<xShadowx>
whats wrong with coal plants? polution free cheap power, they even burn up all that toxic coal thats laying everywhere
<xShadowx>
UmbralRaptor: ^
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<UmbralRaptor>
…
<UmbralRaptor>
………
<UmbralRaptor>
………………
<UmbralRaptor>
2x the CO2/kWh of natural gas, ash that must be dealt with, oxides of sulfur (and occasionally chlorine) causing acid rain, mercury…
<UmbralRaptor>
The sulfur/chlorine/mercury/various other trace nastiness can be dealt with if scrubbers are installed. Ash requires different methods, but can in principle also be handled. (in practice, uh, check out the Kingston plant)
<UmbralRaptor>
Even the CO2 might be possible to control if you're willing to make things, uh, remarkably expensive. Not that I'm aware of such methods yet leaving the drawing board.
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<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: also, outputs (iirc) _orders of magnitude_ more radioactivity than nuclear plants ;)
<UmbralRaptor>
Yes, but the polonium(?) is well known I thought?
* soundnfury
shrugs
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<Pap>
Everyone who is able, please do some testing for me on the updated and new contracts! RP-0 #653
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<stratochief|away>
!tell CobaltWolf just a clever google search for Saturn S-II wetlab sketch. I don't know if I've seen any other pages from that notebook of his
<Qboid>
stratochief|away: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
stratochief|away is now known as stratochief|remote
<Pap>
ah, spaces are bad, got it
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor: carbon capture has definitely left the drawing board a few times. not that I think coal power makes sense in north america, we can afford more expensive forms of power that are better for surrounding residents and the environment
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor: But I'm glad the tech to pump CO2 underground is being developed, because it will be a cheaper, easier way to ween the developing world off of coal. also, if you burn biomass derived fuels and capture the carbon, it is one of the very few ways to reduce atmospheric CO2 in the long run
<UmbralRaptor>
No biomass. No more corntaminated gasoline, thankyouverymuch.
* xShadowx
thinks UmbralRaptor doesn't know he was kidding
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor false equivalence, not all biomass power is the same as ethanol corn; just like not every nuclear plant is chernobyl
<UmbralRaptor>
stratochief|remote: perhaps, but we're in a situation as if RBMKs were continuing to be built afterwards.
<UmbralRaptor>
xShadowx: There was essentially no evidence that you were kidding.
<xShadowx>
UmbralRaptor: the world is flat, deal with it
<waerloga>
I always thought the 'flat earthers' were about not blindly accepting what others say as true than the literal meaning
<waerloga>
then I met some....
<waerloga>
holy cow...
<UmbralRaptor>
Reminder: the current head if the EPA doesn't consider CO2 a major contributer to global warming, and seems unclear if it is happening.
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor: I agree that bio-ethanol from corn is retarded as running RMBKs after chernobyl. but I strongly recommend not writing off other forms of bioenergy (other than, say, burning bloody woodchips for power) because there is a huge amount of good in that field
<UmbralRaptor>
waerloga: you're thinking of pre-2010 ones.
<xShadowx>
waerloga: lol i met 2 in a teamspeak once, they were real life buddies, i got one to hate the other (his buddy was in a dif country for school reasons and i used it against them), he got banned by his buddy, was awesome, i even watched for over a month guy never unbanned
<stratochief|remote>
aside from the forms of bioenergy I heartily support; there was an oddball one piloted a few months ago, they used wood residue in Alaska to make jet fuel. I'll consider nearly anything that can produce liquid fuels that isn't oil. but fuck corn, that is supposed to be food, and beyond that it has terrible ROI, EROI
<waerloga>
stratochief|remote: well, I recall Nazi Germany did something to make airplane fuel with bio-matter
<xShadowx>
algae ;p
<waerloga>
don't recall the details off the top of my head though
<stratochief|remote>
waerloga: did they? I know that all parties in WWII did tons of coal gasification
<waerloga>
it was towards the end
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: algae has huge potential. requests serious investment still though. current algae tech can be used to produce bio-oils for consumer goods, but not cheap enough for fuel
<xShadowx>
stratochief|remote: that i dont get, giant tank, some piping to spread the co2 around, essentially a giant aquarium, and it grows
<xShadowx>
very little costs
<UmbralRaptor>
The trick is to get it past federal and state governments that are unified in supporting coal with the occasional greenwashing of natural gas and corn.
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: needs to produce fuel feedstock efficiently enough to justify the capital equipment. needs more bio-engineering to make more efficient feedstock that grows faster and in a wider range of water conditions
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor: depends on the state, really. California is fairly solid, other than being anti-nuclear
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor: sounds like you live in a mid-west state?
<UmbralRaptor>
Missouri currently, was in Kansas ~1990-2016.
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor: yikes. poor state governments, eh?
<UmbralRaptor>
best career option at the moment would mean I might be moving to Virginia soon, but we'll see.
<waerloga>
well, NOVA isn't bad
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: algae growth is proportional to light that comes in, so giant tank doesn't work. outdoor shallow ponds might work but they need tighter temperature control, filters to stop natural bacteria/fungi, whatever from distrupting the system
<UmbralRaptor>
stratochief|remote: Ask me about how Brownback has caused ~5 years in a row of avoidable budget crises.
<UmbralRaptor>
>_<
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor: :(
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor: sounds like corporate backers want a government small enough they can strangle it to death.
<UmbralRaptor>
A plurality of the fliers that show up in my mailbox are by Americans For Prosperity. (the Koch family PAC)
<xShadowx>
stratochief|remote: if some super algae could grow in water thats like 98C then it could double as a solar farm :D smalller glass tanks, mirrors reflect in bright light to grow algae and to heat the water, fresh water flowing in enough to keep the temp constant, water flows out to a 2nd tank with a bit more light to superheat to 300C for turbines ;3
<UmbralRaptor>
stratochief|remote: Also the reminder that I struggle to get a 5 figure income as a grad student, and if I fall below the federal poverty line, I get a fine instead of medicaid…
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: making such super algae (or any better algae) require substantial funding in genetic engineering. with good funding, commercially viable strains could be ready in 5-10 years. same for engineering/improving enzymes for making biogas or bioliquid fuel from biomass.
<xShadowx>
or just fund fusion :)
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: lol, why "then water to 300C and to a turbine?"
<stratochief|remote>
even with great funding, commercial fusion is 20-35 years away
<xShadowx>
stratochief|remote: steam turbines like 300C steam
<stratochief|remote>
but.. steam turbines like pure water, not algae & nutrient polluted fluid
<UmbralRaptor>
ITER+DEMO = viable reactor design in the 2040s, assuming no roadblocks.
<UmbralRaptor>
On the US side, well…
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor: IMO, ITER & DEMO aren't the way to fusion. they use conventional conductors, low magnetic field, and are physically huge (low energy density)
<stratochief|remote>
ITER can probably hit energy parity, and be a good research facility, but low density fusion like that has no chance of being cheap enough for commercial power
<UmbralRaptor>
NIF seems to have killed off inertial confinement. Polywell developed interesting plasma densities but seems dead.
<UmbralRaptor>
Lockheed I expect to be smoke and mirrors.
<stratochief|remote>
UmbralRaptor: check out MIT's ARC concept. really, anything that uses commercial high temp superconductors is worth considering, but ARC is the best I've seen so far
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<UmbralRaptor>
hrm
<UmbralRaptor>
Looks like a paper on ArXiv?
<stratochief|remote>
depending on the depth of explanation you want, there are a few videos and articles about it
<rsparkyc>
o/ all
<stratochief|remote>
rsparkyc: \o
<Pap>
Hi rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
Pap: holy contract changes!
<Pap>
lol
<rsparkyc>
i did a quick review on my phone
<Pap>
Everything that everyone knows and loves is still there
<Pap>
Just some additions and small modifications
<rsparkyc>
cool, i'll probably go over it more later too
<Pap>
Hopefully all for the better
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<leudaimon>
Hey Pap! you there?
<Pap>
hey leudaimon
<leudaimon>
Just saw the awesome job you did on the contracts!
<Pap>
Thanks!
<leudaimon>
One thing I noticed was that you used the same altitude for all flybys...
<Pap>
Yes I did, is that going to not work as well with some of the Moons?
<leudaimon>
when I created the flybys for the gas giant moons, NathanKell|AFK told me this altitude was beyond the influence of some of them, and this would cause problems
<Pap>
That would make sense, I will look at the SOI of the Moons and adjust accordingly
<leudaimon>
(I had done exactly the same as you to make things simpler)
<Pap>
How many of the original contracts had you made?
<leudaimon>
just the gas giant moons
<Pap>
I gotcha, nice!
<leudaimon>
I was planning to do some more scientific contracts, but noticed it was beyond the time I had available
<leudaimon>
But I just loved what you already implemented and your plans for the future
<Pap>
Thanks for the kind words!
<leudaimon>
the different earth orbits and the probes and landers for the other planets is the kind of challange that was lacking
<Pap>
Oh damn, I forgot that I have 3 other types of Satellite contracts that I need to add to the coming soon area!
<leudaimon>
do you have only earth satellites in your plans?
<leudaimon>
polar orbits for the planets would be pretty nice, given it's the most useful for scientific probes
<leudaimon>
and even comm arrays for the more ambitious future, supporting rovers and bases
<Pap>
I could / should probably add specific orbital contracts for Venus, Mars and Jupiters for sure
<leudaimon>
cool
<Pap>
They would not be difficult to do
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<leudaimon>
yeah, given the ammount of work you did so fast, it looks like you are pretty familiar with CC...
<Pap>
yeah, I have a couple of Contract Packs out already and there is almost no type of contract I haven't created before
<Pap>
I use Excel to organize it all and it basically spits out the completed contract for me, some of the different types (specific satellites, etc) require more work, but at this point, those are the most fun to make
<leudaimon>
with this contract revamp and the new procedural avionics, I see RP-0 as mostly feature complete for me
<Pap>
Yea, the Proc Avionics are really a nice addition. Once I am done with contracts, I am going to move into more pricing and placing of parts in the tree
<leudaimon>
yep, sure getting more modern stuff would be nice... but it's kind of a challange because then it will really be necessary to depart from history
<Pap>
For sure
<rsparkyc>
oOo, more Proc Avi nodes, sweet :)
<rsparkyc>
be sure to checkout the RO readme, it has some instructions about how to balance those
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, if I had a working KSP install I would try to add that... I even added the info you can get from cfgs on your early spreadsheet for that node...
<rsparkyc>
leudaimon, what's preventing you from having a working install?
<leudaimon>
real life actually... don't have the time to go through all manual install
<rsparkyc>
ahh
<leudaimon>
I'm prepping a class for tomorrow while we talk
<rsparkyc>
you a teacher?
<leudaimon>
a post-doc actually
<rsparkyc>
ahh
<leudaimon>
but not in rocket science ;)
<rsparkyc>
haha
<rsparkyc>
well, all i have is my bachelors, so you're beyond me with school
<rsparkyc>
(not in rocket science either)
<lamont>
i have 98% of a bachelors
<UmbralRaptor>
leudaimon: what field?
<leudaimon>
UmbralRaptor, Ecology
<UmbralRaptor>
hm
<leudaimon>
also in Academy UmbralRaptor?
<UmbralRaptor>
Yeah, working on a MS in Astronomy and looking at PhD programs
<leudaimon>
cool
<Pap>
Fuck, I do not belong here
<UmbralRaptor>
hah
<Pap>
55% done with bachelors for Computer Science
<rsparkyc>
no, you do belong here
<rsparkyc>
you have the most time out of all of us
<leudaimon>
well, I'm probably much older than you guys on bachelors
<rsparkyc>
Pap, i'm going to submit a PR against your fork to fix the spelling issues I found
<lamont>
<— 45
<Pap>
34, married with a kid and another on a way, my time will be going away very soon
<Pap>
Great rsparkyc there will always be some of those
<rsparkyc>
33 here, 2 kids and married
<leudaimon>
ok, I'm not old then
<leudaimon>
I just changed kids for degrees lol
<Pap>
lol
<rsparkyc>
haha
<lamont>
i ran off from college to try to make millions of dollars at the tail end of the dot com collapse…
<Pap>
I originally ran off from college to try to get laid and drunk as often as possible
<Pap>
or because of those things, never quite sure
<leudaimon>
what better place to be drunk and get laid than college?
<NathanKell>
If you give it the planetary radius and orbital altitude it should report correctly
<NathanKell>
it's simple trig, I just forget exactly _what_ :]
<Pap>
thanks
<leudaimon>
on equinoxes it would be entirely on the sun, wouldn't it?
<NathanKell>
no...?
<NathanKell>
equinox means maximal, not total
<NathanKell>
you're thinking stuff up by the poles, where you can get total light or darkness based on tilt
<leudaimon>
yep, I just thought given the distance of GEO it would work in a similar manner to the poles, even tough it's on the equator
<leudaimon>
but I must be looking at it the wrong way
<NathanKell>
Oh, hmm.
<NathanKell>
You're actually quite right, sorry.
<NathanKell>
It's actually the opposite part of the year from the equinoxes when you'd get shadow
<leudaimon>
oh, it was pure intuition, but that's what I thought
<Pap>
Ah, that must be what it is
<NathanKell>
consider what geometric aligments would allow an eclipse of the sun
<NathanKell>
those alignments are only when your orbit matches the ecliptic, which is at the AN and DN of Earth's orbit
<NathanKell>
which are 1/4 period off the equinoxes
<NathanKell>
excellent intuition :)
<leudaimon>
:)
<leudaimon>
yeah, you get the sun on the zenith in the equator in the solstices instead of equinoxes... maybe living in the tropics makes this more intuitive
* xShadowx
thinks he should be eating nachos while learning math
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: that calculator should be inside ksp o.o
<xShadowx>
too bad thats kerbin not rss :(
<Pap>
xShadowx, I have an Excel sheet with some common Orbital Equations on it, would you like it?
<xShadowx>
Pap: too late at night, itd read like "blah blah blah" to me :P thanks though
<Pap>
kk
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<xShadowx>
need a ksp math forum
<Pap>
Speaking of, it is time for me to head to bed
<leudaimon>
btw, do the axial tilt hack mess with the way this should work?
* xShadowx
nominates JPLRepo for this
<xShadowx>
uh prolly?
<leudaimon>
this = Pap's doubt about what is on the sun
<Pap>
yes leudaimon that is exactly why
<Pap>
For Kerbin it is easy, with the inclination the way it is, I am struggling trying to figure it out
<Pap>
my only concern is that during certain months, it would be longer than 12 hours
<NathanKell>
nope, wouldn't be
<NathanKell>
I'd estimate an hour tops
<Pap>
ok, great
<NathanKell>
36,786 km is a lot of km
<NathanKell>
35?
<NathanKell>
It's been a while
<Pap>
35
<NathanKell>
But yeah, if you do the trig you'll see that the solid angle the Earth makes at that distance is very very small
<Pap>
and with that, I say goodnight all, until next time
<NathanKell>
Cheers!
<NathanKell>
And I think I'll head off as well, it's getting late for New Me
<xShadowx>
its 10
<NathanKell>
New Me :P
Pap is now known as Pap|Sleep
<xShadowx>
10 isnt late ;p
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<xShadowx>
night ;p
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<Theysen>
!tell Pap AIES engines are fundamentally bugged, can confirm. Deprecated is appreciated I'd say
<Qboid>
Theysen: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<SigmaAway>
is this the most up-to-date paper on Planet 9 position?
<Qboid>
Pap: Theysen left a message for you in #RO [09.05.2017 07:54:37]: "AIES engines are fundamentally bugged, can confirm. Deprecated is appreciated I'd say"
<Starwaster>
bugged how
<acc>
hey Pap, Starwaster
<Theysen>
producing thrust although the right click menu says 0 for every value, no plume anymore, strangely doubled engine icons
<Pap>
o/ acc
<Pap>
Theysen, I got your message about AIES, do you have any alternatives I can mention?
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<Theysen>
Pap, most engines are covered by other packs if not all
<Theysen>
as well as science packs and solar panels, so I'd say no need for other options
<acc>
does the FAR vauxelisation look for the model mesh or the collider mesh?
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<acc>
uh, just need 17 science points more to get sojuz and apollo :)
<acc>
s/sojuz/soyuz/
<Qboid>
acc meant to say: uh, just need 17 science points more to get soyuz and apollo :)
<Theysen>
sojasauce?
<Pap>
Theysen, are you missing anything with the mods list?
<Pap>
nice acc have you landed on the Moon uncrewed yet?
<Theysen>
Pap, missing in what condition?
<Theysen>
You said you walked through all the mods in the folders?
<Pap>
Yes I did
<Theysen>
Forgotten Real Engines and NicheParts deliver their own configs
<Pap>
Didn't know if you had everything you needed from those
<Theysen>
what do you want me to do? I have problems following at the moment
<Pap>
Oh nothing, you had asked for updates on them so you could update the front page. I just wanted to make sure you had all the information you needed to do that
<acc>
Pap: nope, only flyby and impacting yet
<acc>
Pap: I've seen you fixed the SSTU RL10 plume
<acc>
the agena need some tweaking too
<Pap>
yes, I was using the RL-10 and it was bothering me!
<Pap>
I completely skipped the early version of the Agena, so I didn't see that one
<acc>
yes, I've noticed that too :D
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<Pap>
They are very easy to fix now that I have watched stratochief|remote video and know how Smoke Screen works
<acc>
cool :)
<Theysen>
Pap, gotcha. Will start editing soon
<Theysen>
only supported mods will be listed at first
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<Pap>
o/ rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
\o Pap
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<rsparkyc>
acc, looking more at your procedural avionics issue, are you playing sandbox?
<ik80>
hm, I thought it was full of links to prebuilt mod dependencies for RO
<ik80>
no?
<Theysen>
it is
<Theysen>
follow the links
<Theysen>
and dload
<ik80>
ugh, will it help me with building RO from source?
<ik80>
got solution open in VS, refuses to build with errors basically like "missing UnityEngine.dll" etc
<ik80>
error CS0246: The type or namespace name 'UnityEngine' could not be found
<ik80>
to be exact
<ik80>
downloading dependencies now
<ik80>
i`ll need them anyway
<Theysen>
why exactly do you need to build it from source? Practise?
<Theysen>
otherwise it's included in the master branch to download
<ik80>
the zip?
<ik80>
the latest zip to download is 11.4.1
<ik80>
and there are 166 commits after that
<ik80>
figured I would build it from source
<rsparkyc>
Pap, i only hijacked an existing procedural part, i didn't mess with how the shape actually works
<rsparkyc>
so (for me) it would be hard to make a procedural cube
<rsparkyc>
but i wish we had one
<rsparkyc>
i'm sure it's just a matter of adding a new shape class
<Pap>
ik80, if you download the "Source" as a zip, all you need to do is then move the information inside of the GameData folder into the GameData of your KSP install
<ik80>
bang
<ik80>
so its built already? XD
<Pap>
rsparkyc, yes, I am guessing it is not very difficult (I just do not know coding, yet)
<ik80>
duh
<Pap>
rsparkyc, yeah, yesterday I wanted to make a realistic looking ComSat, so I hid one of your ProcAvionics cores with a cylinder fuel tank inside of a box made of 1x1 structural parts, too up a ton of weight just to make it look pretty
<Pap>
but it was pretty, so, sucesss
<rsparkyc>
lol
<rsparkyc>
ik80: i can probably help you
<rsparkyc>
first, any time i make actual code changes for RP-0, i also commit the dll
<rsparkyc>
so if you pull that branch, you should get the latest compiled code
<ik80>
yeah XD
<ik80>
i feel stupid
<rsparkyc>
also, may of those commits contain cfg fixes
<rsparkyc>
don't feel stupid, it's confusing if you don't know exactly what's going on
<rsparkyc>
i was in your boat a few months ago
<Pap>
so was I a few weeks ago
<rsparkyc>
with the .cfg files, there's no need to recompile
<rsparkyc>
as ModuleManager is what parses those
<Pap>
And Git is not intuitive if you don't know what you are doing
<ik80>
i think i`m good for now
<ik80>
copy folder, be golden
<rsparkyc>
yep :)
<rsparkyc>
now, if you DO want to try to compile, you'll need to download the unity developer kit to get the unity dependencies
<rsparkyc>
if you decide that you want to jump into that later, let me know and I'll see if i can help you
<ik80>
sure :>
<ik80>
i can code a bit
<rsparkyc>
the fact that you even know what a dependency is shows that :)
<Pap>
lol
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<Pap>
!tell egg|afk|egg If there was something in orbit of the Moon, would it stay there forever because there is no atmospheric drag, or would the orbit still decay?
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<rsparkyc>
Pap principia doesn't handle orbital decay
<rsparkyc>
where principia makes orbits "weird" is when you're farther away from gravitational bodies
<rsparkyc>
that's where small gravitational perturbations can make a big difference in your orbit going forward
<rsparkyc>
in low orbit, you'll see that the orbits are pretty stable
<rsparkyc>
there are other mods that handle orbital decay (since the atmosphere really extends "forever"), but they're not compatible with principia
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<rsparkyc>
Pap i know you didn't ask specifically about principia, but since you asked egg|afk|egg, i just assumed
<rsparkyc>
i actually don't know what would happen in real life
<Pap>
yeah rsparkyc I was curious how it worked in Principia and in RL as well
<ik80>
safe guess that in RL it would stay there for ever
<ik80>
given nothing destroys the moon seveneves style etc
<ik80>
:P
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<CobaltWolf>
o/
<Qboid>
CobaltWolf: stratochief|away left a message for you in #RO [09.05.2017 01:12:13]: "just a clever google search for Saturn S-II wetlab sketch. I don't know if I've seen any other pages from that notebook of his"
<Pap>
ik80, can we talk about that book for a second?
<CobaltWolf>
oh
<Pap>
hey CobaltWolf
<CobaltWolf>
heyyy
<ik80>
sure ask away
<Pap>
ok, so I loved the concept of the book, I loved the science of the book, but it was one of the worst stories ever written. Ever.
<Pap>
Am I wrong?
<CobaltWolf>
what book
<Pap>
Seveneves
<CobaltWolf>
ah
<ik80>
Seveneves by Neil Stevenson
<ik80>
cant agree with you on the last part
<ik80>
i loved everything in it
<ik80>
the first part is just crazy good tho
<ik80>
i didnt quite get to believe in the whole white rain concept
<ik80>
but it does seem relevant to orbital decay :P
<CobaltWolf>
I just read the summary. one hell of a trip
<ik80>
the book is 100500% highly recommended
<ik80>
if you`re a space freak ( which is a given b/c your in this chat ) is will good for you
<rsparkyc>
hey acc, i updated my other issue with some notes that i discovered while looking into your procedural avionics findings: https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/649
<Pap>
I just kept waiting for things to happen in the book, I felt like at times, he was giving detailed information and telling the story and then all of a sudden, it was "yadda, yadda" Here we are now
<ik80>
well yeah
<ik80>
but the amount of detail was just great for me
<ik80>
even though much of it didnt do anything for the plot
<ik80>
many criticize Stevenson for that
<ik80>
but it doesnt bother me at all
<ik80>
most of it is scientifically and technically correct which makes it all the better
<ik80>
if any of you got something similar to recommend i`m all ears
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<ik80>
duh, it crashed on me
<ik80>
guess i need exact 1.2.2 version of the game
<ik80>
was running 1.2.9
<rsparkyc>
yep, that won't work :)
<ik80>
still struggles, looks like it hanged
<ik80>
not sure where though
<ik80>
wonder if i should wait a bit longer
<ik80>
cpu/gpu is busy not sure if with something relevant though XD
<rsparkyc>
check the logs
<rsparkyc>
see if it's doing anything in there
<ik80>
last record is
<ik80>
[LOG 18:43:28.803] PartLoader: Compiling Part 'ProceduralParts/Parts/Tanks/3TankXenon/proceduralTankXenon'
<ik80>
seems like a problem with procedural parts
<ik80>
wonder if just removing the mod will help it
<stratochief|remote>
rsparkyc: if you (or anyone) wants to do work for making RO or RP-0 compatible with 1.2.9, please create a seperate branch on the repo for it. I'm staying with 1.2.2 and not planning to do any work for 1.2.9
<stratochief|remote>
Pap: I did find seveneyes 'lumpy', but Im a bit aclimated to that odd style of writing from lots of other books, like Asimov's Empire
<HypergolicSkunk>
hey all, hi stratochief|remote o/ I heard some rumours about a Runway-fix? is that what 1.2.9 is about, or 1.3? if you don't know, sorry for bothering :p
<stratochief|remote>
Pap: I had to re-read and read slowy the section where they jumped (spoiler!) to the many races, because of the sharp transition, but that din't terribly bother me
<stratochief|remote>
HypergolicSkunk: stock KSP put some work into making the runway better in 1.2.9/1.3, no idea if that would also improve RSS in 1.2.9
<rsparkyc>
ik80: just to be sure, what version of procedural parts are you on?
<acc>
rsparkyc: alright, thanks for the info. I'll look into it later
<HypergolicSkunk>
stratochief|remote: thanks, good to know :)
<rsparkyc>
no prob. care if i resolve your issue after I merge that branch?
<xShadowx>
1.2.9 is mainly about language stuff :)
<acc>
rsparkyc: it's fine
<acc>
if I find something else I'll let you know
<rsparkyc>
awesome, thx for digging into procedural avionics
<stratochief|remote>
RSS for 1.2.9 would hopefully just required a kopernicus to update, but who knows what degree of change might need to be made to RSS to work on a 1.2.9 Kopernicus. if nothing then, that'd be ideal :P
<HypergolicSkunk>
xShadowx: jawohl die Apoapsis, ja!
<acc>
btw you also can merge my PR on RP-0 ;)
<ik80>
rsparkyc 1.2.6
<rsparkyc>
acc: merged :)
<acc>
thanks :)
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: 'mainly', but god knows what other 'bug fixes' will spill over into requiring changes in mod code
<xShadowx>
hense why i said mainly :|
* xShadowx
speaks english so is staying 1.2.2
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<Pap>
yeah stratochief|remote that was the part of the book I was least interested in, the space stuff is where I was focused on
<Pap>
stratochief|remote, the DLL will need to be recompiled, I wonder how big of a change it will be for Kopernicus with localization of strings of the planet names and descriptions
<xShadowx>
seems to mostly be just switching to a 2nd property for the localized name, then add name to a cfg file
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<Pap>
o/ schnobs
<CobaltWolf>
wow I don't get a o/
<CobaltWolf>
?
<Pap>
nah, I waved to you earlier, one wave per day
<CobaltWolf>
nobody has posted in the BDB thread for 20 hours I'm hyperventilating
* HypergolicSkunk
is still waiting for his wave-a-day :'(
<acc>
o/ HypergolicSkunk
<CobaltWolf>
o/ HypergolicSkunk
<Pap>
\o/ HypergolicSkunk
<CobaltWolf>
o/
<CobaltWolf>
\o
<CobaltWolf>
o/
<CobaltWolf>
Look I'm the pope
<acc>
~o~
<HypergolicSkunk>
:'D hi folks o>
* xShadowx
ties HypergolicSkunk to a rocket aimed at the sun and waves as he pushes the launch button
<Theysen>
this germany in the 40's here? :^)
* HypergolicSkunk
laughs manically while being strapped to that rocket, because xShadowx forgot no rocket has enough delta-v to reach the Sun :D
<acc>
we're waving, not hailing :D
<xShadowx>
? sun isnt hard to get to
<HypergolicSkunk>
Theysen: säts ä sälut! :p
<Pap>
as long as it is night time, you should be ok HypergolicSkunk the sun isn't as warm then
<Theysen>
hailing :D
<HypergolicSkunk>
considering the Earth is flat and infinite, I'll probably end up in Mexico or Australia anyway
<Pap>
Theysen, I thought that Germans didn't have a sense of humor?
<Pap>
HypergolicSkunk, truth
<Theysen>
Germans in the majority yes :P
<HypergolicSkunk>
Pap: speaking of which - where are you from, eh?
<Theysen>
murica I guess
<schnobs>
~o~
<Pap>
Chicago, USA! Murica! The sad, sad embarrassment of a country that is America right now.
* schnobs
tries to wave everyone at once
<Theysen>
schnobs is waving I suppose
<HypergolicSkunk>
Pap: it could be worse. you could live in Detroit.
<Theysen>
damn ninja
<HypergolicSkunk>
Theysen: or dancing?
<Theysen>
being one with the flows of time
<Pap>
HypergolicSkunk, that is actually the only city worse I am pretty sure, but both equally bad as still in America
<xShadowx>
US has kicked everyone elses' ass, its doin fine :P
<Theysen>
until that giant boot is coming for your own booty, just wait :P
<Pap>
xShadowx, has kicked (past tense) worried for my kids future
<HypergolicSkunk>
Pap: I was in San Francisco twice. as a European, I easily feel at home there. will discover the rest of the US in the mid-to-far future
<Pap>
Don't get me wrong HypergolicSkunk the USA is wonderful, I am just in a sad mood with the state of affairs currently
<Theysen>
I liked that idea after Trump election of California going independent ;D
* schnobs
has a vaguely middle-eastern look and certainly won't try to enter the US any time soon
<HypergolicSkunk>
Calexit <3
<gazpachian>
Well, California sans LA is basically Scandinavia with tan people
<Pap>
lol schnobs
<Theysen>
:D :D :D
<gazpachian>
also, morning everyone
<Pap>
o/ gazpachian
<Pap>
schnobs, did you see the contract adjustments?
<xShadowx>
Pap: why worried? china owns half of US, prolly all of it by the time your kids old, and they can enjoy googling being blocked :)
<schnobs>
erm, no
<Pap>
RP-0#635
<Qboid>
[#635] title: Procedural Avionics range safety | The procedural avionics cores (at least booster and upperStage) should have a Range Safety action, like our other avionics do.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/635
<Theysen>
Fixed 2 Years to actually Be 2 Years hahaha
<acc>
Pap: did you keep the weather sat contracts?
<schnobs>
that's a lot to read....
<Theysen>
get text to speech program
<schnobs>
I like how the comm network can be done with relatively low orbits. Was afraid it would be GEO.
<schnobs>
(would also require tier2 transmitters)
<Pap>
acc, they are not still there, they will be added in the next update
<Theysen>
only meh is this: ORBITS
<Theysen>
Unlock after the first flyby of the respective planetary body. Is that historically completely correct? If I have the tech I want to do a full mission to Neptune e.g.
<Pap>
schnobs, the GEO comm network will be later
<acc>
Pap: ah, ok. because I like them very much. kinda little story line
<schnobs>
Overall, it looks a bit serialized. Launching a sat+solar cell as it's own distinct step? May as well be the first commsat.
<Pap>
Theysen, the only planet to ever have a craft orbit them is Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, all were previously flown by more than once
<Pap>
I could see that as a better idea schnobs just combine the solar sat into the first ComSat, makes more sense
<Pap>
acc, that is what will be coming with the weather sats
<acc>
Pap: alright, that's fine
<acc>
I'm one mission away from unlocking soyuz and apollo :]
<acc>
that'll be fun
<acc>
I already have the soyuz LV
<Pap>
Weather Sat Progression: First Weather Satellite (like TIROS-1), Second Generation Weather Satellites (repeatable, 40-60 degree INC), Geostationary Weather Satellites (repeatable), Sun Synchronous Weather Satellites (repeatable), Misisons to replace aging GEO and Sun Sync Weather Sats
<acc>
interesting
<schnobs>
Also.... in my last playthrough I skipped the weather satellites altogether because my explorer-like vessel could not achieve 500km -- and by the time I had the next generation of launchers, I also had better things to do.
<acc>
I do them as side-missions and to cover LEO comms
<Pap>
schnobs, yep, that is a completely legit way to play
<schnobs>
Pap: skipping the early weather satellites means I never onlock the later ones...
<schnobs>
sorry. not weather sat.
<schnobs>
I mean the ones in lopsided orbits, low PE and very high AP. Atmo survey?
<schnobs>
anyway, that low PE was still too high for me.
<Pap>
Yes, Atmospheric Analysis Satellite
<Pap>
500 Pe is very doable with anything that can get to the Moon
<schnobs>
Yep, but it requires a distinct launch.
<schnobs>
Basically, the lopsided orbit is well suited to explorer-type thingies. I think mine ended up somewhere around 250x4000.
<schnobs>
But pushing that up to 500xanything would have required a new generation, and when *that* came around, I could already make nice and circular orbits.
<Pap>
Yeah, but that is the point of theose types of missions, it is to help the player develop the skills to accomplish those types of orbits later on
<schnobs>
going back to ellipses just didn't seem worthwhile.
<schnobs>
I'll have to try again, what can be done with 40t and early rocketry.
<stratochief|remote>
xShadowx: **china represents half of the foreign investment in the US, that isn't canadian. really, even most US debt is owned by american citizens, pension plans, and corps. you're all safe, you just have Sino-phobia, just like "Back To the Future" was afraid of being owned by Japan in 1985 :P
<acc>
Pap: I'm tempted to look at the procedural SSTU SRBs. I would like to use them. the other procedural SRBs are so ugly :D
<acc>
but no idea if I can make them "realistic"
<stratochief|remote>
Pap: you have a point, regarding outer planet exploration in history. but RL humans are great at multi-flyby. it may be worth considering opening up all "orbit an outer planet" contracts once a single flyby of one has been completed?
<rsparkyc>
i would love SRBs that burn a bit after they're no longer providing useful thrust
<stratochief|remote>
acc: sstu SRBs? dude, that has been done, they are moddeled after real ones. jose and I config'd a bunch of real ones to spec, back in the day.
<acc>
rsparkyc: yeah, absolutely
<stratochief|remote>
perhaps those configs no longer work with current SSTU, but the code will still be in there (in RO configs for SSTU SRBs) and might require tweaking to get working again (by you, or someone else)
stratochief|remote is now known as stratochief|away
<acc>
stratochief|remote: huh? oh
<acc>
stratochief|away: I'm sure they're listed as non-rp0
<acc>
I'll check again
<stratochief|away>
acc: ahh, perhaps not RP-0 pricing. but the RO configs should be good. many of the real SRBs should have prices from one mod or another in RP-0, at least the earlier ones. those could be borrowed to apply to the SSTU parts.
<stratochief|away>
acc: sorry, misunderstood. saw what you were saying in the backchat, partial window
<Pap>
stratochief|away, so the idea is that as soon as you flyby Jupiter, allow orbit contracts to open for everything from Jupiter out?
<Agathorn>
so I think i'm going to fake things a bit with my game and make it so that when launching you will always go through a layer of clouds, probably around 50-60k feet, and I will use that to mask a transition from traditional higher resolution terrains to a planet sphere mapped with an Earth texture
<acc>
stratochief|away: I'm sure I can figure that out :)
<Pap>
acc, that would be awesome to have functioning SSTU Procedural SRB's
<xShadowx>
stratochief|remote: you're talking just debt, wandering away from that in past year about 20 rich chinese dudes have bought up houses near me too XD even our place one came up "i'll pay you <redacted> right now for the place, and you can have say a year to move"
<schnobs>
Pap: alright, 500km PE would be easy. It was only my design preferences that stopped me.
<schnobs>
rsparkyc: "SRBs that burn a bit after": some of the bigger FASA ones do. I assure you it is a PITA because of how decouplers apply their push, and KSPs idea of COM.
<schnobs>
Getting the elegant shuttle decoupling requires a lot of try-and-error, plus immaculate timing.
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<Pap>
Those of you playing with the new contracts...should I work on the Space Station ones, or the additional Satellite contracts first?
<rsparkyc>
Space Station
<rsparkyc>
get the rotation and resupply missions to work right
<rsparkyc>
for instance, i want to do a 1 year crew rotation
<rsparkyc>
but need to run up a supply mission halfway through
<rsparkyc>
when something docks to the station, it resets the crew rotation time
<rsparkyc>
so if you could fix that, it would be awesome
<Agathorn>
sounds like it might be an issue with CC
<rsparkyc>
it probably is :)
<Pap>
rsparkyc, that is interesting. I don't know if that would actually work. Essentailly what happens when the docking happens is that it becomes a "new vessel" let me see what I can do or if that is a limitation of CC
<rsparkyc>
you could fix CC while you're at it :)
<Agathorn>
Anyone ever ask Nightengale?
<Agathorn>
I think I just butchered his name :(
<rsparkyc>
I can't remember if i made an issue for it
<rsparkyc>
i found this before i started fixing other stuff
<schnobs>
Pap: re: flybys, do you also check wether the player has a proper transmitter?
<xShadowx>
!seen nightingale
<schnobs>
No point in urging the player to Saturn if he can't phone home.
<Pap>
no schnobs that is up to the player
<Qboid>
xShadowx: I last saw nightingale on [26.01.2017 06:23:48] in #kspmodding saying: "precious..."
<Agathorn>
I think it should
<rsparkyc>
well, that was a while ago
<schnobs>
famous last words.
<Pap>
nightingale doesn't come around too much anymore
<Agathorn>
needing that transmitter is the main thing that makes the contract hard
<Agathorn>
Pap: you can still open an issue on GitHub though
<Pap>
well, the issue is, some players play with Remote Tech and some do not, therefore, trying to make a requirement becomes difficult, how woudl I track that?
<Pap>
Agathorn, I have about the docking issues
<schnobs>
Agathorn: the Mars transmitter has been given a substantial boost, now it works most of the year (also, on any half-reasonable launch window)
<Agathorn>
Pap well the way the old ones work is it just requires you to tranmit something back
<Agathorn>
so it doesn't check for the transmitter so much as check that you managed to transmit back..if that makes sense
<Agathorn>
schnobs: :)
<Pap>
Ah, I see what you are saying. Right now the flybys don't require science transmitted back
<Pap>
That needs to be added, I completely agree
<schnobs>
Pap: I'd say you can and should assume RT for RP-0. It's one of the more essential mods.
<Pap>
that was a mistake on my end
<xShadowx>
RT is the only choice :)
<Pap>
schnobs, not as much anymore with the CommNet antenna diversity functionality
<Agathorn>
RT with signal delay!
<Agathorn>
Even NK cheats there
<xShadowx>
and kOS
<Agathorn>
kRPC
<xShadowx>
kOS
<Pap>
It is also very difficult for first time RO players. When I started playing RO a few weeks ago, I went with no RT just to get a feel for it
<Pap>
I have it now
<Agathorn>
my first experience with RO and RT was launching a rocket and instantly losing control soon as it cleared the clamps. Took me days to realize it was because I had no antenna
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<xShadowx>
you can use RT without signal delay, if new
<schnobs>
Hmmm. Time for another config pass maybe. The formula is the same in either case, so you only need to even make sure that the stats are also the same for CommNet and RT.
<Agathorn>
of course, that was back when craft didn
<Agathorn>
didn't have built in antennas
* xShadowx
tries every mod standalone once to see wwhat it does
<Pap>
I think Agathorn has the best plan, require science transmitted back on a flyby, that tests for antenna range
<Pap>
And it is the simplest to control, test for and isn't lismited by the mods installed
<Agathorn>
There was some logic to why it was done that way yes :)
<Pap>
Yeah, I have that in all my other contract packs for flybys, no idea how I missed that
<schnobs>
In current contracts, it's enough if you somehow return science from $BODY. It doesn't check if you're still the SOI when transmitting. Minor loophole.
<schnobs>
Anyone here have a) current FASA and b) KSP running?
<schnobs>
Lates dev release was two weeks ago.
<schnobs>
I can't decouple the Gemini nosecone. Want confirmation before I open an issue.
<schnobs>
XXXX
<schnobs>
correction. Mercury, repeat Mercury nosecone won't come off. Gemini is fine.
<Agathorn>
I don't think its a loophole though..its fair I think, as long as you actually perform some science at the body
<Agathorn>
guess I could see two sides to that though
<Pap>
yeah schnobs that is alright, for example, Luna 3 needed to flyby the Moon and come halfway back to Earth before it could transmit the images of the farside
<schnobs>
I've seen vids or slideshow of soeone who enjoyed exploiting that loophole. Was quite creative and science well earned, if you ask me.
<Agathorn>
yeah I think it is perfectly reasonable to do the science at wherever, store the results, then transmit them when you get closer to Earth
<rsparkyc>
agreed
<Agathorn>
of course if you are using RT doing the science either requires you have range anyway, or automation with RT computer, kOS, kRPC etc
<Agathorn>
I remember having to time it so the RT computer could do my science in one of my early flops
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<Agathorn>
when my atenna didn't have the range I thought it did :)
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] PhineasFreak opened pull request #1634: Squad antennae CommNet support (master...RO-Squad-Antenna-Updates) https://git.io/v9irC
<egg|afk|egg>
Pap: well it'd be perturbed
<egg|afk|egg>
do you mean in real life or in RSS+Principia
egg|afk|egg is now known as egg
<Pap>
Both
<egg>
real life: masscons mess \o/
<Pap>
Is 63.4 a magical inclinatrion on the Moon as well?
<egg>
it's about J2, not about Earth
<egg>
so around anything where J2 dominates
<egg>
around Jupiter most certainly
<egg>
I don't think J2 is that big on the moon, it has a weird shape
<egg>
what with being tidally locked, and then there are masscons
<egg>
poke UmbralRaptor with a stick for more details
<egg>
in Principia we currently have only j2
<Pap>
So in RL if I have a satellite in a 500km circular orbit, will it eventually crash into the Moon?
* egg
pokes UmbralRaptor with Pap
<egg>
ask an astronomer
<Pap>
nice! we have astronomers on here too, sweet
<Pap>
What about in Principia and RSS?
<egg>
500 might be high enough? but then again if you're too high you risk terrestrial perturbation
<egg>
Pap: you only have J2 in principia
<egg>
so the gravitational field is much simpler
<egg>
now if you're far away you'll get terrestrial influence
<Pap>
Damn, rocket science and orbital science is fucking hard to grasp
<egg>
but low orbits will work, whereas IRL they're unstable because masscons
<Pap>
WTF is a mascon?
<Agathorn>
Like a mascot but denser
<Agathorn>
bad joke plummets
<rsparkyc>
lol
<Pap>
lol
<Agathorn>
I *think* he is referring to the fact that a body has areas of more of less gravitational pull for lack of a better explanation
<Agathorn>
it isn't uniform
<Agathorn>
I remember reading about it on the moon once
<Pap>
Alright schnobs Agathorn all the flyby contracts are fixed
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<Theysen>
i get the dev contracts by simply downloading the rp- master?
<Theysen>
wanted to continue a little
<Olympic1>
o/
<ik80>
guise should I use RP-0 with RO for better career mode?
<schnobs>
Pap: stuff I read about Lunar Orbiter (also Apollo Satelites) said that there is no stable orbit around the moon. It was assumed matter-of-factly that it would eventually come down, but no further explanation. For all I know, it may also escape. (though starting from a low orbit a crash seems much more likely)
<schnobs>
ik80: you have to use RP-0 for career mode.
<rsparkyc>
schnobs, even a retrograde low orbit? wow, never knew that
<rsparkyc>
i figured that would be pretty stable
<schnobs>
plain RO has no sensible tech tree and dimply doesn't care for career.
<UmbralRaptor>
Masscons mess with most orbits.
<rsparkyc>
maybe the gravitational field of the moon isn't very uniform?
<schnobs>
ik80: so technically speaking you can start career mode in plain RO, but it will make no sense.
<UmbralRaptor>
Though some still work. AFAIK, LRO is in one of them
<UmbralRaptor>
rsparkyc: yep!
<schnobs>
rsparkyc: really only that blanket statement "there is no stable orbit around the moon". No reasons given. But being NASA docs, I believed them.
<schnobs>
Don't know how much they knew about masscons -- how much data can you pick up from flybys?
<Pap>
For a GEO contract, would you say being within 22.5 degrees of a "target" should be acceptable for completion of a advanced contract? Essentially that is the Earth broken up into 16 parts
<Theysen>
22.5° inclination or what?
<Theysen>
or speaking where you are on the orbit?
<Pap>
No, so what I am going to do is have a waypoint generated randomly on the Equator, the contract is going to require you to be in a Geostationary Orbit above that waypoint
<Theysen>
16 * 22,5 could have answered that for me as well..
<Pap>
I want to give the player a cushion as to how far away from the waypoint they need to be stationary
<Theysen>
to be honest make it smaller, it's not that hard to do
<Theysen>
10° maybe
<Theysen>
but put it up for discussion best on the githubs
<Pap>
Ok, I'll go with segmenting the Earth into 32 parts and use 11.25 as the angle
<Pap>
I will do that
<Theysen>
I mean GEO missions are only critical up to the part where you go into the transfer and establish initial hopeful 0° inclined interim orbit
<Theysen>
real GEOs take up to 30 days until they're in the right spot, giving that a good margin on RP-0 accelerate things of course
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: but that can be bad when i have 200+ FPS vs fixedupdate() 50/s
<xShadowx>
stuff that is physics, not graphical, tends to not belong in update >.>
<Agathorn>
1. Very few people get 200fps from the hog that is KSP, 2) Physics is about the only thing that really belongs in FixedUpdate unless you have a very good reason
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<Starwaster>
gonna smack Gordon Dry
<Qboid>
Starwaster: Pap left a message for you in #RO [09.05.2017 14:00:36]: "How difficult would it be to create a procedural cube with the functionality in Procedural Parts?"
<Starwaster>
Pap: I don't know, but I have no plans to add new functionality to Procedural Parts. I'm only maintaining it and fixing the odd bug or two
<Starwaster>
Agathorn other things that belong in FixedUpdate are things that look at variables that only change in FixedUpdate
<Agathorn>
Starwaster: yes but circular logic somewhat as it is why things shouldn't nilly willy be placed into FixedUpdate
<Agathorn>
Anyway the root of my point was that it is very common for Unity developers to erroneously use FixedUpdate just because they want the guarunteed time slice
<Agathorn>
which in turn leads to knock on issues such as other stuff being in FixedUpdate just because what it reacts to was put there :)
<Starwaster>
What if the game clock (UT) hasn't advanced? Update or FixedUpdate?
<Starwaster>
And non graphical in nature
<Agathorn>
I think KSP updates the MET in Update
<Agathorn>
Of course to make things even more confusing there is also LateUpdate :)
<Starwaster>
It might access it in Update (because, graphics) but it if they update it in Update() then they are wrong.
<Starwaster>
and I don't believe they are
<Agathorn>
Why would it be wrong? MET isn't intrinsically tied to anything I don't think
<Agathorn>
you could update that anywhere as long as you take framerate into account
<lamont>
Starwaster: did i break an engine with finite or infinite restarts?
<Starwaster>
lamont elaborate please?
<lamont>
what kind of engine were you trying to start where the ullage stuff broke?
<lamont>
finite/unlimited restarts might matter for repro'ing
<Starwaster>
agathorn: nope. they're updating it in FixedUpdate
<Agathorn>
Why?
<Starwaster>
lamont: the only thing that really matters is ullage. That's what controls if the engine can restart
<Agathorn>
Timekeeping should be done in Update... FixedUpdate sounds strange to me
<Starwaster>
and it's the engine that checks if ullage is stable
<lamont>
yeah i put some code in dev-master that doesn’t worry about ullage if there aren’t any restarts left though (because you can’t ullage an engine that can’t ever start)
<lamont>
not dev-master, just dev…
<Starwaster>
if ANY engine has no restarts?
<lamont>
no, it should just exclude engines that have no restarts left
<lamont>
if you have 2 burned out boosters and one restartable-ullagable engine it should ullage and start that one...
<Starwaster>
if you want to exclude an engine from the list because it can't restart no matter what then it shouldn't be a problem
<Starwaster>
what matters is if there are engines that have restart capability but can't because of ullage conditions
<lamont>
right that’s what i was /intending/ to fix
<Starwaster>
IFF there is such an engine then MJ must not throttle up at all
<Starwaster>
only RCS firing
<lamont>
well if you’ve got a single engine that does not have a restart left, then you have no engine that can be ullaged successfully, so MJ shouldn’t waste your RCS tryng to ullage that
<Starwaster>
trying to fire when there are limited restarts will definitely make things worse because it just burned a restart
<Starwaster>
(the engine that is; throttling up)
<lamont>
correct
<Starwaster>
refresh my memory please, what was the reasonf or these changes? Was it just because the Utilities window was showing green when not throttling up?
<lamont>
if any engine has restarts > 0 and the propellant is unstable, then we should ullage
<Starwaster>
If so, I suggest reverting the changes and only addressing the graphical issue of highlighting green
<lamont>
no, MJ was wasting my RCS
<Starwaster>
in build 954?
<Starwaster>
ack, meant 694
<lamont>
yeah was gonna say
<lamont>
oh that specific dev build broke for you?
<lamont>
okay, forget everything i just said
<Agathorn>
:)
<Starwaster>
694 was doing proper ullage control and I didn't see any RCS firing that wasn't supposed to happen. (i.e., fired RCS until stable ullage then ignite engine; after that, no RCS firing)
<Agathorn>
*puts on sunglasses* Time for a quick eye exam
<Starwaster>
DONT YOU FLASHY THING ME
<Starwaster>
Did you flashy thing me? I'm not messing around here
<Agathorn>
Never
<Starwaster>
I can see I'm not the only one here who thinks MIB when there are eye exam advertisements on TV
<lamont>
okay wait so 694 worked and 697 broke?
<Starwaster>
I didn't try anything between 694 and 697 so I'm not sure where it broke
<lamont>
it was most likely 697 itself
<Starwaster>
(and, the FixedUpdate vs Update discussion has to take a backseat obviously :( )
<Agathorn>
Unity Update discussions are like politics or religion
<Starwaster>
I can download the other builds and check where it stoped working
<Starwaster>
or whose pet or child is cuter
<Starwaster>
don't forget that one
<lamont>
so 694 included the PR that you responded to — so if 694 worked for you then it wasn’t that PR — it was the later one that broke
<Starwaster>
(obviously, mine are cuter)
<Agathorn>
all childen are ugly
<Starwaster>
agreed
<lamont>
694 also most likely fixed the real root cause of the firing-when-dropping-out-of-warp-bug
<Rokker>
Starwaster: let the space ducky soothe you
<Starwaster>
Space ducky... you're the one... you make rocket time so much fun!
<Agathorn>
nullable value types
<Agathorn>
still don't like those things
<Agathorn>
they screw with my brain
<Agathorn>
especially in swift
<lamont>
i’m used to dynamic non-typesafe languages where any variable can be nil/null
<Agathorn>
Anyone know anything about the camera setups used by NASA for capturing rocket and shuttle launches? Trying to find things like how many different cameras they had and the setups they used
<lamont>
reflection also makes perfect sense to me
<lamont>
(syntax is clunky tho)
<Starwaster>
lamont, 695 ullages ok
<lamont>
i’m pretty sure its 697, and i suspect the bug will become obvious when i get a chance to playtest
<lamont>
pretty sure i will learn something about the RealFuels API
<Starwaster>
I'm fine with nullable types... unless it's something like a nullable string
B787_Work is now known as B787_300
<lamont>
again, i’m damaged, and nullable strings make perfect sense
<lamont>
everything is an object and everything is nullable
<lamont>
even classes
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
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<leudaimon>
hey Pap! I just commented about the molniya orbit on the PR... if my suggestion is confusing, let me know
<Agathorn>
Discovered the video called "Ascent".. really amazing footage and very nice details about the cameras right down to location and focal length!
<Agathorn>
Pap: all this great contract work is making me want to play again
<Pap>
Agathorn, get on it!
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<Agathorn>
Nah the headache would be too great :)
<Pap>
leudaimon, I saw that, for the initial contract, I will leave it like it is now, for the future, more complex contracts, I will use your idea
<Agathorn>
I love RO and put a crapton of work into it over the years, but getting KSP setup properly for RO and playing it is just so much work
<Pap>
I just uploaded the Weather Satellite Contracts, so those are available now through the PR
<Agathorn>
I tried my old 1.1 install a few weeks ago only to get pissed off at MJ destroying my craft
<Agathorn>
theres just so many annoyances getting it all working together
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<Pap>
soon you'll be able to just use CKAN!
<leudaimon>
cool Pap... yeah, just a small annoyance from a southern hemisphere person, but nevermind, things are great the way they are!
<Agathorn>
not in my lifetime
<Agathorn>
I also can't stand to play RO without all the visual addons which are notoriously difficult to set up
<Agathorn>
if they evern still work
<Pap>
not anymore Agathorn I think things are easier than they used to be :)
<Pap>
leudaimon, are you in South America?
<leudaimon>
yep, Brazil
<Pap>
Nice
<Pap>
Brazil can haz into space last week!
<leudaimon>
are you referring to the GEO satellite launched in the Arianne 5?
<Pap>
yes
<Pap>
I saw your flag on there
<leudaimon>
borderline Brazilian... it was bought from european companies if I'm not wrong, but will be operated by the military
<leudaimon>
unfortunately our space tech is pretty bad
<leudaimon>
no orbital rockets
<leudaimon>
some satellites in partnerships with the chinese and this kind of stuff
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<Pap>
Yeah, I understand
<Pap>
That's why you have to bring glory to Brazil through KSP-RO
<Pap>
Is there an in-game launch site in Brazil?
<Pap>
When you play, do you launch from there?
<leudaimon>
In my carreers I usually add a launch base in Brazil, which is a real launch center right in the equator
<leudaimon>
but no orbital launches were done there yet, so it was not added to the game
<Pap>
ah, I understand
<Pap>
nice and easy with an equatorial launch site!
<leudaimon>
yep
<leudaimon>
if anybody wants the cfg I can share... in my next career I mean to add an invented high latitude launch site in Patagonia for polar and other high inclination launches and have a South American Space program
<Pap>
so you want a Molniya and Tundra southern contract
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<Pap>
Makes sense to me
<leudaimon>
yeah
<leudaimon>
I wonder if GEO comm satellites reach the antarctica bases...
<Pap>
wait! I think I can do it
<leudaimon>
that's a possible application I had in mind
<leudaimon>
for molniya satellites I mean
<Pap>
From what I thought I read GEO comm cannot reach consistently past 60 degrees either way
<leudaimon>
that's what I thought too
<Pap>
But I can use an ANY tag in the contract to see if it will work
<Pap>
Do you have any time to test one if I can make it real quick?
<xShadowx>
polar orbit, high Ap, you get comms for a day and blank out for minutes, repeat
<leudaimon>
sorry, I don't have a working installation right now
<Pap>
ok, i can play around with it later
<leudaimon>
(and given how crazy is my real life I shouldn't even be here)
<Pap>
lolo
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: for the might play again comment, principia has axial tilt :3
<Agathorn>
yeah no
<Agathorn>
principia is never in my future
<xShadowx>
pfft
<Agathorn>
most likely anyway
* soundnfury
high-fives Agathorn
<Agathorn>
way too hard
<xShadowx>
odd i find it easier
<Agathorn>
and I wouldn;t like losing things like kRPC
<Pap>
Agathorn, what language do you write kRPC in?
<Agathorn>
I like the determinant nature of KSPs stock 2-body physics
<Agathorn>
Pap: Python
<soundnfury>
Keplerian Space Program :)
<xShadowx>
they should update to work with principia >:)
<Starwaster>
lamont, just to be thorough, I tested 697 again with a dedicated proper ullage tester (no cryo) and can confirm the problem does start with 697 and neither of the previous two builds
<Agathorn>
My day job is in visual effects where Python is heavily used, so its my preferred scripting language
<Pap>
Agathorn, I am literally sitting in my last Intro to Programming class and it is taught in Python
<Agathorn>
Python is awesome
<Pap>
Agathorn, I have to choose Java or C++ next semester, which should I do?
<taniwha>
Pap: revolt
<taniwha>
(though of the two, probably C++ would be better)
<Agathorn>
lol
<Agathorn>
C++
<Agathorn>
hands down
<Pap>
ok
<taniwha>
I'd suggest C, but it's not on the list
<Pap>
I appreciate it
<Agathorn>
Java needs to be relagated to a teaching language IMHO
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<Agathorn>
Personaly I hate working in Java
<Agathorn>
though I like C# so I might be suspect
<Pap>
Now, I have heard good things about C#
<Pap>
I also heard that learning Java makes learning C# easier
<Agathorn>
My problem with Java is you end up writing 90% boilderplate code and 10% rel code
<Agathorn>
s/rel/real
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: My problem with Java is you end up writing 90% boilderplate code and 10% real code
<taniwha>
Pap: learning any C-based language makes learning C# easier
<Agathorn>
Java, like Pascal, is good for teaching concepts, structure, logic, etc
<taniwha>
(they're fundamentally all the same)
<Agathorn>
Java is also good for teaching OOP
<Agathorn>
but honestly programming is programming.. if you TRULY understand what is going on, the language is irrelevant for anything other than personal taste
<taniwha>
Agathorn: indeed
<Pap>
Agathorn, that is what I have heard about programming
<Agathorn>
if you know the fundamentals you can code in any language with a few weeks primer and Google
<Pap>
I appreciate both of you helping
<Agathorn>
problem is many people don't truly learn the fundamentals :(
<Agathorn>
they learn recipes
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: sure. Have fun implementing application software in Brainfuck ;)
<Agathorn>
if you understand why things work the way they work, then you will be golden
<taniwha>
yeah, programing is not mastering the differences between for and foreach
<taniwha>
or foo->bar and foo.bar in C and C++
<taniwha>
programing is about logical thinking
<taniwha>
(well, my view of it:)
<soundnfury>
(I agree with your sentiment about fundamentals being important, but the language isn't 'irrelevant')
<Pap>
All very interesting comments and I appreciate the helpfulness and opinions
<taniwha>
soundnfury: for the most part, it /is/
<taniwha>
soundnfury: different languages just make some things easier than others
<taniwha>
(or more difficult)
<Agathorn>
many many many many many years ago I was in school, taking programming for the piece of paper even though I was self taught and already knew it. We were covering something, I think it was loops, and the teacher walked us through an excercise. A, B, C, D, etc... then we had to do one of our own, but the differences in the excercise, basically changed the order of things and I swear 80% of the class got confused because of it
<soundnfury>
taniwha: Beware of the Turing tarpit in which everything is possible, but nothing of interest is easy.
<Agathorn>
whereas if they understand the principles they would have had no problem at all
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<soundnfury>
-- Alan Perlis
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: that isn't to say certain languages aren't better suited for certain things..my point was that if you know how to program then you can work in any language
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: and like I said, *I agree* with that sentiment. It's just your original statement was a stronger, and false, claim, at least as I parsed it
<Agathorn>
if Lua is the best language for what you want to do and you dn't know Lua, it doesn't matter because you know how to program and can pick up what you need to know easily enough..then go throw up after
* Agathorn
throws up a little every time he has to use Lua
<taniwha>
I've programmed in BASIC (various), Pascal (turbo), C, C++, Modula-2, assembly (various), Objective-C, Quake-c (rewrote the compiler to do objective-quakec:P), C#
<Agathorn>
I think ASM is the oddball here
<taniwha>
soundnfury: eh? but that's a fact of life
<taniwha>
soundnfury: almost by definition
<Agathorn>
It has never clicked with me.. I think you need to have more than an understanding of programming to work in ASM
<Agathorn>
you need to really understand how computers work on the elictrical level
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<taniwha>
no... don't need to go /that/ deep
<taniwha>
unless you're port-banging
<taniwha>
(and then you had better understand the hardware, or you may fry something)
<Agathorn>
taniwha: I just feel that understanding how to work in ASM requires more than just programming knowledge
<Agathorn>
maybe its just me though
<Agathorn>
it just never clicked
<taniwha>
it's probably that you need to keep track of what each register is holding
<Agathorn>
dealing with the hardware so low level
<soundnfury>
taniwha: yeah, assembly programming is 90% register allocation and stack shuffling
<Agathorn>
yeah
<Agathorn>
which boggles my mind how reading and writing registers actually makes things happen lol
<taniwha>
however, I found that having a consistent approach to register usage helps a lot
<taniwha>
Agathorn: hah, yeah
<Agathorn>
where is the conditional code, the procedural execution?
<soundnfury>
and yet, when you try to write a compiler, you end up writing more code to understand what the programmer wants (parsing, semantics) than to implement the reg-alloc and code generation
<soundnfury>
(at least, that's what I found to be the case)
<taniwha>
Agathorn: and all that register shuffling results in little green critters whizzing around planets following Kepler's and Newton's laws
<taniwha>
oh, and this conversation :)
<taniwha>
soundnfury: hmm...
* taniwha
checks
<Agathorn>
Unity is mostly c++
<Agathorn>
doubt there is much ASM in there
<Agathorn>
specially these days
<Agathorn>
though I could be completely wrong
<soundnfury>
taniwha: what are you checking?
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: thats why people who try to cheat the compiler and better optimize their code usually end up with worse performing code :)
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: what do you think all that c++ compiles to?
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: I meant it wasn't written in ASM
<taniwha>
soundnfury: 3900loc for expression handling, 4500loc for emitting code, 2200 for flow analysis
<Agathorn>
back in the day large chunks of game code was written in ASM but those chunks are progressively smaller and smaller today if they exist at all
<soundnfury>
taniwha: of what compiler do you speak?
<taniwha>
soundnfury: 2300 for lexing and parsing
<taniwha>
soundnfury: qfcc. the quake-c compile I rewrote to do objective-quakec
<Agathorn>
objectiveC to QuakeC?
<taniwha>
oh, 2200 or so for objctive-c stuff
<taniwha>
Agathorn: yeah, I bolted objective-c onto quakec
<Agathorn>
Modding Quake was I think my first real foray into games
<Agathorn>
Heh that is interesting
<taniwha>
rather nice to work with, actually
<Agathorn>
Most peopel hate ObjC
<soundnfury>
Just counted my compiler (zak):
<Agathorn>
plus isn't that only on Mac?
<taniwha>
native vector and quaternion types, with oop :)
<taniwha>
Agathorn: mostly mac, but linux too
<soundnfury>
1128 parsing and AST building (but that doesn't count the parser combinator library I'm using)
<Pap>
I am very glad people like you are around on here, literally no one around here can help me with any of these questions
<CobaltWolf>
@pap
<CobaltWolf>
what about
<CobaltWolf>
all the problems i help you with
<Pap>
What programming classes to take
<CobaltWolf>
like with your marriage
<taniwha>
I'm pretty sure I removed the /need/ for "local"
<Pap>
You are the art guy, no help for the programming side
<CobaltWolf>
is that all I am to you? an art guy?
<CobaltWolf>
i feel like rodney dangerfield
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: it depends whether you're a systems, applications or web programmer
<soundnfury>
I can understand why a web programmer would think the Unix API is irrelevant to them (although it still teaches some useful lessons by example, like I said)
<Agathorn>
I doubt the field for linux systems programmers is very big
<Agathorn>
even the field for application developers probably isn't very large
<taniwha>
Agathorn: I can't stand windows, haven't used mac enough to have an opinion (plus: underneath is unix, minus: walled garden)
<Agathorn>
I use windows mainly just for gaming these days
<Agathorn>
But to each his own
<taniwha>
I've been using Linux almost exclusively for almost 20 years now
<Agathorn>
I can't stand linux :) Its so user unfriendly to me
<Agathorn>
I use it at work because I must
<Agathorn>
don't suppose anyone here works with Maya/Mel?
<taniwha>
blender here
<Agathorn>
just ran into a very perplexing problem :(
<Agathorn>
Doing the same operation in Mel works, doing it in Python doesn't.. so odd
<taniwha>
maya operation?
<taniwha>
(I take it mel is maya's scripting language)
<Pap>
Are anyone of you the smart person that works on RealFuels?
<CobaltWolf>
<3 MEL
<taniwha>
I work on the MFT side
<taniwha>
a few others do the RF side
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<Agathorn>
Hate mel
<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
But I can call raw mel from Python so will do that as a workaround for now