<stratochief|remote>
damn, my Mars Direct ascender has 6 drop stages, each with 2x 66kN methane burning engines. so, each drop stage is basically a methalox centaur. christ this thing is big
<Pap>
stratochief|remote, how many assembly launches for Orbital construction?
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<stratochief>
for what? to put together this beast?
<Pap>
yes
<stratochief>
would you believe... one? it is 35.6T when it drops the aeroshield and EDL (entry, descent, landing) system, has 1km/s in the tanks for landing. then, it produces a huge amount of methalox fuel using ISRU, and then is used by a crew (arrived by a seperate vehicle) to ascend to mars orbit AND put itself on an Earth return trajectory?
<stratochief>
I can probably cram it all into a 45-50T total package, so it can be thrown at Mars in a single Saturn V launch (which is my mission design limitation, although I could upgrade my Saturn V a little bit)
<Pap>
Nice, so a similar design to like the Martian style of sending an ascent vehicle to create fuel in advance
<Pap>
That is probably how I would go about it as well
<stratochief>
yep! the Martian sort-of uses a Mars Semi-Direct concept, where their MAV only takes the crew from the surface to Mars orbit, and only has to keep them alive for maybe a week
<stratochief>
this beast would have to produce enough fuel on the surface to achieve orbit, and send them home, so another 2-3 km/s of dV. also, it has to feed and house them for the coast home, and also have a heatshielded capsule capable of surviving Earth re-entry
<stratochief>
it lands at something like 30-35T, and once all the fuel has been produced it is 150-200T. huge savings, when you consider what it would take to get an ascent and return vehicle that large in that state w/o ISRU
<Pap>
That is definitely the way to go
<stratochief>
what I don't like about this design is that it can only carry 3 people, and I'd like 4 or 5. so, I might re-design around Mars Semi-Direct. a third Saturn V would send a return vehicle to Mars orbit, so the total mission is divided over 3 launches, not 2. that also requires one vehicle to launch from the Mars surface w/crew, rendesvous and dock with the return vehicle
<stratochief>
Mars Direct is such a bonkers seeming plan, because it lets you get away with zero orbital construction, no waiting in orbit, and no docking or rendezvous. truly a miracle for a human Mars mission
<Pap>
How far out in RL is the ability to have the ISRU you are using?
<soundnfury>
Pap: you want that in actual years, or Elon Time years?
<stratochief>
well, in my RP-0 alt timeline, I'll be doing it in the early 80s. the tech is not difficult at all, just undeveloped/undemo's on Mars in RL
<Pap>
lol
<Pap>
Elon years we'll have it in 2018
<Pap>
I just heard that SLS slipped and will definitely not fly in 2018 :(
<taniwha>
that's only next year
<stratochief>
soundnfury: naw, I'm going the full Zubrin. I'm bringing my own LH2 from Earth to Mars, which is probably the hardest element of the whole thing, but easier than drilling tonnes of water with robots
<taniwha>
you sure he's /that/ ambitious?
<soundnfury>
Pap: we won't even have Red Dragon in 2018, that slipped to 2020 already :(
<Pap>
taniwha, he has said that by 2025 he wants 100 people per flight going there
<stratochief>
taniwha: well, Red Dragon could have, in theory, demonstrated ISRU in 2019 or 202 or whenever it wouldn't landed
<taniwha>
Pap: send 100 people on the first flight. done :)
<Pap>
lol
<Pap>
ITS will never get built
<stratochief>
Pap: the ISRU I'm using is simple as sin, it just requires smaller scale instruments to be sent to Mars to test and demo the capability. we could have developed these experiments instead of doing Viking or other Mars science landers
<Pap>
that makes sense stratochief
<Pap>
Is it true that when the images from Mariner came back and it showed Mars as a dead planet, pretty much all strides toward going there basically stopped?
<stratochief>
MOXIE on the 2020 rover will be the first demo of ISRU on Mars, and it is crazy simple, just solid oxide electrolysis. I'm sending that experiment in my RP-0 shortly, in 1970 (after 1 or 2 moon landings in my RP-0 series)
<stratochief>
Pap: that is one potential narrative, but really people were and are still pumped for Mars. there simply wasn't money to do anything after Apollo, and what money they did still have was squandered on Shuttle
<stratochief>
but I do respect the huge gains we got with the unmanned science probes through the 70s, 80s, to now
<Pap>
ok stratochief that is more what I thought about the path
<Pap>
stratochief, when will you have time to test out some contracts?
<stratochief>
I would just rather we spend 2 billion every few years developing hardware for new human missions, rather than heavy science rovers like Curiosity. both routes give results, I just want to see people pushing new frontiers rather than rovers pushing them at 1-3 km/h
<stratochief>
Pap: are they up as a PR? or, at least a description of the changes somewhere?
<stratochief>
maybe tomorrow, possibly here or there throughout the next few weeks. depends on life, work, and what other PRs come into the RO and RP-0 bins
<Pap>
not yet stratochief , just getting the first 66 up
<Pap>
I will work on the PR tomorrow / Monday
<Pap>
I will be doing some testing as well
<stratochief>
well, one hopes that people test their own PRs :P
<Starwaster>
stratochief so have you had a chance to see how Heat Pumps behave with new RF?
<stratochief>
Starwaster: not yet, no
* stratochief
adds that to the 'to do' list
<stratochief>
Starwaster: IIRC, you said that it appears to be a huge improvement (fuel no longer taking same temp as the container, no heat capacity for fuel?) and you also fixed the "need 2 heatpumps, no matter what" craziness due to a wonky stock multiplier?
<stratochief>
that is the paper I used to configure my MarsISRU parts for RealISRU
<Pap>
Thansk, I will look at that stratochief
<stratochief>
I need to find something similar that discusses using water drilled on Mars, because I could only make vague guesses for the energy requirements, mass of a mobile drilling/pumping platform, etc.
<Starwaster>
well that's true, no need to add two sets of heat pumps because of stock cutting heat flux in half
<Starwaster>
but, just so we're clear, the thing about removing heat capacity from cryo fuels is so that their fuel TANKS will get hotter than they would have otherwise :P
<Starwaster>
and, btw, orbiting over Io right now and thinking of Sean Connery
<stratochief>
Io, Io, it's off to space you go
<Starwaster>
But.... going to attempt no landings on Europa
<stratochief>
of course. all other worlds are yours, but not that one. who doesn't know that
<stratochief>
alright, sleep time. g'nite!
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<acc>
mornin
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<acc>
centaur on a H1 booster. that should go smooth :>
<acc>
E1, not H1
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] PhineasFreak opened pull request #1631: STAR-37E global engine config updates & fixes (master...RO-STAR-37E-Isp-Fix) https://git.io/v9wwL
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<Sigma88>
0/
<soundnfury>
ø
<Theysen>
ello
<acc>
hullu
<Theysen>
how you all doing my fellow kerbonauts :^)
<Pap>
o/ all
<Pap>
acc, E-1 core is my new launch vehicle as well
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<Theysen>
E1 is bae
<Theysen>
i like its oomph
<acc>
yeah :)
<acc>
but I found out the procedural avionics need to be adjusted. the pricing is way over the top
<acc>
I was wondering why my vehicles cost so much
<acc>
type probeCore for a 2t sat costs around 40k
<acc>
that can't be right
<Theysen>
post in the rp-0 issue thread
<Theysen>
rsparkyc opened one for discussion irc
<acc>
I prefer to start a issue on github :D
<acc>
or don't you mean on the forums?
<Theysen>
"issue" is github
<Theysen>
or just open a new one, hthe others deal with shape and such
<acc>
ah, ok
<acc>
yeah, I've seen that one
<Theysen>
i broke my install this morning somehow
<Theysen>
happy reinstalling from scratch
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<stratochief>
o/ Acc, Theysen
<stratochief>
acc: you can change avionics type; for something 2T you probably want to use the Upper stage version. I don't recall if avionics costs change depending on tech level. also, what utilization percent did you have it at?
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<stratochief>
I generally shoot for around 50%, that gives a decent balance of control, cost, mass
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<acc>
oh, ok. havn't played with utilization yet. I'll try out
<acc>
but I thought for a sat core I want type probeCore
<acc>
type upper stage is like 15t+
<stratochief>
yeah, perhaps the cost for that one needs adjusting, not sure. I've never made a probe core with control mass that high. I was testing it in early career
<acc>
I'l lcheck later. just closed the game
<stratochief>
yep, fair, just wanted to give you ideas to try :)
<acc>
sure, thanks :)
<stratochief>
acc: also, rsparkyc shared his costing curves for procedural avionics in RP0#631
<Pap>
acc, regular Skylab used only Apollos to dock in LEO
<acc>
using them in earth orbit would be weird. at least in LEO
<CobaltWolf>
why?
<acc>
a bit OP and expensive, I would think
<CobaltWolf>
acc: the real one used Apollos
<CobaltWolf>
Not really
<acc>
oh, ok
<CobaltWolf>
they just didn't fill the tanks and stuff
<acc>
ok, makes sense, light versions...
<CobaltWolf>
most people assumed that if we went with developing space stations and not risking with the shuttle, we'd have made LEO optimized versions. Same reentry capsule etc but with thinner heatshield, smaller service module using the LEM Ascent engine etc
<Theysen>
which LV for leo? Still Sat 5 ?
<schnobs>
yup. That was part of why Apollo was retired. As a mere crew vehicle just to get there and back again, it was way overengineered.
<CobaltWolf>
Theysen: Saturn 1B or probably something to replace it for cheaper
<schnobs>
"Saturn 1 C"
<Theysen>
aight
<schnobs>
Swap the H1's for a single F1.
<CobaltWolf>
schnobs: you mean from Eyes?
<schnobs>
I mean from obvious.
<CobaltWolf>
the single F1 design was never, ever proposed IRL
<schnobs>
(sorry, but Eyes didn't get its ideas out of thin air)
<CobaltWolf>
no they literally did on that front
<CobaltWolf>
that's a lot of trust to put in a single F1
<schnobs>
Nope, and what for? But assume that you find yourself needing a lot more Saturn1, the numbers work out just fine.
<schnobs>
I think that trust would have been well-deserved, especially by then.
<Theysen>
especially 1 engine is easier to handle than 8 though it worked out in the end
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<soundnfury>
fun fact: an F-1 has about the same thrust as a Falcon 9 first stage.
<Theysen>
let's put a F1 on that just for the giggles
<Pap>
soundnfury, what kind of ISP comparison is there?
<soundnfury>
pretty sure the Merlin gets a better Isp, and better twr too
<Pap>
I would hope so, we are talking 50 years of refinements and improvements
<soundnfury>
M1D: 282/311s, 180twr
<soundnfury>
F1: 263/304s, 94.1twr
<soundnfury>
(sources: wiki)
<stratochief>
Theysen: what is with that post from Reddit? damn fool never shared what mods they are using, or checked which variant of the J-2 they have
<Theysen>
yep
<stratochief>
hell, they say "all engines in FASA", then proceed to show one...
<Theysen>
I won't bother typing there
<riocrokite>
I don't really believe in official M1D numbers
<Pap>
soundnfury, any ideas on the proposed F-1B and how much it improved everything?
<stratochief>
Theysen: but you must post, you are the last bulwark between stratochief and madness!
<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: that is a huge Skylab space station
<Theysen>
stratochief, wildBlueWanderer has me covered
<stratochief>
Theysen: fair enough. if someone already tried to set them straight, that seems fine
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief: well I have plentry of pictures where they used the full interstage space atop the S-II
<CobaltWolf>
then it has the ETS European Research Module on the axial port
<CobaltWolf>
plus the SEM and airlock on the radial port
<stratochief>
Pap: the F-1B config is already with the F-1 config
<schnobs>
huge skylab where?
<Theysen>
stratochief, we need a copy paste message to tell people their information providing sucls
<Pap>
stratochief, I was asking more in terms of the numbers he was posting earlier, not for RO reasons
<stratochief>
Theysen: need a bot, the "YouSuckAtRSS bot" that posts that on every post in the RSS sub. then, someone could manually remove the reminder to provide better info for the 5% of cases where someone actually posts good info
<TM1978m>
cool space station kind of remindes me of sky lab
<stratochief>
schnobs: the discord pic that CobaltWolf posted 20-30 min ago
<Theysen>
stratochief, haha. better not or we get more hate
<schnobs>
stratochief: I signed on a few minutes too late to see it the first time 'round. CobaltWolf, thanks for repost.
<stratochief>
schnobs: oh, indeed. I missed that, sorry
<schnobs>
Now that I look more closely, I wonder what the LM is doing there.
<stratochief>
Pap: nice :) Is that the first tundra orbit offered? Which nations/launch sites were used for launching tundra orbits in reality?
<Pap>
stratochief, there have only ever been 3 satellites sent into Tundra orbits, they were all Sirius Satellites
<stratochief>
Sirius? like, the satellite radio people? strange.
<Pap>
Yes, it must be only offered to the northern hemisphere?
<stratochief>
So, a tundra orbit is somewhat similar to a molniya one, then? long dwell over the northern hemi?
<stratochief>
what is the difference between the two that leads you to want to define them seperately?
<Pap>
Yep, same idea, Tundra is a 24 hour orbit
<Pap>
Well, one sidreal day
<Pap>
Molniya is a half-sidreal day orbit
<stratochief>
ahh, gotcha. so, big difference in that factor, very similar in others
<Pap>
Yese, 63.4 is the magical inclination in RL (and Principia) that accounts for the bulge at the equator and the orbital pertubations, in stock KSP, doesn't mean much
<stratochief>
what error margins will that contract accept? it sucks that it can't show that in the contract window
<Pap>
I am testing it now and I am going to change the contract actually
<stratochief>
can you set the margins of accepted error, parametre by parametre?
<Pap>
correct
<Pap>
And it will show
<Pap>
Like the polar contract right now says that you need to be in an inclination between 85 and 95 degrees, super simpmle
<Pap>
*simple
<stratochief>
IMO, contracts should get gradually more specific/tight as you've completed previous ones that are similar
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<Pap>
Yep, that is how I am going to create them, the early ones will have parameters showing the margins of errors, the later ones will use the built in KSP orbit that draws on the map, those make you get to a pretty specific area
<stratochief>
for the Tundra, could it demand a certain level of excentricity, rather than specifying the Ap and Pe? or would that not be sufficient to make sure the dwell area is over the northern hemi?
<stratochief>
and of course, orbital period is the critical factor that wouldn't have much of a margin, even for early contracts, because without that, it would wander substantially over later orbits
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<Pap>
stratochief, for Tundra, I will have to figure out how to actually do it a different way. I need to set the Argument of Perigee in order to put the AP over the north
<Pap>
nevermind, figured it out, sweet
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<gazpachian>
Starwaster: I've not had gimbal issues per se, but I've had plenty of issues with the thrust transform ending up all over the place, along with the engine bell. Enough that I shy away from using them at all nowadays. :(
<Starwaster>
do you also use Principia?
<gazpachian>
That I do not! But I am curious why you suspect they may be related!
<stratochief>
Starwaster: IIRC, the gimbal for the procSRB works alright for me. the gimbal range is small (but realistic-ish), which is my only real issue with it
<stratochief>
Starwaster: and rsparkyc has also found there to be a crazy issue where the nozzle for the proc SRB isn't where it is supposed to be when he has Principia & RSS installed
<stratochief>
o/ JPLRepo
<Starwaster>
gazpachian ^ that's why. Because someone else reported having problems with both installed. I suspect that it's just coincidence but asking you about it when you report also having nozzle placement issues helps confirm or refute
<Starwaster>
what I meant about the gimbal was: is it supposed to only pitch? And not yaw?
<stratochief>
Starwaster: I think it should do both, but it could very well be borked and doing only one?
<gazpachian>
starwaster: I've had the issue both with and without RSS/RO, albeit in other rescale systems (so at the very least Kopernicus was involved)
<soundnfury>
completely unrelated: there's an issue with the FASA Atlas LV-3C tank - the sum of the propellant volumes is about 12kl more than the available tank volume
<soundnfury>
looks like it was introduced by commit 2fff5f9735ee
<soundnfury>
stratochief: should I file an Issue, or is your memory good enough to ensure it gets dealt with?
<stratochief>
soundnfury: I'm not touching it; feel free to PR a fix
<CobaltWolf>
I love this style, from an artist's POV. It's really cool as an artist to see the real thing, analyze it, and iconize and stylize it. Emphasizing details and interpreting it. It's akin to space artist's paintings that IRL space programs commision. It's a loving tribute to the real historic thing.
<blowfish>
stratochief: I doubt it's a fuel line. A fuel line wouldn't start from the top of the tank
<soundnfury>
stratochief: I'm too lazy to look up sources for a proper fix. I'll just propose a revert of that commit.
<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: a cynic would worry you'll be replaced by machine learning style transfer :P
<stratochief>
soundnfury: or, make the total volume match the sum?
<CobaltWolf>
compared to the sort of CAD model style that a lot of realistic mods go for. Still awesome, I just say the stockalike/porkalike style is more rewarding to me as an artist and a space history buff
<stratochief>
soundnfury: that is one of the reasons I personally didn't merge that commit, it sat in a bin a looong time
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief: nuh uh soon liberal arts will be the only thing left :P
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<CobaltWolf>
#Humanities4Lyfe
<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: -some- liberal arts; but I've seen some pretty impressive style transfers
<soundnfury>
stratochief: yeah I've no idea whether the total is wrong or whether the summands are bogus :/
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief: yeah I know. We talk about it a lot in class
<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: I mean, that wiill obviously be a useful tool for skilled artists, because you can then spend more time tweaking and refining the transfer, rather than processing product
<stratochief>
blowfish: semi-shiny
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief: it's the same as its always been. Compare it to real life effects studios. As you progress, you go from being an artist to a supervisor. You have control over a higher level of the craft. Intelligent computer art algorithms are just the next photoshop.
<soundnfury>
filed #1632. Not my problem now ;)
<Qboid>
[#1632] title: FASAAtlasLV3C tanks don't add up | The FASA 'Atlas LV-3C Fuel Tank' contains about 12kl more propellants than its tank volume; this was introduced by commit 2fff5f9735ee.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/issues/1632
<stratochief>
soundnfury: lol. well, you did to the absolute minimum amount of work there, so I won't bust your balls too much. I don't expect a fix to be forthcoming though
<stratochief>
I wouldn't mind being an old-timey Calculator, I don't mind doing mindless math. damn electronic computers, stealing our jorbs
<soundnfury>
well since my proposed fix is a revert, writing that in the form of a PR seems unnecessary somehow