<gazpachian>
The best heat bug I've found is that on scene switch or when time warping near Jupiter parts with a heat tolerance below 1000K are almost guaranteed to explode. So FYI don't make a deep space probe using an agena avionics core.
<Starwaster>
stock Kerbals have max temp of 800
<github>
[TestFlight] sundhaug92 opened pull request #168: Markdown-fix (dev...patch-1) https://git.io/vHTBs
<Starwaster>
have you ever had THEM explode near jupiter, gazpachian?
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<gazpachian>
rarely send manned missions to Jupiter in RO, to be fair. :P
<gazpachian>
I'll admit to being that much of a beginner!
<Starwaster>
but! All those worlds are YOURS!
<Starwaster>
(except Europa. Attempt no landings there...)
<gazpachian>
well, I don't have the engine configs to build Discovery One
<gazpachian>
Brb, building a launcher to put my ISS replica in low Jovian orbit
<Starwaster>
not in one piece, surely?
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<gazpachian>
SSTLJO or bust?
<AppliedRaptor>
With what, an 80 m Orion?
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<gazpachian>
I mean, by the time you've assembled something large enough to push the ISS all the way out there and circularize I don't think the CoM offset of the ISS will matter much
<Starwaster>
just remember, Discovery used ammonia as its propellant
<gazpachian>
well, AppliedRaptor, if my concern was lack of RO configs I'd best stick with chemical rockets, maybe NERVAs
<Starwaster>
(that's why it didn't all boiloff by the events of 2010)
<gazpachian>
well, didn't it also use an open cycle gas core nuclear engine?
<UmbralRaptor>
Didn't Discovery have a semi-magic gas core NTR, though?
<UmbralRaptor>
ninja'd
<Starwaster>
dont remember
<gazpachian>
life would be so much simpler with a few gas core NTRs around
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<Agathorn>
when you have 3 or more propellants in the mixcture, do you still have fuel and oxidizer like normal, just one of them is doubled up?
<Agathorn>
or is there a 3rd thingy there other than fuel and oxidizer?
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: some tripropellants are essentially fuel, oxer and "working fluid"
<gazpachian>
with the working fluid often being hydrogen
<soundnfury>
that's what the H is in Li-F-H; effectively the Li and F burn to LiF and act like the reactor in a NTR
<Agathorn>
what is the point of that "working fluid"?
<soundnfury>
Lower MW than the products of the heat-generating reaction
<gazpachian>
consider hydrolox for a simpler example
<soundnfury>
triprops are like NTRs in that they're entropy-limited, so you want low MW for Isp
<Starwaster>
ok, I am firmly and finally convinced that calling Modules.Contains() on either parts or their prefabs is bad and should never EVER be done. I'm also pretty convinced it should be safe to do even if it isnt
<gazpachian>
if you reacted hydrogen and oxygen together stoiciometrically you'd end up with 100% water, but water is a nasty heavy molecule you don't want in your exhaust
<Starwaster>
at first I thought maybe part.modules just wasn't initialized yet but it clearly is
<soundnfury>
whereas biprops are enthalpy-limited(?) and you want a good isentropic exponent (I think high is good there?) aka R/Cp
<gazpachian>
so you throw in a lot more hydrogen than the chemist would call for
<soundnfury>
and Hâ‚‚ is one of the best for both MW _and_ R/Cp, but its density sucks syphilitic camels through a straw
<gazpachian>
you should really read 'Ignition!', Agathorn. That book is quite a light read considering it manages to dump the formulas to calculate all of the above in just one chapter.
<soundnfury>
♥ that book
<Agathorn>
yeah I do need to put it on my research list
<Agathorn>
ideally I want to let players tweak fuels and what not but I need to be able to calculate everything
<gazpachian>
it's also very funny.
<Agathorn>
Ithink for simplicity and forward progress though for now I will just stick with storing a fuel and an oxidizer and looking up Isp from known tables
<Agathorn>
don't want to get too bogged down which I am so inclined to do
<Starwaster>
especially the part about the running shoes
<blowfish>
Starwaster: what's the problem with PartModuleList.Contains ?
<gazpachian>
yeah, that will certainly do for now! Working prototype first, perfection later! :)
<Starwaster>
it's throwing nullrefs, especially if called in the editor or when done after the main menu has loaded
<Starwaster>
blowfish
<blowfish>
I see
<Starwaster>
use FindModulesImplementing instead
<Starwaster>
or FindModuleImplementing, depending.
<blowfish>
err, is this Contains(string) or Contains<T>() ?
<Starwaster>
(usually the latter)
<soundnfury>
gazpachian: that's all very well, but it's all too easy for one component to stay as the clumsy hacked-up prototype for years
<blowfish>
what is it null-refing on?
<Starwaster>
Contains(String) for sure. not sure about the other
<Starwaster>
don't know, it's in the stock code so I can't say for sure
<soundnfury>
gazpachian: harris's weather model is _shockingly_ bad, but all my attempts to improve on it have failed and now I'm kinda scared even to try any more
<Starwaster>
probably on the hashcode
<blowfish>
if one of the modules is null then it will nullref. I'm not sure exactly how that would occur though
<gazpachian>
soundnfury: it's the reality of software development though, you'd rather have a flawed product than no product at all
<soundnfury>
gazpachian: (maybe if I shoehorn harris into enough conversations, eventually someone other than me will play it ;)
<blowfish>
the list itself has a field initializer, so it should never be null unless something is messing with it
<gazpachian>
soundnfury: SECOND reality of software development, always self-promote! XD
<gazpachian>
Anyways, hitting the sack, take care you crazy yankees!
<Starwaster>
blowfish: I really doubt that's what's happening. Otherwise it would be impossible to work around
<blowfish>
err, which one?
<Starwaster>
that it's hitting a null module
<soundnfury>
gazpachian: I'm not a crazy yankee!
<soundnfury>
I
<soundnfury>
'm a crazy brit!
<blowfish>
Starwaster: if the list were null, FindModuleImplementing would also fail
<Starwaster>
you mean PartModuleList Modules?
<Starwaster>
exactly
<Starwaster>
it's not null
<blowfish>
I mean the list backing PartModuleList
<Starwaster>
that's not null either
<blowfish>
do you still have the stack trace? I feel like I'm not understanding what you're seeing fully
<rsparkyc>
half jumping into this conversation. What's breaking?
<rsparkyc>
you writing a mod?
<Starwaster>
same thing that's been breaking in multiple mods
<Starwaster>
Procedural Parts had that problem
<Starwaster>
Deadly Reentry even had it but that error was suppressed so it went unnoticed
<Starwaster>
mostly unnoticed
<Starwaster>
but after processing several logs in the past week I've been noticing that some important code in DRE was failing and probably has been failing since 1.2.2
<rsparkyc>
ahh
<Agathorn>
RP-1 is kerosene?
<Starwaster>
rsparkyc blowfish here's an example of what was failing: part.partPrefab.Modules.Contains("ModuleHeatShield")
<rsparkyc>
well, GetHashCode shouldn't throw a NRE
<rsparkyc>
not on a string
<Pap>
IS 3.4 tons to orbit a lot?
<Starwaster>
and no I don't have a full stack trace because I fixed the code
<Starwaster>
no that's not a lot pap
<Pap>
In say 1962?
<Starwaster>
uhm..... no?
<rsparkyc>
but if there are no modules on the part, it will throw a NRE
<rsparkyc>
or if any module doesn't have a ClassID field
<Pap>
Alright then I need to figure something else out
<Agathorn>
stratochief|away: hmm I use Modules.Contains() in TestFlight and never saw any problems unless they are new
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<Pap>
Probably a R-7 based launcher is my only chance
<Agathorn>
lines like "part.Modules.Contains("TestFlightInterop")" are extremely common
<Agathorn>
well Contains is a standard method on List.. so if the list is valid then it should be safe, period
<Agathorn>
Not sure how KSP could be messing that up
<Agathorn>
unless they are overriding Contains?
<blowfish>
rsparkyc: in that case the for loop will fall through and return false
<rsparkyc>
because Modules is not a list
<rsparkyc>
it's a PartModulesList
<rsparkyc>
it implements IEnumerable
<Starwaster>
nope that would fail. (your suggestion about part.Modules.Count)
<Starwaster>
because the count IS > 0
<Starwaster>
pardon the spam: Here's what you asked for. Pulled randomly out of someone's log
<rsparkyc>
spam me
<Starwaster>
NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
<Starwaster>
at PartModuleList.Contains (Int32 classID) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
<Starwaster>
at PartModuleList.Contains (System.String className) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
<Starwaster>
at TweakScale.PrefabDryCostWriter.WriteDryCost () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
<Starwaster>
at TweakScale.PrefabDryCostWriter.Start () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
<Starwaster>
<Starwaster>
(Filename: Line: -1)
<Starwaster>
it happens a LOT
<Starwaster>
in most mods that use that method
<Starwaster>
Modules is NOT null
<Starwaster>
and no modules returned are null
<blowfish>
maybe someone destroys a module and forgot to remove it from the list
<Starwaster>
no
<Agathorn>
actually that NRE looks like it is occuring on a given module not the contains
<Agathorn>
contains is trying to hash something that is invalid
<Agathorn>
at least that is how it looks
<Agathorn>
don't know why that would be though
<rsparkyc>
PartModuleList.Contains (Int32 classID) is not doing hashing
<blowfish>
I'm looking at the decompiled source right now
<rsparkyc>
me too
<rsparkyc>
it's looking at this.modules.Count
<rsparkyc>
then iterating over that
<blowfish>
either the backing list is null (unlikely) or one of the modules is null
<rsparkyc>
yep
<rsparkyc>
if you have a null module loaded, that would do it
<Starwaster>
uhm no... guys no
<rsparkyc>
iterate over part.Modules yourself would be my suggestion
<Agathorn>
if you remove that and do a manual iteration and spit out everything it finds, does that NRE?
<Starwaster>
or use FindModuleImplementing
<Starwaster>
no, iterating over it doesnt NRE anything
<Agathorn>
*shrug* I use it all over the place in TF and it hasn't caused me any issues yet
<rsparkyc>
a lot of time i don't use FindModuleImplementing, because i don't have the source of the mod's module i'm looking for
<Starwaster>
that you know of
<Agathorn>
yes, that I know of.. but if it was failing the TF would be tota;lly broken
<Agathorn>
I mean it couldn't slip through the cracks.. TF wouldn't operate right if that failed
<blowfish>
If one of the modules is null, Contains(string) will NRE, but Contains<T>() will not
<Starwaster>
it's been failing all over the place in DRE and that's not broken
<Starwaster>
stuff just has the wrong temps is all
<blowfish>
but if you're sure none of the modules is null...
<Starwaster>
no nothing is null
<Agathorn>
Starwaster: TF's core relies on the information given bac.. TF simply wouldn't work if that was failikng - the internal TF modules woudln't be talking to each other and the whole house of cards would fall down :D
<Agathorn>
so unless they just broke it in 1.2 or something?
<Agathorn>
Have your tests been with DRE and nothing else but stock?
<rsparkyc>
unless it fails on Start(), but some other method initializes whatever it was trying to do on Start()
<rsparkyc>
then you would get errors in the logs, but stuff would still work
<blowfish>
I'm legitimately curious what's going on here now
<rsparkyc>
oh, here's your problem:
<rsparkyc>
TweakScale.PrefabDryCostWriter.Start
<blowfish>
NREs don't just appear out of thin air
<rsparkyc>
it's TweakScale :)
<rsparkyc>
kidding, of course, i am curious as to what's up
<Agathorn>
always TweakScale's fault!
<Starwaster>
agathorn and I had to fix a similar problem in Procedural Parts
<Starwaster>
brb, I have to afk for a few minutes
<Starwaster>
anyway, do whatever you will in your own code: I'm just saying that FindModuleImplementing is safer
<blowfish>
My reading is that FindModuleImplementing<T> and Contains<T> should be of equal safety, Contains(string) might be more dangerous
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<Pap>
True or false, if KCT says your rocket is going to take 1864 days to build, it is too complex
<rsparkyc>
you just need to spend more upgrade points
<Pap>
I know, I am just at a place in the career where money and upgrade points are tight, was going to try to make a 4-satellite ComNetwork in one launch to make 850k, but not gonna happen
<rsparkyc>
if you have TF installed, i wouldn't risk that :)
<Pap>
Good point, not worth the risk, :(
<Agathorn>
Pap: yeah as rsparkyc says the build time is meanignless without knowing how many build points you have
<Pap>
I'm at 0.7 right now
<Agathorn>
so basically nothing
<Pap>
What I just need to do is fix the satellites, I went to make them look nice and they just need to be functional for this mission
<Agathorn>
0.7BP is really low though man uinless you just started the playthrough
<soundnfury>
yeah, 0.7 is "just about getting unguided probes into orbit" territory
<Pap>
I have just impacted the Moon for the first time, so it is early on
<Pap>
I also always put too many upgrade points into Research
<soundnfury>
yeah you should probably be at about 1.2 at that stage
<Pap>
Damn
<Agathorn>
It took me watching NathanKell play to realize how much I was neglecting KCT upgrades
<rsparkyc>
still, that's like a 3 year build time
<Agathorn>
He really sinks a lot of funds into keeping those high
<soundnfury>
yeah if your rocket is a 3 year build it's way too big
<Pap>
Yeah, I need to fix my damn overly complex satellites to make them smaller, less parts, less pretty, still functional
<Starwaster>
I love the smell of launch pads burning in the morning :(
<soundnfury>
my comsat constellation launched one at a time on six Thor-Deltas
<Agathorn>
pretty > all
<Agathorn>
tempted to replay XCom2 with the new Long War 2 mod
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<rsparkyc>
i just changed WAY too much on my EMRController mod for it to even start, but here-goes
<rsparkyc>
but this SHOULD make it support ModuleEngineConfigs
<Starwaster>
hey agathorn, any advice for someone who SUCKS at XCom 2? But who was pretty good with the old XCom?
<Agathorn>
Starwaster: nah I suck too :)
<Agathorn>
I get so attached to my soldiers and always end up quitting when my kids die
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<Agathorn>
rsparkyc: think you might be missing the time formatter in your spreadsheet
<Agathorn>
I did my install from that spreadsheet and just realzied i'm missing it
<Agathorn>
so either it is missing or I failed - I like to assume the former
<rsparkyc>
i might not have it installed
<Agathorn>
Just realized I was looking at Year 1, Day 282 :)
<Agathorn>
Ok Pap, just unlocked my first node
<rsparkyc>
i think KAC has the right times
<rsparkyc>
even without the time formatter
<Agathorn>
of course it does
<Pap>
Did you go for Science or Enngines?
<Agathorn>
the Time Formatter just makes the KSP displayed dates and times look better :)
<Pap>
Are you using the updated tree?
<Agathorn>
I went with Early Rocketry and already somewhat reegretting it as i'm still stuck with just the one core
<Agathorn>
Think I want to work towards something to satisfy the suborbital contract
<Pap>
Suborbital is a nice chunk of science because of the Bio Sample returns
<Agathorn>
but getting a bio sample down in one piece is tricky
<Agathorn>
especially given I dpon't seem to have any heat shields
<Starwaster>
Agathorn: I think I'm still stuck on like the third map... or maybe the second? I dont even remember :(
<Agathorn>
heh ok well I got farther than that :)
<Agathorn>
haven't played in quite some time though
<Starwaster>
omg I'm almost going to cry tears of joy... for the first time in over a year, I have my tracked mobile lab back
<Agathorn>
hmm I don't seem to have any interstage fairings?
<Agathorn>
and can't figure out how to get SSTUs interstage working - though I sweat I used it in the past
<Pap>
What equation do I use to determine the Delta-v to go from a 500 x 3000 orbit to circularize?
<Pap>
Agathorn: you have to right click on the SSTU tank and toggle Interstage Node
<Agathorn>
Pop yeah I did and nothing changes
<Agathorn>
Pap*
<Pap>
hmmmmm
<soundnfury>
Pap: vis-viva
<Pap>
thanks
<soundnfury>
(the answer is nearly always vis-viva. Except when it's π/2 of course ;)
<Starwaster>
if my land vehicle needs airbrakes... am I going too fast?
<soundnfury>
Starwaster: depends. Is it called "Thrust SSC"?
<Starwaster>
no... just a tracked lab thingy I made with KPB + Kerbal FOundries
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<Starwaster>
christ.... looking at my KSP log... wondering why there's entries about it compiling cryotanks parts... seeing as how I dont have that mod installed
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<Starwaster>
then I realized I was looking at someone else's log from a few days earlier
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<Agathorn>
hmm my headset mic is getting major background noise
<stratochief|away>
Pap: 3.4T is something like Gemini, so a Titan II could do that
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<stratochief|away>
Agathorn|Twitch: RP-1 is highly refined kerosene. a similar mix of hydrocarbons,tighter tolerences on the constituant blend than kerosene or aircraft fuel has
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<acc>
mornin
<Agathorn|Twitch>
morning
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<Agathorn>
84 degrees in my apartment despite being 10pm and only 60 degrees outside :D
<Agathorn>
that's what I get for having the AC off for so long
<Agathorn>
but its way too loud to stream with it on
<blowfish>
sounds like just pumping in air from outside would help in your case
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<Starwaster>
blowfish agathorn: an exhaust fan would be better
<Starwaster>
I have one I can mount in my window like an air conditioner (only much lighter) and it takes the hot air and blows it outside. Cool air will naturally find its way in
<blowfish>
perhaps, I guess what you really want is circulation, i.e. both intake and exhaust
<Starwaster>
come to think of it, it's past time to stick that sucker in the window and turn it on
<Starwaster>
dafuq...? there's a fuzzy caterpillar in my goddamn room
<blowfish>
I guess cool air isn't the only thing naturally finding its way in?
<Starwaster>
the window was closed all day....
<Starwaster>
some of those fuzzy jobs can sting you with their fuzz
<Starwaster>
I guess it's not really stinging, more like porcupine quills
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<xShadowx>
Agathorn: move a few miles south, was nice and cool down here :)
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<riocrokite>
is there a way to predict EC production of fuel cell having fuel/oxidizer isp?
<Theysen>
doesn't it have fixed output?
<Qboid>
Theysen: stratochief|pre-meeting left a message for you in #RO [21.05.2017 22:48:58]: "100 tonne lunar space station? core hub for a von braun ring or what?"
<riocrokite>
guys, can I assume that generally the deeper you strip mine regolith, the harder it becomes?
<riocrokite>
considering 10-20m layer max
<riocrokite>
or is hardness pretty constant
<gazpachian>
Not a geologist, but that seems reasonable
<riocrokite>
thinking mostly about lunar regolith here
<gazpachian>
the falloff should be smoother on lower G bodies, sort of like the scale height of an atmosphere
<riocrokite>
maybe martian one too
<gazpachian>
as in, if you can easily dig 10m down on earth in regolith, maybe 40m is no problem on Mars
<riocrokite>
what about rock chunks concentration the deeper I go, does it increase?
<riocrokite>
"The density of regolith at the Apollo 15 landing site averages approximately 1.35 g/cm3 for the top 30 cm, and it is approximately 1.85g/cm3 at a depth of 60 cm"
<riocrokite>
that's pretty steep increase
<gazpachian>
huh
<gazpachian>
well, on Earth large rocks tend to rise toward the surface over time
<gazpachian>
not sure how pronounced that effect is on the moon without wind and rain though
<CobaltWolf>
I thought they climbed out themself?
<gazpachian>
well, something has to get them moving
<gazpachian>
right?
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<Agathorn>
morning
<rsparkyc>
morning
<CobaltWolf>
morning
<Pap>
Thanks Sigma88 that is excellet information!
<Sigma88>
np
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<Agathorn>
If you are calculating dV of an entire vehicle where each stage has differing values of Isp, how do you reconcile that? Do you calculate dV for each stage independantly and then combine them? Do you work out some form of average Isp or weighted average Isp?
<Agathorn>
and lastly to make it even more complicated what if a single stage has mixed engines and mixed Isp?
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<stratochief>
Agathorn: dV is calculated for each stage seperately, then added
<stratochief>
because at each 'staging' event, the dry mass changes
<Agathorn>
ok that's what I thought, but since things are usually mnore compicated than they seem I wanted to checkl
<Agathorn>
:)
<stratochief>
if a single stage has mixed engines, mixed ISPs, you've got a pain in the ass going on
<Agathorn>
lol
<Pap>
lol
<Agathorn>
well something like a core and strapons running at once would be differing Isp
<stratochief>
I've entered an approximation onto a google sheet, but it was a bitch to type
<Agathorn>
say the space shuttle for example
<Agathorn>
surely the SRBs would have a different Isp from the SSMEs so yeah
<stratochief>
yeah. since solids don't have constant thrust either, you're approximating an average of their thrust, at least the way i do it
<Pap>
well Agathorn technically the SRB's are a different stage
<Agathorn>
I guess a weighted average would get you close and come to think of it I think I did something like that in my kRPC scripts
<stratochief>
reminder: ISP also changes as you go climb through the atmo, differenty for the core and solid boosters
<Agathorn>
are they even though they are firing at the same time?
<stratochief>
the change in ISP is a function of chamber pressure, fuel type, nozzle, etc etc etc.
<Agathorn>
yeah
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<stratochief>
anyway, I'm the kind of person who is happy with approximations for most things, so I average lots of those elements, or ignore/abstract others
<Agathorn>
though unfortunately the charts I am presently using don't give anything but a single Isp value
<stratochief>
the way I average the is to calculate the dV before solid booster sep as one value, which takes account of the remaining fuel in the core stage as 'dry mass', which is calculated by figuring how what fraction of the core tank was burned through before booster sep
<stratochief>
then, second dV is for that core stage's remaining fuel until core burnout
<stratochief>
anyway, pancake time
<Agathorn>
mmm pancakes
<Pap>
Share with the whole chat stratochief
* stratochief
hands Pap et al imaginary IRC pancakes, in a futile gesture of sharing
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<Agathorn>
I need to hit up starbucks for breakfast soon I think
<Agathorn>
you made me hungry but I real;ly don't have anything in the house
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<Agathorn>
Huh. Unity natively supports JSON now
<stratochief>
Agathorn: I feel sad for you, son. the ingredients for pancakes, even from scratch, are very shelf stable
<xShadowx>
json ugly though :P
<Agathorn>
milk and egss?
<stratochief>
Agathorn: fridge stable, in that case :P also, staples of my regular diet
<Agathorn>
lol
<xShadowx>
pancake mix only needs wa wa :)
<Pap>
xShadowx: knows where its at!
<xShadowx>
cereals are shelf stable
<stratochief>
true facts. I've never smack-talked pancake mix. it works well
<Agathorn>
yeah dinner last night was dry cereal lol
<xShadowx>
nut bars good too
<stratochief>
xShadowx: cereals aren't shelf stable in my house. I'll just binge eat that shit, too much like a sugar snack. I'll eat puffed wheat from time to time
<xShadowx>
stratochief: get a better cereal ;p
<Agathorn>
I'll binge eat anything in my apartment
<Pap>
When I was a single man, I used to live on Frozen Pizzas, leftover pizzas, cereal, coffee, and cigarettes
<Agathorn>
I mean I live alone so if its here then I obviously like it
<Agathorn>
Pap last time I got pizza delivered the delivery guy commented on my two towers of pizza boxes :D
<Agathorn>
really need to get those down to the garbage room some year lol
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: what about the stuff your mom brings b/c she thinks its 'good for you' but you dont like it :P
<Pap>
Nice Agathorn!
<Agathorn>
xShadowx: my Mom lives at the opposite corner of the continent
<stratochief>
I cooked fairly well as a single man. lots of home-made vegetable soup. I didn't really learn to make my own bread until I started dating Alana, though.
<Agathorn>
but I know what you mean.. Used to have those issues.. don't anymore
<xShadowx>
wish my mom lived that far away -.-
<stratochief>
xShadowx: follow my lead, move ~half a continent away from your mom. then she can only attempt to visit you occasionally
<xShadowx>
stratochief: arent you in UK? thats a little island not a continent ;p
<Agathorn>
lol
<stratochief>
xShadowx: no, I'm a canadian commonwealth subject, not an OG brit like SirKeplan
<stratochief>
or soundnfury
<Agathorn>
confusing the S's up there
<Pap>
I'm an OG British Rebel Subject, 'Murica!
<CobaltWolf>
really? stratochief I thought you were German for some reason
<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: nein. ich bin nicht berliner
<Pap>
theysen, HypergolicSkunk and acc are all German I believe
<stratochief>
I'm just learning german, because the canadian system ruined french for me
<CobaltWolf>
isn't that, like, not right? It means bagel or something
<stratochief>
iirc, it was a grammar mistake, because he said ein Berliner
<stratochief>
also, FWIW, germans also Capitalize Every Noun, not just Proper Nouns
stratochief is now known as stratochief|pancakesfurmich
<CobaltWolf>
Why Would They Talk Like That? I FeEl LiKe ThAt'S sO mUcH wOrK.
* xShadowx
steals stratochief pancakes
* xShadowx
puts CobaltWolf in a hole with fire for typing like that
<Pap>
yes please xShadowx
<Pap>
Can I block people from IRC?
<xShadowx>
myou can put on ignore
<CobaltWolf>
cLiMbS BaCk oUt oF ThE HoLe oUt oF ShEeR DeFiAnCe
<CobaltWolf>
that one I actually just used convertcase.net
<xShadowx>
why am i not surprised such a site would exist
<Pap>
It hurts my eyes and brain trying to read that, It has to take a lot of mental power to be able to actually type that way
<xShadowx>
thats every odd letter index turned to cap, id have gone with random roll ;p
<gazpachian>
pap, or lack of mental power. Idk.
<Pap>
gazpachian: I just cannot even imagine how I would do that. It pisses me off when I accidentally hold the SHIFT key for too long and get something like THis
<xShadowx>
sometimes i hit caplock wjhen i ment to hit 'a'
<CobaltWolf>
convertcase is actually useful
<CobaltWolf>
I used it a lot at my internship, I'd get copy that had been written in all caps for fliers that needed to be normal case for the website and vice versa. stuff like that
<Agathorn>
Anyone have another good table for reference of Ideal Isp per given propellant mixture?
<Agathorn>
also another question - is there perhaps a somewhat standard list of real work rocket stage diameters used?
<Agathorn>
or was it just all over the place with tons of variations
<Theysen>
1.25 / 2.5 / 3.75 /s
<Theysen>
it's custom with every rocket there is afaict
<Agathorn>
ok so that gets more complicated but I was sort of expecting it
<Agathorn>
wasn't sure if manufactyurers maybe settled into some standards or something
<Agathorn>
standards are good things!
<Agathorn>
but I guess even today rockets are still really bespoke
<Theysen>
you have things like the CBC and CCB these days for ULA but before that, rocket has a different name => rocket has different diameters
<gazpachian>
standards are good things, that's why there are so many of them.
<Agathorn>
:)
<Theysen>
you needing those for your game?
<Agathorn>
yeah
<Theysen>
otherwise the well known rockets throughout the history of NASA and SU / UDSSR are not thaaaaaaaat much to cover. Soyuz never changed, Proton didn't either. the americans were a little more innovative though
<Agathorn>
guess i'll just have to work out algorithms to ensure people dont' mismatch things
<Theysen>
ah gotcha
<Agathorn>
Theysen: historicals are fine but the game will allow the player to do some independant design
<Agathorn>
so mainly things like making sure you don't stick an engine on a tank that doesn't fit :)
<Agathorn>
thats easy enough to cover though..but what if you want to cluster engines?
<Agathorn>
all things i'll have to deal with I guess
<Agathorn>
right now though I am just focusiung on the use of a Vanguard rocket as my test bed
<Agathorn>
Working out the hardware definitions right now, seeing what I need to store and calculate
<riocrokite>
ideally you would need the tank with proper plumbing for that cluster Agathorn
Sigma88 is now known as SigmaTrain
<Agathorn>
riocrokite: most likely the assumption will just be made that if you are building the LV with clustered engines, then you have set the tank up for it :)
<riocrokite>
so same diameter tank = / = same diameter tank when attaching different engines
<riocrokite>
yah, otherwise amount of available tanks grows very fast
<Agathorn>
I want to allow some level of design without going too far into a rabbithole
<Theysen>
yeah getting into engineering and mechanical correctness you could actually get lost there
<Agathorn>
The goal is "somewhere between the pure historical of BARIS and the infinitity of KSP"
<riocrokite>
btw I'm planning tank and engines mod when you would exactly match tank to number of engines Agathorn
<riocrokite>
as well as single / hardened tanks for attachments / heavy versions of rockets etc
<riocrokite>
single tanks without attachments ofc :P
<riocrokite>
but lighter
<Agathorn>
with all this stuff KSP-RO really needs a more complete assembly line system
<Agathorn>
KCT isn't enough
<Agathorn>
so using the Vanguard as my test bed I immediately see that getting to the detail I want is goign to be hard with historical rockets..finding for example dimensions for an engine or a fuel tank are pretty hard
<Agathorn>
sure I can see that the X-405 has a diameter of 1.14m according to wikipedia, but how tall is it for example? ARG
<Agathorn>
I can see the total stage height - but I assume that includes the engine, so I don't know how tall the tank itself is
<Agathorn>
I might have to resort to some educated guess and not stress over it
<riocrokite>
hehe yeah
<riocrokite>
I'm going further with the concept -> external vs internal fuel lines with some explicit differences in visuals, aerodynamics, cost and maximum throughput
<riocrokite>
with external lines you will i.e. see 2 or 4 external oxidizer lines that can feed 2 or 4 engines
<riocrokite>
internal lines allowing for more powerful engines (since they are straight)
<Theysen>
great idea to mod
<riocrokite>
mind you i'm not going procedural so that's like hundreds' tanks to model :P
<Agathorn>
riocrokite: that is one thing I love about SSTU is you can choose from a couple tank types which include things like external plumbing, common/split bulkheads, etc
<Agathorn>
yay for bespoke models!
<Theysen>
sstu ftw once more :D
<riocrokite>
well personally visually and efficiency wise I love SSTU, but it's too easy for my gameplay
<riocrokite>
just change diameter or length of a tank with a click of a mouse
Hohman has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 53.0.2/20170504105526]]
<riocrokite>
normally you develop tank bespoke size / diameter
<Agathorn>
yeah but I find it to be a nice middle ground between proc crap and fixed.. sounds like you are basically making the RO version of SSTU's stock :)
<riocrokite>
and if you want to change that you need to develop new test item and test it before use
<riocrokite>
yah I totally understand that Agathorn
<riocrokite>
it's a game of tradeoffs ;)
<Agathorn>
riocrokite: yep NathanKell and I have talked a lot about that.. but making TestFlight work with proc parts was just very hard
<Agathorn>
so if you are doing something morte bespoke that sounds great and hopefully we can make TF integrate well with it
<riocrokite>
yah
BadRocketsCo has joined #RO
<riocrokite>
well I going for middle ground between stock and RO Agathorn
<riocrokite>
so generic parts, tanks and engines instead of copies of historical ones
<Agathorn>
thats fine
<Agathorn>
remeber RO != Historical
<Agathorn>
the concept of RO is just realistic
<Agathorn>
What are you making sounds very RO to me
<riocrokite>
well personally i'm going for middle ground everywhere, part weight, thrust, twr, stock rescale 3.2-6.4, burn times, isp etc
<riocrokite>
having said that it's always a matter of MM config to convert everything to be inline with RO
<Agathorn>
fair enough
<riocrokite>
so I'm sorta opting for realism but with playability that is manageable playing time
<riocrokite>
it's still drawing board since I have a few problems to resolve in the concept, anyway I need to finish surface mining mod first :P
<Agathorn>
I think I need to eventually look into the legalities of using historical rockets and hardware in a commercial game
<riocrokite>
but some in some aspects it will be more realistic than RO i.e. pogo oscillations and need for a pressurant
<Agathorn>
I might be forced to alter the names of things :(
<HypergolicSkunk>
like in the case of Dream Chaser? :(
<Agathorn>
?
<Agathorn>
someomne get sued?
<Agathorn>
My intent once I have something worth showing is to reach out to various companies and agencies and see what I can be allowed to do, but worst case is I have to give everything fake names
<Agathorn>
I just hope I don't have to fudge performance values as well
<HypergolicSkunk>
there was a mod that added the Dream Chaser model, and the mod maker was officially asked by the Sierra Nevada Corp to remove it, or rename it. He did the latter.
<HypergolicSkunk>
iirc
<Theysen>
yes
<Agathorn>
yeah suckls but thems the realities
<Theysen>
performance - no.
<Theysen>
in theory everone can come up with specifics for a rocket engine
<Theysen>
you got hired by them NathanKell|AWAY ? :)
<NathanKell|AWAY>
yep
<Theysen>
that's good I suppose? :)
<Theysen>
Congratz
<Theysen>
didn't want to ask when it got published :D
<Agathorn>
Guessing that is why you moved?
<Agathorn>
So Valve hired KSP guys but didn't buy KSP right? So the KSP guys hired are working for Valve on unrelated things?
<Agathorn>
in any case yeah congrats on the new gig man :)
<NathanKell|AWAY>
yep moved to Bellevue
<NathanKell|AWAY>
and yes correct
<NathanKell|AWAY>
and thanks!
<Agathorn>
now I better understand the absence.. getting established in a new job is always frantic
<Agathorn>
takes up a lot of your time until you settle in and get comfortable
<NathanKell|AWAY>
yeah
blowfish has joined #RO
<NathanKell|AWAY>
also, just plain absorbing
<blowfish>
Oh nice, FAR has been released!
<Theysen>
bam
<Agathorn>
Is it the About Damned Time version?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
hurrah!
<Agathorn>
think that was the last CKAN'T piece of RO
<NathanKell|AWAY>
RO to follow I hope
<NathanKell|AWAY>
yeah
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|AWAY: btw not sure if you caught my stream last night? It was me trying to get back into KSP-RO and pretty much the opposite of your stream lol
<Agathorn>
I was a complete disaster
<NathanKell|AWAY>
alas no, got home super late
<NathanKell|AWAY>
argh I can't change nick on this phone
<Theysen>
but the spreadsheet for RO has some custom .dlls not on CKAN to make it work correctly iirc
<Agathorn>
Theysen: I don't recall anything except FAR, oh an KJR maybe?
<Agathorn>
that and RP-0
<Theysen>
something about proc and KCT is beta
<Theysen>
procedural fairings
<blowfish>
De Laval also made important contributions to the dairy industry, including the first centrifugal milk-cream separator and early milking machines, the first of which he patented in 1894
<Agathorn>
ahh I skipped Proc Fairings
<Agathorn>
which got me into a lot of trouble oin the stream last night
<Theysen>
I did uninstall the custom one though.
<Theysen>
it worked with the normal one
regex has joined #RO
<Agathorn>
yo regex
<Theysen>
NathanKell|AWAY, out of curiosity and pretty sure you won't answer me, all who left are with valve now?
<xShadowx>
Theysen: lol you talkin about that reddit post claiming valve got all the devs from 'kerbal space station' game?XD
<ferram4>
Oh derp. I didn't update the .version file or the assembly information.
<ferram4>
Oh well, 1.3 should be soon anyway. No big deal.
<Theysen>
xShadowx, yes Nathan confirmed his new employment
<xShadowx>
when he say he joined valve?o.o
<Agathorn>
about 5 mimutes ago
<xShadowx>
derp
<Agathorn>
ok more like 10 but still
<xShadowx>
sneaky didnt even turn off away
<Agathorn>
heh he is on his phone and can't apparently
* xShadowx
's client doesnt hilght away tag :(
<Agathorn>
though I think he is genuinley back away now
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Theysen: Mike, Jim, Brian, Ted, Joe/Jose, Bill, Dan, Chris.
<Agathorn>
or not
<Agathorn>
NathanKell|AWAY: given you are in the states shouldn't you be working? :)
<CobaltWolf>
woot woot Nuke crashed the computer while I was gone
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Mu Romfarer Arsonide Dr. Turkey Ted taniwha Danr Porkjwt
<CobaltWolf>
NathanKell|AWAY: o/
<regex>
\o Agathorn
<Qboid>
regex: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [21.05.2017 01:00:27]: "what's that cfg var you use to screw with terrain shaders? Met a guy today who could use it."
<NathanKell|AWAY>
cobaltwolf this is why Chris is busy ;)
<CobaltWolf>
what?
<regex>
hang on NathanKell|AWAY
<CobaltWolf>
I just got back
<NathanKell|AWAY>
regex thanks can you pm it so I have it not in this log? thanks
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: NK confirmed a bunch of the SKP team got hired by Vavle
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: oh, really?
<CobaltWolf>
wow
<NathanKell|AWAY>
well technically PCGamesN did
<Agathorn>
Nk confirmed the confirmation by PC Gamer
<CobaltWolf>
shit doesn't that mean that I have to start over from scratch?
<xShadowx>
porkjet, arsonide, mu, you, i kinda guessed at, taniwha i slightly suspected but i started to discount him as following b/c he kept showing up to mod ksp, sneaky bastard :P
<Agathorn>
well public in that it happened, not public in who I guess
<CobaltWolf>
I'm just gonna default to 'no' then
<NathanKell|AWAY>
sure go ahead
<CobaltWolf>
Ok so was there anything else that I missed or just the list of names
<Agathorn>
you know, stratochief|pancakesfurmich has been eating pancakes for a very log time
<regex>
Is that why you're in Seattlewa NathanKell|AWAY?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
the only people we didn't want to know were the squad owners and they knew for a while because Jim posted a photo on Facebook back in November. so who cares
<NathanKell|AWAY>
yep!
<regex>
Nice
<Pap>
Oh man, reading the backchat on here is painful
<stratochief|pancakesfurmich>
Agathorn: not sure if you got your answer, but the braenig table has kerosene, which is the same/close 'nuf
<regex>
Don't let them work you too hard
stratochief|pancakesfurmich is now known as stratochie|backchat
<Pap>
I feel like we need a TLDR to update everyone else on the status of NathanKell|AWAY and the KSP modders
<xShadowx>
NathanKell|AWAY: is a 'super rough guess eta' too much?;p i mean after the posts, people kinda going the assumption of 2 years to make a new game
<Pap>
TLDR: NathanKell|AWAY confirmed that he and others that were previously working for Squad are now at Valve, and yes, that is why he moved out west
<Agathorn>
stratochie|backchat: yeah just using that for now
<ferram4>
TL;DR: NathanKell|AWAY got the best video-game dev outcome possible and I am extremely envious.
<NathanKell|AWAY>
regex Valve is good about that :)
<NathanKell|AWAY>
ferram yeah... shock still hasn't worn off :]
<xShadowx>
sarbian didnt follow you guys?o;
<regex>
I'm assuming I'll have to wait here to find out what the next game will be?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
yeah...
<CobaltWolf>
Will it have mod support? :P
<NathanKell|AWAY>
have we (Valve) ever not?
<Agathorn>
does valve even make games anymore? :)
<gazpachian>
mods ruin games, didn't you know CobaltWolf?
<Pap>
Stock 4 Lyfe!
<xShadowx>
im going the assumption they makin it space theme, just b/c i never see NK talk of non space, if no mod support, NK is 20 min from me, i can keel him :P
<regex>
There's no post in General about this?
<CobaltWolf>
gazpachian: I have someone on my discord (the *modder's* discord) that keeps telling me that non-stock parts are cheating T.T
<regex>
jesus christ, I thought I was surrounded by fellow shitposters...
<gazpachian>
cobaltwolf: to what extent are you sure he's not a troll? :O
<CobaltWolf>
I love shitposting but I mostly target it at the forum mods
<xShadowx>
NathanKell|AWAY: am i allowed to ask - vive support?XD
<regex>
I do love calling Vanamonde out for being an asshole all the time
<CobaltWolf>
gazpachian: fairly sure. He makes visual mods and that's it.
<ferram4>
I don't shitpost because my posts are shit. :P
<regex>
haha
<CobaltWolf>
regex: I collect warnings like pokemon badges
<regex>
I had a ton back in the pre-1.0 days
<Agathorn>
screw Vive.. Rift baby :)
<Agathorn>
non stock parts CAN be cheating
<Pap>
I'll continue asking only the important questions... NathanKell|AWAY will it be released on Steam?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Vive Uber alles
<Agathorn>
in fact in many games the first mods made are ones to make it easier or to cheat
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Pap hahahhahaha
<Agathorn>
oh geesh
<Agathorn>
now if my game ends up getting rejected from steam its going to be ackward
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I just code, man :P
<Pap>
Agathorn: if it is a quality game, it won't get rejected
<riocrokite>
NathanKell|AWAY: do all guys you mentioned work in the same place?
<xShadowx>
vive > rift
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: no shit, but the majority of mods aim to have balance, though not necessarily the same as the vanilla game haha. Naw, this guy told me that he feels dirty if he uses modded parts. The amount of guilt he's described over it makes me think he was beaten repeatedly as a child
<Agathorn>
though byy the time i'm done Steam should have moved to their new buy in system
<NathanKell|AWAY>
^
<Agathorn>
which may be good or really bad for me depending on what they end up pricing it at
<CobaltWolf>
?
stratochie|backchat is now known as stratochief
<Starwaster>
So, NathanKell|AWAY, when the hell is L4D3 coming out?????
<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: Steam is getting rid of Greenlight and moving to a system where develoeprs essentially pay a buy in to get on steam
<NathanKell|AWAY>
we do not speak of that number
<Agathorn>
the idea is to weed out all the crappy low effort games on Steam
<stratochief>
to play devil's advocate, NK also talks a decent bit about airplanes, and knows plenty aobut them. so, could be a plane related game
<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: ah ok
<Agathorn>
but depending on how they price that buy in, it could be hard for indies so we'll see
<Pap>
NathanKell|AWAY: I am assuming you mean the number 3 in general? As in HL3 and L4D3...
<Agathorn>
Valve can only count to 2
<NathanKell|AWAY>
quite
<ferram4>
Clearly, it's going to be a FPS Muhmorpagur. That's what you'd hire the KSP team for, surely.
<stratochief>
does the Valve headquarters have a first, second, then fourth floor?
<Agathorn>
lol
<NathanKell|AWAY>
we start at 4 thank goodness
<Agathorn>
would be hillarious if they released Half Life 4
<stratochief>
3 levels of parking garage, because 'Merica?
<regex>
DUDE
<Agathorn>
just skipped 3 alltogether
<regex>
HALFLIFE 3 WHEN?
<Pap>
Hot take, Gordon Freeman has hijacked a spacecraft and made it to a galaxy far, far away. There, he must establish a new space program thus Half Space Life 3 is born
<regex>
INSIDER ACCESS
Agathorn is now known as Agathorn|Away
<ferram4>
Now this is shitposting.
<Starwaster>
regex: You just added another six months to the release date. THANKS ASSHOLE! :P
<regex>
hahaha
<stratochief>
I've never payed Half-Life, FWIW
<ferram4>
O_O
<riocrokite>
GIMME HL3 NAOW
<NathanKell|AWAY>
:D
<ferram4>
HERESY
<riocrokite>
like half life but on the mun
<riocrokite>
with rockets and stuff
<Starwaster>
no seriously, just tell Gaben to stop adding more bugs to L4D2 and I'll be happy
<Pap>
And.......today marks the last day that NathanKell|AWAYever logs on this channel again
<Pap>
lol
<riocrokite>
meh, this chat will be all right after initial euphoria
<NathanKell|AWAY>
hehe
<regex>
I am crossing my fingers so fucking hard for a new space game without LGM.
<regex>
LET IT BE SO
<NathanKell|AWAY>
LGM?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
oh
<ferram4>
little green men
<NathanKell|AWAY>
yeah
<Pap>
<------Still asking the important questions.... CobaltWolf now that Porkjet is known to be working on a game, when he has adapted his style to something new, do you now re-make all of your BDB parts in New Porkjet Style? Porkjet Revamped Continued?
<ferram4>
He'd prefer shapely blue space babes. :P
<xShadowx>
so browsing valve games, i predict the new game will be space based, great first person support, vive support :P
<acc>
hey NathanKell|AWAY. that are great news. grats :)
<Pap>
More akin to the types seen in the Fifth Element and Avatar ferram4?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
thanks!
<Pap>
I'm on board with that
<CobaltWolf>
Pap: Yeah that's exactly the kinda thing I need on my mind right now. Not like I already cried myself to sleep last night or anything.
<Starwaster>
Made a separate save game for RSS so as not to screw up my non-RSS save... accidentally loaded up the old save - and killed everything in LKO
<Starwaster>
should have just backed it up
<stratochief>
Starwaster just Ragnarok'd his save
<gazpachian>
... yeah, not running RSS in a separate install seems insanely dangerous.
<riocrokite>
NathanKell|AWAY: do you guys still play KSP?
<stratochief>
and all of a sudden, your orbit appears within a much larger planet than you remember. GG.
<Theysen>
he streamed saturday night *_*
<xShadowx>
taniwha still mods ksp
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I haven't for months but played again Saturday. the Bellevue library was doing a KSP thing
<riocrokite>
cool
<NathanKell|AWAY>
and that inspired me, after teaching kids, to pay RO
<NathanKell|AWAY>
play
* xShadowx
gains another hint to how close he lives to NK
<xShadowx>
>:)
<stratochief>
KSP-RO, dashing kids hopes that space is easy since... 2014?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I live about a mile east of Valve HQ yeah
<xShadowx>
lolz
<stratochief>
mile? close enough to walk, or bike to work?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
bus
<NathanKell|AWAY>
me lazy
<NathanKell|AWAY>
still end up walking a mile a day
<stratochief>
I was lazy when I started biking too. it is a good & healthy habit/hobby :P
<xShadowx>
NathanKell|AWAY: oh after your stream i had a better idea you shouldve done - crash rocket into your house :)
<NathanKell|AWAY>
heh
<xShadowx>
since it shows city maps, might be able to find it
<xShadowx>
unless they're fake cities :( i never looked
<stratochief>
no reason that a space/rocket game couldn't start with the development of various ranges and accuracies, and payloads of missiles
<stratochief>
Contract: Nuke Seattle. "Wouldn't you prefer a nice game of Chess?"
<regex>
Also, NathanKell|AWAY, word of advice: Never go to Port Angeles. Sequim is pretty cool though, so long as you stay out of Applebee's country.
<NathanKell|AWAY>
I am so new these names don't mean anything alas
<NathanKell|AWAY>
so new here
<regex>
:)
<Theysen>
regex, re vanamonde. he seriously deleted posts in RO thread against a blatant ignorant user I and I believe it was actually you? - had my fun with
<regex>
Theysen: huh? Sorry, having difficulty parsing that sentence. But, man, that guy is fucking salty.
<Theysen>
me and someone other had fun with a RO poster being ignorant and unwilling to comply iirc, insta delete of my posts
<regex>
Oh, gotcha.
<regex>
What a dick
Agathorn|Away is now known as Agathorn
<Agathorn>
stratochief: btw did you see I posted a new dev blog piece?
<stratochief>
Agathorn: yep, I grabbed the link. I'm currently completing my german lesson for the day, because my brain was runny pudding this morning when I usually do it
<NathanKell|AWAY>
back to work, sorry guys
<NathanKell|AWAY>
o/
<Agathorn>
later NathanKell|AWAY
<CobaltWolf>
o/
<Agathorn>
stratochief: ahh well dont mix your languages :)
<stratochief>
adios NK
<regex>
o/
<acc>
NathanKell|AWAY: yeah, builkt us that space sim! heh
<acc>
-k
<regex>
Agathorn, what's the link to the game?
<regex>
I'll fund your ass even if I don't like the game.
<Agathorn>
no game yet, i'm still working on it :) But I have started posting things like dev blogs and the design document on my OMG website.. sec
<Pap>
Interesting development along the lines of TF Agathorn: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/160854-122-beta-upfm-a-scrapyard-based-part-failure-and-reliability-mod-02-21052017/
<regex>
"Outer Marker Games"? Is that a Star Wars reference or am I remembering lines wrong?
<Agathorn>
nah, at least not intentionally
<Agathorn>
its a combination of a play on words to get an acronym OMG, and a nod to the fact that I am an aerospace nut.. outer marker being part of the approach system in landing
<regex>
Nice!
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SigmaTrain is now known as Sigma88
<stratochief>
Agathorn: is there a function that relates subcomponent A and subcomponent B's reliabilities to the derived reliability of C, which contains A and B?
<stratochief>
(read the Stellar Trail blog)
<stratochief>
like, A * B * stageSynthesisSkill, which can be improved with tech & experience of teams?
stratochief is now known as stratochief|afk
<rsparkyc>
anyone have any data on the 200klbf version of the J-2?
<Agathorn>
yes and no..kind of on the fence about how I want it to work. *at the moment* the way it works is that a stage initially has a reliability that is derived from its components. Then integration testing is performed on that stage as a whole, and it sort of gets its own reliability that is now detached from its components.
<rsparkyc>
all i'm seeing online is the normal one
<Agathorn>
changes to the stage would drop that back down and require new integration testing
<Agathorn>
that said it still feels rough to me so that design needs more thought
<Pap>
Need your help please...
<Agathorn>
maybe the base reliability of a stage is a function of its components, and that gives a medium level reliability even if all the components are perfect. And then the stage gets an additional reliability bonus based on stage integration testing
<Agathorn>
that feels reasonable
<Starwaster>
stratochief: Ragnarok and Roll!
<Starwaster>
riocrokite: play? Not as often as I'd like. I 'play' with cfg and coding more than I play the game. RF cryogenic handling is never good enough. DRE is never good enough
<Starwaster>
theysen: Who was the user? Did his handle begin with G and end with ordon Dry?
<riocrokite>
completely understand, I won't start playthrough until I finish my mods lol
<riocrokite>
lack of realistic mining, no simple isru fuels, no non-RO stockish-realistic fuels etc
Thomas is now known as Thomas|AWAY
<Pap>
I have a cylinder that is 341 cm x 516 cm i have done the calculation, but why Can I not figure out the correct volume?
<regex>
"realistic mining" lol
<regex>
Pap, how thick are the walls?
<regex>
Also, which is the diamter/radius?
<Starwaster>
what do you mean why can you not figure the correct volume?
<regex>
That too. :)
<rsparkyc>
holy crap, FAR was released!
<Starwaster>
yeah
<Starwaster>
it escaped from the confines of the Dev branch
<Agathorn>
so when you are building a new rocket stage and selecting an engine.. what are the properties you look for? I don't mean specifically the vbalues, I mean what attributes do you take into consideration to narrow down your choices? Aside from looks
<CobaltWolf>
100% looks
<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
Do you start narrowing it down based on function.. booster versus vacuum for example? Then look to thrust or Isp? I'm curious the methodiology people use
<Agathorn>
it might help me guide my UI design
<Pap>
regex: I actually have no idea how thick the walls are, I am trying to config a part, the 341 cm is the diameter
<CobaltWolf>
but ISP at both SL and Vac, thrust at SL and Vac, dry mass, cost, availability? since for some rockets there are chokepoints in production such as the shuttle's ET.
<CobaltWolf>
propellants
<regex>
Function, then looks
<CobaltWolf>
start with booster vs vacuum, then move on to other properites
<regex>
In RO there's also the question of fuel choice.
<Agathorn>
does fuel choice really affect your decision much? Or is it more a binary choice of boilooff or not?
<Pap>
That is the selectino for me Agathorn
<Sigma88>
ping
<Pap>
Basically, Cryo vs not
<Agathorn>
lol
<Pap>
lol, pinged on binary
<Sigma88>
:)
<regex>
That depends. If I'm looking to launch something dense I'll often go for hypergolics because things will stay somewhat within scale.
<regex>
but most of the time it's to do with boil-off, at least with upper stages that leave LEO
<Agathorn>
regex: interesting. Could you clarify that first comment?
<Agathorn>
Are you saying you sometimes choose your fuels to control the resulting size of the LV?
<regex>
Yes
<regex>
Not all the time, but it has been a factor for me
<Agathorn>
interesting
<Agathorn>
never would have considred that
<regex>
But then, I tend towards Kerolox for my lifters as a general rule.
<blowfish>
I sometimes think about cost of the engine vs how much you're getting out of it
<regex>
so make of that what you will
<blowfish>
e.g. a more expensive engine might be worth it if it's taking you most of the way to orbit, but not if you're dropping it after 2 minutes
<blowfish>
often this boils down to gas generator vs staged combustion
<Pap>
regex: I figured out my little problem, thank you
<blowfish>
but what do I know? Zenit drops it's high performance RD-171 after 2:30
<Theysen>
Starwaster, negative unfortunately, been following your endevaour with that user
<Pap>
Damn, volume scales up QUICKLY!
<regex>
lol
<Pap>
A rescale of 1.25 Increases the volume by almost 2x
<regex>
what is it, like 8 times increase in volume per 2 times increase in diameter
<regex>
I can't remember
<Sigma88>
:)
<Pap>
Sorry, Sigma88 gotcha again!
<Sigma88>
np
<Sigma88>
sometimes is interesting stuff
<Starwaster>
regex about that yeah. YMMV according to shape
<regex>
Yeah, I think it was in relation to either cylinders or spheres.
<regex>
spheres.
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<Pap>
I have a satellite core in the shape of cylinder and it has the "brains" of the Satellite, would we think that maybe 20% of the volume would be leftover for a "tank" (or battery)?
<regex>
Look at a contemporary bus
<regex>
specifically, how much tankage it has for fuel and hydrazine
<rsparkyc>
ok, trying to find info online about the actual 200klbf variant
<rsparkyc>
but can't seem to find anythnig
<Pap>
rsparkyc: it does not exist anywhere on the Internet
<Pap>
Except, if you look up the earliest S-IB flights, it talks about an engine for the first 2 unmanned flights that was a J-2 variant with lower thrust
<Pap>
stratochief|afk: and I went thirough this adventure a couple weeks ago
<Pap>
I was asking why it was included in RO
<rsparkyc>
so it's supposed to represent the developmental requirements laid forth by NASA for the J-2?
<Pap>
Yes, pretty much
<Pap>
I do not know why it is included though
<Pap>
Someone must have had a reason at some point
<rsparkyc>
looking at the logs of that file, SirKeplan was the first to add it
<Sigma88>
does anyone know how the stock brightness curve of the sun works?
<Agathorn>
man browsing the web for game UI designs can really be a rabbit hole
<Pap>
Agathorn: I don't know if it applies to anything you are working on as the game designs are incredibly different, but Offworld Trading has an informitive, but not overwhelming UI
<regex>
please no "selection circle" or whatever the fuck that console thing is called...
<regex>
Now I'm like actually reading a UI design article...
<stratochief|afk>
rsparkyc: did you find what you were looking for on the low rated J-2? it was used on the first 2 or 3 Saturn IB tests, if that helps
<rsparkyc>
found some on wikipedia
<rsparkyc>
basically i'm trying to setup configs for my EMRController mod
<rsparkyc>
the throttle settings we have on our current configs is because that's the thrust at max ratio and min ratio
<rsparkyc>
so i'm getting rid of that
<rsparkyc>
and wanted to find some more details about the ratios used on the 200klbf model
<Pap>
What am I missing with learning how to math?
<rsparkyc>
for now, i may just assume the same ratios as in later engines until i can find more details
<Pap>
The Communotron 32 states in the descrption that it is good to 1.6 Gm
<Pap>
However, the base rate is only 16,000,000
<stratochief|afk>
Pap: are you configuring for a real part? I generally find the fuel mass, then convert that to a volume. or, go through burn time and calculate fuel flow per s, burn time and use that
stratochief|afk is now known as stratochief|backchat
<Pap>
I know that RSS multiplies RT by 10, so that brings me to a bas rate of 160,000,000 meters, but that does not equal 1.6 Gm, what am I missing?
<stratochief|backchat>
Agathorn: yeah, boiloff vs not mostly, although cost, whether an appropriate 'good enough' stage has already been developed and can be re-used can come into play. like, the Proton upper stage (K?) for throwing things at the Moon that was kerolox...
<Agathorn>
regex: selection circle?
<stratochief|backchat>
Agathorn: also, has regex said, a less efficient hypergolic upper stage might fit the craft or fit within the fairing, while a big hydrolox one may not
<regex>
Agathorn, nevermind that, you're making a different sort of game
<Pap>
stratochief|backchat: I am converting the CotoSat mod over to RO because I am a big fan of how it works, I am going to have to use a lot of conjecture and guessing based on thing's already done in here
<stratochief|backchat>
also, good point about tankage size. prop density might come into play. probably not a consideration in your game though
<regex>
Yeah, that's not been a huge factor in my designs but it has come up for me before.
<regex>
Take a look at Proton and how compact it is compared to it's "throw weight".
<regex>
^its
<stratochief|backchat>
and not only is the proton compact, but it clusters tanks, so the components of the first stage are easier to ship
<CobaltWolf>
well
<CobaltWolf>
that's the only way to transport the first stage
<regex>
Fregat is another example, although it has reasons besides being compact.
<Agathorn>
also font licensign.. talk about the wild west of confusion
<regex>
Dude, no shit on that one.
<CobaltWolf>
just use Helvetica Neue for everything
<Agathorn>
in a lot of cases you start digging into the license and there is NO option for embedding within a game or application. IE no license available for such
<CobaltWolf>
just use the system default font
<Agathorn>
like the MyFonts site which has a lot of good stuf.. there is a license for embedding in mobile applications only
<CobaltWolf>
Did I just hear "cross platform"?
<Pap>
stratochief|backchat: any idea on the RemoteTech issue?
<stratochief|backchat>
Agathorn: as a Shuttle fan, are you also a fan of modularly constructed space stations? I ask because "Project Space Station" for C64 was one of my favourite games of all times, and I'd like missions compatible with that to be possible in your game :)
<stratochief|backchat>
Pap: sorry, no. I am the 1 person who plays without RT, at all, ever :P
stratochief|backchat is now known as stratochief
<Agathorn>
never heard of it
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<stratochief>
Pap: IIRC, there is another multiplier that affects range, depending on the level of your antenna facility at KSC
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<Starwaster>
So is NathanKell|AWAY still around or is he away again?
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<Pap>
Ah stratochief I thought that was only for CommNet, didn't know that was the same for RT
<Pap>
Starwaster: he was just around on his lunch, said he was going away from real again
<stratochief>
Agathorn: I highly recommend giving it a look. you get to plan and assemble a space station using the Shuttle, buy the components, then hire scientists/crew and carry out experiments, also take contracts for taking up and deploying satellites
<stratochief>
EOS was somewhat similar for the C64, except without the shuttle aspect, more future-y and commercial space station oriented
<stratochief>
like, Sim City in space
<Pap>
stratochief: have you heard of the game Stable Oribt? Sounds like exactly what you are describing (haven't played it yet, only saw Scott Manley)
<stratochief>
Pap: nope, I'l google that'
<Starwaster>
what is EOS? what's SimCity in space?
<Agathorn>
ahh Google Fonts have an open font license letting you do anything you want with them except resell them
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<Pap>
<-----screwed up by telling stratochief about Stable Orbit, no KSP Mars landing happening anytime in our near future. I am the US government of RO
<regex>
Wait, so can you include those fonts in something you are selling?
<stratochief>
Pap: ? so, you making space stations outside of KSP now?
stratochief is now known as stratochief|away
<Pap>
lol, I assumed you were going to download it and go missing playing it
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<Agathorn>
regex: I was wrongin that they don't all use the same license.. but yes at least a lot of them allow for use in anything, including embedded applications
<Agathorn>
regex: "The fonts, including any derivative works, can be bundled, embedded, redistributed and/or sold with any software provided that any reserved names are not used by derivative works."..http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=OFL_web
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<taniwha>
gotta say, it's nice to be able to be open about it now :)
<taniwha>
and I almost fell out of my chair when I saw FAR had been released
<Agathorn|Food>
hey taniwha
Agathorn|Food is now known as Agathorn
<Agathorn>
congrats on the new job
<Agathorn>
new-ish
<taniwha>
thanks :)
<Agathorn>
kind of suprised it didn't get out earlier from something benign like linked updates
<Agathorn>
thats what often happens in my circles :)
<xShadowx>
taniwha: i suspected just b/c ex squad and prolly follow the group, but started to think nay b/c you still around fairly actively modding kerbals - sneaky bastard :P and ya grats
<xShadowx>
any reason sarbian didnt follow?:(
<taniwha>
local reason, I think
<taniwha>
I don't know the details
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<stratochief|away>
Pap: yeah, with the contracts they added to Stable Orbit, it looks a bit more like Project Space Station
<stratochief|away>
I'd enjoy creating branches of contracts, relying on different crew w/ different specialties, and also experiments that require specialized hardware, or modules, or comms array/telescope time, etc.
<stratochief|away>
and some of the later experiments could allow you to upgrade station ops, basically. like, give you cheaper launches (after researching improvements to shuttle engine tech, in the case of Project Space Station)
<Rokker>
kek
<Rokker>
electron delayed
<stratochief|away>
Rokker: thanks for the update! I was curious about that. was the test/launch supposed to include a video feed?
<Rokker>
stratochief|away: lolno
<Rokker>
stratochief|away: you think the guy literally trying to make it illegal to film or photograph a rocket launch failure is gonna broadcast their first launch?
<stratochief|away>
Rokker: I was unaware of the personality traits of.. Mr Electron
<stratochief|away>
squared edges? stop breaking ankles in rabbit holes, just make something that works and move on to flight hardware :P
<Agathorn>
the left two buttons are togglable filters..kind of like radio buttons. The right two buttons are action buttons
<gazpachian>
upper row has more identity, gets my vote
<Agathorn>
stratochief|away: well my next step is a proof of concept UI for browsing the hardware!
<Agathorn>
gazpachian: top row ok.. for the two buttons on the right which one?
<gazpachian>
agathorn: leftmost, but it's a close one!
<Agathorn>
I agree with top row as well btw :) Though I have reasons for not liking the second row
<Agathorn>
those two buttons on the righjt I was playing with the idea that button shape might be slightly affect (symmetrial or not) by the action it performs
<gazpachian>
well, the top row can be stretched more easily if you need to accomodate more text, for instance
<stratochief|away>
Agathorn: I prefer the symmetric ones
<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
reason I don't like the bottom row in hindsight is the smoother curves are too much like LCARS displays
<gazpachian>
haha, now that you mention it! :P
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<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
not that that is a bad thing, just not what I am going for
<gazpachian>
and then people would fault your game for lacking a Majel Barrett voiceover