<Agathorn>
CobaltWolf: I don't know if it is just me, or that angle..but that thing looks like darth vader
<Agathorn>
or maybe more dark helmet
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<CobaltWolf>
Agathorn: haha maybe
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<taniwha>
soundnfury: note that just because something may not be morally wrong doesn't make it a good idea (ie, don't get me wrong:)
<Agathorn>
if someoen wants to eat out a giraffe who am I to judge?
<soundnfury>
taniwha: I still don't understand what you're trying to say
<Agathorn>
doesn't affect me in any way
<taniwha>
soundnfury: I guess don't worry about it. it was a common expression a few decades ago (probably in Australia)
<taniwha>
I guess the expression does imply morally wrong, but I never took that literally and so I'm not sure how to express my actual meaning
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<soundnfury>
taniwha: I'm familiar with the concept of something being "just wrong", in what I think is the sense you're using, I just don't see how it applies to that xkcd
<soundnfury>
(as in 'a thing that should not be'. Like, I'd say the Fairey Gannet is "just wrong". Also why, why, for goddess' sake why.)
<xShadowx>
im starting to really dislike society o.O
<soundnfury>
xShadowx: whaddaya mean *starting*?
<soundnfury>
;)
<Starwaster>
society is really just people just like you interacting
<xShadowx>
soundnfury: i only disliked before, really dislike now :P
<gazpachian>
starwaster: I for one remain consistent in my dislike for society by also hating myself!
<taniwha>
I don't hate myself, but I can't say I like society
<xShadowx>
Starwaster: uhm no, 'people like me' wouldnt go 'mars is a waste of time, its just another rock, what we really need is more military funding so terrorists quit killing our country"
<taniwha>
xShadowx: go to Mars and let the terrorists have Earth? :)
* xShadowx
agrees
<xShadowx>
see? sanity :D
<xShadowx>
taniwha: oh i wondered, aside from unity, do you know any other game engines? as in how to use, not exist :)
<xShadowx>
too hot out ;/
<soundnfury>
xShadowx: I've got a great game engine... it's called gcc. (It can also do other things.) :P
<soundnfury>
Starwaster: society isn't people like me; society is full of neurotypicals. If they were like me, things would be run _very_ differently ;)
Majiir is now known as Snoozee
* stratochief|away
thanks Buddha society is not filled with clones of him, or clones of soundnfury
<stratochief|away>
as a socialist leaning person, I don't mind the distribution of people, neurotypical or whatever. it is the distribution of wealth I can't abide
stratochief|away is now known as stratosleep
<stratosleep>
set your watches, NK should show up ~10 minutes from now :P
<Qboid>
stratosleep: Theysen left a message for you in #RO [22.05.2017 12:45:31]: "no this one http://imgur.com/h5VoIFx"
<soundnfury>
stratosleep: for once I shall refrain from explaining why you're wrong in your leaning
<soundnfury>
(I'm fairly sure we've been over it before)
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<soundnfury>
aaaaaaaaaand you're wrong about NK :P
<stratosleep>
soundnfury: yes, we've spoken past each other before. ultimaitely, I think we've have to spend ~a semester stating our individual believes/assumptions about human natures and basic economics, and digging up evidence to explain our beliefs. then we'd still disagree, but then we'd be at step 0.95 :P
<stratosleep>
but at least we'd have a more complete model/understanding of a very different view on hand
<soundnfury>
heh
<soundnfury>
what's important is that we respect each other even though we each know the other is completely wrong about everything :)
<stratosleep>
not Everything. just human nature, economics, and the way in which to solve the overlap of those two things :)
<UmbralRaptor>
soundnfury: reminder: means-testing is set up such that much to all of that "free stuff" is unavailable, and what is is such a huge hassle, that it may not be worthwhile.
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<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: um, wat?
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<soundnfury>
I don't recall talking about "free stuff", and I'm _definitely_ trying to _not_ have a political argument tonight
<soundnfury>
especially as it's 4am and I have work in the morning
<UmbralRaptor>
You come across as the sort who wants to end TANF, SNAP, FHA, Medicaid, etc.
<stratosleep>
gotta love the Florida welfare recipient drug testing program that found lower rates of drug use in the tested population than in the rest of the population. money well spent :P
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: I mean, I _do_ want to end many of those, but probably not for the reasons you think.
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<UmbralRaptor>
And if you suggest replacing them with tax credits (or just using the savings to lower the top tax bracket or increase the mortgage deduction)…
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: you apparently have a caricature in your head, that doesn't accurately model my views.
<stratosleep>
soundnfury: to avoid the poltical argument, could you please remind me of the 1-2 word description that is closest to your political/economic view? was it anarcho-capitalism or syndicalism?
<soundnfury>
stratosleep: anarcho-capitalism.
<stratosleep>
I'd call myself a democratic socialist
<stratosleep>
thankee.
<soundnfury>
As espoused by David D. Friedman.
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<UmbralRaptor>
The above is describing to a low resolution currently considered legislation.
<stratosleep>
UmbralRaptor: just let the corporations and Kochs' write and vote on the legislation and supreme court directly, I say /s
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: I'd just like to point out that *I am not a conservative or a Republican*. And your enemy is not automatically my friend (Maxim 29 applies ;)
<stratosleep>
UmbralRaptor: what state are you in again? Louisiana? Kentucky?
<soundnfury>
and now I really must into sleep
<stratosleep>
soundnfury: christ, what time is it there? like ~4-5 am?
<soundnfury>
4am, yeah
<UmbralRaptor>
stratosleep: Missouri
<stratosleep>
man, I haven't been awake until 4am for years
<soundnfury>
I made the bad decision recently to re-read Worm...
<stratosleep>
UmbralRaptor: I was looking at a US map, and that was my new conclusion :)
NathanKell|AWAY is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: stratochief left a message for you in #RO [23.05.2017 23:02:49]: "so, opinions on an RO release now? feel free to release tonight. If not, I'm thinking of one tomorrow"
* UmbralRaptor
was last up that late, uh, in the past week?
<UmbralRaptor>
\o
<stratosleep>
heyy, we're both on at that same time. although I'm already ~10 minutes into my sleep drugs kicking in
<Pap>
lol
<UmbralRaptor>
hrm
<NathanKell>
sorry, got home real late
<NathanKell>
Got some good stuff done today though
<stratosleep>
soundnfury: what book is that. googling "Book worm" was not very useful
<NathanKell>
Apart from Squad being Squadlike
<soundnfury>
stratosleep: before I give you the link, I must first warn you
<NathanKell>
Pap: Sorry, didn't have a chance yet to get my thoughts written out
<UmbralRaptor>
blarg, computer won't boot.
<Pap>
no problem NathanKell, it'll happen when it happens
<NathanKell>
stratosleep: per github, I'm 10000% onboard with an RO release. Let me know if you need anything
<NathanKell>
I'm unlikely to have time tonight however due to getting home so late
<soundnfury>
stratosleep: You've heard about TVTropes, how it devours your soul, you go to read one page and suddenly where did your day go?
<stratosleep>
soundnfury: indeed
<NathanKell>
so the Civ2 of webpages
<Pap>
NathanKell: I noticed that you said you modded Civ2 yesterday, scenario design I am assuming?
<stratosleep>
NathanKell: yeah, no worry. I'll probably do a release mid-day tomorrow, depending on how long my 11am meeting goes, it may be around when you're (possibly) around for lunch
<soundnfury>
well, Worm is... if you start reading it, wait, where did your month go?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Units and tech tree
<Agathorn>
well I have a 99% working scrollablek grid view now :D
<NathanKell>
and governments, such that one could
<Pap>
Gotcha
<stratosleep>
I just need to test with the newly released FAR, see if I can quick-review any outstanding RO PRs
<NathanKell>
\o/
<Pap>
I made a Multiplayer Gigamap version of 2194 Days of War
<NathanKell>
oooh, awesome!
<Agathorn>
now if I can just figure out how an index goes from 11 to -12 in one loop... :p
<Agathorn>
hey NathanKell
<NathanKell>
heya
<soundnfury>
stratosleep: so with that warning *firmly* in mind, here's the link: https://parahumans.wordpress.com/ ... and don't start on it until *after* you've cut an RO release :P
<soundnfury>
actually, before I sleep, I had an idea I wanted to run past you guys
<NathanKell>
ya?
<soundnfury>
it's a way to run a competitive multiplayer campaign in KSP, without having to get DMP to work
<soundnfury>
what happens is, the rewards for any "first-ish" contract (including records like crew count) are split into two parts
<NathanKell>
ah, the actual first by date, and then just to do it?
<Agathorn>
What do you all think of dragging a slider to change pages versus buttons for next and previous page
<soundnfury>
and if you complete it, you get the first part. Then, once everyone else's game date is past the date you did it, if you were still first, you get the second part
<soundnfury>
that way you don't have to wait for other players to catch up unless you need the money for something
<CobaltWolf>
NathanKell: ^ my takes on a Porkjet Mk1-2
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Scroll wheel is love
<soundnfury>
which means that people in different timezones etc. can be in the same game
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: even on a horizontal?
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: plus not everyone has a scroll wheel :)
<NathanKell>
ah
<soundnfury>
(thus avoiding all the scheduling pain that killed GFL. Damn, I miss GFL.)
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: If you miss it, try to keep it alive! :)
<Agathorn>
sec let me make a qwuick video
<NathanKell>
Hopefully you're not alone! (I mean, I miss it too, but I dun got busy)
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: I would, but I'm bad at herding cats and my computer can't stream :(
<NathanKell>
Cat-herding is an overlooked skill, yes, but it mostly ends up being "do half the thing, and eventually that will motivate everyone else to try to do the other half" ;)
<soundnfury>
however, at some point I may fix the latter, since I totally can afford to
<soundnfury>
and then, if I also have managed to implement above 'multiplayer' mod, I think a competitive RP-0 thing with the players all streaming / videoing their stuff would be fun
<Agathorn>
The idea here is that unlikc a normal scroll pane, the widget has discrete pages. Currently you swap pages by dragging the slider which has discrete stops one for each page
<soundnfury>
only worry is that if a player falls behind, with my design it's really hard for them to catch up. Any ideas how to fix?
<Agathorn>
I know its a little hard to tell when evey item in the grid is the same
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: scroll wheel sounds appropriate, so long as it's not the only way to do it
<Pap>
I like that look Agathorn I would just say (looks like you are doing this) but make the new page "click" into place
<soundnfury>
(harris has some... idiosyncratic use of the scroll wheel in its interface)
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Since that would take care of scheduling, I might just take part. But, uh, don't quote me :]
<soundnfury>
hehe
<Agathorn>
scroll wheel is just a binding and not really relevant either way to be honest.. I personally think a scroll wheel on a horizontal is confusing but I can map it easy enough.. question is if you DONT have a scroll wheel which is better. Draggable slider that "csteps" at each page, or buttons to go back and forward
<Pap>
oh, NathanKell I floated the Assembly line idea past rsparky today, didn't go so well
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: I'd be lying if I said I didn't relish the chance to have a RO-off against you
<soundnfury>
Pap: I have some notes somewhere on an assembly line idea I had, I'll dig 'em out
<NathanKell>
And how to fix would be...gamy, but you could offer monthly (yearly?) money handouts inversely proportional to reputation
<Agathorn>
Pa;p not sure what you mean? It does "click" into place.. iow the slider isn't free. It stops at a discreete step for each page..though in this there are only two pages :)
<NathanKell>
well, maybe not rep
<NathanKell>
because that's gameable
<NathanKell>
Pap: Ah?
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: But you get the idea, some kind of handicap
<NathanKell>
OOOH
<NathanKell>
Even more gamey: Once you get a first, you have to not get the next one
<Pap>
Agathorn: That is exactly what I meant
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: just make it so that the farther in the lead you are, the more people expect of you
<NathanKell>
Even if you beat everyone else, you only get half the money.
<NathanKell>
(and rep)
<Pap>
NathanKell: he just said that it sounds like a lot of work and might be beyond him at this point
<Agathorn>
so people behind would have lower expectations and thus get more gain from completions, while the leader would get less
<NathanKell>
Pap: That's entirely fair, and far better than "sounds bad/dumb" :]
<NathanKell>
Yeah, a Punish The Lazy thing would work too soundnfury: your funds/rep decay based on an exponent
<NathanKell>
so the better you do the more they decay
<Agathorn>
the assembly line thing is really only an issue with proc parts tbh
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Nope, not at all
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: After all, we decide to go to the moon and to do the other things, not because they are easy, but because those damned Russkies are beating us!
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: The point is to encourage reuse
<Agathorn>
in rsparky's world where every tank size is a discrete part, then wouldn't tech unlocks already handle it?
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: and to estimate how many of a thing you will need
<Agathorn>
oh well I thought you were mainly concerned with tooling costs
<Agathorn>
IE opening that first new line
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Setting up a Centaur line at high production means you probably can't afford to also set up an Agena line and an Able line and a Blok D line
<NathanKell>
Blok E, too.
<NathanKell>
It's not just opening the line but its production rate
<Pap>
NathanKell: in RO, am I still trying to get at about 45 degrees at 10,000 m?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Nope. 45 degrees at anywhere from 700-1200m/s, depending on LV
<NathanKell>
altitude matters not
<Agathorn>
wiki line is relevant
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: personally I care more about the tooling costs side, but I've been trying to come up with an approach that covers both. Unsuccessfully so far :/
<Agathorn>
don't have it though
<NathanKell>
Heck for something very high TWR, even 500
<Pap>
ok, higher TWR, flatter trajectory?
<Pap>
ok
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
Like, something with 1.5G of liftoff SLT and burn time of ~2min and 10+G burnout, you want to be at 45 by like 500m/s
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: have you any particular Thor in mind? ;)
<NathanKell>
It's how I get to orbit with A-4 parts :)
<soundnfury>
that too
<Pap>
lol
<Agathorn>
hmm..no reason I couldn't make this slider be vertical actually
<NathanKell>
Naw, Thor has ~1.2 SLT if you have enough upper
<NathanKell>
but 14+G burnout
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: long tank thor maybe
<soundnfury>
if you only have the 40t launch pad, it's very, uh, 'sprightly'
<NathanKell>
Thor-Ablestar even
<NathanKell>
Oh, yeah
<NathanKell>
if you're at 40t total with an LR79...
<NathanKell>
that would do it
<NathanKell>
But Thor alone is more than 40t
<NathanKell>
It's 50t all up with no upper
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<soundnfury>
I generally try to do as much as possible with a 'short tank thor' at 40t
<soundnfury>
even if that's just so I have things I can launch from a second pad after upgrading the first one
<NathanKell>
Ah, I stick with the RD-103 until a pad upgrade
<NathanKell>
oh, pap, stratoactualsleep, we need to make a list of all the savebreaking stuff we need to do at once
<NathanKell>
like adding more building tiers, redoing the tree, etc
<Agathorn>
ok i'm going with buttons that point up and down to give it a vertical feel that will map better with a mousewheel
<Pap>
Is adding more building tiers something in the works?
<NathanKell>
Yes, absolutely. That's most of why I added support for that in stock (well, did the little bits that were needed and had Sarbles write the plugin)
<NathanKell>
The pad should really be more like 5-6 levels, same with the VAB
<NathanKell>
and the SPH and runway need their own track
<Pap>
Very cool
<NathanKell>
It should be something like 20t, 50t, 300t, 600t, 1000t, 3000t, unlimited (just off the cuff)
<NathanKell>
err, 20t, 60t
<NathanKell>
Maybe even 20, 60, 150, 300
<NathanKell>
but that really penalizes the historical Soviet playthrough
<Pap>
Hard to launch an R-7 like that
<NathanKell>
exactly, you have to go all the way to the 300t tier
<NathanKell>
also need to have KCT put pads out of action while upgrading, same with VABs :D
<soundnfury>
right, this time I'm *really* going to sleep, I *swear*.
<NathanKell>
is Magico still involved?
<NathanKell>
good luck :P
<NathanKell>
see you in 10 minutes
<soundnfury>
...
<NathanKell>
:P :P
<soundnfury>
thank you for having faith in me :P
<Agathorn>
Magico is around yeah
<Pap>
I haven't seen him on here at all, but he streams his development about once a month
<NathanKell>
Buddy I work with Mike. I am utterly inured to failing at sleep.
<Agathorn>
I do'nt think he ever came to this chan in the past
<Agathorn>
but hes still active on the forums
<NathanKell>
Pap: Awesome! Then we can request that, if he hasn't already added it :)
<Agathorn>
he even gave KRASH a PR for TestFlight compat
<NathanKell>
\o/
<Agathorn>
since KCT doesn't do sims anymore
<NathanKell>
Oh dang he really did strip that?
<Agathorn>
yeah :(
<NathanKell>
...
<Pap>
He just made a new mod called BoneYards
<Agathorn>
Scrapyard
<Pap>
It has extensive part tracking for reusability
<Pap>
Scrapyard, thats it
<Agathorn>
weird..one of my buttons isn't getting any pointer events
<NathanKell>
ah, neat
<Pap>
I just want to once again say thank you Agathorn, I have executed a launch and transfer burn for a Venus flyby and your H-1 and Agena engines performed without fail
<Agathorn>
well because Agena
<NathanKell>
And H-1 is pretty reliable too :]
<NathanKell>
Gotta nomz, back later o/
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AFK
<Agathorn>
yeah I don't know the H-1 but the agena is a beast workhorse
<Agathorn>
that thing will take you through the gates of hell and back without a scratch
<Pap>
Yeah, I love that damn engine
<xShadowx>
aw i return just as he left
<Agathorn>
oh yeah I like the buttons a lot better
<Agathorn>
ok i'm happy with that.. still a couple edge cases to deal with such as not letting you page beyond the number of pages, and probably disabling the next/prev page buttons when there isn't oine to go to, but overall its solid enough to stick ia pin in it
<Agathorn>
Can that be correct? The X-405 is 191kg
<Agathorn>
guess accuracy doesn't really matter right now anyway
<xShadowx>
a monumental event has happened today
<Pap>
Dry mass of Able stage is 429 kg
<xShadowx>
i got time that i can play ksp :D
<Pap>
But that was the AJ10-40
<Pap>
Cannot find mass on the -37
<NathanKell>
It should be in the Vanguard Engineering Summary, no?
<Agathorn>
Pap I'm looking at the Delta A on Vanguard 2nd stage. Dry mass of 694kg but I couldn't find the data on the AJ10-37 so IO stole the mass from RO :)
<Agathorn>
Was just noting that a mass of 84kg is sginificantly lighter than that of the first stage's X-405
<Agathorn>
then agaion it also has a lot less thrust so yeah
<NathanKell>
AJ10-37 should be quite light indeed
<NathanKell>
A cursory look at Vanguard An Engineering Summary says they only report stage dry/wet/burnout mass, not engine alone
<Pap>
Yep, looking at it as well, 386 lb
<Pap>
Well, it is actually listing as the Propulsion system weight (excluding Martin components) WTF does that mean?
<xShadowx>
i leave tabs open more than i bookmark.....im horrible :(
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: i finally got a fewmin to play, got to orbit, deployed solar panels, and during deployment a hinge broke off....i blame you
<Pap>
Alright all, I have gotten my science from Venus and now I am off to bed
<xShadowx>
dream about that mars colony yer makin tomorrow :)
<blowfish>
huh, never realized the Centaur had HTP driving the boost pumps
<blowfish>
(and I prepetually forget that the boost pumps even existed)
<blowfish>
maybe that's changed on newer iterations
<NathanKell>
Pap: Some thoughts before you go:
<NathanKell>
Split supersonic flight? Early mark of Avon and J57. Maybe stick with circular intakes. Rest in Sup II.
<NathanKell>
Have A-4 engine in a 1pt engine node, guidance in a 1pt guidance node. Maybe put XASR-1 there.
<NathanKell>
2pt node for RD-100 and the Navaho Phase I/II stuff
<NathanKell>
3pt node for Early Solids - Sergeant, Baby Sergeant, GCR kick motor. Put Algol and Altair in Basic Solids.
<NathanKell>
X-405*, RD-103, NAA75 go in next rocketry node. AJ10-27 too.
<NathanKell>
next have the alcohol LR89 (and other Navaho stuff too) and the RD-103M, and the Hydyne NAA75-110. Stick the AJ10-37 there. Or maybe X-405 here*
<NathanKell>
Split Basic Orbital into two nodes. First-gen LR79/89 and RD-107/8 prototypes, some AJ10s. Second node has regular LR79/89, Luna-era RD-107/8, RD-0105.
<xShadowx>
fast typer~ (jk)
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<egg|df|egg>
!wpn NathanKell|TWITCH
* Qboid
gives NathanKell|TWITCH a diastolic operator which strongly resembles a †
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<acc>
hullu
<Theysen>
morning acc
<acc>
hey Theysen
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<Theysen>
if any little Windows 10 update wouldn't screw my pc, that'd be nice. thanks.
<Theysen>
it's common habit for me needing to reinstall my graphics driver and audio drivers after any win update FOR WHATEVER REASON
<acc>
still win7 <3
<acc>
won't update until win7 gets no more security updates
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<Theysen>
good idea
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<Pap>
Theysen: this most recent Windows 10 update borked by graphics in KSP I had a bright "true blue" sky at all times with weird graphical glitches. I had to remove RSSVE and EVE because I haven't tried updating my graphics card yet
<xShadowx>
update gfx drivers before card :)
<Pap>
sorry, that is what I meant, the driver
<Pap>
I am downloading it now
stratoactualsleep is now known as stratochief
<stratochief>
Damn, Mars is cool. Radiowave detectors could detect reservoirs of liquid water up to a km below the surface. So, crewed rovers or balloon'd mobile probes could search far and wide for geothermally heated reserves.
<Pap>
Anything like that going to be included on Mars 2020?
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<CobaltWolf>
OK, so, here's the baseline WIP texture for the Mk1-2
<xShadowx>
the bits of grey look better i think, but also seem more like a 'worn' look aside from the fact only some plates use it
<CobaltWolf>
like the paint is very specifically worn completely off those two panesl
<CobaltWolf>
?
<xShadowx>
exactly
<CobaltWolf>
well that's not good haha
<xShadowx>
if it was more randomly applied in areas itd make a nice worn look :D
<CobaltWolf>
K
<CobaltWolf>
I think I'm just sticking with the white one haha
<stratochief>
Pap: Mars 2020 will just have a solid electrolysis thing, which will make O2 and CO at high energy cost. at least it is something
<Pap>
stratochief: interesting
<Pap>
stratochief: did you see the note from NathanKell|AWAY about identifying save breaking changes that will be included in the next release of RP-0?
<stratochief>
the experment is called MOXIE. it is the absolute bare minimum one can do if they are considering humans to Mars
<stratochief>
Pap: yeah, but I ain't got time for that :P
<stratochief>
my "to do" queue is too long already, I'm not even going to pretend I'm adding things to the end
<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: the grey panel makes it look even more as if it is wearing a mask :P
<stratochief>
Pap: what would he want to chance about buildings that would be save-breaking?
<xShadowx>
didnt he say somethin about more teirs of buildings ...
<Pap>
stratochief: he wants to increase the number of levels of the building upgrades
* xShadowx
should read backlog more
<Pap>
He said he built the functioanlity of it into KSP specifically for that reson
* xShadowx
is the ninja for once
<Pap>
lol xShadowx
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief: We were considering in the scond phase, where we actually implement balance tweaks and the engine mesh switching and stuff, naming the Mk1-2 the Raccoon and the Mk1 the Skunk
<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: lol
<stratochief>
Pap: ahh. wouldn't that require new models for the middle tier buildings?
<Pap>
That is a good question stratochief I didn't think of that and he may not care for the looks of it, but more for the functionality, you'd have to ask him
<stratochief>
Zubrin on bringing goats to Mars: "Be that as it may, I’m city born, but have lived the more recent portion of my life in a rural area. I’ve seen what goats can do. Don’t let one near your Kevlar dome. He’ll eat it."
<rsparkyc>
it's sad that making a mod code change and testing it is faster than making a config change and testing it
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: ha! welcome to my life as a KSP-RO contributor for ~3 years now :)
<stratochief>
I started with configs, then realized that they took the bulk of the time and work for RO and RP-0, so I stayed there
<rsparkyc>
lol, not so much the writing time, just waiting for MM to rebuild it's cache
<stratochief>
yep, that is a large amount of time. that is why RealPlume and Scatterer config stuff is more fullfilling to fiddle with, because you can change them 'on the fly' without a restart
<stratochief>
although fixing/creating configs can be pretty fucky, considering how many different layers of MM patches lots of RO stuff has now
<rsparkyc>
yep
<rsparkyc>
i gotta figure out why the new release of FAR is throwing exceptions
<rsparkyc>
the last build i had didn't
<stratochief>
I'm just booting up KSP with the new FAR, so I can confirm if I see those exceptions. did they occur in the VAB, or from the flight scene? also, which log?
<rsparkyc>
VAB
<rsparkyc>
Player.log
<stratochief>
hmm, does that log have a different name in windows, linux, mac? I see output_log.txt , KSP.log
<rsparkyc>
i had to use reflection to call ModularEngieConfigs' maxThrust variable
<rsparkyc>
i also need to update minThrust, but there's no method to do that
<Pap>
I made a PR in RP-0#657 that demonstrates a little bit of what the PARTUPGRADE system can be used for stratochief
<Qboid>
[#657] title: Created PARTUPGRADES for the RF Fuel Tank Types | In reference to #523 I decided to create very simple PARTUPGRADES to show up in the Tech Tree for each of the different types of fuel tanks made available by RealFuels.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/657
<stratochief>
Pap: handy, nice.
<Pap>
I was looking through the issues and figured out that I could fix one of them!
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: is it the log that starts with "[LOG 10:23:25.258] ******* Log Initiated for Kerbal Space Program - 1.2.2.1622 (WindowsPlayer x64) *******" (obviously different from mac or linux)
<rsparkyc>
mine doesn't have timestamps
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: for me, that is the KSP.log, while the other one doesn't update when I boot, play, then close the game. I didn't see "ArithmeticException: NAN" anywhere in that log
<rsparkyc>
i think i got it when i changed a procedural tank size
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: ahh. I don't have procedural parts in that install. I'll try that again later
<rsparkyc>
ok
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: are you using Prcedural Parts, v1.2.9 from Starwaster?
<stratochief>
I think there is a different one (#kspmodders?) but I have a vague, less positive feeling about that one. i don't frequent either.
<xShadowx>
the latter is a cesspool that has nothing to do with ksp :|
<CobaltWolf>
yeah
<xShadowx>
we deny its existence
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: the CKAN metadata says ProcParts 1.2.10 is for KSP 2.2.1, which may be inaccurate, or it could mean it is for the not yet released next KSP update.
<stratochief>
to me, it looks like dislexia :P
<xShadowx>
future proofing der
<xShadowx>
:)
<rsparkyc>
i haven't messed with CKAN
<Pap>
ELI5: Why should engines be split into Croygenics, Solids and Staged Combustion and not Croygenics, Hypergolics and Solids? Is it the same thing?
<stratochief>
there are 2 components to each engine from that category view; fuel type and engine cycle. solids only have one 'engine cycle', although they could break into Monolithic and Segemented mid-tree
<stratochief>
IIRC, hypergolics, kerosene, hydrolox could be burned using the staged combustion cycle. that is a more complicated engine cycle, used by the NK-15 or -33 soviet engine, and also possibly by some of the engines on the Proton
<stratochief>
liquid oxygen is only mildly cryogenic, so cryogenic engine generally refers to hydrogen burning (hydrolox) ?
<stratochief>
IMO, engines would break down by fuel, with later nodes down a line of a fuel would give you engines with more complex/difficult cycles. but some fuel lines could be combined I suppose, for brevity
<Pap>
How broken out would you think the fuels should be, 3 or 4 different types? Or more?
<rsparkyc>
let me get some good reproducible steps for you later before you do that
<rsparkyc>
right now i'm trying to make EMR work properly with ModuleEngineConfigs
<rsparkyc>
the J-2 engines weren't throttleable the way that KSP normally handles throttle, but our configs gave them min and max thrust values
<rsparkyc>
really, the thrust change came from changing the mixture ratio
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: indeed. gotcha.
<rsparkyc>
right now the bug is when you throttle down an engine with a low EMR, the thrust rating goes over 100%, instead of staying at 100%
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<stratochief|meeting>
rsparkyc: strange. what about making minimum like 1000, and maximum 1000.1 or something? maybe it is unhappy because having them the same makes the assumptions it uses to LERP fail?
<rsparkyc>
i just think that i'm not setting some value properly somewhere. As you change EMR, i'm setting new min and maxes
<Agathorn>
Not sure if this is something to do with 1.2?
<Agathorn>
Because never had any problems in the past with fractional costs
<Rokker>
stratochief: brb, gonna pour myself a drink
<Agathorn>
heh
<Agathorn>
This morning I feel le=ike I got wasted last night except I didn't
<Agathorn>
hangover without the hang isn't cool
<stratochief>
Agathorn: shorted yourself on sleep?
<Agathorn>
not intentionally
<Agathorn>
I have... issues :(
<Agathorn>
and last night was a rough night
<Agathorn>
doesn't help that the sun is up at like 5am now either
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<Rokker>
TheKosmonaut: wait
<Rokker>
TheKosmonaut: does the shake come with a commodore perry sticker
<Rokker>
because my god thats grorious if it does
<Rokker>
szyzyg: o/
<stratochief>
Agathorn: self-arguing? spontanous yoddling syndrome? what kind of issues?
<stratochief>
yeah, I also hate the sun. I wear an eye cover to block out the sun, for I am not a true scotsman
<Agathorn>
screwed up mental issues. I get.. I don't even know what..something like panic attacks but not quite. Basically I wake up randomly and then will be afraid, actually afraid, to go back to sleep
<Agathorn>
it usually takes me a half hour or an hour to get back to sleep.. I hve to try and fool myself
<stratochief>
Agathorn: sounds like Sleep Apnia. have you seen a doctor/been diagnosed? my brother had a particularly bad case of that while camping last week. the nature bits inflamed his allergies, making it particularly bad
<Agathorn>
I do have sleep apnia but thats different..i'm being treated for that. Got the Darth Vader mask
<Agathorn>
buthat actually contributes to the other problem in a way
<Agathorn>
sometimes I wake up and the mask freaks me out
<stratochief>
yeah, fair enough. sleeping with scuba gear would also freak me out
<Agathorn>
heh scuba gear is less claustraphobic in my opnion
<Agathorn>
at least warm water gear
<Agathorn>
I have to keep my CPAP mask pretty tight to avoid annoying noises that bother me
<Rokker>
stratochief: ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my head hurts a bit
<stratochief>
Rokker: try adding more alcohol. it will also make your random opinions more valid as well
<Rokker>
stratochief: :D
<stratochief>
Agathorn: have you tried less tight, but wear earplugs? during the spring/summer I sometimes sleep with earplugs, because I like the breeze of an open window but traffic noise wakes me up
<Rokker>
stratochief: s/random/correct
<Qboid>
Rokker thinks stratochief meant to say: Rokker: try adding more alcohol. it will also make your correct opinions more valid as well
<Agathorn>
yep I tried ear plugs recently but the silence freaked me out lol
<Agathorn>
I really need to go see a psychiatrist I think to be honest
<Agathorn>
I just keep putting it off
<Rokker>
Agathorn: i just play podcasts
<Rokker>
boring ones
<stratochief>
lol. what about... white noise to cancel out your darth vader machine? or, cut your earplugs in half?
<Rokker>
or march of the penguins
<Rokker>
Agathorn: watch march of the penguins
<Agathorn>
Yeah I have some sound tracks on my iPad I play
<Rokker>
let morgan freeman put you to sleep
<Agathorn>
but if the mask gets crooked I still hear it because life sucks
<Agathorn>
i use the sound mostlty to hide the sound of the machine
<Agathorn>
though with summer here now i'll be using fans/AC more often which will block it out
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] stratochief66 pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/vHYVA
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master c70619f stratochief66: Merge pull request #1640 from pap1723/patch-6...
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<Agathorn>
direction finding?
<egg>
stratochief: yes
<egg>
was playing some df yesterday, forgot to switch to zzz
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<rsparkyc>
i haven't heard about df in years...
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<leudaimon>
o/ Pap
<leudaimon>
you there?
<Pap>
Hi leudaimon
<Pap>
Hven't seen you in a little bit
<leudaimon>
yeah, I'm pretty busy
<leudaimon>
saw your comment on github
<leudaimon>
couldn't the techtree placement be added in the RO engine configs files?
<leudaimon>
lol ninjaed by NathanKell in the github repo
<Pap>
yes, it could and that would make the most sense, but here is what will happen...
<leudaimon>
he offered an easier solution apparently
<Pap>
They will show up on the tree no matter whether you have a mod that includes that engine or not
<Pap>
Ah, I should read his
<leudaimon>
hm, I see... I think his solution might have this issue also
<Pap>
Yes, just read and commented, his issue will have the same issue
<Agathorn>
fyi my blog at omg will be offline for a bit.. trying to restructure my website
<Pap>
You could add a bunch of NEEDS[SSTU or RealEngines or ETC] but that will require someone to figure out every single mod that offers the different engines
<Agathorn>
and it got a bit messy
<leudaimon>
yeah, pretty messy
<leudaimon>
perhaps adding just the "stock" engines?
<leudaimon>
sorry Agathorn, I was referring to the other talk
<leudaimon>
the stock ones would give a general notion of what is available when at least
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<CobaltWolf>
RO users rejoice... I'm redoing the Apollo capsule geometry...
<CobaltWolf>
T.T
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<CobaltWolf>
I looked at it today and tried not to cry then I cried a lot
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<Theysen>
hello folks
<CobaltWolf>
heyo
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<Pap>
leudaimon: we'll see what NathanKell|AWAY comes up with for those
<Pap>
Otherwise, I will start wiht my favorite mod, SSTU to include these
<leudaimon>
lol, great reply to make him invested
<leudaimon>
I never used SSTU, I usually like to tweak things in detail... besides the fact it was never so much included in RP-0. I might give it a try in my next game
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<Pap>
leudaimon: it let's you do a lot of tweaking. Not to the level of NathanKell's series on YouTube, but SSTU gives some good customization options and it looks so damn pretty
<Pap>
Please ELI5: The AJ10-190 (Shuttle OMS) has an O/F Ratio of 1.65. In the config it has the propellants listed as MMH ratio 0.4990 and MON3 ratio 0.5010. That is not a 1.65 ratio, so what am I missing?
<SirKeplan>
Pap: it might be, O/F ratio is mass, but in KSP the numbers represent volume
<SirKeplan>
on those types of engines they are often run at a roughly 1:1 volume ratio for simpler tanking design i think.
<SirKeplan>
we have a spreadsheet that does all the conversions
<Theysen>
I have a feeling everyone configuring an engine for the first time runs into that, it caught me for sure
<SirKeplan>
yeah, KSP is a bit of a pain, doing it all in volume
<Pap>
Thanks SirKeplan and Theysen
<Pap>
So when I am determining how much fuel to have in a tank for a specific engine, I should use the ratios listed in the Engine Config I am assuming?
<hattivat>
yep
<hattivat>
but there has always been a button to do it for you
<hattivat>
has that been removed?
<Pap>
No, it still exists, I am talking about a mod I am configuring
<hattivat>
well, then you should go by the stage data if available
<hattivat>
sometimes the actual amount of fuel is a bit different from the ratio for the engine
<hattivat>
to account for boiloff for example
<Pap>
Interesting, there is only tank volume for the Shuttle, so I am going to pre-load it for the player, they can modify if need be
<Pap>
Not for the ET, but for the OMS Pods and RCS
<hattivat>
with AJ10-190 it's almost certainly the same ratio for the tanks as for the engine
<hattivat>
or at least I can't think of a reason it could be different, perosnally
<Pap>
That is what I was assuming
<hattivat>
then the answer is yes, assuming that my rusty knowledge from a year ago has not been obsoleted in the meantime
<SirKeplan>
you could also take a look at other shuttles mods that have RO support and see what they did
<SirKeplan>
but it's almost certainly mean to be the same ratio.
<SirKeplan>
unless the RCS is run at a weird ratio perhaps
<stratochief>
man, I could configure a whole game (or mod) based on the cool ideas and information in "The Case For Mars". everything from fuel, to plastics industry, iron smelting, aluminum refining and PV manufacture
<stratochief>
anyway, nap time
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<Pap>
OK, now I get deeper into the Rabbit Hole...to me, the configs of the AJ10-190 we currently have are very wrong
<SirKeplan>
Pap: they are?
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<Pap>
They are configged to use MMH and MON3, but all of the source material very clearly states MMH and NTO
<leudaimon>
is there MON3 in RF?
<Pap>
According to RealFuels, MMH and NTO both have the same mass, therefore, we should use a 1.65 O/F ratio
<Pap>
yes leudaimon
<SirKeplan>
IIRC many sources call the MON3 on shuttle NTO, when it's technically not
<hattivat>
common problem in my experience
<leudaimon>
ah ok, I tohught it was like other cases in which the fuels are so similar there are no separate configs in RF
<hattivat>
I mean, not just with the shuttle, I had the same problem configuring ESA stuff
<Pap>
SirKeplan: this is coming straight from the NASA technical docs on the shuttle hosted on the science.ksc.nasa.gov
<SirKeplan>
yeah it isa bit odd...
<hattivat>
so it's probably correct, but I wouldn't bet a house on it
<SirKeplan>
is a*
<hattivat>
the difference between NTO and MON3 is miniscule
<Pap>
That is a good point, there really is ABSOLUTELY nothing in terms of gameplay that matter. Both have the same mass so there is no real issue
<Pap>
Alright, off to dinner, thanks for your help all
<hattivat>
the difference is in freezing point IIRC
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<hattivat>
Pap: according to wikipedia they don't
<SirKeplan>
is a little odd that we differentiate between MON3 and NTO, but not all the kerosenes though
<SirKeplan>
(RP-1, RG-1, T-1)
<hattivat>
I think it's largely a function of available literature
<SirKeplan>
and that synthetic one that i forgot
<SirKeplan>
syntin, that's it
<SirKeplan>
oh wait i think we do have that ingame
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<hattivat>
SirKeplan: I think we even have turpentine, for Diamant
<hattivat>
Pap: wikipedia lists NTO density as 1.44246 g/cm3, while MMH is 875 mg mL−1
<SirKeplan>
we do have a few unusual ones :)
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<hattivat>
btw the choice of units for the latter makes me want to scream
<hattivat>
who the hell chooses to do calculations in mL-1
<leudaimon>
mg/mL is the same as mg/cm3
<hattivat>
yeah, but that's mL-1
<hattivat>
that's what irks me
<leudaimon>
lol
<leudaimon>
if these values are correct, Pap|YumYum, the 1.65 ratio is working