<stratochief>
Rokker: ahh, good point. I don't recall if I've seen those parts down before, I've just seen it looking like a big tent show
<stratochief>
it would be a decent recreation, if you made the top cone more true to the Jupter's cone shape
<Rokker>
stratochief: yeah I wasn't going for recreation yet
<Rokker>
just seeing if I could make it work
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<Agathorn>
stratochief: Do you think players should be able to set any arbitrary amount of engines in a cluster with the onyl limitation being physical space? Or should the engine count be controlled by soem factors I am unaware of?
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: s/.*/Do you think I should let players be creative? Or limit their creativity?
<Qboid>
xShadowx thinks Agathorn meant to say: Do you think I should let players be creative? Or limit their creativity?
<Agathorn>
has nothing to do with creativity
<Agathorn>
has to do with reality and maybe constraints I am unware of
<Agathorn>
I'm not making KSP :)
<Agathorn>
I'm guessing heat probably plays a factor
<xShadowx>
N1 was how many engines?
<xShadowx>
30?
<xShadowx>
they fit whatever the fuck they could ;p
<Agathorn>
Think it had more nozzles than "engines"
<Agathorn>
most russian engines are multiple chambers and one pump
<xShadowx>
esp with TF prolly not the best idea but ;p
<xShadowx>
admittedly i never tried >6 cluster....kinda want to now
<rsparkyc>
hey lamont, since you're the only other mac guy i know, do you run scatterer in your RSS install?
<stratochief>
Agathorn: riocrite has some opinions on that
<stratochief>
Agathorn: maybe not a strict limitation, just a few reality based incentives against it. such as, the risk of a hard engine failure taking out the whole stage, for example
<stratochief>
integration costs of a whole whack of engines on a stage is high as well I think, the plumbing is a nightmare
<Agathorn>
I imagine you need beefier thrust assemblies too
<stratochief>
and controlling them is a headache, as seen even on the Saturn V cluster of 5, where a failure in one erroneously triggered a shutdown of another accidentally
<xShadowx>
when in doubt, use configs
<Agathorn>
thus mass would scale non-linearly
<Agathorn>
stratochief: didn't that happen because they werew wired wrong?
<xShadowx>
thats whats nice about ksp, configs everywhere ;D
<stratochief>
well, I think the 'thrust structure' would be easier with more engines, since the force is spread across more points
<soundnfury>
Pap: dunno if you've already fixed it, but Lunar Orbiter contract is buggy. It completed as soon as my probe arrived in lunar SOI.
<stratochief>
Agathorn: right. more engines, more chance of a wiring or plumbing fuckup
<Agathorn>
stratochief: I just meant it would mass more, not neccesarily be harder or easier to setup
<stratochief>
Agathorn: possible, I'm not sure either way on that point
<Agathorn>
I'm curious whjy SpaceX changed the layout of their 9 engines
<Agathorn>
only thing I've managed to find was just "manufacturing":
<stratochief>
christ, why can't I spell riocrocite's name properly? anyway, he was talking extensively about a mod he is working on where there is a trade-off for tank clustering and engine clustering. it sounded interesting and reality based
<Agathorn>
yeah i've seen some mentions of it
<stratochief>
circular symmetry is easier to build/design/work with than a rectangle? stronger?
<stratochief>
but other than those guesses, I don't really know either
<Agathorn>
probably but then why do it the grid way in the first place?
<Agathorn>
Just seems if the newer layout is easier to manufacturer, you would start with that :)
<leudaimon>
I thought it was related with the landing legs
<Agathorn>
huh hadn't seen that
<Agathorn>
but might be
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<leudaimon>
I don't remember where I heard that also
<Pap>
soundnfury: that is the first I head of that issue
<Pap>
also soundnfury I am looking at the contract and there is absolutely no way that it should have completed
<stratochief>
wildcard: principia present, or no?
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<soundnfury>
Pap: I think before I got there Orbit was ticked but Moon wasn't. So maybe it's treating those two sequentially rather than concurrently?
<soundnfury>
stratosleep: no principia here.
<soundnfury>
right, time to stop playing ksp and follow the election results
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<Probus-Hawaii>
Aloha o/
<Pap>
Thanks soundnfury, that will help to address the problem!
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<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [08.06.2017 13:36:09]: "sorry, I guess I must have *always* unlocked BC before BOR (I usually go to BC pretty quickly to get ServiceModule tanks and also the AJ10-142, since I don't usually bother with AJ10 (Mid))"
<rsparkyc>
\o
<soundnfury>
\o NathanKell
<soundnfury>
streaming tonight?
<NathanKell>
so..finally rmemebering to get [x] science
<NathanKell>
yes, soon as I get it
<NathanKell>
doesn't look like it automatically stops warp tho?
<NathanKell>
hard to say
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: there's two applaunchers, "[x] science" and "[x] science here and now"
<soundnfury>
only the latter stops warp
<rsparkyc>
it does
<rsparkyc>
yeah
<NathanKell>
coolz
<NathanKell>
ok, firing up
<rsparkyc>
hey NathanKell, i'm behind on your live streams, have you reinstalled principia?
<NathanKell>
I have not yet, I'm far enough behind leudaimon I don't feel I can afford relearning things :]
<NathanKell>
Mostly waiting for Cauchy
<NathanKell>
it fixes the serious issues so far encountered
<NathanKell>
(rotation under thrust, transform offset, inability to target bodies)
<rsparkyc>
ahh, lamont made me a build with those in it for mac
<rsparkyc>
so i'm running that now
<rsparkyc>
they're adding back body targeting?
<rsparkyc>
talking to egg|df|egg, it sounded like he removed that on purpose
<NathanKell>
ohhh you're on mac too? Huh, did not know
<rsparkyc>
i try to hide it :)
<NathanKell>
He did remove them, but said 'all my issues are done for Cauchy' and one of them was targeting
<Starwaster>
bornholio, so what's the status on your 4000 K exploding ships?
<Starwaster>
oh wait there's no such person here...
<Qboid>
[#1414] title: Body Targeting | For those of us who do not have Jebediah delusions of cowboying, the ability to target celestial bodies (and thus rely on MechJeb's relative inclination indicator and, more importantly, launch into pl... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/1414
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<rsparkyc>
oh nice
<rsparkyc>
i had to install a mod to do that
<soundnfury>
ummm, someone is attempting an XSS attack on the RIS server. And not really succeeding (I'm fairly sure Nevow should prevent any of that)
<rsparkyc>
haha, nice
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<Starwaster>
RIS?
<rsparkyc>
race into space
<Starwaster>
uhm
<rsparkyc>
the KSP multiplayer mod soundnfury built
<Starwaster>
right
<Starwaster>
no I'm just like 'uhm' as in 'uhm who would do that'
<rsparkyc>
sure....
<Starwaster>
you think it's a player or just a random attack?
<rsparkyc>
probably random, wouldn't benefit a player to do it
<rsparkyc>
plus there's like 5 of us
<Starwaster>
well this is interesting. I'm in Mun orbit... and something I clicked in the IVA resulted in my crew being RECOVERED
<Starwaster>
and it's not a revert it was a RECOVER
<Starwaster>
reversion isn't even possible anymore and I got the crew recovered dialogue
<Starwaster>
wonder it's an RPM thing?
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<Probus-Hawaii>
NathanKell|Twitch (or someone) can you link the twitch stream?
<Starwaster>
Bornholio how's your 4000 Kelvin exploding ships doing?
<Bornholio>
haven't had any more elevated temps last two loads. have held off new version of DRE just cause
<Bornholio>
Still can't keep temps down to cryo levels no matter what i try or what radiators i use at eleveated TW
Pap is now known as Pap|Sleep
<Starwaster>
uh that might need an RF update
<Bornholio>
is RF making the tanks absorb heat diff? PF and others told me it should work with Normal extendable radiators. Last load i dropped in a config to turn off the boiloff. I'll still do normal proving orbits to be sure it can cool to cryo temps.
<Probus-Hawaii>
Its great Rokker! Love it here. I wish Oklahoma had this weather.
<Rokker>
Probus-Hawaii: what island
<Probus-Hawaii>
Maui
<Probus-Hawaii>
We took a tour all the way around the island yesterday then a Luau. Skuba dived Molokini this morning.
<Rokker>
Probus-Hawaii: ive only been to Oahu and Hawaii
<Rokker>
ive heard maui is nice
<Probus-Hawaii>
Hawaii is rumbling. Had a 5.3 earthquake today.
<Probus-Hawaii>
Which did you like better Rokker?
<Rokker>
Probus-Hawaii: both are great
<Rokker>
Probus-Hawaii: Pearl Harbor is an important experience, at least imo
<Probus-Hawaii>
Definately
<Rokker>
but volcanoes natl park is dope
<Rokker>
Probus-Hawaii: prolly oahu, i guess
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<Rokker>
diamond head, pearl harbor, dole plantation
<Rokker>
lotsa cool stuff
<Starwaster>
"
<Starwaster>
Hopefully sooner rather than later because I can't live without this mod anymore."
<Starwaster>
dayum
<Probus-Hawaii>
No pressure...
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<xShadowx>
nobody forced em to goto 1.3 :)
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<Bornholio>
but ser waster, I must have my wine with my sheese, and dis mod you make is da sheese, zee only wine i can palate is de freshest of 1.3
<Bornholio>
I would point them at github and tell them to compile a fork. I'm a jerk.
<NathanKell>
!tell leudaimon you are one lucky, lucky, lucky fella. Same as last time, LV failure leads to just missing a lunar first vs you :]
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vH1q9
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 18c7385 NathanKell: RealEngines NK-9 and NK-9V
<SpecimenSpiff>
Rocket construction question: I have a sounding rocket, staging at about 16km, and it isntantly goes out of control tumble and breaks up. Am I better off trying to have spin, wings on the 2nd stage, rcs?
<NathanKell>
What's your velocity at staging?
<SpecimenSpiff>
one minute while I find out
<NathanKell>
You'll probably want fins no matter what, but make sure the first stage fins get enlarged to compensate
<NathanKell>
RCS will do nothing because you're presumably unguided ;)
<NathanKell>
Some level of spin will help, but at 16km it's fins gonna do it
<SpecimenSpiff>
first stage fins are a4. I originally had upper fins putting spin, but then I was out of control shortly after launch
<SpecimenSpiff>
aerobee, then an upper with 4 xlr11, then a rd100 launch stage
<SpecimenSpiff>
having fun with an attempt to go real high
<blowfish>
damn, actually pretty busy these days when NK is streaming almost every day
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Ah, I see. Then yeah, fins with the tiniest bit of angle to them
<NathanKell>
blowfish: :]
<blowfish>
NathanKell: I could swear your streams were later back when you were on east coast time. Seems sorta odd
<SpecimenSpiff>
Ill try that again, but when I had the aerobee fins exposed on my first attempt, the spin gave the lower stage fits and it tumbled seconds after launch
<NathanKell>
blowfish: They were, yes. I'd stream about 11:30 or midmight. That's 8:30 or 9pm here, and I stream at 7 or so instead
<NathanKell>
If I streamed after supper, nobody but west coasters could watch
<NathanKell>
also, my schedule, in absolute (GMT) terms, is at least 1-2hrs earlier than when I was on the east coast :P
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: You need to tilt them only the _slightest_ bit
<SpecimenSpiff>
Is there some way to go really really small? i was using the rotation tool with shift for a small step
<SpecimenSpiff>
doh, no snap and I can go even smaller
<NathanKell>
^
<NathanKell>
that would explain it
<NathanKell>
you want less than a degree probably
<SpecimenSpiff>
not playing for 8 months or so, I forgot so many tricks
<NathanKell>
also unless you have RO from git from the last day, you don't have roll TVC on that engine
<NathanKell>
so get from git
<SpecimenSpiff>
from master?
<NathanKell>
yeah
<SpecimenSpiff>
that will probably make a huge difference. as is right now, a few seconds after launch the nose goes slightly off, then over it goes. without spin, it stays straight up until I stage
<SpecimenSpiff>
I'm curious to see what it will get me when it flies straight though. about 4.5km/sec of dV
<SpecimenSpiff>
might do as well with aerobee, 3x aerobee, a-4
<NathanKell>
4.5km/sec total?
<NathanKell>
Yes, A-4 and even a single aerobee should probably hit 4.5km/sec
<NathanKell>
the Aerobee alone will be ~2000m/s, no?
<SpecimenSpiff>
ah, dV is reported wrong because I have it igniting before decoupler
<SpecimenSpiff>
its claiming 200m/sec for the aerobee
<SpecimenSpiff>
so probably over 6km/sec actual
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<NathanKell>
ah yeah
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vH1O4
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 8fd1716 NathanKell: Support thrust offset (for engines where some models have verniers and others don't). See especially RD-107/8. @PhineasFreak and @SirKeplan you two do the most global configs yes?
<SpecimenSpiff>
still getting a bit of precession when I stage. more rotation before stage, or bigger fins?
<NathanKell>
Tweak your fairing setup
<NathanKell>
it's possibly a collision issue on decouple
<SpecimenSpiff>
could be, I shrunk the 2nd stage a lot and even 2 xlr-11s are pushing the fairing edge now
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: real life made me miss stream, did i miss manned moon landing?
* xShadowx
clicks to watch
<NathanKell>
hahano
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vH1OD
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 3e6d9ec NathanKell: Update Netkan forum link...
<SpecimenSpiff>
interesting issue I noticed building this. if I use the actual aerobee parts, it has fuel for like 30 seconds past the rated burn duration of the engine. is that deliberate?
<NathanKell>
You're building a WAC. The parts are for the Aerobee.
<NathanKell>
(i.e. the thing with the XASR-1 engine, or the AJ10-27)
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff ^
<NathanKell>
The parts are for the 150, I think
<SpecimenSpiff>
ok then. dropping that oversize tanks gets me to 7026m/sec
<SpecimenSpiff>
and much higher twr on the final stage which should also count for something
<SpecimenSpiff>
intersting, the "warp to next morning" might be cape time, it took me to 1am in baikonur
<NathanKell>
that's...odd. It should be entirely position based
<SpecimenSpiff>
ah, its 1am utc
<SpecimenSpiff>
sun just coming up, as one would expect, I got lit up as I hit the clouds
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<SpecimenSpiff>
darn, final stage fairings clipped or something, was going nice and straight now I have a ton of precession :(
<SpecimenSpiff>
and the my aerobee agathorned
<SpecimenSpiff>
still 1.2mkm apogee
<SpecimenSpiff>
1.2mm
<SpecimenSpiff>
I was hoping to fill a 4,600km contract though. not with this rocket I guess
<xShadowx>
why does NathanKell never get agathorned on ascents?
<SpecimenSpiff>
he does quite a bit in his current career
<SpecimenSpiff>
lost his chance to win on the lunar lander because of an lr105 failuer
<xShadowx>
:|
<NathanKell>
same with the lunar orbit one
<SpecimenSpiff>
that was way more work than it should have been for a 1100km apogee, but its a neat looking rocket and good practice: http://imgur.com/a/B6qkQ
<SpecimenSpiff>
now to figure out how to get 4x higher...
<TheKosmonaut>
Somehow I managed to win a trade war against the Roman Empire as a Celtic tribe.
<TheKosmonaut>
Feelsgoodman.png
<TheKosmonaut>
s/trade war/trade dispute
<Qboid>
TheKosmonaut meant to say: Somehow I managed to win a trade dispute against the Roman Empire as a Celtic tribe.
<TheKosmonaut>
Which led into me blockading them along France and eventually down to Gibraltar
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<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Coolz! It does look cool
<NathanKell>
Very 1956 US!
<NathanKell>
(or even 1953)
<SpecimenSpiff>
Totally forgot everything about far analysis. Does this look like it will fly? http://imgur.com/R4XAhIV
<SpecimenSpiff>
answer: briefly. very briefly
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<egg|df|egg>
!wpn NathanKell
* Qboid
gives NathanKell an inductive fibre
<egg|df|egg>
NathanKell: mind you, body targeting has very minimalist support (principia#1432)
<Qboid>
[#1432] title: Celestial targeting | Hidden away in the KSP features section of the beach towel since it's there only for third-party compatibility and we plan to handle some of the features that require it ourselves eventually. | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1432
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vH1G7
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master b04742d NathanKell: Revert "Support thrust offset (for engines where some models have verniers and others don't). See especially RD-107/8. @PhineasFreak and @SirKeplan you two do the most global configs yes?"...
<egg|df|egg>
!tell rsparkyc I did remove body targeting on purpose; it turns out that it's needed for third parties as discussed in principia#1414, so I added it hidden away in the "KSP features" section of our UI in principia#1432
<Qboid>
egg|df|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid>
[#1414] title: Body Targeting | For those of us who do not have Jebediah delusions of cowboying, the ability to target celestial bodies (and thus rely on MechJeb's relative inclination indicator and, more importantly, launch into pl... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1414
<Qboid>
[#1432] title: Celestial targeting | Hidden away in the KSP features section of the beach towel since it's there only for third-party compatibility and we plan to handle some of the features that require it ourselves eventually. | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1432
<NathanKell>
Que
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<egg|df|egg>
NathanKell: ?
<NathanKell>
Ah, I think I understand now
<xShadowx>
"For those of us who do not have Jebediah delusions of cowboying" whoa whoa...the doc said its a conditio not a delusion!
<egg|df|egg>
NathanKell: but I don't understand what it is that you didn't
egg|df|egg is now known as egg
* egg
was asleep, not df
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vH1ZA
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 5875d84 NathanKell: Reuse "RD-107X" from SSTU as a version of the SXT (gimbal not vernier) RD-107.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vH1Zp
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 3194ec0 NathanKell: Clone RealEngines S5.92 for a pretty RD-0105/0109.
<NathanKell>
egg: What exactly you'd done. A 'click here to target' menu hidden away, is what I think you meant. Anyway, bed. o/
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AWAY
<SpecimenSpiff>
@NathanKell, this flips into a roll right after takeoff. Any suggestions? http://imgur.com/a/HnylU
<SpecimenSpiff>
darn, too late
<NathanKell|AWAY>
SpecimenSpiff: Look at the yellow curve in the static analysis tab. You want it sloping downwards.
<NathanKell|AWAY>
also try adding some dihedral
<NathanKell|AWAY>
but I gotta go
<SpecimenSpiff>
thanks. and yeah, its late, ill work on it tomorrow
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<Sigma88>
0/
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<Theysen>
!tell Pap Hey , free time for RP-0 playtesting this weekend. Does Pap-Contracts branch of RP-0 on GitHub contain both contracts and tree? Cheers!
<Qboid>
Theysen: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Pap>
o/
<Qboid>
Pap: Theysen left a message for you in #RO [09.06.2017 11:18:04]: " Hey , free time for RP-0 playtesting this weekend. Does Pap-Contracts branch of RP-0 on GitHub contain both contracts and tree? Cheers!"
<Pap>
Hey Theysen
<Pap>
Theysen: Contracts are in the Pap-Contracts branch, but the tree is not. By then end of today, I will have a working beta test version of the tree that I will provide. I have to warn you that it will be very early beta with the costs and KCT unlock times of the nodes, but the feedback will be important on how to balance it
<Theysen>
thank you very much pap
<Pap>
Theysen: it will have almost all parts correctly placed
<Theysen>
of every mod there is!?
<Pap>
any mods in praticular that are not the most popular ones that you would want placed?
<Pap>
Placed correctly, yes, cost and entry Cost correctly, no
<Qboid>
Sigma88: Sun | mass×2.6: 5.17×10^30 kg (kilograms)
<Sigma88>
!wa mass of the sun *2.76
<Qboid>
Sigma88: Sun | mass×2.76: 5.488×10^30 kg (kilograms)
<Sigma88>
!wa 5.488×10^30 * 6.67408e-11 / (radius of the sun * 2.4) ^2
<Qboid>
Sigma88: 5.488×10^30×(6.67408×10^(-11))/(Sun | average radius×2.4)^2: 1.314×10^8/km^2 (per kilometers squared)
<Sigma88>
that doesn't make any sense
<Sigma88>
!wa mass of the sun * 2.76 * G / (radius of the sun * 2.4) ^2
<Qboid>
Sigma88: (Sun | mass×2.76 G)/(Sun | average radius×2.4)^2: G 1.988435×10^30 kg (kilograms) 9.9×10^-13/km^2 (per kilometers squared)
<xShadowx>
whatcha tryin to get
<Sigma88>
the gravity at surface of a star with 2.76 solar masses and 2.4 solar radii
<Sigma88>
and I just realized I'm not int kopernicus
<Sigma88>
>_>
<Sigma88>
sorry for the spam
<Sigma88>
:D
<xShadowx>
it wouldnt be just based off radius would it?
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<SigmaAFK>
gravity at surface is GM/r^2
<xShadowx>
i mean stars are made of gas, add more radius, you compress it more
<SigmaAFK>
gtg now, but I can explain later :)
<xShadowx>
so wouldnt density go up as radius goes up?
<xShadowx>
XD
<xShadowx>
cya
<SigmaAFK>
not necessarily
<SigmaAFK>
gas giants are less dense
<SigmaAFK>
red giants*
<SigmaAFK>
>.<
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vHMLA
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master 85622dc Pap: Updated Near Future Engine Configs...
<Starwaster>
I've long felt that the inflatable heat shield in stock had excessive mass by about 50%... but I've just done a fairly exhaustive analysis and it actually should be more like 660kg
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<Bornholio>
starwaster you comparing it to the 2016 mars lander report?
<Starwaster>
I'm calculating the mass of the torii + TPS outer fabric + structural mass
<Starwaster>
structural mass I'm just guessing at. It could be too high or not high enough
<Starwaster>
TPS on current prototypes is 3.3 kg /m2 but they plan to scale that up to 5kg /m2
<Starwaster>
I figured torii at about 1 kg / m2 but that gives me too much mass when I compare it with known prototypes like IRVE-3 or the 12m one being worked on where they said the smallest torus was 11 kg and it's about 5m across
<Starwaster>
Just a hunch but I have a feeling someone might have tried to guestimate the mass of the stock IHS by scaling up IRVE-3 mass, not realizing that most of that mass was 'payload' (RCS, avionics, cameras, etc) - all things that would be added on by the player and shouldn't have been in the base mass
<Starwaster>
of course that's just a theory. Maybe I'll bug Nathan about it and see if he knows
<Bornholio>
It does have a large structure in model, maybe they thought that it accounts for a varied level of types of loading
<Bornholio>
kind of like the engines are heavy but deep throttle and restart freely
<Bornholio>
If you reduce the weight it should fail outside of a specific loading regime
<Bornholio>
Mars Lander Concepts 20160004384.pdf is this the one you posted before? couple days ago i think.
<Bornholio>
The HIAD is 18.8m - 6t for Aerocapture and 16.7-4.6T for EDL on mars
<Bornholio>
not sure how to account for the central engine hard heatshield section. if its part of the accounting.
<Starwaster>
the mass doesn't scale linearly with diameter
<Starwaster>
engine wouldn't be part of the HIAD mass
<Starwaster>
18.8 for the aerocapture one?
<Bornholio>
"Aerodynamic decelerators – Aerocapture HIAD 18.8 meters deployed – Entry HIAD 16.7 meters deployed – Initial flow impingement studies indicate some impingement and heating of cargo may be possible. Mitigation via cargo insulation or larger diameter decelerator is a topic for future study"
<Starwaster>
FYI, use of any HIADS for the 2020 missions has been ruled out
<Starwaster>
their tech level readiness time is too close to those missions for consideration
<Starwaster>
so we're not going to see inflatables used over Mars for awhile yet
<Bornholio>
the way its going. Mars manned is like fusion power.
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<Starwaster>
going to have to adjust my calculation for that large cap on the end
<Starwaster>
I don't see how that 16.7m job can be over 4 tons. That can't be inflatable mass. That's gotta be that end cap
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<Starwaster>
I will say though I am NOT accounting for loading for specific environment or payload. Those will increase the aeroshell mass because of the extra strap reinforcement. But not to the tune of 3.8 extra tons
<Bornholio>
Nope not paying 120$ for a new membership... Thats the hole problem .smirk it should have a seperate hard ablator heat shield at the stagnation point.
<Starwaster>
off the top of your head do you know what MSL heat shield mass was?
<Starwaster>
I saw that video. That's time off my life I can't get back
<Starwaster>
also, that web site just doesn't have a lot of useful information on IRVE
<Bornholio>
lol, yeah that part of NASA is cool drama. Yeah i've found a good amount of scholarly stuff that is all paywalled
<Starwaster>
hmmm 8m shield with a rigid center cap lists mass at 6kg/m2 which isn't nearly enough to account for the 16.7m mass
<Bornholio>
Separtor. probably included, imagine some interior insulation and built in antennas and monitoring equipement, Inflators and the tanks for that.
<Starwaster>
yeah, separators IRL don't work like they do in KSP. There is no actual 'decoupler' 'part'
<Starwaster>
it's just primacord and frangible bolts
<Starwaster>
increasing cap mass or TPS mass to 15kg/m2 would come a lot closer to 4.8 tons that they're talking about for that 16m HIAD
<Starwaster>
seems excessive though
<Starwaster>
yeah you see that last page? QUESTIONS? yeah we got questions, where can we send them?
<Bornholio>
Yeah i can't find anything detailing the mass breakdown below that level.
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<Bornholio>
Tara Polsgrove, Jack Chapman, Steve Sutherlin, Brian Taylor, Leo Fabisinski, Tim Collins, Alicia Dwyer Cianciolo, Jamshid Samareh, Ed Robertson, Bill Studak, Sharada Vitalpur, Allan Lee, and Glenn Rakow LOL
<Qboid>
regex: Agathorn left a message for you in #RO [09.06.2017 03:26:31]: "looks a bit weird in a still image but feels ok in actual use with animations"
<Starwaster>
Any contact info for Tara? Jack? Steve? Cmon steve, help us out here
<Bornholio>
NASA HIAD crew
<regex>
Ah
<Starwaster>
yeah they put out a report for a lander using dual-HIAD shells
<Starwaster>
the mass is a little excessive though and it's a detailed mass breakdown but not to the point of individual HIAD components
<regex>
Agathorn, that looks better to my eye, and I should also note that the "step-down for the end menu (Performance Data) looks quite natural.
<Starwaster>
my own estimate is at 1.8-2.0 tons max
<Starwaster>
though that still doesnt account for the end cap
<Starwaster>
if it's nonablative then it's not going to add much more mass. If it IS ablative then could be a bit more
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<Bornholio>
what is the max temp of the infaltable now
<Agathorn>
regex: good to hear :)
<Agathorn>
especially about the stats panel - I was rather torn about how to handle that one
<Starwaster>
I put it at 2120 K
<regex>
The Performance menu?
<Starwaster>
errr though I have no idea if RO is overriding that
<Starwaster>
2120 is a good value and ensures people don't try to use it like a conventional shield
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<Bornholio>
notice a listing of 1260C from the IRVE 1533K... seemed kind of low, probably a hard shield at stagnation because of that.
<leudaimon|work>
I can't believe NathanKell|AWAY didn't beat me because of a failure! Even I felt sorry for him
<Starwaster>
bornholio where do you see that?
<Starwaster>
oh nvm I see it
<Bornholio>
"A combination of materials with names like Nextel, Pyrogel and Kapton are being used on one HIAD concept, the Inflatable Reentry Vehicle Experiment. The goal is to allow the heat shield to survive an atmospheric entry of up to 2,300 degrees Fahrenheit (1260 degrees Celsius)."
<Starwaster>
ah that's right, I probably bumped the maxTemp higher than that because of the soft limit of 85% * maxTemp
<Agathorn>
regex yeah that side panel with the performance dat
<Agathorn>
data*
<Starwaster>
except that 0.85 is not hard coded anymore
<Agathorn>
(sorry at work so ditracted)
<regex>
Np
<Starwaster>
bornholio another reason I probably bumped it up was because 'production' versions of HIAD will probably have better TPS. One limit on that btw is on packing densities: One area that needs improvement is the ability to pack more inflatable/TPS into a tight space
<Starwaster>
Makes me think that on the larger ones they might be aiming for a thicker TPS
<Bornholio>
compared to the other concept vehicle is 65t
<Starwaster>
either that or that center cap is just more massive than I think
<Starwaster>
well that was a full sized lander... a MAV wasnt it?
<Bornholio>
yes
<Starwaster>
maybe even one with full tanks? Or was it ISRU?
<Bornholio>
MDM/MAV mated
<Bornholio>
1.6t of RCS...
<Bornholio>
1/3 of the propellant is RCS 4.7t
<Bornholio>
doing mars mission right now and i think i agree
<Starwaster>
one thing I've seen in several publications is referencing the mass of the HIAD as a percentage of the total entry mass. They're probably estimating any required reinforcement or structure a percentage of the whole
<Starwaster>
usually given as no more than 10% of the entry mass
<Agathorn>
ah crap I forgot to git push from my pc last night
<Starwaster>
Ah hmmm. Just gave me an idea for a small plugin. Something that would set the inflatable mass as between its listed mass and 10% of anything staged above it. A procedurally massed inflatable shield
<Bornholio>
that power oint shows 12t with 2.4t HIAS, vs MLC @65t and 4.6t HIAS
<Starwaster>
I think that would neatly take care of balancing out any future inflatables
<Starwaster>
dont forget the latter one had a dual shield
<Starwaster>
oh... but that was 10t of total shielding
<Bornholio>
ah are they saying its straight on hammer time with this one. No capture first.
<Starwaster>
well yeah :P
<Starwaster>
ah hmmm. I wonder if F.M.Cheatwood@NASA.gov might be willing to take the time to answer some questions from me?
<Bornholio>
nice of him to accept spam to his inbox.
<Starwaster>
should I mention it's for KSP? Maybe he might not respond
<Bornholio>
hard to say, some are very adverse others very positive
<Starwaster>
I have that open like 3 times on my tabs already
<Starwaster>
I have to start closing things
<Starwaster>
my browser is choking
<Starwaster>
it's saying NO MORE PDF WITHOUT REPRESENTATION
<Bornholio>
lol they read slow in tabs, i DL and put them in foxit
<Starwaster>
you dont understand, when I do a search for something I just go down the list ctrl+click, ctrl+click, ctrl+click, ctrl+click, ctrl+click,
<Starwaster>
next page ctrl+click, ctrl+click, ctrl+click, ctrl+click,
<Starwaster>
oops go back a page I think I Missed one ctrl+click,
<Bornholio>
Need wider monitors do you?
<Starwaster>
see I bet you that Tara is reading my email and thinking this guy's a fruitcake... I bet he probably has too many tabs open in his browser
<Starwaster>
no I have a wide monitor... I probably need THREE of them side by side
<Bornholio>
Shes psychic, awesome. Look at some of the day trader setups.
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<Starwaster>
lol
<Bornholio>
yes finally a good aerocapture at 40km Mars for my bulldozer.
<Bornholio>
wonder if reinforced tanks are too good.
<Starwaster>
Bornholio btw, are you aware that if you turn on thermal data that you'll get convective heating from DRE listed as w/cm2?
<Starwaster>
if you ever want to compare to RL values
<Bornholio>
yeah i noticed that, also like the .dll change you gave me listed the temp limits
<Bornholio>
Something missing in my mind is tank coatings that change emmisivity. but i'm insane
<Starwaster>
fine let's be insane together
<Starwaster>
I just assume they're all painted in titanium oxide
<Starwaster>
absorptiveConstant = 0.2
<Starwaster>
emissiveConstant = 0.90
<Starwaster>
there ya go
<Bornholio>
I like the idea of the chop Black/white panel where you adjust the heat loading by rotating to a particular facing
<Bornholio>
and sunshades, big thing for sats, but nothing like it in KSP yet
<Starwaster>
high reflectivity in the visual and high emissive in the IR
<Starwaster>
btw what did you use to land your bulldozer?
<Bornholio>
used some fun coatings for UV absorption in an atomic absoption spectrometer. made black look dull
<Bornholio>
second aerocapture loop to get my speed down to match the solids i mount
<Bornholio>
targetted landings with solids are hard, but i will not be defeated
<Starwaster>
have you seen the document demonstrating HIAD with trim tabs? It has a mechanical separator under the TPS that pushes and deform the outer trim torus. It's got 3 arms. Two braced against two outer torii and 1 braced against the trim torus and it just pushes it out and uses it like a control surface
<Starwaster>
or more like an airbrake for trim
<Bornholio>
assumed the 2016 Mars descent must have used that. since it assume manuvering for Edl
<Bornholio>
part of mass?
<Bornholio>
give the system some control values....
<Bornholio>
or tuck in some clipped control surfaces
<Bornholio>
Tested an ablative coated airbrake mod a while back, just the standard AB wiht the ablative texture on it and stats.
<Bornholio>
How about a petal adapter with ratings for reinforce tanks used as airbrake, assume FAR would handle that well
<Pap>
Probus-Hawaii: if you haven't yet, may I reccommend Ululani's Shaved Ice. It is a level above the other shaved ice options
<Pap>
Probus-Hawaii: What island are you on?
<leudaimon|work>
is there any place in the forums where post drafts stay saved?
<leudaimon|work>
I almost finished my post for the lunar landing yesterday at home, but had to leave it unfinished. Was hoping to finish it now
<Pap>
Not that I know of leudaimon|work, however, hopefully somsone else might
<rsparkyc>
i would be thinking it would just be in your browser's state
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: egg|df|egg left a message for you in #RO [09.06.2017 07:16:49]: "I did remove body targeting on purpose; it turns out that it's needed for third parties as discussed in principia#1414, so I added it hidden away in the "KSP features" section of our UI in principia#1432"
<leudaimon|work>
ah, no way then, will have to wait until I get home and hope there was no problem with the computer
<Probus-Hawaii>
I am on Maui Pap
<Probus-Hawaii>
Ululani's is on Maui about 5 minutes away. We will try it out today.
<Bornholio>
Seems small though. though is uppose on par with lunar regolith samples cost to weight.
<Qboid>
Bornholio: Starwaster left a message for you in #RO [09.06.2017 19:38:01]: "You're supposed to fit them on Earth, not wait to find out if they fit on Mars :P"
<Probus-Hawaii>
Spot on Pap
<Bornholio>
am i supposed to fall into mars?
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<Bornholio>
pretty sure the instrument package aboard my bulldozer can see those so i reloaded to a few km back
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<leudaimon>
!tell NathanKell|AWAY I saw your stream during my lunchtime and felt really sorry for your failure. Hope you better luck in the first crewed orbit! It's very likely you'll beat me by far... I think picking the R&D building upgrade will be my ruin
<Qboid>
leudaimon: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid>
leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [09.06.2017 04:18:30]: "you are one lucky, lucky, lucky fella. Same as last time, LV failure leads to just missing a lunar first vs you :]"
<lamont>
heh
<soundnfury>
o/ leudaimon
<leudaimon>
o/
<leudaimon>
hey soundnfury! I just posted a report for my lunar landing on the forum: forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/161639-ris-competitive-rp-0-career
<soundnfury>
yeah, I saw
<soundnfury>
reading it now
<leudaimon>
:)
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<soundnfury>
how you've managed to get cash enough to start R&D upgrade when you did, I don't know
<soundnfury>
though I suppose I do have the VAB upgrade underway
<leudaimon>
didn't get the VAB, completed all lunar flybys, impacts and orbits, and got the advance money from the crewed orbit
<leudaimon>
oh, and an orbital reentry
<soundnfury>
yeah, but I'd done most of those too.
<soundnfury>
I guess the difference is you got paid for some firsts
<leudaimon>
all three impacts, etc?
<soundnfury>
yup, just one orbiter left to do
<soundnfury>
also I dunno, maybe you've not sunk as much into buying R&D upgrade points as I have
<leudaimon>
I'm at 0.2something
<leudaimon>
per day
<soundnfury>
crikey. I'm at 0.4 (as of y3d001)
<leudaimon>
yeah, I'll be almost at that once the R&D building is ready ;)
<soundnfury>
heh
<leudaimon>
when I complete first orbit I intend to get the VAB upgrade
<soundnfury>
you guys all need to play faster :P I'm consistently furthest in the future, and I'm not spending all that much time playing
<soundnfury>
NK in particular agonises over his designs for _so long_…
<leudaimon>
I assume I'm slow, lots of simulations
<leudaimon>
but also I don't have much time to play
<Starwaster>
The lunar surface is a terrible place to practice NoE flying
<soundnfury>
anyway, gotta zzz now. ttyl
<leudaimon>
bye soundnfury!
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<Starwaster>
saw a strange brown thing in a lower orbit under me.... trying to figure out wth it was. It was just a speck of food on my monitor o.O
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<NathanKell|WORK>
!tell leudaimon no worries, you're playing a great game and are an inspiration to us all :)
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell|WORK>
soundnfury: Yeah, at 0.4...you're going to outstrip us soon I think.
<NathanKell|WORK>
I'm at 0.3something
<NathanKell|WORK>
I desperately need the VAB upgrade tho
<Probus-Hawaii>
Who is winning NathanKell|WORK?
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon
<Probus-Hawaii>
This was a great idea from soundnfury. It provides another aspect to RO. The Cold War race is on again.