 1940s speculative stuff - A-9 config for the A-4/V-2 engine (using Hydyne, which is wrong but eh), and a 4m starting guidance unit.
<NathanKell>
Was quite funny to not see working dir clean when I opened the RO repo in sourcetree...
<NathanKell>
urff, also unpushed RP-0 stuff
<Pap>
And NathanKell this is why you are no longer allowed to persue things that are better for your personal life
<NathanKell>
:D :D :D
<Pap>
:)
<acc>
RO is a borg thing
<NathanKell>
wow, I have perforce muscle memory now so git seems weird
<NathanKell>
also also wut. For some reason perl isn't working right for me atm
<NathanKell>
even though it obviously was last time I ran the treemaker >.>
<xShadowx>
or DID it :P
<ferram4>
Dun dun DUN
<NathanKell>
dat feel when your treemaker written by pjf references a cpan lib whose author is...pjf
<xShadowx>
:D
<acc>
heh
<NathanKell>
there, fixed I think
<NathanKell>
Yup, fixed. Weird.
<acc>
will you stream when things work?
<NathanKell>
Anyway, I now have a working RP-0 dev environment. Pap, question. How about I just accept your PR into a ContractRebuild branch, and you work in that branch, since you have RP-0 perms?
<NathanKell>
That would mean I could also swap to that branch
<NathanKell>
acc: yeah
<acc>
nice
<Pap>
That'll work NathanKell let me get the Tech Tree stuff out of there first
<NathanKell>
ok!
<NathanKell>
can stick that in a tech tree branch :)
<acc>
uh, venus window in 3 months
<acc>
3.52 km/s transfer
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<NathanKell>
I _think_ I have a 1.2.2 install. Fingers crossed
<rsparkyc>
congrats!
<rsparkyc>
let me guess, you're going to go to dinner first
<NathanKell>
it's only 6:30...
<rsparkyc>
well, normally about the time i get on is the time you head out to eat
<NathanKell>
True!
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<NathanKell>
But hey, it's the weekend
<NathanKell>
let's see if it doesn't break \o/
<leudaimon>
hey, is there an issue with crossfeed and Interstages?
<Pap>
Using SSTU?
<rsparkyc>
do i have contract configurator installed wrong?
<rsparkyc>
cool, i'll pull that down after this launch
<Pap>
What part of career are you at?
Pap is now known as Pap|PickingUpFoodPregnantWife
<ferram4>
Something exploded?
<rsparkyc>
first launch :)
<rsparkyc>
just flew a V-2 over the florida peninsula
<rsparkyc>
and crashed into the water at over mach 2
<rsparkyc>
pap: you have some contract updates in your fork's master branch that aren't in Pap-Contracts
<rsparkyc>
unless your cherry picked those changes over
<rsparkyc>
ahh, maybe you did
<Agathorn>
hmm i'm not understanding the "ratio" values in the engine configs.. Looking at the x-405 it says LOX is 0.6126 and Kerosene is 0.3874. If I normalize that (1/0.3874) I get a ratio of 2.58:1 LOX/Kerosene. But the comments at the top of the config indicate a ratio of 2.2
<rsparkyc>
normally, listed ratios IRL are by weight
<rsparkyc>
in game, it's volume
<rsparkyc>
so multiply each by density?
<Agathorn>
is there an end to this particular rabbit hole? lol
<rsparkyc>
lol
<rsparkyc>
so Kerosene is about .81 g/ml
<rsparkyc>
LOX is 1.141 g/ml
<Agathorn>
I think I did my maths wrong then because that gives me a ratio of about 3.1
<rsparkyc>
1.141/.81 is 1.4
<Agathorn>
yeah I have .82 for Kerosene and 1.141 for lox
<rsparkyc>
pretty close, though that still doesn't seem to add up to what you're off by...
<rsparkyc>
you would have 1.141/.317
<rsparkyc>
yeah
<Agathorn>
yeah as in you see how it works out?
<Agathorn>
am I just doing it wrong?
<rsparkyc>
let me see...
<Agathorn>
1/0.317 = 3.15
<rsparkyc>
!c .6126*1.141
<Qboid>
0.6989766
<rsparkyc>
!c .3874*.82
<Qboid>
0.317668
<NathanKell>
so.... my monitor is dead
<NathanKell>
>.>
<Agathorn>
hmm looking back over my math my equations are definitely wrong but I dponm't know the right ones
<rsparkyc>
!c .698/.317
<Qboid>
2.20189274447949
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: ouch.. brail reading now?
<rsparkyc>
looks right: 2.2
<rsparkyc>
NathanKell: that sucks
<Agathorn>
rsparkyc: ok let me see if I can follow what you did
<rsparkyc>
oxidizer ratio * oxidizer density
<rsparkyc>
fuel ratio * fuel density
<rsparkyc>
divide
<rsparkyc>
had to do all of that in the EMRController
<rsparkyc>
so it's fresh on my mind
stratochief|away is now known as stratochief
<stratochief>
wow, that meeting went long. long enough for NK to show up, install RP-0, and brick a computer
<stratochief>
*slow clap*
<Agathorn>
the last part shows particular talent
<Rokker>
stratochief: finally
<rsparkyc>
lol
<Rokker>
stratochief: busy week for launches
<stratochief>
Rokker: so someone yelling "oi" told me :)
<TheKosmonaut>
It is refreshing to see GitHub emails from Nathan in my inbox
<rsparkyc>
lol
<stratochief>
3 chinese, 1 japanese? any new chinese launch vehicles, or same old?
<Rokker>
stratochief: No
<Rokker>
those are wrong
<rsparkyc>
and falcon9
<rsparkyc>
CRS 11
<stratochief>
also falcon, ESA
<Rokker>
stratochief: the Chinese ones are wrong
<Rokker>
stratochief: isro
<stratochief>
CRS goes the the ISS, correct? so, RTLS then? those are boring, low energy :P
<rsparkyc>
yeah
<rsparkyc>
not boring if you're at the launch site
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: lol, true. I might go south to see a falcon heavy launch, but I won't be at a launch site for any Falcon 9s
<rsparkyc>
i would LOVE to see a heavy launch
<rsparkyc>
prob about 8 hours away from me, so worth the drive
<Agathorn>
you just know the first one is going to be plagued by delays and scrubs though
<stratochief>
well, I'll loudly announce when/if I'm going, so there will plenty of time to form a space party :)
<rsparkyc>
7 hours, 35 mins
<stratochief>
yeah. I currently want to go to the second or third launch
<Agathorn>
yeah thats better :)
<Agathorn>
shame I don't live there anymore..would have been like 20 minute drive :)
<stratochief>
if they actually go ahead with a plan to strap humans aboard one, I'll probably aim for that one :)
<stratochief>
Agathorn: you used to live down on america's dangly bits, before moving to Vancouver?
<Agathorn>
yeah Merritt Island
<Agathorn>
even worked in the toureisty part of the space center for a couple years
<rsparkyc>
cool
<stratochief>
that seems like someone moving from Los Angeles moving to PEI. at least, distance-wise
<Agathorn>
PEI?
<stratochief>
Prince Edward Island. how dare you fforget a whole province, you impostor! :P
<Agathorn>
didn't forget it
<Agathorn>
never knew about it :D
<stratochief>
it holds 140,000 proud Canadians, more than I thought actually
<Agathorn>
only province I care about is British Columbia :)
<stratochief>
lol. what, too good for Trana or Montreal?
<Agathorn>
ok so I have a known tank volume, let's say 100 m^3 and a known ratio, say 2.2 - now I need to calculate how much of each F:O is in the tank
<Agathorn>
s/F:O/O:F
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: ok so I have a known tank volume, let's say 100 m^3 and a known ratio, say 2.2 - now I need to calculate how much of each O:F is in the tank
<stratochief>
1. is that a volume or mass ratio 2. how much in volume, or in mass?
<Agathorn>
umm..what I am calling volume is V=PIr^2h -- with r and h being in meters
<soundnfury>
yay, I can now join and leave RIS games from within KSP :)
<stratochief>
We choose to go the Moon, not because it is easy, but to prove that I'm better than my friends!
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<soundnfury>
yup, that's about the size of it :)
<stratochief>
Agathorn: so, you have a total volume, you know the volume ratio, and you want to find what portion of that volume is taken by each material?
<Agathorn>
stratochief: the term volume ratio may or may not be correct but i'm assuming it is? I know the mixture ratio of how much oxidizer to fuel
<Agathorn>
I'm thinking I just need to take the 1/ratio (1/2.2) then multiply that by the volume to get Oxidizer, then the remainign is fuel?
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<stratochief>
I don't recall of mixing ratios are in mass or volume units. So I guess mass, because that is why we use calc.xls to do that calc for us
<rsparkyc>
in game: volume
<rsparkyc>
EMRController: mass
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: right, but Agathorn is getting ratios from.. wiki?
<rsparkyc>
real world: mass
<Agathorn>
stratochief: I can do it either way as long as I know what i'm doing
<Agathorn>
stratochief: currently a mixture.. i'm aware they are in different units.. and multiplying them out by density
<soundnfury>
rsparkyc: and of course propellant chemists hate it either way, and want moles (or maybe λ)
<rsparkyc>
moles is close to mass i think
<rsparkyc>
oh, wait, no it's not
<rsparkyc>
…i think...
<stratochief>
Agathorn: right, but you need to know the units of the ratio you're starting with. I'll just shut up, since clearly I'm not helping, and I need to finish these meeting notes before bed
<rsparkyc>
moles is number of atoms or molicules?
<soundnfury>
rsparkyc: a kerosene molecule is a lot heavier than an O₂ molecule :)
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: yes :)
<soundnfury>
rsparkyc: number of molecules, in this context
<stratochief>
you can talk about either a mole of atoms, or a mole of molecules
<rsparkyc>
a mole is just a number i guess
<rsparkyc>
or a rodent
<soundnfury>
the chemist's mixture ratio is the ratio of numbers of molecules
* soundnfury
gives rsparkyc a mole of moles
<rsparkyc>
lol
<Agathorn>
stratochief: yeah I know I need to know the units, but I can work with either..problem is i'm apparently to stupid to even wiorek with a unitless volume ratio.. if I have a 2:1 ratio of something and 100 units of volume then that should mean I have what.. 75:25 units? no that't not right.. jesus I can't evne inuit the equation how the hell amd I goign to write one
<rsparkyc>
66:33
<rsparkyc>
so you have 2.2:1
<Agathorn>
right that looks better lol
<rsparkyc>
so add
<rsparkyc>
total is 3.2:1
<rsparkyc>
2.2/3.2 of one, 1/3.2 of the other
<rsparkyc>
then divid each by density to get volume
<rsparkyc>
s/divid/divide
<Qboid>
rsparkyc meant to say: then divide each by density to get volume
<Agathorn>
i'm unclear where the 3.2 came from
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: 2.2 + 1
<rsparkyc>
yeah, in your 2:1 example, i added the ratio parts
<Agathorn>
oh adding both parts together?
<rsparkyc>
and got a total of 3
<rsparkyc>
yep
<rsparkyc>
2.2 of one, 1 of the other
<rsparkyc>
total is 3.2
<lamont>
TIL: Oct 23rd is “mole day”
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: in a:b, proportion of a is a / (a + b)
<Agathorn>
gotcha
<rsparkyc>
^
<soundnfury>
lamont: mol mole, or mole mole?
<Agathorn>
we all know math has never been my strong point :(
<rsparkyc>
lol
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<Agathorn>
ok so as long as my units are consistant I think I have what I need
<Agathorn>
so in that case I can back out the mass with density, determine total volume, then multiple the density back to get my total propellant mass?
<NathanKell>
fiiiinally back
<NathanKell>
just to clarify, yes, MR is always mass
<NathanKell>
that's why for KSP we have to convert (because KSP)
<Pap>
<-- had nothing to do with breaking NathanKell's monitor...I think
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: so then does my second line sound right?
<NathanKell>
KSP 1.2.2 wot dun it
<NathanKell>
yes, all MRs from Bob's page are in mass ratios
<NathanKell>
you never touch density and volume at all unless you have to
<Pap>
rsparkyc: did you figure out what I did with the contracts? I don't think I changed much, did I?
<NathanKell>
I'm a bit confused by what you want Agathorn
<Agathorn>
well I have tank "space for gas" in m^3
<Agathorn>
so logically I thought I just determien how much of each fits, then use density of each toi determien total mass of the propellant?
<Agathorn>
iow if I have a micture ratio by mass.. that doesn't directly correlate to how much I can fit in X cubioc meters
<rsparkyc>
Pap: i didn't, i saw some contracts in your master that looked like they were added, but then i already have that in your other contract branch
<rsparkyc>
but im' not too worried about it
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: basically I have this: https://pastebin.com/RVcC8nKx which I use to compute the "volume" of the tank
<Agathorn>
Now step 2 in my mind, is determine how much Fuel and how muxh Oxidizer are in that tank volume
<KevinStarwaster>
Ok, WHY is MFT throwing exceptions on a property get?
<Agathorn>
then step 3 was ok now that I know how much of each fits, multiply by density of each to determine total propellant mass
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Um that's assuming common bulkhead?
<Agathorn>
well iots sort of abstract
<NathanKell>
(and a bulkhead of zero thickness)
<Agathorn>
just using an overal utilization mukltiplier
<rsparkyc>
Agathorn, i think that's right
<rsparkyc>
you may want to check out my EMRController code, i do a lot of that stuff if you want some sanity checking
<NathanKell>
much better to do it right the first time IMO :)
<NathanKell>
RF has lots of tech debt
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: define right?
<Agathorn>
You want me to figure out wall thicmness and dead air spaces?
<NathanKell>
consider the total stage length as engine height + >=1 capsule tanks, 1 for each propellant
<NathanKell>
unless common bulkhead, in which you treat them all as a single capsule tank
<Agathorn>
the latter is basicaklly what I am doing and the utilization % is to account for a varying wall thinkess
<Agathorn>
the former I could probably do except my brain is saying something about the chicken and the egg
<Agathorn>
so I need to walk through it I think
<Agathorn>
because I let the user set the total tank height - and from there I would need to calculate the inner tanks
<NathanKell>
tank height, or stage height?
<Agathorn>
presently tank height
<NathanKell>
so one for each tank?
<Agathorn>
engine height is a separate number
<NathanKell>
and you subtract domes from the given height?
<NathanKell>
or is that wall height?
<Agathorn>
in this respect "tank" is to mean the visdible outer tank
<NathanKell>
....but as we just discussed, that's >=1 tank, not == 1 tank
<NathanKell>
there may be stringers involved
<Agathorn>
yes but my point is I wan't planning on havign the user worry about the internal seperation
<Agathorn>
If I can calculate it out fine, bnut I will only have the one input height parameter
<Pap>
^ gotta leave something for the modders to create
<NathanKell>
In that case yes, some preset utilizations seem correct
<Agathorn>
that height was supposed to include the two domes.. but I ay have screwed that up in my math.. I think I excluded it
<NathanKell>
right, my point is it may include 4, and regardless they may be ellipsoid domes
<Agathorn>
well 2 right now since i'm only currently supporting biprop
<Agathorn>
is the choice of common or split bulkhead just down to thermals based on chosen propellant?
<NathanKell>
Common bulkhead significantly klowers stage mass
<NathanKell>
because (a) less wasted volume (you don't have to pay for those stringers *at all* and (b) 1 fewer dome section that you also don't have to pay for
<taniwha>
NathanKell: o/
<Agathorn>
right but doesn't common bulkhead have the downsaide of thermal heating?
<NathanKell>
yes
<NathanKell>
which is why S-II was a pain
<NathanKell>
o/ taniwha
<Agathorn>
in a common bulkhead you essentially have 3 half domes
<Agathorn>
when I said 2 I was talking the visible domes top and bottom of the overall stage tank and then using that utilization to cover dead space
<rsparkyc>
but the requirements dont
<Agathorn>
but
<Agathorn>
what I am debating is if it is worth exposing the bulkhead style to the user or not
<Pap>
Son of a damnit! Stop paying so much attention rsparkyc!
<rsparkyc>
ok
<rsparkyc>
hey Pap
<rsparkyc>
these contracts look great
<rsparkyc>
haven't found a single issue
<Pap>
I was orgininally going to require a bio sample, but I decided to leave it up to the player
<rsparkyc>
(better?)
<Pap>
lol!!!!!
<Agathorn>
what is the upside to letting the user change bulkhead style versus just assuming a common bulkhead at all times
<Pap>
I appreciate the feedback, I kid, I kid
<rsparkyc>
i know :)
<rsparkyc>
i'm also good with the sarcasm
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Because it's complex, expensive, and other than Atlas (which was _weird_, man) wasn't done until the mid 60s
<Pap>
Excellent
<NathanKell>
I mean, look at how long S-II delayed all of Saturn V
<Pap>
Also, the Atlas liked to blow up a lot in its early years
<rsparkyc>
NathanKell spouts historical facts like they're obvious to 5th graders :)
<Agathorn>
ok let me rephrase.. what is the gameplay benefit of exposing it versus simply balancing earlier rockets with a lower utilization %
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: tl;dr it's a _major_ choice in stage design, on par with propellant selection or engine selection
<NathanKell>
because it's a tech
<NathanKell>
it's not "you get +3% utilization" it's "you unlocked common bulkheads for non-cryo" and "for cryo"
<Agathorn>
once you have the tech to do a common bulkhead, wouldn't you pretty much always use it?
<NathanKell>
No
<NathanKell>
Doesn't matter much on first stage, save tons of money and engineering time and chance for failure
<NathanKell>
Cheap uppers where you just have two spherical tanks and some strutting
<NathanKell>
(and you can't really do it for Soviet style torus-sphere stages, AIUI)
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<Pap>
Updated rsparkyc, thanks
<NathanKell>
Welp, time to see if 1.2.2 can break 2 monitors at once
<rsparkyc>
Pap: no prob
<Agathorn>
how many monitors do you have lying around your house?!
<Agathorn>
I mean you already broke one
<Pap>
Agathorn: A bakers dozen
<Agathorn>
now you have two more?
<Agathorn>
:)
<NathanKell>
in one day I meant, whoops
<Agathorn>
ah ok :)
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: monitor broke?:( broke broke? or
<Agathorn>
to be fair I have 3 monitors in my house so I really shouldn't throw rocks.. no 4 monitors
<Agathorn>
forgot about my apple tb display .. so yeah I have four monitors lol
<Pap>
I have 3, plus 4 TV's which could all be used ICE
<xShadowx>
i got 2 monitors, the plasma tv doesnt count even though its connected to pc and i have no tv service :P
<Agathorn>
yeah i'm not counting TVs of which I actually only have one.. or 2 if you count the old dlp in storage because I can't find anyone who will just take it away from me :)
<xShadowx>
goodwill
<xShadowx>
or too old for them now o.O
<NathanKell>
Well, this one lasted almost 10 years, so it had a good run
<ferram4>
NathanKell, wasn't the pain with S-II also that at the time, it was the only place left where they could get the necessary performance because (IIRC) the LM had gotten a little chunkier than planned?
<NathanKell>
ah, no! 10 years and nearly 3 months!
<Pap>
Woah, what did you do?
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Sounds right, yeah. Can't get much from S-IC improvements
<NathanKell>
S-IVB has a poor PMF but I guess that was for various Reasons (tm) ?
<NathanKell>
(S-II has a really good one)
<xShadowx>
im still at 2 monitors :( new stand holds 3 (technically 6 but only usiong 1 arm set so 3) and im too lazy to go find a 3rd ;3
<ferram4>
Well, the S-IVB had to carry guidance for everything, plus fuel for 2 ullages, plus fuel for some fine tuning, plus structure for all the other stuff.
<Pap>
am checking rsparkyc, it definitely wasn't doing that for me
<xShadowx>
im want 3 but im half tempted to wait til im rich (laugh -.-) and get 2x 21:9 curved screens
<ferram4>
And S-II is a feat of "how did you screw up so much that you needed to do THIS to make up for it?!"
<NathanKell>
well, it works...
<Pap>
but...?
* xShadowx
drumrolls
<NathanKell>
but I have to eat shortly :(
<ferram4>
But it's expensive as hell.
<Pap>
lol, order in! 24 hour RO stream!
<xShadowx>
^
<NathanKell>
Heh
<NathanKell>
ferram4: fair point, knock two tonnes off for the IU and your PMF gets somewhat better (still sucky tho)
<Pap>
rsparkyc: I have good news and bad news
<rsparkyc>
go on
<Pap>
I was finished
<rsparkyc>
lol
<Pap>
The old contracts (some of them) merged with my batch of contracts in my conversion to a Branch
<Pap>
Will be fixed shortly
<rsparkyc>
cool
<NathanKell>
Think I'm just going to verify 1.2.2 tonight (and try to get the CBK changes in) and then tomorrow start a career
<stratochief>
yeah, I'm not sure how well the S-IVb PMF compares, if you remove the giant amaze-balls computer from it's dry mass
<stratochief>
Monday is always the right day to start a career :P
<stratochief>
still, the S-IVb was ready well before the other saturn v stages were. I'm curious how much mass they could have cut from it, if it really mattered (without getting S-II class expensive)
<stratochief>
athough with lessons learned on making the S-ii the first time, I'm curious how much more cheaply a second catch of Saturn V's could have been
<stratochief>
TL;DR spray that insulation in
<NathanKell>
hehe
<NathanKell>
ah, hmm. Just realized I guess I should save the launchpad stuff for when we do the tech tree since it'll break existing careers. Pap / stratochief
<Pap>
rsparkyc: Updated and tested, works on my machine now. Delete the whole Contracts folder and replace it
<stratochief>
NathanKell: is there any way the launchpad could be done in a way that doesn't break saves? like, mapping the old levels to new ones? naive coding request?
<Pap>
NathanKell: you will also want to update the contracts before starting your career
<NathanKell>
Pap: Yes, I'm on your branch
<stratochief>
g'nite!
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<NathanKell>
stratochief: I mean, I could write a plugin
<NathanKell>
but I don't think it's worth it
<NathanKell>
it'd need to preprocess save files and convert old pad levels to new levels
<NathanKell>
night stratosleep!
<rsparkyc>
pap: trying now
<NathanKell>
nomz, o/
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<rsparkyc>
Pap: much better. LifeSupportStation is complaining for me, and something doesn't like the BreakSoundBarrier contract
<KevinStarwaster>
so are there any contracts that result in entire craft/stations being spawned? is that supported without additional coding?
<rsparkyc>
i don't think that's doable without any additional mods
<Pap>
rsparkyc: do you not play with TAC Life Support?
<rsparkyc>
no, i play with it
<Pap>
KevinStarwaster: you can actually do that without any additional coding in Contract Configurator, you just need to have the .CRAFT file available with all of the parts installed
<KevinStarwaster>
hmm
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<NathanKell>
o/
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<Pap>
NathanKell|Twitch: whenever you are done streaming, here is the framework of a possible tree layout. Each node is a potential node and we can use much smaller tech values in order to make more things open instead of waiting long periods of time
<Pap>
Obviosuly, we will not be usng all 850+ nodes, but we can pick whichever years we find to be important for each "tech lane"
<Pap>
All of the "tech lanes" can also be changed / fixed as well obviously
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<Theysen>
from the RO thread: Is their a re scale factor for manned parts, I want to scale MKS up to RO sized parts but I need a size to edit the files
<Theysen>
Y THO
<Theysen>
fail, wrong post
<Theysen>
can't copy paste for whatever reason.. tl;dr: he wants to scale back all parts RO makes bigger because it isn't kerbal in real scales ...
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<Sigma88>
if anyone other than NathanKell|AWAY is interested in the Kopernicus side of RSS, this might interest you
<Sigma88>
Kopernicus/Kopernicus/#177
<Qboid>
[#177] title: cbNameLater | I had some time to play around with displayName and I came to the conclusion that it can completely replace cbNameLater.... | https://github.com/Kopernicus/Kopernicus/issues/177
<Qboid>
HypergolicSkunk: Index was outside the bounds of the array.
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<HypergolicSkunk>
!tell rsparkyc would it make sense to enable mid-to-late-tech procedural avionics to come equipped with (configurable) solar panels/antennae/RCS thrusters? is this even possible? my end-goal is to have the smallest part-count possible for when I send a batch of comsats to the Moon or to another planet, while not wanting to launch once for each sat.
<Qboid>
HypergolicSkunk: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Agathorn>
HypergolicSkunk: unless KSP has changed I think the problem with doing what you ask is you can't dynamically add or remove those modules on the part. Shadowmage looked into it for SSTU and had issues.
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<xShadowx>
? you can add/remove partmodules on parts
<HypergolicSkunk>
Agathorn: ah, I understand. if not dynamic, maybe presets could be done? at least for the solar panels.. every bit helps when you're trying to send six comsats very far away on the same rocket :P
<Agathorn>
well without being able to dynamically add or remove the modules the only way to do it is to have multiple physical parts that already have every combination of the extras on it which bloats the parts bin
<Agathorn>
That was a year or so ago though so maybe Shadowmage figured it out since then *shrug*
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<Agathorn>
hmm one workaround might be to make them always have the modules but just change the values inside them and if you choose not to put say an antenna on it, then the antenna value is just 0 but technically still present
<xShadowx>
or just add/remove the modules >.>
<Agathorn>
though that might look ugly to players as they would see the modules as being there
<acc>
hey
<Agathorn>
xShadowx: didn't read up did you
<Agathorn>
as I stated initially, Shadowmage ran into problems in SSTU with trying to dynamically add and remove the modules
<Agathorn>
KSP didn't like it
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: partmodules?
<Agathorn>
I know it sounds silly and it might have only been SPECIFIC part modules.. I know solar panels was one
<xShadowx>
you can add/remove partmodules anytime, the remove part is just trickier if other modules manage to ref it at startup and you cant really go cleaning them up
<Agathorn>
just telling you what he said
<Agathorn>
I was making that satellite bus for him and I wanted the solar panels to be an optional thing and he saiod he had problems with adding and removine the solar panel part module in code.. had tried it in the past and it didn't work right
<Agathorn>
*shrug*
<Agathorn>
ok so I re-read what he had sent me and everythign I said was wrong :D
<Agathorn>
so ignore it
<xShadowx>
for examples see any mod that used to (and hasnt yet updated away from yet) add partmodules to kerbals, LS mods/KIS for example ;3
<xShadowx>
ah heh
<Agathorn>
he was talking about the fact that SSTU itself didn't have the fiunctionality but that he was going to be adding it in the future
<Agathorn>
anyway off to work
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<Theysen>
bye
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<KevinStarwaster>
how is it possible for game events to be called on a PartModule for which OnStart hasn't (apparently) even been called on yet?
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<Agathorn>
KevinStarwaster: In Unity the Start gets called immediately (or next frame) when the MB or GO is activated..presumably KSP will also call the OnStart as well
<xShadowx>
add to the gameevent during onload?
<xShadowx>
or onawake :|
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<Agathorn>
like I said OnStart should work fine
<Agathorn>
pushing things into other areas to try and work around things is what often causes the problems in the first place
<Agathorn>
"Nasa admits its Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter collided with a UFO - but aliens were NOT to blame" these people crack me up
<xShadowx>
everytime people hear UFO they think aliens >.>
<xShadowx>
its annoying
<Agathorn>
actually depending on how you parse that headline it could be 100% correct
<Agathorn>
you could take it to mean exactly what you just said
<Agathorn>
though not sure an asteroid qualifies as either "uniditified" or "flying"
<Agathorn>
and I refuse to click the link to see what they say..not giving them traffic lol
<KevinStarwaster>
The game event is OnVesselModified... and it's happening when something is destroyed and maybe when it's decoupled. I'm not sure of that last part yet.
<KevinStarwaster>
agathorn: even so, the part already existed for quite awhile and I'm not aware of modules being destroyed or otherwise reinitialized when vehicles are altered. So all its code should already be fully initialized by then
<Agathorn>
KevinStarwaster: ahh sorry misunderstand where you were going there.. you have modules that should be dead yet are still receiving messages? Are they your modules? Did you remove your callbacks from the delagate? or is this using UnityEvents?
<xShadowx>
when is it happening? launchpad + staging to start engines + launchclamps letting go?
<Agathorn>
UnitEvents is *supposed* to be smart enough to not try and call an event on an object that has been destroyed (object destroyed in programming terms, not game) but Delegates aren't so smart
<KevinStarwaster>
that's an interesting question. AFAIK they are not parts that were destroyed so things SHOULD still be active on them.... but I can't say for sure that they are
<KevinStarwaster>
taniwha WHY do we have unsafe getters and setters in FuelTank? It's kinda screwing me over here
<Agathorn>
That's why
<KevinStarwaster>
basically, I've got MFT trying to call amount on its own tanks but getting an error thrown in amount getter because it's doing a check to see if its MFT module is null and it's throwing.
<KevinStarwaster>
There's gotta be a better way to handle that
<KevinStarwaster>
I guess he's not around :/
<KevinStarwaster>
watching my mobile base cruising along at 25m/s on the Mun (10x Kerbol) and its wheels keep leaving the ground :P
<KevinStarwaster>
what can go wrong?
<Theysen>
you too like to live dangerously? :^)
<KevinStarwaster>
heheh
<Theysen>
stock wheels or Shadowmages's?
<KevinStarwaster>
actually not sure. I THINK it's stock. It's the Lynx rover wheels. Pretty sure they're stock
<KevinStarwaster>
I HAVE Shadowmage's because, tank treads.
<Theysen>
Ah I mean is general wheel overhaul
<Theysen>
KSPWheel or so
<KevinStarwaster>
yeah, think it's just stock
<KevinStarwaster>
can his wheel plugin be used on stock wheel parts? Just replace it?
<KevinStarwaster>
err I mean replace the stock module\
<Theysen>
IIRC yes it adds a whole bunch of new options and different physic module
<KevinStarwaster>
ugh, 30 minutes away from base... so tedious. And it means I'll have to leave MJ's rover autopilot to its own devices
<KevinStarwaster>
I wonder if Bon Voyage can help?
<Theysen>
VesselMover
<Theysen>
and be done with it
<KevinStarwaster>
no, don't want to just teleport around
* Theysen
needs to look up what Bon Voyage is about
* Theysen
likes what he sees
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<KevinStarwaster>
crap MJ just flipped my rover
<KevinStarwaster>
and it's like a goddamn turtle; it's on its back and can't get up
<KevinStarwaster>
on the plus side it helped me get a little more data on my MFT issue... might just possibly be a race condition where an event is getting called on a module that's on its way out. Maybe need some OnDestroyed action to clean up here.
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<KevinStarwaster>
theysen ugh it's a part you have to put on the rover... that doesn't help my current situation. I wonder if it's amenable to being added, like to the rover's cockpit
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* CobaltWolf
yawns
<CobaltWolf>
o/
<Theysen>
shouldn't you howl
<Theysen>
bad doge
<Theysen>
o/
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<CobaltWolf>
not when I've just gotten to the lab
<CobaltWolf>
puppers yawn too :P
<KevinStarwaster>
CobaltWolf: Time to do Science?
<CobaltWolf>
computer lab, working on getting some 3D animation stuff rendering so I can tab over to a paper I need to finish
<KevinStarwaster>
ah yes, BonVOyage works just fine in cockpits and there's even an existing patch for it... let's try this
<CobaltWolf>
Is the E-1 represented in RO at all?
<KevinStarwaster>
Disappointing. BV refuses to engage because my power production is too low? But I have plenty of battery power even if I didn't, just DRIVE until they run out. wtf man
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<soundnfury>
basic RIS functionality is now implemented :)
<Probus>
Random Incredible Systems?
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<KevinStarwaster>
Either that or Rudely Implemented Stuff
<KevinStarwaster>
what was the other background driving rover plugin? anyone know?
<KevinStarwaster>
guess I'm just going to have to hope that Mj doesn't wreck my brand new over too badly.
<KevinStarwaster>
oh SHIT. MJ just drove right OVER one of those seams in the terrain. Took about 10 years right off of my life
<Probus>
lol
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<xShadowx>
KevinStarwaster: plugin uh burn with me? unless its just rockets, never used :| dunno
<KevinStarwaster>
think it's just rockets
<KevinStarwaster>
right now I dont need that though I just need a defibrillator
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<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: yes the E-1 is in RO.. It is one of the engines I added in fact. Fills a good hole in progression
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: I was wondering..would you perhaps have any models of early space hardware, engines tanks, probes - mainly looking at say R7 sputnik, Juno, and Vanguard - that you would let me use in my game strictly for prototyping purposes?
<CobaltWolf>
@Agathorn of course. I have.... Juno (all versions? :P ) and Vanguard. I don't have Sputnik or R7 but I can ask Beale for his for you. I have Sputnik 3 tho
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: do you know where it is in the RO Github?
<CobaltWolf>
ohhhhh I was looking in the Parts folder
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: as for the models thanks! Right now my focus is on implemnting systems using the Vanguard as a prototype, so if I could get that it would be great. What format do you have the files in?
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: I have Vanguard split up (the way it is in BDB) in .dae files, but other people have had issues opening them since Maya's .dae exporter is buggy.
<Agathorn>
Can you export them as FBX?
<CobaltWolf>
Yes. I can do that tonight for you or is that too late..?
<Agathorn>
no thats perfectly fine no rush.. I probably won't be in a position to use themk for some time still
<CobaltWolf>
ok no problem
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] PhineasFreak opened pull request #1658: Shielded PP tank fix (master...RO-PP-Shielded-Fix) https://git.io/vHWTg
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<NathanKell>
o/
<CobaltWolf>
ayo
* HypergolicSkunk
bows
<CobaltWolf>
oh, Nathan i got your email but forgot to reply haha
<NathanKell>
no worries :)
<Agathorn>
hey
<NathanKell>
Seems like he did too :P
<NathanKell>
well, I'll kick him again next scrum or something :D
* Agathorn
shakes his fist at Maya
<Agathorn>
seems half my day lately is figuring out why Maya isn't doing what it should be doing
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: what're you trying to do with it?
<CobaltWolf>
NathanKell: sure haha, thanks!
<Agathorn>
I have a script that imports a maya file into the scene, iterates through the nodes for some information, then deletes the imported nodes
<Agathorn>
problem is occosionally it just stops
<Agathorn>
no error, just stops in the middle like it got tired :)
<Agathorn>
How many people have electric pumps lying around the house?
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<CobaltWolf>
I mean, me but
<Probus>
lol
<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
got 4 of them?
<Agathorn>
People with an Aquarium maybe but still
<CobaltWolf>
No. One larger one. Portable bilge pump.
<Probus>
Can't wait until he gets to "more energetic" fuels.
<Probus>
Because everyone has liquid oxygen lying around. :)
<Agathorn>
what is this..so far its just a train wreck
<CobaltWolf>
idk, googling the ISP doesn't get me anything
<Pap>
o/ all
<CobaltWolf>
heyo
<Agathorn>
hey
<Pap>
Did I read in backchat that you are making an E-1 cobalt?
<Agathorn>
Probus: sorry can't watch this crappy video anymore
<Agathorn>
seriously I don't know what he is doing but so far it seems like he could hve goten better perofrmance out of a simply pressure stream from mentos and coke
<CobaltWolf>
@Pap yeah it's been on the roadmap forever. I don't have very much visual reference though... TimothyC was able to find some info for me and it appears that it was, quite literally, a scaled up SD-3
<CobaltWolf>
Ok here
<Pap>
Cobalt, that is the model that agathorn duplicated, but it would be great with a professional touch
<Agathorn>
only thing not there I guess is the thrust structure
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: Yeah I know... ugh it just doesn't feel like enough to go on, but I'll have to make due
<Agathorn>
well its nver enough to go on lol
<Agathorn>
especially with these things
<CobaltWolf>
Yeah. All the fun stuff is hard to find info for
<NathanKell>
ooh, neat, hadn't seen that pdf
<CobaltWolf>
yeah it's interesting
<NathanKell>
I recall that Boeing's Dynasoar submission was teamed with another LV maker, and the USAF selected their glider but Martin's booster, so I guess this is speccing out the alternate SLS candidates?
<Pap>
o/ NathanKell
<CobaltWolf>
It's no SLS, this is... idk. Something different
<NathanKell>
I mean the SLS specification, not the LV series we know as (first) SLS
<NathanKell>
i.e. "what's gonna lift blue payloads in the 60s"
<NathanKell>
CobaltWolf: That was USAF's preferred design to meet the spec, hence it being called that
<CobaltWolf>
@NathanKell that was dug up by Ryan over at AlternateWars
<NathanKell>
but they went with Titan III
<CobaltWolf>
my 'head researcher' knows him personally I guess
<NathanKell>
ah awesome!
<NathanKell>
used that site a ton :)
<Agathorn>
yeah that site has some awesoem stuff on it
<Agathorn>
sometimes some very nice diagrams that you can't get elsewhere
<CobaltWolf>
They specifically mention two E-1s being used. I wonder if E of Pi knew that when he designed the Minerva for Kolyma's Shadow. When I was talking to him about it the other day he sounded like he just wanted to find a way to preserve the E-1. He might not have even known
<NathanKell>
He might well not have. I wasn't aware of uses beyond it being a Titan backup
<NathanKell>
(and of course the Juno V / Saturn I case)
<CobaltWolf>
Since Minerva core is based on 2x E-1 and then 4x LRBs
<CobaltWolf>
which is... jesus christ actually
<CobaltWolf>
I think he may have severely over thrusted that
<NathanKell>
The Minerva 1 he sure did
<NathanKell>
the one with LRBs, it's about right IIRC
<NathanKell>
I ran the numbers when nixonshead published
<CobaltWolf>
oh that's right, you read all those. i see your old comments when I read through the threads
<NathanKell>
:D
<CobaltWolf>
it's 6x E-1 vs 4x that you'd get from the Saturn 1 with them
<NathanKell>
yeah, and the core isn't stretched enough either
<NathanKell>
because it has to work with 2x LRB
<Agathorn>
In my KSP campaign I used the crap out of the E-1
<Agathorn>
such a solid engine
<Pap>
Agathorn I am using it as my primary engine. Limiting myself up to 6x, then I will move up to a new engine
<CobaltWolf>
The other day we were talking about what if Sputnik still happens to light a fire under the US, but there's no moon announcement (meaning you start with something kinda Apollo Block 3-ish, and the original Saturn 1, and use those for station type stuff in the late 70s before going to the moon later on)
<Pap>
It literally launches everyone of my spacecraft
<CobaltWolf>
Since I was unhappy with how depressing Kolyma's turned out
<CobaltWolf>
so you'd still need NASA, and still need the US to get their butts in gear... we decided that if Saturn 1 would have been ready to start test flights in 60, and maybe you have Shepard first to space but not first to orbit...
<CobaltWolf>
and then I said "well if you want to do that, you could maybe shift the development of cryogens forward (back?) a year or two by going with the LR-87-LH2 instead of the RL-10?" And we kinda sketched out this thing that would be 1x LR-87-LH2 on a modestly stretched S-IV stage, which can easily orbit something Apollo Block 3 sized though not a Block 2.
<CobaltWolf>
and then I said something about maybe getting E-1 instead of H-1 and I think I had to go at that point
<CobaltWolf>
Err, that was a conversation with E of Pi
<CobaltWolf>
Pap: Agathorn yeah I have a WIP model for it. I don't know how soon I can get it out, there's always so much stuff pulling me around especially these days
<NathanKell>
CobaltWolf: Interesting, that's pretty much exactly what I did on my US Engines playthrough :]
<NathanKell>
4x E-1, 1x LR87LH2
<CobaltWolf>
it's just so sexy
<NathanKell>
yeah
<CobaltWolf>
ofc then I need to make a dedicated mount for the E-1s, the upper stage can just use a tweakscaled down version of the S-IVB engine mount
<NathanKell>
yeah
<CobaltWolf>
The thing I hate about reading Astronautix is he drinks the koolaid of whatever he's writing about. "this would have been so much better than real life! We would have had today's capabilities in 1962!". Like... yeah... All proposed systems *sound* good on paper. Almost never work as well by the time you're bending metal
<NathanKell>
yes, his axe is larger than some countries, and the grinding can be heard on the moon.
<NathanKell>
Well, it's not that he drinks the koolaid of _whatever_ he's writing about, just whatever isn't NASA :P
<CobaltWolf>
Yeah I guess
<CobaltWolf>
Yeah that sounds right, I was having trouble pinning it down
<NathanKell>
80s-90s nuSpace
<NathanKell>
it's a trope
<CobaltWolf>
nuSpace?
<KevinStarwaster>
CobaltWolf That's what I don't like about Interstellar Extended actually... they see all these neat proposals (PROPOSALS people) that sound great so they codify them and partify them and argue that they should be supported by everyone else (like Real Fuels)
<NathanKell>
the private space stuff that started in the 80s, like Conestoga, roton, all that stuff
<NathanKell>
Often libertarian
<NathanKell>
often linked to the harder SF crowd of the time (Niven, Pournelle)
<CobaltWolf>
KevinStarwaster: I spend a lot of time with Nertea on my Discord and he has some not-so-kind words to say about FreeThinker haha. About the same thing (other mods bending to all meet his needs, which often aren't in line with others)
<Agathorn>
It is an interestign question though..how do you take these proposed designs with numbers and tune them to be more "real"
<Agathorn>
I think a lot of people use the E-1 for example because I used its proposed numbers and it may in fact be overpowered
<NathanKell>
Ok, if FreeThinker is _not_ on your discord that's a recommendation :D
<CobaltWolf>
off the cuff, I'd say subtract 20% performance and add 50% to the cost
<CobaltWolf>
all y'all should come on the Discord. There's a couple of kids we're considering kicking and one very angry Brazilian nationalist, but overall it's chill
<ferram4>
On the other hand, you get something like the M-1, where in testing it exceeds its thrust targets.
<NathanKell>
I wasn't aware Felipe was a nationalist :P
<Theysen>
lol
<NathanKell>
probably tets tho
<Theysen>
I like discord because you can so quickly share images and stuff
<ferram4>
That wouldn't surprise me.
<CobaltWolf>
Naw, JoseEduardo. He's in the extreme upper right of the political compass but we made a containment channel (#politics) that we all muted.
<NathanKell>
ohhhhhhh him
<NathanKell>
Good gracious yes
<NathanKell>
he was in RO some
<CobaltWolf>
NathanKell: I picked up on his attitude reading the pages related to DynaSoar, the original SLS, stuff like that.
<CobaltWolf>
lol
<NathanKell>
Yep, also look at the Apollo studies docs for "OMG this would have been perfect except for Le NASA"
<NathanKell>
(D3, Model 410, etc)
<Theysen>
stratochief configured many of the SSTU stuff with him back in tghe days :D
<NathanKell>
^
<NathanKell>
right, that
<CobaltWolf>
Yeah we were doing that the other day when we were talking about that alternate history thing
<Theysen>
he made 18x cluster for sstu
<Theysen>
pretty fun
<NathanKell>
brb gotta configure me some linux
<Agathorn>
I like Discord in general as a tool from the few times i've used it
<CobaltWolf>
That's why I keep him around, he can be helpful and downright pleasant whenever he doesn't start on political stuff. If he wasn't I'd have kicked him. It's just hard to deal with, since statements that aren't even remotely political will get twisted through his extreme lens he views the world through
<CobaltWolf>
and next thing you know it's 'commies' this and 'george soros' that
<CobaltWolf>
But yeah, there's that for all y'all, if you ever want to chill with us > https://discord.gg/xcA5kyG
<CobaltWolf>
there's fairly regular geeky discussion about old rocketry stuff
<Agathorn>
"brb" and "configure linux" don't really belong in the same sentence
<NathanKell>
ok ok I lurk ONE MORE place...
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: actually gotta save it til after lunch
<CobaltWolf>
my grub file is still messed up from the time I installed it... I need to just wipe my desktop anyways
<Theysen>
thats what they all say
<NathanKell>
I'm setting up a MythTV dvr for Michelle
<NathanKell>
(cuz she cares about the TVs)
<NathanKell>
back in an hour or two o/
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<Agathorn>
Don't you have today off NathanKell|AFK .. bah
<KevinStarwaster>
I had the bright idea to stick the CoMShifter onto the lynx rover parts to move their CoM slightly downwards towards their base where it should be heavier. SHould make them a wee bit more stable
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<KevinStarwaster>
you know what sucks about the moon... is that the horizon or the edge of a crater approaching?
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<riocrokite>
zoom out and you'll see :P
<riocrokite>
and would suggest to use rcs with prograde sas settings to stabilize longer rover jumps KevinStarwaster :)
<KevinStarwaster>
riocrokite and that's an excellent suggestion for the NEXT rover version! Unfortunately the rover tooling around the lunar landscape has no such thing
<riocrokite>
drove several vehicles for a long time using burn together mod
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<xShadowx>
sneaky one he is.....
<KevinStarwaster>
goddamit. All this time spent driving to the base and I forgot to check on the during construction if the ground height differences were close enough to dock
<KevinStarwaster>
They are not.
<KevinStarwaster>
so I cannot dock my rover to the base with its life replenishing oxygen
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<KevinStarwaster>
of course I can disemebark and board the base so my dudes aren't gonna die
<xShadowx>
KAS hose?
<KevinStarwaster>
not dying is definitely a plus
<KevinStarwaster>
I dont use KAS
<KevinStarwaster>
the maintainer has made questionable life choices in the past year with regards to mod compatibility and blamestorming other mods when compatibility issues arise
<xShadowx>
eva resource xfer?
<KevinStarwaster>
some of his coding practices regarding other mods is what I regard as hostile coding
<xShadowx>
be a little work but
<KevinStarwaster>
I'm using Ioncross... Kerbals don't really have actual O2 resources. It's virtual.
<KevinStarwaster>
they take it out of the vessel and put it back in but it doesn't exist in between
<KevinStarwaster>
what's sad is that it's just a few centimeters clearance
<KevinStarwaster>
I keep trying to smash the ports together, braking at the last moment to try to dip the rover's ass enough to dock
<KevinStarwaster>
AND I JUST SOLVED IT
<KevinStarwaster>
god DAMN I am a genius
<xShadowx>
drive over a kerbal to prop up a wheel and this the rover or w/e?
<KevinStarwaster>
it's a Lynx rover and it's got the little bellows joint
<xShadowx>
:P
<KevinStarwaster>
so I just changed the damping setting and suddenly BOOM! DOCKED.
<xShadowx>
coulda popped a tire too
<xShadowx>
i was thinkin you had to go higher
<riocrokite>
or try to dock on uneven terrain
<xShadowx>
so many times i miscalc heights (before getting into habbit of local test area around ksc) and try to pop a tire to fix it lol
<riocrokite>
lofi kerbal foundries had awesome tracks and wheels so you could lower everything to the same level
<riocrokite>
should be possible with new version however haven't checked it
<Agathorn>
!tell NathanKell any thoughts on calculating out a tank's dry (structural) mass based on dimensions, and style. And possibly tech level of material science?
<Qboid>
Agathorn: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<KevinStarwaster>
does that work? popping the tire?
<Agathorn>
almost the same dry mass as the first stage
<Agathorn>
considerably less volume
<Agathorn>
let me try to get some more data points in here
<Agathorn>
but avionics is something I forgot to consider
<ferram4>
Agathorn, try to use larger stages. Small stages generally hit a point where they can't get much lighter due to either manufacturing limits or tryin to prevent things from buckling.
<ferram4>
I expect that your actual correlation will fall somewhere between surface area and volume, and likely should have some component that increases the mass significantly for narrow as hell stages.
<Agathorn>
due to reinforcements?
<Agathorn>
or rather just a larger fraction going to strutural components
<ferram4>
Yes.
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<Agathorn>
wonder how thick tank walls tend to be
<Agathorn>
haven't really seen that information
<Agathorn>
"
<Agathorn>
The Super Light-Weight Tank (SLWT) used in the majority of Shuttle missions has a fairly simple basic structure. In the barrel sections, the innermost layer is approx 0.1" thickness of Al-Li alloy. The thickness varies along the length of the tank due to varying hydrostatic loads. Outside this there is approx 0.5" of epoxy and then ~2" of foam insulation.
<Agathorn>
0.1" of metal
<Agathorn>
that sounds insanely thin to me
<Agathorn>
Old school Atlas -- 0.1 to 0.4 inches (2.5 to 10 mm) thick -- so, actually, similar to the metal portion of the shuttle ET.
<Agathorn>
Saturn V's 1st stage tanks varied in thickness from 0.170"-0.254" (4.32 to 6.45 mm).
<Agathorn>
i'm just shocked.. I really thgouth these things were like several inches thick
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<Agathorn>
ferram4: yeah starting to see a patterm with Vanguard 2nd stage and Redstone as outliers
<Agathorn>
Vanguard 1st, Titan I 1st and 2nd and Titan II 1st and 2nd though show very similiar mass / surface area numbers
<Agathorn>
around 13-17 kg per
<Agathorn>
per..square meter I guess would be what surface area is?
<ferram4>
It should be m^2, yes.
<ferram4>
Agathorn, sorry, was eating
<Agathorn>
no worries :(
<Agathorn>
err :)
<Agathorn>
I'm at work anyway so my chatting is sporadic
<ferram4>
Agathorn, also, FWIW, keep in mind that metal is actually really strong and most of what you need it for is to prevent bending and deflections, which can cause the stresses to increase drastically.
<ferram4>
That's why they don't need much. Axial and radial loads only are easy enough to handle. Bending though, that'll tear things apart.
<ferram4>
Hence why rockets disintegrate when they go sideways.
<Agathorn>
I should probably run the numbers on more modern day rockets and see if the mass per squard meter drops
<Agathorn>
presumably newer technology and what not could allow that
<Agathorn>
or heck maybe it gets worse because of heavier payloads
<ferram4>
Agathorn, so, just as an example. I ran a calculation on the thickest part of the S-IC tanks.
<ferram4>
At 6.45mm thickness and a 10m diameter, that's ~0.4 m^2 of area that's holding up the rocket.
<ferram4>
Assuming this is only holding the mass of everything above the first stage, that's approximately 670,000 kg
<ferram4>
That puts an average pure compressive stress of 1.67 MPa in the tank structure.
<ferram4>
Assuming it has a yield strength similar to non-heat treated 2024 aluminum (~76 MPa), that gives a factor of safety of 45 for pure compressive stress.
<ferram4>
Which is ludicrous, because that won't be the failure mode there.
<Agathorn>
wow
<ferram4>
It's more likely to be buckling, and calculating that is difficult considering the geometry.
<ferram4>
Rather short, stubby tanks under buckling is more difficult to handle.
<ferram4>
That or bending loads, which are also possible.
<ferram4>
Oh, no, I'm sorry. Screwed up the area calc. So it should be ~0.2 m^2 area, with a compressive stress of 3.36 MPa, and a factor of safety of ~22.
<ferram4>
Agathorn, still, ludicriously high safety factor for aerospace. It's generally closer to 1.5 for whatever is the limiting factor.
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] Jerre122 opened pull request #1659: Bluedog Design Bureau: update for Diamant A & B first stages + clamps (master...master) https://git.io/vHWWw
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<KevinStarwaster>
are there any really decent NTR parts around that are current?
<Pap>
NTR?
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<Agathorn>
Nuclear <mumble> Rocket?
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<Pap>
I think Nertea has a good Nuclear Engine mod, but it isn't RO configured