<leudaimon>
I've used it a lot before... but was rusty
<Starwaster>
omg why is a pdf file over 600 mb?
<blowfish>
series of images rather than text?
<Rokker>
stratochief: T-24h
<Starwaster>
that's probably it. It's scanned pages of source code
<Starwaster>
uhm I have no idea why I'm downloading it since the entire text is now available on github. In fact I forked it
* UmbralRaptor
recalls running into a pdf with 50 pages of scanned FORTRAN.
<Starwaster>
Was it for Gemini?
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<UmbralRaptor>
Some atmospheric modeling code from circa 1990.
<UmbralRaptor>
Uh, radiative transfer specifically.
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<stratochief>
Rokker: 24 hours until what?
stratochief is now known as stratosleep
<Starwaster>
nobody's done an in-game AGS plugin yet have they
<Agathorn>
heh are you still on that github project?
<Agathorn>
i'm rather surprised you only just now discovered it
<Starwaster>
me too
<Starwaster>
I actually found it on the whim
<Starwaster>
a whim
<Starwaster>
I thought to myself... you know what, I bet that SOMEWHERE out there someone has the actual Apollo/Saturn source code
<Starwaster>
so I looked for it and found out it's been there for years
<Starwaster>
at least in scanned form. not sure how long actual compilable code has been around. Probably not long after that guy scanned it
<Starwaster>
have to have emulator of some kind to compile the stuff
<Starwaster>
thats there too
<Agathorn>
that project has been around for quite some time for sure
<Agathorn>
There is an Orbiter plugin based on it
<Starwaster>
what I'm not clear on is whether or not it includes the iterative guidance mode used by the upper stages of Saturn
<Starwaster>
I did find a flowchart in some NASA document that had the IGM, full of equations but it's hurting my head trying to decipher the equations
<Starwaster>
ok now I have so many tabs open in CHrome that it is rebelling against me opening up any more PDF documents
<Starwaster>
it's screaming something about NO PDF WITHOUT REPRESENTATION! at me
<Starwaster>
Remember: If the Earth were flat, cats would have pushed everything off of it a long time ago
<NathanKell>
wow that was a weird nick for me to have
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Agathorn left a message for you in #RO [30.05.2017 16:19:01]: "I haven't yet determined if I want to model variable Isp. Doing so makes nearly all the math an order of magnitude more complex and we all know how much trouble I have with even the easy stuff :)"
<xShadowx|2>
o/
<Agathorn>
lol evening NathanKell
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: If you don't model it, then either (a) you allow people to use Merlin 1DVs or RL10s or SPSs as lift engines (going by vac Isp), or you make them useless (going by SL Isp)
<Agathorn>
The Artist Formerly Know as 2RRAABF9L
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: yeah stratosleep and I were discussing the ramifications and work arounds earlier
<NathanKell>
ah, sorry, only scraped scrollback for mentions
<Agathorn>
ironic given i'm using the algorithm behind that web page is what i'm using for evaluating overall vehicle go/no go
<NathanKell>
!tell rsparkyc* the Early Controllable Core is meant to model a film return capsule's avionics. That's why it's so tiny.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: It's a decent algorithm as long as you "play by the rules"
<NathanKell>
but players don't :P
<NathanKell>
Also, that algorithm requires vac Isp to be used.
<NathanKell>
(and vac thrust)
<NathanKell>
and you quoted SL Isp for the X-405
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<Agathorn>
yeah.. strato said the same as you either locking out engines, or he said "Agathorn: ahh, guesstimate is always good. most burn time & dV is produced towards the vacuum ISP side, for most first/core stages. IIRC, my spreadsheed averages SL&Vac ISP, weighted towards Vac at 0.8 or something"
<Rokker>
stratosleep: til japan
<Agathorn>
I think I just need to find a middle ground that lets me SOMEWHAT factor in changing Isp without making the math a pita
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: eh take any value listed currently as suspect.. I just threw a bunch of data in to have somethign to work with..none of it has been audited
<Agathorn>
btw that video I gave you last night was all messed up but no one told me :) It didn't show at all what it was meant to.. here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WODpO4mC3g
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: ^
<NathanKell>
I would say lerp between SL and Vac Isp over the first 1500m/s (maybe 2km/sec?) of delta V
<NathanKell>
compute liftoff TWR using SL Isp and thrust, obvs
<NathanKell>
leudaimon you beated me! Noooo!
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: But if you are using Schilling's version of that algorithm, which in particular computes orbital altitude / BLEO mission capability based on delta V, you _definitely_ need to use vac Isp (and vac delta V) for those calcs or you'll seriously underestimate capability
<NathanKell>
You might actually want to touch base with e of pi, if CobaltWolf can put you in contact
<Agathorn>
yeah makes sense.. I haven't implemented it yet.. I was having trouble with some of the math so put it off, but my plan was to use it based on the separate paper that talks about the algorithm
<Agathorn>
but using Vac numbers amkes sense I mean.. since most of the time is spent in lower pressure
<NathanKell>
it's not because of that'
<Agathorn>
no?
<NathanKell>
it's because it computes the vac delta V to orbit (more or less), so any remaining delta V is used to determine BLEO capability
<NathanKell>
it talks about that in the paper
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<NathanKell>
(IIRC)
<Agathorn>
was a while ago that I read it
<NathanKell>
yeah, it's about...2yrs? for me
<NathanKell>
hazy
<rsparkyc>
NathanKell, for the procedural issues, right clicking doesn't fix it
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: leudaimon left a message for you in #RO [30.05.2017 23:01:53]: "What part do you use as reference to calculate the stats for the proc avionics? I'm using a service module procedural tank and price is 0 for the size"
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [31.05.2017 01:24:37]: "the Early Controllable Core is meant to model a film return capsule's avionics. That's why it's so tiny."
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<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: huh, that's a new one then
<NathanKell>
is it not the old issue?
<rsparkyc>
perhaps it's a different one, it's a real pain though
<rsparkyc>
because if you load and launch, your ship will be messed up
<NathanKell>
can you describe it again then? Cuz I misread your post for sure then
<rsparkyc>
yeah, i'll put together good docu
<rsparkyc>
hit enter too soon
<Pap>
o/ NathanKell
<rsparkyc>
so right now i have a simple install: ProgeduralFairings, ProceduralParts, SolverEngines, ProceduralFairing-ForEverything, and RealFuels
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<rsparkyc>
i'll add a structural piece as the root, then a procedural tank, then add a procedural interstage, as shown in this screenshot
<rsparkyc>
the only way (i can find) to fix it is to disconnect and reconnect the interstage node
<rsparkyc>
is that the same issue you had mentioned?
<Pap>
Agathorn: I know this is early and preliminary, but add to your designer notes possibly...Maybe a hover tooltip as to the advantages / disadvantages to the Common / Split and Insulated / Balloon style tanks?
<rsparkyc>
leudaimon: as for what part i use, i just use the in-game part that corresponds to what i'm trying to model. I'm not sure what you mean when you said you're using a service module procedural tank
<Agathorn>
Yeah I actually want some rather in depth information on such things
<Pap>
Sweet
<Agathorn>
I want it to be somewhat educational
<Pap>
I am a big fan of the overall UI so far, it looks clean and informative to me
<Agathorn>
and ugly
<Agathorn>
but if I can i'll get a pro to redo it later
<Agathorn>
otherwise its an indie game :)
<Pap>
Are you considering doing anything like a kickstarter?
<Agathorn>
yeah
<Agathorn>
once I have a playable demo
<Pap>
Good! That could be one of the strretch goals then
<Agathorn>
My goal presently is to have a raw indie game and then do a kickstarter to gather funds for polish
<Pap>
Nice plan
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: Yes, that's what I get, and right-clicking on the interstage ring usually snaps it back
<NathanKell>
at least in 1.1.3, haven't tried in 1.2 yet
<rsparkyc>
ok, if you get a chance, do you mind trying?
<rsparkyc>
(then you could be really ambitious and fix it, since it seems beyond me)
<NathanKell>
yep, will try
<NathanKell>
and for fixing, Starwaster, can you add a detection for if the thing attached to a node has a proc fairnigs module (I think it's KzProcedural*) you don't offset it on load?
<NathanKell>
since IIRC you were brave enough to take on PP? :)
<rsparkyc>
ahh, i never thought about trying to make the change in PP, i may look at that side of things as well and see if i can't make a PR
<Starwaster>
I'll look into it
<Starwaster>
I must have misunderstood because I thought the parts were actually physically separating
<rsparkyc>
they're acting like they're attached
<Starwaster>
is that not what's happening then? They just offset?
<NathanKell>
yep, just offset
<rsparkyc>
Starwaster: did you get a chance to think about switching some of the ProceduralSRB stuff to OnStartFinished?
<NathanKell>
because both PP and PF try to move each other, each thinking they have to 'fix' the other's position
<rsparkyc>
NathanKell, you're using Principia: you might see this as well, where a procedural SRB's nozzle is way off
<rsparkyc>
moving the nozzle initialization to OnStartFinished seemed to fix it for me, but i'm not sure if there are reasons why that would be bad
<NathanKell>
possibly because of a frame shift during start
<NathanKell>
floating origin I mean
<Starwaster>
What I'm thinking is that's pushing off a problem that's happening because of an exception in Principia. It might fix this one thing this one time but you've still got an exception going off that's going to screw up other things eventually
<Starwaster>
it's basically kicking the can down the road
<NathanKell>
wait, principia is throwing?
<NathanKell>
I thought it was clean, but due to FO origin shift
<NathanKell>
if that's throwing during start and killing stuff, good gracious that's bad
<rsparkyc>
it only happens with principia for me
<rsparkyc>
i think the exception in principia is just the UI component
<rsparkyc>
but, just a guess
<NathanKell>
it sure wouldn't kill part module start if it's in a totally different component
<NathanKell>
IIRC
<rsparkyc>
well, i feel that i have done my part, and informed the powers that be
<Starwaster>
rsparkyc doesnt matter where it's happening, it can still kill execution of other things later down the chain
<rsparkyc>
yeah, makes sense
<rsparkyc>
i saw that with how i was getting volume from a procedural part just today
<NathanKell>
but it's a different chain, Starwaster
<rsparkyc>
update procedural avionics in RP-0 to fix that issue where the shape wouldn't change
<NathanKell>
An exception in one component, let alone one _gameobject_, shouldn't kill another
<NathanKell>
I mean, heck, see the PP's Start method runs
<NathanKell>
or OnStart
<Starwaster>
it wouldn't be the first time
<Starwaster>
for something that shouldn't happen it happens with pretty alarming frequency
<Starwaster>
even things like game events like OnVesselWasModified or OnVesselComeOffRails have had bad side effects if something throws in them
<Starwaster>
GetModuleCost? An error there will trash the parts list for everything after the part it throws in
<Starwaster>
remember the spaghetti sships? Eerrors in the event coming off rails
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: Of course events have issues, we don't try/catch between each eventlist invocation IIRC
<NathanKell>
Same with GetModuleCost
<NathanKell>
That's completely and totally different--Start() is invoked by Unity, not us
<NathanKell>
well, them now, not us :P
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, I mean, to calculate the volume and price, you need some other proc part as reference for the values... For that I used a proc tank type service module
<xShadowx>
.......i want to find where starstrider42 hides
<xShadowx>
hes been playing with all the TF failures and makin configs <3
<rsparkyc>
ahh, i just use a procedural avionics unit, scale it appropriately, and overlay it to the part i'm trying to copy, then right click and it has a volume display
<leudaimon>
NathanKell, I didn't beat you yet... you are on day 46 still... won't manage to get suborbital before day 94?
* xShadowx
might need to commit more failures
<NathanKell>
leudaimon I meant uncrewed Karman
<NathanKell>
soundnfury, rsparkyc, leudaimon, Pap: So, building costs are currently at a full 150% of what the should be. I suggest we lower that to 100%. Has anyone bought an upgrade yet?
<leudaimon>
I bought plenty...
<NathanKell>
A building upgrade
<NathanKell>
not a KCT one
<leudaimon>
launch pad
<NathanKell>
Ah, dang, ok.
<leudaimon>
tracking station
<NathanKell>
Well, we'll be grinding tier 2 R&D (and tier 3 everything) for quite some time :D
<leudaimon>
and the contract one
<NathanKell>
wow, speedy!
<Pap>
I looked to and it was very expensive
<Pap>
damn leudaimon no more cheating
<NathanKell>
yeah, 50% extra cost does that
<xShadowx>
whats it mod.....custom barn kit? that lets you setup building upgrade costs?
<NathanKell>
I checked what the actual penalty was, I thought it was 110 or 120, it's 150
<NathanKell>
which means I can't get the pad before snf's orbital launch
<NathanKell>
I mean, I could, barely, by sinking a ton into BPs
<leudaimon>
lol, I try to be aggressive in contract aquisition
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: out of interest, did you do early engines or avionics? I wanna do the opposite whatever it was
<NathanKell>
(I'm hoping to do avionics first, since that seems the more untravelled path, but you might have done that and don't want to repeat :D )
<Pap>
What year would you say NERVA I and NERVA II would have been useable?
<NathanKell>
1973 or so? But that's because we back-burnered it even before cancelling tbh
<NathanKell>
maybe 1975?
<NathanKell>
hard to say
<Pap>
Are you guys alright with me moving my launch site to the top of Everest?
<xShadowx>
o.O
<NathanKell>
...so, SPS as booster engines? :P
<xShadowx>
how much dv does that save XD
<Pap>
lol
<NathanKell>
not so much dV. lets you use halfway to vac Isp tho
<xShadowx>
i wonder how bad of idea itd be to use a mountain, dig a hole down, and use it as a launch tube, all the exhaust kept contained behind it pushing
<xShadowx>
would save a ton of fuel wouldnt it?
<leudaimon>
oh, will lose NathanKell|Twitch's stream... got to go
<Rokker>
Agathorn: i want ur mod
<Rokker>
and ur voice
<Agathorn>
lol I hate my voice
<Agathorn>
But its not a mod
<rsparkyc>
everyone hates their voice
<Rokker>
^
<Rokker>
Agathorn: wat is it
<Agathorn>
yeah probably true
<Agathorn>
Rokker: Its my own game I am making
<Rokker>
Agathorn: ohhhh
<Rokker>
cool
<Rokker>
i want ur game, Agathorn
* Rokker
chucks a wad of cash at Agathorn
<Agathorn>
Patience :)
<Agathorn>
still a lot left to do
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: replace it with soviet rockets and he'll quit buggin you :P
<Agathorn>
:)
<lamont>
is there a write up anywhere that gives an overview of the whole RP0 tech tree?
<rsparkyc>
well pip is re-doing it though, right?
<lamont>
yeah kind of why i’m hoping someone wrote up the cliff notes version of NK’s 160 hour long playthrough last year, because i don’t want to do that if it is all about to change
<xShadowx>
soundnfury: your 'firsts' is it just first records that exist in stock? suggestion add final frontier ;p more bonuses
<NathanKell|Twitch>
lamont: Pap is rewriting it yes
<NathanKell|Twitch>
expect it real soon
<Pap>
Agathorn: I have seen 0 failures in the NathanKell|Twitch stream, TF is broken
<Agathorn>
he cheats
<Agathorn>
probably disabled it
<Pap>
OK, that's what I assumed ;)
<lamont>
whoah that looks like a principia navball
<NathanKell|Twitch>
Pap: First launch yesterday, failed at 57 seconds of 1m burntime
<rsparkyc>
lamont, it is
<xShadowx>
i saw it fail, his TF works :)
<Agathorn>
omg you lost 3 secodns of burntime! The horrors
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<Agathorn>
YAY! I have the ability to save custom hardware now
<Agathorn>
Just made a custom tank and saved it to disk in the local save game :)
<Agathorn>
and then restarted the game and it loaded into the dastabase fine
<Agathorn>
ah its the little things I guess.. but things like this make me feel like progress is being made
<rsparkyc>
haha, i know the feeling
<rsparkyc>
soundnfury: it would be cool if your RIS mod kept track of highest/fastest manned/unmanned vessels
<NathanKell>
Agathorn, awesome!
* lamont
is betting the field
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc, soundnfury YES
<rsparkyc>
i guess i should grind out some missions so i'm not holding up progress :)
<NathanKell>
Yeah I wanna see if you beat me to Karman :D
<rsparkyc>
haha, yeah, not happening
<rsparkyc>
did you get your launch pad upgrade progressions worked in yet?
<rsparkyc>
i remember you saying tier 1 would be 20T?
<xShadowx>
rsparkyc NathanKell few lines up i suggested tracking all the firsts in final frontier mod ;3
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: No, I realized it would kill saves as much as the tech tree
<xShadowx>
toooons of firsts in it
<NathanKell>
sadly
<NathanKell>
so I'll do it with the tree
<rsparkyc>
ok, so for the "race", we can go up to the max the pad allows
<rsparkyc>
just no "adding fuel on the pad" hacks :)
<Pap>
I know his TF works, was just giving Agathorn a hard time
<Pap>
;)
<xShadowx>
NK does seem to have rather good luck on his failure rolls tho :|
<Agathorn>
does he use R&R?
<Agathorn>
err R&D
<Agathorn>
ok important question
<xShadowx>
42
<Agathorn>
Tank/Stage Height or Tank/Stage Length
<Pap>
Length
<Agathorn>
The literature is mixed.. I was originally using height because it made more sense to me, but i'm seeing both used online
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<xShadowx>
Height
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: Holy crap going to the AC did fix the names!
<Agathorn>
:p
<NathanKell>
nice!
<rsparkyc>
awesome
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: Yeah, no h4x0rz :]
<rsparkyc>
the fact that test flight works now is my favorite
<rsparkyc>
not test flight
<rsparkyc>
remote tech
<Agathorn>
:(
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: tank height or tank length?
<NathanKell>
length
<NathanKell>
ohnoes! I can't connect to soundnfury's server
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: TF failure weight, what is the reason to stick to power of 2s?
<NathanKell>
huh, fixed by hitting refresh 3 times
<Agathorn>
relative consistency with other configs
<Agathorn>
that way you always know something is twice as likely or half as likely as others..if everyone used whatever weighting they wanted it would be more confusing
<Agathorn>
but there isn't anything forcing it
<xShadowx>
code wise i see nothing stopping othe numbers, so its purely a perceived balance issue?
<Agathorn>
yes
<xShadowx>
kk
<Agathorn>
internal consistency within a set of configs is desireable, but if you wanted to do something different you could
<SpecimenSpiff>
is it too late to get in on the race?
<xShadowx>
just tweaking my install :)
<NathanKell>
dinner, o/
<Pap>
SpecimenSpiff: yes it is for this one, but I am sure therer will be plenty more!
<SpecimenSpiff>
:(
<SpecimenSpiff>
I took too long getting my install working I guess
<rsparkyc>
this is either going to work or i'm going to kill a kerbal...
<rsparkyc>
rushing a build should make test flight fail more
<Pap>
Are you in the race rsparkyc?
<rsparkyc>
yeah
<Pap>
Good luck!
<rsparkyc>
hey pap, isn't the karman line 100km?
<Pap>
yes
<rsparkyc>
your contract says 140
<Pap>
The text?
<rsparkyc>
ahh, yeah
<rsparkyc>
just the text
<Pap>
Error, thanks (so far you have been the only one to find them and I really appreciate it!)
<rsparkyc>
lol
<rsparkyc>
i feel like rushing a build should get progressively more expensive
<Agathorn>
rsparkyc: it should but I never found a way to do it
<Agathorn>
TF I mean
<Agathorn>
as for costs, I thought it DID get more expensive the more you rushed it
<rsparkyc>
160 funds each time for me...
<Agathorn>
the same rocklet rushed more than once? Or multiple rockets rushed?
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: if you can find a way to grab 'is being rushed' from kct (or PR in hook) then TF core i think it was has a realiability multiplier that defaults to 1.0, can loop parts and set it to 0.8 or w/e direction fails more ;3
<Agathorn>
just do like I do when one of my xcom soldiers dies and rage quit
<Pap>
I don't have small seperator motors abailable from the beginning? Only the medium ones?
<Agathorn>
xShadowx: sure I just never found a way to determine from KCT that a launched rocket had been rushed
<Agathorn>
though to be honest I didn't look all that hard, as the request was made sometime after I had gone into maintenence mode
<xShadowx>
ah and vessel isnt spawned until rush is done >.>
<Agathorn>
exactly
<xShadowx>
kct has to save it somehow though
<Agathorn>
would almost be easier if KCT itself did it to be honest
<Agathorn>
the TF API would let it do that
<Agathorn>
KCT could even add in an option for a longer build with better reliability :D
<xShadowx>
so go poke magico :D
<Agathorn>
not my feature request :)
<Agathorn>
rsparkyc can go poke him :)
<xShadowx>
not my idea either:P
<xShadowx>
heh
<rsparkyc>
lol
<Pap>
Pray for me Agathorn
<rsparkyc>
NathanKell|AFK: Karman line 69 days, had to rush two flights a LOT (from 25 days down to 5). First one exploded, but crew survived, second one made it up to about 159km
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<rsparkyc>
i also didn't do any uncrewed test flights before those launches, BUT, no reverting
<rsparkyc>
(except for on the pad where my vessels parts got shifted around a bit)
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<NathanKell>
!tell rsparkyc Dag Nabbit! Congrats, definite congrats. Oh, and rushbuilding does cost extra. You rush 10% _of the remaining stuff to build_ for a fixed fee. So 10%, 19%, 27%, etc.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell>
Agathorn ^
<NathanKell>
Pap: The small seps are in Stock Revamp Continued
<Pap>
Ah, I just removed that one
<NathanKell>
Also check your tech tree: if you installed that after you started the career they will show up in the start node but you will have to unlock them.
<Pap>
Thanks
<xShadowx>
thats whatcha get fer usin linux :P
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<TheKosmonaut>
Shoot. NathanKell I figured out what you do at Valve.
<SpecimenSpiff>
I dont use that particular device, but Sous Vide is indeed the correct way to do a steak
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<xShadowx>
NathanKell|VICTORY: victory is only obtained through format
<xShadowx>
whatcha tryin to fix?:)
* xShadowx
regrets making water leak into tanks
<NathanKell|VICTORY>
getting a mythtv DVR set up for Michelle
<NathanKell|VICTORY>
I gotta sleep tho, o/
<xShadowx>
o/ night
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<Theysen>
mroning rocket freaks
<xShadowx>
what altitude do do planes fly, and still breathe atmosphere oxygen (not using onboard supplies)?
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<Theysen>
xShadowx, depends on the aircraft actually
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<Theysen>
B2's cruise at 50k feet, the U2 had 70k ft+ with a turbofan engine and no
<Theysen>
sustained air breathing flight might be possible with supersonic (sc)ramjets at even higher altitude and higher speeds
<Sigma88>
He means people breathing
<Sigma88>
Not engines
<Theysen>
"planes breathe atmosphere oxygen" no word about people
<Theysen>
if really people you are forced to carry oxygen above 14k ft if you're in an unpressurized cabin
<Theysen>
above 10k feet you can get problems if you're there for a longer time of flight
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<soundnfury>
!tell rsparkyc simply tracking highest/fastest might be doable; working with the speed/alt record contracts would be v. hard
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<soundnfury>
!tell xShadowx it's not stock's first records; it's firsty contracts in RP-0. Also, FF is cool but doesn't do anything for unmanned vessels
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<soundnfury>
!tell rsparkyc and at the moment RIS relies on the contract system because that means it doesn't have to measure / track anything itself, and gives discrete 'X achieved' dates
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<soundnfury>
!tell rsparkyc combining multiple streams of date/record pairs seems like it would be hard for the server, too.
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Pap>
At this point of the development cycle, this should actually be a good thing, right?
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<Sigma88>
Just ksp?
<Sigma88>
Or the whole squad?
<Theysen>
TT -> Squad -> KSP
<Sigma88>
So they acquired squad
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<riocrokite>
more like they sold distribution (IP) rights for KSP to T2 with a clause that squad remains the main dev of that game
<Theysen_>
We are getting more resources, so you could expect good things :D
<Theysen_>
from the forums
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<riocrokite>
do you think T2 might delegate some of their employees to work on KSP code then?
<riocrokite>
or just squad receive additional funds to hire more people to work on the title?
<Theysen_>
more kerbucks
<Pap>
Even if T2 just does a better job of marketing and managing the community, it will go a long way to making KSP better once again in the eyes of many, just my opinion
<Theysen_>
they want to make the DLC a big thing and so make big the price too
<rsparkyc>
o/
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [31.05.2017 04:42:24]: "Dag Nabbit! Congrats, definite congrats. Oh, and rushbuilding does cost extra. You rush 10% _of the remaining stuff to build_ for a fixed fee. So 10%, 19%, 27%, etc."
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [31.05.2017 10:35:06]: "and at the moment RIS relies on the contract system because that means it doesn't have to measure / track anything itself, and gives discrete 'X achieved' dates"
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [31.05.2017 10:30:38]: "simply tracking highest/fastest might be doable; working with the speed/alt record contracts would be v. hard"
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [31.05.2017 10:36:28]: "combining multiple streams of date/record pairs seems like it would be hard for the server, too."
<rsparkyc>
wow…lot's of messages
<riocrokite>
well they will need more than just RD to work on it then
<rsparkyc>
tell soundnfury, yeah, i see what you mean about calculating date pairs, do you have a git repo with race into space? maybe i could take a look
<rsparkyc>
soundnfury: also, it would be nice if you could click on the player and see when they've completed their contracts
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] SirKeplan pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/vHBYr
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master a511c04 PhineasFreak: Shielded PP tank fix
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master a2b15b5 SirKeplan: Merge pull request #1658 from PhineasFreak/RO-PP-Shielded-Fix...
<rsparkyc>
instead of having to click on the contract instead
<Probus>
\o xShadowx, What's your take on the takeover?
<xShadowx>
Probus: takeover?o.o
<Qboid>
xShadowx: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [31.05.2017 10:33:20]: "it's not stock's first records; it's firsty contracts in RP-0. Also, FF is cool but doesn't do anything for unmanned vessels"
<xShadowx>
soundnfury: the point was for tracking more 'firsts', highest G for a kerbal, fastest vessel, etc
<xShadowx>
no moe squad?
<Probus>
Oh... Wouldn't that be awesome Theysen_!
<Probus>
The money... not the control...
<xShadowx>
ah
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<xShadowx>
who wlked away with the millions i wonder?;p
<xShadowx>
and how many of said millions
<xShadowx>
^ would be my take :3
<Theysen_>
maybe more like thank god someone bought it and puts his money in? Instead of selling to make money at SQUAD? :D
<xShadowx>
its right before the DLC, and a DLC coming out makes $ (usually) so good time for others to jump into the pot ;3
<Theysen_>
the DLC is gonna be so good :)
* xShadowx
will wait for the free mod ;3
<Theysen_>
oh wait .. /s
<xShadowx>
it seems kinda funny timing
<Probus>
xShadowx, we want Squad/whoever to make money with DLC. The more money they make, the more content is going to be added to KSP.
<xShadowx>
just been what a couple weeks since valve admitted most of ksp devs went to valve o.O
<Theysen_>
i really wonder how they are gonna implement the DLC though, if it comes like the other mods, well rip
<Probus>
Wadaya mean Theysen_?
<xShadowx>
Theysen_: asteroid day dlc :P
<Theysen_>
if it is something that comes to be dropped into the GameData folder, have fun with the piracx
<Agathorn>
morning
<xShadowx>
Theysen_: it doesnt need gamedata folder for that lol
<Probus>
o/
<Theysen_>
xShadowx, what?
<Theysen_>
you think they'll do double installers, one with and one without the dlc?
<Probus>
How have other games done it?
<xShadowx>
Theysen_: files can go anywhere a dev wants them to go, i have no dout itll still be in ksp folder, i would find it less likely to be in gamedata (aside from any parts they add) but either case has no effect on piracy
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<xShadowx>
with steam it just drops dlc files where told to
<Theysen_>
"KSP will continue as a Kid-friendly game" damn, no new gore animations for kerbals being slaughtered by the Kraken
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<Theysen_>
oi Starwaster o/ Wasn't that the guy from the RF thread, too? :D But because people decided to be annoyed by me and ignore me I just didn't post another "complain"... - Gordon Dry
<xShadowx>
why has there not been a gore mod?
<xShadowx>
i never really thought of it but now im kinda surprised
<xShadowx>
every game has gore nowadays ;p
<Starwaster>
theysen uh whut? I just woke up so I havcew hnoi idea what's going on
<Pap>
xShadowx: very different atmosphere between GTA and KSP
<xShadowx>
before the acquiring sure ;p
<Pap>
GTA is the highest selling game of all time
<Pap>
It was designed to have microtransactions as part of the online experience, removing multiplayer mods that would eliminate that, makes sense to me from a business point of view
<Starwaster>
great so now Jeb is going to be knocking over little old Kerbal women and stealing their rockets
<xShadowx>
Pap: the same can be said for any existing mods that may conflict with dlc
<xShadowx>
existing or future
<Starwaster>
until the kerbal kops korner him and fill him full of lead.... then he wakes up at the hospital in Kerbin City and starts it all over again
<xShadowx>
o.O lol
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<ferram4>
I expect only good things to happen.
<stratosleep>
ferram4: that seems... out of character :P
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<stratochief>
Pap: I had some thoughts on tech tree, if you're around
<stratochief>
I'm not sure which branch it should best go in, but IMO there should be a place for advanced entry systems, landers. for example, inflatable heatshields, HAIDs, Ballutes
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<stratochief>
and possibly inflatable balloons for raising things from the surface of Venus? or hell, for supporitng balloon bases, why not? :P
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<Pap>
hey stratochief
<stratochief>
for example, riocrite has made some great Ballutes we can configure for RO, and I've seen at least one mod that includes bouyant balloons, I think. also, stock has an inflatable heat shield
<Pap>
I was talking with NathanKell last night and am looking at alternative ideas for the tree
<Pap>
He was talking about making sure that there are Blueky technologies to research as well as applied technologies
<Pap>
I came up with an idea that was something like this...
<Pap>
So essentially, there is Materials Science and Electronics that are researched to unlock groups
<Pap>
So essentially every major tier would be unlocked by researching a bluesky tech
<stratochief>
gotcha, I think.
<Pap>
He had said basically the bluesky tech would cost say 10 science and then the branching techs would cost 10 science instead of the branches costing 10 science
<Pap>
The tree would be pretty standard to the current RP-0 tree up to about 1960 ish time frame then it would become bluesky focused
<Pap>
We didn't have time to talk about whether this new idea of mine would work in his mind, this is obviously very preliminary, so your feedback stratochief (and everyone else) would be greatly appreciated
<Probus>
pap, would you use that framework with an "era" system? For instance tech from Sputnik to Voshkod, or lets say Mercury to Gemini?
<Pap>
Yes Probus that would be the exact idea!
<stratochief>
Probus: IIRC, the nodes are kind of year-based. so, a little but, but not so linear as being attached to explicit historic systems
<Pap>
But it would be like the Era of Early Capsules
<Pap>
Then the Era of Advanced Capsules and interplanetary probes
<Pap>
Then the Era of Moon Landings
<Pap>
Then the Era of Space Stations and Deep Space Probes
<Pap>
Then the era of Space Shuttle (and associated rockets)
<Pap>
Then the Era of Long Term Space Habitaiton
<Pap>
Then the Era of Interplanetary Exploration
<Pap>
Those are all generic and just off the top of my head right now, but that is kinda the thought in my head
<stratochief>
Pap: so, in looking at your Blue Sky Idea Random tree, I can't quite figure where I would put in advanced entry systems. possibly 'flight control', or 'avionics/probe cores' ?
<Pap>
That is a good question stratochief, I would think they could fit in Flight Control and it could be renamed / thought of as Flight Control and EDL?
<stratochief>
no need to figure it out now, worth mulling over. I'll poke NK to let his brain ferment the question as well
<stratochief>
!tell NathanKell* Where in a tech tree/ Pap's tree would you place advanced entry systems, like balloons for Venus, or Ballutes/HAIDs and inflatable shields for Mars?
<Qboid>
stratochief: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
I would be ok with combining Flight Control and Avionics / Probe Cores together and creating a EDL grouping on it's own as it is obviously very important
<stratochief>
EDL hardware is kind of specialized, so it might make sense to have in its own branch, yeah. some people would just ignore it, and that would be fine
<stratochief>
and yeah, I could see Flight Control and Avionics/Probe Cores being combined, they are somewhat similar
<Pap>
There is also still plenty of room to have 3 separate branches for all of them as well
<stratochief>
would "storage & generation" include ISRU, batteries, and solar panels? that could potentially specialize/fission down the line as well. speaking of fission, RTGs and advanced nuclear electrical sources :P
<Pap>
That is really the 2 places that I am having the most trouble with right now, how do I have Nuclear Power separate from Nuclear Rockets? I also believe that the Electrical Blue Sky node will be a pre-requisite for the Ion/Electric Propulsion branch
<Pap>
I would be ok with grouping all Power Generation and Storage into the same category, but I will take some direction from others on that
<stratochief>
Nuclear Power could come off of "Storage and Generation", requiring Electrical 2 & Mat Science 2 to be researched?
<Pap>
That would make sense, I'll put it above Storage and Generation, would work perfectly
<Probus>
Pap, you might try pulling up my Engineering Tech Tree as a reference. Might give you some ideas.
<stratochief>
the challenge with grouping lots of things together means that people are forced to pay for both the baby and the bathwater for 20 Science, instead of just getting the bit or two they want for 5 or 10
<stratochief>
the downisde of dividing into more specialized nodes is... more work for the tree creator :)
<Pap>
I am not worried about the extra nodes, I am worried about the balance of science points vs unlock times with KCT
<Pap>
It is going to take some extensive play-testing by a lot of people to get that balance correct
<Pap>
To me, the more specialized nodes, the better
<Pap>
As an aside, NASA just announced it is sending a sapcecraft to the Sun in 2018, interesting
<stratochief>
indeed. I've read about that probe/plan for a few years now, it is an interesting/challenging one
<stratochief>
yeah, we don't need to worry about the higher node cost balancing in the near-term, the prices could be set to token low values for now. we can't really work out balancing until we decide what will give science (ie. will DMagic become standard, or just wallpaper?) so we have an idea of how much science users will have to play with at different points
<Pap>
Correct, that will affect a lot of our decisions. We also might need to re-work the KCT research unlock formula to better balance times as well
<stratochief>
IMO, ScanSat should become required, since it gives the detailed maps of the Moon, Mars, and other bodies to enable well planned landings. I personally haven't touched DMagic, but I understand other people like the variety of experiments
<Pap>
I agree with SCANsat
<stratochief>
the Scansat parts beyond the first one still need to be configured for RO, IIRC. and also massed, priced, etc. oh, balancing :S
<Pap>
I have used DMagic in almost every playthrough I have had in KSP, but it does give way too much science if not balanced correctly
<Pap>
Yes to SCANsat balancing
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<xShadowx>
Pap: thats where to tone down science gains :)
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<stratochief>
balancing for multiple scenarios (ie. If you have Dmagic take 70% science payout, of not take 100%) is more complicated and challenging, so I suggest we just pick a default, whatever you, rsparkyc, NK and others think is fine
<xShadowx>
o/ NK
<xShadowx>
seen the news of TT takeover ksp?
<Pap>
Too much science is given from it right now, I think it should be included as part of the contract system with VERY toned down science returns. Require a player to map the Moon before a human landing, etc
<Pap>
I agree stratochief
<NathanKell|WORK>
yep saw
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: stratochief left a message for you in #RO [31.05.2017 16:36:30]: "Where in a tech tree/ Pap's tree would you place advanced entry systems, like balloons for Venus, or Ballutes/HAIDs and inflatable shields for Mars?"
<Pap>
Correct xShadowx
<rsparkyc>
yeah, i like dmagic, but science payouts are high
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: your thoughts on it?:|
<stratochief>
Pap: yeah, cash payouts for mapping the planets may be better than science. IMO, human landings should be allowed before the moon is well mapped, but perhaps biome specific landing contracts only come after you've mapped it?
<Pap>
That is a great idea stratochief, the targeted landings only come when you actually know where they are
<xShadowx>
or if landing at <point> can require mapping <point> first
<NathanKell|WORK>
I have no concrete thoughts on it. I mean, it was coming--it was clear they wanted to cash out on the IP.
<stratochief>
historically, the US did agressively map the Moon before doing a human landing, but limitted mapping would have been enough for flag and footprints
<NathanKell|WORK>
Hopefuly JPLRepo and TriggerAu get to stay on, because they're awesome
<NathanKell|WORK>
(assuming they want to stay on)
<Pap>
You can set it so that the Moon has to be any % of the way mapped, so let's say you have to have something like 40% of the Moon mapped in the lowest scan in order to put humans on the ground
<stratochief>
so, IMO highly detailed mapping isn't fully necessary for a human lanidng. it does have signifiant value for humanity regardless
<stratochief>
Pap: lol, that concept almost feels directly yanked from BARIS :P
<stratochief>
TriggerAu is working for Squad? awesome. I knew about JPLRepo
<Pap>
LOL, it might be, I base a lot of what I think KSP progression should be based on BARIS, lol
<NathanKell|WORK>
stratochief: Trigger was hired a month after me :P
<xShadowx>
Pap: can contracts require anomalies to be found first?
<stratochief>
yeah, we are all BARIS fans, and it provides a good skeleton
<stratochief>
NathanKell|WORK: regardless, 'today I learned' :)
<xShadowx>
This day in history~
<NathanKell|WORK>
^_^
<stratochief>
I was ready to plow ahead with my Mars Direct, but then I realized I need a larger than 10m system for landing my ~40T return vehicle on Mars, and that isn't really plausible without an inflatible or otherwise extentable shield (with a 6.6m or 10m Saturn V fairing) :(
<Thomas>
o/ NathanKell|WORK
<stratochief>
so, I might push outside that alt-timeline and just do it anyway, or re-consider doing Semi-Direct
<Pap>
stratochief and NathanKell|WORK what is slowing us down from releasing RP-0 1.2.2?
<NathanKell|WORK>
If you think the contracts are solid then we're good to go I think
<NathanKell|WORK>
but I gotta go, scrummy time
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<xShadowx>
o/
<stratochief>
Pap: from me? my absolute lack of time. If NK et al find your contracts to be solid, that should be sufficient for a release
<Pap>
I am assuming that we will include the new contracts and the updates that are currently in place, and then the next release (whether for 1.2.2 or 1.3) will include the save breaking new tech tree and building additions
<Theysen_>
contracts are buneo in my playthrough
<stratochief>
IMO, giving it another week for people to continue using your contracts is probably a good idea
<Theysen_>
no just rush it out :^)
<Pap>
That sounds good to me stratochief
<stratochief>
Theysen_: how far have you gone with them? did you start from a fresh start?
<Theysen_>
0 - Lunar Landing
<Theysen_>
on hard with "old" tech tree
<Pap>
rsparkyc: has found some annoying little bugs that needed to be fixed, he has an eye for bug squashing
<stratochief>
Pap: so far, all the big problems people have mentioned have been "it says Karman Line and 140km in the text, but is successful at 100km" ie. no big deal problems
<Pap>
Yep, that one is fixed
<stratochief>
Theysen_: nice. what about station, GEO/GTO, longer lunar duration, etc contracts?
<stratochief>
or, Rover?
<Theysen_>
as long as you don't tab out for the duration contracts - no issues for me, but that I knew from 1.1.3 still
<Theysen_>
everything was configured fine, I always got my Kollar$ and Rep, progression made sense
<Theysen_>
I didn't proof read anything
<rsparkyc>
somehow i broke procedural avionics again, configurations don't seem to load properly when the part is placed, so i'm looking into that
<Theysen_>
just looked at mission parameters
<stratochief>
Pap: your earlier judgement for releases looks correct to me, yep.
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<Pap>
ok stratochief
<rsparkyc>
… and this is why you shouldn't commit binaries
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<NathanKell|WORK>
10:01] <Pap> I am assuming that we will include the new contracts and the updates that are currently in place, and then the next release (whether for 1.2.2 or 1.3) will include the save breaking new tech tree and building additions <<<< sounds good
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<leudaimon>
o/
<Pap>
hey leudaimon, how's it going?
<leudaimon>
hey Pap! doing fine, did you see my suggestion about the biomes?
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<Pap>
I did leudaimon, I think that will be a decision that gets made after we look at all of the Science surrounding RP-0 with the new tree and other things we were talking about. It makes sense what you were saying though with your groupings
<NathanKell|WORK>
^
<leudaimon>
yeah, there are many possibilities, but I guess the first thing is to decide how many biomes we want. the only thing I would change no matter what is the Chaparral, that technically occurs only in California and is just another woodland
<leudaimon>
pretty similar to other savannas
<Agathorn>
hey guys.. still very much a work in progress but that OMG website is now online at http://outermarkergames.com/
<Agathorn>
So anyway I know its ugly and I will make it look better over time..but for now there is the one place to go to keep track of development
<Agathorn>
regex: All that does it make me remember I haven't eaten yet today
<regex>
then go eat. :P
<stratochief|away>
Agathorn: what? no "GameyMcGameface" option?
<stratochief|away>
Agathorn: btw, new website looks slick
<Agathorn>
intetinally lol
<regex>
Agreed, new website is pretty slick
<Agathorn>
its ugly! You guys are weird
<regex>
Nah, it's simple, concise, content-focused, and not glaringly terrible.
<stratochief|away>
Agathorn: we recognize improvement, and understand 'perfection' is uneffible and not worth the time :P
<regex>
That's slick nowadays.
<Agathorn>
:)
<regex>
and I don't mean to imply that it's terrible.
<regex>
was more refering to the color choices.
<regex>
that weren't terrible.
<regex>
lolchrist I should just stop
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<CobaltWolf>
o/
<Theysen_>
dang NK busy on the forums :D
<CobaltWolf>
oh?
<Theysen_>
unread threads is full of his avatar ^^
<Pap>
I should have stayed off the Take Two Reddit thread, these people are f-ing morons
<CobaltWolf>
yup
<Theysen_>
you're getting flamed?
<CobaltWolf>
naw they're just retarded
<Agathorn>
shocker there
<Agathorn>
let me guess, it is all about corporate greed and how TTI is going to destroy the game with a million DLC etc etc
<Theysen_>
why can't i find your name Pap
<Theysen_>
or didn't you post at all just read
<Theysen_>
i assume
<Agathorn>
I swear gamers today just want people to pour their lives into creating games and then give them away for free
<Pap>
I was just reading Theysen_ I couldn't have responded to most of what I was reading without screaming at people
<regex>
The forum thread is salty AF
<Pap>
Everyone complains that Squad has not delivered on x,y,z and all the good devs have left and KSP is dead
<regex>
or at least ZNG is, I'm drinking tears for days
<Agathorn>
lol
<NathanKell|WORK>
tbh the reddit thread seems fairly sane.Squad isn't FIraxis.
<Agathorn>
the average gamer today is a self entitled bastard
<regex>
confirmed
<CobaltWolf>
I'm more just confused at how much everyone has latched on to the Rockstar/GTA thing
<Pap>
Then, a company comes along to add money to the IP and it is a flame on TT about how they are going to ruin the game and modding
<Pap>
That is what I am referring to CobaltWolf
<CobaltWolf>
like, I don't associate Take Two with tat
<Agathorn>
or bitch.. let me not be sexist
<regex>
so like, how are they going to "ruin modding"?
<regex>
seriously?
<Agathorn>
News at 11: Games cost money to make, business insist on staying in business
<regex>
ZNG: "Profit at all costs" well no shit dude, see qabove.
<Agathorn>
Frankly i'm rather surprised Squad hasn't already gone out of business unless they're marketing work is what has kept them afloat because KSP itself probably isn't
<Agathorn>
Public companies actually have a legal obligation to make money :)
<CobaltWolf>
I thought Squad was always going to be fine, it was just a matter of how long they continued to update KSP
<regex>
All the more reason to get some bread before you run out of it.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: You underestimate just how insanely popular KSP actually is
<NathanKell|WORK>
and how low their margins are
<CobaltWolf>
^
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|WORK: I knoiw its popular sure, but maybe i'm underestimating how many copies they sell per month
<Agathorn>
or they didn't pay you guys worth shit
<regex>
both
<Pap>
I do assume that we will see a bunch of DLC from TT
<NathanKell|WORK>
a figure of ~2.5 million leaked about a year ago, before consoles
<NathanKell|WORK>
copies, not dollars
<Agathorn>
but that doesn't tell me anything about regular sales
<Pap>
I am also curious whether they will try to make RSS one of those DLC's, that actually wouldn't surprise me
<xShadowx>
i thought ksp sold >25mil?
<Agathorn>
if you're paying for developers, artists, infrustrucutre, etc.. you need regular money coming in
<NathanKell|WORK>
xShadowx: Hahano. 25mil even at 10 a copy would be 250 million. That's crazy territory
<Agathorn>
Personally I love DLC
<xShadowx>
2.5mil * $40 = $100mil
<Agathorn>
It lets a developer add content in a financially responsible way and keep a game feeling new and fresh for years or decades even
<NathanKell|WORK>
early access price, sale price, Steam's cut.
<Agathorn>
And if you don't like the DLC, don't buy it.. it really is that simple
<regex>
most of those copies probably averaged $15~$20
<regex>
I would guess
<Pap>
yeah Agathorn but remember that costs of operating a business in Meixico City is much lower than most of the rest of the world
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: The point is, how will they make DLC not-easily-shareable in a way that doesn't cripple moddability?
<regex>
and that's still some Scrouge McDuck territory for a little marketing firm
<Pap>
We have a plant in Mexico and I know how much they make to live off of
<xShadowx>
even $20mil for a game, thats a lot, over 5 yr of ksp thats 4mil/yr
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|WORK: not shareable? They won't
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: that is a big concern of mine as well
<Agathorn>
No game has managed it
<NathanKell|WORK>
You think Take Two will be happy to not even try? :P
<Agathorn>
Locking down DLC though doesn't neccesarily intersect with Modding
<Pap>
That is one of the issues with a lot of the EUIV mods, they are rendered obsolete once a quarter or so
<ferram4>
I expect shit will happen.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: Ok, so how exactly are you locking down parts of GameData but not others?
<ferram4>
But I'm known for being sunshine and rainbows.
<Pap>
Agathorn: yes it does. You will have to have a version of RO that works with this DLC, that DLC, only stock, all DLCs, etc
<NathanKell|WORK>
also that
<Pap>
Impossible to manage for modders
<Agathorn>
not neccesarily
<ferram4>
NathanKell|WORK, you don't lock down GameData. You distribute a new KSP build, with new code modules, with DRM. :D
<regex>
haha, the Bethesda game model of modding
<Agathorn>
I mean it can get complicated yes, but lots of other games work
<NathanKell|WORK>
It's possible yeah
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|WORK: you dont.. you just have the DLC distributed in another method that is encrypted
<NathanKell|WORK>
but probably not felt to be worth the cost on either end
<NathanKell|WORK>
(I mean, I know our buds will fight to the death, but they might lose :P )
* xShadowx
downloads latest update of every mod and hides in bunker
<Agathorn>
It isn't that hard.. in fact you can do it with AssetBundles in Unity
<Pap>
xShadowx: has good ideas
<Agathorn>
I mean someone will crack them.. sure enough.. but still
<Pap>
Here is my question....what can they possibly release as DLC that has not been done by mods?
<Theysen_>
that was my idea too, at least make it not as easy as GameDtaa
<ferram4>
They can't.
<Agathorn>
as for the game changing and making mods hard.. yeah thats a natural extension really of any game moving forward.. you can't say we haven't already dealt with it
<Theysen_>
Mission Maker, thats it so far
<ferram4>
But they can try and fuck with the mods that do what their DLC does.
<xShadowx>
Pap: things they can claim for themselves and shut down said mods - see GTA V
<Agathorn>
so many glass is half empty guys in here... lets just damn people before they've even done anythign worth being damned for
<regex>
I'm surprised I'm in your corner right now Agathorn
<Pap>
xShadowx: I get it, but everyone cannot point to the GTA example as anything that is a trend. GTA is in a whole other world of gaming than almost every other game that has ever existed
<Agathorn>
Anyway I ordered pizza, so gonna go eat and watch a movie and leave you all with "innocent until proven guilty" which I know is old fashioned these days but whatever :)
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: theyve done it in the past, so 'before they do it' doesnt qualify
<Pap>
I am also in your corner Agathorn
<Pap>
I also think pizza is great
<xShadowx>
mmm pizza
<CobaltWolf>
can I have some?
<xShadowx>
i met a guy who hated pizza
<xShadowx>
i dont get it
<Theysen_>
crime
<ferram4>
I'll stand by my expectation of something bad, even if I don't know what. It's never been proven wrong yet. :P
<regex>
Eh, I've been pretty much done playing this game for months now, can't be bothered to care much.
<Theysen_>
Though I don't understand people who put ananas on their pizza. or "Pizza Bolognese" with a sh**load of minced beef on it oO
<regex>
I'm sure I'll grab a 1.3 RO copy for posterity's sake
<xShadowx>
if RO goes 1.3 :P
<regex>
vOv
<Theysen_>
for me it feels complete at the moment, of course subjective. Any change will come with a higher version number so idc atm
<Pap>
Can things be bad? Yes. However, many of us have not had a lot of confidence in the direction that Squad was headed with the game. It is a 3 year old game that needs some new life
<regex>
true that
<xShadowx>
3? uh
<regex>
lol
<Pap>
I agree with you Theysen_ 1.2.2 is feature complete with the mods I want to have, anything after this is a bonus
<Pap>
xShadowx: would you say older?
<xShadowx>
mucho older
<Pap>
I am talking just from official broken 1.0 release
<xShadowx>
ya im not :P
<Pap>
I know it has been around for 5 years, and damn do some of the models look like it ;)
<xShadowx>
i count game age from when it gets enough features to be a playable game and provide enjoyment
<Pap>
So would you say the 0.23 release?
<xShadowx>
ish
<Pap>
Or when NathanKell|WORK added RSS?
<xShadowx>
^
<xShadowx>
lol
<regex>
I count it from when Arcturus was around and I started to really get interested in how badly KSP did things.
<Pap>
Hot Take!: Next week it is announced that Valve has acquired Take Two and NathanKell|WORK has been sandbagging us all along! <---this is sarcasm
<CobaltWolf>
teabagging*
<xShadowx>
^ would accually enjoy that
<Theysen_>
HAHA :D
<Theysen_>
rekt
<xShadowx>
-.-
<regex>
lol, does NK even want to work on KSP anymore, expecially with Rover as an employee?
<Theysen_>
you gotta mob somebody in a firm /s
<regex>
I'm convinced it won't be a company that ruins this game, it'll be Rover
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<xShadowx>
ouch
<Pap>
<regex> I'm convinced it won't be a company that ruins this game, it has been Rover <---- FTFY
<regex>
hahaha
<Theysen_>
Pap wins
<xShadowx>
regardless of what happens, i have my ksp install, and modders can make mods for forever, so <3
<Theysen_>
^
<Pap>
^^
<regex>
Totally
<Theysen_>
Agathorn, is your game commercial or "just" a free time project atm?
<Pap>
I am still surprised that xShadowx admitted publicly that he wanted some teabagging
<regex>
I'll still "buy a copy" as promised
<acc>
me too
<Theysen_>
Pap, each to their own, we don't judge people here :^)
<xShadowx>
if ksp screws modders (for argument) and modders in return dont update mods (just stay 1.2.2) i wonder whatd happen to ksp XD
<Theysen_>
develop a big illegal mod sharing scene and works in the shadows :^)
<acc>
ksp.onion
<acc>
:D
<acc>
with a bitcoin based donation system
* xShadowx
ties Pap to a rocket and crashes it into jupiter
<Theysen_>
lel
<Pap>
Speaking of Jupiter, have you all seen the epic images from Juno's latest pass?
<acc>
some, not all in detail yet
* Theysen_
admits he hasn't checked any space news for weeks
<acc>
burn the witch!
<Pap>
I'll post a link, these are pretty sharp
<Theysen_>
acc, go start your work and leave me alone :P
<Agathorn>
Theysen_: for now I am working on it in my spare time. The goal right now is to get to a playable but rough state then do a kickstarter to try and raise funds for polish, and then get it on Steam for sale
<Theysen_>
awesome plan Agathorn,if you ever need some math or formula done or so say something or even research, I'm bored sometimes
<Agathorn>
hehe trust me i'm asking math help on here almost every day :)
<Agathorn>
I am horrible at math - absolutely horrible
<Agathorn>
sometimes I wonder how I got so far as a programmer while sucking so bad at math
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* xShadowx
points at calculators
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<Agathorn>
The thrust values in the RO configs are vac thrust right? How would I calculate the SL thrust from that?
<leudaimon>
from SL Isp? or are you asking about the exact formula?
<leudaimon>
These jupiter images are so amazing!
<Agathorn>
I have vac thrust and I have SL and Vac Isp
<Agathorn>
and involves numbers I don't neccesarily have
<Theysen_>
give me a sec
<Agathorn>
Finding data on a lot of these part as we all know can be very hard, so might as well use the RO data where I can since we already went through the hard work of finding it
<Theysen_>
do you have the massflows?
<Agathorn>
probably not.. I have whatever is in the engine config in RO
<regex>
No mass flows are not in the config
<regex>
you need to calculate those based on resource density
<Agathorn>
ok I do have the densities
<regex>
So I think resource usage is in per seconds?
<regex>
so you can get the mass flow per second
<leudaimon>
are you sure Vac thrust/Isp and SL thrust/Isp don't work in a simple proportional way? You could look at SL thrust ingame and check what is the relationship
<Agathorn>
regex: of both combined? So just multiply the resource volume by the density?
<Agathorn>
and add the two?
<regex>
I think, never done it myself.
<Theysen_>
exactly agathorn
<Agathorn>
and Ve is Isp * 9.8 right?
<leudaimon>
yep
<regex>
9.80664
<Agathorn>
ok so thats most of that equation on the NASA page but don't I also need chamber pressure?
<Theysen_>
ou could otherwise just go ingame and copy the SL thrust from the menu
<Theysen_>
nope
<Theysen_>
when you have thrust
<Agathorn>
Theysen_: 1) I don't have KSP installed and 2) Going in game everytime to grab a number would be annoying
<Theysen_>
F = I x mdot
<Agathorn>
Isn;t the Pe-Po part talking about chamber pressure and ambient pressure?
<leudaimon>
go ingame to check if this conversion is trivial... or at least can be approached by simple proportion
<leudaimon>
after all, the game calculates that and does not have chamber pressure info
<Theysen_>
but you said you have the SL thrust
<Agathorn>
Theysen_: The config has the vac thrust
<Agathorn>
not SL
<Theysen_>
sorry, you said you have SL ISP
<Agathorn>
yes
<Theysen_>
so F_SL = Isp_SL x Mass flow
<Agathorn>
wehich lets me get Ve
<Agathorn>
ok thats a lot simpler than what that web page says
<Theysen_>
it's for a adapted nozzle
<leudaimon>
mass flow is the same as Vac
<Theysen_>
I'm looking at the error range it gives for some examples, do they need to be exactly?
<leudaimon>
so you can make a simple conversion
<Agathorn>
ok let me try this with known vaklues and see hoiw close I come
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<Theysen_>
it might be off for vacuum optimized core engines aka hydrolox boosters
<Agathorn>
err that doesn't give me numbers even close
<Agathorn>
ok so I did a test using the X-405 engine..
<Theysen_>
off by 10?
<Theysen_>
~10
<Agathorn>
config values: sl isp=270, kerosene volume = 0.3874, density 0.00082, lox volume=0.6126, density 0.001141
<Agathorn>
the known sl thrust for the engine is 123.8 kN
<Agathorn>
I got 274.49
<Theysen_>
but the SL isp is 248 according to sources
<Agathorn>
oh am I reading the curve backwards?
<Agathorn>
I did
<Agathorn>
ok well that gives me 252 kN
<Agathorn>
still wrong :)
<Theysen_>
mh, one sec
<leudaimon>
Agathorn, F_sl/Ve_sl = F_vac/Ve_vac considering mass flow is the same
<Theysen_>
yes that approach might be easier
<leudaimon>
or, even simpler, F_sl/ISP_sl = F_vac/ISP_vac
<leudaimon>
that's what I meant by proportional in the beggining
<leudaimon>
my guts said it had to be so, but I didn't have the formula
<Agathorn>
yep that hits it
<Agathorn>
makes sense in hindsight :)
<Agathorn>
thanks@
<Agathorn>
thanks!
<leudaimon>
:)
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<Agathorn>
finding the legth of various engines is goign to be hard
<Agathorn>
length*
<Agathorn>
hmm actually now that I think about it.. do I even need it? hmm
<Agathorn>
no I don't think I do
<leudaimon>
you would only need it for modelling, right?
<leudaimon>
diameter is more important
<Agathorn>
yeah I originally was going to use it for indicating stage height but I really don't need to do that
<Agathorn>
besides knowing it isn't helpful because poart of it would be in the skirt anyway and its just a soft number that can be thrown out.. serves no gameplay purpose really
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] PhineasFreak opened pull request #1660: SuperDraco global engine config updates (master...RO-SuperDraco-Global-Config-Updates) https://git.io/vHRG6
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] PhineasFreak opened pull request #1661: RealEngines v1.6 RO support (master...RO-RealEngines-1.6) https://git.io/vHRZh
<lamont>
aaaand now i’ve found the arguments about if delta-v calcs should be in the stock game or not and i can feel myself getting dumber…
<lamont>
‘k back to launching this bumper-WAC…
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<Rokker>
stratochief|away: soon
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: Isp just _is_ the relationship between propellant flow and thrust, it's how much thrust you get for a given propellant flow
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: So if you know vac thrust and vac Isp and SL Isp, SL thrust just _is_ vac thrust * SL Isp / Vac Isp, by definition
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<NathanKell|WORK>
unless the engine varies its propellant flow for some reason ( ferram4 can explain why, usually you get slightly higher flow in vacuum IIRC )
<Agathorn>
yeah well leasy for you to say :)
<Agathorn>
all I knew was the biug scary formula on that web page lol
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah that formula is if you don't have Isp, IIRC
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|WORK: since you are here for the moment.. can you give me an example engine in which a player could possibly "cheat" by using vac optimized engines? So I have a test case to use
<Agathorn>
I say cheat in regards to last nights discussion of not simulating varying Isp
<NathanKell|WORK>
Use an RL10 at sea level
<NathanKell|WORK>
Heck, use an AJ10-104D at sea level
<Wrecker>
Probably a dumb question but is RP-0 working with the current version?
egg|zzz|egg is now known as egg|df|egg
<Agathorn>
Wrecker: no
<Agathorn>
1.2
<ferram4>
Well, slightly higher propellant flow is somthing we've only confirmed for gas generator engines. I dunno about other types, they shouldn't be as affected.
<Agathorn>
not 1.3
<Wrecker>
Should I just get it off the Github?
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|WORK: ok thanks - will use those to make sure things are balanced
<egg|df|egg>
!wpn NathanKell|WORK
* Qboid
gives NathanKell|WORK a silly radon function
<Agathorn>
right now i'm trying out the idea of usiung an aggregate deltaV that is weighted towards Vac but not 100%
<Agathorn>
for the first stage
<Agathorn>
Wrecker: for 1.2 there shjould be a full release
<Agathorn>
for 1.3 -- we haven't even started
<NathanKell|WORK>
Does your algorithm use liftoff TWR at all?
<NathanKell|WORK>
or just dV and burn time
<ferram4>
Agathorn, don't do that. Make it clear enough that dV is lower in the atmosphere, add a slider to select atm pressure, and display that.
<lamont>
what is max du?
<ferram4>
Otherwise you WILL cause confusion when people compare low TWR and high TWR designs. And at different launch sites.
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|WORK: does use liftoff TWR
<Wrecker>
Agathorn: I see one for 1.1.2 not 1.2
<Agathorn>
ferram4: well the idea is to try and not model varying Isp at all
<ferram4>
For your dV calculation? Then you want to just stick with vac dV only.
<Agathorn>
ferram4: for the game in whole
<Wrecker>
Agathorn: I was talking about RP-0
<Wrecker>
But thanks anyway
<Agathorn>
but at the same time want to avoid the problem NathanKell|WORK and stratochief|away pointed out which is to not let peopel cheat by using powerful vac engines as first stage boosters
<Agathorn>
Wrecker: ahh rp-0 is not.. its a bit more confusing
<Wrecker>
Yeah no worries
<Wrecker>
NathanKell|
<Wrecker>
woops
<Wrecker>
Do you have a list of the mods that you are using for your current streams?
<Agathorn>
ferram4: so anyway what I was toying with at the moment was maybe show a "sl deltav" which is actually a sort of aggregate number of the two .. sort of bake some level of varying Isp into the data rather than simulate it - may not be the best idea but i'm trying it out for now
<ferram4>
Agathorn, that's gonna make things a LOT more complicated. I mean, you'll need the dV of a core stage to change based on whether you attach boosters or not, solely because of how much faster it can get out of the atmosphere.
<ferram4>
You'll also have weirdness with something like the R7 or Atlas.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Wrecker: I'll post one when I get home, it's pretty much RP-0's core modset alone, plus Soviet Engines (although that isn't hooked up right atm). Probably gonna change tonight sligtly
<Agathorn>
well i'm not physically simulating the ascent but rather simply qualifying a design as go/no-go based on a paper that I don't have a link to at the moment
<Agathorn>
then during mission the craft really just flies a predefined spline path for the video
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: Only ever use Vacuum delta V, except *maybe* during the first (30 seconds to 2m?, vary by TWR) of flight. But do use SL TWR for your TWR bit.
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|WORK: what i'm talking about now though is what numbers to display for the user's reference when they are designing a stage/rocket
<NathanKell|WORK>
(well, it has the pdf link)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: Vacuum dv and TWR except for the first (and zeroeth) stage
<Wrecker>
Thanks NathanKell|WORK that would be awesome, did you create your own tech tree?
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: you had mentioned that you wanted to move the A-4 Engine out of Start, does that mean only the Aerobee sustainer engine would be in the Start node?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Wrecker: Well, I created the original RP-0 tech tree, with some help. But Pap's making a new one
<NathanKell|WORK>
If that's what you mean
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: I'm not sure on that. I feel it's a bit OP for the true start node, but it's obviously available in 1951
<Wrecker>
I guess I mean without the core RP-0 mod do you need to recreate the tech tree in order for the game to play well in campaign?
<Pap>
That's where I am struggling as well, trying to match the unlocks to the start date of 1951, technically, a lot of the stuff should be unlocked already
<Wrecker>
HA what if we all had to start with planes in 1903
<Agathorn>
Wrecker: RP-0 *IS* the campaign mode.. without it there is just a mess of a tech tree that isn't playable
<Wrecker>
Ok yeah thats what I figured
<NathanKell|WORK>
Wrecker: Yes, RO is unplayable in career without RP-0.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah, ninjathorn!
<Wrecker>
Are you playing it now in 1.2 or are you back in 1.1.3 so you can use RP-0
<NathanKell|WORK>
1.2
<NathanKell|WORK>
it's working fine in 1.2
<NathanKell|WORK>
just haven't released it yet
<Agathorn>
there just isn't a release
<Agathorn>
pft
<Wrecker>
Oh gotcha
<Agathorn>
you have to do a bit of cobbling though
<Agathorn>
either compiling your own tree or getting one from elsewhere
<Agathorn>
which is why I suggested we should do a pre-release on GH so that there would be a compiled download available
<Wrecker>
lol anyone care to share :)
<Agathorn>
just grab the oen from a 1.1.3 install for now
<Agathorn>
it won't be 100% up to date but will be like 98% good
<Agathorn>
76% of those percentages were made up
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon: post yours maybe? IIRC you have the latest
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Yeah. That's one reason I originally didn't have the A-4 parts at all :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
So you had no guidance at all in the start node, and no heavy rocketry
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<NathanKell|WORK>
But, well, Taerobee is cool, and it _is_ 1951 after all, not 1944
<Pap>
I am leaning towards having only the Aerobee sustainer in the start node, a 1-Science node called Post-War Rocketry that has the A-4 and the XASR-1
<Rokker>
stratochief|away: SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Sounds good to me, also the RD-100
<NathanKell|WORK>
hmm, maybe put the XLR11 there too
<Rokker>
who is hyped for the launch
<Pap>
What time Rokker?
<Rokker>
Pap: like 2 hours 20 minutes
<Rokker>
til japan
<Rokker>
and then like 24 hours til spacex
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: I also created a Post-War Supersonic Plane Development ndoe for 1 science as well, then a follow-up node with the rest
<Rokker>
Pap: 2 days and 1.5 hours until ariane v
<NathanKell|WORK>
\o/
<Pap>
Damn, you wern't kidding when you said a busy week Rokker
<Rokker>
Pap: 4 days and 14 hours til the first GSLV Mk 3
<Rokker>
Pap: 7 days and 6 hours until the first proton launch of 2017
<Pap>
It is my daughter's first birthday tomorrow and the party on Saturday, so I have been limited in my Internet browsking for these
<Agathorn>
the XLR11 can be used to cheat so bad with sounding rockets
<NathanKell|WORK>
cheat? How so?
<Agathorn>
it has a burn time of like 5 years
<Wrecker>
well RIP I got a crash on loading
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<Agathorn>
can get a sounding rocket a lot higher with that thing than you can with the aerobee
<CobaltWolf>
o/
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: Yep, but you pay through the nose for it
<CobaltWolf>
wait what?
<CobaltWolf>
what are you using?
<Agathorn>
well sure
<Rokker>
Pap: and you got the launch video links in the far right
<Rokker>
altho india should be broadcasting, so idk why they dont list that
<Agathorn>
SpaceX is being insanely aggresive with their launch cadence
<Pap>
Agathorn: I was just looking at that as well
<Agathorn>
And for them to shcedule 5 heavys when they haven't even launched one yet :)
<Pap>
Solar Sail goes on the second one
<Agathorn>
I mean i'm all for it but I'm skeptical
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: what is a better sounding rocket...?
<Agathorn>
they basically are trying to go from a walk to a full out olympic sprint with nothing in between
<Agathorn>
gonna tear up their muscles :)
<Pap>
Agathorn: that is one of my worries when they go Crewed. Good thing NASA has final say on scrubbing launches
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: I was just saying you can do a sounding rocket with an XLR11 which feels like cheating but NathanKell|WORK was pointing out, rightfully, that it costs a lot more to do that
<CobaltWolf>
XLR11 is the X1 engine from Taerobee right?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Yep
<NathanKell|WORK>
Oh yeah, don't we have you (or someone in your team) to thank for the Aerobee in Taerobee?
<NathanKell|WORK>
that was a nice surprise to find on my return
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<Agathorn>
:D
<Agathorn>
priorities!
<CobaltWolf>
nathankell Yeah, one of my Bluedog co-authors did the first pass on the models, then I cleaned them up and textured them. They're kinda low quality cus I had to squeeze everything into a single 512
<CobaltWolf>
and then the other Bluedog co-author balanced and bugfixed them
<CobaltWolf>
I don't remember why we did them at 0.3125m, it seemed like a good idea at the time but now I regret it
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: Only suggestion I'd make is a type-in field for 'payload' so you can see what the stage delta V is with a nominal payload. Delta V for a first stage with nothing above it at all isn't terribly useful :]
<NathanKell|WORK>
CobaltWolf: Ah, well, we never actually care about initial size :P
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|WORK: well you wouldn't normally have a single stage with a payload either
<CobaltWolf>
true
<NathanKell|WORK>
Agathorn: Payload includes the upper stages
<NathanKell|WORK>
i.e. 'what is this stage lifitng'
<NathanKell|WORK>
for a first stage, payload is 'the rest of the stack'
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<Agathorn>
hmm
<Agathorn>
I see where you are coming from
<leudaimon>
NathanKell|WORK, not at home right now, don't have the tree.cfg at hand
<Agathorn>
at the same time even trying to add an input for avionics mass kind of bothered me
<CobaltWolf>
@Agathorn so this won't work at all like KSP where you drag and drop everything onto the rocket? So things like... say if I wanted to include batteries and an antenna on my stage. That would all just be wrapped up under guidance?
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon: me neither, was why I asked. Ah well
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: much less sandbox constrruction than KSP yes.. You will be able to design more than build
<Agathorn>
I do have plans for a payload designer though
<Agathorn>
so you can have some input into your satellite design
<NathanKell|WORK>
gotta go guys, realize I'm spending too much here :]
<NathanKell|WORK>
too much time*
<xShadowx>
yer at work, bad NK :P shoo
<Agathorn>
and I *want* to include some ability to custom dexzsign or tweak engines but nto sure if I can handle that math rabbit hole or not
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<Agathorn>
but again more about designing not so much building if that makes sense
<leudaimon>
Agathorn, maybe if you build the stage designer so that it builds the rocket "top-bottom", you wouldn't have this issue with the delta-v calculated only for the first stage. Once you get to the first stage, the info on the other stages would be available
<Agathorn>
leudaimon: well its actually two parts
<Agathorn>
There is a second screen where you assemble the rocket from stages
<leudaimon>
hm, I see
<Agathorn>
but you have to design, build, and R&D a stage before it can be used in an ovberall vehicle
<Agathorn>
this encourages reuse of stages as well - and planning ahead
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: I feel that. Similar to how all the alt-history writers I know design their rockets based on performance in Silverbird. I'm much more of a visually/lego minded person.
* xShadowx
likes lego
<leudaimon>
yeah, but you could have to design the stage with an overall vehicle in mind
<CobaltWolf>
Just noticed that you had an option for what type of bulkhead - awesome! Is there a disadvantage to having common bulkhead?
<leudaimon>
say, a desired payload and other stages
<CobaltWolf>
more asking since I don't know if there is one, I've never come across any comments on it
<Agathorn>
leudaimon: certainly but my point was just that they are separate thus why NK suggested adding a slider to simuklate a mass for display purposes
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: I asked about that as well.. I said once you unlock common bulkhead wouldn't you just use it all the time? :) NK said it should cost a lot more, be less reliable, and there are of course theremal issues with such a design
<leudaimon>
yeah, that is simple and solves the issue.
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: I've always wondered why things like the Atlas V didn't use one. Or Titan - that didn't even have propellants at different temperatures!
<Rokker>
Pap: anyways, this japanese launch is weird
<Agathorn>
I imagine manufacturing a common bulkhead style tank is a lot harder
<Rokker>
the constellation its for i mean
<Starwaster>
agathorn, yes it is
<Starwaster>
it requires careful manufacturing of two parts that have to be fitted together within very tight tolerances
<CobaltWolf>
I wonder what the math is on that then. I imagine at some point, the cost of manufacturing a common bulkhead becomes more than having the two separate ones and just stretching the tank slightly to compensate for the weight.
<Agathorn>
which becomes even harder at the sizes involved
<Starwaster>
including the insulation between them if either are cryogenic
<Starwaster>
the mass is more of a concern than the cost
<Agathorn>
so says the guy without the checkbook :)
<CobaltWolf>
@Starwaster err, yeah. But if the same performance can be achieved cheaper with just a stage stretch to compensate for the added weight of the interstage+bulkhead...
<CobaltWolf>
that's what I meant
<Starwaster>
if having the common bulkhead means being able to have more payload and you need every extra kg then you go with the common bulkhead
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: a split design is most likely always goign to mass more
<Starwaster>
cobaltwolf: will the stretched tank fit your VAB? what if it doesnt?
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid>
soundnfury: Pap left a message for you in #RO [31.05.2017 14:58:55]: "I don't know if you have noticed, but for some reason, you have to click the icon multiple times before the window will open"
<Starwaster>
you're also adding mass with that stretched tank too
<CobaltWolf>
I always wanted to see it for Saturn MLV first stage though, that'd save some height. The VAB height limitation always was a fun playground for my daydreams.
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<Starwaster>
oh, before I get drawn too deeply into this: I cant have my browser open right now; can someone tell me the combined mass of the CSM + LM?
<CobaltWolf>
uhh
<Agathorn>
4
<gazpachian>
4 masses
<Starwaster>
agathorn that's all?
<Agathorn>
no i'm not being serious
<Agathorn>
though I could probably make up a unit of measure so that it is 4
<Starwaster>
ffs people, a space program is depending on your answers
<gazpachian>
csm: 28 800 kg
<Agathorn>
then that space program is already doomed and it just doesn't know it yet :)
<gazpachian>
lunar module: 15 200 kg
<CobaltWolf>
I see around ~45000 kg
<CobaltWolf>
total
<gazpachian>
yeah
<CobaltWolf>
since they all varied
<Starwaster>
well there's my problem then.... trying to send too much mass to the moon on something with lesser performance than an SIVB
<Agathorn>
or 4 agmasses given than an agmass is 11,250kg
<Starwaster>
yeah uh I don't think there's much support for the agmass unit :P
<Agathorn>
should be
<gazpachian>
yeah, extended (J class) had a 16 400kg LM
<gazpachian>
(according to wiki, I can never recall these numbers on my own)
<Starwaster>
hmmm new HP + RF code seems to be doing better in analytic time. Not sure about tanks without HP
<gazpachian>
agathorn, if stellar trail doesn't use AGMASS as a unit I don't know what to think anymore
<Agathorn>
oh its all agmasses internally in the code
<Agathorn>
only sensical way to do it reallyt
<gazpachian>
just to add to the unit conversion head-ache
<gazpachian>
a bit metric, a bit imperial, mostly AGMASS
<Agathorn>
what could go wrong
<Starwaster>
You have found 120 kg of hydrazine!
<gazpachian>
>touch hydrazine
<soundnfury>
Pap: yeah I had noticed; I don't know why it happens (probably I mucked up the UI code when stealing it from RemoteTech).
<Pap>
ok good soundnfury, I just wanted to be a productive beta tester since I am going to lose the race!
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<Starwaster>
You have contracted decompression!
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<soundnfury>
Pap: heh. You're being productive just by being involved :)
<soundnfury>
given that I reduce the non-First payouts of the milestone contracts, it's worth knowing that a playthrough where you don't win any Firsts is still playable
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<leudaimon>
Wrecker, did you get the tree.cfg from someone?
<soundnfury>
yikes, NathanKell is researching tech faster than I did. (In particular, he accepted the orbit contract waaay earlier than I did.) Unless he gets Agathorned really hard, he's gonna beat my time
<leudaimon>
The ton of points he put into research scared me
<CobaltWolf>
@soundnfury that sounds fun! I should run one on my Discord
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: yeah, I ended up with almost that many in research but some of them not until like June.
<soundnfury>
CobaltWolf: be aware that it's still in beta if not alpha test. We haven't broken it yet, but we might ;)
<xShadowx>
soundnfury: you expected less from him?:P
<soundnfury>
xShadowx: I think I just played it safe far too much. I haven't even dared fly anything manned yet.
<xShadowx>
no guts no glory
<soundnfury>
ah well, a little way down the line all these reckless cowboys are gonna blow up their space programs, then I'll win ;)
<xShadowx>
lol ;3
<leudaimon>
I was afraid to launch the x-1 "capsule" as soon as I got it, waited for further engine tests, otherwise I might have beaten him and rspakyc for manned kerman
<leudaimon>
karman*
<soundnfury>
kármán* :P
<leudaimon>
:P
* xShadowx
beats soundnfury with a '
<CobaltWolf>
are you playing with KCT
<soundnfury>
yup
<soundnfury>
kinda pointless otherwise ;)
<CobaltWolf>
@soundnfury can you pop on my Discord to answer any questions people might have? :D
<soundnfury>
CobaltWolf: I guess so
<soundnfury>
though be aware that I won't be awake for very much longer ;)
<CobaltWolf>
naw we'll just incessently tag you if need be
<leudaimon>
my hope is to get the advantage for the moon flyby and impact, given I have the tracking station and command room (never remember its name) queued up
<CobaltWolf>
mission control?
<leudaimon>
that one
<Wrecker>
anyone have that RO/RP0 dependency spreadsheet?
<leudaimon>
Wrecker, I can't find it right now, but given everything is released, you would be fine with the dependencies reported in tho forum OPs
<acharles>
Is there a guide for how to setup 1.2.2 in a way to participate in the RIS stuff?
<soundnfury>
acharles: it's too late to join now I think
<soundnfury>
(it would be possible to make joining late work, but it doesn't yet)
<soundnfury>
however, if the queue of people wanting to try it gets long enough, you can start another RIS server :)
<stratochief|away>
!tell Agathorn reading backchat; ISP scales linearly with thrust, thrust ~ ISP * fuel flow , since fuel flow is constant, a 5% increase of ISP from SL to vac means 5% more thrust
<Qboid>
stratochief|away: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<acharles>
I find it ironic that 1.3 releases just before RO releases for 1.2 and I was waiting on 1.2 versions of the mods cause I didn’t want to spend hours fiddling with finding the right combination of stuff that works. And now the process effectively resets :P
<stratochief|away>
acharles: fuck reset; I'm not touching 1.3
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<Agathorn>
stratochief: in general no need to !tell me, as it gets highlighted for me anyway :)
<Qboid>
Agathorn: stratochief|away left a message for you in #RO [31.05.2017 23:43:49]: "reading backchat; ISP scales linearly with thrust, thrust ~ ISP * fuel flow , since fuel flow is constant, a 5% increase of ISP from SL to vac means 5% more thrust"
<acharles>
stratochief: Is there a process for getting RP0 working that takes 5-10 minutes rather than multiple hours?
<stratochief>
acharles: working from where? step 1, install RSS and RO (plus prereqs) through CKAN. what you don't get there, install by hand. maybe 15 minutes time there?
<acharles>
I’ve never had CKAN work with previous versions of KSP correctly with arbitrary mods
<stratochief>
acharles: well, without CKAN, anything will take you some time...
<stratochief>
CKAN treats me alright, if I treat it right. install a few mods at a time. install the Requirements, not all the suggested stuff until later
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<stratochief>
er'body tries to install 200 mods at once, then blames CKAN. except xShadowx, he installs 200 mods and thrives somehow
<Rokker>
stratochief: RAWKET
* xShadowx
doesnt install through ckan
<stratochief>
Rokker: Japan can to space, WHEN?
<Rokker>
stratochief: SOON
<stratochief>
looks like a live shot of a hill getting water sprinkle'd
<acharles>
I’m a software engineer. I tend to treat software nicely. CKAN has very weird failure modes that I seem to trigger for things that really shouldn’t be failures. There are times where just starting it would result in it failing, because it updated to a new list of mods that interacts poorly with the mods I have installed.
<Agathorn>
problem with using CKAN in this case is mods will be updated to 1.3, but forget to update the metadata so CKAN will think the 1.3 mod works on 1.2.2 and install it
<xShadowx>
acharles: dont auto update mods
<Agathorn>
thus causing problems
<acharles>
But everything is just volunteer, so I’m not complaining. It works great, all things considered.
<stratochief>
Agathorn: eh, I installed RO from CKAN a day or two ago, no trouble. IIRC, KIS had an issue like that, but KIS isn't a requirement for RO
<Agathorn>
but if you just open the forum thread, and open each link to each required mod and download the zip.. seriouysly I put together a whole 1.2 install in less than 30 minutes and that was after not playing the game for like a year
<xShadowx>
when you install a mod, test it, then goto next mod, if it fails, revert, skip mod
<Wrecker>
Eh well I still cant get it to work
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<stratochief>
Wrecker: for everyone else, there is waiting for release :)
<Agathorn>
stratochief, et al, updated stage designer to have an "anticipated upstage mass" option for the stage properties: http://i.imgur.com/fN3rJJA.jpg
<Wrecker>
Yeah ik Im just trying to get old versions to work, I haven't played KSP in ages because something broke a while back
<stratochief>
Agathorn: nice! so many figs; are you sure the TWR is exactly 1.1.63545 :P
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<Agathorn>
aren't you the one waving me off rabbit holes?
<stratochief>
well, you can list rabbit holes, to be chased down in the future :P
<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
Its the default string formatting at the moment
<Agathorn>
I just need to look up how to control it which I haven't done yet