<Pap>
NathanKell: is there any MM magic that you can think of that would catch if a certain amount of ANY fuel was on a craft?
<xShadowx>
MM doesnt see
<xShadowx>
er
<xShadowx>
MM doesnt see 'craft' just parts
<xShadowx>
so you can add something to any 'part' based on fuel / if any fuel
<xShadowx>
if you want totals, on a finished craft, that needs code
<Pap>
xShadowx: yeah, I guess I meant for Contract Configurator. Is there any type of keyword with Real Fuels that would give me total fuel, not worried about type
<xShadowx>
ima go use that link for an idea so ty too :D
<Pap>
NathanKell: Does LiquidFuel work as the catch all for all RF fuel types?
<NathanKell>
Nope, LiquidFuel is a resource itself
<NathanKell>
like LqdOxygen or MON3 or anything else
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<xShadowx>
its stock cartoomn magical fuel :)
<NathanKell>
We never use it ourselves, but we also don't remove it from existence. We probably should.
<NathanKell>
Pap: Like I was saying in that PM, the only real alternative is a big OR of all the different options :(
<Pap>
Yeah, that is what I thought, so it would basically need to be an ANY Parameter with HasResource of all of the different types of RCS fuels
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
oh, hmm
<NathanKell>
I wonder if you can get craft dry mass
<Pap>
I can get mass for sure
<NathanKell>
if you can, you can just check the mass ratio
<NathanKell>
not mass period, dry mass :)
<Pap>
let me check
<NathanKell>
then you can do ln(cur/dry) * g0 * (find the lowest Isp thing you have) to get delta V
<Pap>
ah, interesting
<xShadowx>
or sweettalk nightingale into adding a required = yes/any heh
<taniwha>
/dcc send nightingale favorite-drink
<xShadowx>
taniwha read priv :P
<NathanKell>
xShadowx: ?
<NathanKell>
' a required = yes/any heh'
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: the link you gave, inside RESOURCE node, a field named 'required' to set 'yes' or 'any' for multiple RESOURCE nodes
<xShadowx>
be nice to have >:)
<NathanKell>
Ah I see
<Pap>
xShadowx: you can do that by wrapping the HasResource into an ANY parameter
<xShadowx>
oh o.O
<NathanKell>
I thought you knew that, just wanted cleaner cfg :P
<xShadowx>
nooope ;3 but now i do want a cleaner cfg lol
<Pap>
lol
<xShadowx>
lets see if i can make my idea work :D
<Pap>
xShadowx: what is your idea? No secrets
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<xShadowx>
Pap: change a mining contract to 'mine 5 tonnes of any of these'
<NathanKell>
Night egg
<NathanKell>
Well, 'night'
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<Pap>
nice
<Pap>
NathanKell: how many kg are the GEO ComSats you are launching in your career?
<NathanKell>
~130kg dry atm
<NathanKell>
just a few kg of payload tho
<Pap>
Ah, ok
<NathanKell>
in 1963 for Syncom 1/2, they were very light indeed because they went up on Deltas
<Pap>
I am going through historically and marking down the launches and the mass of the sats so I know what to set some parameters at for the contracts
<Pap>
Syncom 3 was only 39 kg
<Pap>
Well, both were, they were identical
<Pap>
Speaking of, did you know that Syncom 3 is still in GEO and has only drifted 7 degrees!?
<Pap>
exactly, which is why I am really glad we are going to be simulating the contracts this way, have to use different LV's
<blowfish>
7 degrees of inclination or 7 degrees in longitude relative to the point on earth it was originally above?
<Pap>
longitude
<Pap>
God I love that Gunter page, sooooo useful
<NathanKell>
yep :)
<NathanKell>
Interesting that the LV to be known as Molniya didn't launch Molniya satellites until 4 years after its introduction
<Pap>
I wish websites were like Github pages and I could push PR's when I have data that they don't. That way I wouldn't have to go to 5 sites everytime to check things
<NathanKell>
:D
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: Do you have pics of the RV that gave you trouble? Or craft file? You were saying it wasn't slowing down much?
<Rokker>
Probus: Jesus
<Rokker>
this is not the navy's week
<NathanKell>
Ah Probus since you're here I'll ask here. How *are* we configuring the Langley lander engine? How's it unbalanced?
<Rokker>
NathanKell: he's prolly afk
<NathanKell>
ah k
<Pap>
Rokker: ramming speed!
<Rokker>
Pap: not just that
<Rokker>
Pap: they lost a sailor
<Rokker>
thought he went overboard
<Rokker>
after 5500 sqkm of searching
<Pap>
That is a ton of damage, how fast was the damn ship going!? Didn't see a damn destroyer?
<lamont>
NathanKell: RD-253, E-1 or H-1?
<Rokker>
Pap: guess what happened after all that searching
<Rokker>
for a week
<Pap>
You didn't ask me, but the E-1, always the E-1
<Pap>
they found him on the ship?
<Rokker>
Pap: yep, engine room
<lamont>
Pap: por que?
<Pap>
he didn't notice they were searching for someone? didn't hear anything in the mess?
<NathanKell>
lamont: Do you want capable LVs that take a while to become reliable, or reliable lower performance stuff?
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<Rokker>
Pap: unsure
<Rokker>
Pap: read 3 different sources
<lamont>
Moar Agathorn!
<Rokker>
some sound like he was injured in an engineering space, some sound like he was hiding
<Rokker>
Pap: all the navy has really said is "thank God he's not dead"
<NathanKell>
lamont: RD-253 is obviously the most capable engine by far in that mix. But it's hellaciously unreliable at the start, and also toxic.
<Saabstory88_>
Pap: Titan I in Materials Science and TItan II in humanSpaceflight?
<lamont>
that’s fine. in my space program we just need to colonize the planets before we destroy the planet...
<NathanKell>
Saabstory88: You mean Satellite era, and then HSF era?
<Saabstory88_>
sorry, yes
<NathanKell>
then yep
<Pap>
^ what he said
<Saabstory88_>
:)
<lamont>
okay the one other downside i can see is the shorter burntime
<Pap>
lamont: I love the E-1 in RO, but NK has forgotten more about this stuff than I know
<NathanKell>
You won't be using it as a sustainer like Thorad/ELT that's for sure
<NathanKell>
Pap: The E-1 is a wonderful almost-ran engine. I'm actually about to start using it on my streams :)
<Saabstory88_>
WIll figure it out, but if anyone knows offhand, beyond Titan II, did the tank get lightened at any point (per fixed length)?
<NathanKell>
I'm not sure it got that lightened from Titan I tbh
<NathanKell>
It started out hella light
<Saabstory88_>
Okay. I’m gonna set a length restriction for the Titan I tank, then leave the Titan-II derived tank constant from there on out
<Pap>
then they just decided to strap on bigger and better boosters, great success
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<Saabstory88_>
NathanKell: E-1 + Atlas Sustainer Second Stage + Agena covered about 70% of my early missions in my current RP-0. Love that engine
<NathanKell>
There was a stretch for III (and various 3x variants), let alone IV, but yeah, probably same mass per unit
<NathanKell>
Saabstory88: Yep!
<NathanKell>
Saabstory88: Interestingly that was the backup for Titan I, if AJ failed
<Saabstory88_>
If they had fully developed the E-1, I could see a timeline where we had a Titan derived EELV
<NathanKell>
You could definitely upthrust it a fair amount that's for sure
<Saabstory88_>
Titan 4 becomes boosters + E-1 vac
<NathanKell>
It'd be interesting to see a 15ft 2x E-1 variant
<Saabstory88_>
:)
<NathanKell>
In fact that's probably gonna be my replacement for Bulldog.
* Rokker
stares
<NathanKell>
USN stares back
<Rokker>
why are you bastardizing one of my baes
<lamont>
it looks like RP-0 master has nothing save breaking in it from pap-contracts branch?
<Rokker>
NathanKell: I'm sad/maf
<Rokker>
mad
<NathanKell>
because Titan was a giant missed opportunity for a non-crumply LV that didn't kill groundcrew.
<Pap>
lamont: how far into your current career are you?
<lamont>
i’m trying to decide between those engines
<Rokker>
NathanKell: the museum provides 0 timeline for when the X-37B or IUS will be going on display
<lamont>
so about where NK is in his videos
<Pap>
ok, then you should be absolutely fine
<lamont>
although i’ve been face planting on the moon more than sending probes to venus
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<Saabstory88_>
Totally adding a 15ft widebody Titan tank now :)
<Rokker>
Saabstory88: u monster
<NathanKell>
Rokker: u wot m8. It's your LDCs.
<NathanKell>
I mean, I thought you'd have a fetish for Barbarian / Timberwind.
<Rokker>
NathanKell: LDCs?
<Rokker>
nah
<Rokker>
I like the classic titan
<Rokker>
it was perfect as it was
<Pap>
A lot of progress...All Engine Config upgrades are done, all upgrades for RCS and Solid Tech are done, all upgrades for RCS fuel types are done, tree is in good shape
<Pap>
NathanKell: from the to-do list, what does this mean?... take advantage of KSP 1.2's auto-unlock thing for equivalent parts.
<NathanKell>
I added something (the exact syntax of which I know forget) where you can specify in a part cfg that when you unlock that part, it unlocks other parts too
<NathanKell>
like if you unlock one LR79 we could have it unlock all the others
<NathanKell>
Phil Bono gonna Phil Bono, basically.
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<Saabstory88_>
schnobs: Well, I guess I know what I’m doing next in RP-0 :P
<Pap>
Saabstory88_: do you know anything about how the RealTank resrouces are setup? I don't want to bother NK in his stream
<Saabstory88_>
Is RealTank seperate from RealFuels and ModularFuelSystem?
<Pap>
sorry, no, I tryped the wrong thing
<Pap>
If the utilization = 1000, does that mean 1000 units per 1 Liter of volume?
<Saabstory88_>
Let me look at the relevent code, standby
<taniwha>
I never really understood utilization
<taniwha>
I'd figure it out each time I needed to, but then promptly forget
<Saabstory88_>
In what context are you seeing utilization=1000?
<Pap>
ElectricCharge
<Saabstory88_>
Oh, then that is likely to be what it means
<Pap>
ok, thank you
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<Saabstory88>
NP
<Starwaster>
leudaimon, unlikely to be a DRE issue. It's more likely to be a heat shield configuration issue
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<leudaimon>
oh ok Starwaster! after applying NK's recent tweaks to heat I managed the reentry, but I think it's still too difficult... don't you think a 1m shield for a 180-200kg craft should be fine?
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<Pap>
Starwaster: can you help me before I go crazy?
<Starwaster>
depends on the reentry speed and angle...
<rsparkyc>
Pap: any idea here?
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: egg left a message for you in #RO [16.06.2017 21:39:43]: "so, we looked at your save; it seems tricky; do you happen to know whether the game was in the process of dewarping when you last saved/changed scene on that save?"
<Starwaster>
pap I dunno? what is making you go crazy?
<Pap>
Starwaster: I figured it out, I am an idiot
<rsparkyc>
!tell egg* I'm not sure about the warping, but IIRC, a vessel exploded in the atmosphere before i exited. I think it can't save in that scenario, so my guess is it saved earlier in the atmosphere
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<taniwha>
Starwaster: I don't like those fancy properties either
<Starwaster>
what fancy properties...
<Pap>
rsparkyc: I responded to that
<taniwha>
on the tanks
<taniwha>
the ones you complained about a few days ago
<Starwaster>
uhm refresh my memory a bit?
<Starwaster>
I'm not sure what I complained about
<rsparkyc>
pap: he has ContractConfigurator 1.22.2
<taniwha>
May 30 01:15:56 <KevinStarwaster> taniwha WHY do we have unsafe getters and setters in FuelTank? It's kinda screwing me over here
<rsparkyc>
pap which is what I have
<Starwaster>
and I forget what I thought the solution was...... either have them return a sane value or initialize whatever wasn't initialized.
<Pap>
rsparkyc: I went with a different approach
<Starwaster>
and I forget WHY it was happening... vessel decoupling and creating a new vessel but the tank should still have been able to get those properties... I should have looked at it last time I as in there a day ago
<Starwaster>
which, btw, I pushed fixes for the tanks exploding on analytic after long periods unloaded
<Starwaster>
and I have to go AFK to go help give fluids to a sick cat
<Starwaster>
bbiab
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<Saabstory88>
@Pap payload ize limits?
<Pap>
We are creating new resources that will have to be on satellite contracts and the way I am setting them up, you will be forced to have a specific amount of that resource on the vessel when it reaches orbit, it will force different launch vehicles and designs
<Agathorn>
hmm why a specific amounbt of a resource rather than a mass requirement?
<Agathorn>
seems a mass requirement would achieve the same thing but work better with individual satellite designs
<Agathorn>
whereas forcing a given amount of a resource means everyone sat is goign to have different mass to achieve the exact samer contract
<Agathorn>
pap^
<Pap>
Agathorn: You are correct on that. With Contract Configurator, I am strugglig to determine how to accomplish that check at the correct time
<Agathorn>
you mean using Mass instead?
<Pap>
correct
<Agathorn>
oh so this is a workaround
<Agathorn>
bummer :(
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<Agathorn>
guess it bothers me that this system will essentially favor the minimalists and those who care more about function over design
<Agathorn>
whereas people like me who want cool looking satellites, and neat designs, will be hauling much heavier masses
<Agathorn>
but trust me, I can see how it is hard to figure out what is payload and what isn't
<Agathorn>
strugglign with a lot of that myself :)
<Agathorn>
flexability makes things really hard on the designer
<Pap>
I can check mass once it reaches orbit, but what stops a player from just leaving the LV attached to accomplish it? I agree with what you are saying as well though.
<Agathorn>
what about just checking the top stage mass?
<Agathorn>
probably an edge case for that as well just not sure what it is?
<Agathorn>
or can you not get stage masses?
<Pap>
I also want to force larger payloads. For example, the Boeing 601 satellite is 2.7 x 3.2 x 4.3 meters
<Pap>
I cannot get stage masses
<Agathorn>
well then we need to add that :D
<Agathorn>
as for sizes, thats better done by just requiring certain cores IMHO
<Pap>
what do you mean by certain cores?
<Agathorn>
can't be that hard to add the ability to get stage mass
<Agathorn>
I mean the part used for the satellite core/bus
<Agathorn>
if you want to make a contract that simulates liftin a b601, make them use the b601 part :)
<Pap>
Yeah, but what I ideally want is for you to create a payload however you want that ticks off a couple of boxes
<Agathorn>
need to talk someone like CobaltWolf into taking my Boeing 702 model and getting it in game
<Pap>
You have a 702 model?
<Agathorn>
well you either want to allow freedom of design or you want them to use a certain design, you can' thave both lol
<Agathorn>
I do.. mostly finished
<Agathorn>
but needs some final work and texturing/KSP integration
<Agathorn>
I originally was building it for SSTU but it was a victim of my leaving KSP
<Pap>
ah, I gotcha
<Pap>
Agathorn: What if I attempted the best of both worlds...
<Agathorn>
Then you might be assimilated
<Pap>
You are required to have a certain amount of the "resource", but I only set it at say 50-60% of the total mass required? Then the player can include propellant or prettiness, but it will still require a larger payload to fit the "resource"
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<Agathorn>
don't see how that changes anything
<Agathorn>
as long as the requirement is X resources, there will be people who build the absolute minimum to get that X resource and forsaek everythign else such as batteris, antenna, panels, or whatever
<Agathorn>
but reaklly I don't see that you have much choice
<Qboid>
[#631] title: How hard would it be to query stage mass? | Curious if this would be an easy add or not. Would be useful for contracts, especially satellite based ones, to be able to query the mass of a given stage rather than the whole vessel. | https://github.com/jrossignol/ContractConfigurator/issues/631
<Agathorn>
*shrug*
<Agathorn>
ijf you could go by the actual stage mass then it would be ideal because then any additional stuff a player wants to do for design would count for them rather than against them
<Agathorn>
but we'll see
Agathorn is now known as Agathorn|Food
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<lamont>
the problem with the RD-253 is no verniers if you want just one
<NathanKell>
lamont: That is true of almost all single engines
<NathanKell>
Pap: I am
<lamont>
yeah but its more the lack of an lr-101-like part that burns UDMH+NTO
<NathanKell>
lamont: Ah, right.
<NathanKell>
So bring a tiny bit of kerolox? :D
<NathanKell>
At one point someone (schnobs?) was looking into making generic verniers
<lamont>
yeah i fought with the UI a bit and got me some kerolox =)
<NathanKell>
^_^
<Pap>
NathanKell: can you explain why Beryllium in the default tank have a mass of .000016, but for Fuselage and Service Module the mass is .000081?
<lamont>
which is not “realistic” but “mumble, mumble, russian vernier, close my eyes…”
<NathanKell>
Pap: You mean the mass in the TANK nodes?
<NathanKell>
That's the mass of the tank wall per liter contained
<NathanKell>
And it's a stupid mistake
<NathanKell>
because that would be true if beryllium were under pressure
<NathanKell>
but it's a solid
<NathanKell>
(the reason for the difference is regular tanks are only ~2atm and servicemodule/fuselage are Highly Pressurized and thus more like 160atm or something)
<NathanKell>
Pap: So e.g. beyond the basic structural mass of the part, it costs x kg per liter to have an NTO tank at 2atm (non-highly-pressurized), and y kg per liter to have an NTO tank at 160atm (SM, Fuselage).
<taniwha>
dad's in hospital again, on a morphine pump. he's not expected to go home :(
<NathanKell>
taniwha: :(
<Starwaster>
:(
<NathanKell>
Good timinig to be there when you were. So glad you went.
<Pap>
So, should I set the mass as different amounts for the different types of tanks?
<taniwha>
NathanKell: yeah, very glad
<lamont>
:(
<Pap>
taniwha: I am very sorry to hear that
<taniwha>
and it was good timing
<taniwha>
thanks guys, and that's why I disappeared for two weeks
<Starwaster>
wow, MJ actually got a rocket into 10xKerbin orbit without me... I was starting to despair that it would do that. Now to see if I can get it to do the same for Earth
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: \o/
<Starwaster>
it's tthat stupid little hack I've been playing with. It works IF I have the rocket's TWR right in all stages and if I have a proper ballistic arc to start with.
<Starwaster>
really need something like Saturn's IGM mode though
<NathanKell>
ya
<NathanKell>
still, cool! :)
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|NOMZ
<Agathorn|Food>
propellant gets more dense with pressure?
Agathorn|Food is now known as Agathorn
<Starwaster>
no
<Starwaster>
increased density comes mostly from lower temperatures. Pressurization is for helping force the propellant into the engine and to raise the boiling temperature
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<regex>
How do I tell MechJeb to launch south?
<regex>
negative inclination?
<Pap>
Inclination 180
<regex>
Thanks
* Pap
crosses fingers and hopes it was correct
<regex>
Nope
<regex>
Launches retrograde
<Pap>
90 launches north for me
<Pap>
so -90 should launch south?
<Rokker>
Pap: god im sad now
<regex>
God damnit, what the fuick is up with the damn launchpad? every time physics kicks in the fucking rocket leans over like the motherfucking tower of pisa
<Pap>
because I cannot come to Dayton Rokker?
<Agathorn>
that issue still exists? :(
<Rokker>
Pap: the dayton air show used to be absolutely amazing
<Agathorn>
honestly that crap was one of the reasons I stopped playing
<Rokker>
and now its just very mediocre
<Agathorn>
I got so sick of havign to try lajunches a dozen times before ther rocket didn't go all MJFOX
<regex>
Pisses me off. I've had everything from like, 2 degrees to fucking 30 degrees
<Agathorn>
yes I had hoped it would be fixed :( sad that it isn't
<Agathorn>
I couldn't play with it without raging
<regex>
Observe me raging.
Agathorn is now known as Agathorn|Away
<regex>
Awww, I was hoping I had anbother bat in the bio container...
<regex>
welp, fruit flies first above the karman line
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<Mat>
Hello everyone! first time on the IRC, Nathan told me to join :)
<regex>
o/
<Pap>
Hi Mat, welcome!
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<Mat>
thanks !
<Pap>
Damn, I am not smart enough for this stuff
<xShadowx>
its ok, nobody is, we all just act like we understand it to fit in :D
<Pap>
Trying to figure out the proper deinsity and mass costs for these resources is just dumb
<Pap>
^ more accurate statement, I am dumb and I am trying to figure out the proper density and mass values
<regex>
What's wrong with them?
<regex>
I'm sure things have changed since I've been around, is this new stuff?
<Pap>
I didn't understand that the density of water is set to 0.001
<regex>
Ah, yeah, it's like, g/cc^3, divided by 1000 or something
<Pap>
So I was trying to figure out the mass of these new resources and I knew what I wanted the overall total to be, but I did it out of base 1
<regex>
It's been so long
<Pap>
It was giving me crazy high numbers, so it took me 6 reloads to figure out that it needed to be out of base 0.001
<regex>
tripped me up all the time when I added all the weird fuels.
<Pap>
Now this reload will show whether I figured it out or not
<regex>
If you ever want to read some epic Northstar whackery (hint: you don't) check out the early CRP thread when we were integrating Real Fuels.
<Pap>
lol
<Pap>
And I was off by a factor of 10, but the rest of the numbers are correct, easy fix
<regex>
ugh... build Vanguard, launch another attempt to get bio samples above the Karman line, or have another beer and rage at Dead Cells...
<Pap>
Vanguard
<regex>
Beer and Vanguard.
<regex>
Then Dead Cells
<regex>
Oh Pap, thank you for placing the SSTU stuff. That makes me happy.
NathanKell|NOMZ is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<NathanKell>
hey Mat!
<Pap>
np regex, I love that mod
<Pap>
ok, I have broken my brain and the resources
<NathanKell>
Pap: It's because KSP's mass unit is tonnes, and RF's volume unit is liters, so density is tonnes/liter (or 1/1000 of the usual g/cc)
<regex>
The engines are top-notch
<Pap>
OK, please help...I have set the mass to = 0 beucase I do not want any extra weight added to the tanks
<Pap>
I have the density set at 0.00008075, but it is not giving me the answer I want it to
<Pap>
My goal is to have 22900 equal about 1.8 tons
<Pap>
NEVERMIND! That is correct, I didn't take into account the 355 kg for the weight of the tank
<Pap>
thank god
<Pap>
It must be too late
<Mat>
Hey Nathan ! it's Mathias :) having a lot of fun looking through some of the new stuff . Seems to run really well too. Love the "Mount" mod like for the RL-10, that's new to me
<Mat>
is there any way to disable construction time? I just wanna test stuff
<regex>
Is that in the engine right-click menu>
<Mat>
yeah
<regex>
That's SSTU.
<Mat>
very cool, love it
<NathanKell>
Mat: Awesome! And sure, in the space center click the KCT icon then Choose Preste
<NathanKell>
Preset*
<NathanKell>
then choose the 'disabled' preset
<NathanKell>
regex: Personally I think the RealEngines RD-10x engines are prettier
<NathanKell>
but I have the one where the verniers are screwed. Pap said it's fixed now tho
<NathanKell>
need to update
<NathanKell>
(Mat: This applies to you too since you have the rar)
<regex>
I agree with that, but SSTU has some excellent US engines
<Pap>
Woah, I said the changelog said it was fixed, didn't test
<NathanKell>
Indeed
<regex>
and I'm playing a US game
<NathanKell>
Pap: NOPE YOU'RE ON THE HOOK NOW
<Pap>
Yes, SSTU US engines are nice, RealEngines have the best Soviet era engines
<NathanKell>
regex: Yeah. Also Saab's LR79 is great
<NathanKell>
I've config'd the LR79 but the rest I haven't done yet. It needed a bit of touchup from when Saab made 'em
<NathanKell>
but he's back now so \o/
<regex>
Oh dude, when the Real Engines guy added the S5.92 i8t was the happiest RO day in the Bengtson household.
<NathanKell>
Well, I cloned it to be an E-1, too
<regex>
Sweet!
<NathanKell>
regex: :D
<NathanKell>
I cloned that to be an RD-0105/0109 because I got sick of us not having one
<Mat>
hmm I dont see a disable preset , only : 7days / default / UpFree / RP0 / Custom , might be your presets ?
<regex>
I noticed.
<regex>
Default, I think?
<NathanKell>
Mat: Um, on the far right, there should be an option for 'disable KCT'
<NathanKell>
it's not a preset, sorry
<regex>
Ah, yeah, that
<NathanKell>
regex hates it too IIRC :)
<regex>
Nah, I'm playing with it
<regex>
For sandbox and stock, yeah, it doesn't fit.
<regex>
but for RP-0 it makes sense
<Pap>
NathanKell: Is there any reason I shouldn't add a larger Box Sat from the stock one?
<Pap>
Cube Shaped Satellite Bus
<Mat>
in general settings under "max timewarp" ? I dont find it lol, I must be blind
<Mat>
oh or should I just cl=ick on "mod enabled"
<NathanKell>
Mat: Nope, I lied again. Center
<NathanKell>
Yeah that
<NathanKell>
sorry!
<Mat>
np :D
<Mat>
thanks !
<NathanKell>
:)
<NathanKell>
Pap: Hmm. I don't suppose VSR has a cube?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Or, hmm, there's at least 2 SXT probe cores we don't config
<NathanKell>
there's a gold one isn't there? That'd be cool
<Pap>
Gold would be ideal
<NathanKell>
Prospero is, well, prospero. But there's also a gold L-shaped one
<NathanKell>
looks modern
<NathanKell>
Dunno what that is based off
<NathanKell>
welp, trying leudaimon's reentry
<NathanKell>
we'll see what bugs
<Mat>
mm weird even if I did disable it, and save the config, and unchecked "override launch button", if I go to VAB launch button is grey out and I still need to click "build" with KCT
<Mat>
sorry Im just catching up with all that stuiff I was used to play an RO for like a year and a half ago , never had KCT before
<Mat>
and it still has a construction time in the build list..
<NathanKell>
Mat: that's weird. Sounds like it didn't disable.
<NathanKell>
It did for me
<NathanKell>
uh, 1sec
<NathanKell>
Mat: Sent you a save to try
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<NathanKell>
urp
<regex>
Might also need to create a new save
<NathanKell>
Mat: I missed a file. *now* I sent you the right thing
<NathanKell>
Unzip all three to your sandbox save
<NathanKell>
load 'start'
<NathanKell>
I have zero idea why it's not properly disabling for you, but I know it was for me, so...
<NathanKell>
regex: Naw, changing presets midway should be fine
<Mat>
let me see
<Mat>
I think Im just gonna remove KCT for nowm, Im tired haha
<Mat>
ok Im stupid, sorry. I misread what should be on or off on the button. Thats how long I havent played KSP
<Mat>
XD
<taniwha>
Mat: I've done the same myself :/
<Mat>
haha, well now it works :)
<Mat>
Ive disabled it
<NathanKell>
\o/
<NathanKell>
and hah :D
<Mat>
I see the jumping rockets are still around
<Mat>
on the launch pad
<NathanKell>
Clamps
<NathanKell>
even with clamps?
<Mat>
yeah :D
<NathanKell>
...
<Mat>
no
<NathanKell>
weird
<NathanKell>
?
<Mat>
I eman yeah I need clamps
<NathanKell>
yeah
<NathanKell>
With clamps I don't see it much at all
<Pap>
Alright, last load of KSP tonight....
<NathanKell>
!tell leudaimon I mimicked the descent in your pictures. I hit 2G deceleration at 70km, and everything went super fine (other than the exposed antennae burning off as expected). About 11 units of ablator used.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
NathanKell: We are mostly worried about engines unlocking with your identicalPart = a, b, c type thing, correct?
<NathanKell>
yeah
<Pap>
OK, I should be able to write a very simple extraction from my Excel sheet to have that done very easily
<NathanKell>
only other culprits are the pods in multiple part packs, assuming they're parted out the same
<NathanKell>
\o/
<Mat>
would be nice if we could click through procedural fairing in the VAB
<NathanKell>
You can click through them when they're at an angle
<NathanKell>
they only have colliders in the cylindrical sections
<regex>
Just tear them off
<Mat>
oh I see
<NathanKell>
also you can click through the 'seams'
<Mat>
nice
<NathanKell>
if there's 2 of them, click at the join and it goes through
<NathanKell>
!tell leudaimon looks like your issue was that things didn't voxelize right or something, so drag wasn't being applied right
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell>
!tell leudaimon you're on the latest FAR yes?
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
^ NathanKell that should get the job done, correct?
<NathanKell>
When is the engineType deleted?
<NathanKell>
You might want to run BEFORE
<NathanKell>
If it's not cleaned up until AFTER, then FOR is safe
<NathanKell>
ok, as promised think I'll stream a bit of Glorious Soviet Raketoplan design
<Pap>
Good night NK, see you tomorrow
<Pap>
Good stream
<NathanKell>
o/
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<regex>
o/
<Pap>
Good night all, regex
Pap is now known as Pap|Sleep
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<NathanKell|Twitch>
I'm...I'm in awe at that
SigmaAway is now known as Sigma88
<NathanKell|Twitch>
(for those who missed it, "why didnt they have some tiles on board to glue on the shuttle once in orbit to see if thye need to patch it up" )
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<egg|zzz|egg>
!tell rsparkyc were you physwarping?
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
!tell Theysen I saw that, it would be awfully quick since release for him to be launching a Space Station (is possible though)
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Theysen>
Pap, welp not actually, just addicted
<Qboid>
Theysen: Pap left a message for you in #RO [17.06.2017 11:56:14]: "I saw that, it would be awfully quick since release for him to be launching a Space Station (is possible though)"
<Pap>
lol
<schnobs>
Ahm, that bug (demanding to return the station) has been in there since quite some time. I got it before I went to Mars, that was when? April last year or so I guess.
<Duncan>
So I have some questions if anyone has a few minutes free. The first is do pressure fed engines still need ullage motors?
<Theysen>
Duncan, that should be stated in the part description if ullage is required
<Duncan>
It does not state it, but when I did simulation launch it failed to ignite saying presure is too low
<Duncan>
Do I have to set up the tank pressure somehow?
<schnobs>
Duncan, it's entirely possible (normal, even) for pressure-fed engines to require ullage.
<schnobs>
All tanks are pressureized, but you want them to be HIGH-pressurized. That's either the ServiceModule Tank type, or one other which name escapes me at the moment.
<Theysen>
Duncan, did you have pressuirzed tanks?
<Theysen>
Fuselage too
<schnobs>
Yup.
<Duncan>
I had pressurized fuselage
<Duncan>
I am specifically looking at the astris engine
<schnobs>
You can check in VAB. It should say something like Hi-Pres on the tank's context menu.
<Duncan>
yeah it does say that
<Theysen>
double check, the engine then should not state feed pressure too low if attached to highly press. tanks
<Pap>
Duncan, whether or not an engine needs ullage is separate from the pressurization. Some will need it, some will not
<schnobs>
Also, if you right-click the engine in VAB it says "Feed pressure OK" or "too low".
<schnobs>
No need to launch first.
<schnobs>
Oh man.
<Duncan>
doesnt say that
<Duncan>
anyway, turns out the astris is not better than the AJ10
<Duncan>
so dont worry about it
<Duncan>
the next question was about my rcs
<schnobs>
what's this about many-part vessels just falling apart on the pad? ("Stock" KSP, no KJR)
<schnobs>
Nevermind.
<schnobs>
The astris is a fine little engine, and for quite some time outperforms AJ-10. Also, unlimited ignitions!
<Duncan>
aj10 mid also has unlimited ignitions
<Theysen>
trur
<Duncan>
right it is better, I had the wrong tank set
<Theysen>
Duncan, and what RCS ques is there?
<Duncan>
it just doesnt work for me
<Duncan>
let me set up a part tester on the pad so I can trouble shoot better
<Duncan>
Ok so I have an HTP tank with 4 attitude jets on it
<Theysen>
RCS propellants need the pressurized tanks too
<Duncan>
I stage the rcs and then press wasdqe repeatedly. The HTP level does not go down and the jets do not fire
<schnobs>
is the RCS itself configured for the fuel you have?
<Duncan>
highly pressurized seems to be the default setting
<Duncan>
facepalm
<Duncan>
thanks that is probably what the problem was
<Theysen>
lol
<Duncan>
whats the best propellant for a satellite attitude rcs?
<Theysen>
check the ISP's of the different configs in the right click menu
<Theysen>
MMH-NTO is nice
<Theysen>
Hydrazine is technically the easiest to use and store (but we don't simulate this stuff) - besides Nitrogen e.g, which is just opening a big bottle of gas
<schnobs>
misconfigured RCS: been there, done that. Assumed it to be comm issues, spent an hour investigating the wrong cause.
<Theysen>
Hydrazine irl is most times led over a catalysator which causes a reaction and the outcome of that is your thrust
<schnobs>
If you want to roleplay, you use cold gas (N2, He, ..) for attitude well into the 70s.
<Theysen>
actually schematics of a RCS system on a probe or satellite need some time to understand. EVERYTHING is redundant plus "if A or B fails, but not C or D, then.." to make sure you don't lose the probe in deep space
<schnobs>
IIRC the Voyagers were the first to use the same fuel for both attitude and RCS (at least teh first US probes) . It was cold-gas until then.
<Pap>
YES! The new resources are in! Now to just figure out how much to require for various missions
<Duncan>
nope, still not working
<Theysen>
more than enough please. Make it hard
<Theysen>
duncan post a screenie of the vessel
<Duncan>
so I tried configuring for N and HTP, in both cases a tank with that gas and an avionics unit
<Theysen>
is the tank highly pressurized?
<Pap>
I always have the hardest time trying to determine how much RCS fuel I need to bring
<Duncan>
I apologise in advance for the fact that all of this is likely to be some kind of facepalm on my part
<Theysen>
NP wanted to play anyways
<Theysen>
somehow trying to get that ariane upper working as a lunar injector :)
<Probus>
o/
<Theysen>
let's see
<Theysen>
hey Probus
<Theysen>
Duncan, they're firing straight through the CoM in your setup and that doesn't work with the KSP logic
<Theysen>
you wouldn't induce rotation but translation (mostly)
<Duncan>
I thought I moved them before I exported
<Duncan>
oh I might have forgotten to save
<Theysen>
I attached them to the bottom and they work
<Duncan>
move them off the CoM they still arent working for me
<Duncan>
I had them on top
<Duncan>
I will try bottom
<Theysen>
far away from the CoM
<Theysen>
your CoM basically is on top
<Duncan>
ok
<Theysen>
but the configuration of the tanks is fine
<Theysen>
just placement is poor
<Duncan>
still doesnt explain the issue though, I had them on actual probes right at the end
<Duncan>
oh right but there was the R key and also the fuel config
<Duncan>
might ahve been a different issue each time
<Theysen>
double check tanks and crossfeeds if needed, might have forgotten to confogure correctly :)
<Duncan>
ok cool they are working there
<Duncan>
the last question I had was about heliocentric orbit
<Duncan>
heliosynchronous I mean
<Duncan>
it says on the contract I need more than 95 degrees inclination
<Duncan>
is that all there is to it or is it more complicated than that?
<Theysen>
iirc inclination higher than 95 and 400km of peri?
<Theysen>
because for 96° inclination the orbit would be 100x100 and that's doable IRL but not in KSP
<Pap>
Duncan, it should also tell you that you need a minimum Perigee?
<Duncan>
yes
<Duncan>
300 I think
<Theysen>
so do that^^
<Pap>
Yep, you launch northwest, or use MechJeb and enter 96 in the inclination, and you will be good
<Theysen>
HDG 350 and you're fine
<Duncan>
ok cool
<Theysen>
although, don't launch them from the cape
<Theysen>
for realism sake :⁾
<Theysen>
Vandenberg it is :P
<Duncan>
thanks for all the help
<Theysen>
np
<Theysen>
glad it works
<Theysen>
spread the word and convert ;)
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<Pap>
Alright, I have release my stock Contract Pack, I have done my good deed for the day
<Duncan>
You certainly have, well done and thanks
* Theysen
installs 1.3 stock and downloads it
<Theysen>
jk
<Pap>
lol
<Theysen>
nah really, I have a 1.2.2 with exactly that in stockish install:)
<Theysen>
because it's somehow RP-0 in stock XD
<Pap>
That's all it was designed to be ;)
<Theysen>
CKAN pls?
<Pap>
I loved the RP-0 progression of contracts, I just didn't want to play RO to get them
<Theysen>
sorry I stop now :D
<Theysen>
I oddly love building space stations in stock, those contracts were so good for that
<Theysen>
now you play RO and are sane finally :P
<Pap>
Or, I am insane for playing RO...
<Theysen>
No.
<Theysen>
only issue is you can't build "sane" in stock anymore which looks half decent and end up with enough delta v to deorbit Kerbol when you just want to put a satellite into Dunatian Orbit.
<Pap>
So true! I haven't touched stock since I started playing RO, but I watch Twitch streams and I am like, oh, he is building a sounding rocket, and instead they land on the Mun
<Theysen>
I like those streamers who go abstract in completeness and don't try to build realistically anymore.
<Theysen>
cause it just does not work
<Theysen>
and you shouldn't need to throttle down engines and take less fuel just because stock is so insanely overpowered
<Pap>
Theysen: that is actually why I bult Quarter Sized RSS. It is the best size to use stock parts, but require "realish" sizes
* Theysen
doesn't want to bother with launch windows for going to the Moon in stock.
<Pap>
It is essentially a Telstar 1 knockoff with accurate diameter and RL launch mass was 171 kg
<Theysen>
thats superb
<Agathorn>
will Isp tell me the "rate" at which propellant is being consumed by the engine or do I need some other properites?
<Theysen>
Agathorn, basically yes
<Theysen>
which formula do you use for the Isp?
<Theysen>
Thrust = Isp * mass flow
<Agathorn>
it is stored
<Agathorn>
I have SL and VAC Isp and thrust stored on the engine
<Agathorn>
ahh cool so I can just rearrange that
<Theysen>
Thrust should suffice for the mass flow yes :)
<Agathorn>
that's what I figured but I only woke up a few minuytes ago and was still working it out lol
<Theysen>
given you don't want to startup and residuals in the tank and unstable combustion but welp, that might be out of scope
<Agathorn>
yeah
<Agathorn>
yeah as in out of scope :)
<Pap>
Can I make a config with a fuel tank where the resource cannot be changed, only the quantity?
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<Agathorn>
well RF restricts things based on properties, so I think so
<Agathorn>
like you can't even put RCS fules into a tank that doesn't support tham
<Pap>
Ah, so I just mihht have to create a new tank type
<Theysen>
Pap, if I blow into space on the first launch with the new contracts, do I lose Karman?
<Agathorn>
yes :(
<Agathorn>
happened to me
<Theysen>
not that it pays much but still
<Theysen>
OCD
<Agathorn>
^
<Agathorn>
it annoyed me and I think it should be unlocked from the get go
<Theysen>
yeah, Id like to kickstart my career, especially the first few launches
<Theysen>
I don't see any gains by building an itty bitty sounding rocket
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<Agathorn>
that just gets washed down the spout, never to be used again
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<Duncan>
doesnt take long though
<Duncan>
just put a solid on the pad and press space
<Duncan>
then it should be unlocked
<Agathorn>
not resally the point though :)
<Agathorn>
shouldn' thave to game the system
<Duncan>
I agree
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<rtnb>
I feel like something is wrong with my RO settings -- didn't realize until I was doing the reentry RP-0 contract where it ask for a suborbital trajectory with velocity over 6,500m/s..... but 6,500m/s is more than enough to escape Earth SOI in my game... i feel like the deltav requirements in my game arent high enough
<Agathorn>
RSS?
<Qboid>
Agathorn: [RSS] => Real Solar System
<rtnb>
yeah
<Agathorn>
6500m/s shouldn't even be enough for orbit
<rtnb>
thats what i thought
<Agathorn>
how much dV are you using to get into orbit?
<rtnb>
not sure exactly.... but using FASA explorer 1 i can get there with the 2nd stage alone and its a huge elliptical
<Agathorn>
hmm not sure what to verify or the best way to go about it
<Agathorn>
you have RSS so that should be good.. and you h ave RealFuels right?
<Agathorn>
And no stock configs for it
<rtnb>
hmm
<rtnb>
i was just looking through my mods
<rtnb>
theres one called SSRSS (stock sized real solar system)
<Agathorn>
well that would do it
<Agathorn>
I assume anyway...never played it
<rtnb>
damnit... it mustve been a recommendation of something else
<Agathorn>
but RO is generally tuned for a real scale solar system
<rtnb>
yeah thats what i was trying to play
<rtnb>
and i was like wait this is way too easy wtf is happening lol
<rtnb>
ok well thanks confirming my suspicions, probably wouldnt have gone through the mod list otherwise
<Agathorn>
np..yank that sucker out and see how it goes
<rtnb>
looks like EVE put it in there
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<Bornholio>
yeah after 12 hours i have power and internet!
<Pap>
Nice Bornholio, bad storms blow through yesterday?
<Pap>
Theysen: you don't lose Karman, it just gets unlocked second
<Bornholio>
yup 70mph winds, halp the naeigbor cut up trees for 5 hours
<lamont>
jokes on you agathorn, i already hit my target apoapsis before you shut down my engine…
<Bornholio>
neighbor
<Pap>
Yeah, we have had some nasty storms the last 3 nights
<Pap>
lol lamont
<Bornholio>
lamont did NK's fix work for you on reentry?
<Bornholio>
sorry wrong person i think
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<lamont>
yeah i haven’t been doing reentries and haven’t updated RO recently
<Pap>
yeah Bornholio, that was leudeimon
<Bornholio>
leudaimon did NK's fix work for reentries
<Pap>
he's offline :)
<Agathorn>
gah
<Pap>
see what happens when you are gone for 12 hours?
<Agathorn>
I just spent like an hour dilligently typing in about 60 entries into a JSON file for a air pressure table
<Bornholio>
blisters and sore fingers
<Agathorn>
only to realize when I was done that I entered it in kPa and i'm supposed to be storing erverytrhing in base units
<Bornholio>
"Sucks" to be you, or that blows
<Pap>
Agathorn: can you copy and paste to Excel and then multiply and past back into the JSON?
<Agathorn>
now I have to AVOID CHEATING and go back and update everything
<Agathorn>
Pap not really
<Pap>
ugh
<Agathorn>
oh wait.. sublime
<Agathorn>
I think I can do this in subliome
<Agathorn>
after all all I need to do is move the decimal point
<Rounan>
wow. Looks like sublime >> notepad++. I hadn't heard of it
<Agathorn>
done
<Agathorn>
and yes very much so
<Pap>
sublime is one of the best open source editors, is it better than notepad++ ? I have heard a lot about it, but never used it
<Agathorn>
not hugely so, and a lot will come down to preferencexs
<Agathorn>
but IMHO yes
<Agathorn>
it has things that I can't live without
<lamont>
Pap: do i need 2 or more dishes for comsats for the network contracts?
<Rounan>
I'm only going off the homepage GIF, but I imagine those batch edits would be hard to let go of once you figured 'em out
<lamont>
aka how do i satisfy “in direct contact with each other”?
<Pap>
lamont: are you playing with RemoteTech?
<lamont>
ja
<Pap>
Do you have Communotron 16's unlocked?
<Pap>
Are you doing the 3 or 4 contract version?
<Hohman>
What was the last version of KSP where "everything" for RO worked as intended? 1.1.3?
<lamont>
i haven’t decided on 3 or 4
<Pap>
Hohman: except for the orbital decay bug
<Agathorn>
1.2
<Agathorn>
Rounan: yes they are
<Rokker>
Pap: oooooo
<Agathorn>
or more specifically 1.2.2
<lamont>
hit the wrong button, one second...
<Rokker>
geico has a skytyper team, pap
<Hohman>
So if I have steam roll back to 1.2 and tell CKAN to fetch RO, I'll get the full suite?
<Rokker>
flies 6 T-6 Texans
<Agathorn>
if you trust CKAN do work yeah
<Agathorn>
s/do/to
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: if you trust CKAN to work yeah
<Pap>
lamont: You have to kinda figure out how far away you are going to be away from each other, also what altitude you are going to be deploying at?
<lamont>
i have communotron 16s
<Agathorn>
in reality you will probably end up with CKAN grabbing 1.3 stuff
<lamont>
and kr-7s
<Hohman>
Mmk.
<Hohman>
Thanks
<Pap>
Ok lamont, with Communotron 16's, they should be able to talk to each other as well as talk to KSP at all times, no need for additional dishes, however, I find it worthwhile to add at least one KR-7 to always point at Active Vessel for future missions
<Rounan>
Agathorn: Is there a list of known CKAN screwups like that? I'm definitely trusting CKAN since the 1.2.2 RO release.... what's broken in my install?
<Agathorn>
not that I know of
<Agathorn>
I just know it always happens and I have seen some people saying as much
<Agathorn>
will greatly depend ong WHEN tyou did it really
<Agathorn>
it will be better now for example than just shortly after KSP releases 1.3
<lamont>
okay but they need to be no more than 8 Mm away, so they won’t be in contact if they’re in GEO
<Rounan>
drat. that makes things more complicated. Is the Golden Sheet still maintained since? Can I verify mod versions against that?
<schnobs>
lamont: 5Mm is nice for a comm network. Going all the way to GEO only increases latency.
<Agathorn>
no idea
<Agathorn>
but i'd say if everythig is working you are probably ok
<Bornholio>
golden sheet is good, i founf that all RO/RP-0 dependencies loaded ckan fine last time (on monday)
<lamont>
(i cheat like NK and have latency turned off)
<schnobs>
well then. The first dish, the small one, is specifically made to fit a GEO comm satellite.
<Bornholio>
comms are additive, just use three 16's
<Pap>
lamont: my typical early ComSat network is the 4 KR-7. One pointed at the vessel in front, one pointed at the vessel behind, one pointed at the KSC and one pointed at Active Vessel
<Rounan>
Bornholio: Thanks. nothing is evidently broken, but then I haven't sent up kerbals yet and I don't know if I'd notice the kind of re-entry heating bugs you guys have been discussing in here. I'd just assume I'd done the re-entry design wrong. :)
<lamont>
yeah 200W tho
<schnobs>
Pap: single KR-7 pointed at earth will do. Has global coverage from Geo (and then some, up to 1000km I think)
<lamont>
i guess you can do that with 2xST3
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Bornholio is now known as Born|toChopwood
<Agathorn>
how can one satelite possible have global coverage?
<Agathorn>
possibly*
<Agathorn>
does it have magical light bending features?
<lamont>
i assume “of side facing it”
<schnobs>
yep.
<Pap>
how does the communotron 16 work for the Moon, but cannot talk to other sateelites in GEO?
<Agathorn>
which wouldn't be global
<Agathorn>
just sayin :p
<schnobs>
It's just that it doesn't have a pinpoint cone, but wide enough to fit the whole earth, and a bit to the sides.
<lamont>
its the root model
<schnobs>
Pap: because earth has rate-a receivers, it can pick up a weak signal.
<lamont>
so communotron 16 to 16 = 4 Mm + sqrt(4Mm + 4Mm) = 8 Mm
<Pap>
thanks schnobs and lamont I used RemoteTech in all of my stock careers and knew how it all worked very well. I will add some math into my spreadsheet of all to see some new values
<lamont>
but comm16 to DSN = 4Mm + sqrt(1.14E14 + 4Mm) = 14 Mm? that seems wrong… wonder if the wiki is outdated...
<schnobs>
It's designed to be "good for the moon" -- everything else is a side effect.
<schnobs>
IIRC a single comm-16 won't last until you leave earth SOI.
<lamont>
yeah it doesn't
<Theysen>
cuts off a little before that yeah
<Theysen>
so you don't get sweet science on a missed flyby attempt
<Theysen>
or impact better
<Theysen>
and putting two on top of it is too heavy for that double stage solid transfer inserstion
<lamont>
lol its not ‘+’ inside the sqrt its ‘*’ …
<lamont>
that helps a bit
<Pap>
Should I make the contracts be really mean, and fail if the player has another type of Satellite Bus Resource? So you cannot accomplish a weather sat and comsat in the same launch, or just let the player decide if they want to go for both contracts by including both resources?
<schnobs>
IOW: launchpad blows up as soon as I release the clamps. Rocket sits far enough above the pad so that it *should* be unnaffected by the landscaping below. Yet it sheds parts.
<Rounan>
Just my opinion, but hopefully at the tech level where you're first seeing those contracts it would be somewhat difficult to launch enough payload to do both?
<Pap>
Rounan: that is what I am hoping as well, but if you want to, you can always use a heavier LV to accomplish it, but that should cost more money
<Theysen>
make spy sats cost double the price
<Rounan>
Pap: Right! Hopefully by a meaningful amount. I think the gameplay you're looking for is best achieved by making the parts you're talking about heavy enough to make that true
<Theysen>
cause range safety and #military
<Rounan>
make it a design challenge rather than a scripted and enforced thing
<Pap>
Rounan: they are pretty realistically heavy. In a 22L volumetric tank, it weighs in at about 1800kg which scales pretty well across the eras
<Rounan>
wait, "ComSatBus" is a resource you put in a procedural tank?
<Pap>
That is a Telstar I "replica" that I made. There might be too much Delta-v, so I might need to scale the weight a little higher, it will change if it needs to through testing
<Pap>
Yes Rounan, I still wanted to allow different style designs from people, also, many of the modern satellites (and military satellites) are huge. Without forcing a player to use a specfiic part, this causes some more design choices
<Pap>
I'll show some examples in a little bit of other satellite buses with the resource added as well
<Rounan>
yeah, I like it! It's just a bit amusing to think of it like that, but I can see how it would allow more flexibility.
<Theysen>
Love the new resource, doesn't feel so blatant as just filling in Lead Weight
<Rounan>
So I'm having trouble getting enough delta-V for orbit after unlocking early contruction and early orbital rocketry. I've got an RD-103M booster with an AJ10-37 sustainer, and a "payload" of the baby sergeant 11x3x1 stack with a sounding rocket core on the x1 tip.
<Pap>
Your baby sergeant numbers look too low for the payload you are launching
<Rounan>
8812 dV. But if I add an AJ10-27 stage before the AJ-37, I only gain 6 dV
<Rounan>
yeah! I thought so too, what's up with that?
<Pap>
Is your staging correct?
<Rounan>
I have #checkyostaging'd, yes.
<Rounan>
oh wow, found it
<Pap>
You should be getting around 4000 delta-v from the Sergeants I think
<Rounan>
no wait, this still doesn't make sense. I had a 2nd sounding rocket core hidden under the top baby, but removing it and reassembling just took the final stage dV from 373 to 668m/s
<Rounan>
the sounding rocket core is .06t, doesn't seem like it should affect it that much
<Pap>
Do you have sputnik unlocked?
<Rounan>
With only the BS stack topped by a sounder, I'm at 3181 vac dV
<Rounan>
no, the researchers are working on early avionics as we speak
<Pap>
The Explorer probe is 0.0415t, it could be that different
<Probus>
Well there's your problem. You have a stack that is BS!
<Pap>
Rounan: trust those numbers, something is not calculating correctly, MJ seems to assume you are carrying some of your previous stages with you
<Rounan>
with 0 payload, the BS stack is 7223 dV
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<Rounan>
Ah. I see my problem. 0.06t is heavy in RO. Who knew. with 0.04t of weight, I do indeed get around 2k dV on the BS stack. Which I agree is total BS, Probus.
<Agathorn>
you sre it is .06 and not .6?
<Agathorn>
I seem to recall there was one probe that was an order of magnitude heavier and I ran into that trap myself
<Rounan>
ayup. sounding rocket core, .06t on the tooltip
<Rounan>
I guess I need to ditch the BS's and switch to liquids? Seems like these are only good for truly tiny payloads.
<Probus>
I've noticed that if you add an extra decoupler at fairing decouplers, MJ often will start calculating correctly.
<Rounan>
yeah, I've seen some weirdness with those parts too.
<Rounan>
ha, like right now. I put the rocket back together and now I'm sitting at 9711 vac dV. I have changed nothing since that number read 8818. Wonkiness abounds!
stratochief|away is now known as stratochief
<stratochief>
could be staging order change/fix
<Qboid>
stratochief: regex left a message for you in #RO [16.06.2017 23:17:49]: "yes, I have started a science mode game."
<stratochief>
Probus: probably better to ask NK and I about the Ro langley lander engine here. i rarely visit the forum, and I'm not sure if NK ever does
<stratochief>
Probus: also, asking about it here gets broader feedback than from just us two schlubs :)
<Probus>
Will do stratochief
<Probus>
Would it be appropriate to open a pull request asking to remove the small Gemini (Langley) Lander engine from RO. In it's current form, it is unrealistic and unbalances RP-0.
<Probus>
After researching it, it looks like there is no good engine to compare it to. They weren't even to the point of setting a fuel type (although 2 were suggested).
<Probus>
Maybe it could be compared to the Apollo LM descent engine at best?
<stratochief>
Probus: I've heard people calling that part a cheaty part for over a year now. but since it has been around in its current form for so long, some people might rebel at it being removed entirely. a middle of the road response might be to mark it RO WIP right now while we consider options
<stratochief>
hmm. well, it seems pretty similar to the LEM ascent engine, other than the throttle range. but IMO RO should have more throttling engines, not fewer
<stratochief>
Probus: what makes you feel that it is unbalanced in RP-0? where it is in the tech tree? the cost? if so, I think those properties should be pretty much the same as the LEM ascent engine, if they currently aren't
<Probus>
The throttling and unlimited ignitions are what stand out to me.
<stratochief>
Agathorn: not a great weather day for you, hey? you and I should definitely switch locations. I bet you'd like my 'feel like 37' Mississauga weather more than I do
<Agathorn>
heh
<stratochief>
Probus: fair enough. but is the 10 ignitions of the LEM ascent engine that different from infinite?
<Agathorn>
its not horrible today but certainly not what I would prefer
<Agathorn>
cloudy and 60f at the moment
<stratochief>
Agathorn: yeah. I call the average weather for Vancouver and San Franscisco 'viking weather', and I'd like to live in either place, ther than the crazy cost of living
<Probus>
stratochief, If you make the Gemini engine use hydrogen as one of the proposals, that would limit its use sufficiently, I believe. If it is hypergolic, then I don't know how you would handle it. If it uses helium to pressurize the propellants, then the burst disk could limit its use.
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<Probus>
But Real Fuels doesn't model that, does it?
<schnobs>
Probus, stratochief : IIRC the gemini lander engine is basicaly a scaled down Apollo Lander thingy. At least in terms of TWR, ISP and so on. Don't talk to me about size and shape.
<stratochief>
Probus: no, real fuels doesn't currently consum helium to run the engine, or per ignition. the additional mass wasted per ignition is handled by IGNITOR_RESOURCE for some other engines, where IIRC it consumes about a second or two of fuel in order to restart
<Rounan>
Are the "tons" referenced in-game short, long, or metric tons?
<stratochief>
Probus: which, IMO, is a reasonable way to abstract/simulate the helium requirement of a real engine. perhaps a PR to add that resource consumption on the ignition would make sense to you?
<stratochief>
Rounan: metric
<schnobs>
Rounan: 1000kg.
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<Rounan>
ok, avionics are much heavier than I thought. cool cool cool.
<Pap>
rsparkyc: are you here?
<rsparkyc>
o/
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: egg|zzz|egg left a message for you in #RO [17.06.2017 07:57:56]: "were you physwarping?"
<Pap>
hello
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<rsparkyc>
hola
<stratochief>
Rounan: avionics mass is adjustable, in that new tech ones are lighter, and procedural avionics 'utilization' lets you trade mass for cost in avionics
<stratochief>
o/ rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
!tell egg* i honestly don't remember, but i saw that the bug was fixed
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
I was thinking about Procedural Avionics again, and looking at what Leudeimon laid out
<rsparkyc>
o/ stratochief
<egg|zzz|egg>
rsparkyc: yeah, we managed to reproduce something akin to it
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: rsparkyc left a message for you in #RO [17.06.2017 17:56:27]: "i honestly don't remember, but i saw that the bug was fixed"
<Pap>
I think that the mass should decrease instead of just the utilization
<rsparkyc>
awesome, i'll try it next time lamont pushes out a new build
<stratochief>
Probus: if you have a response to that, you should !tell me, 'cause I'm about to go away again :)_
<Pap>
There is a point where I have a 2m Launch Vehicle and to keep my LV streamlined, I want to use a 2m Avionics "ring", at some point it gets too small
<rsparkyc>
Pap, honestly as long as mass:tonnage ratio get's better, that should be all that matters
<rsparkyc>
ahh, i see what you mean by that
<Rounan>
stratochief: Ya, I've played with that a bit. Can I beat the sounding rocket core's mass by going procedural though? 60kg seems like a lot for something so small....
<Pap>
Because I was on board with that philosophy as well, but when I get down to a 10 cm tall avionics core, it just doesn't work well
<stratochief>
Rounan: not sure, at least not for a reasonable cost at such early tech. I often spin up my last few stages, and go without real avionics control, just stage solids
<Probus>
I'm mulling it over. Yes that makes sense to me. Its ISP needs to be lower and its cost should be around the cost of an Apollo descent engine.
<Rounan>
stratochief: that's my goal! But I need some kind of avionics to stage, right? I'm looking for the lightest possible, thought that was the sounder.
<Agathorn>
not to stage
<Agathorn>
just to control
<Agathorn>
IE you can still hit spacebar without them
<Probus>
The bell would be a lot smaller and therefor reduce the ISP stratochief
<Agathorn>
but you can't stear or control throttle beyond max throttle withou
<stratochief>
Probus: possibly yes about the cost, but I disagree that the ISP should be worse. as schnobs says, it is just a slightly scaled lunar descent engine
Agathorn is now known as Agathorn|Food
<lamont>
rsparkyc: building
<stratochief>
Probus: why wouldn't the bell be just as optimized as the ascent engine is?
<Starwaster>
pap SDHI avvionidscring?
<rsparkyc>
Pap, it sounds like the size of the avionics units can be adjusted by changing the avionics density (which is also configurable)
<Rounan>
oh! the description is misleading then, since the sounding core explicitly only allows staging and not control
<rsparkyc>
but honestly it will need some playing around with
<Pap>
ah, that works for me rsparkyc
<Rounan>
strongly implying that without it, you can't even do that
<Probus>
Just because it visually looks a lot smaller that the Apollo version stratochief
<stratochief>
Probus: meh, the visual used is just a limitation of the model we have available. could just as easily be the ascent engine slightly scaled down, if you want to imagine it that way?
<Agathorn|Food>
Rounan: maybe I am remebering wrong
<Agathorn|Food>
Easily tested in a sim though
<Rounan>
yup, on it.
<Probus>
stratochief, since the Gemini engine is earlier technology, that could also justify a reduction of ISP.
<stratochief>
Probus: but, would it be earlier tech, really? it would have been developed at the same time as the LEM engines were, maybe plus/minus 6 months, from the same heritage
<Probus>
I thought it was more than that. Let me take a look.
<stratochief>
Probus: I think I said this earlier, but if the gemini lander engine should be in the same tech node in RP-0 as the LEM ascent engine, if it isn't already
<stratochief>
IMO
<Pap>
I am down to $410, with 3 rockets queued. If they do not make an impact on the Moon, my career is sunk
<stratochief>
Pap: threaten to fire one at a rival nation, demand money in order to not do it? ie. Best Korea strategy
<Pap>
Good plan
<Probus>
Its a 1961 proposal vs. a 1963 proposal for the Apollo engine. Is that enough time stratochief?
<stratochief>
Probus: IMO, they would have ended up just the same. what matters is where they unlock in our tech tree, IMO. proposal specs aren't entirely relevant here I think.
<Probus>
OK. I can agree with that.
<acharles>
Pap: That’s cutting it close.
<Pap>
I know, damn Agathorn and is never ending failures
<acharles>
revert is always possible :P
<stratochief>
Probus: glad to hear it. I was choking on my own IMO sandwiches at this point :P
<Rounan>
yeah, the temptation to revert is strong after 1st-stage engine failures
<Pap>
Alright, here comes the launch of Warhawk 1, headed to the Moon?
<Probus>
:) One other thing to consider stratochief. The bell on the Apollo lander would crush on landing. Since the Gemini engine must also be used for ascent, then bell size would probably smaller?
<Rounan>
pap: is this a space race career?
<Pap>
Rounan: no, a tech tree test career
<stratochief>
Probus: or, just longer legs? I don't think the engine crushing was a crucial, integral element of the landing, just a distinct planned for possibility?
<Pap>
I have been a little too focused on the tech, not paying attention to my program
<Pap>
And also during launches I have been modding while not paying enough attention to MJ who is obviously working for the Soviets
<Probus>
It was by design stratochief. Legs are heavy I guess.
<stratochief>
Probus: I had thought the engine didn't crush on every landing. personally, I design my landers with long enough legs and slow enough landing to not a-splode the descent engine
<Probus>
No, you are right stratochief. Only 15 and 17 had the extended bell.
<stratochief>
Probus: interesting. was that for the heavier payload landing, such as bringing along the lunar rover, more LS?
<Probus>
I bet you're right.
<Pap>
But why not 16?
<Pap>
Was 16 an easier landing site?
<stratochief>
but i thought that at least a few of the other landers had rovers and longer duration (J-class), but I could be wrong. I'm not a lunar landing nut :P
<Pap>
Only 15, 16, 17
<Pap>
11-the first, 12 to targeted landing near Surveyor, 13-failure, 14-repeat 13 landing site, 15-17 J Class
<stratochief>
gotcha. so, extended crushable nozzle for improved landing capacity J-class LEM. cool beans.
<stratochief>
Agathorn|Food: figure 14 on the Musk Mars paper is somewhat mind blowing
<stratochief>
something like 600T cargo capacity to throw TMI, when taking the slow ~3.1-3.5 km/s TMI route
<stratochief>
possibly crushable, but doesn't appear crushed to me?
stratochief is now known as stratochief|away
<Pap>
Damn, my solids only final stage missed hitting the Moon, but I will get the flyby contract
<schnobs>
I'm pretty certain I read jokes like "..s Armstrong tried to find a suitably-sized rock to crush the nozzle against" or words to that effect.
<stratochief|away>
Pap: didn't carry the ~20-50 m/s RCS required to fine tune the final trajectorty to crash?
<Pap>
stratochief|away: unguided, no avionics
<Pap>
20in X-Ray Detector on its way
<stratochief|away>
Pap: yikes. is that like Pioneer 2?
<Pap>
essentailly, yes
<soundnfury>
Pap: yeah, beware of that, I lost about four months in RIS lobbing unguided probes at the Moon and missing
<Pap>
yeah, I would have gone with guided, but as I said, out of money and couldn't afford the 30,000 to unlock the Early Controllable Probe or Procedural Avionics upgrade for probe control
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<Pap>
And there it is, Warhawk I, the probe that saved the space agency at closest apporach of 3.5 Mm
<stratochief|away>
is that 3500 km? what is the max altitude required to succeed at first lunar flyby now?
<Pap>
5000, same as before
<Duncan>
Hey the early communication network contract - I assume the launches have to be times so that the distances between the orbits are correct
<Duncan>
it there a rule of thumb for how to time it correctly?
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egg|zzz|egg is now known as egg|nomz|egg
<Duncan>
Anyone? I feel like they need to be 90 degrees apart, but I dont know if that means launch when the last one is overhead, or when it is already 90 degrees away, or something in between.
<Pap>
Duncan: are you launching the 4 sat version?
<Duncan>
planning to
<Pap>
OK, at what altitude are you planning on putting them?
<soundnfury>
Duncan: use the appropriate Keplerian equations to compute the time of half an orbit on your transfer orbit, find out what fraction of an orbit in the target orbit that is, compute the appropriate angle
<soundnfury>
or just launch when the last one is overhead and pack 100m/s for a patient phasing maneuver ;)
<Duncan>
100 is enough?
<soundnfury>
Duncan: sure, if you're patient :P
<soundnfury>
once you've circularised, you can change longitude / mean anomaly with arbitrarily little Δv
<soundnfury>
the less you use, the more orbits it takes to gain / trail by enough angle
<Duncan>
true
<Duncan>
I might have to do it that way, math is not my strong suit
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<Duncan>
the engine I am using is a bit too powerful for small corrections, what is recommended for that?
<schnobs>
RCS?
<soundnfury>
Duncan: I often stick a 138N RCS unit on a satellite to use as its OMS thruster
Born|toChopwood is now known as Bornholio
<soundnfury>
ooh, venus flyby unlocks all these tier-2 venus contracts with nice big advances and 4-year deadlines.
<soundnfury>
omnomnom money kthxpap
<Pap>
good luck soundnfury, you can't aerobrake, gonna need a lot of delta-v!
<soundnfury>
Pap: can't I though?
<Pap>
Well, you are better than me, I just always explode when trying to aerobrake enouigh to capture
<Theysen>
no you can't ;)
<soundnfury>
fairly sure I've managed to aerobrake at Venus before; and I don't seem to be seeing the same DRE bugs as everyone else
<soundnfury>
(bugs, sure, but different ones)
<Theysen>
unless you want to spend hours fine tuning the periapsis and getting enough stuff between the heatshield and the important stuff
<Theysen>
with the lunar hs it goes poof
<Theysen>
from the RO forum:
<Theysen>
"does enybody knows how to build a plane
<Theysen>
"
<Bornholio>
yes. .smirk rcs build aid
<Theysen>
Please write that in an email to boeing and airbus, they might help you ffs
<Pap>
Theysen: send them a picture of a Real World plane and tell them to copy that design
<Theysen>
Funny enough, thanks to FAR and RSS - that works
<Pap>
I know it does
* Pap
still can't make planes
<Bornholio>
Piper cub
<Pap>
in fairness, haven't tried
<schnobs>
Have you been talking about braking at venus, or capture?
<Bornholio>
loer take off speed that a ford mustang
<Bornholio>
lower
<Theysen>
taxi to runway on a 30kts windy day from runway heading in a C172. Pull up, profit
<Bornholio>
seen that
<Pap>
schnobs: he needs to brake at venus in order to capture
<Theysen>
Pap, dont even bother with the runway glitches, more likely you win the lottery than departing from that
<Pap>
yea, i'll wait till 1.3
<Bornholio>
pipers like grass, they eat it too
<Theysen>
my X-1 flew like a charm after I airlaunched it :D
<Theysen>
on runway takeoffs it was depending on where the seam hit me or not
<Pap>
was the X-1 air launched like the x-15?
<Theysen>
No, Vanguard on the bottom ...
<Theysen>
just needed enough horizontal to decouple
<Theysen>
costed a fortune in relation to payout but I liek plens
<Qboid>
lamont: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Agathorn>
so somehow I always knew that the very first run oif my simulation code would contain an interesting bug, and I wasn't dissapointed
<Agathorn>
My physics code was adding a new force every fixedupdate for the stage thrust, so essentially 50 times a second the rocket was gaining a new engine
<Pap>
Brings new meaning to MOAR boosters Agathorn
<Theysen>
He found this ONE SIMPLE TRICK - NASA manufacturers hate him!
<Agathorn>
lol
<Theysen>
doesn't help my head's imagining a rocket shitting engines out the back, rip brain
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<egg|nomz|egg>
lamont: there's a cauchy tag now :-p
<soundnfury>
Pap: I was talking about braking to land, not orbital capture (that *is* hard at Venus ;)
<lamont>
oh so there is
<soundnfury>
Theysen: Gosper glider gun. Or better still, the rake (it's a glider gun gun)
<lamont>
the tarball even has that in its name as well
<schnobs>
soundnfury: I never had any trouble with capture at Venus. Lunar-rated shield, PE about 90km, and that's that.
<schnobs>
A soft landing, though.... never had any luck with parachutes. I use control surfaces as aerobreakes.
<lamont>
you have to use kevlar chutes
<schnobs>
even those gave me trouble.
<Bornholio>
kevlar drag chutes, small ones are fine
<schnobs>
Brakes work a treat, though.
<Bornholio>
big shute rip off in high pressure
<Bornholio>
or open them way up
<Bornholio>
venus descent is mean, only thing worse was jupiter
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<rtnb>
I just started a new install of RSS/RO/RP-0 and my VAB doesn't have the hotkey assignment button/window available
<rtnb>
any idea why?
<Bornholio>
settings for alway have hotkeys off, did you change the default settings?
<rtnb>
hmm no, is that in the main menu settings?
<Bornholio>
Settings--->difficulty--->Always Allow hotkey, something like that
<Bornholio>
Though is should have been configed that way by default in my memory
<Agathorn>
hmm pretty sure my drag values are waaaay off
<rtnb>
Bornholio: not seeing that option anywhere
<Bornholio>
let me boot
<Agathorn>
Cd looks suspiciously small
<Agathorn>
near burnout:
<Agathorn>
velocity: 683.1483
<Agathorn>
Cd: 1.742339E-09
<Agathorn>
Re: 4.304557E+08
<Agathorn>
Drag: 0.002032025
<Bornholio>
yes thats a cd for metamaterial smoothness teardrops
<Agathorn>
sooper wocket
<Bornholio>
rocket shape reasonable roughness Mach 2, ~.2-.3 Cd
<Agathorn>
Cd = N/Re -- so I guess my N is way too small?
<Agathorn>
what wouild sane values of N be?
<Agathorn>
I was using 0.75
<Bornholio>
it that Re reasonalbe i'd say yes not noing otherwise for submerged high velocity
<Agathorn>
but now that I see that Re gets to be super high
<Bornholio>
wow did i type that...
<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
I need to deretmine 1. Are my Re values sane for my vehicle (and I can provide more data if needed) and 2. What would be an expected constant N when Cd = N/Re
<Agathorn>
If my Re values are sane, then they are far higher than I expected so my chosen constant is nowhere near right
<Agathorn>
soft ferram4 ping.. IE feel free to ignore if you want to :)
<Agathorn>
going to throw telemetry up on pastbin
<Bornholio>
rtnb almost there, agathorn Re's look sane without looking up table values they should be fully turbulent ie >500k
<rtnb>
Bornholio i found the setting
<ferram4>
Agathorn, at what altitude, and what is your reference length?
<rtnb>
but when I enable it it switches from Hard to custom
<Bornholio>
ok good deal
<rtnb>
it never used to do that before
<rtnb>
i thought it was enabled by default
<Agathorn>
ferram4: one sec, i'm grabbing my log
<Bornholio>
.shrug normally i think so
<Agathorn>
which I apparently didn't write to properly..so gimme a sec to type up the values from the debug console
<Agathorn>
I'll just include the tick before burnout for now
<ferram4>
Agathorn, also, Cd is not necessarily inversely proportional to Re
<Bornholio>
rtnb not sure if hard settings are appropriate, maybe depending on what you are using, but hard is really hard if KCT+ normal options
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<Theysen>
rtnb, just set fund penalties to 100% on hard, it's intended to be played on hard :)
<Agathorn>
ferram4: Well I was trying to get soem formula that would give me a representative Cd that varied by Re similiar to: http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/pics/cd2.gif and the Cd = N/Re is what was suggested in here
<Agathorn>
but my N constant was clearly wrong giuven that I didn't know what to use there and I didn't realiuze Re got so large
<ferram4>
Well, the problem with that is that Cd doesn't drop to 0 at Re -> infinity
<Agathorn>
would I be better off just literally encoding a Cd curve to use?
<Agathorn>
and then not even bother calculating Re at all?
<ferram4>
Probably. Coding against Mach number makes more sense, with Re only providing modifications to that, if at all.
<Agathorn>
yeah I can just encode this curve as a Cd vs Mach curve
<Agathorn>
then do a lookup on velocity and plug it into the general drag equation I am using
<Agathorn>
which is currently: dragForce = 0.5f * body.AtmosphereDensity * (velocity * velocity) * Cd * crossSectionalArea;
<Agathorn>
oh just realized there were two numbers I think you asked for that I forgot to put into the pastebin.. Cross Section = 4.08, and length 10.2
<Agathorn>
anyway that may be the best way to come at this so let me give it a try
<Agathorn>
does mach speed vary enough that I should calculate it, or is the variation small enouigh to be good enough for government work
<Agathorn>
eh doesn't appear to change that much so i'll just use a constant for nw
egg|nomz|egg is now known as egg
<Duncan>
I have a probe where I cant turn rcs off, and cant activate rcs, but if I engage mechjeb it can use all the rcs. It seems like I cant manually adjust throttle but mechjeb can
<Duncan>
what could be causing that?
<Rounan>
I've seen that before with RemoteTech
<Rounan>
but I think it was back in 1.1
<Rounan>
RT would prevent manual control, but MJ wasn't affected.
<Rounan>
Duncan: are you on KSP 1.2?
<Duncan>
yes
<Duncan>
is there a reason I would be having remotetech issues? The map view registers multple connections
<Agathorn>
ferram4, Bornholio ok with an encoded curve and using Mach Number based on a constant speed of sound, I am getting drag forces while under acceleration but just before burnout of around 61,000 with a velocity of 274 at 3,420 altitude
<Agathorn>
To me that now sounds like the opposite problem of it being really large, but I don't know enough to judge
<ferram4>
61,000 whats?
<Agathorn>
well should be base units, so m/s*s?
<Agathorn>
Thats what force is right?
<Bornholio>
6100G hmmm nice
<ferram4>
No... force is Newtons. kg*m/s^2
<ferram4>
m/s^2 is acceleration
<Rounan>
Duncan: you have enough electric charge? If so, it doesn't sound like it's working right. I've only seen that behaviour when I shouldn't be able to control
<Agathorn>
As you know i'm very bad at this so I might have that wrong, but I've been trying real hard to make sure every num,ber passed in, is in base SI units
<Bornholio>
right, what mass vessel
<Agathorn>
mass at that pont just before burnout was.. 693kg
NathanKell|AWAY is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<Agathorn>
hey
<Duncan>
no its not that. I think the rcs is not firing because of the same issue I had earlier, that it is too close to CoM
<Duncan>
but that does not explain the other symptoms
<Duncan>
I will do some more test
<Rokker>
NathanKell: im at a wedding reception sat at a table with family friends
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: just ran my simulation engine for the first time, trying to determine if i'm, getting sane values or not out of it :) Think i'm driving ferram4 crazy with my non engineer ways lol
<Rokker>
the guy next to me happens to be head of the team in charge of engine integration for SLS
<ferram4>
Agathorn, you had a 10.2 m rocket, with a 4.08 m^2 cross-section, and this thing somehow only weighed 693 kg at burnout...
<Bornholio>
^
<NathanKell>
stratochief|away, Probus: Making a pressure-fed hypergolic engine that only fires in vacuum both infinite-relight and throttleable is...just not that hard. Also, remmber that what matters is Ae/At, not merely nozzle size--the Langley one has a smaller nozzle but presumably a proportionally smaller throat. A throttleable version of the LM Ascent engine would only be a bit heavier, and more expensive,
<NathanKell>
nothing more.
<Agathorn>
yeah you got a point there!
<Rokker>
NathanKell: ES EL ES
<Agathorn>
hmm
<Agathorn>
well its not that far off
<Agathorn>
the dry mass of Vanguard 1st was 811kg
<NathanKell>
Rokker: Whoah.
<Bornholio>
ok but after releasse of much smaller size
<Duncan>
the trouble with space engineering is that you can have 3 separate problem with the same symptoms, meaning trouble shooting the causes is very hard
<Agathorn>
just to be clear, this simulation is a fictional vanguard 1st stage rocket - wioth no other stages or anything upstage
<Rokker>
NathanKell: old family friend
<NathanKell>
Duncan, you're the one with the sounding rocket core? Or was that rtnb?
<Agathorn>
its literally a Vanguard 1st stage tank and engine launched straight up
<Rokker>
his daughter and I used to play goldeneye in his basement
<NathanKell>
Rokker: A very important one evidently :D
<Agathorn>
in my sim it got to about 3.4km altitude
<Rokker>
NathanKell: he was working in propulsion when afro started working with reaction engines on SABRE, iirc
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: That mass flow thing, when they told you it they forgot to mention the 9.81
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Burn time = mass * 9.80665 * Isp / thrust
<NathanKell>
(assuming mass in tonnes and thrust in kN)
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<ferram4>
Or that mass is in kg and thrust in N
<ferram4>
Just keep your scaling in mind.
<NathanKell>
Yeah, or grams and mN
<Agathorn>
^ is that not right? Those are both the base units
<Agathorn>
I'm trying to store and work with everything in the SI base units as indicated on Wikipedia
<NathanKell>
what formula are you using?
<NathanKell>
and hwat are your units?
<NathanKell>
what8
<NathanKell>
what**
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: for which
<ferram4>
EVERYTHING
<NathanKell>
for all of this :P
<Agathorn>
lol
<Agathorn>
ok so properties are in meters, kilograms, and newtons for length, mass, and thrust
<soundnfury>
o/ NathanKell
<NathanKell>
Heya snf
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Ok
<Agathorn>
the gravity component I think I can skip because it looks right to me
<soundnfury>
just did my lunar lander
<Duncan>
I have dozens of exceptions in my log
<Agathorn>
air drag component is calculating drag as thus: dragForce = 0.5f * body.AtmosphereDensity * (velocity * velocity) * this.CoefficientOfDrag.Evaluate(velocity / 322f) * crossSectionalArea;
<soundnfury>
btw, I think you're actually ahead of me in R&D rate
<Theysen>
Agathorn, that mass flow equation you asked for this morning, there needs to be another g_0
<Agathorn>
that is using a Cd curve based on Mach Number
<soundnfury>
plus I haven't even started the R&D building upgrade yet
<soundnfury>
(you have _so much_ money dammit)
<Agathorn>
(velocity above is the velocity vector magnitude)
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: You need to get mach by altitude, it's not constant
<Agathorn>
yeah I know
<ferram4>
For now, this is a safe approximation though
<NathanKell>
ok
<ferram4>
It won't cause that level of error
<Agathorn>
it didn't seem to vary THAT much so using a constant for now
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: ...ah. :]
<Agathorn>
atmopshere density above is 1.225 (not sure the units..got it off a table)
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: Yeah, at most what, 23% variation?
<ferram4>
kg/m^3
<ferram4>
And is accurate.
<NathanKell>
wait density isn't varying?
<ferram4>
But density must vary
<NathanKell>
^
<NathanKell>
^^^^^^^^^^^
<ferram4>
That error will be hilarious otherwise.
<ferram4>
Seriously.
<NathanKell>
:D
<Agathorn>
thought pressure varied, but dentiy only slightly
<Agathorn>
hmm
<NathanKell>
....density is proportional to pressure
<ferram4>
Yes. As it turns out, that is correct.
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<ferram4>
Now use the ideal gas law, and calculate the air temp at the edge of the atmosphere.
<ferram4>
Go ahead, I'll wait.
<Theysen>
:D
<ferram4>
Yes, I'm trolling.
<Agathorn>
Yeah i'm also cxheating and not adjusting air temp at the moent.. How much is this affecting things? :)
<soundnfury>
ferram4: eleventy billion? and four?
<Agathorn>
I thought it would be like maybe a few perecent
<ferram4>
Ignoring air temp alone isn't that bad.
<ferram4>
But ignoring air density.
<Rokker>
NathanKell: ah that clears it up, he's the head of the contracted team for integration, not NASA integration
<NathanKell>
ahhhh
<ferram4>
So... air density drops to ~37% at 5km
<NathanKell>
yeah, that makes sense given location
<Agathorn>
I'm using an average airtemp of 294k
<ferram4>
Or is it 7.5km
<Agathorn>
and an air pressure lookup curve
<NathanKell>
ferram4: I think it must be 7.5km
<ferram4>
I don't remember the scale height for earth.
<Bornholio>
lol
<NathanKell>
~7km
<Theysen>
8.5 iirc
<ferram4>
Agathorn, I gather this isn't KSP?
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<ferram4>
Right, read scrollback
<NathanKell>
This is Buzz Agathorn's Race Into Space
<UmbralRaptor>
7 - 8.5 km is the range for reasonableish temperatures.
<Rokker>
NathanKell: actually he's based out of msfc
<Rokker>
now
<Agathorn>
ok so all the charts I see just adjust density by temp which is why I thought iwas a constant if I was using a constant temp
<schnobs>
recently I doodled a little and came to the result that if there was an air column to make up the atmospheric pressure, it would be about 7km high.
<Rokker>
he's just here for the wedding
<Bornholio>
about 1/3 Atm at 7500m
<Agathorn>
ferram4: correct this is my game;s sim engine I am working on
<NathanKell>
Rokker: Ah
<ferram4>
Okay. The approximation you'll be using.
<ferram4>
It will be density = density_SL * e^(alt/scale_height)
<ferram4>
You know density at SL.
<ferram4>
You will find the scale height
<ferram4>
And now it won't fail so much
<ferram4>
That's a very rough approx, but it'll do the job for now.
<Bornholio>
100kpa, 50kpa@5km for sanity checking
<Agathorn>
btw I lkeft me simulated stage coasting and it seemed to be takign a lot longer to slow down than I would expect :(
<Agathorn>
at 7.254m alt, coasting straight up it has a drag force of -9.5 whatevers at the moment
<Bornholio>
you are submach and rocket shaped it should go a long way barring gravity accel
<Agathorn>
I guess
<Agathorn>
but in KSP it always seemed to run out of oomph fairly fast
<Agathorn>
when coasting
<Bornholio>
gravity
<Agathorn>
I have gravity
<Bornholio>
9.8m/s2
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: when is stream o'clock tonight?
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: fairly soon
<Agathorn>
-9.797327 at the moent based on altitude
<NathanKell>
weekend (tm)
<UmbralRaptor>
ferram4: s/alt/-alt/
<Qboid>
UmbralRaptor thinks ferram4 meant to say: It will be density = density_SL * e^(-alt/scale_height)
<Ram>
quick question before I dive into hours of debugging: anyone has an idea as to why I would have no cloud and no sunflare when I installed RSSVE-1.2.2.1622-RC3 with scatterer following the instructions on http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/153511-122-real-solar-system-visual-enhancements-v122-rc3-2017-02-26/
<ferram4>
Agathorn, you gotta track your units. Seriously.
<UmbralRaptor>
(That sign error will nail you)
<ferram4>
Oh, true.
<NathanKell>
Ram: did you get EVE too?
<ferram4>
Well, the result would be obvious though.
<Ram>
yes
<Agathorn>
ferram4: yeah I do and i'm VERY bad at it.. that was why I intentionally made sure to sdtore EVERYTHING using SI base units
<UmbralRaptor>
(Something something always carefully check your algebra)
<Agathorn>
fiogured if I did that then surely my units should be correct?
<Theysen>
Ram, easiest way: send a pic of your gamedata folder please
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<NathanKell>
then I dunno, sorry. Never had a problem following the RSSVE instructions
<NathanKell>
Theysen has it tho :)
<ferram4>
Agathorn, keep track of it though. If everything is "whatevers" then only one screwup and all of a sudden you're off by a factor of fuckoff.
<soundnfury>
right, time to test-fly my dime-store Mercury-Atlas knock-off
<Agathorn>
:)
<soundnfury>
(I made my own escape tower out of sep motors :)
<Theysen>
pfff, escape towers..
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: like ya do :)
<Theysen>
just dead weight for carrying away dead bodies in my case lol
<NathanKell>
Very happy my spessplane works tho
<Theysen>
that thing is sexy indeed
<NathanKell>
Shame there isn't a first for spessplanes, but not sure how you'd do it
<ferram4>
Take off, land at the same place, don't drop anything?
<ferram4>
Don't drop anything that doesn't also have a pilot or something that can recover it, + mod to handle that?
<Theysen>
check for recovery and the total wing area or so? to not cheat the contract
<NathanKell>
Ah, I don't mean SSTO spaceplanes
<NathanKell>
I just mean a winged RV
<NathanKell>
you're right SSTO (or flyback) is ok to contract
<NathanKell>
Theysen: Yeah, wing area is probably the way to go
<Theysen>
anybody did build a SSTO in RO yet? with realistic parts?
<NathanKell>
need to make a reflective binder for CC tho
<NathanKell>
Theysen: I came very close once, a few years ago. Runways >.>
<NathanKell>
No cargo capacity tho
<NathanKell>
I mean, I've built rocket ones, they're easy
<NathanKell>
"easy"
<ferram4>
Of course.
<Theysen>
Yeah no doubt
<ferram4>
So what you do
<ferram4>
Is you get PSRBs, and modify the limits
<ferram4>
And you make one GIANT SRB
<Ram>
NathanKell: ok thanks, another question : what thread should I use to install RSSVE? the RO thread links to what seems to be an old http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/75157-wip105-rss-visual-enhancements-rve/
<Agathorn>
Just for reference finishing up this sim before I change the drag equation.. My simulated Vanguard 1st stage burning straiught up for to an altitude of 7,568m before starting to fall back to Earth
<Agathorn>
s/for/got
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: Just got reference finishing up this sim before I change the drag equation.. My simulated Vanguard 1st stage burning straiught up for to an altitude of 7,568m before starting to fall back to Earth
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<Agathorn>
lol sed I hate you
<Theysen>
Agathorn, isn't that a little low?
<Agathorn>
beats me
<Agathorn>
someone try it in KSP :)
<Agathorn>
just the stage nothing above it
<Agathorn>
basically tank and engine
<ferram4>
Yeah, with no payload, that sounds low.
<Agathorn>
well once I refactored this density equation i'll run another sim
<ferram4>
Remember, short burn AJ10 and then a solid to get Vanguard in orbit on top of that.
<Theysen>
2 min 25 s or a burn time, I used that rocket today for orbit and it decoupled ~50km up
<Theysen>
going 3000m/s a second above surface? Can't quite remember
<Agathorn>
its also btw quite likely my burn is off, especially given what NathanKell|Twitch and Theysen said about my mass flow
<Agathorn>
not sure on which side of off it is
<Theysen>
yeah please add the g_0 in F_thrust = mass_flow * I_sp * g_0
<Theysen>
I goofed on that
<Agathorn>
what is g_0 is that little g, ie 9.82?
<Theysen>
yeha
<Agathorn>
k
<Theysen>
i don't know how to underscore in irc
<UmbralRaptor>
9.8 give or take.
<Theysen>
10
<NathanKell|Twitch>
pap is it intentional venus atmo probe does not require a new vessel?
<Theysen>
eas
<NathanKell|Twitch>
or the other venus advanced contracts
<UmbralRaptor>
Just use effective exhaust velocity, and have one less constant to deal with.
<UmbralRaptor>
:D
<Agathorn>
UmbralRaptor: don't have it
<ferram4>
Effective exhasut velocity = Isp * g_0
<Theysen>
or derived from the nozzle geometry and other funny variables
<Theysen>
because UmbralRaptor wanted to evade the g_0 if i understand his joke correctly :D
<Agathorn>
I think UmbralRaptormeant using a sotred value otherwise, it doesn't eliminate anything if I calculate it :p
<Bornholio>
oh Agathorn the problem is vanguard it only makes it to 1.2m on its first fligh .smirk
<Theysen>
badummtss
<Agathorn>
Bornholio: never heard that one before :p
* Theysen
is off to bed. o/ all
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<UmbralRaptor>
Not entirely joking. More of that Isp is just a notation thing from an era of feet-pounds-pounds-seconds
<UmbralRaptor>
(guess which of the above pounds is mass, and which is force)
<Agathorn>
yeah but i'm not inclined to buck the system at this point
<UmbralRaptor>
Whereas, the speed at which the exhaust is exiting the engine is closer to the physics.
<Agathorn>
I have enough trouble keeping things correct without going into esoterica because you don't like Isp being measured in seconds :D
<Bornholio>
Vanguard TV-3 reaching record lows, named Kaputnik
<Agathorn>
anyway.. new sim time..let's see what we get
<UmbralRaptor>
Explaining Isp * g0, and that g0 is just a constant (and does not vary with location) trips up so many newbies. =\
<UmbralRaptor>
Anyway...
<Agathorn>
drag is obscenely high
<Agathorn>
basically like the rocket is trying to move up through sand lol
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<Bornholio>
Give new meaning to go pound sand
<Agathorn>
yeah my air density calc is way off
<ferram4>
Agathorn, what is your Cd?
<Agathorn>
cD is around 0.29 at lifoff
<Agathorn>
Cd*
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<Agathorn>
arg caps lock
<Agathorn>
I just flubbed my density calc obviously
<ferram4>
What is it at peak drag?
<Agathorn>
going back to double check it
<Agathorn>
peak should be about 0.55
<Ram>
so hard to troubleshoot RSSVE problems with a 10 minutes load time for KSP RO FeelsBadMan
<Bornholio>
sounds somewhat sane
<Bornholio>
somewhere between bullet and roundnose
<Bornholio>
peachk should happen at Mach 1.4ish
<Bornholio>
peak
<Agathorn>
huh my air density is now dropping off to 0.. arg
<Agathorn>
oh wait
<Agathorn>
units
<Bornholio>
altitude agathorn?
<Agathorn>
ferram4: you called it btw.. unis just bit me lol
<Agathorn>
I had scakle height in km instead of meters
<ferram4>
Toldya
<Agathorn>
looking better now
<Agathorn>
mass flow is clearly wrong now though
<Agathorn>
burned for 3 minutes and still had prop left
<Bornholio>
ah vanguard first stage should be 2 min 25 s for ISP 248 assuming you have the same fuel amount
<soundnfury>
ah shit I forgot about this, fasa mercury nose cap is buggy and doesn't decouple
<Agathorn>
yeah
<Agathorn>
but this isn't identical
<Agathorn>
just close
<Agathorn>
actuaslly, nowe that I think about it this tank is goign to have a good chunmk more fuel
<soundnfury>
(object thrower to the rescue)
<Agathorn>
foir the 3m23s I just timed might not be crazy
<Agathorn>
s/foir/so
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: so the 3m23s I just timed might not be crazy
<Agathorn>
geesh
<Bornholio>
in the bounds of sanity
<Agathorn>
that balmer peak sucks for typing on chat :D
<Bornholio>
lol, too much or too little
<Agathorn>
probably too litle in honesty
<Agathorn>
only 1 rum & coke
<Bornholio>
8 hours of hauling branches has left my fingers half dead, i could use that R&C
<Agathorn>
huh
<Agathorn>
still getting (vbery miniscukle) drag outside the atmosphere
<Bornholio>
had a storm
<Agathorn>
up to nearly 600km and still coasting
<Bornholio>
um function of density calc still atmos up there just suppa thin
<Agathorn>
err wait my velocity isn't dropping..something is broken
<Agathorn>
I have a - net force yet my velocity is constant heh
<Bornholio>
good luck.
Bornholio is now known as Borntoeat
<Agathorn>
yeah going to take a break myself
Agathorn is now known as Agathorn|Away
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: sls confirmed jobs program
<Rokker>
to fill jobs killed by Obama in the constellation cut
<Rokker>
reuse shuttle parts borne out of the Obama admin not wanting to devote time and money to new launcher
<Rokker>
NathanKell|Twitch: running into numerous issues with redundancy on the rl10
<ferram4>
Rokker, what even is the current intended configuration for later SLS?
<Rokker>
ferram4: 4 x RL10
<ferram4>
Ah, so nothing has really changed, still S-IV-lite
<Rokker>
ferram4: aye
<Rokker>
ferram4: haven't even started on integration yet afaik
<ferram4>
SLS is never gonna happen, I think.
<Rokker>
ferram4: disagree
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<Rokker>
ferram4: altho the actions at Michaud do cast doubt on that
<Rokker>
ferram4: they keep fucking up on the tank
<Rokker>
michoud
<Rokker>
ferram4: they fucking friction stir welded a whole fucking tank
<Rokker>
and found out they fucked the welds
<ferram4>
>_<
<Rokker>
and then they dropped a dome last month
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vHhKi
<Rokker>
ferram4: 6 years and they forget how to build something
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<Agathorn>
I don't think i'm applying gravity properly
Borntoeat is now known as Bornholio
<Bornholio>
is it altitude function?
<Agathorn>
I mean i'm calculating it properly I think.. I get the classic 9.8x out of my math but how much of that force is applied each tick I think I am erring
<Agathorn>
I added a standard unity rigidbody with the same mass and it drops like a rocket where as my rocket with no thrust just kind of floats down :p
<Agathorn>
so the amount of force applied each tick must be wrongh
<Bornholio>
doesn't unity have a stock gravity physics model you can use
<Agathorn>
yeah but I don't want to use it
<Agathorn>
for now anyway
<Bornholio>
ah well that is that
<Agathorn>
trying to do it all myself :) But i'm using it for comparison here
<Agathorn>
in one physics tick with nothing but mass and gravity, the rigid body drops .003m whereas my rocket drops .0000036m
<Agathorn>
first tick I should clarify
<Agathorn>
so yeah i'm doing something wrong
<NathanKell|Twitch>
sounds like you're off by 1000
<NathanKell|Twitch>
units, like ferram said :P
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<Agathorn>
maybe but I think there is more to it than that
<Agathorn>
like I said when I calculate gravity I get the classical 9.8xx
<Agathorn>
I then add that as a force to my rocket which in each FixedUpdate sums the forces and then applies then scaled by deltatime
<NathanKell>
that's not a force
<NathanKell>
that's an accel
<Agathorn>
now I think I had a bug that was causing a double time scale but heck even removing the time scale COMPLETELY I still am too slow
<Bornholio>
are you chopping the time delta for gravity somehoew
<NathanKell>
how exactly are you applying gravity
<Agathorn>
isn't an acceleration just force over time?