<hattivat>
what I meant is that I wholeheartedly recommend it if you are into work simulators like factorio, stratochief
<stratochief>
xShadowx: lol, without bobs. I don't see myself every trying the new Marathon game mode (15.xx series) and Bobs at the same time. I like to think that I have more of a life than that
<stratochief>
steel, where each steel needed 10 iron plate was bad enough already, I don't want to Know what Marathon would do to the transistor requirements in Bobs
<stratochief>
I wouldn't expect Bobs to be updated for the beta 15.xx series, but I could be mistaken. regardless, I had my fill of Bobs looong ago
<xShadowx>
heh i havent played it recently, but i could never play without bobs
<stratochief>
xShadowx: besides, stop encouraging me to sink even more time outside of Mars colony things :P
<xShadowx>
indeed :P
<xShadowx>
wait you werent using factorio to build your mars colony?
<xShadowx>
traitor
<stratochief>
I'm reading The Case For Mars, and it definitely makes me want to make a game about early Mars exploration missions, leading up to the subsequent build-up of a colony at one location
<stratochief>
I certainly scorched my factorio map so badly that it looked like the surface of Mars
<xShadowx>
hey for all we know could be what NK & co are doing XD
<stratochief>
I'll have to slyly probe him about that sometime. because if he is, I'd do anything to get paid to make that game :)
<stratochief>
space history is cool, but the Mars future is cooler
<xShadowx>
id join em for free ;3 lol
<stratochief>
plus, developing a Mars industry from scratch reminds me so much of the complex resource production trees of "A Tale In The Desert" that ate like a year of my life, the only MMORPG type game I every played and socialized in
Pap|YumYum is now known as Pap
<soundnfury>
xShadowx: oh, I hope that's _not_ what they're doing... isn't that what killed Maxis?
<stratochief>
someone ate Maxis. EA? I don't expect another evil empire to torpedo Valve if they're making a Mars game
<stratochief>
there are already 2-5 companies making interesting compelling Mars games, although I don't know how far they intend to go
<xShadowx>
im prolly the only one hoping valve ISNT making HL3 lol
<soundnfury>
stratochief: my understanding was that Maxis got eaten at least in part because SimMars ran waaay over schedule and over budget and never got anywhere
<soundnfury>
but I could be talking bullshit as usual
* xShadowx
didnt hear of simmars
<hattivat>
Pap: check the scrollback, it seems that the 1.65 ratio is correct after all
<stratochief>
I also never heard of it
<xShadowx>
i kinda quit following maxis after simcity5k or w/e it was, saw the sims pop out was like meh, then distracted by various game programming jobs
<stratochief>
Fraser Cain Q&A question: "Can we just nuke the environment back to health? People complain about nuclear winter, why not use a small one to our advantage?"
<Pap>
Shouldn't the mass be different if there are different densities? And shouldn't there be different amounts per Liter if they are different densities as well?
<stratochief>
IIRC, 'mass' there means 'mass per litre'
<stratochief>
if they have the same value in that sheet, I would expect them to have the same density. of course, that should be confirmed :P
<stratochief>
MMH has a density of 880kg/m^3, so says wiki. not sure about NTO or the other (MON3)
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master dac6084 stratochief66: Merge pull request #1638 from pap1723/patch-5...
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<stratochief>
Pap: ahh, right, forgot calcs.xls is not self explanatory. so, go to the Volumes sheet, and look at the calculator starting in AA 2
<stratochief>
that should let you plug in fuel and ox, mass ratio, then it will spit out a volume ratio, and hopefully that is a good vantage point for working out how the sausage is made
<Agathorn>
heh that spreadsheet is harder to figure out than rocket science, and stratochief forgets it isn't self explanatory
<Pap>
I have seen this, the only thing I cannot figure out well is it is asking for the Tankage in tons, all I have is the Liters in the tank, what conversion do I need to do to get to that number is my only sticking point
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<taniwha>
Pap: liters * density
<taniwha>
kg/L = t/m^3
<stratochief>
Pap: err, fiddle mass until the volume adds up to what you have? :P
* stratochief
is an experimentalist, dirty shit that works
<blowfish>
I take it Rocket Lab isn't providing a stream of their Electron test launch?
<stratochief>
Agathorn: eh, I dribble out help in dribbles, as it is requested. better than wasting too much text over-helping
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<Pap>
Works for me, i fiddled until they worked, I just wish I knew what that fancy shit mean taniwha
<taniwha>
I haven't looked at the spreadsheet
<stratochief>
how many kilograms in each litre, how many tonnes in a cubic metre. equivalent density values. also, grams per millilitre?
<stratochief>
anyway, g'nite for now
stratochief is now known as stratochief|away
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<leudaimon>
Pap, did you figure it out? I'm looking at it and just got curious... that's weird that they have the same density
<taniwha>
leudaimon: 1000L in a m^3, 1000kg in a t
<taniwha>
1000ml in a L, 1000g in a kg
<leudaimon>
I'm familiar with the metric system, I'm just curious that two resources that have fairly different densities irl have the same density in the RF cfg... unless that cfg is not the correct one to look for densities
<taniwha>
if the RF cfg has the wrong densities, then shouldn't it be fixed?
<leudaimon>
I'm not familiar enough with the RF cfg to say it's wrong... I was hoping Pap found that out
<Agathorn>
Anyone here worked with Unity's built in JsonUtility by chance?
<blowfish>
looked at it but ended up going with something built around ConfigNode the last time I needed to think about serialization
<stratochief|away>
taniwha: or removed, if the proper density is somewhere else. at least, if someone believes a value or values are wrong, they could raise an Issue on the appropriate repo
<Agathorn>
blowfish: for some reason it wont' let me serialzie a list - of any thing. I can however serialize an object that CONTAINS a list and that list will serialioze fine
<blowfish>
odd
<blowfish>
this being a Unity object or just some class?
<Agathorn>
but serializing a list directly wont' work..just gives me a empty json {} object :(
<blowfish>
some comments on stack overflow seem to suggest that arrays are not supported as top level objects, maybe lists too
<Agathorn>
but what I mean is let's say you had a list of just a simple type, like List<string> strings. Then you tried to convert that property into JSON. It won't do it. But if you wrap that List inside a class and convert that class into JSON, it will work
<blowfish>
right
<Agathorn>
yeah exactly what I am seeing
<Agathorn>
thats just ludicrous :(
<blowfish>
ludicrous? this is Unity
<Agathorn>
JSON certainly supports it
<Agathorn>
heh
<Agathorn>
ok well at least I know it isn't an error on my part then
<Agathorn>
question is do I work around it and continue to use Unity's system -- which does seem to be pretty fast -- or dump it and use yaml like I originally was going to
<Agathorn>
decisions decisions
<xShadowx>
json and yaml both ugly
<Agathorn>
compared to what? I like them both
<Agathorn>
if you say you prefer something xml based then just GTFO
<blowfish>
yaml is nice and minimal
<Agathorn>
yeah and allows instancing which is handy, plus its actually very nice to read
<xShadowx>
i dout you can use it (and not suggesting it) i'm accually leaning towards ksp cfg style as my fav, close enough to json to be practical, but cleaner lookin
<Agathorn>
yaml is much cleaner than cfg - frankly i'm not a fan of cfg
<blowfish>
problem with cfg I've found is that arrays are not cleanly defined
<Agathorn>
its ok but too loose, and doesn't validate types
<Agathorn>
noithing is cleanly defined :)
<blowfish>
heh yeah
<blowfish>
it's not really a proper serialization system
<xShadowx>
i dislike any style that uses tab level to define groups
<Agathorn>
then don't ever write python
<xShadowx>
i dont :P
<Agathorn>
personally I like things that force peopel to write clean text :)
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: s-exprs or bust
<xShadowx>
funny thing is i hate curly brackets an consider them useless in code, but in a cfg file i enjoy them for grouping
<Agathorn>
I know.. i'll require modders to draw out their intentions using ascii art
<Agathorn>
want to add a new rocket engine? Got to draw out its likeness in ascii art
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: uh, in that pastebin... I don't see you actually adding comp to Components
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: thats almost how the one MMO i played worked ;p
<xShadowx>
not ascii, but fill tiles with diff design icons
<Agathorn>
holt crap soundnfuryyou're right!
<xShadowx>
(hanger, engine, weapon#, etc)
<soundnfury>
(though I dunno why the print(strings) doesn't work either)
<Agathorn>
although the fact that the simple string list doezsn't work means I probably still can't to the right concluision despite my user error
<Agathorn>
s/can't/came
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: although the fact that the simple string list doezsn't work means I probably still came to the right concluision despite my user error
<Agathorn>
still worth fixing and doing another quick test
<rsparkyc>
that's the exact one i'm saying is a BAD example
<NathanKell>
pap, stratochief|away: The RealTankTypes.cfg shows the masses per liter of *tank*, not per liter of thing in the tank. So a tank that can contain 1 liter of (x) will have a dry mass of (TANK { name = x mass = y) y tonnes
<rsparkyc>
i guess he went north to south
<soundnfury>
\o NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<NathanKell>
Pap, stratochief|away: So since MMH, MON3, etc all are apporximately the same kind of thing (moderately dense toxic chemical spew that's liquid at normal temperatures) their tank structures should mass the same
<NathanKell>
well, probably not identical because pressure, but whatevs.
<rsparkyc>
NathanKell, you getting your 1.2.2 install up any time soon?
<NathanKell>
I will be as soon as I have time, probably this weekend
<leudaimon>
o/ NathanKell, this doubt was killing me! where are the actual fuel densities then?
<NathanKell>
so I can get some RP-0 work done for once
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: in CRP
<NathanKell>
that's why RF bundles it
<rsparkyc>
leudaimon, check out my EMRController
<rsparkyc>
i do a lot with getting the density of fuels
<leudaimon>
oh! that explains a lot... I thought something had to be off with so many similar values in that file
<rsparkyc>
haha, that's exactly what i'm working on
<NathanKell>
I think you can just slot it into the RFSolver maybe?
<NathanKell>
blowfish will know these days
<soundnfury>
rsparkyc: oooooooh :)
<rsparkyc>
i haven't looked at that, but am planning on having a RO PR in the next day or two with J-2 configs
<leudaimon>
oh, your mod changes fuel mixtures?
<rsparkyc>
yeah
<NathanKell>
Pap: As for engine tech lines, I broke them out based on what's "hard" - so there's solids and nuclear, obviously, they're hard types of engines. Then there's normal bog-standard engines. Then there's the two 'hard' kinds of liquid propellant chemical engines: strongly cryogenic ones, and staged ones.
<leudaimon>
cool
<NathanKell>
It's fairly easy to convert an open cycle engine between kerolox and hypergols, IIRC. See for example the NAA75-110 on Redstone vs Jupiter-C/Juno.
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: hoping to make a start on competitive career mode tomorrow. Any ideas for a name?
<NathanKell>
Or Glushko on anything
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: or Titan?
<NathanKell>
Aerojet had more problems, but yes.
<NathanKell>
Basically, the skills you get on an open cycle kerolox engine are _far_ more applicaple to an open cycle hypergolic one, than those on any open cycle engine vs a closed cycle/staged one.
<Agathorn>
what is a staged chemical engine?
<NathanKell>
NK-33, RD-170, SSME, etc
<leudaimon>
RD-58
<leudaimon>
^
<Agathorn>
I meant what does that mean
<NathanKell>
anything that uses a staged combustion cycle (i.e. where the stuff that runs the gas generator is burnt, rather than dumped)
<Agathorn>
oh ok
<NathanKell>
that's why it's also called closed cycle
<NathanKell>
because the genertaor exhaust is fed to the combustion chamber, not dumped
<NathanKell>
so the cycle stays closed
<NathanKell>
and combustion happens in stages
<taniwha>
gas generator = turbo pumps?
<NathanKell>
the gas generator is what makes the electricity/power/whatever that runs the pumps yes
<blowfish>
usually hot gas
<NathanKell>
in an expander cycle engine, you get that power just from hydrogen gasifying, no gas generator needed
<NathanKell>
(c.f. RL10)
<Agathorn>
why not just use a battery? Probably a stupid question
<blowfish>
err, it's usually not electrical power
<taniwha>
flat in < 1s? :)
<NathanKell>
Because the RD-171, for example, generates more power than most hydroelectric dams.
<NathanKell>
(if memory serves)
<blowfish>
I don't know the exact numbers but I know that the shaft power in some of these engines is immense
<NathanKell>
also: stratochief|away, Pap, I do intend to do the multiple launchpad stuff myself this weekend. I do want to get back to, like, _actually_ helping :D
<taniwha>
iirc, the Saturn-V first stage engines produced about 115GW (thrust)
<Agathorn>
complicated buggers - but i'm hoping in ST I will be able to allow the player to futz around with some of those engine internals
<blowfish>
thrust and power aren't directly comparable
<Agathorn>
I'll need a crash course when the time comes though :)
<taniwha>
blowfish: P = F*Ve / 2
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: I think one of the newspace small launchers (RocketLabs Electron?) is using battery-powered pumps
<taniwha>
(I think it's /2)
<blowfish>
well yes, kinetic energy of exhaust is one way
<soundnfury>
but it's really only feasible with modern high-density batteries, and then only for small engines
<NathanKell>
Interesting side note: HTP-Kero engines are closed cycle :)
<taniwha>
note: no idea how much power S-V's gas generators produced
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: that's because HTP is the best :)
<NathanKell>
(c.f. Black Arrow)
<blowfish>
taniwha: another way to measure power is how much shaft power the turbines are producing
<NathanKell>
Density is not more important than energy, no matter what Black Horse's proponents want to believe :P
<Pap>
o/ NathanKell
<Pap>
That makes sense about all of that stuff
<NathanKell>
Sorry about the pingathon :P
<Pap>
With the fuels I mean
<taniwha>
blowfish: I tried to specify that the power figure was for the thrust, not the turbines
<leudaimon>
we were looking at the wrong file, Pap!
<Pap>
For the AJ10-190, is it possible that the fuel type is wrong and it should be NTO like the NASA docs say?
<taniwha>
blowfish: I'm pretty sure turbine power != thrust power
<Pap>
I know leudaimon and it should have clicked for me as well!
* soundnfury
needs a name for competitive-mode mod
<soundnfury>
naming is hard
<blowfish>
taniwha: correct, but if you're looking at figures you might see different things
<soundnfury>
(that and cache invalidation)
<UmbralRaptor>
soundnfury: to the RNG!
<NathanKell>
Pap: What do we currently have it as?
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Stellar Trail, obvs
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: which RNG? !wpn?
* NathanKell
runs away from Agathorn
<taniwha>
blowfish: the figures I saw were on atomic rockets talking about engine power
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: xD xD
<taniwha>
(and thus thrust, not turbines)
<leudaimon>
I had this feeling it was something like that, because those were not RESOURCE_DEFINITION fields
<Agathorn>
yes I know its a horrible name :(
<Pap>
NathanKell: MMH and MON3
<UmbralRaptor>
soundnfury: I was thinking more of github, but sure. Why not?
<blowfish>
NathanKell: so basically the engine decomposes HTP, runs it through the turbine, then mixes with kerosene in the main combustion chamber?
<soundnfury>
ideas so far: Space Race, LightMultiPlayer, World Firsts.
<taniwha>
Jovian Trail?
<Agathorn>
at least now I know it isn't just me that comes up with bad names :D
<rsparkyc>
some how the reflection in my mod actually causes KSP to CTD
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: but I want something that's at least a _little_ bit descriptive...
<Agathorn>
I just need to convince NathanKell to let me use Go For Launch
<UmbralRaptor>
blarg
<soundnfury>
!wpn UmbralRaptor
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptor a ferroelectric well-tempered array
<Agathorn>
but yeah Stellar Trail was always intended to be a working title with somethign better chosen later
<Agathorn>
no sense getting caught up in the name and not actually working on the game :)
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: tell you what. If you manage to resurrect the original Go For Launch, we'll let you use the name :P
<Agathorn>
oh was there already a game with that name?
<Agathorn>
guess I shoudn't be surpised. All the good names are taken by now :)
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: I thought that VR Project Mercury game was already using it?
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: just saw that actually on google
<Agathorn>
bastards
<Agathorn>
I'm sure something will roll into place eventually
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: I meant if you get our co-op ksp game going again :P
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Racing Upwards ?
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: ahh hehe
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Multilaunch ?
<rsparkyc>
Go for Launches
<taniwha>
NathanKell: soundnfury: Racing Outwards?
<Agathorn>
Go for Lunch
<rsparkyc>
now i'm hungry
<taniwha>
(since there is no up :)
<NathanKell>
...
<rsparkyc>
thanks for that
<Agathorn>
:)
<taniwha>
actually, it's getting on to lunchtime here
<rsparkyc>
Go for Lurch: the Mercury-Redstone 1 experience
<rsparkyc>
that has gotta be the funniest launch ever
<Agathorn>
ideally I want something that doesn't just evoke the early days of space or launching rockets, but the wider concept of stellar exploration and colinization of other worlds
<Agathorn>
seeking out new life and new.. err yeah
<Pap>
Into the Cosmos
<rsparkyc>
Into the Kraken
<Agathorn>
pretty siure thats been taken
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: All These Worlds? probably been taken tho
<rsparkyc>
I canz find planets
<Pap>
Step 1: Slap a Tycoon on the end of the title, Step 2: Profit!
<Pap>
Space Tycoon
<Pap>
Stellar Tycoon
<Pap>
Rocket Tycoon
<leudaimon>
Aim for the stars
<Pap>
Space Program Tycoon
<rsparkyc>
Stellar Space Rocket Tycoon
<Agathorn>
someone has tycoon on the brain
<Pap>
Just giving the people what sells!
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Seriously, look up Korolev and Road to the Stars
<rsparkyc>
lol, just got a ksp loading message: "Never visiting Dres"
<Agathorn>
I've seen Road to the Stars
<rsparkyc>
never saw that one before
<Agathorn>
I was goign to use that originally
<Agathorn>
I was going to go with Road to the Stars but wasn't sure if that would be a problem or not
<Agathorn>
it does well evoke the theme though
<soundnfury>
hmm, maybe I could name my mod "One-Upsmanship"
<Agathorn>
I also toyed with "Multiplanetary Species" but thought it too wordy :)
<stratochief|away>
soundnfury's Race To Space
<Agathorn>
its probably just as bad as Stellar Trail.. just doesn't roll well
<soundnfury>
stratochief|away: I was gonna say Jebediah Kerman's Race Into Space :P
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: tbh Stellar Trail sounds ok
<soundnfury>
apart from the thought of Stellar Trail Mix. Which I suppose is a fair description of astronaut food :/
<Pap>
Could go with Path to the Stars
* UmbralRaptor
is reminded of the name of a 90s game. >_>
<Agathorn>
<Noun> to the Stars
<taniwha>
Star Path
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<rsparkyc>
NathanKell: you did a fair amount of work on Procedurals, yes?
<Agathorn>
or even just "To the Stars" but another steam game is called Into the Stars so its kind of similar name
<taniwha>
Agathorn: or just "To the Stars"
<Agathorn>
:D
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: Ad Astra?
<taniwha>
heh
<stratochief|away>
Agathorn: Stellar Race? covers the 'space race' part, but also has some flavour of the 'Interplanetary Species" concept
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: there is a board game with that name
<soundnfury>
although come to think of it Ken Burnside might have issues with you using that name :/
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: I have a fair amount of work in PP and a few pulls in PF yeah
<rsparkyc>
i can't remember if i asked you this before, but have you seen this issue?
<rsparkyc>
or at least tell me it's just a mac problem...
<stratochief>
soundnfury: remind me again, which economist's conception of anarcho-capitalism best matches your own view?
<blowfish>
what ever happened to RVE?
<Pap>
blowfish: it is now RSSVE
<Pap>
NathanKell: I got your notes on the tech tree
<Pap>
I think breaking things out the way you discussed should work well, Then I think having Rocketry branch out into 6 categories of Nuclear, Electric, Solids, Staged Combustion, Hydrolox, Orbital Rocketry like the CTT tree will work well
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<Agathorn>
Agathorn: To the Moon and Beyond ?
<Agathorn>
bah it didn't highlight it like I expected
<Agathorn>
guess I can't ping myself :D
<taniwha>
Agathorn: To the Moon and Beyond ?
<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
thanks
<taniwha>
np
<xShadowx>
!tell Qboid Agathorn To the Moon and Beyond
<Qboid>
xShadowx: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<xShadowx>
aw
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* xShadowx
kicks Qboid in the code
<NathanKell>
Pap: Cool!
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: Yeah, I hope to get up to 1.2.2 this weekend
<blowfish>
Pap: noted a couple of issues I've found thus far in the current RO-SSTU issue. I may work on some of them later, but wanted to get them down on paper first.
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<Pap>
Great blowfish! It is a mod that acc and I have both been using a lot and have been working through some issues as we find them
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<blowfish>
!tell acc It looks like you reverted my change to the diamter increment on SSTU from 0.1 to 0.5m in this commit. Was that deliberate?
<Qboid>
blowfish: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<blowfish>
Rocket Lab says their Electron test flight made it into space
<blowfish>
knowing the difference between space and orbit, I wonder if that was deliberate
<Pap>
blowfish: Why does the CEO dislike televised launches?
<blowfish>
bad publicity if it fails I guess
<blowfish>
which on a first launch is probably somewhat more likely
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<leudaimon>
funny, there is an example of battery powered turbopump people were discussing earlier
<leudaimon>
and such a low thrust for an orbital rocket
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<Pap>
G'night all
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<B787_Bed>
NathanKell|AFK: CONGRATS on the new job !!!!!!!!
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<blowfish>
well, that was quite an energetic launch
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<NathanKell>
o/
<NathanKell>
B787_Bed: Thanks! :)
<xShadowx>
we get free-for-youal-friends discount riiiiiight? no? fine you no longer a friend! :P jk
<xShadowx>
er for loyal*
<xShadowx>
how the hell did i typo that XD
<xShadowx>
hmm i feel like makin a mars rover :D
<SpecimenSpiff>
NathanKell, going to stream tonight?
<NathanKell>
might as well
<xShadowx>
\o/
<taniwha>
da stream, da stream!
<taniwha>
(man, that was long ago)
<SpecimenSpiff>
cool. Challenge for you if you want ideas: 1st stage with 7 or more SSME, acceleration limit appropriate for manned, go :)
<taniwha>
SpecimenSpiff: a tank of that fluor-whatever liquid we can breath: pretty high limit ;)
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: SSME throttle
<NathanKell>
Try again :P
<SpecimenSpiff>
yeah, but not down to zero
<SpecimenSpiff>
IM really curious to just watch you build a monster rocket backwards starting from engines not payload
<taniwha>
better challenge: 2000t to LEO :)
<taniwha>
(it was thanks to NathanKell I managed to do 2000t to LKO when KSP 1.0 came out)
<ferram4_>
Psh, 2000t to LEO is puny
<ferram4_>
5000t
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<ferram4>
Fully-loaded Saturn MLV to LEO. :P
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<taniwha>
yeah, well, you did that monster rocket a while back :P
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<Rokker>
stratosleep: electron got rekt
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<HypergolicSkunk>
god I wish Squad would change the Thrust-Limiter control on RCS thrusters
<HypergolicSkunk>
those bar controls are so awkward
<xShadowx>
HypergolicSkunk: forget the name but there was a mod for throttle controlled rcs
<HypergolicSkunk>
xShadowx: I think Mechjeb can do it too, when you enable 'use RCS thrusters when engines are offline' in Smart RCS
<xShadowx>
and the mod uh actions everywhere or somethin, to set preset thrust points in vab
<HypergolicSkunk>
it's just that the bar to set the throttle is so tiny, and the steps are, too, and sometimes they're not even working, so you have to right-click something else first, come back to the thruster, and hope it recovered
<HypergolicSkunk>
would be nice to be able to enter the number manually, or use an arrow-up/arrow-down interface
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<hattivat>
!tell stratochief* kerbalism report 0.1: I haven't tried changing anything yet, but I investigated the potential. The non-LS parts can be turned off in settings - notably the parts which would conflict with TestFlight and RemoteTech. Then there are what the mod creator calls "profiles", and as far as I can tell, it seems that these profiles can effectively turn off any LS-related functionality, which
<Qboid>
hattivat: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<hattivat>
should provide compability with TACLS. Although to be honest, TACLS has no obvious advantage over Kerbalism's LS functionality, so I wouldn't discount the possiblity of it replacing and/or providing an alternative to TACLS, although this is obviously not my call to make. Finally, there is the license - it's The Unlicense, so there is absolutely nothing stopping us from just forking kerbalism wholesale if
<hattivat>
we ever decided we wanted to.
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<Pap>
o/ hattivat
<Pap>
My only concern with Kerbalism is that there seems to be a lof of inter-mod incompatibiltiy, has taht been fixed in the last 6 months?
<hattivat>
\o Pap
<hattivat>
I cannot say that I know, I have just returned to KSP after a lengthy hiatus
<hattivat>
what I can say is that designing a crewed mission with Kerbalism, with it covering things like habitable volume, radiation shielding, comfort amenities, etc.
<hattivat>
is a whole level above what we have in RO
<hattivat>
so I think the possibility of using it should be investigated, which is I intend to do this weekend
<hattivat>
and there is a neat mission planner too, showing you how long your crew can manage with what you gave them
<hattivat>
so incompatibility is something I will investigate next, but from what I can see in Kerbalism's configs, it only seems to use Module Manager for it's Antenna and Reliability modules
<hattivat>
which we would disable anyway
<hattivat>
oh, and the "comfort" stuff for a few habitats, but that does not look like something that could conflict with another mod
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<Pap>
hattivat|bath: that is great to hear. I used it a lot about a year ago and thought that it was a really great mod
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<Pap>
maxTemp and maxSkinTemp for RO purposes, is this in Celsius in KSP? And are RL values translated correctly to these in-game values?
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<gazpachian>
Pap: Kelvin, as far as I know
<Pap>
Yep, that sounds accurate, thanks gazpachian
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<riocrokite>
http://i.imgur.com/DOY657N.png solution rocket lab and spacex FH to succeed in next flight: electron atop FH
<riocrokite>
FH gets whole electron rocket into orbit
<riocrokite>
if FH fails, electron separates and gets to orbit itself
<riocrokite>
if electron fails technically it's okay since it's already in orbit
<hattivat>
: D
<hattivat>
what if FH explodes? electron would need a launch escape tower
<hattivat>
that would be something, launch escape system for an entire rocket
<riocrokite>
just some kind of hardened plate between FH and electron and emergency start of 1st stage electron engines
<riocrokite>
what could possibly go wrong?
<riocrokite>
oh hell will post in reddt
<hattivat>
well, with a plate hardened enough you could think about FH explosion as a short boost, I guess
<hattivat>
a poor man's project orion basically
<riocrokite>
haha yes that would be funny
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<gazpachian>
$200M orbital rocket explosion = poor man's anything
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<hattivat>
well, compared to the know-how and infrastracture needed to mass produce shaped nuclear warheads, I'd wager it's still quite a bit cheaper
<gazpachian>
easier to get congress funding for nukes than for orbital rockets however. :D
<hattivat>
that is certainly true
<hattivat>
however, getting congress approval for their detonation in the atmosphere might be easier in case of rockets ;)
<gazpachian>
so you're saying, launch Orion underground?
<gazpachian>
Cause I don't know what that means or how that would work or anything, but it sounds amazing.
<hattivat>
I think launching it from within a bulding would be optimal
<gazpachian>
and not have that building turn to a fine dust
<hattivat>
I'm not American, but I imagine many of them would nominate Congress as the launchpad
<gazpachian>
neither am I, but they sure know how to blend politics and reality tv entertainment
<hattivat>
I imagine firing the first shot underground would give it quite a boost in effect, like that hypersonic manhole cover
<gazpachian>
yeah, let's engineer something to survive those g forces.
<hattivat>
I vote for a tungsten rod
<stratosleep>
tungsten Rod for president. he is a solid guy
stratosleep is now known as stratochief
<stratochief>
o/
<Qboid>
stratochief: hattivat left a message for you in #RO [25.05.2017 11:40:24]: "kerbalism report 0.1: I haven't tried changing anything yet, but I investigated the potential. The non-LS parts can be turned off in settings - notably the parts which would conflict with TestFlight and RemoteTech. Then there are what the mod creator calls "profiles", and as far as I can tell, it seems that these profiles can effec
<Qboid>
tively turn off any LS-related functionality, which"
<hattivat>
if we spray-paint it with a slogan like "suck it, you chinks and ruskies", it should be enough of a payload to secure congress funding
<hattivat>
stratochief: o/ see the scrollback for the rest of that message
<stratochief>
hattivat: I did, yep
<gazpachian>
anyways, I'm off, take care! :)
<hattivat>
you too, cheers
<stratochief>
o/ gazpachian
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<stratochief>
riocrokite: boop. was it you I talked to about CO and H2 use to reduce iron oxide to iron metal?
<Pap>
o/ stratochief
<riocrokite>
not me stratochief
<riocrokite>
I settled for molten regolith electrolysis so just lots of energy and no other inputs
<riocrokite>
also magnetic separation for reduced iron straight out of munar regolith
<stratochief>
riocrokite: yeah, fair enough. at least, that might be a good option for the Moon, since it doesn't have a source of H2 or CO
<stratochief>
the H2 and CO used can be recycled, but recycling is never perfect
<riocrokite>
yah
<stratochief>
but for Mars, either could be used. and IIRC using CO is exothermic, and CO will be a side product of a number of other Mars ISRU processes
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<riocrokite>
I have 12.3 MW solar concentrator in the pipeline for the he3 miner so might as well use it to MRE ;)
<riocrokite>
that would be what 3MW for duna?
<riocrokite>
70m diameter dude
<riocrokite>
actually it would be half for duna so respectable 5.5-6 MW
<stratochief>
riocrokite: is that the electrical output of the system? is it intended to be shipped in, or made natively?
<riocrokite>
however there would be problem with power on Dres and Jool
<riocrokite>
heat output
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<stratochief>
for anything thermal, the thermal output should also be considered, since Duna/Mars starts to get cold, so human and industrial processes like waste heat
<riocrokite>
wait it's electrolysis so I need EC input not heat lol
<stratochief>
riocrokite: cool, gotcha. something Zubrin points out about solar concentrators is that they care which direct the light comes from, so the few cloudy seasons on Mars would kneecap their output
<riocrokite>
so that's like half after conversion looses
<stratochief>
riocrokite: you'd probably expect something closer to 15-25% conversion efficiency from such a system, on a good day
<riocrokite>
meh, then I would need big mobile nuclear reactors
<stratochief>
why mobile? can't you bring the water to you, via pipe?
<stratochief>
also, the ideal on Mars is finding an underground geothermal reservoir, which gives you both heat and water, which can be flashed to steam to produce power
<riocrokite>
water = deep mining for me
<stratochief>
actually, I claimed #Mars, I should try to build a colony of explorerers/ISRU people over there :)
<riocrokite>
I don't expect water to be available on surface even around poles
<riocrokite>
I was thinking about Duna having only dry ice on poles
<stratochief>
riocrokite: for Duna, or for Mars? because the Viking experiment found at least 3% water content from surface soil on Mars when it was testing for life
<stratochief>
and there could be waaay more a bit further down, and concentrated at different locations
<riocrokite>
yes, deep drilling for water / heat / KREEPS and what have you is in the pipeline
<stratochief>
damn, that whole thing is beyond glorious
<riocrokite>
far future stuff, need to finish a lot of things before
<stratochief>
maybe. it could be a near-term science rig. far future if it is soley for ISRU, but a solid drilling rig has plenty of value for Science
<stratochief>
can you imagine how much Harrison Schmitt would salivate for even a 5 metre coring of the Moon?
<stratochief>
the cool thing, IMO, about geothermal reservoirs is that ones down to ~1 km down could be detected by surface rovers or other probes, using fairly simple Geophysics technology
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<stratochief>
so, during the initial Mars exploration missions we can be passively looking for them, and then compare the location we find to good locations for other resources to determine the best place for the first permanent base
<riocrokite>
yah
<stratochief>
I still can't get the idea out of my head about how our universe might be the 3 dimensional surface of a black hole in 4 dimensional space. the intial expansion of the universe was the initial collapse/formation of the black hole
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<stratochief>
I was just thinking about how 'dark matter' might be the gravitational influence of matter outside the event horizon, since it would emit gravity waves, some of which would pass into the black hole (here) and have a detectable impact
<stratochief>
this is my problem with theoretical physics, considering big new things just makes you feel like you're high :P
<soundnfury>
stratochief: david d friedman http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ (in answer to your question last night, as I'd already gone to zed)
<stratochief>
soundnfury: thankee
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<Agathorn>
I noticed that SSTU now lets you choose the nose cone/thrust plate from a selectino gui rather than clickin next, next, next etc...Is that added in by SSTU or RO?
<xShadowx>
riocrokite: now have pipe deplete ;p lolz
<stratochief>
Agathorn: that is part of SSTU, I believe. certainly not from us
<Agathorn>
stratochief: ok cool.. noticed a problem with it and just wanted to check before reporting it on SSTU and making shadowmage mad :)
<stratochief>
Agathorn: what is the problem?
<Agathorn>
Once you select an extension with i you can't remove it
<Agathorn>
The browser has no "None" option
<Agathorn>
So if you add say a tank bottom/thrust plate, then change your mind you can't take it back off
<stratochief>
it is probably worth double checking if the same occurs with SSTU in stock, before creating an Issue on SSTU. or, check if such an Issue already exists
<Agathorn>
didn't see an existing issue
<egg>
!wpn stratochief
* Qboid
gives stratochief a progressive pharmacy
<egg>
stratochief: btw, principia release today
<stratochief>
FWIW, I've seen that problem as well Agathorn
<stratochief>
egg: cool! changelog exists yet, or no?
<stratochief>
egg: thanks! I'd found it and was reading it, but the link is handy :)
<stratochief>
egg: so, I remember mentioning a porkchop plot, and you explained how creating one would be basically unpossible/unreasonable in Principia, for many situations/cases
<stratochief>
egg: I'm still trying to think my way around a solution to that, at least having Principia able to help me towards making a vaguely valid interplanetary Hohmann transfer, that I can then tweak and optimize myself?
<stratochief>
or, perhaps would/should Mechjeb's porkchop give me something that is 'close enough', then principia can take note of the burn characterized by the mechjeb generated maneuver node, and translate that into a principia burn I can look at the forward projection in time of, and tweak myself?
<stratochief>
I think the important, meaningful question there is "Principia can translate a burn in its own Planner into the KSP navball, maneuver node. Can it also do the reverse?"
<Sigma88>
!wpn egg
* Qboid
gives egg a hydrofluorocarbon with a † attachment
<egg>
stratochief: no
<egg>
stratochief: could it? maybe, but I don't really care enough to implement that, and it sounds like a lot of work
<stratochief>
egg: fair enough. I'll try to plan my own hohmann transfer again, as I practice principia in stock. but ultimately, if I can't setup a transfer with less than ~15 minutes of trying, I can't very well use principia in RSS, since it would only be harder there :(
<Sigma88>
:)
<hattivat>
ah, you meant stock scale
<hattivat>
then I have no idea how to help
<stratochief>
basically, same reason I gave up trying to play stock originally. I didn't enjoy spending most of my mission planning time building ladders, and testing them on Kerbin to ensure the astronaut could climb up and down again, rather than on interesting mission thing
<egg>
(this allows you to target a specific spot on the surface from interplanetary space \o/
<egg>
)
<stratochief>
hattivat: now, i you can get trajbrowser to work for me back to the 50s-90s, I'd be very happy
<egg>
stratochief: well, trajectory planning is interesting mission thing :-p
<stratochief>
egg: yeah, that is very cool. I definitely need to practice with the frames more. but i've tried all the relevant ones a few times, and have little luck getting a basic transfer unless I'm already within a few days of an ideal hohmann
<egg>
stratochief: well I'm not sure what you're getting at there, if there's not transfer window you're not going to find it
<stratochief>
perhaps the MechJeb porkchop will be sufficient to narrow the transfer window time I should be shooting for to a ~1-10 day window, as a useful starting point for then planning a burn using principia? or, use that silly old "relative angle of the planets" thing
<egg>
stratochief: I mean it's real life, so if patchy conics are a good approximation they will remain so
<stratochief>
you know if IF is true, I do not :P
<stratochief>
yeah, I agree trajectory planning is interesting, but to a point. I enjoy fine-tuning it, but not spending 15 minutes not being anywhere near a burn that will get me near the target planet
<egg>
stratochief: well are you trying to find a fancy low energy transfer
<egg>
if you're doing Hohmann, then conics are a pretty good approximation
<stratochief>
egg: nope, just a basic transfer.
<egg>
if you're not, porkchops aren't going to save you this time, and it can be fucking hard to find (though for the moon it should be workable
<stratochief>
alright, good to know. I'll try shuffling my trajectory planning pipeline, and start from mechjeb's suggestion
<egg>
)
<egg>
stratochief: if you're not near a transfer window, things are shit no matter how you plan, it's not intrinsic to principia's planner :-p
<egg>
stratochief: now you have things like earth-centred fixing the direction of the sun too, which can be useful to plan your escape burn
<stratochief>
egg: true. but mechjeb tells me instantly that I'm not near a transfer window, principia does not. I suppose I can look at other things to help me figure that out before I try using principia's planner
<egg>
because the angle wrt the sun will be what it looks like
<egg>
stratochief: yes, which is why mechjeb and principia are different things and you should use both
<egg>
principia isn't a trajectory optimizer or an autopilot
<stratochief>
egg: lol, I love how that maccollo video ends
<egg>
:D
<egg>
no signal
<egg>
(at least it's not an overflow bug)
<stratochief>
hattivat: if trajbrowser would show me the double Venus-Mars window used in Journey (1986?) I'd be a happy man
<egg>
stratochief: I think there's the arrowstar TOT that might be useful for that stuff too?
<egg>
never used it, but it seems quite nifty from afar
<stratochief>
egg: I never got much out of it. but I did figure that TOT out once, and took some notes of windows it helped me ID
<stratochief>
*transfer windows
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<Agathorn>
Thought you were planning airstrikes for a minute there
<Agathorn>
TOT - Time on Target
<Agathorn>
used for coordinated strikes that impact a target at the same time from multiple vectors/sources
<stratochief>
nuke them to dust, x5?
<Agathorn>
Shock and Awe baby
<stratochief>
poor babies
<Agathorn>
Never liked kids anyhow
<stratochief>
thankfully, they segregate them from society most of the year. this is one of the downsides of summer. children playing in my parking lot!
* stratochief
waves fist from balcony, waves cane
<Agathorn>
I love how if you look for "Singleton" on the Unify Wiki the first line on the page reads "While Singletons are great, they're also highly controversial thanks to their abused use along the years."
<xShadowx>
they're loud, smelly, and destructive, cant we make some kind of compound to keep them away from us?
<Agathorn>
brussel sprouts
<xShadowx>
eww
<xShadowx>
and i ment compound as in some far away place fenced off so they stay inside of it :P
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: I prefer the term Zero Hour
<riocrokite>
people have such stickers here
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: well TOT is what the US Military calls it..you brits can call it whatever you want :)
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<soundnfury>
so I'm wondering about the logic for my race into space
<soundnfury>
specifically, the bit where whoever got the last 'first' (the 'leader') isn't eligible to get paid for this one
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<soundnfury>
the question is, if they're the first to get this one, should the _second_ player to get this one get paid for it,
<soundnfury>
or does no-one get paid at all?
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<stratochief>
soundnfury: depends on what ends up balancing things, play-wise
<soundnfury>
hmm
<soundnfury>
trouble is, they're both difficult to write :/
<soundnfury>
so if I pick the wrong one, and have to implement the other, that's two difficult things I have to write
<stratochief>
yeah, I'm not sure of a reasonable way to make it so that whoever is leading early on doesn't run away with it
<soundnfury>
stratochief: maybe part of it could be that science leaks to competitors somehow?
<soundnfury>
I usually find that my playthrough is sequenced by the time it takes to research various techs
<stratochief>
could be, yeah. or the more people who've unlocked a tech or a part, the cheaper it is for other players to unlock or buy it?
<soundnfury>
something like that, yeah. But now the server has to keep way more state and stuff thereby gets harder to program :S
<soundnfury>
maybe just something like "if you research a tech, everyone else gets all its prereq techs for free"
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<soundnfury>
(that's free in KCT time, not science points)
<stratochief>
soundnfury: seems reasonable. keep in mind, the others either might A. not have started researching the new 0 time tech, or B. be midway through research already
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<AnticlockwisePropeller>
Hi! Does anyone know if it's possible to reference multiple ModuleEngineConfigs on a single part without them interfering with each other? I have an LR-79 part with two LR-101 verniers attached (as in Thor/Delta) that I'm trying to config.
<ferram4>
It should be no problem. I actually think that the config for the X-405 already has that kind of setup.
<AnticlockwisePropeller>
Thanks ferram - I'll check out the X-405 for inspiration
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<rsparkyc>
stratochief: have one last bug i'm trying to work out with my EMR controller, then I can probably make a PR for the J-2
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<Agathorn>
bam! Loading of hardware data and dynamic properties at runtime..check.
* xShadowx
hides his component serials
<Starwaster>
couldn't figure out why my spaceplane weighed over 20000+ tons.... until I realized I'd accidentally added over 2 million liters of lead ballast.... oops.
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<gazpachian>
starwaster: right, but did you still attempt to build a launcher for it?
<gazpachian>
also, imagine flying that re-entry
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<blowfish>
apparently Rocket Lab's wording was deliberate and the Electron did not in fact make it into orbit
<Agathorn>
no it didn't
<Agathorn>
not even close
<blowfish>
Agathorn: have you heard anything about what/when the failure was?
<Agathorn>
no but I got the impression there wasn't any real "failure" it just underperformed
<Agathorn>
but thats just my impression from things i've read
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<blowfish>
well regardless, something didn't work as intended
<Agathorn>
From what I understand it got to about 250km but was well short of the velocity needed to orbit even at that altitude let alone the 500km they were aiming for
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<Agathorn>
they need to go back to the VAB and get more ∆v in it :)
<Agathorn>
maybe the problem was they were using KER readounts rather than MJ ones
<Agathorn>
thought they had enough but not really
<soundnfury>
hey! KER is fine, how dare you impugn its honour‽
<Agathorn>
is it now? I always preferred it but the data was just flat wrong
<soundnfury>
I've never had problems with it, except of course that it underestimates Atlases, but so does MJ
<soundnfury>
for everything else, its numbers always match the ones I get from konrad, so I'm pretty sure it's accurate
<Agathorn>
I'm dreading having to deal with stage and a half systems like Atlas in my game
<soundnfury>
heh
<Agathorn>
I have some ideas but i'll burn that bridge later
<soundnfury>
No. The bridge is too well guarded. </bratac>
<Agathorn>
:D
<hattivat>
apparently KSP 1.3 is out
<Agathorn>
damnit
<hattivat>
yeah
* xShadowx
stays 1.2.2
<hattivat>
but it seems mostly focused on localization, so maybe it won't be that bad
<hattivat>
(they added Japanese, Russian, Chinese, and Spanish)
<xShadowx>
no canadian?
<hattivat>
eh, no
* xShadowx
adds 'eh' to end of every sentence and releases it as canadian language pack
<JPLRepo>
KSP 1.3 has been released.
<Agathorn>
yes already said :)
<xShadowx>
JPLRepo: uhm.....just a weeeeeee bit late buddy
<Agathorn>
9 lines late
<xShadowx>
and he tol every chan im in cept kspmodders, wonder if thats a hint to something :P
<Agathorn>
no one cares about modders
<JPLRepo>
No that's because I don't like that channel.
<xShadowx>
:)
<Agathorn>
don't blame you
<soundnfury>
JPLRepo: good choice
<Agathorn>
I refuse to go into it
<xShadowx>
im only in it to save poor noobs from silverfox & greys
<JPLRepo>
stick to #kspmodding and talk about modding.
* xShadowx
gives JPLRepo a cookie for the attempt
<JPLRepo>
Yep the response in there is to be expected.
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<Starwaster>
gazpachian: the 20kton? It collapsed on the pavement :P
<Starwaster>
also... 1.3? well crap I guess I better get started
<Starwaster>
is #kspmodding still a thing? Everytime I go in there, there's just a bunch of juvenile chatter...
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<taniwha>
Starwaster: you're confusing kspmodding with kspmodders
<taniwha>
modding is ok, modders is the juves
<Starwaster>
well I'll try it and see but if I see toilet humor then I'm going to have to come looking for you!