<Starwaster>
pap stock aero or FAR? And was it well inside the fairing? Or near the edges?
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<Rokker>
stratochief hey
<Rokker>
dont forget
<Rokker>
isro launch
<rsparkyc>
7:58 EDT, i'll just be getting up
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<acc>
morn
<rtnb>
hi all, trying to get RO/RP-0 working on 1.2.2 but im not getting any contracts or the RP-0 menu when i start a new game
<rtnb>
any ideas?
<acc>
rtnb: how do you install it?
<acc>
CKAN or manual?
<rtnb>
acc: ive tried both
<rtnb>
manual for RP-0
<rtnb>
built the Tree.cfg file with perl as instructed
<acc>
and you don't get any rp-0 contract at all?
<rtnb>
no contracts at all
<rtnb>
and when I used to play on 1.1 I remember an RP-0 menu pops up when you start a new game
<rtnb>
but that isn't happening now
<leudaimon>
RP-0 menu?
<rtnb>
yeah
<rsparkyc>
i remember the KCT menu, where you select the RP-0 preset
<acc>
that's usually to pick the settings for kerbal construction time
<rsparkyc>
is that what you mean?
<acc>
yeah
<rtnb>
rsparkyc yes
<rsparkyc>
sounds like you don't have KCT installed then
<rsparkyc>
but that sholudn't matter for contracts
<rsparkyc>
does back RO work?
<acc>
what does the debug console says? any errors?
<rsparkyc>
*basic
<rtnb>
how do i access the debug console?
<acc>
alt+F12
<rtnb>
Under contracts it says "Contract system is not available at this time!"
<acc>
hm
<rsparkyc>
i know they just released contract configurator for 1.3, maybe you got the wrong version?
<rtnb>
i have the ckan version
<rtnb>
for 1.2.2
<acc>
hm, weird
<rsparkyc>
there's a contract configurator menu (alt+f11 maybe)
<rsparkyc>
maybe you can look in there?
<leudaimon>
are you on Pap-contract branch or master branch?
<rtnb>
contract configurator had an update available in ckan so i just got that, and KCT so im restarting, let you know in a sec
<rsparkyc>
one way to make sure you have RP-0 installed properly is to see if avionics units have a mass limitation on them
<rsparkyc>
and you'll also have a new procedural avionics part
<rtnb>
just in VAB parts menu?
<rsparkyc>
yep
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<rsparkyc>
pap stratochief leudaimon NathanKell|AWAY, i'm working on requiring you to purchase new proc avi configs. I'm thinking of setting the entry cost to 2x that of the equivalent non-procedural unit
<rsparkyc>
i figure you need to pay extra for the ability to tweak it
<leudaimon>
don't you think 2x would put people away from it?
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<leudaimon>
if you compare that to procedural tanks, whose upgrades are free...
<acc>
leudaimon: entry cost
<rsparkyc>
not if they don't know how cool it is :)
<acc>
ah, oh, ok
<rsparkyc>
well, i don't think 1x is fair
<leudaimon>
i think you can start with 1x, and tweak from there
<rsparkyc>
do you complain about the cost of upgrading engines?
<rsparkyc>
there you pay an entry fee AND and unlock cost for newer tech
<rsparkyc>
oh, i should clairify:
<rsparkyc>
any costs you put in already count toward the next increment
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<acc>
I disable entry cost anyways :>
<leudaimon>
yeah, but newer tech is a new engine... proc avi upgrade is similar to tech level in RCS, which is free
<rsparkyc>
no it's not
<rsparkyc>
you totally need to unlock new RCS tech
<rsparkyc>
i just paid 5x for NOX
<rsparkyc>
s/5x/5k
<Qboid>
rsparkyc meant to say: i just paid 5k for NOX
<leudaimon>
you unlock new fuels, but the tech level, that goes from 0 to 7 is free
<rsparkyc>
ahh, that's true
<leudaimon>
same for tank diameter upgrades
<leudaimon>
that's why I think 1x for now is a good comprimise
<leudaimon>
compromise*
<rsparkyc>
want to meet halfway and say 1.5?
<rsparkyc>
plus, you aren't paying full price
<rsparkyc>
with new avionics units, you are
<rsparkyc>
with procedural, i'm only charing you the diff between what node x costs, and what you've already purchased
<rsparkyc>
and i want to make sure procedural is more expensive, since you can customize them
<leudaimon>
I see... go for 1.5, things will be seriously rebalanced in the new tech tree anyway
<rsparkyc>
ok, 1.5 it is, and of course we can tweak it later on a per-node basis if we want
<rsparkyc>
i wish i could get paid for this...
<leudaimon>
lol
<Pap>
Starwaster: It is FAR and it is well within the fairing
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, what do you think about using a progression inspired by the tech levels in rcs instead of using the non-procedural parts as a model when rebalancing this for the new tech tree?
<rsparkyc>
the problem is i have nothing to really base my numbers on
<rsparkyc>
other than the parts we already have
<rsparkyc>
but i'm open to suggestions if you want to tweak the nodes we have now
<rtnb>
working now, guess i needed the contract configurator update
<rsparkyc>
really i just wanted to set up the infrastructure for procedural avionics, i'm less concerned about the nodes we add
<leudaimon>
sure... I'm getting to understand better how the system works, might try some system for progression once I advance more in the career
<rsparkyc>
cool, and hopefully the unlock system will be done this week
<leudaimon>
nice
<rsparkyc>
(maybe tonight, we'll see)
<rsparkyc>
people are already asking me for 1.3 updates for procedural fairings…what did i get myself into?
<leudaimon>
well, gtg... good luck!
<rsparkyc>
and honestly i've only heard from about 15% of the people logged into this room, who the heck are the rest of y'all
<leudaimon>
lol
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<soundnfury>
!tell leudaimon RCS tech levels are only free up to TL2. After that there are unlock costs
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
nick Pap|Sleep
<Rokker>
Pap: launch in 9 ahora
<acc>
hey Pap
<rsparkyc>
pap forgot a slash
<acc>
I see
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<NathanKell>
o/
<rsparkyc>
o\
<rsparkyc>
fail...
<rsparkyc>
\o
<rsparkyc>
soundnfury, RIS serve idea, sort players by date
<NathanKell>
Pap rsparkyc soundnfury I just realized.
<rsparkyc>
also, maybe tag who holds the min date so it's easy to see?
<NathanKell>
I'm playing the Soviet Space Program
<NathanKell>
I.e. 'go for the showy firsts, not actual capability'
<rsparkyc>
lol
<NathanKell>
Like how they did the first rendezvous with Vostoks
<NathanKell>
I acheived lunar orbit, but it was a stunt basically :]
<ferram4>
Well, it's not like manufacturing lines are modelled
<ferram4>
So that's the way to do it
<NathanKell>
yeah, that's the problem
<NathanKell>
we really desperately need that, esp for proc part balancing
<ferram4>
Oh, also, I've noticed something.
<ferram4>
You never use Saturn/Nova stringers for your interstages.
<rsparkyc>
NathanKell: you going ot build it?
<ferram4>
They are supported you know.
<NathanKell>
ferram4: I used to. But the lines _just barely_ don't match up with the tanks
<acc>
hey NathanKell, ferram4
<NathanKell>
bothers me more than the Atlas stringers, which more obviously don't match and don't trigger me
<NathanKell>
heya acc
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: I was planning to, back in the day. Never got to it. Thinking about how to do it cheaply
<NathanKell>
Certainly how to minimally extend Proc Parts to support TF failures by tank size, at the very least
<ferram4>
The only error that I've seen that's really hideous is when you use only 1 fairing side, which stretches the texture out for some reason
<acc>
NathanKell: just watched your latest stream. tip for node execution via MJ: set the tolerance do 1 instead of 0.1, then it will be nice :)
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<acc>
s/do/to
<Qboid>
acc meant to say: NathanKell: just watched your latest stream. tip for node execution via MJ: set the tolerance to 1 instead of 0.1, then it will be nice :)
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Also that, I generally only use 1 node for interstages
<NathanKell>
acc: I have it set to 9. It still overburns.
<acc>
oh, hm
<NathanKell>
MJ burn code expects throttleability
<acc>
yeah
<acc>
but usually that tollerance to 1 compensates that for me
<NathanKell>
ok I'll try at 1
<NathanKell>
ferram4: I'll try to remember to use them next time and see. But every time recently, they don't quite match the tank stringers' normal map
<NathanKell>
you know what, why not
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<acc>
heh
<xShadowx>
NathanKell extend PP for TF failures? tank leak? (not sure what other failure for PP) when PP adjusts tank size, what kinda failure you want?;3
<NathanKell|Twitch>
tank leak, tank rupture/explosion
<Agathorn>
TF already has a leak failure
<xShadowx>
already has a leak failure
<Agathorn>
:)
<xShadowx>
bigger tanks = higher chance?
<Agathorn>
the problem that NK has is that configuring TF to actually connect to PP tanks in a sane way is hard to do
<xShadowx>
PP tank size change could grab TF failure for leak, adjust chance
<Agathorn>
would require absoluitely huge configs
<xShadowx>
ah cuz the interop crap?
<Agathorn>
crap!?
<Agathorn>
pfft
<xShadowx>
:)
<Agathorn>
I worked hard on making that work
<xShadowx>
i wonder if could make smaller cfg with some fancy MM
<Agathorn>
and its poweerful enough to do the job here.. it would just require a lot of configs
<Agathorn>
sure but it would all compile down into the final config
<Agathorn>
and NK had concnerns with performance
<xShadowx>
during play?o.O
<Agathorn>
during load
<xShadowx>
idgaf about load :D
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<xShadowx>
that said, be nice if could save the database to a file after load - as a better step than MM saving cache
<xShadowx>
no clue if possible tho :(
<xShadowx>
even just part db would be a big step
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<xShadowx>
oh other day i had an idea, a mod similar to what TF interop does for TF, but more standalone mod to track every configurable mod, so PP/RF/PF/etc, soon as a part of configured, save that exact preset that can go back and use in future
<xShadowx>
then if a 'new' one not matching current presets, new entry cost etc
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: mind if i borrow a bit of the code? gonna try taking a stab at my idea
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<xShadowx>
hmm found where to hook PP/RF, but not PF -.-
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<Duncan>
Hi all, I have this issue - I played all day yesterday without problems. Today when I load my game I get an instant crash to desktop on exiting the ship construction building
<Duncan>
this occurs even if no ship is loaded - load game, enter construction building, exit construction building, crash. Every time
<Duncan>
anyone seen this kind of behaviour?
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: has there been any progress on KSP-RO/RealSolarSystem#91 ?
<Duncan>
I installed RO on 1.3 as well and had the same thing (currently 1.2.2)
<acc>
hm, weird
<acc>
checked your RAM? might be something wrong with one
<Duncan>
I just checked if it was a ram issue and it does not appear to be
<acc>
hm, ok
<Duncan>
right, bad ram, I will check that too
<Duncan>
I had just checked if it was too much usage
<Duncan>
have to restart pc for that
<Duncan>
or not, windows says it cant run a memory test and wont explain why
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<acc>
so might be the RAM
<Duncan>
or it could be any number of other retarded windows issues like internet explorer not being the default browser or having a non-default number format
<Duncan>
I will find a third party memtest tool
<acc>
ok, good luck
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<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: not that I'm aware of. I re-installed windows at some point, and no longer have the ability to edit that file type
<stratochief>
one of the people who regularly works on making new planets of their own might be capable of adjusting that fairly easily?
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<Rokker>
stratochief: DID YOU WATCH IT
<Rokker>
stratochief: D I D Y O U W A T C H I T
<stratochief>
Rokker: yep, I'm a little bit behind Live, but it appears India can into space
<Rokker>
stratochief: HOLY SHIT
<stratochief>
around 10 ton capacity to LEO, not too shabby
<Rokker>
they have cameras on the rocket
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<stratochief>
Rokker: oh? I don't recall seeing that
<Duncan>
so while the memtest was running I remembered that the first time this issue occurred I didn't even have RO installed
<stratochief>
I'm mostly watching an Indian guy talking into his CB radio, and watching a KONRAD-like readout of altitute and speed :P
<Duncan>
I guess I am asking in the wrong channel
<stratochief>
Duncan: in general, start building an install from scratch (only KSP) to isolate/fix issues
<Rokker>
stratochief: they have one to watch the payload sep it looks like
<stratochief>
Duncan: are you running the x64 version, for example? if not, I think the x32 version will crash when it runs out of 32 bit memory space?
<Duncan>
yes I am running x64
<stratochief>
Rokker: cool. I'm excited for India to have such a capable rocket, capable of a human spaceflight program
<Rokker>
stratochief: oh god
<Duncan>
actually now that I think about it
<Rokker>
its like 1 picture every 2 seconds
<Duncan>
does steam start x64 on 64 os by default?
<Rokker>
and its a shit pic
<stratochief>
Duncan: nope.
<stratochief>
Duncan: I use the CKAN command line setter to set which version I launch, personally. also to add options to let me do windowed fullscreen, "KSP_x64.exe -popupwindow"
<stratochief>
Duncan: but to start, you could just go to the KSP folder itself and load up the x64 exe
<Duncan>
yeah I know I am doing that now
<Duncan>
i will be quite annoyed with steam if that is the issue
<Duncan>
on the other hand I will be able to play
<stratochief>
I haven't booted KSP through steam in soooo long. but steam still has me marked at about ~1000 hours in KSP :P
<stratochief>
my true number has to be between 3000 and 5000
<Duncan>
facepalm
<Duncan>
why would steam start 32 bit by default that is just retarded
<Duncan>
anyway, thanks
<stratochief>
you are welcome. always second guess everything. if you haven't confirmed something, assume it is not true
<stratochief>
your crash log would also have stated it was the x32 version
<HypergolicSkunk>
Rokker: do the draco thrusters have different throttle settings? or does the Dragon have a set of big dracos, and a set of small ones, too?
<HypergolicSkunk>
if they are throttleable, I wonder whether that's only true for cold-gas, or also for stuff like hydrazine, mmh+nto, cavea-b etc.
<stratochief>
HypergolicSkunk: why not 'throttle' with small pulses?
<HypergolicSkunk>
stratochief: I'm sure that works with cold-gas
<HypergolicSkunk>
but what about hypergolics?
<stratochief>
HypergolicSkunk: I believe so, at least for some. IIRC, that works for monopropellants. once you've heated the catalyst bed, you can throw long or short pulses of hydrazyne over it?
<stratochief>
maybe not so for bipropellants, or at least I'd imagine it would be harder
<Pap>
o/ stratochief
<Pap>
o/ HypergolicSkunk
<HypergolicSkunk>
hola Pap !
<Rokker>
HypergolicSkunk: its just pulses
<HypergolicSkunk>
stratochief: that's gotta be some real decent control method, then. when i think about how utterly incapable Mechjeb is using RCS to kill rotation
<HypergolicSkunk>
I always have to reduce the thrusters' .... well, thrust, to like 1-2 %
<HypergolicSkunk>
so I wondered whether that is realistic
<HypergolicSkunk>
(mid-mission, I mean)
<stratochief>
HypergolicSkunk: you're free to dig into the source-code and do better, if you can :P
<HypergolicSkunk>
haha :D
<HypergolicSkunk>
I was not blaming anyone
<stratochief>
the code for mechjeb was made for stock, so certain bits may not be as precise/ideal as we may like for RO
<HypergolicSkunk>
I'm sure it's some crazy math involved
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<HypergolicSkunk>
stratochief: one thing I would like to see in the future is RCS being used sparingly for rotation. like, give it a little nudge, then wait, then stabilize.
<stratochief>
with stock, you just use the crazy-overpowered reaction wheel to set your orientation. RCS is mostly for medium scale translation
<HypergolicSkunk>
for now, i do that manually :)
<HypergolicSkunk>
yeah, which is why I use reaction wheels on all comsats
<stratochief>
HypergolicSkunk: yeah, same here. that could be tricky, but an interesting narrow programming challenge
<Duncan>
I am having some issues with the AJ10 mid, it stalls and when I try to restart it the throttle jumps between 0 and full 1000 times per second but it never restarts
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<HypergolicSkunk>
Duncan: ullage?
<acc>
aye, sounds like fuel not settled
<Duncan>
cant see how, it burns for about a quarter of the tank before the issue starts
<HypergolicSkunk>
check your Mechjeb settings
<HypergolicSkunk>
maybe Max Throttle
<Duncan>
although, if you are saying that the throttle jumping like that is not a bug then it could be any number of other things
<HypergolicSkunk>
may be hidden in one of the Mechjeb windows, like 'max throttle', 'max acceleration', etc
<Duncan>
yeah i had all those unchecked
<Duncan>
I will look again though
<HypergolicSkunk>
make sure none of the subwindows is highlighted in the main Mechjeb drop-down menu
<Duncan>
thing is I turned off autopilot and it still happened
<stratochief>
Duncan: if you right click the engine, it should report fuel stability. what does that say?
<Duncan>
well it is very unstable now
<HypergolicSkunk>
I only ever had that happen to me when in the mechjeb window called 'utilities' I had one of the options enabled, which was actually disabled in the Ascent Guidance window
<Duncan>
ok thanks that looks like it
<Duncan>
there was an option called prevent unstable ignition
<HypergolicSkunk>
that only fires your RCS
<HypergolicSkunk>
to prevent ullage issues
<HypergolicSkunk>
shouldnt be responsible for the issue you describe
<Duncan>
well I turned it off and the issue went away
<stratochief>
Duncan: engine won't/ shouldn't fire if the fuel is unstable. otherwise, it will just attempt to light, fail, and waste ignitions
<Duncan>
the engine is running fine, accelerating, then it turns off and starts spazzing out
<Duncan>
when I turned off that option it stopped spazzing and fired normally
<HypergolicSkunk>
are you streaming?
<HypergolicSkunk>
ah
<Duncan>
no
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<stratochief>
Duncan: the fuel could be unstable, even when the engine is running. like, if atmospheric drag is slowing your craft more than the firing engine is accelerating it. if you can reproduce the situation, try pinning the window for the engine open and watch the fuel stability
<stratochief>
*fuel could become unstable
<Duncan>
the craft was accelerating
<Duncan>
I am going to relaunch with that option off and see if it still cuts out
<Duncan>
if it does not then it is definitely a problem with mechjb
<acc>
do you have the latest dev version of MJ?
<Duncan>
i got it from ckan, I assume so
<Duncan>
but anyway it still happened
<HypergolicSkunk>
CKAN will only give you the latest dev version of MJ if you change CKAN's repository
<HypergolicSkunk>
at least that was the case last year
<HypergolicSkunk>
can you make screens of your Mechjeb drop-down menu in flight?
<stratochief>
Duncan: and what did the fuel stability report before and after engine shutting down? what altitude were you at?
<Agathorn>
ckan's MJ is usually ancient
<stratochief>
yeah, ckan certainly doesn't have the most recent MJ by defualt
<Duncan>
I looked away for a second it happened quite suddenly. But it said very stable the last time I looked
<stratochief>
also, this is why I record always when I'm testing. then I can just check back on the video to grab other relevant parametres
<Duncan>
I will try one more time
<stratochief>
I'm guessing atmo-drag decel, that seems to be common
<HypergolicSkunk>
Duncan: if you could somehow record this.. and upload it to youtube, f.e. :)
<Duncan>
can do
<stratochief>
which also makes me marvel at the solid motor ullaging of the S-II stage, such a beast, and the fuel Needed to be ullaged before engine ignition, or else the largest launch vehicle ever wasn't going to space today
<HypergolicSkunk>
pellets need ullage, too?
<stratochief>
pellets?
<HypergolicSkunk>
isn't that what SRB fuel looks like?
<stratochief>
lol. well, maybe a tiny bit. assymetric grains, of powder, IIRC?
<stratochief>
no, the pellets didn't need ullaging, they produced the thrust to ullage hundreds of tons of LH2 and lo2
<HypergolicSkunk>
ow, lol, sry, misread
<HypergolicSkunk>
the ullaging was done BY solid motors, not TO them :p
<stratochief>
I believe a higher quality video example exists. I need to keep a bookmark folder for epic historic space videos
<HypergolicSkunk>
having a hard time seeing something there
<HypergolicSkunk>
looks like a separation event, obviously :p
<Duncan>
what does limit AoA mean in mechjeb?
<HypergolicSkunk>
in relation to your prograde vector
<HypergolicSkunk>
it tries to stay near it
<stratochief>
angle of attack, keep the rocket pointed in the direction of motion/travel
<Duncan>
well turning that off solved the problem
<HypergolicSkunk>
how crazy were you steering inside the atmosphere? :P
<Duncan>
top of the atmo
<Duncan>
like around 80 I think
<HypergolicSkunk>
hm
<HypergolicSkunk>
well I'm glad it's fixed :)
<stratochief>
Duncan: was mechjeb auto-ascent program running when the engine shut down?
<Duncan>
yes
<Agathorn>
stratochief: you look around 3:25 in the video you linked and you can almost somewtimes understand why people think it was all fake
<Agathorn>
that looks so odd with the rocket actually casting a shadow on the sky.. looks like the hwoole thing is in front of a greenscreen :D
<Agathorn>
Duncan: is you orbit altituide set stupidly high? if not it was probably cutting off to cvoast
<stratochief>
Agathorn: lol. I understand scepticism and curiosity, not stupidity :P
<Duncan>
but why switch on and off 100 times per second after that?
<Agathorn>
stratochief: yeah was just saying that looks so very weird in that shot
<stratochief>
those 60's video cameras were abhorently bad compared to more modern hardware. the pattern that bright engine plumes makes on those cameras at launch is also interesting
<Agathorn>
anyway I need to head off to work
<stratochief>
Duncan: if you're looking for explanations of things only you are seeing, you're not going to find that here
<HypergolicSkunk>
Duncan: if you want, i can stream a MJ assisted Ascent and show you the settings I use
<stratochief>
yeah, I think Agathorn is right about mechjeb
<Duncan>
no its fine the issue seems to be gone now
<Duncan>
there seem to be a lot of settings in mechjeb that just wreck everything if not set perfectly
<HypergolicSkunk>
stratochief: which is weird. have you watched Trinity & Beyond? they certainly HAD great camera technology back then already
<HypergolicSkunk>
Duncan: that's why it's so powerful
<stratochief>
mechjeb's ascent for stock gets the AP to a certain height, then cuts off the engine to 'coast to AP', which isn't how an RSS or RO launch works
<stratochief>
based on agathorn's prediction, I would anticipate either A. not reaching orbit (AP condition to cutoff never satisfied) or B. the engine cutting out later now instead, since it pitched down earlier but still ends up with the same problem, trying to coast
<stratochief>
HypergolicSkunk: great in certain situations. recording rockets at a great distance, not so much
<HypergolicSkunk>
Duncan: care to make a screen of your Ascent Guidance window?
<Duncan>
dont worry about it
<stratochief>
at least the live TV video equipment
<HypergolicSkunk>
HypergolicSkunk: also no go-pros back then :p
<HypergolicSkunk>
Duncan: just trying to help
<Duncan>
I appreciate it
<Duncan>
but I think the problem is my inexperience with mechjeb
<Duncan>
so I will just tinker some more
<HypergolicSkunk>
that's why I'm asking for a screen of your Ascent Guidance window :p
<HypergolicSkunk>
turn that Corrective Steering option off, I think
<HypergolicSkunk>
it has never done me any good (or bad)
<Duncan>
I assumed that was required for sterring
<Duncan>
thanks
<HypergolicSkunk>
and if you want to do a proper gravity turn in RO/RSS, best type in a high number like 2000000km into Orbit Altitude. Enable Skip Circularization
<HypergolicSkunk>
and then edit the Ascent Path, so that the Turn End Altitude is above 100km, preferably 120km, depending on your TWR
<HypergolicSkunk>
all of this means you'll have to circularize manually
<Duncan>
ok
<Duncan>
what are the advantages of doing it like that?
<Pap>
Duncan: it means that it will not cut the throttle once it reaches a low AP like it does in stock
<HypergolicSkunk>
it will burn until stage-burnout
<HypergolicSkunk>
which is how it's done in real life, more or less
<HypergolicSkunk>
talking out of my rearside here, only got my KSP experience :p
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<Agathorn>
Duncan: see that orbit altitude of 150 is what I was talking about.. needs to be stupidlu high or else MJ might (often does) cut the throttle as your AP gets close to it
<HypergolicSkunk>
and that's where the 'Turn End Altitude' in the 'Edit Ascent Path' option comes in
<Agathorn>
of course even ocne you get all the settings perfect, MJ will still screw you at random times
<Agathorn>
I swear MJ is amost as bad as TestFlight at screwing you sometimes :)
<Pap>
That's not true Agathorn, Test Flight is number 1 at screwing you, money back guarantee
<HypergolicSkunk>
MJ is doing weird things right now for me in the Gemini Reentry capsule. setting it to SVEL- with all options (Pitch, Yaw, Roll) disabled still makes it pitch up and down all the time, wasting precious HTP. even setting the thrusters to very very low doesn't remove the problem, only lessens the amount of steering up and down
<HypergolicSkunk>
didnt have that particular issue in the white Gemini capsule with the red cross on it, or in the Mk1 Capsule
<HypergolicSkunk>
sorry Valentina, I really wanted to give you a low-G reentry, but it looks like you're going to be 2cm shorter when you land :p
<stratochief>
could be re-entry mode? that causes the capsule to tilt on purpose, to generate lift to reduce G's on entry
<stratochief>
in that case, I would just want mechjeb to keep my roll within a certain range, and not bother controlling the pitch or yaw
<HypergolicSkunk>
it's the only capsule without a descent-mode :(
<HypergolicSkunk>
it's also pitching when pitch are disabled
<HypergolicSkunk>
*is
<HypergolicSkunk>
never experienced this particular bu---- behavior
<stratochief>
which? Gemini certain has a re-entry mode, or else my astronauts wouldn't have survived the return from Luna
<HypergolicSkunk>
my black Gemini reentry capsule doesn't show it in the context menu
<HypergolicSkunk>
the white one does
<stratochief>
odd, it should. you got something bad
<HypergolicSkunk>
as always :D
<HypergolicSkunk>
mu current install seems to have some issues anyway. when I'm around any body other than Earth, apoapsis and periapsis appear as 'infinite' in Mechjeb, and creating a node and letting MJ set it to Periapsis results in a CTD.
<HypergolicSkunk>
but for now I can't be bothered starting a new career. all those comsats around Earth and the Moon were soooo much work
<stratochief>
HypergolicSkunk: have you tried different versions of mechjeb? does that also happen with the Moon, or 'just' other planets?
<Duncan>
can anyone offer me advice on an orbital launch vehicle for small satellites with low tech on rp-0?
<HypergolicSkunk>
it happened with both the Moon and Mars
<HypergolicSkunk>
havent tried a new MJ version yet. it's the next thing I'll try, ty :)
<stratochief>
Duncan: I usually just borrow inspiration from historical vehicles. like, Thor-Able
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<stratochief>
or, if you like the russian look, an R-7 variant is always fun
<HypergolicSkunk>
or...
<HypergolicSkunk>
do what NK did...
<HypergolicSkunk>
and build a sounding-rocket contraption that actually makes it to orbit :D
<egg|zzz|egg>
HypergolicSkunk: are you using principia?
<HypergolicSkunk>
not yet :[
<HypergolicSkunk>
I am afraid
<egg|zzz|egg>
(ok, because pitch up in space was an issue, #1307, for principia users)
<HypergolicSkunk>
nah, this just steers up and down and up and down and.. you get the idea
<HypergolicSkunk>
one of you guys should make a video sometimes on how to do a proper RO/RSS/RP-0 installation
<HypergolicSkunk>
because it seems that every install, even if using the exact same mods, is unique
<stratochief>
HypergolicSkunk: same happens to me; scott manley and a few people have made videos. those videos are immediately out of date, as one of 100 mods updates :P
<HypergolicSkunk>
hah, true
<stratochief>
same happens to me, as in every install has a unique nature
<HypergolicSkunk>
that's good to know. most of the time I think it's just me.
<HypergolicSkunk>
like both Gemini capsules' RCS thrusters having 800 degrees heat resistance, making them blow up during descent-guided reentries
<stratochief>
'both' ?
<HypergolicSkunk>
one's black, one's white
<stratochief>
the roll control pack onto of the Gemini should be in the air flow shadow, is that the part you mean?
<HypergolicSkunk>
I don't know which part exactly. there's an RCS thruster in both capsules the staging-icon of which cannot be disabled in the VAB
<HypergolicSkunk>
that icon starts heating up during reentry
<HypergolicSkunk>
it's no problem when going ballistic, but if I use some sort of lift, the temp gets too high and the capsule explodes
<stratochief>
odd. double check that your FAR is working. past that, check the update to DRE, or try with vs without DRE
<HypergolicSkunk>
will do
<stratochief>
I am 'careful' in when I kick in re-entry mode, around half a G of decel. otherwise, it bobs around too much in the airstream and exposes the RCS pack
<HypergolicSkunk>
you dont use it all the way down?
<stratochief>
nope. otherwise, I waste too much time trying to get it to sit at whatever the proper pitch is, with imprecise RCS
<Duncan>
ha thats kind of funny
<Duncan>
the thing I designed while experimenting is a two stage with the thor engine for stage 1 and the able engine for stage 2
<Duncan>
leaving me also with the question why my version only makes it to about 5km/s
<stratochief>
Duncan: yep, that works as a straightforward early small sat launcher. if you want a little more performance, the thor engine upgrades, or you can stretch the tank and add booster solids like reality did (making the Delta rocket)
<Duncan>
how important is streamlining the profile?
<stratochief>
Duncan: payload too heavy, is my guess. what do you define as a 'small satellite', and what orbit are you shooting for
<Duncan>
in kerbal
<stratochief>
'kerbal', or RSS/RO?
<HypergolicSkunk>
if you use FAR, I guess it's important :P
<stratochief>
stock is still all crazy, really punishes you for breaking the sound barrier before like 15km w/o FAR
<Duncan>
my small satellite is a small early avionics unit with a thermometer and a barometer and an arial
<Pap>
Remember Duncan, the earliest payloads were extremely small, nothing you have launched in early stock game would make it close
<Duncan>
well two of each for balance
<Agathorn>
mass?
<stratochief>
Duncan: description is nice, but mass is what matters.
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<Agathorn>
or even better open MJ and show all stats and post a pic (from the VAB)
<Agathorn>
Duncan: well like I aid if you can post the MJ stats the peopel here are usually really good about telling you exactly how to optimize each stage :)
<Agathorn>
but it really coms down to many, many factors so its hard to say
<Agathorn>
just keep tweaking (said in a Dory voice)
<stratochief>
if you get to within a few seconds of historical burntime, you can make something very similarly performant to the historical version in general
<Duncan>
I want to learn to understand better so it is not important that you give advice on how to make a launch vehicle, rather how to read all this data and how to optimise things in a general way would be helpful
<stratochief>
yikes, really short burn times. the real thing is nearly twice as heavy
<Duncan>
so I just double the sizes of the tanks?
<Pap>
Duncan: each engine has a rated burn time
<Agathorn>
first thing that jumps out at me is you have a really high bostter SLT
<Duncan>
What is the optimal power to weight ratio?
<Pap>
So you want to make your engines large enough to essentially get within close margins to those rated burn times
<Duncan>
SLT?
<Agathorn>
what engine are you using for your first stage?
<Agathorn>
SLT = Sea Level TWR
<Duncan>
LR79
<Agathorn>
TWR = Thrust to Weight Ratio
<Agathorn>
Are you using TestFlight?
<Duncan>
no, these things are about as expensive to launch as to simulate so I havent been bothering
<Agathorn>
Most likely you need to make a larger first stage tank but if you are using TestFlight you need to keep an eye on your burn time, which can be see by middle clicking the engine
<Agathorn>
err TestFlight has nothing to do with sims :)
<HypergolicSkunk>
TestFlight makes your parts go boom :p
<Duncan>
that is a useful tip, wish I had known that
<Duncan>
oh right sorry I mix up those mods
<Duncan>
so what is a good slt for stage 1?
<HypergolicSkunk>
> 1.2
<Duncan>
and is streamlining important?
<Agathorn>
well I mean its a rocket, it is pretty clean by default
<Pap>
TestFlight was created by a bad person that likes to watch people in pain
<Duncan>
irl my thing would never work as you can see in the cap
<Agathorn>
your top section looks like a bumper
<HypergolicSkunk>
Pap: that from the man who put landing gear in a higher node than Lunar Descent engines :p
<Duncan>
I could add a conical tank to stage 1 and widen the stage 2 tank
<HypergolicSkunk>
Duncan: no wings/stabilizers on the first stage?
<Duncan>
I guess making it look good is also worthwhile
<Duncan>
there are winglets, they are out of frame
<Agathorn>
yeah this early you probalby want some fins
<HypergolicSkunk>
ah
<Agathorn>
so do this.. take what you have, middle click each engine to see its burn time, then extand/enlarge each stage tank to get to that burn time or a few seconds under it
<Duncan>
well the info about SLT and also middle mouse on the engine was the most useful so far, thanks for that
<Agathorn>
and see what that gives you for ∆v
<Duncan>
so the engine burn time is a recommended/optimal that should be aimed for?
<Agathorn>
it is a rating of how long that engine realstically is able to burn bfore tearing itself aprt
<Agathorn>
you can certainly go under, but goign over is a bad idea
<Agathorn>
and if you are uner you probably aren't fully utilizing the engine to begin with
<Agathorn>
tl;dr yes :)
<Duncan>
thanks
<Pap>
last step Duncan, pray to the god of Agathorn to look kindly upon your engines during theirattempted ascent into the heavens
<Duncan>
ok maybe I misunderstood something, the maximum tank size does not reach the burn time for an LR79, is that normal?
<Pap>
correct, you want to start increasing and decreasing in order to match the correct burn times
<Duncan>
so add a second tank?
<stratochief>
tanks can be made larger in diametre, also taller
<Agathorn>
um you should be ble to i think.. maybe increase the diameter? I don't recall running into that
<Duncan>
the maximum in both dimensions is not enough
<Agathorn>
that seems odd
<Duncan>
2mx15m gives me a burn time of 2.29
<stratochief>
procedural tanks doesn't limit the length, last I checked
<Pap>
Clear your tanks, you might have the wrong micture of fuel in there?
<Duncan>
SLT is still over 1.2 though so it should work
<Agathorn>
yeah I would try emptying the tank and redoing the autofil
<Agathorn>
I assume you are using hte LR79-NA3 which has a burn time of 165 seconds
<Duncan>
tried that, no change
<Agathorn>
huh
<Agathorn>
I blame Pap
<Pap>
^ sounds accurate :)
<Agathorn>
I don't recall tanks being limited on length
<Duncan>
is the NA3 default?
<Agathorn>
other than VAB/Pad limits
<Duncan>
how do you change to alternate engine configs?
<Agathorn>
well the NA3 is the earliest config
<Agathorn>
right click the engine -> engine gui
<Agathorn>
hey stratochief
<Agathorn>
did you see my new UI?
<stratochief>
Agathorn: speaking of crazy canada, how about your provincial politics?
<stratochief>
Agathorn: I believe so, yep. looked pretty solid
<stratochief>
although a demo video might again be in order :)
<Agathorn>
I honestly don't pay much attentio to local politics unless a coworked says somethng lol
<Agathorn>
demo video will come once its all hooked up..right now its just a static..or mostly static..mockup
<Agathorn>
sinceI can't vote in anything it seems kind of pointless
<stratochief>
Agathorn: well, fair enough. but who is your premier now? I entirely missed your provincial election
<stratochief>
nobody has a majority, so there could even be another election shortly to resolve it
<Agathorn>
no idea.. I knew they were voting
<Agathorn>
but I don't even know who they were voting between :D
<Pap>
stratochief: you don't use some antiquated system that only partially reflects popular vote? Amateurs
<stratochief>
Liberal, NDP, Conservative, Green. more or less the same in all provinces. Cons don't have a serious presence in BC, IIRC
<stratochief>
Pap: oh no, we certainly still use first past the post, which fails that test.
<Agathorn>
Pap there is a good reason popular vote insn't used
<Duncan>
show me a country in the world with a functioning democracy right now
<Pap>
I know that Agathorn
<stratochief>
france? germany? canada?
<Agathorn>
Just because the US elected a dickhead doesn't mean the system is flawed
<Agathorn>
shh..it happens
<Duncan>
it kind of does imo
<Pap>
France is functioning, but still scary that a radical had too much support
<Duncan>
and france missed out on a far right populist by the skin of their teeth, and were forced to vote in a banker no one really wanted just to beat her
<Pap>
Duncan: not really, democracy is bad because you might elect a shitty person
<Agathorn>
I'd argue the opposite, it shows it IS funtioning
<stratochief>
Pap: the less radical candidates dropped out in france due to corruption scandals, IIRC.
<Agathorn>
it just shows that people are too stupid in general
<Duncan>
if a bad president was elected who the majority of the population wanted in power, maybe
<Pap>
Duncan: but, monarchies are bad because you will have a shitty ass leader through that system as well
<Duncan>
I am not a monarchist, you dont need to convince me that that is a bad road
<Agathorn>
arguably Trump shows that the concept of a democracy is flawed.. which isn't a surprise to anyone, least of all democracies.. but like they say, Deomocracy isn't the best form of government
<Duncan>
I am also not saying democracy cant work
<Duncan>
I am just saying it is not currently working
<Pap>
Duncan: there is no perfect form of government, especially with an uninformed populace
<Pap>
Duncan: I agree with you
<Agathorn>
"Uninformed Populace" is the key
<Agathorn>
And I've been saying for years now it was going this way
<Pap>
The populace needs to be informed and the majority do not care
<Duncan>
The uninformed nature of the populace is also influenced by the government
<Agathorn>
people don't give a crap aymore and this - the current state of the world 0 is the result
<stratochief>
best informed in history. also possibly the most misinformation also flying around
<Duncan>
the US seems to be in a downward spiral with privatised media and partially privatised education
<Pap>
Duncan: yes it is, but the problem is with the media outlets
<Duncan>
and the education system
<Agathorn>
you'd rather the government control the media so people ike Trump could do whatever they want and not be caught?
<Duncan>
and the problem with the media outlets has a lot to do with deregulation
<Pap>
They know that they need to sell ads and they sensationlize the issues in order to attract viewers
<Agathorn>
I'm sorry but the proble lies firmyl at the feet of the common idiot
<Agathorn>
nowehere else
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: government controls media more han you think ;p
<Duncan>
"you'd rather the government control the media" - government control and private for profit business control are not the only two options
<Agathorn>
xShadowx: you are such a conspiracy nut :p
<Pap>
Agathorn: I agree with you, but wasn't there a time when the media had a sense of responsibility to provide just the news without comment and without partisanism or opinion?
<Duncan>
and wrong too, the media controls the government
<Duncan>
yes, and the main regulation that broke that trend was the one that prevented the ownership of multiple media sources
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: nah not a conspiracy, just the fact they control what they release, rather than an open door policy on information, alone influences things
<stratochief>
In capitalism, man exploits his common man. You see, communism is superior because there it is the other way around :P
<Duncan>
I mean it broke that trend when it was repealed/weakened
<Duncan>
lol
<xShadowx>
Pap: now media reports what gets ratings ;p
<Duncan>
but in all seriousness, it bugs me when people bring up communism in discussions about regulation of industry and business
<Pap>
I know xShadowx and that is the biggest problem with what is going on in our country right now
<Duncan>
Adam Smith said that regulation was necessary in a capitalist economy to prevent monopolies
<Duncan>
ratings is one half of the issue, news should not be allowed to advertise then ratings would be less important. The other half is that they are not held to account for lying
<Duncan>
30 years ago if a news outlet was found to have deliberately mislead the public, they would have gone out of business from the loss of trust
<stratochief>
the public (used to) own the air waves. now, media travels via privatey owned coaxial or satellite signal
<Pap>
The Newsroom was very informative on this subject Duncan
<Duncan>
I love that show
<Duncan>
one of my favourites
<xShadowx>
<insert Inquisitor jokk here>
<xShadowx>
s/jokk/joke
<Qboid>
xShadowx meant to say: <insert Inquisitor joke here>
<Duncan>
xShadowx: don't let people use 'conspiracy theory' as a counter argument to things you say
<Duncan>
it is totally invalid
<Duncan>
it is like saying "that is a biology theory" as though that counters something someone says
<stratochief>
if someone accuses something you said of sounding like a conspiracy theory, the idea probably wasn't sufficiently explained or backed with evidence/information in the context of that conversation
<stratochief>
it is a knee-jerk/fun troll-y way of asking you to explain/justify the position better
<Duncan>
generally it means they find it unlikely or far fetched
<Duncan>
I know that that is what was meant here among friends, I just wanted to make a general point
<Duncan>
I do meet people who actually seem to imply that there are no conspiracies in the world
<Duncan>
which is a pretty wild thing to think
<Agathorn>
Pap: "I agree with you, but wasn't there a time when the media had a sense of responsibility to provide just the news without comment and without partisanism or opinion?" Yes I agree media has gone to shit
<xShadowx>
conspiracies exist, some even exist to hide other conspiracies
<Agathorn>
but that doesn't change the fact that an individual shouldn't be smart enough to be able to determine the truth
<stratochief>
Agathorn: to me, an outsider, the BC provicial election appeared to be backlash against the sitting (liberal) government on their position to allow oil to be piped from alberta to be shipped off the coast
<Agathorn>
the problem is far too many people simply beleive whatever slanted crap they see without even attempting to get the full story by checking multiple media outlets
<Duncan>
Intelligence/Lack of education/Being misinformed these are all things that have definite environmental causes
<Agathorn>
stratochief: yeah the oild issue here is pretty big in the media
<Duncan>
things like heavy metal pollution, poverty, ineffective education and media being top of the list
<Agathorn>
not sure of the citizen views, but the media views are unhappy with it
<Pap>
I agree Agathorn, to me, the root of all of the issues is the education system. Most people do not learn / are not encouraged to ask why, or actually learn how to learn on their own. It is a system where people are told things and then asked to regurgitate that on an exam
<Duncan>
all of those are partially caused by bad governments
<Duncan>
so it is possible to enter a feedback loop where the population and the government get worse together
<xShadowx>
but the 1%ers get top edumacation and they're the ones who get to positions of power / government in the country ;p
<Duncan>
dont forget though that they are not doing it wrong and making mistakes
<Duncan>
they are staying at the top, getting even richer
<Duncan>
their education is obviously working alright
<Pap>
Duncan: social media also creates a feedback loop. You follow the people with similar views, they like what you have to say and everyone agrees. That is one of the reasons I like this group as it is a large divergence of types of people and beliefs and can have arguments that are constructive and informative
<Duncan>
its their morals that seem to be lacking
<Duncan>
I also love the bay12games community
<Duncan>
for similar reasons to the kerbal community it is a really interesting mix of people
<Duncan>
I dont use social media
<Duncan>
although I have been checking out akasha recently
<Duncan>
might be worth doing that for a while
<Pap>
Are you American Duncan?
<Duncan>
nope
<Duncan>
why do you ask?
<Pap>
Just curious if your thoughts were from outside the country or inside
<Duncan>
I am from New Zealand, living in Germany
<Duncan>
hence the British spelling
<Pap>
Gotcha
<Duncan>
to the earlier point about working democracies - both the media systems and the governments of both NZ and DE seem to be moving in the same direction as the US
<Duncan>
so the trump issue is not only a US issue, you guys are just the frontrunners
<Pap>
So what is it about the world that has caused all of these recent developments?
<xShadowx>
Duncan: i miss an old MMORTS i played, the game was complex enough that 'simple people' didn't stick around, chat always full of science and space talks, no rules and yet always civil not a cesspool :) ofc community openly wiping your bases if you talked shit help keep it civil a tad too ahah
* stratochief
mumble about capital concentration leading to all problems
<Duncan>
interesting
<Duncan>
I am a hobbyist game dev and the way a game can define its community is very interesting to me
<stratochief>
also, segmentation of media (including social) makes people easier to divide, propagandize, conquer
<Duncan>
also stratochief, dont mumble it is a very valid point
<Duncan>
yes, the segmentation of society on all levels especially in the media
<Duncan>
but even on a basic friends and neighbours level
<Pap>
stratochief: someone like Elon Musk talking about how robotics will require a standardized income for all. Why would he think/say that if it is obviously not in his favor? <--- asking, I don't know
<stratochief>
even rich people are allowed to wax Utopian aload :P
* xShadowx
wants a robotic maid to clean his room
<Duncan>
Pap it is also 100% true
<stratochief>
mechanization of more jobs could lead to a Utopia (more capital per person, less work per person) or Dystopia (more people working hard for less money, more capital concentrated in fewer hands). Musk himself won't determine that outcome, our capital and political system will
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<Pap>
I think so as well
<Duncan>
the more jobs that are automated the less work there will be for people
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<Duncan>
if we continue with a system where you have to work to survive there will be mass unrest as employment rises
<Pap>
So is Free Trade good or bad? And could it ever truly exist?
<Duncan>
this is also coming sooner rather than later
<Duncan>
with self driving cars. The percent of the workforce that drive vehicles is double digits in most developed countries
<stratochief>
Pap: can't exist in current system, not without international rule of law to level the playing field amongst nations. currently there is a race to the bottom on labour treatment and environmental pollution externalization
<Duncan>
so we are looking at mass unemployment as soon as self driving vehicles become widespread
<xShadowx>
what people miss with free trade, is not everyone has the tech, intel would stomp out amd and nobody has the cpu tech to compete with intel ;p
<Duncan>
free trade is a really general term that means different things depending who is saying it
<stratochief>
(which, by the way, I'm currently writing about International Rule of Law for a volunteer project on Global Challenges)
<stratochief>
mass unemployment means more need for welfare programs, to re-train people for new jobs. Minimum income is certainly one route to do that
<xShadowx>
just get that tropical island, train monkey butlers, live life with pretty waterfalls, tree houses, and uh....ok i'm too bored of that idea to finish it :|
<stratochief>
I neither have the capital or capital ships to acquire a tropical island. and I prefer to hire human butlers, to stimulate the human economy :)
<Pap>
stratochief: how do you convince people, especially since tribalism rules so much of people's thoughts and actions, that they should do "what is right" for the common man?
<Pap>
Sorry, tribalism is the wrong word, tribal instinct
<stratochief>
Pap: for me, demonstrate through historical examples and statistics when mandating "doing what is right" as law led to improvement in the human condition
<stratochief>
including, and especially the human condition for you and yours, if that is all that someone cares about
<xShadowx>
Pap: i read that as tribbleism and thought of tribbles from star trek and mind went downhill from there :| lolz
<Pap>
ok, so what can I do, I am an intelligent person that is upper-middle class and is uneducated in any specific discipline?
* xShadowx
wants a pet tribble
<Pap>
lol xShadowx
<xShadowx>
listen to your local media and corporations, they'll tell you what you should do ;3
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<Pap>
excellent news, thank you xShadowx
<xShadowx>
:D
<Pap>
<----continues mindless droning
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<stratochief>
Pap: depends on what changes you personally think are the most important for the world, now and in the future. a good place to read about charitable giving for global good: https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/#we-are-giving-what-we-can
<Duncan>
pap I have something to add about convincing people
<Duncan>
there have been psychological studies with some counter-intuitive results
<stratochief>
my friend said it reads a bit academic, but I really enjoyed it
<Duncan>
so if you think for example that privatising schools is a bad idea, and someone else thinks it is a good idea, they will make a statement like 'privatising schools leads to greater competition and therefore performance'
<stratochief>
the later chapters are more academic and economic, but I enjoy simple presentations of pyschology experiments and their results
<Duncan>
you can say "tell me in detail how privatisation leads to competition, and how competition improves performance"
<Duncan>
make sure they explain it in as much detail as they are able
<Duncan>
this leads people to realise that there are a lot of gaps in their understanding
<Duncan>
and opens them up to opposing ideas
<Pap>
That is a very intelligent thing Duncan
<Duncan>
I got it from a podcast called stuff to blow your mind
<Duncan>
they do some great shows
<stratochief>
Duncan: you've got to 'rubber duck debug' your own beliefs the same way as well, eh?
<Duncan>
if you can yes
<Duncan>
I use other humans as rubber ducks generally
<leudaimon>
I got the conversation in the middle, but the point raised by Duncan is actually not something new. Socratic dialetics is very similar to that...
<Qboid>
leudaimon: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [05.06.2017 03:12:12]: "RCS tech levels are only free up to TL2. After that there are unlock costs"
<Duncan>
leudaimon good point
<stratochief>
eh, when I try to rubber duck off of people, I just demonstrate that I'm a better arguer and more patient than the average person. in text, I generally just learn that text is a terrible and slow method to communicate :P
<leudaimon>
that's quite interesting that this kind of thing is constantly rediscovered
<stratochief>
leudaimon: demonstrating that the classics are still worth learning :)
<Duncan>
sceince does a lot of rediscovering ancient knowledge
<stratochief>
lets replace standardized tests with Socrates
<Duncan>
stratochief: have you actually tried rubber ducking your political beliefs with an inanimate object?
<stratochief>
Duncan: sure, a computer :)
<Duncan>
it actually never occurred to me but I think it could be interesting
<leudaimon>
soundnfury, didn't remember that higher tech had unlock costs... it is quite some time since I last got into tech 3 or higher
<stratochief>
I define both perspectives/postions as best I can in point form, highlighting their strengths, weaknesses, assumptions
<stratochief>
just switch sides, to some extent, like a debate club/class
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<Duncan>
sounds good
<Agathorn>
2 minutes before keynote starts and people still filing into the theater
<Agathorn>
That annoys me
<rsparkyc>
how far back in the scroll back do i need to go before i get the context of what's going on here?
<Agathorn>
Am I the only person who shows up for events early?
<Agathorn>
Early is on time, and on time is late!
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: about an hour and 15 min, from there it was all downhill into socio-political-economics :P
<stratochief>
Agathorn: I feel the same way, but I choose to enjoy the quiet time between when I arrive 'on time/early' and when others arrive 'late/on time'
<rsparkyc>
afreed
<stratochief>
although reserved seat movie theatre tickets are a revelation. I no longer have to arrive an hour early
<Agathorn>
Also for live events like this IMHO its just freaking rude
<rsparkyc>
for real
<Agathorn>
it is you saying that you and your time is more important than the the presenters/other people in the audience
<Agathorn>
self centered attitude that is depresginly common today
<stratochief>
Agathorn: were they coming from elsewhere? or possibly politely conversing amongst themselves outside the auditorium, instead of noise-ing up your quiet space?
<Agathorn>
hardly a quiet space
<stratochief>
well, in cities quiet is a relative term. quieter than when the room was full of human meat
* stratochief
is 'that guy' you know who refers to reality as meat space
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<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: what is this reality you speak of
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: the interface through which your mind reaches Dwarf Fortress
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<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: what makes you think I am not an egg in a game of Dwarf Fortress
<rsparkyc>
hey lamont, any chance you got to put together another principia build?
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: the pictures from your desk? otherwise, I'd be leaning towards the DF-egg
<lamont>
no i forgot last night and got work this AM
<rsparkyc>
no rush, just curious, thanks!
<rsparkyc>
i'll just continue to bug you till i get one :)
<rsparkyc>
you could always upgrade osx, make your compilation steps work there, document it, and then i could do it :)
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, soundnfury, Pap, NathanKell|AWAY I'm writing up my experience in RIS, and I have some screenshots. Where do you think I could post it for you guys and whoever is interested?
<stratochief>
leudaimon: somewhere on the KSP forum, possibly this sub-section?
<stratochief>
I'm not terribly familiar with the forum, there may be a better subsection
<rsparkyc>
you could always share a google doc
<leudaimon>
I actually thought about that rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
ahh, yeah, the forum is good too
<rsparkyc>
forum is prob the best, i forgot they had a mission reports section
<leudaimon>
image sharing in the forums is more complicated, but I'll probably try that, given it will be more permanent and acessible
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<stratochief>
leudaimon: yeah, don't stress about getting embedded images/albums to work "just right", or at least at first. I'm always happy to click through a hyperlink to get to a picture or album
<leudaimon>
yeah, I'll start with the text and uploading each mission in a imgur album
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<Agathorn>
I think Apple's marketing team is starting to lose it.. macOS High Sierra? Seriously?
<Agathorn>
even as a fan I have trouble accepting that :(
* UmbralRaptor
misses the felidae/panthera naming scheme.
<Agathorn>
and they're still pushing Mail.. like anyone actually uses anything but a web based email client today?
* UmbralRaptor
uses Thunderbird a fair amount lately.
<UmbralRaptor>
Also, a mix of k-9 and gmail apps on my fake computer^W^Wphone
<Starwaster>
and now... Barely Kerman
<Agathorn>
really? Interesting
<Agathorn>
I can't imagien not using gmail or another web based app
<Agathorn>
downloading my email to my actual computer seems so 1990s
<Agathorn>
Are there advatnages to doing so?
<stratochief>
workplaces generally still do it, don't they? I imagine a number of work email tools also rely in it being that way
<stratochief>
at least, all the offices I've worked in did it that way. so, personal experience, not stats
<Agathorn>
nah even at work we use outlook web
<Agathorn>
and this is in a company that doesn't even have internet access :D
<Agathorn>
just intranet
<Starwaster>
why is it so unusual to download email to your computer? I'm in front of mine right now and if I want to read my email I can either pull my phone out of my pocket, log in and read... or I can alt-tab to Chrome and read it right now
<Agathorn>
but you aren't downloading it
<Agathorn>
if you are looking at it in Chrome then thats a web based email client
<Agathorn>
so maybe i'm not communicating properly
<stratochief>
opps, sorry Olympic1. I meant CobaltWolf
<CobaltWolf>
in vanilla KSP it's 0.125m diameter haha
<CobaltWolf>
it's going to have, like, 1 EC
<stratochief>
shouldn't it have enough battery to survive 45 minutes in the dark?
<stratochief>
or, what is the orbital period of Kerbin?
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<UmbralRaptor>
Orbital period at LKO is ~1800 seconds
<CobaltWolf>
I mean, it'll have like 1 EC, and the power costs for it will be less than the number of sig figs that KSP will display :P
<UmbralRaptor>
Agathorn: it's helpful for searching and grabbing attachments. Especially since Thunderbird in offline mode > Outlook Web Access
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<leudaimon>
damn, the forum ate my post
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<egg|zzz|egg>
omnomnomnom
<stratochief>
leudaimon: didn't save a draft, or just post a basic version, then edit?
<stratochief>
:(
<Duncan>
is there a way to know when a failure was caused by testflight?
<Pap>
Duncan: There is a windo you can open and it will show you the Test Flight engines
<Pap>
There is also an option to have them displayed when it happens
<Agathorn>
many ways
<Agathorn>
flight log , TF MSD, TF Hud, Engine Icons will also be colored yellow or red for minor or major failures
<Duncan>
ok thanks
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<pack7df>
hello
<CobaltWolf>
o/
<stratochief>
o/ pack7df
<pack7df>
i'm just hear because i'm tired to wait of RO for new ksp
<pack7df>
and maybe
<pack7df>
i could help
<leudaimon>
stratochief: had a first draft of the text in a local doc, but the list of figures I was going to upload and use was only in the forum... I'm getting it done again
<pack7df>
in a humbling way
<stratochief>
pack7df: 'new KSP?' we did release RO for 1.2 recently, right around the time that KSP 1.3 came out. so, RO 1.2 is 'new' to us :P
<pack7df>
yes.
<pack7df>
i have read that RO is in a kind of beta
<pack7df>
for KSO 1.2
<Pap>
ro IS NOT
<Pap>
RO is not
<Pap>
RP-0, the career part of it, is
<stratochief>
cAPITALIZATION fAIL
<Pap>
^truth
<blowfish>
pack7df: RO has a full release for KSP 1.2.2. RP-0 doesn't yet
<Pap>
I work a lot in all caps for work
<pack7df>
ahhh
<stratochief>
Pap: DO YOU KNOW ANY GOOD FORTRAN JOKES?
<Pap>
Cannot say I have ever heard of it
<pack7df>
dows it work well for ksp 1.2 also?
<stratochief>
Rp-0 isn't terribly hard to get working for KSP 1.2.2, and might even have a release this week if NK gets around to it
<gazpachian>
stratochief: 10 NO ONE HAS A BASIC SENSE OF HUMOR AROUND HERE
<pack7df>
however...
<pack7df>
i'm software engineer
<stratochief>
gazpachian: 20 MY SENSE OF HUMOUR IS COMMODOREBASIC
<pack7df>
maybe in the future i could contribute
<pack7df>
i like a lot this game.
<stratochief>
pack7df: cool! software engineering assistance is appreciated for RO/RP-0 and related mods :)
<gazpachian>
pack7df: check out the issue tracker on github, there's always a ton of stuff to be done!
<pack7df>
and the falvor of realism you give it i like a lot too.
<Pap>
pack7df: there iis a lot of stuff that can be contributed
<pack7df>
it's in .net mostly rigth?
<stratochief>
pack7df: most KSP mods are written in C#, and the source code is always available through Github
<pack7df>
yes i have ckecked it.
<stratochief>
pack7df: are you looking to play RO or RP-0 in KSP 1.2 ?
<pack7df>
RO is enough
<Pap>
pack7df: there is also a lot of work to do that does not require coding skills
<pack7df>
however RP-0 is better that other trees and missions packs.
<stratochief>
pack7df: in that case, that can even be installed using CKAN, which is the mod manager/installer for KSP
<pack7df>
in my opinion
<stratochief>
I'd suggest you make a copy of KSP 1.2, seperate from steam, them get a working RSS/RO install, test it, then and only then look at adding RP-0
<pack7df>
ok.
<pack7df>
by the way... i have found a lot of links and forums for RO...
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<pack7df>
and there is a bit of confussion
<stratochief>
pack7df: how so?
<pack7df>
waht is the link for download RO for KSP 1.2?
<stratochief>
pack7df: well, RO relies on a number of other mods already being installed to work
<pack7df>
yes
<pack7df>
i know
<stratochief>
which CKAN helps you get, ensuring you have the right version
<memesinspace>
why is it suggested to have deadly re-entry
<stratochief>
memesinspace: DRE does things differently than stock does, similarly to how stock also has air resistence, but FAR changes it.
<leudaimon>
I'll add the following missions soon
<stratochief>
DRE also contains the parts/configs for some heatshields, which are required for RP-0
<memesinspace>
well yeah far has more Realistic™ aerodynamics, but how do you make re-entry more Realistic™
<stratochief>
memesinspace: with DRE :P
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<memesinspace>
stratochief: but you go too fast in the atmosphere, you get hot. its not that hard
<stratochief>
leudaimon: nice :)
<memesinspace>
afaik
<Pap>
LOL: I was Agathorned in this first flight, but fortunately all I needed was to get above the ground, so everything was OK.
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<stratochief>
memesinspace: I'll keep in mind that you think making games/mods that simulate thermodynamics isn't that hard. we'll agree to disagree :)
<leudaimon>
Pap: I even managed to get high enough to be able to transmit some science
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<Pap>
leudaimon: I just like the use of the verb Agathorned
<memesinspace>
k.
<leudaimon>
:)
<memesinspace>
i just realized this mod makes Reaction Wheels™ not as good. now ssmes are required to turn a rocket :D
<stratochief>
memesinspace: you mean RCS? reaction control systems?
<stratochief>
now necessary for both translation and rotation in space
<gazpachian>
memesinspace: most engines have a lot more gimbal than you'd see in stock anyways
<gazpachian>
so turning a rocket while engines are firing shouldn't be a problem
<stratochief>
indeed. the lack of reaction wheels makes rendesvous and docking a lot harder in reality
<memesinspace>
ik but then you run out of monopropellant and you need infinite fuel ch- er... refueling missions...
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<Pap>
Nah memesinspace, it just takes more planning
<memesinspace>
yeah. if there's one thing I suck at: planning. that's why I've only gone to duna once. and I needed two rescue capsules to get the kerbals (not important) and the Science™ (important) back
<blowfish>
memesinspace: running out of maneuvering fuel is something that happens to real spacecraft
<memesinspace>
blowfish: and then they're screwed? or do they just have to use Engine Gimbals™ to turn
<blowfish>
they have enough RCS fuel for their intended useful life
<memesinspace>
oh. voyager doesn't have any rcs prob
<blowfish>
it does
<memesinspace>
*voyagers
<blowfish>
and it'll run out at some point
<memesinspace>
why? it's not turning
<blowfish>
maintaining orientation takes a bit
<stratochief>
emitted heat induces rotation and tranlation
<memesinspace>
doesn't rcs fuel not evaporate? cus I know hydrogen evaporates and becomes useless
<blowfish>
RCS fuels are generally infinitely storable, yes
<memesinspace>
also why does it need to maintain orientation? it's not being used anymore
<blowfish>
dish is still pointed at earth I think
<stratochief>
when it sends/sent back info to Earth, it needed to orient the dish for transmission, yeah
<memesinspace>
oh.
<memesinspace>
then we invented multidirectional antennas
<stratochief>
that communicate over 10 light hours out? low transmission rate for the power consumption to just throw signal in all directions
<memesinspace>
ooooooops that's right it's like forever away... rip
<memesinspace>
so eventually it will become space junk.
<Pap>
memesinspace: it will travel on its current course for millenia
<stratochief>
space junk isn't a binary state. as a probe like that gets older and further away, some experiments break, or can't be powered anymore, or it can't even transmit anymore due to distance or power
<blowfish>
memesinspace: as another example, Cassini is going to be aimed to crash into Saturn before it runs out of maneuvering fuel. This is to prevent it from potentially contaminating one of Saturn's moons with biological material from earth
<blowfish>
memesinspace: Scott Manley has a pretty good explanation of what "reaction wheels" are in real life and what they are used for: https://youtu.be/7Js5x4NhUxU
<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: successful space landmine in orbit, ready to stop our space-enemies from space-piracy
<CobaltWolf>
stratochief: I'm sure my players are glad that I've added this exceedingly useful part to the game
<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: imagine someone attaching like 500 of those to a launcher, then flooding LKO with space-mines :)
<blowfish>
especially stock players ... who needs early probes when you can get a Kerbal to orbit on your first real launch?
<CobaltWolf>
I usually wind up getting munar flybys around the time I do suborbital kerbal'd missions
<CobaltWolf>
but I usually use a tech tree mod that pushes the manned pods back
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<CobaltWolf>
in any case, one of my friends modeled it because they were learning 3D software. Even unwrapped it. Took maybe 15 minutes to texture, and it used space leftover on Explorer1/Pioneer1/Pioneer4's texture sheet
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<stratochief>
CobaltWolf: well, that looks like a pretty solid first creation for them :)
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<CobaltWolf>
stratochief: yeah cept it was in Wings3D so now he has to unlearn all of it :P
<memesinspace>
blowfish: why does it matter if material gets on saturn's moons? also just have a low orbit so it doesn't run into anything
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<CobaltWolf>
memesinspace: no orbit lasts forever
<CobaltWolf>
and we don't want to contaminate other planets with possible earth life before we're ready. It's just responsible/foreward thinking. They do a lot of really crazy stuff to sterilize interplanetary spacecraft.
<Pap>
memesinspace: we do not know if there is life on any of the moons of Saturn, we do not want any bacteria that may have survived on Galileo to then show up on one of the moons
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<pack7df_>
does kraken problems remains on ksp 1.2?
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<rsparkyc>
who broke github?
<pack7df_>
There is a way for RO for avoid pack/unpack problems?
<lamont>
kraken ate github
<blowfish>
memesinspace: orbit is not guaranteed - moons push and pull, orbit will change shape over time
<memesinspace>
pap: ok
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<CobaltWolf>
lol
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<leudaimon>
Pap, made another post, crewed suborbital and big sounding rockets. The next one will be for my orbital vehicle... and then some happy failures trying to impact the moon
<Bornholio>
Can anyone aim me at a decent guide on modding RO configs. I've dropped the ball figuring out how to put both hybrid and other configs on the same file. Also is there a trick to scaling inside the RO config?
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<Pap>
Bornholio: there isn't really a guide to it. The best bet is to look at a modified config for a part that is very similar to what you are configuring
<Pap>
You can ask me any specific questions you might have
<Bornholio>
Well first would be can you change scale in a config, the couple of attempts i made didn't seem to function.
<Pap>
There are two ways 1) more difficult, but the more traditional way is to change the scale of the model, you can get the information by opening the model in a program like blender
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<Pap>
Then you set the scale of the model inside of the MODEL { } node in the X, Y, Z axis
<Pap>
The other way, is to use rescaleFactor
<Pap>
If you choose the first option, you need to also manually set where the nodes are to attach, using rescaleFactor does that for you automatically
<Pap>
The biggest drawback of rescaleFactor is taht you cannot scale parts in all 3 dimensions individually. One scale sets all of the dimensions to scale
<Bornholio>
Can you think of example inside the RO configs that uses rescaleFactor?
<Pap>
There are a lot of them, what kind of part are you configuring?
<Bornholio>
BNTR/NERVA/NERVAII My search didn't return any scale changes inside Engine configs, are they managed elsewhere, did think that some must be scaled by RO.
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<Bornholio>
OK i see the SXT for Nerva II & BNTR inside RO_SXT_engines.cfg using a @rescaleFactor = 1.0 and a @MODEL scale module for the BNTR, can those be used inside an engine config module?
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<Pap>
The scale changes are made in the actual part adjusment files themselves, they are not in th eEngine Configs
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<Bornholio>
ok so nothing simple like massMultiple=x, meaning i'd have to make another engineType and have it show up seperately in VAB?
<Pap>
You do not need to edit the mass, the mass will be set inside of the Engine Config
<Pap>
just the scale of the model need to be set in an individual files
<Bornholio>
So the best structure is make stocklike part config, then Mod config, then RO Engines config? As if i was making my own modded part just borrowing the models?
<memesinspace>
procedural parts was built to run on 2.2.1. never heard of it :/
<Pap>
Kerbal Engineer does not give accurate values in RO
<memesinspace>
ah.
<memesinspace>
maybe somebody could make a mechjeb type mod without the cheat functions, and have it display the accurate values
<leudaimon>
talking about mechjeb... is it normal that disabling the ascent autopilot shuts the engine down? I hate this behaviour so much
<Pap>
leudaimon: you need to have the WIP RO Special handling box checked in the setting
<leudaimon>
oh
<leudaimon>
so simple? lol
<memesinspace>
oh wait that's right ro has the mod that you can't reignite engines. rip my hopes and dreams
<leudaimon>
I usually try to find ways to tweak my final trajectory without disabling it, and specially when trying to correct inclination it's a nightmare
<Pap>
leudaimon: I still don't trust it, so I let it control my first stage then shut off ascent guidance before I fire my second stage engine
<memesinspace>
so ker is fake news in ro right?
<leudaimon>
it works very well in general, especially once you learn to tweak final flight angle to control apoapsis
<leudaimon>
yep memesinspace
<leudaimon>
but there are times I disable it in the wrong time and lose the launch
<memesinspace>
oooo ok. trying to figure out what to do first... fasa is derping out and the decoupler isn't working
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<memesinspace>
the attachment points won't connect
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<Duncan>
what are the most common reasons taht my rcs wouldnt work early game? I have fuel, they are enabled and I have avionics and communication
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<stratochief>
did I miss anything interesting?
<stratochief>
pacck7df PM'd me, asked if I could download and email him every single mod required for RO.. k thanks lol nope.
<stratochief>
Duncan: you sure, enabled? they are staged/stage-able, IIRC. possible not the right RCS prop/fuel for the jets. the RCS units get setup like engines, where you select the fuel mix for them
<stratochief>
or, no crossfeed between RCS fuel tankage and RCS jets
<Duncan>
yeah I am staging them before I try to use them
<Duncan>
hmm
<Duncan>
so the tanks are showing as having nitrogen rcs attached
<Duncan>
but the fuel list on the rcs unit doesnt seem to list nitrogen
<stratochief>
that might be because it is the default? select something else, then go back?
<Duncan>
is that a bug with the fuel mod? It is the starting rcs
<stratochief>
some fuels can only be in certain tank types
<Duncan>
no selecting htp and emptying still results in nitrogen shown by default
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<soundnfury>
Pap: KER does give accurate values, except when you have crew aboard (in which case it screws up royally, adding 100kg per kerbal to _every_ part in the vessel)
<Duncan>
another question, in career mode I am faced with launching about 70 sounding rocket missions before I can upgrade the launchpad enough to launch a bigger rocket for satellites. Am I missing something or doing something wrong? It seems unnecessarily tedious.
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<soundnfury>
Duncan: it should be possible to launch to orbit from the 40t pad
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<soundnfury>
though you probably want to unlock at least some techs, it's possible but difficult to reach orbit with only the starting parts
<Duncan>
a basic thor-able setup is 56 tons
<Duncan>
it is possible but only if I just copy the guide exactly
<Duncan>
I am not clever enough to come up with any alternative design
<Duncan>
I am going to drop the difficulty to normal and restart, that should at least make the tedium a bit less
<stratochief>
shrink a smidge to get below 40 tonnes, *shrug*
<soundnfury>
Duncan: short thor + able + xasr-1. Or short thor + able + baby sergeants. Or Juno (Redstone) + baby sergeants. Or Vanguard + able + baby sergeants.
<stratochief>
thor able wasn't the first rocket design to get to orbit, either. you could look at other designs
<soundnfury>
There's loads of combinations.
<stratochief>
^ yep, like that. that gets a dinky payload to orbit. Juno-style
<stratochief>
the 40T pad is intended to let you get to orbit with a dinky payload, to complete the very first orbital contract, if you're playing on hard-ish
<stratochief>
or, you can take an easier difficulty, which should leave you enough money to get the heavier pad, do it with the next limit (which might be high enough to support R-7 designs?)
<blowfish>
not sure what the next pad limit is, but R-7 is like 267t
<soundnfury>
blowfish: level 2 pad is 800t
<soundnfury>
Saturn I class
<stratochief>
yeah, so a Saturn I class pad should be able to place a first satellite in orbit
<stratochief>
not quite enough to place a medium battle tank into orbit though
<Pap>
stratochief: should docking ports be available before the Era of Advanced Capsules?
<stratochief>
Pap: there are/can be 3 or 4 classes of docking port. first, just physical docking, like Gemini-Agena, then liquid/resource passage docking, then human passable, then possibly something like the universal non-gendered port.
<stratochief>
basically, ports can keep getting more complicated over time. I'm not sure what the advance is in non-gendered ports. I'm not sure what the first non-gendered port was, actually
<Pap>
Yes, that makes sense, should that first physical docking piece come available with the first set of capsules, or should it require the second set of more advanced ones (ie Gemini era)?
<Pap>
First non-gendered, would it have been for ASTP? The APAS-79?
<stratochief>
docking ports might be a seperate tech from capsules. I'm not sure what they fit best in
<stratochief>
I mean, what does a human supporting capsule have to do with docking ports, right?
<stratochief>
maybe docking ports should be the first proto-tech prior to stations?
<Pap>
No, I agree, they will be separate nodes, but what I am asking is timeframe in the tree
<Agathorn>
Doesn't want to cheat; complains that engines have limited ignitions :D
<stratochief>
gotcha. yeah, around the time of Gemini
<stratochief>
Agathorn: lol, I clearly missed that
<Agathorn>
maybe more obvious in scrollback
<Agathorn>
gave me a chuckle though
<Agathorn>
people find MJ cheating, yet don't think twice about how cheaty stock is
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<Pap>
Agathorn: it is cheating to know the Delta-v of your vehicle. Cheater
<Agathorn>
Do the math
<Agathorn>
how is that not built into stock by now
<Pap>
It'll be a micro-DLC released within the next 3 months
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: it's having your vehicle flown by an autopilot someone else wrote that people find cheaty
<Agathorn>
yeah I know but i don't agree
<Agathorn>
depends on what you want out of it really
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: you don't have to agree. But don't mischaracterise their position. Although actually it's Pap who did that, so sorry.
<Agathorn>
If what you get out of KSP is the flying, then yeah I can see you considering it being a cheat
<Agathorn>
but if what you get out of KSP is building, or designing, or tycooning, then I don't
<Pap>
I was holding the position of some other people that have spoken out about it
<Agathorn>
Then there are the pople who think just because MJ has autopilot features that they have to use them
<Agathorn>
I think what Pap is referring to are the people who say MJ is cheating imsply because it has those features, even though you might use it only for the stats
<Pap>
Some people find it cheating to use any parts mods, some find it cheating to clip parts, I just think that everyone can play how they want, unless they are in some type of competition and have established rules that are broken
<Agathorn>
Like i said I think it comes down to what you want to get out of it
<Agathorn>
Personally I played KSP like a tycooner and mission designer, so things like MJ let the game take care of aspects I don't want to bother with
<soundnfury>
I mean, MJ is present in my install, because it's how Telemachus drives SAS (prograde hold etc.)
<soundnfury>
but I never use it for anything.
<soundnfury>
Even the Δv stats I get from KER because I prefer the interface
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: I find that I enjoy the building, flying and tycooning parts about equally
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: I prefer KER but I thought its stats were wrong in RO
<soundnfury>
Agathorn: they're fine as far as I can tell
<Agathorn>
huh
<soundnfury>
except when you have a crew on board
<Agathorn>
last time I looked, I had both running and the values were very different
<soundnfury>
(it adds the crew mass to every part, rather than just the capsule)
<soundnfury>
well, KER's number agree with konrad's
<Agathorn>
and you woudn't be biased :)
<Pap>
lol
<soundnfury>
I'm just saying, if there _are_ bugs then they're present in two independently-developed pieces of software in different languages
<Agathorn>
I guess I just can't get over the fact that "The Greats" here all say MJ's numbers are correct
<Agathorn>
and given KER gives *different* numbers, I have to therefore conclude its numbers are incorrect
<Agathorn>
but I honestly can't say one way or the other which is correct
<soundnfury>
well, next time I'm in KSP I'
<soundnfury>
ll look at MJ's numbers and see if they really are *different* still
<soundnfury>
it could just be years-old folklore that's entered into received wisdom
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<soundnfury>
o/ rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
\o
<Pap>
soundnfury: that sounds like it might be possible
<Agathorn>
soundnfury: could very well be!
<Pap>
soundnfury: did I screw up by deleting my old RtS folder before copying over the updated one?
<soundnfury>
Pap: no, that should be fine
<Pap>
ok
<soundnfury>
game state is all in your save file (ScenarioRIS)
<Pap>
soundnfury: I think the latest one you linked was missing the Plugins folder
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<soundnfury>
really? *checks*
<Pap>
<---- could be completely wrong
<soundnfury>
ksp_ris.0.1.2.zip yes? Definitely has a DLL
<soundnfury>
Oh but if you downloaded the source tarball from github that won't have it :/
<CobaltWolf>
and I got two rounds of shots with my senior project team
<CobaltWolf>
in like an hour
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<memesinspace>
for some reason my engine likes taking its sweet time to ignite
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<HypergolicSkunk>
memesinspace: welcome to realism ;)
<Agathorn>
wel yeah - do you think an engine goes from dead cold to fukl thrust instantly? :)
<Agathorn>
You'll note in a reallaunch how main engine start is usually a couple seconds or so from t-0, that is to give the engines time to ignite and spool up to full thrust and the computers to verify such before release
<memesinspace>
shouldn
<memesinspace>
shouldn't take too long tho
<Agathorn>
With TestFlight ignition about 5 seconds before liftoff is recommended
<memesinspace>
you light the fuel on fire, boom you've got thrust. the reaction might take like a second to happen, but not like 5 secs
<Agathorn>
err no
<Bornholio>
The long power on adds realism except to mechjeb, that doesn't know its in a real program and fails to light early to compensate.
<Agathorn>
yeah MJ has lots of issues with more than just that
<memesinspace>
oh dang i just realized reaction wheels don't work
<memesinspace>
well i can't turn to get into orbit :/
<HypergolicSkunk>
I'm enjoying this
<Agathorn>
memesinspace: think about it for a moment.. you hit the button to fire off your engine. What happens? Well the pumps turn on, start drawing fuel and ox from the tanks through the piping and into the reaction chamber, where they can then be ignited to produce thrust
<memesinspace>
yeah as a noob i prob shouldn't be playing ro, but i did anyways
<Agathorn>
All of that takes more than 0 time
<Agathorn>
memesinspace: turn with thrust
<memesinspace>
agathorn: or, here's an idea for nasa; light the fuel on fire, comes out the engine, 3rd law
<memesinspace>
yeah except that mercury retropacks don't have gimbal
<Agathorn>
where does the fuel come from?
<memesinspace>
the tank
<Agathorn>
how does it get to the engine?
<memesinspace>
i think i know this one
<memesinspace>
gravity
<Agathorn>
wrong
<memesinspace>
uh.. gravity pulls things down, iirc
<memesinspace>
a-duh
<Agathorn>
it gets there by being pumped in - otherwise it woudlnt' work to well in space
<memesinspace>
agathorn: EXACTLY
<memesinspace>
you can't ignite in space
<Agathorn>
sure you can
<Agathorn>
we do it all the time
<memesinspace>
my mercury engine begs to differ
<Agathorn>
you were probably askig for gravity to help you :)
<Agathorn>
That is why we do what is called ullage
<Agathorn>
or .. th engine had no ignitions
<memesinspace>
^^
<Agathorn>
lots of factors involved really
<memesinspace>
i just tried to go to orbit without stopping; bad idea
<memesinspace>
i got like this weird super eccentric orbit with like 900k ap and 22k pe
<Agathorn>
point being fuel and oxi is drawn through a pump in most (not all I don't think) engines and that takes time to happen, so it takes a second or two
<memesinspace>
ah ok now i get real life
<Agathorn>
it doesn't take 5 seconds, but it takes a couple
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<memesinspace>
oh wait i can't turn to go retrograde haha jebediah is going to his grave
<Agathorn>
some engines are snappier than others
<memesinspace>
wait rcs!!
<memesinspace>
crap don't have any.
<Agathorn>
early rockets didn't have a surplus of control :)
<memesinspace>
yeah nope. that's why we couldn't put people on em
<Agathorn>
hence the highly eccentric orbits of early satellites
<memesinspace>
cus if a probe blows up nobody cares. if a person blows up then you get funding uct