<Agathorn>
NathanKell: well my cheat comments say m^3*kg^-1*s^-2 :p
<Agathorn>
but thats just me parroting Wikipedia to be honest
<Agathorn>
taniwha: looking
<taniwha>
yeah, doing only fundamental units makes things a little confusing (because you need to know what a Newton is)
<taniwha>
(N = kg*m*s^-2)
<Agathorn>
ironic given I chose to use as much base units as I could to help me avoid mixing units incorrectly lol
<NathanKell>
Agathorn: ok, so that means m^3/kg/s^2. So then it's multiplied by kg, and divided by m^2
<NathanKell>
so you get m/s^2
<NathanKell>
which is acceleration
<NathanKell>
so you can see you need to multiply in a mass (kg) to get force (kg*m/s^2)
<NathanKell>
(G was m^3/(kg*s^2). body mass was kg, so now m^3/s^2. Radius is m, and it's divided twice, so m/s^2)
<Agathorn>
I think what is happenig is I am getting confused over the distinction betwee, acceleration, velocity, and force
<taniwha>
Agathorn: possibly
<Agathorn>
btw multiplying the vessel mass in the grav cal indeed fixed my problem and now with gravity alone my rocket falls at the same rate as a unity rigidbody
<Agathorn>
of course now I have to wonder if I am also applying the rocket thrust incorrectly, or even the calcuklated drag
<Agathorn>
so I need to go back through everything and clearly identify what it is
<NathanKell>
yeah, I think you probably do...
<NathanKell>
tedious, but saves headache later
<Agathorn>
I don't mind the tedium
<Agathorn>
I just g et frustrated when I don't really understand it, and so i'm inclined to just plug in math formulas
<Agathorn>
and then it bites me
<Agathorn>
I don't like feeling dumb, but this does it to me constantly :(
<NathanKell>
:(
<taniwha>
take the time to understand the meaning of the formulas
<Agathorn>
so a rocket engine is rated in say newtons and that is a FORCE
<taniwha>
right
<ferram4>
Yes.
<Agathorn>
but gravity is an acceleration
<Agathorn>
why are they not both forces
<Bornholio>
gravity is acceleration regardless of target mass, rocket thrust acceleration varies with mass
<ferram4>
Because the force of gravity is proportional to the mass of the attracting bodies. This results in the mass term cancelling out and constant acceleration between the two as a result.
<Agathorn>
ahh so the M1*M2/R^2 IS a force
<ferram4>
Yes.
<Agathorn>
but the result of that formula is an acceleration
<ferram4>
No.
<Agathorn>
lol
<ferram4>
The result of THAT forumla is a force.
<taniwha>
F=GMm/r^2, F=ma -> ma = GMm/r^2 -> a = GM/r^2
<ferram4>
Dividing it by M1, or M2 gets you an acceleration on bodies 1 or 2
<UmbralRaptor>
Gravity (in terms of 9.81) can be thought of as m/s^2, or N/kg
<UmbralRaptor>
er, wait. You're saying the same thing in a different way. carry on.
<NathanKell>
Pap: Ok, ECMs fixed
<Pap>
Electronic Counter Measures?
<Bornholio>
I know those
<Agathorn>
ok right and this is why after summing all my forces I divide by the vessel mass
<Agathorn>
f = ma, or a=f/m
<taniwha>
correct
<Pap>
Good news / bad news on the Rendezvous contract
<ferram4>
Agathorn, which gives you an acceleration.
<Pap>
It will be fixed in the next update of CC, but that is only going to be for 1.3
<Agathorn>
and because I was missing the vessel mass in my gravity calculation original, I was actually getting an acceleration which I was treating as a force, which then got further divied by mass lter
<Agathorn>
causing all heck
<ferram4>
Agathorn, multiplying that by delta_time is then the process of integrating that as a constant acceleration over that period of time, giving you a change in velocity.
<Agathorn>
watching the rocket lift off now looks a lot more natural
<Agathorn>
before it was shooting off like a bat out of hell
<Pap>
NathanKell: when are you planning on starting your new TT career?
<NathanKell>
Probably today or tomorrow. I need to write the plugin and do the building levels
<Pap>
OK, I want to make sure I have a completely working version for you
<NathanKell>
<3
<NathanKell>
Might be tomorrow, since we'd going to see Wonder Woman this evening
<Pap>
HEY! I "know" a guy who worked on that!
<Agathorn>
TT?
<Qboid>
Agathorn: [TT] => Temps Terrestre
<Agathorn>
Don';t think thaty's it Qboid
<Pap>
Tech Tree
<Agathorn>
ahh
<Pap>
How do you make a 3-Baby Sergeant cluster like Explorer had? What do you use as the part in the middle to cluster them to?
<stratochief|away>
Pap: decoupler?
stratochief|away is now known as stratochief
<stratochief>
iirc, there is also a procedural structural part you could use, but I think I just surface attach them to a procedural decoupler
<Ram>
is it just me or kct does not present me with a simulation option anymore?
<stratochief>
Ram: KRASH for simulation. Pap, rsparkyc NathanKell: did we somehow add a new RP-0 default for the KRASH costs somehow?
<Pap>
I shared one, but I haven't done ANY testing on it to see if the values work
<Ram>
ok so kct does not do it anymore?
<Ram>
thanks
<Bornholio>
ram KCT seperated out a few functions, Krash for sims, and a re-useable parts section
<Agathorn>
yep KCT dropped sims
<Agathorn>
sadly
<NathanKell>
Yeah we need to get KRASH configured. I have that link still open Pap, but haven't tried either
<Agathorn>
ok so my pseudo-vanguard 1st stage accelerates straight up to a velocity of about 4.8km/s at burnout
<Agathorn>
but it coasts for damned near forever (longer than my patients) so I don't know how high it goes
<stratochief>
patience?
<stratochief>
unless you are Dr Agathorn
<Agathorn>
beyond 500km for sure
<Agathorn>
lol
<Bornholio>
gravity still borked missing G(0)
<Agathorn>
no i'm fairly certain gravity is correct
<Agathorn>
it behaves almost exactly to unity's built in
<Agathorn>
within a few decimal places anyway but Unity is probably using a ocnstant
<Agathorn>
whereas i'm calculating it based on altitude
<Agathorn>
at this point I think I need to move forward and get the ascent to follow an arc and not be straight up
<Agathorn>
because no one fires a rocket straight up and thus I still have nothing to compare with for sanity
<Agathorn>
+checks
<Agathorn>
unless someone wants to load up a 1.14m by 8m-ish tank in KSP with an X-405 attached and fire it straight up :)
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<NathanKell>
Agathorn: So calculate apogee
<Agathorn>
um
<Agathorn>
doesn't that involve like really hard numerical integration and stuffis
<taniwha>
no
<taniwha>
very analytic
<taniwha>
use the vis-viva equation
<taniwha>
(assuming straight up)
<Agathorn>
whenevr I see math with weird symbols like that one I usually back away real slow
<taniwha>
otherwise you need to solve a quadratic (that gives Ap and Pe)
<Agathorn>
what does the big ol sigma symbol mean
<Bornholio>
sumation
<Bornholio>
add it all up
<Agathorn>
yeah not understanding guys sorry.. to calculate the apogee wouldn't I need integrate over time given the mass is changing?
<Agathorn>
vis viva is asking me to if I understand it, sum up a bunch of mas*velocity but I don't udnerstand what that gives me
<Agathorn>
oh I was looking at the wrong thing
<Agathorn>
apparently there are two equations with the same name?!
<Agathorn>
somehow I think 17Mm isn't right but whatever.. I'm not too worried about it right now
<Agathorn>
going to forage for some dinner than start figuring out how i'm going to simulate an ascent trajectory without actually calculating one for every rocket
<taniwha>
17000km from 4km/s sounds plausible
<taniwha>
Agathorn: v^2 = GM(2/r - 1/a)
<taniwha>
er, or do I have that backwards?
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<taniwha>
no, got it right
<taniwha>
Agathorn: a = r/(2GM - rv^2)
<taniwha>
(a = semi-major axis)
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<Agathorn|Food>
sigh
<Agathorn|Food>
as joe pescii said
<Agathorn|Food>
they fuck you at the takeout :(
<Agathorn|Food>
get all the way home with my food -- and its wrong
<Agathorn|Food>
so now do I just throw it out and fume, or go through the effort of walking all the way back and complaining
<Agathorn|Food>
damnit!
<born|Away>
you should rant on a IRC chat room we can console you
<Agathorn|Food>
hint taken :)
<born|Away>
lol
<Agathorn|Food>
and i'm goign back
<born|Away>
you got the colnsolation prize
<born|Away>
Good luck young padawan
<born|Away>
MTFBWY
<stratochief>
Agathorn|Food: just eat it. still food, idn't it?
<stratochief>
for future ordering, I do keep track of how many times various places have fucked up on me, but once you have the food home, sunk costs of time and money are sunk costs.
<born|Away>
well unless food alergy or religious conviction or using for summoning Tsathogwa
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<Starwaster>
taniwha what's that about an ascent trajectory? What is that formula exactly?
NathanKell|AFK is now known as NathanKell
<taniwha>
Starwaster: it's fairly simple, but I can never remember it off-hand
<taniwha>
Starwaster: Et = v^2/2 - GM/r
<taniwha>
a = -GM/(2*Et)
<taniwha>
e = sqrt(1 + 2*Et*h^2/(GM)^2)
<taniwha>
h = v*r*sin(alpha) (alpha = angle between velocity and radius vectors)
<taniwha>
from there rmax (Ap) = a(1+e), rmin (Pe) = a(1-e) (NOTE: Ap and Pe are radial here, not altitudes)
<taniwha>
of course, that neglects "external" acceleration (ie, thrust or drag)
<taniwha>
Et is the total energy and is < 0 for elliptical orbits, 0 for parabolic and > 0 for hyperbolic
<taniwha>
thus escape velocity is when Et == 0
<taniwha>
also, that energy is per kg
<NathanKell>
Pap: You around? What RO branch are we using?
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vHhDu
<github>
RealismOverhaul/master c14a798 NathanKell: Fix name of VSR Mk1 cargo bay
<Ram>
last time I disabled testflight cause it was more of a pain and I didnt understand it,. this time I am trying it. looking for an advice here : my aerobee engine ( I don't know why it is labled WAC-Corporal in the testflight status window) always quits about 1/4 full of propellant on an aerobee replica rocket even test flight data is maxed out at 10000.00du
<Probus>
NathanKell, I start using that Langley Lander engine all the time in RO once it is unlocked. Something can't be right. Something has to be out of balance.
<NathanKell>
Ram: Because it's a WAC Corporal engine, so you need to replicate hte WAC Corporal
<NathanKell>
Probus: Why would that mean that tho?
<NathanKell>
Probus: You use it all the time because, unlike real life, not everything is planned in advance, so having many ignitions is valuable.
<NathanKell>
(And it's not like, say, Delta K, didn't have effectively unlimited ignitions, or SPS, or whatever)
<Probus>
Yes. and throttle-able means I can make more precise burns.
<NathanKell>
Similarly, we don't have as finely honed avionics as real life, so players find throttling more useful
<NathanKell>
Yeah, but that's not because throttleability is valuable in real life
<NathanKell>
That's because (a) we don't have RL-quality avionics, and (b) we don't model variable burn termination, so you needn't necessarily fine tune on RCS (where in real life you always do)
<Probus>
Is it available to you in your RIS game?
<NathanKell>
Ram: The Aerobee succeeded the WAC and was rather larger (1.5ft diameter rather than 1ft)
<NathanKell>
Probus: No, I don't have FASA installed.
<NathanKell>
If it has the Isp of the LMAE, and slightly worse TWR, and costs about as much, then it should be about right
<Ram>
NathanKell: hoo I was misslead by the fact that the WAC corporal engine is labled aerobee in the VAB so I just strapped it on the Aerobee FT-LF3 tank
<NathanKell>
Yeah, we need to clarify that I guess :)
<Agathorn|Food>
The "aerobee engine" is probably one of the most confusing when it comes to engine configs
<Ram>
I guess it is obvious for someone who knows it already but as I am googling everything on the go
<Bornholio>
want me to do a test and PR?
<Ram>
:)
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<Agathorn>
stratochief: RE food is food... if what I had gotten was at least close I might have eaten it but it wasn't even close to what I ordered
<Agathorn>
Ram tl;dr The name that you see "Aerobee" is the name of the part/engine as a whole, but RealFuels gives a single part multiple "configs" with each fongi reprezenting the stats of a real world engine - the grou of configs are generally all derivations of the same engine with slight differences
<Agathorn>
If you right click on an engine and select Engine GUI you can see these configs, and swap between unlocked ones
<Agathorn>
in this case the WAC Corporal config is basically the really earliest version of the aerobee engine. Later configs are more advanced ones, leading uip to the infamous AJ10 which is the longest lived liquid engine in history iirc
<Agathorn>
Ram Make sense?
<Agathorn>
or some semblance thereof?
<Probus>
The ascent engine isn't throttleable, is it? Should that increase the price dramatically? Maybe it should be more like a Viking lander's engine (in theory).
<Starwaster>
taniwha: so that's the total energy required for a given orbit?
<Agathorn>
Now as for why Testflight keptkilling the engine with 1/4 proellant left, it is important to understand that an engine has a rated burn time. These are very hot things, and eventually the "throat" tends to burn through destroying the engine
<Agathorn>
Therefor it is important that you be aware of engine burn times when building.. if you place an engine on your rocket, then middle click it you will see its rated burn time
<NathanKell>
Probus: No it should not increase the price dramatically. To make a hypergolic pressure-fed engine throttleable, you just open the valves halfway instead of all the way
<NathanKell>
It's really not hard
<NathanKell>
Throttleability is hard for pump-fed engines and for non-vacuum engines, not for those things
<NathanKell>
gotta go tho, o/
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AFK
<Probus>
Thanks NathanKell|AFK o/
<Agathorn>
Raw one of the later configs will no doubt work yes.. check the burn time
<Starwaster>
on the subject of limited ignitions, I've noticed that MJ has a tendency to rapid fire throttle up and down consuming ignitions machine gun style... could we maybe say that RF should not count an engine as consuming an ignition if re-fired within x seconds? Where x is either a hard coded variable or user / modder configurable value?
<Ram>
ho ok so with Current reliability = 23 minutes for my newly upgraded AJ10 and rated burn time 1min10seconds I cannot expect it to burn more than 1min10 right? and in this case getting more flight data won't change anything?
<Starwaster>
and crap I just missed Nathan
<Agathorn>
when you exceed the burn time your failure rate starts increasing dramatically
<Agathorn>
its a difference between say using an item within tolerances and outside tolerances
<Agathorn>
the MTFB is assumiung you are using it properly
<Starwaster>
!tell NathanKell on the subject of limited ignitions, I've noticed that MJ has a tendency to rapid fire throttle up and down consuming ignitions machine gun style... could we maybe say that RF should not count an engine as consuming an ignition if re-fired within x seconds? Where x is either a hard coded variable or user / modder configurable value?
<Qboid>
Starwaster: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Agathorn>
so no, increase your reliability has no effect on the rated burn time except that maybe you will get another couple seconds than you otherwise woudl have
<Ram>
ok and MTFB is usually that high ?
<Agathorn>
don't look at MTBF as a "this is when it will fail" type of thing..
<Agathorn>
MTBF can often be misleading because statistrics
<Bornholio>
its the peack of a normal curve of when it will fail
<taniwha>
Starwaster: yes, but it's kinetic + potential
<Starwaster>
looking at the Planetary Base parts and hidden in one of the IVAs is a sticky note that says, "Why is the filtered water green?"
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<Pap>
!tell NathanKell|AFK: For the RO Updates necessary for the Tech Tree, use pap1723-ROupdates branch
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell|AFK: For the RP-0 Tech Tree and Contract Updates, use Pap-TechTree branch
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
have a good night all
Pap is now known as Pap|Sleep
<taniwha>
I have a box full of Saturn V in front of me :)
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<xShadowx>
taniwha: how much all them lego cost?;p
<xShadowx>
id rather have 3d printer, and print out stuff :)
<taniwha>
about $150
<xShadowx>
lego must be gettin rich off that, buncha peeps buying em
<xShadowx>
how much is unique pieces that arent the usual lego brick style?
<taniwha>
not much
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<taniwha>
it looks like the 3 men, some pre-printed parts (standard but with specific logos) are about it for parts you wounldn't expect to find in another kit
<taniwha>
maybe the 1st-stage engine bells
<taniwha>
but even the tank walls look like they'd fit in elsewhere
<taniwha>
though I guess the lander shroud might be specific
<taniwha>
oh, face-plate for the LV
<taniwha>
but overall, a very useful set for building other things
<xShadowx>
playing with neodymium magnets, got a platform levitating 5 inches up :D
<xShadowx>
taniwha: we expect pictures when done!
<taniwha>
will do, but not sure when I'll get to do it
<xShadowx>
extra points if you livestream the launch ;3
<taniwha>
wanted to start today, but things will get crowded tonight, so thought best to hold off
<xShadowx>
ya, fun stuff is better when you can get a day all to yourself heh
<xShadowx>
i wonder how long until lego makes a VR game
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<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Starwaster left a message for you in #RO [18.06.2017 02:41:02]: "on the subject of limited ignitions, I've noticed that MJ has a tendency to rapid fire throttle up and down consuming ignitions machine gun style... could we maybe say that RF should not count an engine as consuming an ignition if re-fired within x seconds? Where x is either a hard coded variable or user / modder configurable val
<Qboid>
ue?"
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AFK
<NathanKell|AFK>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell|AFK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [10.06.2017 20:47:30]: "yes, I agree with the CrewCount 1 reward not making sense. I will combine that into the two contracts and then create some pre-requisites on the other ones"
<Qboid>
NathanKell|AFK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [18.06.2017 03:32:09]: "Please delete the pap1723-engineconfigs Branch from KSP-RO"
NathanKell|AFK is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
!tell Pap* you got it! Also, use !tell NathanKell* to get me on any nick. :)
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell>
!tell Starwaster: Problem is it *is* a way to make an engine throttleable.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Theysen>
!tell regex tested and answered on the forums, all worked :/ no idea where the issue is
<Qboid>
Theysen: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell deleted pap1723-engineconfigs at b989bdf: https://git.io/vHhdD
<Theysen>
NathanKell, you intend to stream tonight? If so, I'll try to push the plume fix
<NathanKell>
Your-tonight you mean? Yeah
<NathanKell>
Theysen: In about 14hrs probably
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<Theysen>
I meant your late night :P like in 10 minutes :) gotcha thanks!
<NathanKell>
Ah, no, it's nearly 1am
<NathanKell>
Coding time, sure, but not gonna start streaming :]
<xShadowx>
1am best time to code
<xShadowx>
NathanKell: yer better at c# than me ;p know how to get a data type with more precision than decimal?
<xShadowx>
128 just isnt enough, i need like......1Gb ;3
<NathanKell>
write it :P
* xShadowx
doesnt know how :(
<NathanKell>
Writing arbitrary ints is easy, arbitrary floating point numbers not so much iirc
<NathanKell>
taniwha would know
<xShadowx>
im doing something entirely pointless too :D printing out the ratio between fibonacci numbers to see how far i can calculate the decimal lolz
<taniwha>
heh
<taniwha>
I'm not /that/ good (though I'm tempted to do something like that)
<xShadowx>
The golden ratio 1.618033988749894848204586834... in mathematics, art, and architecture.
<xShadowx>
same decimals limit as me
<taniwha>
xShadowx: do you know how to calculate square roots? :)
<xShadowx>
ya o.o
<taniwha>
without using sqrt or **0.5 :)
<xShadowx>
sqrt(9) ;3
<xShadowx>
damn you
<taniwha>
there's a method that looks like long division
<xShadowx>
whats **? sqr?
<taniwha>
power (in python)
<xShadowx>
ah i always see ^ never seen ** heh
<taniwha>
2**16 = 65536
<taniwha>
anyway, the algorithm is based on (a+b)**2 = a**2 + 2*a*b + b**2
<xShadowx>
fib(n) = (phi**n - (-phi)**n)/sqrt(5) is what google returned
<xShadowx>
same as yours but -phi not -1
<taniwha>
check pm
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<NathanKell>
UGH. I forgot how sucky it was to debug without actually being able to, y'know, debug.
<taniwha>
it's more just tedious and requires planning
<taniwha>
and lots of strategic log spamming
<taniwha>
xShadowx: anyway, go to complex numbers and you can calculate fibs for fractional n
<taniwha>
makes a pretty 3d spiral
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vHhbl
<github>
RealismOverhaul/pap1723-ROupdates 1c2c97c NathanKell: Merge remote-tracking branch 'origin/master' into pap1723-ROupdates
<NathanKell>
!tell Pap* finished the preset changer. Added a preset cfg with my attempt at starting values (WIP!). Needs some balancing as to what we think reasonable values are. Also, uh, as RIS shows I may not be best at that :P
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Thomas>
o/ NathanKell
<NathanKell>
Hey Thomas! :)
<oeuf>
!wpn NathanKell
* Qboid
gives NathanKell a Riemann halberd
<oeuf>
!wpn Thomas
* Qboid
gives Thomas a progressive catstrophe
oeuf is now known as egg|headache|egg
<NathanKell>
!tell Pap* updated CBK for the pad levels, and tweaked the research rates per point in KCT. Now 7 pad levels (20/60/150/320/500/1000/inf) and research now scales from 0.1 sci/year a point to 1.5 a point by point 15, and is thenceforth the constant 1.5 a point.
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Duncan>
are there any good guides for optimising mechjeb ascent? I found some number but they are not for RSS
<Theysen>
high apo, 40 - 45 % turn, manual turn start dpending on your initial TWR, fine tune via final flight path angle during ascent, turn off autopilot before circularizing and do that on your own, make sure to have RSS/RO special mode enabled Duncan
<Duncan>
thanks
<Duncan>
what is roughly the relationship between TWR and turn start?
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<NathanKell|AWAY>
Duncan 100ms for 1.2 twr, higher the twr (SLT) lower the start velocity
<travis-ci>
Merge pull request #1685 from KSP-RO/master
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<Duncan>
Hey I have this issue where mechjeb wont adjust inclination on ascent
<Duncan>
it always flies at 0 degrees no matter what I set. In addition the orbit info always says 26.608 and never changes
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<Bornholio>
duncan, you may want to delete your crafte cache for MJ, or better yet make sure you are installing Dev#695 from jenkins, you can save you custom window cache but make sure you delete everything else if you change version
<Bornholio>
There are some new versions lamont is working on also with RO optimizations
<Duncan>
is the cache in \Kerbal Space Program\GameData\MechJeb2 ?
<Duncan>
I have the ckan version installed
<Bornholio>
yes, MJ saves optimizations for each craft, i usually just scrub it and install if its having weirdness
<Bornholio>
also your customizatios are there
<Duncan>
I can redo all my settings its nothing too complicated
<Duncan>
which means it is probably me that is malfunctioning not mechjeb
<Duncan>
is it possible that the orbit inclination is set relative to something other than the earth?
<Bornholio>
ha, on ascent guiudance unless you are using rend. or Launch into plane, iit should just take whatever you put in inclination field
<Duncan>
well it isnt
<Duncan>
everything from 0-28 degree results in 0 degrees
<Duncan>
above that it quickly changes to the values I expect
<Duncan>
at 45 degrees it seems about right
<Bornholio>
launching from cape canaveral?, you cannot drop your inclination without a dogleg later in ascent. but you are arriving at 0deg?
<Duncan>
yes
<Duncan>
the orbit info window says 28.640 but it is perfectly aligned with the equator
<Bornholio>
hmm, did you mess with kopernicus? or RSS
<Duncan>
maybe
<Duncan>
I dont know what those are
<Bornholio>
kopernicus is the mod for changing scaled space correctly, RSS has all the settings to make those changes for the solar system.
<Duncan>
when I look at the satellites in orbit their listed orbit inclinations dont seem to make sense either
<Bornholio>
installing from CKAN?
<Duncan>
yes
<Duncan>
except for RP-0
<Bornholio>
if you have the progam ope, use the cheat function set orbit to inclination 28.363 for anything, then see if that inclination matches the moon.
<Duncan>
dont think I have that
<Bornholio>
use Alt-F12
<Duncan>
does nothing
<Bornholio>
ok i'm assuming windows :P but alt-F12 doesn't bring up the console? or setting a new orbit function does nothing?
<Duncan>
alt f12 does not bring up the console
<Duncan>
wait that time it worked
<Duncan>
well it opened KAS debug config
<Duncan>
and also change the camera angle
Pap|Sleep is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [18.06.2017 07:28:49]: "you got it! Also, use !tell NathanKell* to get me on any nick. :)"
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [18.06.2017 08:32:52]: "finished the preset changer. Added a preset cfg with my attempt at starting values (WIP!). Needs some balancing as to what we think reasonable values are. Also, uh, as RIS shows I may not be best at that :P"
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [18.06.2017 09:12:18]: "updated CBK for the pad levels, and tweaked the research rates per point in KCT. Now 7 pad levels (20/60/150/320/500/1000/inf) and research now scales from 0.1 sci/year a point to 1.5 a point by point 15, and is thenceforth the constant 1.5 a point."
<Duncan>
ctrl-alt-shift f12 seems to be it
<Pap>
!tell NathanKell* that is great to hear!
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Bornholio>
KAS debug should not be using that by default. did you change them, either way you'll need to figure out what to change in keybindings to use it.
<Duncan>
no I never changed any bindings
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<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 closed pull request #1654: Add part upgrade for engine configs proof of concept (master...PartUpgradeEngineConfigs) https://git.io/vHckD
<Duncan>
debug menu setting the orbits has the expected results, nothing strange going on there
<Duncan>
guess I just have to ascend manuallt
<Bornholio>
well can you screenshot what you think is showing something wrong and post a link to see it? cause i'm at a loss.
Hypergolic_AFK is now known as Hypergolic_Skunk
<Agathorn>
morning
<Bornholio>
duncan i've got to run in a bit, you may want to take the troubleshooting onto MJ thread, just make sure you mention as much detail about setup as possible when you start.
<Bornholio>
hi agathorn
<Duncan>
ok
<Duncan>
thanks for the help so far
<Agathorn>
FYI MechJeb from CKAN is always a bad idea. It is often very much out of date
<Bornholio>
currently it will early execute manuever nodes :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
hey folks, hey Pap o/ I have a question about the biome map .. all of Florida seems to be Shore. I am flying into the US now, almost over Atlanta, Georgia, and it's still 'shore' :P
<Bornholio>
should be grasslands
<Agathorn>
also unless it has been changed in the year or so since I last played, MJ woin't adjust to an inclination lwer than your launch site
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
that's what I was hoping for
<Agathorn>
so if you are trying to set lower than the cape and not seeing it chasnge that is probably why
<Bornholio>
he is describing the opposite
<Agathorn>
Oh? "everything from 0-28 degree results in 0 degrees" "above that it quickly changes to the values I expect"
<Agathorn>
sounds like it to me :)
<Agathorn>
I think there is just confusion over whhat is happening
<Agathorn>
most likely it is as a describe, MJ just isn't do anything (maybe it dsays 0) but is MJ actually adjusting your course?
<Bornholio>
could be, thats why i was asking for a pic
<Agathorn>
yeah MJ is a complicated beast and screenshots/videos can be really helpful
<Bornholio>
but i want to go see and Altas today and take some pictures of my son next to it!
<Duncan>
so where should I launch from to moon?
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: we have also talked about updating the Biome Map completely based on some new science balancing, hopefully that will happen, but I don't know how far down the road that is
<Agathorn>
Duncan: the cape is fine, just MJ won't do the dogleg for you
<Bornholio>
28.363 all other values 0
<Pap>
!tell rspark* Have you started a 1.3 Golden Spreadsheet?
<Qboid>
Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Agathorn>
you have to do it yourself
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: ok :)
<Duncan>
I think there is something here I am failing to understand
<Agathorn>
anyway I need to get started on writing a camera system yay
Bornholio is now known as Born|toviewAtlas
<Agathorn>
Duncan what is that?
<Agathorn>
Might look up NK's RP0 tutorial..i'm sure he has a moon launch in there
<Duncan>
how the location effects what inclinations I can launch, and why a dogleg is necessary for a 25 degree launch and not for a 45 degree one
<Agathorn>
well i'm no expert on it iether.. all I know is that if you launch from the cape even when reletive inclination is near 0 to the moon, by the time you get to orbiut the rel inclination will have increased.. so by doing a dogleg early you can get it much closer to 0
<Agathorn>
as to the WHY i'm sorry I don't know :(
<Pap>
Duncan: if you are launching from a latitude of 28.6 degrees north (the Cape) and you launch directly east, your inclination cannot ever be below 28.6 degrees...more coming
<Pap>
Duncan: if you are launching from 40 degrees latitude, and you launch directly east, your inclination cannot ever be below 40 degrees...more coming
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
is it feasible to launch from Florida with an Apoapsis exactly above the AN/DN, so as to circularize and lower inclination to zero in one burn?
<Pap>
Duncan: Cape Canaveral was chosen by NASA as the launch site because of it's inclination. The Moon is inclined 28.3 degrees from the Earth. That means that every day, Cape Canaveral will almost directly line up with the Moon's orbit...more coming
Agathorn is now known as Agathorn|Work
<Pap>
Duncan: launching to a higher inclination is easier because instead of launching directly east, you just launch east by north east and you can get into a higher inclination
<Pap>
Duncan: is this making sense? Is there a specific question you have now? (I didn't read all of backchat)
<Duncan>
yes, thanks very much for explaining that to me
<Duncan>
let me run some sims to cement that and I will ask if I still have questions later
<Pap>
As to why you can get to a higher incliantion, but not a lower inclination by launching to a specific azimuth, I do not understand the math behind explaining why :( (more I never learned it)
<Duncan>
I wouldnt understand it if you did
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: yes, that is the preferred method for Geostationary launches, you might have heard of a Geostationary Transfer Orbit? The idea is to set the Ap at 35,786 km over the equator.So when you get to the AP, you are still in a 28 degree inclination, but because you are traveling slower at Ap, circularizing and changing the inclination to 0 at the same time saves the most delta-v
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: I didn't mean a GTO, I meant a dog-leg like maneuver :p as in, have your first stage lob you south-east with an initial apoapsis above the equator
<Pap>
Ah, yes Hypergolic_Skunk that would be the exact same idea
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
only executed earlier :p
<Born|toviewAtlas>
GTO manuever is effectively a dogleg with a long coast before it
<Pap>
yep
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yeah, and it's my go-to move when doing geostationary comsats. but I've never tried to reduce inclination during launch phase
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: you are not going to like me with the new requirements for communications satellites
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
what evil little details have you come up with now? :D
<Duncan>
so is there a launch site on the equator I can use when I want an inclination of 0
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Kourou
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
top of South America
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
it's got about 5 degrees
<Duncan>
ok
<Pap>
It is just slightly above so your inclination changes are much smaller
<Duncan>
I am trying to get moon anyway so cape is fine, but I had misunderstood the timing
<soundnfury>
Pap: so in my playthrough of an earlier version of your techtree, RCS fuels didn't unlock when they should. Has that been fixed?
<Pap>
yes soundnfury, some moron wrote a bad MM config
<Pap>
It is fixed now
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<soundnfury>
'k
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<soundnfury>
time to junk that playthrough and start afresh then
<soundnfury>
(it was getting bogged down anyway ;)
<Pap>
soundnfury: make sure you get the Realism Overhaul branch of Pap1723-ROUpdates and the RP-0 branch of Pap-TechTree
<Pap>
You will have errors if you do not have both
<Pap>
My new evil contracts require the new resources in RO and the engines are more filled out, and they also show up on the Tech Tree when you unlock new nodes
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<soundnfury>
Pap: oh, I need an RO branch too? 'k, thanks for the warning
<Pap>
Yeah, it is current with the Master
<Pap>
Where are the avionics for SSTU determined?
<Duncan>
is there a way to judge where on the moons orbit to intercept without intense math? I cant really afford to wait for a lot of orbits if I miss
<Duncan>
I feel like the percentage in front of the moon to aim should be relatively constant
<soundnfury>
Duncan: you could use konrad, it'll do the intense math for you ;)
<soundnfury>
(however, it's not stunningly user-friendly)
<Duncan>
I found a calculator online for orbital periods and it seems that about 30% is right
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<Duncan>
oh damn
<Duncan>
that would be 15% because I only need half an orbit of the probe
<Duncan>
oh well another mission lost
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<lamont>
duncan: you can’t launch to 0 degrees inclination from 28.608 at the cape
<Pap>
soundnfury: I know you talk a lot about Konrad, are there any instructions on it?
<Duncan>
yeah pap explained it to me
<Duncan>
thanks
<lamont>
the older mechjeb builds though would go wonky later in flight and try to fly north and completely screw up plane targetting and waste DV if you enter anything lower than the cape’s lat. if you watch NK’s moon vids he manually copies 28.608 into that field every time. the dev build of MJ just caps the inclination so it can never be less than 28.608 and blocks launching to anything lower than that from the cape.
<Pap>
lamont: I know why you cannot, but is there a good visual representation, or site that explains exactly why it works the way it does?
<lamont>
well, picture a ground track of the moon on the earth
<lamont>
it will never cross the cape’s lat so you can’t rotate the earth around to cross its ground track
<lamont>
most any astrodynamic book has the formal mathematical proof
Agathorn|Work is now known as Ag|ShurikenTraining
<lamont>
(i’m still working on my first two shots of coffee today...)
<Born|toviewAtlas>
cool, lamont what settings do i need to change to use 710 properly before i go see atlas
<lamont>
710 should just work, its been pretty stable for me
<stratochief>
Ag|ShurikenTraining: vat?
<Born|toviewAtlas>
Should i check, RO/RSS special Handling?
<lamont>
that’s up to you
<lamont>
i fly like NK does and i like ascent guidance being disabled to kill the engines, otherwise you have to kill the engine and hit ‘x’ at the same time
<lamont>
but if you want to switch from ascent guidance to manual pitch/yaw/roll or something like that, then you’d want to have that ticked so you could quit ascent guidance without killing engines
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
wish you could swap from ascent guidance to SmartASS without cutting it though
<Born|toviewAtlas>
you said something about ullage settings too, i see both prevent and use rcs are checked, only reason to change is?
<Born|toviewAtlas>
ah
<stratochief>
Ag|ShurikenTraining: how many shurikens are you training? I thought they were just cut pieces of deadly metal :P
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
training to use them :p
<lamont>
i think you may want to untick ‘prevent’ for early sounding rockets using the aerobee
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
well Unity's
<stratochief>
Ag|ShurikenTraining: ahh, so no deadly weapons handling then
<Born|toviewAtlas>
k thanks have a good day, happy Fathers day to all the fellow fathers on channel!
<lamont>
the issue is that if ullage falls to ‘risky’ with a sounding rocket, you still want to ignite the engine, because you’ll never be able to ullage it any higher, so might as well just fire it off…
* stratochief
should probably call his dad, but is busy, and I visited him like only 2 months ago
<lamont>
‘prevent unstable’ will change the 5% chance of failure (or whatever) at ‘risky’ ignition to 100% chance of failure — “helpfully”
<lamont>
my dad made it easy on me and drove down here yesterday to drop off my step mom at the train station, so we hung out all day yesterday and had dinner and few beers and complained about politics all night… so i should be in pretty good shape to hack on mechjeb all day...
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
lamont: did you see my feature request above? hint hint :p
<lamont>
where?
<lamont>
<— just got up, low on coffee
<stratochief>
lamont: what are you hacking around with in mechjeb? do you have a tracking Issue somewhere I can follow?
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
"wish you could swap from ascent guidance to SmartASS without cutting it though"
<lamont>
i thought that is what “RO/RSS special handling” did? prevented the throttle from zero’ing when you disabled ascent guidance
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
IOW I kind of like letting MJ cut the throttle, but I like to swap from MJ Ascent Fuidance to MJ SmartASS to fine tune the ends of my insertion, and I can't do that
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
yeah my point was I wish you could swap from one MJ module to another without killing it
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
but that probably makes no sense
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
so carry on
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
I guess its more than yolu can't use ascent and smartass at the same time
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
ah well no worries
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
ignore me - in hindsight its a bad idea
<lamont>
stratochief: i’m doing a lot of refactoring of the ascent guidance to make the ascent path pluggable, so i can have a drop down menu to change the strategy — and in particular to get something like apollo IGM / powered guidance in there
<stratochief>
Ag|ShurikenTraining: I've seen some smarties use ascent to create a Target, and have SmartASS aim at that target. so, you get the help of Asccent but all the customizability of SmartASS
<stratochief>
lamont: very cool!
<lamont>
Ag: but i thought that’s exactly what RO/RSS handling did?
<Starwaster>
what is the actual benefit of that though stratochief?
<stratochief>
Starwaster: You can tell it to follow the target, but up a few degress, or down a few degrees, or just ignore it entirely and aim to your own pitch instead if you choose?
<lamont>
you can control pitch from the ascent path window though
<stratochief>
basically, I prefer to fiddle SmartASS's numbers, rather than fidget with the "percent curve" of Ascent Guidance
<Starwaster>
^^^
<Starwaster>
that ^^^ was fpr :Lamont's
<stratochief>
Starwaster: I knew who the ^^^ was for, I think 4th dimensionally :)
<lamont>
yeah instead of playing with the percent curve, twiddle like uh, terminal pitch or whatever its called…
<Starwaster>
with the curve though you can play with adjusting your downrange value
<Starwaster>
for instance if you're trying to replicate a Saturn launch, a shape percent of about 30-35 is needed to get a downrange of 93km by the time you shut down your first stage engines
<stratochief>
ehh, my preference is simply toward SmartASS over Ascent Guidance, is all. but I've seen people use both together effectively, which is most similar to what Ag|ShurikenTraining was talking about
<Starwaster>
really helps in getting that initial ballistic lob right
<Starwaster>
what we really need though is a decent IGM system like Saturn had. I don't think corrective steering quite does that. As far as I can tell it really just tries to match your actual flight path to the planned one but isn't really mindful as to your final orbital velocity
<Starwaster>
lamont: kind of crude but my working copy ignores Ap if corrective steering is on and instead keeps burning until Pe is desired orbital altitude
<Starwaster>
works horribly in stock KSP but better in RO/RSS environments
<Starwaster>
especially where you have limited ignitions or where it's just plain bad to try to do a 3000m/s circulrization at Ap
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
lamont: yeah like stratochief I far prefer tweakign the pictch directly rather that trying to twiddle with the ascent curve settings..especially since the numbers take effect the instant you type them which often causes wobbling
<lamont>
man i don’t understand the corrective steering stuff
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
I didn't know cxorrective steering optino even did anything :p
<Starwaster>
what it looks like it's doing is... let's say your TWR is a bit too high so your flight path is going higher than your planned ascent path in the editor
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
never noticed a difference with it on or off
<Starwaster>
it'll adjust inwards radially until they match.
<Ag|ShurikenTraining>
shouldn't it do that anyway? Isn't that the whole point of having an ascent path?
<Starwaster>
or if TWR is too low and your path is too low then it'll increase pitch until they match
<lamont>
yeah, its very overly complicated code
<Starwaster>
shuriken: no, because the ascent editor just tells it where to point and depends on you to have a proper design.
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<lamont>
i’m going to write a gravity-turn-style ascent path for the stock plebs and will include that kind of pitch logic for low TWR uppers in it, but will just control pitch from a PID
<lamont>
i think that’s probably how corrective steering should be implemented… but right now i just keep it all as-is so the behavior should be the same...
<Starwaster>
what we need is something that actively tries to steer into a proper orbit insertion in one burn
<lamont>
yeah powered guidance
<stratochief>
lamont: IIRC, last time I asked Sarbian about corrective steering, he said it was a legacy function that was in mechjeb before his tenure
<lamont>
yeah, i think i may have posted something mildly grouchy in the last PR about corrective steering as well...
<Starwaster>
it can't be worse than reading Apollo's assembly code that needs an interpreter to execute
<Starwaster>
though it would be cool if I could write such an interpreter in C# and see if that code can get something into space for me
<lamont>
the problem is that it doesn’t solve the problem of first stage boost and you still need an open-loop curve to follow before you switch to closed-loop guidance (which is what apollo did as well)
<lamont>
and i don’t know what they used to generate the polynomial they programmed into the first stage guidance
<lamont>
(the problem is that the approximation they use for the closed-loop guidance assumes constant thrust — but atmo drag is basically negative thrust which makes it variable)
<Starwaster>
actual drag loss is negligible though.
<Starwaster>
as far as open loop guidance, that's more or less what MJ does without corrective steering
<lamont>
that’s what i don’t quite understand, because the papers all say you can’t use it for intiial guidance, but drag is low and i don’t see why it wouldn’t work...
<lamont>
part of it may be the requirement to follow AoA closely just so you don’t flip?
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<egg>
lamont: your Catalan 4 is pretty much Cauchy isn't it :-p
<lamont>
yes it is
<egg>
:D
<lamont>
its just labelled wrong
<lamont>
the zip file even says “Cauchy”
<egg>
btw does someone around here have a linux and wants to test our linux Cauchy build?
<egg>
ideally someone who plays Catalan under linux
<egg>
we changed the way we build it, and we're not sure it'll work as eggspected
<lamont>
lol
<egg>
lamont: btw we now link your builds from the principia OP and FAQ
<lamont>
hah cool
<egg>
lamont: also eventually you should make your Makefile changes conditional so we can merge principia#1419
<egg>
lamont: also if you want to support confused users this one seems to be confused http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/162201-principia%E2%80%94build-your-own/#comment-3095937
<egg>
(there should be no dll since it's a dylib, but why is it not working)
<egg>
lamont: who are you on the fora anyway, there are crowds of lamonts
<lamont>
Jim DiGriz on KSP forums
<Pap>
soundnfury: yes, it is probably a naming issue more than anything else, but there is no reason it needs to be that early
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<Pap>
I will move it later as it is only used for Gemini
<lamont>
egg: responded
<lamont>
i also updated the release title so its clearer that its really Cauchy
<egg>
lamont: thanks
<egg>
lamont: your name on the fora is slightly confusing :-p
<lamont>
i use realname on github and irc, i got more creative on the forum
<egg>
lamont: whereas I use eggrealname on the fora and GitHub and dropped the extraneous realname here :D
<egg>
s/ext/eggst
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: lamont: whereas I use eggrealname on the fora and GitHub and dropped the eggstraneous realname here :D
<lamont>
lol
<lamont>
my roomba is lost
<lamont>
ah there it goes
<Pap>
lamont: my went missing yesterday, stuck on a random sock it dragged under the dresser
<lamont>
yeah its always funny when it shuts off and i have to go find it and figure out what kind of trouble it got itself into
<lamont>
okay the latest release is now marked and tagged as being really cauchy and not catalan build #4
<lamont>
(it actually was the same gitsha, i just pulled master without realizing cauchy got tagged)
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<egg>
:D
<egg>
o/ regex
<regex>
o/
<Qboid>
regex: Theysen left a message for you in #RO [18.06.2017 07:31:28]: "tested and answered on the forums, all worked :/ no idea where the issue is"
<egg>
btw, there were some forum mishaps (something something technicalfool), so everyone who was subscribed to the principia main thread got unsubscribed
<egg>
if you were, you might want to refollow it
<egg>
!wpn regex
* Qboid
gives regex a nitrated microscope
<regex>
Thanks, no, I don't subscribe to any threads
<egg>
a sound approach to things
* egg
subscribes only to the principia thread, gets spam that way :D
<regex>
lol
<egg>
lamont: oh
<egg>
lamont: we changed the makefile, and we fucked up
<egg>
lamont: what happens is that the main build is zipped on windows, the tar.gz would just be to get the files out of the VM to package together, or for people who build their own
<lamont>
for now i just reverted back to a zipfile
<egg>
"a bit of a concatenated gzipfile hot mess" :D
<Saabstory88>
Maybe someone here would know the answer to this. How do I pass a variable to UI_FloatEdit? I'm getting the error An object reference is required for the non-static field, method, or property
<lamont>
that seemed to be the most accurate way to explain the issue...
<egg>
true
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<regex>
lol, HebaruSan is getting fucking salty.
<regex>
Theysen, thanks for testing those craft. I think the issue is either a mod I have installed or the lack of a mod being installed.
<egg>
regex: yeah no point getting into a fight with them
<egg>
and tbh the link *is* hidden
<lamont>
yeah he seems to just want to be pissy to be pissy
<regex>
I know.
<egg>
the point being that you read the bloody thread :D
<regex>
right?
<egg>
muahahaha
<lamont>
he took the time to count the number of words in the OP and the number of words in that the link appeared
<lamont>
that is some dedication to being a pissy troll, usually they’re more low-effort
<egg>
:D
<egg>
it is a long OP tbh
<lamont>
yeah
<lamont>
at the same time its a mod that changes the whole physics model of KSP to be n-body
<regex>
Yes, but the download link is very easy to find, took me like ten seconds or so of skimming.
<egg>
but then again I've grown attached to this silly long OP so I just keep prepending to it
<Theysen_>
regex, I don't actually know. Maybe just rerun your install with CKAN on a fresh 1.2.2 install and test that. This works like it should work!
<egg>
regex: yeah, it's even at the beginning, I could be trollier
<Theysen_>
nice new drama? In the principia fred?
<regex>
Theysen_, I'll try that
<egg>
Theysen_: in the principia drama thread
<regex>
No, just a forum user who should be smarter being a salty fucking troll
<egg>
we made a separate thread for that :D
<regex>
haha
<egg>
regex: I feel like I should update the bibliography of that OP
<lamont>
find a cheap 128GB SSD somewhere to put KSP on?
<egg|nomz|egg>
rsparkyc: so what's happening is that we try to build on a week-end (to make sure we have time to do things right) and the new moon is next saturday, so we made the release this week-end
<rsparkyc>
ahh, makes sense
<egg|nomz|egg>
rsparkyc: further we'll be away for one week starting next week-end, so we'd rather get this done now
<egg|nomz|egg>
rsparkyc: the release will be *actually posted on the fora* on friday though
<regex|semi-AFK>
Getting an SSD is on my list of things to do with this laptop for sure, but I need to not be continually surprised by house stuff and droipping my S8 on a rock in the road.
<egg|nomz|egg>
in the meantime I need somebody to test the linux build
<egg|nomz|egg>
we changed the build setup so I'm not eggsactly sure it works
<rsparkyc>
should this version work on eggisting saves?
<rsparkyc>
see what i did there? ^
<lamont>
i kind of miss my linux workstation but not enough to reboot out of my hackintosh
<egg|nomz|egg>
rsparkyc: eggsisting you mean :-p
<egg|nomz|egg>
rsparkyc: yes, and it should even recover your save that crashed-on-load
<rsparkyc>
haha, yeah
<rsparkyc>
awesome
<lamont>
eggistential
<egg|nomz|egg>
lamont: s/gg/ggs
<Qboid>
egg|nomz|egg thinks lamont meant to say: eggsistential
<lamont>
lol yes
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<lamont>
eggsplosive
<lamont>
eggsplorer
<lamont>
eggsactly
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<Pap|MostlyAFK>
rsparkyc: I don't entirely understand your contract idea
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<rsparkyc>
ahh, hey Pap
<rsparkyc>
so let me explain
<rsparkyc>
let's say you accept 2 contracts, one that requires you to bring 2T of "payload" to LEO, and another contract that wants 1T to GEO
<rsparkyc>
you COULD just accept them both, and then use the same vessel, going to LEO, then GEO
<rsparkyc>
but if we're using a payload resource, you should really want to leave the LEO sat alone, and be forced to build a new one for GEO
<rsparkyc>
programmatically creating a resource for every mission that requires a "payload" would mean you couldn't use one resource for a different mission
<rsparkyc>
Pap|MostlyAFK: make sense?
<Pap|MostlyAFK>
Ohhh, I see what you are saying. Could you create it inside of a config, or would it need to be done in a program?
<lamont>
(one crazy idea i’ve got about contracts is that for some of the grindier ones like sounding rocket low/med/high they should auto-complete without having accepted them at maybe like 90% of the advance + payout — so you get the contract if you just forget it, but don’t get the advance up front and get ding’d a little bit for forgetting and kind of amortize the risk of possibly failing contracts)
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<rsparkyc>
Pap, I think you'd have to programmatically need to create the resource, but I could help with that
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<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [18.06.2017 14:29:50]: "that is great to hear!"
SirKeplan|away is now known as SirKeplan
<NathanKell>
Actually rsparkyc Pap|MostlyAFK no, you could just have a set of say 5 different resources, and select one randomly per contract
<NathanKell>
that would avoid having to programmatically create a resource and a TANK profile each time
<rsparkyc>
Yeah, that would probably mitigate the issue enough
<rsparkyc>
if you get the same resource, well you got lucky :)
<NathanKell>
Which is fair enough, because sometimes satellite tasks can align :)
<rsparkyc>
yeah
<rsparkyc>
btw, happy Father's day to all the dads out there
<NathanKell>
^
<Theysen_>
you'd NEVER have a LEO satellite which would go to GEO there after
<Saabstory88>
NathanKell: Got everything working well with stretchy tanks, spare for the cost modifier (not ready yet). I should have intertanks, and decouplers. Suppose I should make avionics to, yes? Any thoughts there?
<NathanKell>
Theysen: True. Which means the resources should be by orbit class, too
<NathanKell>
Saabstory88: AWESOME
<NathanKell>
Saabstory88: Yeah, best catch up with rsparkyc on how to do the avionics :)
<rsparkyc>
Saabstory88, whacha making?
<Saabstory88>
Tanks for RP-0 based on historical tank types. They are variable length (with limits). They will include iter-tanks and decouplers of the same diameter
<Saabstory88>
I think it would be eventually the case that procedural tanks become way more expensive (being that they are one-offs), and you use a tank diameter/type you have unlocked for most stages
<NathanKell>
^^^^
<Saabstory88>
I've got the main plugin 80% done (need to impliment cost, easy, but not until I've got good data), and am going to start building the base part models
<egg|nomz|egg>
!wpn NathanKell
* Qboid
gives NathanKell an unaligned adaptive pharmacy which vaguely resembles a demi-cannon
<rsparkyc>
ok, the key with the avionics is making sure you expose the volume of the part the same way procedurals do. Assuming I can get the volume of the part, you can hookup to the ModuleProceduralAvionics
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Hurry up and take your first! :P
<Saabstory88>
rsparkyc: Okay, already have that code
<rsparkyc>
yeah, looks like you're waiting on leudaimon, and to his defense, he said he wouldn't have much time
<NathanKell>
Saabstory88: However I think what you want to expose to Proc Avionics is the volume available for avionics, not the total volume?
<Saabstory88>
I was thinking at the moment, I would make static avionics for each diameter type
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: Oh I know about leudaimon, no worries there. Was just confused that snf was actually the laggard but that was apparently out of date :D
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Pretty MX-1593 :)
<rsparkyc>
for my procedurals, i usually just take the full volume, but if Saabstory88 is making parts with tanks as well as avionics, then yes, i'd need the avionics volume area
<Saabstory88>
rsparkyc: current API allows for custom mass/volume in both tank ends independently, so you can say, have an atlas style tanks which looks and performs properly, but the main cylinder body is still stretchy
<rsparkyc>
that's pretty sweet
<Saabstory88>
Well, it's mostly a modelling challenge now
<rsparkyc>
might need to tweak the procedural avionics code a bit to make it work just right, so feel free to make PRs
<Saabstory88>
I think most of the avionics are going to be static, but using the base models to create some scalable avionics which look better than the default models
<NathanKell>
Ah, ok! That sounds about right then :)
<soundnfury>
but tbh if I waited another 6 months I'd have all the bits for a Vanguard ;)
<NathanKell>
yeah, it's a fool's errand to try to delay that to 57
<soundnfury>
heh yeah
<NathanKell>
really we should start in 55 I guess
<soundnfury>
I think the only reason it took that long IRL was the whole "von braun is now under new management, and not allowed to build anything himself. Oh, and you have to build the new program from the ground up"
<NathanKell>
but then you can't really do early stuff
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Yes, technically possible as of like 48 or 9 or so
<NathanKell>
as verified by RAND's WCSS study
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<leudaimon>
o/
<Qboid>
leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [17.06.2017 05:52:34]: "I mimicked the descent in your pictures. I hit 2G deceleration at 70km, and everything went super fine (other than the exposed antennae burning off as expected). About 11 units of ablator used."
<Qboid>
leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [17.06.2017 05:54:50]: "looks like your issue was that things didn't voxelize right or something, so drag wasn't being applied right"
<Qboid>
leudaimon: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [17.06.2017 05:55:04]: "you're on the latest FAR yes?"
<leudaimon>
NathanKell, I would expect to be on latest FAR, but I'll check when I'm back to my town... I found it weird, because the animation made it look like it was on serious deceleration, but was not even at 1g
<Bornholio>
Rokker http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/122256-some-reference-photos-for-modellers/&page=2#comment-3096228 add to you thread my pictures of atlas thor and blue scout among more space realted pics, apollo capsul and x-38.
<soundnfury>
o/ leudaimon
<leudaimon>
o/ soundnfury
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: Ah, huh
<leudaimon>
soundnfury, you will beat me to Venus, probably by less than a week
<Rokker>
Bornholio: remind me tomorrow
<Bornholio>
ok tomorrow go look :P
<Rokker>
lol
<Rokker>
Bornholio: I'm not gonna be at my computer until like midnight
<Rokker>
and I didn't sleep much last night
<Bornholio>
well then sleep good.
<Bornholio>
I had thought FASA's atlas was to shiny and reflective. Decided that I was wrong. http://imgur.com/YtgG5L9
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: \o/ :)
<leudaimon>
:)
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: Yeah, it's basically just the kind of aluminum you'd use to back a mirror :]
<leudaimon>
will be you first lead, right?
<NathanKell>
although in practice it'd have a sheet of ice
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: yup
<leudaimon>
cool
<Bornholio>
But i've seen it a dozen times and this is the first time i really evaluated it from that sense.
<leudaimon>
almost camouflage with this sky in the background
<NathanKell>
What's the third missile there? Some Nike derivative?
<Bornholio>
Bluescout
<NathanKell>
Ah, yeah
<Saabstory88>
Starwaster: What's the status of reflectivity these days?
<NathanKell>
it's through TR, yeah?
<NathanKell>
see how current FASA does it?
Majiir is now known as Snoozee
<leudaimon>
NathanKell, hadn't seen you had a soviet campaign going on... is it on the new tech tree or the current one?
<NathanKell>
old, but I'm about to restart on the new
* ferram4
reads KSP 1.3 changelog
<ferram4>
Oh, look. I don't have to use reflection to find fairing events.
<ferram4>
But the old code still works.
<ferram4>
Do I change it or not...
<leudaimon>
cool... I'm trying to open it on my potato notebook, but it's not dealing with very well with the bunch of stuff I'm multitasking right now
<egg|nomz|egg>
!wpn ferram4
* Qboid
gives ferram4 a Coxeter egg|egg|egg
egg|nomz|egg is now known as egg
<ferram4>
egg|egg|egg?
<ferram4>
Is that like hold|hold|hold?
<Bornholio>
are all weapons chemistry?
<Starwaster>
saabstory88 I haven't had time to pursue it and Texture Replacer supposedly does the same thing
<Saabstory88>
Okay, I'll look into that, thanks!
<Duncan>
why does the mk1 pod cost 90k, that seems a bit steep
<NathanKell>
That's the R&D for the Mercury program
<NathanKell>
about 90 million dollars in 1965 dollars
<NathanKell>
well, for the capsule portion of the program
<Duncan>
ok
<Duncan>
I suppose it is a complex part
<NathanKell>
In RP-0, 1 fund = $1USD in 1965 dollars
<NathanKell>
We set costs based on historical costs
<Bornholio>
1000$
<NathanKell>
ah right sorry
<NathanKell>
yeah, 1000
<NathanKell>
1 fund = $1000USD in 1965 dollars
<Bornholio>
if i do not use RT is there no proper config for the Commu 16 antenna?
<NathanKell>
I...dunno, sorry
<Bornholio>
k, ii know, use RT dummy, but i hate the RT overhead
<NathanKell>
ya, sorry :\
<NathanKell>
Need to rewrite RT
<NathanKell>
CommNet was designed with RT using it as backend in mind
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<Bornholio>
would the weight go down if it did, comnet seems pretty smooth at first glance. I'm goiing to Issue the antenna's and see about doing a commnet PR if i get the time tomorrow
<NathanKell>
yes, RT's backend is utter crap performance-wise :\
<NathanKell>
Garbage out the wazoo
<NathanKell>
Clean Code (tm)
<egg>
ferram4: yes
<Bornholio>
well it does work as advertised(tm)
<lamont>
RT was written before it was understood that Linq == Garbage
<egg>
ferram4: have a look at the #egg_egg_egg channel
<NathanKell>
lamont: Well, even then, it's reiterating because Clean Code (tm)
<NathanKell>
I mean, even if not for garbage, nested linq means iterating sooo many times
* egg
vaguely groans at the mocking of code quality
<NathanKell>
egg: I'm not mocking good clean code. I'm mocking having nice clean six-linq-statements-in-a-row-because-I-like-functional-programming instead of having, y'know, a playable game.
<Bornholio>
Jettisoned my impactor (sputnik antenna) leaving my lander heading to the moon with 4xCommu16 and no coms .sigh
<egg>
NathanKell: I understand this; but your terse sarcasm is terse enough that it's easily overinterpreted too
<lamont>
cleanly written functional code should be overal better, but not when done by programmers who think that the superficial application of functional programming makes anything better
<egg>
and we have no shortage of unmaintainable code because ~performance concerns~ (without benchmarks, who needs those) in this industry too
SirKeplan is now known as SirKeplanzzz
<lamont>
but that may require writing in Rust or Haskell as well and not on a garbage collected OO language like C#
<egg>
also entirely unrelated, crossposting from #kspacademia, in case someone feels like watching a math lecture (in french) this scratch an itch https://youtu.be/xzVk56EKBUI
<egg>
lamont: eh, it might work with a combination of a better runtime and better use of Linq itself
<Bornholio>
well atleast i get flyby and impactor complete yeah
<egg>
s/scratch/scratched/ I should sleep I cannot into grammar
<egg>
NathanKell: yes I may have leaked some kspacademia into your channel :-p
<NathanKell>
egg, lamont, fair enough :)
<NathanKell>
egg: .... :]
<egg>
\o/ the :] smiley is back \o/
<NathanKell>
So is the crinkle-grin one! :}
<egg>
that looks like a mustache
<NathanKell>
:{
<egg>
that one too yes D:
<egg>
s/D:/:D
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: that one too yes :D
<NathanKell>
Yeah, I guess the former is a Kaiser Willie special
<egg>
user is a prussian soldier: <(:{
<NathanKell>
the latter is more traditional
<NathanKell>
-<(:{
<NathanKell>
Get the pickelhaube right :P
<egg>
:D
<Bornholio>
used a sharpener on that pickle
<egg>
Benuetzer ist der Kaiser: -<(:}
<NathanKell>
^_^
<egg>
my laptop cable has a bad contact
<egg>
keeps stopping charging, also the cable is hot
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NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
regex|AFK is now known as regex
<Bornholio>
egg replace that fast, seen one of my fellow EE's burn up a test stand and laptop from that
<Agathorn>
yeah if a cable is getting hot then its malfunctioning and you need to stop using it immediately
<Agathorn>
don't be one of those darwins in the paper
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<egg>
yeah, unplugged and made a note on the cheshire cat on the whiteboard to buy a new adapter
<Bornholio>
Commu Antenna rating @antennaPower = 32 is this my problem, its just somehow nil power rating?
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<soundnfury>
Pap: in First Weather Satellite part of the requirements text says ComSatBus rather than WeatherSatBus
<soundnfury>
copypaste error?
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<regex>
Wow, okay, base install of RSS, RO, and RP-0, no recommended mods, onlyt required except for RCS Build Aid, still getting the issue with those 28N thrusters.