<soundnfury>
Agathorn: all my jokes do that. I've gotten used to that
<soundnfury>
for me, a joke is a success if people groan in pain
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<Agathorn>
:)
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<Starwaster>
ferram4, what happens if stock joint autostrutting gets turned on with KJR? Anything bad?
<Pap>
Any reason why the FASA Mercury Pod only supports up to 5 T Avionics?
NathanKell|AWAY is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
Pap: Because it'd be weird to have a service module for Mercury heavier than 5t
<Pap>
o/ NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<Pap>
Ah, so it is only designed to control the SM and it was intended to have a separate Avionics unit for the core?
<NathanKell>
LV controls its own avionics, payload controls payload avionics, yes
<NathanKell>
s/control/contain/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: LV contains its own avionics, payload controls payload avionics, yes
<NathanKell>
s/control/contain/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: LV contains its own avionics, payload controls payload avionics, yes
<Pap>
And that is why I ask questions, thanks for the answer
<NathanKell>
:)
<Pap>
I am guessing that when I first started coming around here, I annoyed people like stratochief|away with all of my questions, now at least I have contributed some things so I can be anooying, but helpful
<NathanKell>
Yeah, generally each 'section' has its own avionics: payload (pod or probe); upper stage (the upper stage guidance parts), booster (usually on the second stage of a 2-stage setup, or on the first stage if only one stage like Atlas or Thor)
<Pap>
NathanKell: now that FAR is updated, I am sure we are going to be nearing a RP-0 release for 1.2.2, do you think the new tech tree I made should be the one we use going forward, or do you think I should instead create the one that was designed by Niemand303 back in the day: https://www.dropbox.com/s/44f9hguyumvgi4y/Niemand%27s%20Tech%20Tree.png?dl=0
<NathanKell>
I'm afraid I have not had a chance to look at your tree yet, but I am looking forward to doing so soon. So I really can't comment on the trees as such. But as a general rule I always lean towards "go with what people care about / are working on actively" regardless :)
<Agathorn>
Evening NathanKell
<NathanKell>
Pap: Do you have an image of yours or is it cfg?
<NathanKell>
o/ Agathorn
<Pap>
Let me get it NathanKell
<NathanKell>
"just" <<< that's actually the more important part of course :D
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: are you interested in being kept up to date on things I post about Stellar Trail?
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<Pap>
Agathorn: that looks awesome! Where did you get that type of image for the X-405 and are you going to be able to find enough for the others?
<NathanKell>
Ah, I meant have you considered splitting tiers up into subtiers
<Agathorn>
its um..not the x-405 :p Just a standin for now lol
<Agathorn>
I think its actually a J-2
<NathanKell>
It's a J-2, yes.
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: sounds like a good idea
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: I don't care. It looks cool
<Agathorn>
Eventual goal is that the game will render a snapshot of the in game model
<Pap>
NathanKell: I definitely have looked at that, I was thinking about a different way to do it, but didn't have a great idea
<Pap>
Rocketry could be 5 total splits
<Pap>
Hypergolic, Cryogenic, Solid, Nuclear, Electric
<NathanKell>
Ah, no, I meant timewise
<NathanKell>
like how even by 59 they had upgraded non-prototype 79s and 89s
<NathanKell>
but definitely worth splitting out lower and upper stage nodes, that may be another way to make each cost less early on
<NathanKell>
I gotta go eat though, I'll be back in a couple hours :)
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AFK
<Agathorn>
I'm still working on the bottom properties panel.. There is mnore to do there, plus I need to figure out how i'm goign to display sub-component data in the properties
<Agathorn>
in the case of the engine, it has sub components for propellant
<Agathorn>
Then I have to build a sort of scrollable tile view button widget thingy from scratch :)
<Agathorn>
which should prove interesting
<Pap>
I like the overall look of it, the only critique I would say is add a space after COMPONENTS | ENGINES to separate them out a little bit
<Pap>
The UI coloring and style I am a really big fan of
<Pap>
Reminds me of the colors from this shitty KSP mod I use called Test Flight
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<stratochief|away>
since this week is already a short week, and I already have recreational plans for thursday and friday, I may also set aside a bit of time to look at an RO/RP-0 official release this week, and complex PRs like the contracts and new tech tree
<stratochief|away>
(today was a vacation day here in canada, thus the 'short week')
<Pap>
Nice!
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<stratochief|away>
*groan* why do I bother commenting on Reddit? I can hope someone(s) gain some new useful info from what I say, but I always just remember the rude assholes who respond...
<stratochief|away>
stupid flawed human memory/perception systems
stratochief|away is now known as stratochief|going
<stratochief|going>
but there was a TIL about CANDU (nuclear) tech, so I always feel it is my duty to gently nudge the foaming thorium fanboys back in the direction of reality
<Pap>
I'm not positive that any of those things you just said were real words, so I am going to agree with you
<stratochief|going>
lol. come on, you're from/in Chicago, home of the atomic bomb. you should know -some- nuclear words. at least the word nuclear, for example :P
<stratochief|going>
and in that case, it sounds like you've never been accosted by Thorium fanboys, you lucky bastard
<Pap>
I know nuclear, I was actually at the University of Chicago Hospital with my daughter recently and was trying to explain to my wife about the Atomic Pile that was there
<stratochief|going>
Thorium being a material that is 3 times more abundant than Uranium, never been turned into a bomb, reactor concepts exist which are ~50% more efficient, and produce more fissile material than they consume. interesting potential tech, just lots of fanboys who don't see/know the downsides, and expect it to sweep the world within 5 years...
<stratochief|going>
cool! yep, that first critical pile on a squash court story is a great one
<Agathorn>
stratochief|going: and what a beautiful day off it has been too. This whole weekend but today especially. Its like mother natures knew today was the unoficial start of summer in canada
<Pap>
stratochief|going: that all sounds great, so what are the drawbacks?
<stratochief|going>
Agathorn: yeah, we've had a few days nice enough that I just left windows open with no screns (bugs haven't come around yet). summer is coming
<Agathorn>
I had to pull my AC out of the closest yesterday
<Pap>
Are you both "proper" Canadians that like to fish?
<stratochief|going>
Pap: no commercial reactor design exists yet, let along has been constructed. nuclear reprocessing is basically entirely illegal in the US for bad historical reasons (damn Jimmy Carter)
<Agathorn>
stupid vancouver doesn't believe in central heat and air
<Pap>
Ah, so one of those things that sounds great theoretically, but is untested on a large scale
<stratochief|going>
Agathorn: make the individual units buy their own equipment and pay the power bill. who's ever heard of efficiency/convienience?
<Agathorn>
well i'm an american so I can't be a proper canadian.. plus no i'm not much a fan of fishing :)
<stratochief|going>
Pap: yep, untested, but certainly do-able, just no government is pushing for it except China.
<Pap>
Agathorn: just apologize a lot, even when it is your fault. Drink maple syrup for lunch and you are a proper Canadian
<stratochief|going>
I enjoy fishing, just haven't been able to do it since I left Saskatchewan ~7 years ago
<Agathorn>
I bought a "portable" unit after my first summer where I died of the heat. Problem is it has a hose that has to run out the window so basically I am trying to cool an entire apartment with a small one room portable unit with a window open :D
<Agathorn>
I set it at its lowest and it just runs constanlty barely keeping up
<stratochief|going>
the 'liquid fuel, molten salt for cooling' concept is particularly great for nuclear reactors, because it makes them so they can't melt down or lose coolant to steam. China is realy hot on nuclear right now, building like a dozen reactors of every type, even experimental types. like Nuclear Noah :P
<stratochief|going>
but, flip side is molten salt is corrosive, so lots of engineering demo work must first be done to fine-tune reactor alloys that both don't absorb lots of neutrons, and also withstand corrosion really well, like 20-40 years w/o any corrosion level good
<Pap>
lol, Nuclear Noah
<stratochief|going>
and just because something new has lots of upsides, doesn't guarentee it will be cheap enough to commercialize and compete with existing power sources that get to just throw carbon into the air, or cut out when they feel like it (looking at you, solar and wind!)
<stratochief|going>
yep. China. is even building half a dozen CANDU (canada's design) reactors, to re-use used fuel from american/european style reactors, which was never done in canada but a function it has always been capable of in principle
Agathorn is now known as Agathorn|Food
<stratochief|going>
and also deploying around a dozen pebble bed, gas cooled reactors in the next ~5 years, which is something that hasn't really been commercialized before. they hope to solve the problem of expensive pellet fuel by mass producing fuel, so to do that they need to create a demand for lots of that fuel
<stratochief|going>
anyway, china is great in that regard, willing to experiment with new technology. innovate, work out the bugs. I wish I knew chinese :P
<stratochief|going>
anyway, sleep
stratochief|going is now known as stratosleep
<Pap>
Good night stratosleep
Pap is now known as Pap|Sleep
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<NathanKell>
o/
<xShadowx>
o/
<Pap>
o/ welcome back
<NathanKell>
heya!
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<NathanKell>
Ok, so can you walk me through the first few nodes in the tree?
<xShadowx>
well theres roots
<xShadowx>
then a trunk
<xShadowx>
and some burls, then limbs
<xShadowx>
:|
<Pap>
Sure, the first 3 nodes are currently the same as in the normal RP-0 tree
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<Pap>
There is Early Rocketry = 10, Early Flight Control = 10 and Early Materials Science = 10
<Pap>
Then it gets expensive fast
<Pap>
Tier 2 is basically 20 for each node
<NathanKell>
Ah. I'd definitely recommend the first few nodes costing no more than 2-3 science.
<Pap>
Do you think it is better to have more, but cheaper nodes, or to have less more expensive nodes overall?
<NathanKell>
Have just a couple parts in each--like separate the X-405 and the AJ10 into booster and upper nodes
<NathanKell>
more but cheaper
<NathanKell>
otherwise you have to warp years to unlock
<NathanKell>
Even a 1-point node takes like 8 months to unlock
<NathanKell>
(even once you invest in research a bit, IIRC)
<Pap>
OK, I can't remember, does KCT unlock Techs concurrently?
<NathanKell>
no
<NathanKell>
sequentially :)
<NathanKell>
(thanks to our request of Magico)
<CobaltWolf>
ok, time to remake the mk 1-2 pod...
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<Pap>
OK, so your thoguht is that it might take 4 months to research a node and then 4 months for the next one, but that is better than warping 8 months for 1 node
<Pap>
s/thoguht/thought
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: OK, so your thought is that it might take 4 months to research a node and then 4 months for the next one, but that is better than warping 8 months for 1 node
<NathanKell>
yep, because you can start using (and flight-proving) the first node's parts, but more importantly _there's something for the player to do_ :)
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: anymore streams planned?:)
<NathanKell>
yeah, RO/RP-0's kinda bit me again :]
<NathanKell>
we'll see, cuz I'm busy, but...yeah :)
<xShadowx>
if you do goto 1.2, dont forget proc avionics :)
<NathanKell>
definitely
<NathanKell>
I need to try out Pap's contracts and tree :)
<xShadowx>
and make that mars colony :)
<Pap>
The tree can wait, the contracts are more important I think
<Pap>
The tree needs a little more fleshing out I would say based on some conversations
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<NathanKell>
ok. I do at least want to try with some engine nodes broken up (a bunch of times we have multiple configs for an engine in a single node, that's bad...)
<NathanKell>
But if the tree can support the first 10 years of gameplay that's mostly all I care about playing ^_^
<Pap>
Yes, the engine nodes are pretty well spaced now, better than previously for sure
<Pap>
But I think the tree is too expensive overall and not because of the cost of the nodes, but because of the time takes to unlock
<NathanKell>
that's linear with cost, no?
<Agathorn>
wow I ate way too much food
<Pap>
Yes, I meant not because it is too hard to get science, but instead there is too much warping
<Agathorn>
took me nearly 400 days to unlock the first 2 nodes
<Agathorn>
at a time when I didn't really have the funds to be buying upgrade points
<NathanKell>
yeah, so breaking them up a bunch more should help I think...
<Agathorn>
not sure if that is how you want it or not
<NathanKell>
Since we now have the early RD-100 series IIRC, we can have even earlier engine nodes :)
<Agathorn>
breaking them up also allows you to buyu more ndoes which feels more satisgyin
<NathanKell>
Like, an RD-100 / A-10 Engine node, for 1948 tech
<NathanKell>
(or thereabouts)
<Agathorn>
having to grind to get a node kind of sucks..si personally i'd rather have twice as many nodexsz each at half the cost
<NathanKell>
can put the XASR-1 there too
<NathanKell>
Then the RD-103 and NAA75-110 and X-405 and AJ10-27, and then the AJ10-37 and prototype RD-107/8....
<Pap>
Alright, so I created a completely different tree for a NASA mod I was thinking of making
<NathanKell>
(maybe the alcohol LR89 too)
<Pap>
It is easily adaptable to RO instead
<NathanKell>
ah?
<Pap>
1957 throught 1979 are represented by individual years
<Agathorn>
ok time to see if I can create a scrollable grid view
<Pap>
1980 through 2025 by 2 years
<NathanKell>
interesting!
<Pap>
I then have it broken out by major groups...
<Pap>
with smaller subgroups inside of it
<Pap>
So Command & Control (Command Modules, Satellites & Probes), Upper Stages (Solid, Hypergolic, Cryo), Launch Vehicles (I will need some ideas for this as I had it broken out by major families i.e Saturn, Atlas, etc)
<NathanKell>
Upper stages are really (imo) Avionics, Control Systems, Tanks, and Engines
<Pap>
Which would work as well
<NathanKell>
tanks and engines subtly different from their booster counterparts, but...
<Pap>
In RP-0, how do you really differentiate the tanks with procedurals being so heavily used?
<NathanKell>
You don't, much, just ServiceModule unlocking being the upper-relevant thing
<Pap>
got it
<NathanKell>
it's a shame, really
<NathanKell>
what we desperately need is an assembly line mod
<NathanKell>
maybe someone can sweet-talk rsparkyc into taking it on ^_^
<NathanKell>
xShadowx: Where you have to pay to set up assembly lines for parts (and for completed stages)
<NathanKell>
you can hand-build things, but that gets expensive fast
<NathanKell>
and you have to pay a lot to make a new assembly line for a new diameter of tankage.
<NathanKell>
(length is generally fine)
<xShadowx>
so proc parts just need to cache sizes, doesnt entry cost cover the 'creating new assembly line'?
<xShadowx>
so new size new entry cost to pay ;3
<Pap>
NathanKell: if you come up with ideas for a tree, I can knock it out very quickly, I have a really good workflow
<NathanKell>
Cool! I know generally what I wanted to do with the first tier or two, but beyond that I never really thought much (or, tbh, cared >.> )
<NathanKell>
But that's now a year stale anyway, and subject to y'all's thoughts of course!
<Pap>
brb
<NathanKell>
I definitely do want to break up the starting stuff into multiple nodes as I was mentioning, so players don't fall into warpitis
<NathanKell>
o/
<xShadowx>
lots of sunny blue sky today, world must be ending soon
<NathanKell>
yeah, it's freaky
<Agathorn>
think today was the first time it was in the 70s this year here
<Agathorn>
I think tomorrow is supposed to be even nicer
<xShadowx>
had weird rainy spring extended til like last weekend, usually sunny by like 6-8 weeks ago
<Pap>
back
<NathanKell>
o/
<Pap>
If you have an idea for what you were thinking, shoot it over to me and I think the rest of the tree can be fleshed out based off of that
<Pap>
^ since you don't care ;)
<NathanKell>
:D
<Agathorn>
huh odd
<Agathorn>
RectTransform isn't a thing
<xShadowx>
that sounds....painful
<Agathorn>
lol
<NathanKell>
My main goal with the original tree was to allow for non-historical choices while still keeping a historical feel. That's obviously hard. :]
* xShadowx
enjoyed it
<NathanKell>
So that meant doing stuff like putting Merlins (early Merlins) in TL6 or even 5, because they used that level of tech/performance.
<Agathorn>
My problem with the tech tree and RP-0 in general is it never gets fleshed out past the first 10 tears :D
<Agathorn>
freudian slip?
<Agathorn>
s/tears/years
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: My problem with the tech tree and RP-0 in general is it never gets fleshed out past the first 10 years :D
<Pap>
yeah Agathorn that is something I didn't like as well, that is what I was trying to fix with my tree
<Pap>
The problem is with how KSP works. Once you get to say Saturn technology, opening up more efficient engines that can carry less is not really appealing in a gameplay sense
<Agathorn>
for me personally once you get into the more advanced tech it isn't about upgrades to engines and such its about op[ening up new technologies for new missions, and then pushing future tech
<Agathorn>
orbital stations and habitats somewhere not around Earth.. Colonies, outposts etc
<xShadowx>
and making mars colony
<Agathorn>
its also why games like BASPM and BARIS tend to have limited value to me... once I get to the moon there isn't muich else to do
<Agathorn>
partly why I am making Stellar Trail.. to explore those wild ideas that were on the draswing board, and to go past the moon into near future exploration
<xShadowx>
and not being like humans who goto the moon then quit to go play with twitter because space isnt profitable enough to care about
<Pap>
I agree with those sentiments
<Agathorn>
Good :)
<Agathorn>
Make it so number one
<Pap>
One of the issues is other than some CX Aerospace parts, there is not many options for RO for Stations and especially Surface Bases
<NathanKell>
It's awesome you guys actually care about the later eras. :)
<NathanKell>
yeah, there's that too--not much point in empty nodes :(
<Pap>
We have NathanKell and stratosleep to take care of everything up to say Skylab and then we can handle the rest
<Agathorn>
Its partly the onus of main RO to start getting newer stuff in there as well
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: what later era? humans fucking quit, there is no future era :P
<Agathorn>
yeah those two think space stops at the Moon :D
<Agathorn>
actual strato is pushing Mars now so that's good
<Pap>
Yeah, we should really look into / talk to Angel125 who makes Pathfinder, he does some nice stuff, no clue if he would have an RO issue
<Pap>
/s/issue/interest
<Agathorn>
But I thinbk NathanKell's heart is still firmly fixed around 1960
<xShadowx>
thats because there is nothing after the 60s
<xShadowx>
-.-
<NathanKell>
Oh, indeed, that's why I'm so happy other people care! :)
<Agathorn>
Post Mortem Equine
<Pap>
Alright, I have to sleep now, work in 7 hours, good talking to you all tonight and I am excited to see some of the new stuff that will be coming up!
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<Agathorn>
night!
<NathanKell>
yikes! Have a good one!
<NathanKell>
I'll try to make some cogent thoughts for you :)
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<Pap|WasUpTooLate>
I should mention that I have an 11 month old, so 6 hours of sleep is normal!
<Pap|WasUpTooLate>
Ok, goodnight
<Agathorn>
should probably get to sleep soon myself but I hate to stop coding when I have the energy to keep going
<Agathorn>
So NathanKell... I assume you are learning the Source engine now?
<Agathorn>
That's what Valve uses isn't it?
<NathanKell>
I really can't speak to what I'm coding in. Although I can mention The Lab (minigames) are in Unity.
<NathanKell>
so Valve _has_ released on Unity before.
<Agathorn>
ahh ok - yeah wasn't trying to pry anything
<Agathorn>
I just thought Valve only used Source
<NathanKell>
I'd be stupid not to learn Source2 tho.
<Agathorn>
Never used it myself
* xShadowx
just hopes mods will use c#
<Agathorn>
Basically just Unity and Unreal for me.. well and a tiny bit of CryEngine
<NathanKell>
Never touched CryEngine myself
<NathanKell>
Did some modding on UT and Deus Ex way back when tho
<xShadowx>
ever touched unreal?
<xShadowx>
>:)
<Agathorn>
my first modding was Quake I think
<Agathorn>
mid 90s? Think it was Quake
<Agathorn>
That's what got me started. I added scorcery :)
<Agathorn>
ability to cast spells and throw fireballs lol
<xShadowx>
my first modding was ksp.....every game i wrote code for before that i had source :|
<Agathorn>
either Neverwinter Nights or KSP was my largest mod work..not sure which
<NathanKell>
Also Flight Sim Toolkit, but that was a game maker rather than modding a game. Although these days it'd basically be modding
<Agathorn>
not even sure what I would want to mod into civ
<Agathorn>
the lines between modding and creating are kind of gettinb lurred
<NathanKell>
KSP is a mod, doncha know :P
<xShadowx>
my first professional coding, was a couple months after i started toying with vb.net to make 3rd party tools for a game (standalone so not a mod) and cracking all the games hidden secrets, so devs through an NDA and the source at me to add more secrets :|
<Agathorn>
lol yeah saw that
<Agathorn>
but to be fair.. full games were made as mods of UT
<Agathorn>
Total Conversion mods really started blurring the lines
<Agathorn>
and a lot of Unreal 3 games were just total conversions
<NathanKell>
yeah
<Agathorn>
and look at how many modderes make the move to actual games
<Agathorn>
the lines really aren't far apart any more
<NathanKell>
And Unity's really close to modding
<NathanKell>
just no base game to mod
<Agathorn>
Unity IS modding by older standards
<Agathorn>
essentially
<Agathorn>
just throw in some assets and write some scripts
<Agathorn>
its like exactly what I did in the quake days
<Agathorn>
just like you saod no base game functionality
<Agathorn>
of course the difference between messing around like that and making a full fledged game that people want to play is a bit larger
<xShadowx>
sarb's tool for debugging, uses the exe from unity install, and it starts ksp suggesting the exe contains no ksp code, and all the ksp classes are in dlls, so ksp must be a mod :P
<NathanKell>
the exe is just a Unity player with a different icon, yes
<NathanKell>
that's why the x64 hack worked too
<Agathorn>
yep
<NathanKell>
that's how Unity works
<Agathorn>
essentially Unity is the game and your game is the mod :)
<Agathorn>
interestingly though Unity is starting to modularize things
<Agathorn>
they want to start breaking functionality of the base "Unity Game" into modules itself
<Agathorn>
so Unity is turning Unity into a mod :)
<Agathorn>
They're also working on a visual scripting system like Unreal's Blueprints FYI.. really looking forward to that
<Agathorn>
I think ocne they get that we will stop using Unreal at work and switch to Unity
<xShadowx>
i find it funny when people say mods are slow, and adding the feature to stock game makes it better :|
* xShadowx
headdesk
<Agathorn>
Unity versions of Sequencer and Blueprint were really the only two holdups for the switch
<xShadowx>
even had more than 1 ksp moderator tell me that......
<Agathorn>
hmm.. I wonder if child game objects are stored in order or if the returned order is random
<Agathorn>
probably shouldn't count on order but that makes it more complicated
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<Agathorn>
oh yay it should match
<Agathorn>
"GetChild should return the proper order so GetChild(0) should be the same object that returns 0 from GetSiblingIndex()." :D
<Agathorn>
that makes my code a lot easier
<NathanKell>
yes, since the UI does vis order by child order
<NathanKell>
but be warned, setting the index is HELLA expensive.
<Agathorn>
I don't need to change the index
<NathanKell>
then you're fine :)
<Agathorn>
just need to lop off or add on to the end of the list
<NathanKell>
Oh, wait....please tell me you're not using old-GUI
<Agathorn>
I want to re-use existing ones for perf
<Agathorn>
hell no
<NathanKell>
then you will need to at some point, no?
<NathanKell>
Or I guess you're doing it all in the editor, not VS
<Agathorn>
not understanding you
<Agathorn>
I am writing a grid view
<NathanKell>
yeah. And if you have sprites on top of the grid lines, for example, better be sure they have a higher index number
<NathanKell>
...I think. Better to ask Jim or Mike.
<Agathorn>
and I want to reuse existing cells objects as opposed to remaking new ones each refresh
<NathanKell>
I don't really do UI.
<Agathorn>
the whole thing is flat so shouldn't be an issue
<Agathorn>
pretty sure this will work :)
<NathanKell>
cool
<Agathorn>
I just need to truncate my children if I have more preexisting cells than my new list
<Agathorn>
or add on to the end if I have more in the list - but theyre all at the same layer
<Agathorn>
Layer is probably the wrong word but not sure the right one
<Agathorn>
hmm hit a snag.. setting a UI objects position via script seems to be counter intuitive
<Agathorn>
the rect.x and rect.y aren't what I expect them to be
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<NathanKell>
o/
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AWAY
<Agathorn>
also can't seem to set a rect at all. hmm
<Agathorn>
ahh theres a method for doing that
<Agathorn>
well suprisingly my grid view almost works.. not bad for first run through but getting late so I should call it quits for tonight
<Agathorn>
le sigh
<Agathorn>
I swear everytime, EVERY TIME, I use Math.Min or Math.Max I get them backward
<Agathorn>
anyway
<Agathorn>
bed
<Agathorn>
night all
<acc>
g'night Agathorn
<acc>
g'mornin acc
<acc>
:D
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<Sigma88>
0/
<acc>
hey Sigma88
<Sigma88>
;)
<Theysen>
mornin'
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] PhineasFreak opened pull request #1642: Merlin 1 global engine config updates (master...RO-Merlin-1-Global-Config-Updates) https://git.io/vHLBH
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<Sigma88>
hmmm
<Sigma88>
I had never notice how small the sun is as seen from earth
<Pap>
rsparkyc: NathanKell|AWAY and I were talking about you last night
<rsparkyc>
uh oh
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: which error? the one with "ArithmeticException: NAN" ?
<Pap>
He was saying how wonderful you are, and how wonderful it would be if you would create an Assembly Line mod for RO
<rsparkyc>
stratochief: yeah
<rsparkyc>
Assembly Line?
<rsparkyc>
leave me some details, i gotta run to my daughters last day of school party
<Pap>
o/ stratochief
<Pap>
stratochief: while you are merging PR's, the SSTU tank diameter fixes from acc work absolutely fine in game. I have used them rather extensively without issue
<stratochief>
o/ Pap. thanks, good to know. did you place that testing feedback on the PR itself?
<Pap>
I am almost positive that I did, if not, I will add it now
<stratochief>
new stovetop espresso machine from Value Villiage (thrift shop) didn't explode and kill me (Y)
<Pap>
lol!
<stratochief>
always a risky proposition when you're dealing with pressurized steam
<Pap>
yep, I would set that to run and go into another room for a little while
<stratochief>
you know you're getting towards the end of a paper when it suggests things like "how about we use liquid lead to cool this reactor" and "lets wrap a blanket of high level nuclear waste around our fusion reactor!"
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<Pap>
Hunt for the Red October they are firing guns in the missle bay, not a great idea
<Pap>
Even though I am aware that you cannot trigger a nuclear weapon with a bullet, but there are a lot of explosive things in a missile room
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<Agathorn>
actually takes a lot to set off a nuclear warhead
<Agathorn>
and it isn't even a matter off "setting it off" so much as a precise controlled implosion needed to start the chain reaction
<Agathorn>
if a warhead if "safed" you could probably stick it on an ICBM and launch it into space and let it hit the ground and it still wouln't do anythign else other than kinetic damage
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<Pap>
And that is mind boggling to me Agathorn
<Agathorn>
yeah it was for me as well
<Pap>
I mean I understand it intellectually, but it is crazy how precise it needs to be that even after it is correctly built and designed to explode, that it will not unless purposely caused to
<Agathorn>
Tom Clancy does an amazing job of explaining it in... The Sum of All Fears iirc
<Agathorn>
the book of course not the film
<Pap>
Yes, that book is where I learned a ton about it, and also why the nuke in the book "failed" as well
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<Agathorn>
acually in the book it failed due to... I'm going to get this wrong because I can't recall the precise element..but contamination of some element..
<rsparkyc>
i need to finish that one
<Agathorn>
or did you mean originally the bomb that was on the aircaft when it crashed
<Agathorn>
that didn't go off because yeah it wasn't armed
<Agathorn>
rsparkyc: its one of the best in that series imho
<rsparkyc>
i've read all the ones before it
<Agathorn>
sum of all fears, debt of honor, and and.. crap one sec
<Agathorn>
and The Bear and the Dragon
<Agathorn>
are probably my 3 favorite
<Agathorn>
and Rainbow Six though that one is tangential to the overall series. Was always disapointed there was only the one book
<rsparkyc>
so, in order of read: Rainbox Six, Without Remorse, Patriot Games, Red Rabbit, The Hunt for Red October, The Cardinal of the Kremlin, Clear and Present Danger, and part of The Sum of All Fears
<Agathorn>
well Rainbow Six comes later in chrono order
<stratochief>
still, a nuclear core is blanketted in shaped charges, which is a goodly amount of conventional explosives
<Agathorn>
I actually haven't read Without Remorse
<rsparkyc>
ahh, yeah, i started with that one, and that got me into the series
<rsparkyc>
so that's when i started at the begining
<rsparkyc>
Without Remorse gives you more of a back story of Kelly/Clark
<rsparkyc>
which is kinda nice as he shows up in the other books
<stratochief>
Agathorn: I should read that book then, I dig all things atomic. probably containminated Plutonium. you only want Pu-239 to make a bomb, other forms of Pu (240,241,242, etc.) are less than ideal, although the other odd numbered ones are sometimes ok as well
<Agathorn>
rsparkyc: yeah I keep meaning to
<rsparkyc>
it's funny, because I hated reading as a kid
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<rsparkyc>
but now I can check out those books on my kindle from the library
<stratochief>
plutonium production is somewhat complicated, and turning it into a bomb is harder. having a moderate level understanding of the processes involved is what makes me highly critical of people who equate any nuclear power system with a weapon material production system
<stratochief>
I generally opt for audiobooks, although I still read about half and half audio vs paper/text
<Agathorn>
I read several hours a day every day
<Agathorn>
sometimes more
<rsparkyc>
yeah, my dad worked at a nuclear plant, he always laughed at the people that equated it with a bomb
<Agathorn>
I probably re-read the entire tom clancy novels at least once a year
<rsparkyc>
holy crap
<stratochief>
Agathorn: well, like, general background reading including news and work, or fiction/recreational reading
<Agathorn>
fiction
<Agathorn>
I actually crack open a book, or my kindle, and read fiction several hours a day :)
<stratochief>
Agathorn: christ. you need to get out more then :P Or at least switch to listening to them, so you can go for walks/bikes while you do it :P
<rsparkyc>
have you read through the Ender's Game series?
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: which one? there are like... 2-3 sub-threads of that series.
<Agathorn>
stratochief: you can read outside :)
<Agathorn>
rsparkyc: no just seen the movie
<rsparkyc>
I read enders game, and started (was it speaker without a voice?)
<rsparkyc>
ender's game was great
<stratochief>
Ender himself, Ender's brother, the series about the super-kid that was part of his squad
<rsparkyc>
ahh
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: Speaker for the Dead
<rsparkyc>
ahh, yes
<Pap>
rsparkyc: the other in the Ender series is better than Enders Game IMO
<Pap>
Also that order that you posted for the Clancy books is not what I would use
<rsparkyc>
it seemed to match up to Agathorn's
<rsparkyc>
at least as far as i've read
<Pap>
Ah, just cause you read Rainbow Six early, the rest is correct
<rsparkyc>
yeah
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: cool to have family in the nuclear industry. power stations produce enough Pu-239 to represent at least a few weapon's cores per year. they also consume much of it as well, and also contaminated it with other forms of plutonium that make it useless for a bomb, sooo.
<Pap>
Also, there is the Shadow series about Bean in the Enderverse that is really enjoyable as well
<stratochief>
Bean! that is his name. yeah, I enjoyed the Bean stuff in particular, but I liked all the books I read from OSC
<Pap>
Agathorn: I am on a bi-yearly Clancy re-read usually
<Pap>
After I finish Voyage, it might be next on my list
<rsparkyc>
stratochief: don't they start with U-235? how would they get to Pu-239?
<Agathorn>
I'm going through the Thrawn books right now
<rsparkyc>
unless there are Pu powered reactors, my did just worked with Uranium
<Agathorn>
Then I think its time for a return to the Belgariad and Mallorean
<Pap>
I think in Sum of All Fears they had too much Thorium (doesn't sound right), but it caused the bomb to fizzle
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: so, in a US style reactor, they start with ~5% enriched fuel. that means ~5% U-235, in 95% of U-238 filler. U-238 catches a neutron, briefly is Neptunium, then becomes Pu-239
<rsparkyc>
ahh, i see
<stratochief>
as the fuel goes through a cycle in the pressure cooker, the U-235 portion quickly drops as it is consumed, and Pu that has been formed is also fissioned, keeping the party going for longer
<stratochief>
in the end, there is still a good amount of U-235 and Pu in the spent fuel, but it is contaminated with fission products and actinides (high elements, like plutonium) that absorb lots of neutrons to no benefit, so it just makes more sense to put in new fuel
<rsparkyc>
most of the incidents were at unit 2, he worked at unit 3
<stratochief>
cool. ~40 years of operation of a 2 GW system. sooo much less CO2 in the atmosphere. thank him for his service for me :)
<rsparkyc>
it's his birthday tomorrow, so i'll let him know
<stratochief>
:)
<Agathorn>
stratochief: have you read Sum of all Fears?
<Pap>
Agathorn: what are the Thrawn books?
<Agathorn>
Pap: Star Wars
<stratochief>
Agathorn: nope. I've never read any Clancy. giant thick fiction books put me off, unless they are sci-fi
<Agathorn>
haha fair enough
<Agathorn>
since you have a good knowledge of how the bombs work I was gogin to ask you how accurate his portrayal was
<Pap>
I have never read any of the Star Wars books. There are so many and I have never known where to start, what to stay away from, what is good, etc
<stratochief>
I'm open to a wider range of genres nowadays, and audiobooks exist for most popular books, so I'll add it to the list
<Agathorn>
I might be able to find the chapter where the bomb goes off and he explains it
<Agathorn>
online I mean
<stratochief>
Agathorn: If you do, I'll read it
<stratochief>
Agathorn: anyway, since you haven't played Project Space Station, what I wanted you to consider was having missions that are dependant on having a space station with certain components and crew constructed, ie. crew rotation, adding hardware/components, research missions
<stratochief>
I know that is a long way off, but letting the idea ferment in the back of your mind is generally good, I find, for thinking how to build an architecture capable of handing similar, but new types of things down the road
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<stratochief>
o/ Guten Abend Herr Theysen
<Agathorn>
stratochief: I don't see any reason that wouldn't fit in with the mission system
<Pap>
stratochief: have you read Voyage?
<stratochief>
Pap: yep! it is a shame how they torpedo NERVA, but to be fair, there is always a chance that a new technology will fail biggly and cause us to stop persuing it
<Pap>
Was that a realistic way that it could have failed / would have killed the crew?
<stratochief>
sure, just an exceedingly low chance of that happening. which is kind of the problem with any scare surrounding nuclear things
<Pap>
I gotcha
<stratochief>
airplanes could also absolutely fail over suburbs, and flood a neighbourhood with jet fuel, killing hundreds and destroying hundreds of homes by triggering follow-on natural gas fires...
<Pap>
Well, I'm never flying again now, thanks ;)
<stratochief>
IMO, the lack of small scale NERVA flight tests beforehand would have ruled our gambling on a crewed NERVA at that scale and time as done in the book
<Agathorn>
Its still the safest way to travel, statistically speaking
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<CobaltWolf>
o/
<Agathorn>
morning CobaltWolf
<stratochief>
Airplanes are vastly less safe than nuclear power plants, yet fear of potential accidents stops them from being built, and shuts them down prematurely :(
<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: the RCS a t the bottom looks like a tiny mouth
<stratochief>
and the small side windows look like blush spots on the pod's cheeks
<Pap>
stratochief: that was a big problem I am having with the book as well. There was also no rush to get to Mars because it wasn't even a real mission yet, doubtfult that it would have gone up manned
<stratochief>
a small NERVA would be super cool, enabling small high energy probes throughout the solar system, for example. great way to develop and test NERVA before taking it up to J-2 scale
<stratochief>
Pap true. but complacency at having few past failures on that scale can make an agency try to squeeze as much data & prestige out of a mission like that
<Pap>
That makes sense. Didn't the Soviets use a nuclear propulsion, or was it just a nuclear reactor for power?
<stratochief>
lots of ways to make a giant NERVA like that safer, like have neutron poisons you can inject into the reactor to stop it from failing as hardcore as in that book
<stratochief>
Pap: iirc, soviets just used nuclear power (ie. TOPAZ) for power. nuclear propulsion (nuclear thermal-ammonia) or nuclear powered ion engines were considered, never funded by the soviets IIRC
<stratochief>
lol. gotta love that IIRC sandwich. disclaimer disclaimer
<Pap>
So no nuclear engine has ever flown? Interesting
<stratochief>
nope. they tested very powerful NERVAs at Jackass Flats, nothing ever left the ground because it would've needed a few more years and more funding to get flight ready
<Agathorn>
Just need the Epstein drive
Pap is now known as Pap|Lunch
<stratochief>
they prioritized testing it at big scale on the ground, rather than making flight ready small test articles. but hindsight is 20/20
* xShadowx
wonders how the name Jackass Flats came to be
<stratochief>
Agathorn: lol. Yeah, I'm digging that show.
<stratochief>
such pretty art, and I got to see a CG rendered Mars society
<Agathorn>
did you know The Expanse originally started out as an MMO?
<Agathorn>
or a proposed MMO rather
<stratochief>
nope
<Agathorn>
it was all the lore they were writing for the game
<Agathorn>
but the game got canceled
<stratochief>
lol. I'd rather play the Expanse, and watch and EVE tv show, rather than the other way around
<Agathorn>
:)
<xShadowx>
know whats sad? we'll prolly have full VR mars colony games for vive etc before we send a man further than earth orbit again >.>
<Agathorn>
I do wonder if with the popularity of the show, and the resurgence of Space games, if someone is thinking maybe they should go back and do that MMO after all :D
* stratochief
sends cyberpunk cynacism in xShadowx
<stratochief>
*senses
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief: The windows are roughly the proportion of the real Orion's side windows
<stratochief>
I hope we start settling space, before we just start transfering minds to robot bodies
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief: and yeah they're a little small
<xShadowx>
well we already have chips being planted into brains
<Agathorn>
its actually what Musk wants
<Agathorn>
rather than AI
<xShadowx>
cant be too long til we can transfer ;p
<Agathorn>
he wants to make a better human computer link via implants
<stratochief>
I also would like to become a cyborg, like Steve Mann
<Agathorn>
just make sure its a MOVE not a COPY operation
<xShadowx>
why move?
<stratochief>
xShadowx: go Fork yourself
<xShadowx>
>:)
<Agathorn>
because if you just copy me into a robot, then *I* will still die while the me in the robot lives on
<stratochief>
xShadowv2.0 logs in
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: so? ;p
<stratochief>
Agathorn: or, we 'move' you, killing the real you instantly, creating a digital reproduction?
<Agathorn>
complicated isn't it
<Agathorn>
sadly its something i've thought way too much about
<Agathorn>
its like in star trek. Everytime they used the transporter did they die?
<Agathorn>
I think they just died and a copy of them continued on
<stratochief>
naw, I'm fairly confident that 'I' die when my brain stops firing. I'm not particularly interested in copies of me, which is also why I'm not having kids :P
<stratochief>
yeah, Star Trek definitely kills people all the time. they are screwed up.
<Agathorn>
stratochief: yeah but if you copy your neural implant into a machine then you, the you right now will die when your brain dies
<Agathorn>
that thing in the machine is just a copy
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: nope it moved em, evidence by TNG using a 2nd beam then cancelling it, sending a copy of Riker back down
<Agathorn>
I want a way to actually transfer ME to something that lives forever
<Agathorn>
xShadowx: no that just means they made two copies
<Agathorn>
the original is destroyed
<xShadowx>
id rasther clone me :D
<Agathorn>
theres ia a fascinating exploration of the concept in the book Timeline by Chrichton
<xShadowx>
rather
<Agathorn>
I miselledhis name
<Agathorn>
the guy who wrote Jurassic Park
<Agathorn>
the movie sucks thogh - nothing like the book
<xShadowx>
speaking of which, cloning dinos comes when?
<Agathorn>
but in the book there tackle the concept
<stratochief>
I think that if you gradually replace elements of your brain, bringing a computer version of that system online to replace it, you'll only 'die' a small bit at a time, and get over it. IMO, consiousness/existence is about continuity. although, sleep throws a wrench in that conception
<Agathorn>
"you'll only 'die' a small bit at a time, and get over it." - Stratochief 2017
<xShadowx>
:D
<stratochief>
*Stratochief v2017
<Agathorn>
:)
<stratochief>
but like, if a person has a stroke, loses part of their brain, then re-wires their brain to do that task again, they don't feel like they died entirely. your continuous consciousness carries on
<Agathorn>
consciousness is the problem
<Agathorn>
the so called soul
<Agathorn>
it all boils down to that.. are we nothing but a biomchanical pattern of neurons or is there somethign else there we don't understand yet
<stratochief>
perhaps in 20-100 years (aka the Musk era) we will believe the soul/consiousness exists in only a specific sub-element of the brain
<xShadowx>
the soul is a myth and isnt needed
<Agathorn>
prove it
<Agathorn>
I mean its not like you get a do-over if you make a bad call on this one :D
<Theysen>
hello stratochief, inform me when we are near release for RO so I can add it to the thread
<stratochief>
Theysen: roger
* stratochief
pokes xShadowx's toe back over the line, away from insulting the entire conception of religion
<stratochief>
Agathorn on a chip will inside a digital universe, cyborg-Stratochief will colonize Mars
<xShadowx>
theres yer answer in PM so it doesnt offend mr strato :D
<rsparkyc>
on a meeting, but can type sporadically
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: kk, no rush to respond. I'm curious of there are any mod that aren't released now that would hold up an RO release. according to the sheet, Procedural Fairings has a 1.2 version on CKAN, but that version has issues?
<stratochief>
we could potential release RO tonight, or depending on if I'm not around, possibly early tomorrow. delaying to tomorrow gives NathanKell and others a chance to weigh in
<Theysen>
do it now and take all the flame :^)
<stratochief>
Theysen: you just say that because it is already evening for you :P
<Theysen>
1900 local
<Theysen>
ezy
<Agathorn>
did ayoen confirm FAR shows up on CKAN?
<Agathorn>
I thought I heard ferram4 say something about forgetting to update the version
SigmaBRB is now known as SigmaTrain
<Theysen>
waiting on a PR to be merged iirc
<Theysen>
8 hours ago I read that
<ferram4>
I made a PR, it was merged, it should work.
<Agathorn>
ferram4: ah ok cool
<ferram4>
I don't know though, I don't use CKAN
<Agathorn>
I made the smae mistake heh
<Agathorn>
seems a lot of peopel are forgetting to update the ksp ersion..stupid metadata
<stratochief>
I see it in CKAN, yep. mod version 3.0.15.8 , compatible with KSP 1.2.2 (thanks ferram4)
<xShadowx>
\o/
* stratochief
points er'body in the direction of the Donate button on the FAR release page: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/19321-122-ferram-aerospace-research-v0158-de-laval-52217-better-late-than-never-edition/
<Agathorn>
rofl he actually called it the better late than never edition?
<Agathorn>
:D :D
<xShadowx>
:D
<xShadowx>
id say id have died if FAR didnt go 1.2 but i had compiled myself to save myself ;3
Pap|Lunch is now known as Pap
<Sarbian>
xShadowx: Sarbian has a job he can't leave on short notice and other stuff ;)
<Pap>
SO I just finished reading the backchat...If they could take your brain and your conciousness, or soul, whatever you want to call it and put it into a computer, wouldn't it still be "you"
<Sarbian>
ok, I remember why I spent so much time on the console now. My freaking mouse keep double clicking when I click once... The new one will be here tomorrow
<rsparkyc>
lol
<rsparkyc>
PFKMJoints.cs got deleted?
<Sarbian>
it got added
<Sarbian>
grr, the diff is inverted
<rsparkyc>
ahh, ok
<Sarbian>
ah no, it s in the right order
<Sarbian>
the html export is less clear when a whole file is added
<rsparkyc>
yeah, makes sense
<rsparkyc>
i'll just apply the diff you sent
<rsparkyc>
and see what happens :)
<Sarbian>
not sure it will work against the original code, but it should not be hard to apply by hand
<rsparkyc>
ahh, you're probably right
<rsparkyc>
i'll ping you if i have any isuses
<Agathorn>
Sarbian: Logitech mouse?
<rsparkyc>
yeah i bet the decompiled line numbers aren't going to match up with the actual source
<Sarbian>
Agathorn: yep, freaking springs
<Agathorn>
Sarbian: actually most likely nothe the springs..logitech has a long standing issue with their mice and double clicks. It has to do with static electricity building up on the capacitors or some such crap
<Sarbian>
even worse
<Agathorn>
I absolutely love their MX mice but every.single.one I have fails the same way
<Agathorn>
and they know it!
<Agathorn>
they even tell you how to TEMPORARILY fix it
<Sarbian>
I ordered one that uses a new system...
<Agathorn>
but it will always coime back
<Agathorn>
well good luck :)
<Sarbian>
Choosing a mouse online is a nightmare...
<Sarbian>
Gaming mouse main feature currently : WE HAVE 32BIT RGB LEDS !!
<stratochief|away>
I just grabbed 5 shitty mice, and the 2 that survived are the onces I use to this day. 5+ years of operation and kicking
<Sarbian>
Do you remember the XKCD panel about black light and toilets ?
<Sarbian>
I bought a black light. I used it on my keyboard and mice. I now throw them away after some time.
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regex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Pap is now known as Pap|Doctor
Theysen has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<soundnfury>
Pap: definitely put up Pluto
<soundnfury>
it's a planet, and I will ſtab anyone who claims otherwise.
<rsparkyc>
just call it a retro model
<rsparkyc>
someone should totally make a kerbal model of that
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<JeeF>
Good afternoon, folks
hattivat has joined #RO
<JeeF>
Quick question: I just made these foldable ramps to load cargo up my AN-124. http://imgur.com/a/iWBi8 In the hangar it works beautifully, but when I launch it, the hinges unfold but the ramps stay completely static.
<JeeF>
Any idea whats up with that?
<hattivat>
hello guys and gals, long time no see
<JeeF>
hey
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<soundnfury>
because the IAU does not own the word 'planet'; it is common parlance rather than jargon
<Pap>
But isn't Dwarf Planet a good enough status?
* soundnfury
reaches for the ſtabber
<soundnfury>
it's not about status, it's about demarcation
<soundnfury>
("We demand," yelled Vroomfondel, "that demarcation may or may not be the problem!")
<Agathorn>
Pluto is a planet because the rule they used to disqualify it is crap and would disqualify every planet in the solar system
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: that too
<Agathorn>
They claim Pluto isn't a planey because it hasn't cleared its orbit of smaller bodies
egg is now known as egg|df|egg
<soundnfury>
mmm, ill-defined definitions...
rsparkyc has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
<Pap>
But why Pluto and not Ceres or Vesta?
<stratochief>
o/ hattivat
<stratochief>
hattivat: what've you been doing in the interrum?
<soundnfury>
Pap: because they're not nearly as interesting :P
<stratochief>
soundnfury: personally I think dwarves are far more interesting. #dwarvenmasterrace
<UmbralRaptor>
Reminder: the geologic definition means that there are 6 planets orbiting Saturn.
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: those aren't planets, they're Type II cakes.
* UmbralRaptor
throws a lemon meringue Type II cake at soundnfury
<soundnfury>
good job I'm not Dr McKay
<hattivat>
o/ stratochief
<hattivat>
stratochief: other than working as an IT security bureaucrat, mostly playing eu4; then I quit that job and decided to get myself to the level of coding where I could work as a programmer
<hattivat>
then wasted too much time listening to weird music and tricking out my linux to perfection
<hattivat>
and now I have a temporary but well-paying gig translating Indonesian tweets for a British subsidiary of a Japanese pharma corporation
<hattivat>
(globalization in a nutshell ;p)
<hattivat>
that's about it, I guess
<hattivat>
and today I chanced upon Nathankell's "I'm baaaack" video on yt, felt an intense pang of nostalgia for RO, and decided to check how you guys are doing
<hattivat>
and see if I could perhaps help with some configs
Thomas is now known as Thomas|AWAY
<Agathorn>
well then. Welcome back :)
<hattivat>
thanks, it's good to be back :)
<hattivat>
I already had a conversation with egg, which forced my to google something about every second sentence, just like in good old times ;d
<stratochief>
hattivat: cool! globalism is a strange creature that makes us do strange things.
<hattivat>
indeed
<stratochief>
off the top of my head, the most helpful thing you may be able to do is try out Pap's contracts or new tech tree. I'll go look for those PRs
<hattivat>
forgot to add: I'm Polish, and sitting in Poland, as I do the job described above
<stratochief>
beyond that, and beyond the next week, you should talk about whatever space-y thing you like the most, and someone will probably be able to suggest areas of that area that are underserved
<Agathorn>
sure ruins all those polish jokes that were around when I was a kid
<hattivat>
not really, we have plenty of self-disparaging jokes
<stratochief>
my lab prof had a 1982 calculator that used 'reverse polish notation', whatever that means. and I believe one of my great grandfathers fled poland in WWI
<soundnfury>
disparagus staging
<Agathorn>
stratochief: its actually rather popular with some circles
<soundnfury>
stratochief: yay RPN
<Agathorn>
RPN confuses my brain though
<stratochief>
1 enter. 1 enter. plus enter. returns, 2
<hattivat>
stratochief: reverse polish notation is like lisp in reverse
<soundnfury>
although I prefer forward polish notation / lisp
<Agathorn>
lisp in forward is bad enough :p
<soundnfury>
(when people look at KPU programs their heads tend to asplode)
<stratochief>
not sure where the tech tree is. probably on Pap's repo
<hattivat>
stratochief: fleeing Poland was rather popular thing to do throughout the XIX and XX century
<Agathorn>
it is yes
<hattivat>
we are a country in a crumple zone, as they say
<stratochief>
it is strange to be able to edit people's PR and Issues text. but I used it to fix Paps' spelling mistake on Contracts
<hattivat>
a crumple zone between Germany and Russia, specifically
<Agathorn>
literally at once time :(
<Agathorn>
trying to play Poland in hoi4 is interesting
<hattivat>
stratochief: alright, I'll get myself a working rp-0 install tomorrow and try it out
<soundnfury>
"Pies are tasty" -- NathanKell, 2017.
<hattivat>
Agathorn: I used to be one of the few people who could win as Poland in Darkest Hour (a standalone realism mod to HoI2), good times
<Agathorn>
yeah i remember hdarkest hour
<hattivat>
Agathorn: although it relied completely on exploiting the fact that the Soviet invasion event did not fire if Poland was not losing badly IIRC
<hattivat>
it was to avoid having SU and GB at war with each other, I think
<hattivat>
anyway, it made it possible to solo Germany
<Agathorn>
I played a bunch of games as France in hoi4 and the only way I found not to get the mainland wiped out was to stand up to the germans when they first stepped over the line
<Agathorn>
playing it "historically" I would always get wiped out by either Germany or Italy
<hattivat>
which was just about barely doable if you followed exactly the right strategy starting in 1933 and had a bit of luck
<hattivat>
Agathorn: that sound pretty historical, Pilsudski offered to France a joint invasion of Germany in 1933 IIRC
<hattivat>
just after Hitler came to power, in any case
<hattivat>
that was also doable in darkest hour, actually, as 1933 German army is pitiful
<hattivat>
but that's basically cheating
<Agathorn>
yeah in HOI4 there is an event.. I think it was the reoccupation of the rhineland. As france you can basically choose to tell them to shove it, that it is a violation of the treaty and if you do there is a random chance that they back down, or that war breask out.. but it war breaks out the germany army is so weak you can roflstomp them
<hattivat>
in darkest hour I thing the earliest you can legally declare mobilization without turning your county autocratic (which, let's face it, is not difficult to do as Poland) was after Anschluss
<hattivat>
s/thing/think
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: in darkest hour I think the earliest you can legally declare mobilization without turning your county autocratic (which, let's face it, is not difficult to do as Poland) was after Anschluss
<Agathorn>
Right now I keep trying to get an achievement that as Canada you take washington DC
<stratochief>
!tell NathanKel* so, opinions on an RO release now? feel free to release tonight. If not, I'm thinking of one tomorrow
<Qboid>
stratochief: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Agathorn>
I've failed several times
<hattivat>
I once accidentally resurrected the Roman Empire in darkest hour
<soundnfury>
stratochief: woo, release hype ;)
<Agathorn>
did we get PF straightened out?
<hattivat>
meaning I sneakily captured all of Spain and then all of France while it was busy fighting the Germans
<stratochief>
soundnfury: I assumed any possible release hype would've smouldered out over the past year, with the 'Waiting for Godot' situation :P
<hattivat>
then invaded Britain
<hattivat>
then created a fleet of CVs and invaded the US
<Agathorn>
stratochief: did Sarbian et al get procedural fairings straightened out with a proper source backed relese?
<stratochief>
Agathorn: I mean, it has an official release already. it isn't perfect, but it works. if rsparkyc ends up fixing it up further and creating a better release at some point, all the better
<Agathorn>
ah ok
<hattivat>
and then called it quits after capturing the east coast, as there was no point in winning any more
<Agathorn>
I was just going by what was on the spreadsheet. I never looked myself
<hattivat>
since I see that we are back on topic: has someone looked at trying to mold kerbalism to fit RO?
<hattivat>
I've tried it in stock scale, and the way it handles crew needs and radiation is great
<stratochief>
hattivat: nope. anybody is free to try. I'd be more than interested in fiel reports
<stratochief>
hattivat: if you do, please create an Issue for tracking it on the RO Github. persistent information is a good thing :)
<hattivat>
I might do that
<Agathorn>
It has been talked about a bit
<hattivat>
stratochief: sure, will do
<Agathorn>
I do'nt think we want all of Kerbalism - failures for example are done by TestFlight - but severa of its modules look great
<hattivat>
we certainly don't
<hattivat>
that's why I said "mold"
<stratochief>
RO has enough failures. I mean, look at this room of winners :)
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<Agathorn>
I just thought you had a hygeine problem
<hattivat>
I assume it has settings to turn off the stuff we don't need
<soundnfury>
iirc when kerbalism was new the developer was saying that it would be monolithic and he didn't want people to use bits of it. Is that no longer true?
<JeeF>
Hey guys, about 3 hours ago I asked a question and left a link to an image, I had to leave my house kinda out of the blue, wasn't able to see if someone replied to it.
<acc>
&hey all
<hattivat>
soundnfury: no idea, but there certainly are settings to de facto turn off parts of it
<stratochief>
JeeF: no clue, sorry
<hattivat>
even in GUI
<hattivat>
so I presume text configs might be even more flexible
<JeeF>
No clue about my question or no clue about my message?
<stratochief>
JeeF: I do not know the solution to the problem/strange behaviour you were asking about
<stratochief>
acc: TIL about 'the Know'
<JeeF>
Ah ok, ty anyways =)
<JeeF>
Chief, do you have that image link still by any chance? I'm not at home atm, I don't have access to it. I'll try asking on IR thread
<hattivat>
you're welcome, I've just learned about it today myself
<acc>
stratochief: TIL?
<stratochief>
acc: Today I Learned
<Agathorn>
yet another annoying intnernet acronym
<Agathorn>
because we can't type words anymore
<acc>
ah, k. pretty popular on youtube
<stratochief>
<JeeF> Quick question: I just made these foldable ramps to load cargo up my AN-124. http://imgur.com/a/iWBi8 In the hangar it works beautifully, but when I launch it, the hinges unfold but the ramps stay completely static.
<hattivat>
Agathorn: you should see how Indonesians and Malaysians write on the internet
<hattivat>
English acronyms are just a child's play
<acc>
they can mean everything!
<Agathorn>
it just annoys me how lazy people are getting today
<hattivat>
(which a trendy Indonesian teenager would spell like: En acns a j ch pl
<hattivat>
)
<stratochief>
Agathorn: youngsters on your lawn again?
<hattivat>
seriously :)
<Agathorn>
stratochief: they won't stay away
<stratochief>
Agathorn: you just have such a verdent meadow. The Youths must frollick!
<acc>
heh
<soundnfury>
hattivat: ever heard of Q codes?
<Agathorn>
that sounds sexual and I don't know why
<JeeF>
I love IR so much, but every time I have an idea about something new I want to try out involving IR, I load up ksp and in about 2 hours I'm depressed and frustrated. Shit works wonderfully in the hangar/VAB, but once launched it's all buggy and backwards
<soundnfury>
the internet ain't got *nothin* on us radio hams
<JeeF>
If the devs incorporated IR into stock KSP as an expansion for 25-30 bucks, I'd gladly pay for it
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: brevity has its place, i'm not arguing that
<hattivat>
soundnfury: not until now
<stratochief>
JeeF: I had the same feeling about KIS/KAS. then I finally managed to use the winch and tether to make artificial gravity and was finally happy
<acc>
JeeF: usually when such things happen the hinges or whatever are attached the wrong way
<Agathorn>
but the brevity used on the internet is not used for a logical reason other than lazyness/trendyness
<hattivat>
soundnfury: ok, that's even better compression
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: yeah, at least when you're sending Morse with a straight key, the brevity is justified
<stratochief>
Agathorn: but... specialist fields have been using shorthand, acronyms since.. forever. LEM, TLI, GEO/GTO
* soundnfury
gives stratochief a DASD
<stratochief>
it is just another version of in-group out-group slang, creativity with language, mann
<stratochief>
hell, prior to a hundred-ish years ago, spelling wasn't static or consistent. language if fluid as fuck. get over it, old man :P
<hattivat>
a hundred year ago the equivalent of SMS/internet abbreviations was stenography
<hattivat>
s/year/years
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: a hundred years ago the equivalent of SMS/internet abbreviations was stenography
<stratochief>
uppity little fuckers in prep school learned latin, a language entirely incomprehensible to their poorer peers
<JeeF>
Acc: But how will you know if it's attached the wrong way? You need to use VAB/Hangar as basis, if it works there then you assume it will work once launched. The thing is, after launching, the ramps are correctly attached to the hinges exactly where I placed them, and the hinges do fold exactly like I programmed them to, but the ramps attached to the hinges stay static without a care in the world. They are physically attached to the hinge, but they ignore the hinge
<Sigma88>
latin is still taught in most highschools here
<stratochief>
Sigma88: where?
<Sigma88>
italy
<soundnfury>
used to be taught at my school, they ditched it the year I arrived :'(
<stratochief>
ahh. well,that makes a little more sense there. The schools in my area were literally 1 generation past one room school houses on the praire. my dad went to one.
<Sigma88>
I choose mine because it didn't have latin :D
<stratochief>
Sigma88: are you in southern (mafia) italy, or more northerly?
<Sigma88>
lol
<stratochief>
one of the few modern things I know about italy
<Sigma88>
I'm from the good part
<Sigma88>
north of the Po
<Sigma88>
:P
<Sigma88>
I'm joking, but yes, I'm from Padova which is northeast, near venice
<Pap>
hello hattivat
<Agathorn>
I remember when I went TDY to Brindisi, Italy we got briefed about the cigarette runs :)
<Agathorn>
don
<Agathorn>
t don't kno if that is still a thing
<Sigma88>
cigarette runs?
<stratochief>
cigarette runs?
<stratochief>
lol
<Pap>
stratochief: I talked to NathanKell|AWAY at length last night about the Tech Tree, he has some ideas for the first 2 tiers that we are going to look at when he gets the time to collate his thoughts
<stratochief>
Pap: yep, I saw that in the backchat. he came on within 10 minutes of me leaving, yet again :)
<Pap>
As far as Space Shuttles go...Does the SSTU shuttle work?
<hattivat>
hello Pap
<stratochief>
Pap: only one way to find out :)
<Pap>
Is Cormorant Aeronology the best Shuttle mod that I should look at moving to RO configs? Or is there a better one?
<Pap>
I'll try it later tonight stratochief, it will also give me a good excuse to try the SSTU SRB's we discussed
<Pap>
hattivat: I am from Chicago (the second larges Polish population in the world behind Warsaw) and last name is Paplaczyk, so you are in good company
<Pap>
/s/larges/largest
<Pap>
nevermind
<stratochief>
Pap: wow, 2 vowels in your last name, and you're Polish? must be nice, must be nice
<Pap>
lol
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<soundnfury>
o/ scott
<stratochief>
I suppose my Polish side has 2 as well; twarzynski
<taniwha>
stratochief: 2.5:)
<taniwha>
(y is a vowel there)
<hattivat>
stratochief: considering inconsistent spelling, I just dug out the query we needed to catch all tweets about typhus in Indonesian, see it in it's full glory: tipus OR tifus OR tipes OR typus OR tipis OR thypus OR typhus OR tyfus OR typhoa OR types OR tifes OR tiphus
<Pap>
^ has a ZY in it, can confirm it is Polish
<taniwha>
(unless it's modifying z?)
<stratochief>
hattivat: looks about as good as my mom's spelling
<hattivat>
Pap: that's nice, may I ask how you pronounce that?
<hattivat>
I'm asking because I once came across an yt video from an American with the same surname as me (Janiczek) and it was amusing to hear him pronounce it :)
<Pap>
We have "Americanized" it to be Puh-Play-Zick, however my uncle uses Puh-Pla-Check
<hattivat>
not in a bad way, just interesting
<hattivat>
yeah, your uncle has the correct version
<Pap>
My mom's maiden name is Dziedzic
<Pap>
Somehow that is Gedge-eetz
<hattivat>
oh dear, that's a hardcore one ;d
<Agathorn>
Sigma88: yeah thats what they called them. I just remember the briefs they said if your on the road at night and a huge line of cars comes through with their headlights off, then just pull off the road and don't fuck with them :)
<Pap>
But, Americanized to Dee-zeck as well
<hattivat>
dz is one sound
<hattivat>
polish has a lot of digraphs because our spelling was devised by some idiot
stratochief is now known as stratochief|away
<Pap>
lol, probably a Polock
<hattivat>
(Czech is so much better, our cz = Czech č for example)
<taniwha>
yeah, I realized that zy might be something like the official Japanese romanization
<hattivat>
stratochief|away: taniwha actually 3, y is a full vowel for us
<hattivat>
it denotes something close to your short i
<hattivat>
like in tip
<taniwha>
that's what I thought at first
<hattivat>
whereas i for is always pronounced ee
<hattivat>
like deed for example
<taniwha>
yeah
<Sigma88>
Agathorn: lol what? so like blackmarket cigarette runs? it's not something I am familiar with, but it wouldn't surprise me, expecially if it was more than 10 years ago
<hattivat>
s/for is/for us
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: whereas i for us always pronounced ee
<Agathorn>
mid 90s
<hattivat>
s/for us/for us is
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: stratochief|away: taniwha actually 3, y is a full vowel for us is
<Agathorn>
like 1997ish maybe.. I can't recall
<taniwha>
hattivat: I learned Japanese and use IPA when teaching English (which I haven't done for a while, though)
<hattivat>
time to sleep
<JeeF>
5 letters, 1 consonant, the consonant sounds like the whole word, first guess wins a prize
<taniwha>
so I've got some familiarity with different writing systems
<hattivat>
taniwha: so now you know what others go through when they learn English? :)
<taniwha>
hattivat: yup.
<hattivat>
English spelling is a nightmare, although admittedly a pretty one
<taniwha>
particularly the pronunciation
<hattivat>
Polish is other way aroundd
<Sigma88>
Agathorn: I've never heard of anything like that, but there's a big tax on cigarettes so it's not uncommon for people to go abroad and buy tons for cheap and then introduce them illegally in italy and sell them to make profit
<taniwha>
English spelling isn't all /that/ bad (not great)
<soundnfury>
Jeef: form an orderly blank
<Agathorn>
Well they could have been lying to us of course..but I think the subtext was that it was Mafia crap
<taniwha>
but pronunciation is a nightmare for Japanese
<hattivat>
Polish looks awful in writing, but the spelling system is very consistent
<JeeF>
My grandma's last name is Komavzcwesky
<Agathorn>
I just stayed off the roads.. Italian drivers scare me
<hattivat>
so once you know all of the letters and digraphs, you don't have to ask how to pronounce a word even if you see it for the first time
<taniwha>
hattivat: English's "inconsistencies" are due to there being 5+ spelling systems in effect
<taniwha>
it's not really inconsistent, it just looks that way
<hattivat>
taniwha: from 5+ different source languages, I know
<Sigma88>
if it was mafia then probably there were no cigarettes involved :D
<taniwha>
(you have to know the roots of the word to guess the spelling system to use)
<JeeF>
Time for some Subnautica, catch you guys later =)
<hattivat>
taniwha: yes, but that's a burden one has to learn additionally
<UmbralRaptor>
I before E, except after C, or when sounding like A, as in neighbor or weigh. Which ignores Sheila, weird, deity,…
<hattivat>
whereas in slavic languages, most romance languages, and even in Malay/Indonesian you just learn all the sounds
<hattivat>
each sounds has at most two possible spellings
<hattivat>
and you're ready to read anything, even if you don't understand a word of it
<xShadowx>
UmbralRaptor: no? shay luh
<Agathorn>
UmbralRaptor: I always remembered it as I before E except after C and in every word in the book
<UmbralRaptor>
Also fun: guess the pronounciation of "geoduck," "taniwha," or "Erdogan"
<hattivat>
my all-time favourite is the English pronounciation of fuchsia
<Agathorn>
but seriousnly, I seem to recall there before a third or even fourth verse to that beyond neighbour and weigh
<hattivat>
never fails to cheer me up :)
<UmbralRaptor>
gooey-duck, tanifa, and erdowan, if they were phonetic.
<Agathorn>
fuchsia isn't so bad
<Agathorn>
at least its pronunciation and spelling are close
<UmbralRaptor>
And we all know about ghoti.
<hattivat>
well, pretty much all languages pronounce it fooks-yah or sth along these line
<hattivat>
it's only in English that you can get "fyoos-ya"
<Agathorn>
well they ae all wrong
<hattivat>
;D
<hattivat>
not really, the word come from German Fuchs
<hattivat>
which means fox and is pronounced similarly
<hattivat>
(it was the surname of the guy who discovered the plant, IIRC)
<taniwha>
hattivat: actually, in general, so long as the spelling is close enough, it's good enough
<Sigma88>
oh god
Pap is now known as Pap|AFK
<Sigma88>
I just google translated fuchsia to hear the pronounciation
<Sigma88>
few-sha?
<hattivat>
fun, isn't it? :D
<taniwha>
especially if it's otherwise the right word and the grammar is good enough
<Sigma88>
is that right?
<Agathorn>
few-sha yes
<taniwha>
Sigma88: seems about rought
<soundnfury>
Sigma88: I'd say few-zha
<UmbralRaptor>
seems right
<Agathorn>
yeah but you don't speak english right :D
* Agathorn
ducks
<Sigma88>
lol
<Agathorn>
Brits speak old english
* soundnfury
gives Agathorn an uncleftish beholding
<UmbralRaptor>
hwæt
<taniwha>
Brits speak? I thought they mumbled.
<xShadowx>
aw peggy carter canceled
<Agathorn>
xShadowx: yeah :( that was a while ago though!
<Agathorn>
Classy shows don't get ratings
<Agathorn>
I'm just mad they cancelled it before showing SSR -> SHIELD
<Agathorn>
would have been nice to at least see that happen
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: i found out b/c shes in a new series XD i was gonna wait a couple more seasons before watching peggy carter lol
<Agathorn>
her new series got cancelled too
<xShadowx>
conviction?
<Agathorn>
yeah
<xShadowx>
lol
<xShadowx>
people like seein bad guys get fucked, not people let out of prison :P
<xShadowx>
thats accually kinda sad it got canceled, b/c the girl from walking dead was in it and shes cute ;3
<soundnfury>
taniwha: still better than the Dutch :P