<Pap>
Stratochief, as an Italian, the trick is to sautée the garlic in olive oil prior to adding the rest of the gravy to it
<jclishman>
can you increase the rated burn time by getting more flight data?
<Pap>
No jc
<jclishman>
ah
<soundnfury>
acc: \o/
<soundnfury>
rounding sockets!
<soundnfury>
Pap: olive oil sucks, use crisp'n'dry instead
<soundnfury>
(other rapeseed oil brands are available)
<Rokker>
jclishman: install filter extensions
<Rokker>
u bish
<jclishman>
what is it
<soundnfury>
Rokker: no, don't
<Rokker>
soundnfury: why
<soundnfury>
jclishman: I usually fly new stages for the first time with a lead-ballast boilerplate payload, get some sweet data that way (also test the LV design)
<Rokker>
Pap: question
<soundnfury>
Rokker: because it's not actually useful and it gets in the way
<soundnfury>
if you've played as much RO as I have, you know where to find all the parts _anyway_ ;)
<Pap>
Yes rokker
<HypergolicSkunk>
I just installed Real Launch Sites + Kerbal Constructs, and it looks like finally there is a proper runway to land on <3 if only one could take off new craft from there as well..
<Rokker>
Pap: why is the RD-103 unlocked in the first node
<Rokker>
it should be in the first engine branch
<jclishman>
So, rated burn time was 4 minutes. But thesse went for ~6 minutes without complaining
<Rokker>
u got lucky
<soundnfury>
jclishman: you got... what Rokker said
<Agathorn>
sounds like you have a broken engine config
<Rokker>
or that
<soundnfury>
when you are lulled into a false sense of security, then Agathorn will strike! and lo, he will destroy all that you held dear, and also your satellite
<Agathorn>
no middle click info, no R&D option, and 50% past burn time? Something definitely sounds wrong
<jclishman>
"Burn through penalty is 100 at 365 seconds" what's this mean?
<Agathorn>
do you have the TF StockConfig installed?
<jclishman>
how to check?
<soundnfury>
jclishman: the MTBF starts dropping after you pass the rated burn time
<jclishman>
weird, I also have no testflight button in the VAB
<soundnfury>
when it reaches that point (6min 5sec) it's so short that failure should have already happened
<Agathorn>
jclishman: if you go into GameData/TestFlight is there a Config folder?
<Agathorn>
not supposed to be a button in the VAB
<Agathorn>
only in Flight and SpaceCenter scenes
<jclishman>
Agathorn: config folder is empty
<soundnfury>
jclishman: well you clearly have the TF dll, or you wouldn't get that "burn through penalty" bit in partinfo
<Pap>
Rokker that is a mistake on my part, but if I get rid of tier 1 it will stay there
<Agathorn>
and that burnthrough info is noted as being for the specific config you are using?
<jclishman>
yes
<Agathorn>
very odd
<jclishman>
should I try reinstalling the mod?
<Agathorn>
with the part on the rocket in the VAB, if you mouse over the part does it pop up any tooltip?
<jclishman>
no
<Agathorn>
right click the engine, go to Engine GUI
<Agathorn>
mouse over the config in the list - does a tooltip pop up?
<jclishman>
yep
<Agathorn>
can you right click the engine and take a screenshot of the context menu?
<soundnfury>
jclishman: I assume you've checked in your logs for relevant breakceptions?
<soundnfury>
jclishman: exception. I was being poetic
<jclishman>
ah
<Agathorn>
huh the agenas shoudl be good.. they were one of my go to engines in the past
<jclishman>
wow this is a big log file
<Agathorn>
you shoudl definitely be seeing a tooltip when you mouse over the engine and middle click shoudl open info.. that you aren't seeing that is damned odd
<jclishman>
i was going to suggest reinstalling TF, but I don't want to lose all my engine flight data
<Agathorn>
that is stored in your save file
<Agathorn>
only stuff stored with TF itself is the TF settings
<Agathorn>
you have somethign odd going on though..some stuff is working some stuff isn't
<Agathorn>
i'm more inclined to think there is soem mod conflict or NRE being thrown
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<jclishman>
Could reinstalling the mod fix it?
<Agathorn>
not if the probl;em is the above
<Agathorn>
reinstalling will onyl fix if you messed up the install
<Agathorn>
jclishman: did you happen to notice during your flight if the agena engines were showing up in the TestFlight MSD and if they were collecting data?
<jclishman>
Agathorn: I actually didn't have a testflight button in the flight
<jclishman>
maybe that's becaues it was a KRASH simulation
<Agathorn>
I would still expect the buttoin to be there
<Agathorn>
can you do a regular flight? Or would that cost too much
<Rokker>
jclishman: nope, testflight should still show up
<Agathorn>
or just go out to the SpaceCenter and do you see a button?
<Agathorn>
if not then something is definitely messed up
<jclishman>
button at space center view
<jclishman>
(brb dinner)
<Agathorn>
ok :)
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<Agathorn>
double check in flight again, might be that you have too many buttons and just need to scroll
<Agathorn>
after dinner of course
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<acc>
done pimping orbiter and LV. time for a sim :)
<KevinStarwaster>
I didn't think I would but I love Saints Row 4.... mission objectives? "Find the biggest glowingest thing and blow it up." then "Find something important looking and blow it up"
<acc>
not my taste of games, but glad you enjoy it
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<jclishman>
oh well i'm a fuckin idiot
<jclishman>
TF wasn't enabled
<jclishman>
>.>
<jclishman>
<.<
<jclishman>
screw it, imma start over
<Agathorn>
well that would do it
<jclishman>
Agathorn: sorry for wasting your time lol
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<acc>
hm, something is wrong with that converter. it should generate more oxygen than 3 kerbals consume
<acc>
but it doesn't
<Agathorn>
blame the kerbals
<Agathorn>
They're obviously not breathing properly
<acc>
heh possible
<acc>
TACLS settings say 591,84 units per day for one kerbal
<acc>
and the converter should produce 3x 771,90432192
<acc>
it's definetly using the resources to convert things, so it's running
<acc>
but oxygen still drains
<acc>
and CO² rises
<acc>
gnah
<acc>
from tuning a craft to debugging a part module... :D
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<jclishman>
I love the feeling when you finish a second stage
<Agathorn>
you weirdos using commans for decimals
<jclishman>
so satisfying
<Agathorn>
s/commans/commas
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: you weirdos using commas for decimals
<acc>
Agathorn: only in my spreadsheet
<rsparkyc>
and here apparently
<acc>
beacise c/p
<acc>
because
<acc>
that libre office cals needs commas to make formulas work
<acc>
s/cals/calc/
<Qboid>
acc meant to say: that libre office calc needs commas to make formulas work
<acc>
I somehow managed to install that stuff in german. here's the comma more usual
<acc>
but I also prefer a dot
<jclishman>
oh my god, i just figured out how to make second stages that much prettier
<jclishman>
add a dome to the top of the tank
<Rokker>
jclishman: lmfao
<Rokker>
for some reason the civ series is under grand strategy on steam
<jclishman>
what
<jclishman>
oh
<jclishman>
lol
<jclishman>
what are Balloon tanks good for?
<Rokker>
jclishman: light as fuck
<jclishman>
Rokker: not cheaty?
<Rokker>
costs more iirc
<Rokker>
and worse on the insulation front?
<Rokker>
cant remember
<Rokker>
jclishman: atlas and centaur use balloon so
<jclishman>
does UDMH/IRNFA need to be insulated?
<Rokker>
no
<UmbralRaptor>
Only if you're launching from Venus.
<jclishman>
sweet, balloon tanks it is
<UmbralRaptor>
IRFNA balloon tanks sound scary.
<Rokker>
UmbralRaptor: irfna anything is scary
<jclishman>
yeah i'm not seeing any increase in price
<Rokker>
huh
<jclishman>
I should finish reading Ignition!
<Rokker>
maybe i misremembered
<jclishman>
for balloons is that 100% utilization?
<jclishman>
or should i leave that at 86
<Rokker>
jclishman: was 86 the default?
<jclishman>
86 is default
<Rokker>
idk, up to you
<Rokker>
you can make it a lil higher
<Rokker>
100% is still unrealistic
<jclishman>
when i first started playing RO i'd always set every tank to 100%, because "why the hell isn't it at max?"
<Agathorn>
because cheating
<jclishman>
Agathorn: I just didn't know that "utilization" meant how much of the tank was tank
<Agathorn>
I tend to push domed tanks up to around 90-95% at max..but cylinder tanks I leave around 86-90
<jclishman>
Agathorn: So, a sphereical tank for RCS would be 95ish, right?
<acc>
ah, some hidden documentation in the cs-file :)
<jclishman>
noooo agena engine shutdown
<jclishman>
TF pls
<acc>
...which is outdated. and the up to date one has no
<PFAVG>
:)
<PFAVG>
Thanks stratochief|remote, I will try that.
<acc>
at least a few comments
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<Agathorn>
love how if you just search for "Blue Marble" you get the Earth images
<jclishman>
test flight keeps killing one of my upper stage engines
<Agathorn>
well you just started using it, so you need to get some data
<jclishman>
true
<Agathorn>
should be flying unmanned launches for a bit
<Agathorn>
uncrewed*
<Agathorn>
hmm think I have something wrong.. putting a camera 500km above the earth, the planet appears far larger and closer than I would have expected
<jclishman>
Damn, -135k perigee
<jclishman>
mission abort
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<xShadowx>
Agathorn: change the lens ;p
<Agathorn>
yeah not sure what they typically use on the ISS images you see
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<acc>
Pap: cool :)
<xShadowx>
i thought iss was down to like 300km?
<xShadowx>
google says 350km
<Agathorn>
Google told me 400km
<Agathorn>
odd
<Agathorn>
International Space Station/Orbit height 400 km
<Agathorn>
maybe its eccentric
<Agathorn>
though I would have thought not
<Agathorn>
yeah it is
<Agathorn>
between 330 and 435 km
<Agathorn>
anyway my visuals look to be about right for now
<Agathorn>
close enough
<acc>
The ISS is maintained in a nearly circular orbit with a minimum mean altitude of 330 km (205 mi) and a maximum of 410 km (255 mi)
<acc>
Agathorn: yeah, looks good
<xShadowx>
nice plastic ball of earth :)
<Pap>
Is that why there are specific days to launch to the ISS for resupply? Trying to match Rendezvous inclination when at perigee?
<acc>
nah, it's more about windows, so it takes not as long to catch up to the station
<jclishman>
oh i just have them burning too long
<acc>
corelation of orbit inc and position of the station in orbit
<Agathorn>
xShadowx: not caring about looks right now :)
<acc>
Pap: btw somehow that resource generator in the sstu soyuz orbital module does not work right. it produces less than it should
<Agathorn>
hence the blurry as heck texture
<acc>
but I can't find why. config looks fine to me
<Pap>
Acc it definitely has to do with the part in the config file that has to do with the specialist. If you look at the FASA Apollo config, that doesn't exist and those values work great.
<acc>
yeah, might be
<acc>
I'll test that
<acc>
I wonder who put that there
<acc>
the idea of things working more efficient if a skilled engineer is there is not bad, but the basic stats should cover the needs of a usual crew
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<Pap>
That is how a lot of them are. SSTU Apollo is the same. I changed it in my game. We need to ask Stratochief
<Pap>
o/ newhere
<acc>
ah, ok
<newhere>
Hey there, just inquiring as to the status of the most recent Verizon's progress towards completion
<newhere>
Version's*
<acc>
slowly, but getin there. like a old man :>
<Pap>
It works great on 1.2.2 but it is a manual install following a spreadsheet that was put together.
<Agathorn>
night all
<acc>
Agathorn: g'night
<newhere>
Night
<Pap>
There are some dependencies that are not updated so it cannot be fully released
<newhere>
Thanks pap, might just give the manual install a try...
<acc>
yeah, it's definetly playable and enjoyable, but some manual work
<Pap>
It isn't as scary as it sounds
<newhere>
Seems like it's made quite a bit of progress since last I checked about 6 months ago
<newhere>
Or 3 months ago...
<newhere>
Or maybe 2...
<newhere>
Idk anymore....
<acc>
it works and is great fun. worth the time needed to install everything :)
<acc>
ah! I think I found that nasty thing: SpecialistBonusBase = 0.05
<acc>
1.0 should fix it, I guess
<Pap>
What the hell does it mean?
<jclishman>
okay, attempt 3
<jclishman>
oh hey, i can do EVAs now
<jclishman>
convenient
<acc>
Pap: I think that is the base value. 1.0 would be 100% of the values set in the config
<acc>
0.05 are 5%. so that's very low
<acc>
if I understand it right
<Pap>
That would make sense. Let me know what your test shows
<acc>
just guessing
<acc>
yep, I'll do
<acc>
some proper documentation would be cool :>
<Pap>
That's no fun acc, blind guesses and conjecture > knowing things
<stupid_chris>
well at least I can see that RealChute lived on
<Pap>
Nice jclishman and damn, your graphics settings look nice!
<jclishman>
Pap: :D
<jclishman>
Pap: It seriously almost looks real
<Pap>
No shit, I actually did a double take
<acc>
stupid_chris: who are you? :O
<stupid_chris>
acc: who am I
<stupid_chris>
I wonder myself
<acc>
nice to see you, welcome back
<stupid_chris>
also glad to be back
<stupid_chris>
taking my first dig back at RealChute in over a year
<acc>
heh
<stupid_chris>
whatisthiscode.jpg
<acc>
yeah, I know that feeling
<stupid_chris>
I'm basically about to rewrite the whole thing from the ground up, most likely
<stupid_chris>
I was a very inexperienced coder when I started RealChute and a lot of the code is... subpar
<acc>
I end up doing that most of the time too :D
<Pap>
lol
<acc>
you're always get better and old code is always old code
<acc>
getin
<stupid_chris>
And today I could most likely code for a living if it wasn't for the fact that the mentality is "no degree no job", regardless of the fact I have more experience than half their employees
<stupid_chris>
yeah, but now it's four years old code
<stupid_chris>
back then I was dabbling into OOP for the first time
<acc>
ah, ok
<stupid_chris>
and now I'm a second year CS student with a half finished Unity game in the making :p
<stupid_chris>
so it's another level of "old code"
<acc>
yeah
<acc>
it only gets worse over time heh
<acc>
old code is definetly not like wine
<stupid_chris>
nope
<acc>
it's more like old bread
<stupid_chris>
especially that now we have *C# 7*
* stupid_chris
throws glitter
<acc>
heh
<jclishman>
side effect of sending a kerbal to orbit is that now I have a 2.5t lifter
<stupid_chris>
Microsoft does a lot of awful things but god I love them for their improvements to C#
<acc>
at least one thing
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<stupid_chris>
seriously, tuples are the shit
<PFAVG>
What did you say to jclishman about mechjeb's ascent guidance, if you don't mind me asking.
<Pap>
night all
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<acc>
g'night Pap|Sleep
<acc>
PFAVG: who you're asking?
<acc>
pimp my soyuz completed, ready for production :>
<PFAVG>
Did not know that acc.
<acc>
you're not sure who you're asking things?
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<stratochief|away>
o/ great to see you agian stupid_chris :)
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<stupid_chris>
stratosleep: likewise :p
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<acc>
pretty enjoyable night launch from baikonur :)
<acc>
oh crap, second stage shutdown half trough the burn
<acc>
most shitty time abort-wise
<acc>
poor crew, they'll have a bad time
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<acc>
knockout, gravity wins heh. but hey, alive
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<Theysen>
!tell acc Adjustable Landing Gear is now in Kerbal Foundries!!!!! I knew it was continued _somewhere_ !
<Qboid>
Theysen: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<acc>
Theysen: oh, awesome. thanks :)
<Qboid>
acc: Theysen left a message for you in #RO [17.05.2017 06:37:03]: "Adjustable Landing Gear is now in Kerbal Foundries!!!!! I knew it was continued _somewhere_ !"
<Theysen>
actually perfectly implementable into RO as the other stuff is scalable too and not fixed sizes
<acc>
nice, I'll look into it later
<acc>
need to setup my gamepad anyways until I can do planes
<acc>
mhm, that tuned soyuz is lovely
<acc>
worth all that calculating and figuring out that bug in the converter config
<acc>
cant't wait to pimp my apollo and later on the orion :>
<acc>
and can't write
<Theysen>
PIMP MY RIDE
<Theysen>
my Mars base went defunct, latest resupply vessel went down in flames
<acc>
ops
<acc>
any survivors (still)?
<Theysen>
they died. I didn't go redundant..
<Theysen>
worked before so well
<acc>
oh
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<Theysen>
it was an unforeseen solar radiation burst in the news .. :^)
<Theysen>
acc are you gonna provide the updated configs for SSTU stuff in the repo ?
<Theysen>
assuming you're fine tuning those :D
<acc>
Theysen: damn fake news heh
<acc>
yeah, I'll PR the fixes for the converters
<Theysen>
what is real when our eyes aren't real :⁾
<Theysen>
awesome
<acc>
and the recources might need some overhauling as well
<acc>
but I've to compare current config with the real soyuz to be sure what to change
<HypergolicSkunk>
Pap: is it intentional that the first heatshields are only available in General Construction (4th node), and are already Lunar-rated? or am I missing some mod somewhere? :)
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<Pap>
HypergolicSkunk, that doesn't sound right, let me look at my spreadsheet
<Pap>
How was it done in the old tree? According to my sheet, they are not available until much too late
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<Pap>
However, there is no Heat Shield that is not created by RO or Squad that is not listed as Lunar rated
<Pap>
The old tree has them all available in starting in Tier 3, General Construsction
<Pap>
They should be in the same tier on this one I would think, what do you think?
<CobaltWolf>
I think you should make it so none are lunar rated, and not tell anyone
<HypergolicSkunk>
my problem right now is that I can get to orbit, but cannot reenter. I would have to really science the crap out of every biome with every available instrument, on Earth, just to get to the heatshields
<HypergolicSkunk>
before I installed your techtree, there were definitely heatshields that specifically said 'not lunar rated' :p
<Pap>
Something is missing, hmmm
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<Pap>
In my installs, I never had non-lunar rated heatshields other than the SSTU procedurals
<Pap>
We are going to need someone with a little more knowledge on this to weigh in
<HypergolicSkunk>
that is so weird, but typical for my experience with RO/RP-0 ... the very same list of mods, installed even in just a minimally different way, will still end up in installs with different behaviors
<CobaltWolf>
that's... annoying
<HypergolicSkunk>
Pap: do you agree that there should be a non-lunar-rated heatshield option? I mean, from a gameplay-POV
<stratochief>
!tell Cobalt* which engine is that? the nozzles seem simple, so I don't really recognize it. dual Navaho's?
<Qboid>
stratochief: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap|AFK>
Is DRE a Required mod?
<stratochief>
Pap|AFK: yep. currently, I think those shields are the crucial bit that remains only in DRE. the other DRE features aren't game breaking without them (a bit less realism without it)
<stratochief>
Pap|AFK: I don't believe that is ISRU, that is bad science journalism IMO. 'new'/novel electrolysis catalysts are developed on the reg in labs, the sometimes get press
<stratochief>
basically, a 'maybe' cheaper capital cost for water electrolysis systems, which could maybe absorb excess wind or solar power in places like California that are/will be overbuild with solar soon. a maybe of a maybe
<stratochief>
for space applications, cost isn't a real factor. one serious driver of early solar PV tech was that satellite companies would be willing to buy the best, most efficient solar panels anybody could make that would be reliable and work in space. weight is sometimes a factor, cost isn't since shipping to space is damn expensive anyway, why cheap out on what you're sending up
<stratochief>
my preference for energy storage isn't to overbuild PV then find ways to store it as split water, it is to bio-digest cellulose like switch grass to methane (natural-natural gas) whch you can store and burn later on demand for power
<stratochief>
Pap|AFK: if someone really wanted to, they could move the DRE heatshield configs into RO, rather than just being in DRE; my preference is just to install DRE for the shields, but to each their own
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<stratochief|remote>
o/ CobaltWolf
<CobaltWolf>
o/
<Qboid>
CobaltWolf: stratochief left a message for you in #RO [17.05.2017 15:14:24]: "which engine is that? the nozzles seem simple, so I don't really recognize it. dual Navaho's?"
<CobaltWolf>
no not Navahos...
<stratochief|remote>
welp, I give up feed me knowledge!
<CobaltWolf>
hrmm.... uses the same thrust chamber as the LR-79 and SD-3 but not American
<stratochief|remote>
ehh, so I'm close enough for me :P I don't know anything non-america really, other than vintage russian stuff
<stratochief|remote>
Europa, or something Japanese?
<CobaltWolf>
It's the Blue Streak first stage engine, with the two RZ-2 engines
<CobaltWolf>
yeah Europa
<CobaltWolf>
Back in.... Gee, prolly November, me and Beale were talking, he decided to hand over his old british rocket assets to me, Benjee and MrMeeb so we could make a mod to expand on them
<xShadowx>
i wonder at efficiency, extra solar > make methane > burn for heat at night vs solar > boil water > release heast a night
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: when I talk energy stuff, I'm pretty much always just talking electricity. there are plenty of cheaper, easier ways to heat a home/keep it arm through the night that don't involve methane, or very little methane heating
<xShadowx>
methane is more storable, but you know you'll be using the heat in a few hours anyways
<CobaltWolf>
We wanted to expand it to include all the Europa variants from Eyes Turned Skywards, a couple other proposed versions, the Ariel probes and Beagle 2, the Multirole Recovery Capsule and the Minotaur from ETS (idk it just felt appropriate)
<CobaltWolf>
and we were going to call it British Rocket Expansion and Integration Technologies. or BREXIT for short.
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: more conversion steps generally means loss of energy. heat is low quality energy, no need to convert it to methane to keep it until night. a house can be built with enough heat sinking material to keep warm through the night
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: ahh, I'll re-think that for... what, mars surface or moon?
<stratochief|remote>
CobaltWolf: god damn british. did they have speculative rocket deisgns you're working on/considering?
<CobaltWolf>
and then Benjee10 disappeared for months to work on VFX gigs for French Netflix, and I wound up taking something of a break from KSP over the winter... so we never really wound up going anywhere with it. So last night I was talking to Beale about it, decided to work on it some more
<CobaltWolf>
@stratochief|remote yeah. There's a ton to dig up on Europa III, since they were looking into that when Britain left ELDO and France and Germany went to develop Ariane
<xShadowx>
stratochief|remote: either :) moon would be a long night though lol
<stratochief|remote>
acc: Theysen: sily german. learned -> gelearnt :P
<CobaltWolf>
So, all of those and then some should be buildable... it'd be comparable if not more to the amount of parts/flexibility that you get from BDB's Titan line
<stratochief|remote>
CobaltWolf: is some of that from Eyes Turned Skyward? I didn't read Eyes deep enough to realize some of it was British
<xShadowx>
so moon case methane might be better, just because water (or something) storing heat to bleed off wouldnt last (insulation leaks too much over 2 weeks)
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: shit no, man. thermal strage can be wicked great. there is a housing project in Alberta, fucking Canada that stores solar thermal heat in a sand reserve underground to warm houses over the entire winter
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief|remote: Eyes has a 'secondary' point of departure (since it's a little before the NASA administrator changes, which is the primary one) in that basically the British manage to convince France and Germany to actually do quality control for their damn stages for Europa.
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: something like, water seal, then styrofoam layer, then sand filled with pipes so you can soak the sand with heat over summer, pull it out in winter
<xShadowx>
stratochief|remote: did it turn to glass? jk
<CobaltWolf>
The French and Germans were flying the upper stages with essentially no ground testing, extremely shoddy electrics (comparable to Apollo 1 in terms of how bad they were) (you'd think it would be the british with that issue, nyeh?) and really no quality control in general
<CobaltWolf>
in Eyes they use some (quoting here) "make work juice" to have the British yell at them to get their shit together, Europa manages to be successful, and so Britain stays in.
<stratochief|remote>
Germans know quality control, stupid post-WWII germans. Although, america and russia stole their best naz^H^H^H scientists
<CobaltWolf>
>>implying WW2 quality control in Germany was anything other than mediocre
<CobaltWolf>
well, quality control probably wasn't the issue. It was everything else
<CobaltWolf>
So you have ongoing and upgraded Europa flights under ESA, rather than Ariane being developed and flow by Arianespace.
<stratochief|remote>
turns out ground testing facilities are expensive, but worth it. Verner Vas Right!
<CobaltWolf>
That, plus the lack of the shuttle means that Europe doesn't have a near monopoly on commercial flight in the 80s/90s
<CobaltWolf>
since then Commerical Titan 3 winds up being successful because it's not being used by USAF anymore and they can restructure it / focus the design on commercial satellites.
<CobaltWolf>
Yeah no, Eyes is really great up until like part 4, then it gets... goofy. Too optimistic. But there's some really neat stuff with the development of the ESA and things like that.
<stratochief|remote>
yeah, and their fixed development costs were pretty much paid by the military. light water nuclear reactors, all over again. tech lock in
<CobaltWolf>
And then the last link I shared was what the British wanted to do if they went their own way, which was use the keroxide (kerolox + hydrogen peroxide for clean hypergolic fuel, my fav fuel combo) Black Arrow as interim upper stages for Blue Streak, and then later upgrade it with Centaur produced under license in Canada (#Commonwealth)
<CobaltWolf>
these are from some random ATL but I love the designs and want to make sure they're useable
<CobaltWolf>
er, buildable
<stratochief|remote>
I'm not sure how much I care for the common core concept. although anything becomes cost effective if you just use it enough. crazy american history.
<CobaltWolf>
That's what I dislike about E of Pi's designs, they all wind up being Common Core
<stratochief|remote>
did you run out of american things to make, or just wanted to dive inot a project with a different feel?
<stratochief|remote>
common core can be sound, but for my alt history I prefer to just stick with moar Saturn V's to bring down the average cost
<CobaltWolf>
No, I just love Europa and the British rockets, there were some Brits on my discord that also wanted it, and Beale didn't want to remake his old rocket parts since he's trimming down Tantares
<CobaltWolf>
Idk common cores are just ugly. I like it for the ETS Europa 3/4 though since it's blue streak being reused as a booster for a larger rocket, rather than strapping identical cores together
<CobaltWolf>
Common core just feels like a modern thing, whereas a lot of older rockets have unique boosters (Ariane 4, R7)
<CobaltWolf>
Oh, I also like the idea of Europa's Astris upper stage being kept around as a small storable kick stage to go on top of the larger cryogenic ones that come for Europa 3/4
<stratochief|remote>
is there a way to build a viable lunar lander program with those Europa rockets?
<CobaltWolf>
Asking about any variant in particular?
<CobaltWolf>
or one of the other ones I linked? Or just the larger Europa 3/4 concepts in general?
<stratochief|remote>
well, the heavier the varient the better I imagine. I just mean, would they need to do EOR or EOR/LOR, or is it just too small to throw serious mass to lunar orbit, then on to the surface
<CobaltWolf>
Ok, well, 1 sec. Let's just assume ETS since there's actual numbers for it.
<stratochief|remote>
sure
Pap|AFK is now known as Pap
<Pap>
stratochief|remote, that is the drawback when you don't read an article and forward it on, I forget half the shit out there is BS nowadays
<CobaltWolf>
Ok, so Europa 44u - rightmost variant on that image I just linked. So that's the ~4m core stage with 4x ~3m Blue Streaks for boosters. It has a 4m cryogenic second stage and another short 4m cryogenic kick stage. All those numbers referring to the diameters.
<stratochief|remote>
Pap: not BS, lots of worthwhile work gets done in the lab. just journalists not learning enough context to realize the true meaning of the lab work, and that it isn't worth writing a general news article about
<Pap>
Ah, makes sense
<CobaltWolf>
ETS Wiki lists it as 18422kg to LEO. So probably doable if they wanted to do an EOR architecture, but you're missing pretty much everything else
<CobaltWolf>
I've always wanted so see something where Japan and ESA work together closely. If they cooperated fully I think they could do more to be a '3rd power' in space, but that's a LOT of politics that could ruin things
<stratochief|remote>
yeah. ~17T to LEO is like the Saturn IB. good enough for a Gemini lunur flyby, not much else without lots of EOR
<stratochief|remote>
well, with the UK leaving the EU, Japan should just take their place :P
<CobaltWolf>
Yeah idk. I just finished re-reading Dawn of the Dragon so I'm feeling optimistic
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief|remote: I more meant in an alternate history, so Japan is working with them during the 80s economic boom
<CobaltWolf>
what sort of monstrosity would that create...
<CobaltWolf>
since Europe has a fairly developed launch capability, I'd imagine Japan focuses more on creating a crew vehicle
<stratochief|remote>
probably godzilla. empowering japan almost always ends in godzilla
<stratochief|remote>
yeah, europa making launchers, japan developing payloads/hardware
<CobaltWolf>
And then if you don't have Japan (HOPE) and ESA (Hermes) both trying to jump straight to having an expensive, useless spaceplane, and just focusing on a practical capsule... maybe you have something there
<CobaltWolf>
maybe not much more and independent launch capability to US stations (Freedom or otherwise)
<CobaltWolf>
Right now I'm 'consulting' a timeline where Frank Borman becomes administrator and is able to get a second order of Saturn Vs to continue moon landings. They wind up advancing to that architecture that has the LEM Truck/Shelter/Taxi variants
<Rokker>
stratochief|remote: wait what about the UK leaving the EU? Japan should take their place in what?
<Rokker>
the EU?
<stratochief|remote>
Rokker: in the EU
<stratochief|remote>
CobaltWolf: nice. I like Apollo Applications. although my favourite portion is the wetlab stuff
<CobaltWolf>
and as part of Nixon's 'soft power' thing, they start doing euronauts for US allies. So Britain and Germany, among others, wind up basically putting all their space effort behind the americans which effectively dissolves ELDO, maybe ESRO too.
<CobaltWolf>
and France decides to plug on themselves
<stratochief|remote>
if they spaced them out, the US could have done 3 or 4 double Saturn V launched AAP extended stay missions with a second order of Saturn Vs. space them out over the 70s, early 80s to stay within funding
<CobaltWolf>
so now I'm trying to figure out what an all-French Ariane looks like
<stratochief|remote>
all french? how about a nuclear upper stage? france digs nuclear :P
<Rokker>
stratochief|remote: but what does that have to do with space
<CobaltWolf>
@stratochief|remote Off the top of my head I know of at least two more bulk Saturn V orders that they do, and I think that lasts them through the 70s. The second order (3rd total, with the first being the historical one) winds up changing the first stage to Saturn S-1D. And then they use 1D SSTO to replace Saturn 1 type capability, but they don't use it much
<CobaltWolf>
since US is completely focused on keeping moon capability, since they know if they lose it they probably won't get it back if they let their superheavy lift capability die
<stratochief|remote>
Rokker: as much as it has to do with the price of tea in china
<CobaltWolf>
so there's no budget really for any LEO stuff... and I think they miss out on some of their flagship unmanned missions too. But I think they do the Viking missions as they were originally intended on a Saturn V so it's a huge probe + a huge lander.
<stratochief|remote>
lol. Saturn V or Saturn IB launched probes could have been massive, and expensive
stratochief|remote is now known as stratochief|away
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief|away: yeah I'm not sure with the French stuff. From what I have read, at the time they would have been favoring the Europa III "B" design, which is the historical Ariane first stage, but with a large ~4m cryogenic upper stage. IRL, the Germans convinced them to stick the smaller storable stage in
<Theysen>
jclishman, LOL it even gives you the drain in Watts that's really not a big deal :D
<jclishman>
agh, any way to turn off remote tech?
<jclishman>
not letting me test
<Theysen>
it used to be unlimited something before 1.2 via the AlT-F12 menu, these days you can disable it in the Space Center View via the GUI
<Theysen>
if there is something inside the flight scene to cheat it I don't know
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<jclishman>
woo it works!
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<jclishman>
So, 3.12km/s to moon SOI
<jclishman>
hmmmmmmmmm
<HypergolicSkunk>
and get the inclination right, too ;)
<CobaltWolf>
How useful would a dedicated Vanguard probe part be for BDB?
<CobaltWolf>
someone modeled it a couple months back, they even UV unwrapped it. I figure it'll take like an hour to texture and put in game.
<jclishman>
HypergolicSkunk: I *think* I know how to do that
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: how are you at getting complex animations into the game? I have a probe I modeled a while back with solar panels but aborted it because I could never figure out how to get the animation wrking
<HypergolicSkunk>
are you launching manually, or do you use Mechjeb Ascent Guidance like any respectable mentally sane person, jclishman ?
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: it should be easy. Can you open the Unity scene?
<HypergolicSkunk>
heretic
<jclishman>
HypergolicSkunk: It likes to mess stuff up and turn off engines that only have one ignition >.>
<HypergolicSkunk>
jclishman: I can help with that
<HypergolicSkunk>
NK showed it to me once
<Agathorn>
MJ always caused me problems as well.. I tried to use it as little as I could
<jclishman>
So, my 2nd stage can only provide 2km/s, and putting on a few baby sergeants give 1.2km/s
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: what do you mean?
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: wait, what were you having trouble with?
<CobaltWolf>
was that supposed to be all one part?
<Agathorn>
I just modeled and animated it in Modo - never got to the point of trying to get it into KSP because someoen told me animations like those panels were really hard to get into KSP
<CobaltWolf>
Oh
<CobaltWolf>
it's so fucking easy
<CobaltWolf>
like, you export it right? Then in Unity, you select the file in your asset browser, go to the import settings, set the animation system to legacy (go KSP!) and then name the animation so you can call it in the cfg
<CobaltWolf>
now, with solar panels it's a bit trickier but not much. You need to do a simple rig to give it a pivot point
<Agathorn>
well I think I animated that using IK due to the hierrchical nature of it
<HypergolicSkunk>
jclishman: give me a minute to make a screenshot of my Ascent Guidance settings
<Agathorn>
I acually don't recall for sure
<CobaltWolf>
IK? uhhh
<Agathorn>
but presumably I can just bake it out
<CobaltWolf>
idk you could try and bake it. I just do everything FK for KSP, it's not like it matters that much
<Agathorn>
doing that with FK would be a real pain
<CobaltWolf>
yeah you need a couple extra transforms to be in the right place and and orientation
<CobaltWolf>
lol, the BDB Skylab solar panels were done FK T.T
<Agathorn>
I'm also not really an aimator so I just did it the easiest way I knew how :)
<CobaltWolf>
including the scissor rails on the back that ALSO move
<CobaltWolf>
I try not to overcomplicate things since I don't really know the limits of what Unity (or rather, KSP!) can accept. So I've never done any sort of bones/skinning. Just FK animating objects and doing tricks with the hierarchy and nulls to get what I want
<riocrokite>
what is FK?
<HypergolicSkunk>
jclishman: http://i.imgur.com/i0VwkBD.jpg - also make sure to enable RSS/RO settings in the Mechjeb Settings window
<HypergolicSkunk>
then you make your first stage have about 6km/s
<Agathorn>
riocrokite: Forward Kinematics, vs IK Inverse Kinematics
<riocrokite>
k
<Agathorn>
IK is about animating child objects and having the parents auto move
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<Agathorn>
imagine moving the hand on a skeleton - you want the arms to move accordingly
<HypergolicSkunk>
jclishman: and if Mechjeb still shuts off the engine(s), then you have an option such as 'Limit throttle' or something active in one of the other Mechjeb windows
<CobaltWolf>
FK, you rotate the shoulder, elbow, wrist, finger joints etc manually.
<jclishman>
HypergolicSkunk: 6km/s?
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<jclishman>
thats an awful lot
<CobaltWolf>
IK, you just grab the hand and drag it around and the arm figures out how to bend
<riocrokite>
yah I do everything with FK, more efficient in unity although might be harder to prepare
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<CobaltWolf>
I just don't trust IK for KSP parts... but one of Akron's first parts (the Pioneer 10 RTG) used skinned vertices so what do I know
<CobaltWolf>
like I didn't think that was possible either
<HypergolicSkunk>
jclishman: you can use less, and then use a steeper launch profile - I'm sure one could split it 50/50. it all depends on how good you are with your second stage controlling Time to Apoapsis
<acc>
at the cost of dV+
<HypergolicSkunk>
always :P
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<HypergolicSkunk>
also, the profile needs to be different if you use detachable side-boosters
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<Agathorn>
my last problm I had with MJ when I briefly trid to pick up my 1.1 install was that whenever I fired the engine on my orbital stage the craft would yaw off course
<Agathorn>
little problems like that was why i just ended up wrting kRPC scripts instead
<acc>
yeah, that is still a thing
<acc>
but can be fixed by playing with the attitude control settings
<jclishman>
kRPC?
<acc>
it's not as bad as it was back then
<Agathorn>
kRPC lets you control KSP craft from external scripts like Python
<Agathorn>
think of it like kOS if you know that? But the programming happens outside of KSP
<Agathorn>
jclishman: have you seen my KSP RealMission videos? They are completely automated using kRPC
<acc>
Agathorn: in the attitude adjustment window
<Agathorn>
well yeah
<Agathorn>
but I meant like what kinds of tweaks help prevent it from yawing off course :)
<Agathorn>
because it controls fine in other cases, such as under RCS
<acc>
ah. it's different
<Agathorn>
its just when the engine kicks in
<acc>
depends on the craft
<Agathorn>
which I found odd because the engine is centerline
<acc>
I usually just play with the value, more or less, until thing get better
<acc>
excuse my writing, still half asleep
<jclishman>
aww, baby seargent ignition causes shit to flip out
<jclishman>
dammit
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<jclishman>
would've been 400m's short anyways
<Theysen>
did you spin it?
<jclishman>
dont have the fuel to
<jclishman>
hmm
<Theysen>
i was talking spin stabilization with some other solids
<jclishman>
ah
<Theysen>
the little ones
<jclishman>
I should probably get the basic solids tech
<jclishman>
that'd help
<Theysen>
if you have a little baby sergeant stage the small separation motors are enough
<Agathorn>
you were talking with solids? Did they talk back?
<jclishman>
yes they did
<jclishman>
might just fast forward time until i get staged combustion
<Theysen>
Agathorn, i talk to all of my parts before launch, they perform better then. until your mod strikes
<jclishman>
Wait, agathorn is the TestFlight dev?
<jclishman>
huh.
<Theysen>
yes so youre speaking to the devil :^)
<jclishman>
Agathorn: With all due respect, I hate you so much
<jclishman>
<3
<jclishman>
oh hey, i've got the rd-275 now
<Agathorn>
heh
<Agathorn>
author of the most hated mod
<Agathorn>
what a legacy :)
<rsparkyc>
lol
<rsparkyc>
you should update it to have random R&D losses too
<rsparkyc>
"sorry, servers crashed, you lost all research on this part"
<Theysen>
nice idea
<Agathorn>
lol
<Agathorn>
If I did that I think I would start fearing for my physical existence
<rsparkyc>
that's when you clone your install and call it "rogue kerbal space program"
<Agathorn>
interesting idea for my own game though.. thinking an option that allows for signal loss occosionally during missions
<Agathorn>
especially in earlier tech
<acc>
"your research data has been crypted, pay to unlock your data"
<Agathorn>
lol
<Agathorn>
Maybe that would actually get someoen to donate via paypal :)
<acc>
heh
<Agathorn>
somethign which to this day has never happened despite how popular the mod is
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<CobaltWolf>
I wish I could get enough people to donate to Patreon to support me while I look for a job. But I know that won't happen :P
<acc>
Agathorn: oh
<lamont>
Agathorn: FTFY
<Agathorn>
lol
<acc>
maybe because people use ckan and never see the button
<Agathorn>
another reason to not like CKAN :p
<Agathorn>
I'm still waiting for NathanKell who specifically said he would donate in the future to actually do it.. not because I need or want the money but rather just because he said he would and I find it amusing
<acc>
ckan isn't bad, but not as well done as I'd like it to
<CobaltWolf>
I had one guy donate to me every month or so, which I was using for beer money. But now he's decided to be a teetotaler and won't donate unless I guarantee him I'm staying sober and not drinking. But I need the money for beer.
<Agathorn>
lol
<gazpachian>
"Brake the Covenant into low orbit" *Fires fusion torches facing prograde*
<acc>
heh
<HypergolicSkunk>
The Expanse?
<Agathorn>
I love that I still get more donations from my old Dragon Age modding than I do from KSP, despite me makign it clear on my DA blog that I am no longer doing anything with DA modding
<gazpachian>
Alien: Covenant
<acc>
some years back I got about 5eu in flattr
<Agathorn>
but I wrote the CKAN equivelant for DA and apparently everyon still uses it
<gazpachian>
the Expanse gets a lot right all things considered
<acc>
DA?
<Agathorn>
Dragon Age
<acc>
ah, dragon age
<acc>
never played that
<Agathorn>
DA origins to be precise
<acc>
I think the only fantasy I ever played was WOW with my GF back then
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: what's the highest RAM usage you've ever seen in Nuke?
<Agathorn>
lots
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<Agathorn>
I mean i've seen scenes that used more than the 64gb on an atists workstation
<CobaltWolf>
I just got up to 60gb T.T
<CobaltWolf>
yeah
<Agathorn>
but that is almost always from just bad scene optimization
<Agathorn>
script*
<jclishman>
lets see how long this engine goes for on a test stand
<jclishman>
it seems too good to be true
<Theysen>
exactly the same thing the engine thinks when you're on a real mission
<Theysen>
it then shits itself over the excitement
<acc>
playing on that game for 21y100d ingame time and only one space debrie. not bad :)
<jclishman>
Agathorn: why does data not go up a *little* bit on a test stand
<Agathorn>
because I made it not :)
<acc>
jclishman: to prevent pushing the engines on the ground until launch
<Agathorn>
the R&D system replced static test stands
<jclishman>
ah, thats true
<Agathorn>
the concept is that the initial reliability values represent a stage after static testing was alreadyd one
<gazpachian>
And what would be the point of the R&D system if you could recover the engines for 100% funds after test firing them?
<HypergolicSkunk>
TEEESTFLIIIIGHT!! :'(
<HypergolicSkunk>
nooo
<rsparkyc>
since there seems to be more activity here than in #kspmodding:
<rsparkyc>
why does this field show in the editor?
<gazpachian>
208s MTBF, sure you're not burning them past their rated burn time? ;)
<HypergolicSkunk>
I think so, but I'm going to doublecheck
<gazpachian>
use the RD-108 instead if the 107 is giving you trouble
<HypergolicSkunk>
it's the first time it failed me :)
<Agathorn>
bear in mind MTBF is nothing but a statisical aggregation
<Agathorn>
statistics and reality rarely agree
<HypergolicSkunk>
yeah, that's what I assumed. but I'm a bit of a masochist when it comes to KSP, so TestFlight stays :p
<Agathorn>
oh of course :) I'm just saying dont' take that 208s as gospel
<Theysen>
I have to say I kind of like the new font for 1.3 and the overall look
<Agathorn>
new font huh?
<Agathorn>
I still think KSP loosk like a prototype game
<CobaltWolf>
KSP basically doesn't use any of the Unity graphics options
<CobaltWolf>
it's configured to look like a mobile game...
<Theysen>
Agathorn, yeah it looks more polished somehow
<Agathorn>
It always gave me the impression of a group of people who had no art skills so they just embraced it being ugly
<Agathorn>
thats the new thing these days.. ugly art as a "style" rather than incompetence :)
<Theysen>
VAB shading is still broken and shit but well what do they care ...
<Theysen>
haha lol
<HypergolicSkunk>
I wish the game could draw ground texture directly from Google Maps on the fly :p
<Theysen>
EVE ground tex would suffice, if it worked again
<acc>
yeah
<xShadowx>
RSVE
<xShadowx>
or is it RVE >.>
<Theysen>
it's broken in the mod
<xShadowx>
too many acronyms to remember
<Theysen>
EVE broken
<acc>
or RSSVE
<Theysen>
ETO
<gazpachian>
Agathorn: The RD-107 at 5k data units has something close to an hour MTBF mid-burn was my point. If it has dropped down to 208 seconds he's likely way past the rated burn time
<acc>
hm, what I'm gona do? more manned LEO action or unmanned moon action?
<HypergolicSkunk>
oh damn. yeah, only 40 secs > rated burn time >.>
<acc>
definetly need some science points, since research is completely stuck with nothing to do
<xShadowx>
acc: say fuck it and go for manned mars ;p
<acc>
xShadowx: way too early
<Theysen>
^
<Theysen>
Venus Swingby to Mars and back
<acc>
with all the life support and stuff...
<acc>
I'm lacking the tech there. havn't even unlocked the LEM yet
<Theysen>
jeez Ive been looking at too many of those stupid memes where they exaggerate one step after another with those stupid "brain explosions" pictures next to it ..
<CobaltWolf>
you mean the expanding consciousness meme?
<CobaltWolf>
nobody uses it correctly, it's supposed to be the actual reasonable thing at the top and progressively stupider
<Theysen>
jclishman, from where are you launching?
<Pap>
jclishman, yes, but it won't ever get lower than 0.25ish
<Agathorn>
jclishman: well you want the rel incl to be as low as possible btu depending on your ascent profile and yor LV that might me launching a litle bit before or after 0 with the end result being 0 when you get to orbit
<jclishman>
Theysen: KSC
<jclishman>
Thanks all
<Agathorn>
holy crap that was almost english
<Agathorn>
bad fingers
<jclishman>
I got the gist :)
<Agathorn>
typically I launch a bit early because the ascent profile will lower it more
<Theysen>
do a dogled from KSC if you want to be exactly at 0°
<jclishman>
also jesus, 10fps on the pad
<jclishman>
fak
<Theysen>
ouch
<Agathorn>
if I launched at 0 it would be worse by the time I got there :)
<jclishman>
my computer tower is making noises
<acc>
never a good sign
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<blowfish>
10 fps, ouch!
<blowfish>
KSP physics can use GPU acceleration now, at least on Nvidia GPUs, right?
<jclishman>
its only 70 parts too
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<jclishman>
keep forgetting to disable TF for sims
<Agathorn>
tf really isn't designed to be enabled and disabled all the time
<Agathorn>
upcomig version of krash will hopefully let you disable them properly during sims
<Agathorn>
see that link I posted above
<Pap>
Yeah, looks promising Agathorn
<jclishman>
Agathorn: so what do
<Pap>
jclishman, don't know if this helps you, but I always test in small parts, like if I am curious if my Upper Stage is staged correctly and working, I just start KRASH already in orbit to test that, then continue building afterwards
<Agathorn>
jclishman: right now yo just risk failures in sims :)
<jclishman>
Pap: testing in orbit messes with remote tech
<jclishman>
no connection and such
<Pap>
jclishman, nah, that is because you start in the middle of the ocean and there is noting to connect to, time warp till you get near the coast and it connects
<jclishman>
will try that
<Pap>
I also am a dirty feature and play with the RT ability to point Antennas without a connection, I just don't want to ruin a mission or revert to a quicksave because I forgot to hit a damn button
<Agathorn>
you're a dirty feature? oh my
<Agathorn>
Pap I do that too by the way because honeslty I think it is more realistic
<Pap>
how the hell did feature come up instead of cheater, lol
<Agathorn>
probes typically have low power omni antemnas that can be used for sending simple commands
<Pap>
Once I start playing around with kRPC, then maybe, but not yet
<jclishman>
nooo not enough to orbit
<jclishman>
dammit
<jclishman>
so, i've got spin-up solids
<jclishman>
but they just cause the kick stage to start tumbling
<Agathorn>
if you are tumbling when you activate the spin motors, then it sounds liek they aren't setup properly
<Pap>
jclishman, are you spinning yourself up and then after you are at spin, firing the SRM's?
<Pap>
hmm, do you have a really bad center of mass and there is a lot of torque?
<jclishman>
directly on CoM
<Pap>
<------out of ideas
<jclishman>
worked better with 4 SRMs tho
<jclishman>
compared to 2
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<HypergolicSkunk>
yesterday I tried an unguided spin-stabilized approach, but the spin only worked the first time. I had to quickload, and then the vehicle would start to tumble, more and more.. everytime. so.. no more spin-stabilized stuff for me :P
<Agathorn>
are you using RCS build aid?
<Agathorn>
it should be able to indicate if you will have off axis rotation
<jclishman>
RCS build aid doesn't seem to like working with these
<acc>
hey Pap
<Pap>
hey acc
<acc>
launching Cheeze 3 on a Blackhat IV-R2. sounds not silly at all
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<Pap>
lol
<Pap>
Ah rsparkyc just the guy I wanted to see!
<rsparkyc>
oh really?
<rsparkyc>
on a call now, then dinner, might be on more later though if i can't answer now
<Pap>
The Procedural Avionics have the menu to make the different shapes like a regular Procedural Tank, but it doesn't work, is that intended?
<acc>
Pap: it's glitchy, clhange it again, then it should work
<acc>
change
<acc>
usually that fixes the shape issue
<jclishman>
procedural avionics is RP-0 now?
<jclishman>
cool
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<Pap>
thanks acc
<Pap>
jclishman, yes, and new contracts as well
<jclishman>
\o/
<jclishman>
contracts for what?
<Pap>
Just more expanded contract system that includes things like new types of satellite orbits
<jclishman>
oh, neat
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<Pap1723>
acc: What mission are you running now?
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<jclishman>
aight thats enough ksp for a day
<jclishman>
more frustrating than fun now
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<Pap1723>
yep jclishman, that happens sometimes!
<jclishman>
Pap1723: Want to make sure that I don't get burned out
<Pap1723>
Yep
<Pap1723>
When I start to get frustrated, it usually means it is time to start a new save with the updated stuff that I have modded
<Pap1723>
then I change a little more, eventually get frustrated again an rewind
<JPLRepo>
acc: I am here now.
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<acc>
JPLRepo: already solved, but thanks :)
<acc>
Pap1723: doin lunar orbiter (unmanned) and impacter again
<acc>
for the moneyz
<acc>
ant the science
<acc>
launch was fine. centaur was like 30m/s short for TLI
<acc>
but that's fine, the probe has some extra dV
<acc>
only problem is the centaur was supposed to be the impacter :D
<acc>
but that's also fine. I should be able to get a low cost impacter there in time, before the contract runs out
<Pap1723>
lol
<Pap1723>
Always something with these missions, have to find ways to improvise
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<acc>
it'll work out :)
<acc>
so far there was only one contract I failed
* acc
blames the people in management and R&D
<acc>
:>
<Pap1723>
lol
<Pap1723>
Have you messed around with any of the satellite missions?
<acc>
a few, yes. but they're easy. was a human orbit one
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<rsparkyc>
Pap1723: yeah, acc is right about the shapes acting weird
<rsparkyc>
if someone gets bored, they're more than welcome to take a look
<Agathorn>
how much effect does drag have on a LVs velocity at a given point during ascent? Is it small enough that it can effectively be ignored in speed readout without anyone worrying about it? Or is it siginifcant enough to be missed?
<rsparkyc>
I would think at max q it would have a pretty big effect
<acc>
more or less, depends on the shape
<Agathorn>
trying to determine how much I can get away with math wise in my game since i'm no math expert
<acc>
Agathorn: let ferram4 consult you heh
<rsparkyc>
for real
<Agathorn>
heh no
<Agathorn>
he is way to smart
<Agathorn>
I understand like .1% of what comes out of his mouth
<Agathorn>
he also seems allergtic to apprximation :)
<Agathorn>
he's a good engineer
<acc>
yeah, but I think he could help you to make a simplified thing
<blowfish>
unless you have a really high liftoff TWR, drag is probably not worth thinking about
<blowfish>
oh, for a different game
<acc>
like that FAR light: NEAR
<Agathorn>
higher TWR means more drag? I guess more velocity means more drag?
<blowfish>
for rockets specifically, you can probably make a reasonable approximation of drag based on radius/length and leave it at that
<Agathorn>
I figure all rockets have more or less the same general blunt conic shape
<blowfish>
higher TWR generally means higher max Q
<Agathorn>
blowfish: yeah thats what I will shoot for if I have to. my original approach was just to determine if the effect was large enough to even worry about
<acc>
maybe simplified multiplier for the cones
<rsparkyc>
yep, faster in the thicker parts of the atmosphere
<Agathorn>
is dynamic pressure just a function of speed and altitude?
<rsparkyc>
speed and air density
<Agathorn>
well ok but air density is a function of altitude isn't it?
<acc>
atmospheric pressure at the given altitude
<rsparkyc>
yeah, they have an inverse relationship
<acc>
but I couldn't math it either heh
<rsparkyc>
pretty much speed/altitude * some constalnt
<Agathorn>
presumably boosters increase drag
<Agathorn>
so yeah I should probably try to model it in a simplified maner
<blowfish>
q = 0.5 * rho * v^2
<rsparkyc>
that looks right
<Agathorn>
rho?
<blowfish>
density
<Agathorn>
how the heck does density come to be rho ? :p
<Agathorn>
you engineers
<ferram4>
D was taken for distance.
<blowfish>
I come from a physics background..
<Agathorn>
:) Hi ferram4
<ferram4>
Trust me, I have no idea for so of these things.
<ferram4>
Momentum is p because reasons?!
<Agathorn>
you just memorize them form school huh?
<ferram4>
You don't try to.
<Agathorn>
I assumed momemntum was P because of some latin word
<ferram4>
The formulae come up so often that you can't help.
<ferram4>
No, not P. p
<ferram4>
Very different.
<ferram4>
P is pressure.
<Agathorn>
lol right you got me
<ferram4>
Anyway, your question.
<blowfish>
I suspect in many cases people just chose the next available letter and it stuck
<ferram4>
It depends on how large the LV is.
<ferram4>
If it's a sounding rocket, or Scout, it matters very much.
<ferram4>
If it's something the scale of Titan or larger, it is rather negligible.
<Agathorn>
Huh that is backwards of what I would have thought
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<ferram4>
If it's Saturn V or larger, you can basially round it to 0.
<ferram4>
Square-cube law.
<Agathorn>
wouldn't the larger LV have a larger cross section thus more drag?
<ferram4>
Drag goes with area, cross-section and surface.
<ferram4>
Mass (and thus, thrust, because necessity) goes with volume.
<blowfish>
I guess it's worth asking how much the overall drag coefficient varies from rocket to rocket
<blowfish>
(ignoring AoA for now I guess)
<ferram4>
Eh, as an approximation?
<Agathorn>
Approximation is all I care about
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<Agathorn>
I'm just trying to make things reali-ish, not real
<Agathorn>
like close enough for suspension of disbelief basically
<Agathorn>
ascents are going to be on rails anyway so I *know* the flight profile
<ferram4>
Based on just cross-sectional area facing forward, I'd bullshit that it's about 0.3 at Mach 0, ~1.2-1.5 at Mach 1, and probably reducing to something near 0.7-1 at Mach infinity.
<ferram4>
Doesn't increase until Mach ~0.6-0.8
<ferram4>
Very peaky at Mach 1.
<ferram4>
Anyway.
* soundnfury
gives ferram4 a Prandtl singularity :)
<ferram4>
That doesn't even exist.
<soundnfury>
ikr
<ferram4>
Agathorn, smarter solution: build something that doesn't appear to be bullshit in KSP + FAR.
<ferram4>
Launch it.
<ferram4>
Record Cd.
<ferram4>
Profit.
<Agathorn>
lol
<ferram4>
Don't add fins.
<ferram4>
It'll fuck up your cross-section.
<Agathorn>
well the needs to be some dynamicism here because I will be allowing the player to have some level of design control
<Agathorn>
at the very least I imagine I will need to account for booster configurations
<ferram4>
Calculating the end-on drag at Mach infinity is very trivial to do at least.
<Agathorn>
reading the page on drag coefficent on wiki right now
<Agathorn>
what does mach infinity mean?
<blowfish>
you don't even need to launch right? Just use FAR's analysis in the VAB
<Agathorn>
just above a certain speed we treat it as infinite?
<ferram4>
Pressure coefficient is equal to Cp = 2*cos^2(theta) Integrate over the front surface, get Cd for that shape.
<ferram4>
Yes, ~Mach 3-9, depending on the shape.
<ferram4>
Mach 5 is a good middle ground.
<Agathorn>
see you and I have very different ideas of "trivial". When you start talking about intgrations it leaves the trivial category in my plebe brain
<ferram4>
Basically, a lot of things stop depending so much on Mach number at higher Mach numbers.
<ferram4>
Mostly density, pressure coefficient and flow-shape related things.
<Agathorn>
interesting
<ferram4>
Temperature and pressure itself have other ideas.
<Agathorn>
why does the drag coefficient increase so much at the higher speeds?
<ferram4>
Higher speed relative to speed of sound means that pressure waves can't be felt as far upstream as before. This results in more severe pressure changes (thus resulting in large density changes) throughout the flow.
<ferram4>
That means more work being done on the fluid by the vehicle, and because work = energy, that energy loss acts as drag.
<Agathorn>
interesting
<ferram4>
Then shocks are fundamentally the same thing, but with lots of entropy increase in the process. Which makes it worse.