<Qboid>
Pap: rsparkyc left a message for you in #RO [18.06.2017 20:00:12]: "I had an idea last night for the new payload resource you're working on, i'm going to put some details in one of the RP-0 tickets"
<Bornholio>
gimme a few regex and i'll load up with this. any hand loads?
<Pap>
soundnfury: Copy-Paste error, thanks
<regex>
Zero hand loads, all CKAN for that test
<regex>
Is there some approved save file settings that RP-0 or RO needs?
<regex>
Like something about the upgrades?
<Bornholio>
regex loading from .ckan :Kopernicus requires a version 2:release-1.2.2-6. However a incompatible version, 2:release-1.2.2-5, is in the resolver
<regex>
Would that affect RCS?
<Bornholio>
.shurg
<Bornholio>
shrug
<regex>
I don't know, I'll try anything at this point
<Bornholio>
i'm still trying to load it after i edit that
<regex>
motherfucker
<regex>
mother
<regex>
fucker
<regex>
god damnit, sorry for wasting your time
<regex>
fuck, I'm dying over here
<regex>
I forgot to hit R
<Bornholio>
no, just i might be missing did you change your allowable versions?
<Bornholio>
lol
<Probus>
That's hilarious! Done the same thing!
<regex>
I've gone through like fucking twelkve installs today wondering what I did wrong.
<egg>
Ꙩ_ꙩ they also opened an issue on some iOS utility?
<egg>
well that's a *seriously* confused user
<regex>
bot.
<regex>
Also, successful launch, although MechJeb wants to shut off my engines in mid flight. Is there a setting I'm missing or should I just launch manually?
<regex>
The RCS worked once I hit "R"
<regex>
o/
regex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Bornholio>
you have limit accel on?
<Bornholio>
lol too late
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<Agathorn>
Hey all, as promised here is a small video for you showing the Stellar Trail launch simulation in action for the very first time! https://youtu.be/E1sgL2k9zSE
<Agathorn>
Please note that to say "very rough" is an uinderstatement :) Tons of graphical issues and what not that I just don't care about at this point in time
<Agathorn>
!tell NathanKell,regex,stratochief,pap Stellar Trail launch simulation in action! https://youtu.be/E1sgL2k9zSE
<Qboid>
Agathorn: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
Watching now Agathorn! Is that a BDB Vanguard first stage?
<Qboid>
Pap: Agathorn left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 01:14:24]: "Stellar Trail launch simulation in action! https://youtu.be/E1sgL2k9zSE"
<Agathorn>
yeah CobaltWolf loaned me some models to use for prototyping
<Agathorn>
!tell CobaltWolf Stellar Trail launch simulation in action. Thanks again for letting me use some of your models for pototyping! https://youtu.be/E1sgL2k9zSE
<Qboid>
Agathorn: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
That is really cool Agathorn! Congratulations on getting that going!
<stratochief>
Agathorn: is the rocket vibrating/jumping around due to floating point positions issues near the end, or is that just my eyes?
<Qboid>
stratochief: Agathorn left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 01:14:24]: "Stellar Trail launch simulation in action! https://youtu.be/E1sgL2k9zSE"
<Agathorn>
stratochief: yeah fp errorzx
<stratochief>
same question about the shadow, more or less
<Agathorn>
yeah
<Agathorn>
I haven't implemented any floating origin or any other tricks yet
<stratochief>
Agathorn: gotcha. well, still an impressive demo non-the-less
<Pap>
So is it possible to fix something like floating point errors like that?
<Agathorn>
well workarounds
<Agathorn>
most common of which is to not go real scale lol.. second most common floating origin.. not sure how to integrate that yet with the simulation engine though so i'l leaving it for another day
<egg|zzz|egg>
you could just run with double-doubles, easier than a floating origin and functionally equivalent
<Pap>
Correct me if I am wrong, but it is caused by how the processors process the math, correct?
<egg|zzz|egg>
it's scale independent damn you
<egg|zzz|egg>
that's the whole point of floating point arithmetic
<Agathorn>
egg|zzz|egg: yeah but then you have to reproject back to float for Unity anmd while i'm sure thats all old hat to you, its nothing i've tried doing
* egg|zzz|egg
stabs everyone with floating point
* egg|zzz|egg
should sleep
<Agathorn>
plus the gpu is also float
<Agathorn>
so eventually I'll have to setup multiple cameras I imagine
<egg|zzz|egg>
yes, but anyway you'll need at least double on your own side
<Agathorn>
yeah
<egg|zzz|egg>
likely double-double for some applications
<egg|zzz|egg>
(pairs of doubles, poor man's quad)
<egg|zzz|egg>
anyway I should sleep, but then I fear people might start being wrong about floating point
<Agathorn>
I don't need to simulate the entire solar system in my case
<Agathorn>
so I can cheat there
<egg|zzz|egg>
so then double should be fine
<Agathorn>
worst case would be something like Saturn I guess
<egg|zzz|egg>
hm
<egg|zzz|egg>
how fine do you need to go on the craft
<Agathorn>
given its radius I mean
<Agathorn>
not entirely sure yet
<Agathorn>
haven't tried building craft out of more than a single stage yet
<egg|zzz|egg>
anyway double should be fine in the entire inner solar system
<egg|zzz|egg>
even in solar system barycentre coords
<Agathorn>
but since I can move the SOI to the origin I think double will be fine
<egg|zzz|egg>
but what about interplanetary flight
<Agathorn>
it isn't like KSP where you acxtually fly it
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<egg|zzz|egg>
but orbital mechanics is fun :-p
<Agathorn>
will essentially be like cuts in a movie :)
<egg|zzz|egg>
something something principia the game
<Pap>
Lunar Sample Return once you get Hydrolox NK?
<Agathorn>
heh did you see how much I struggled to even get this much working? lol
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Agathorn left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 01:14:24]: "Stellar Trail launch simulation in action! https://youtu.be/E1sgL2k9zSE"
<NathanKell>
Agathorn Was just watching it actually. Nice! :)
<egg|zzz|egg>
Agathorn: anyway, good luck, and be careful not to be to daft about floating points, lest eggs appear from the void to lecture you
<Agathorn>
So the goal with the simulation isn't hyper accuracy but rather believable simulation - For those who watched it would say it achives that?
<Agathorn>
:)
<Pap>
What is a good amount of NitrousOxide to have in an Upper Stage for attitude control?
<Pap>
I always over-pack
<taniwha>
Agathorn: so far, it feels right
* egg|zzz|egg
vanishes in a puff of round-off
<Agathorn>
taniwha: cool -it feels right to me as well but i'm biased :)
<taniwha>
hmm, small planet?
<taniwha>
curvature seems a bit much for 80km for Earth
<Agathorn>
lens is a bit extrewme
<NathanKell>
Pap: Stage size?
<NathanKell>
Use?
<Agathorn>
planet is real world size (hence the floating point issues near the end)
<NathanKell>
anywhere from 5-20kg probably, depending
<taniwha>
Agathorn: ah, ok
<taniwha>
ooh, suffering 32-bit jitters already?
<Agathorn>
of course :)
<Pap>
2.5 minute AJ10-42, 2.3 tons
<Agathorn>
near the end it is pretty far away from the origin
<egg|zzz|egg>
ieee 754 binary32 has a *tiny* mantissa tbh
<Agathorn>
gets up to like 150,000 Y and I thiunk around 400,000 ish in the Z
<taniwha>
egg|zzz|egg: not as bad as 16-bit floats :P
<NathanKell>
Pap: 10kg is plenty I'd say
<egg|zzz|egg>
taniwha: yes but binary16 is intended for storage only
<Pap>
Thanks
<Rokker>
fucking christ
<Rokker>
this channel is more active than official
<Agathorn>
more sane too
<Pap>
Damn I hate the AJ-10 and their requirement for pressurized tanks. No delta-v for me
<egg|zzz|egg>
it also has more eggs
<egg|zzz|egg>
Agathorn: dubious
<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
depends on the day I guess heh
<egg|zzz|egg>
Agathorn: bear in mind eggs may jump in at any time to yell about floating point misunderstandings :-p
<NathanKell>
Rokker: Heh
<NathanKell>
Pap: #respect for Dleta
<Agathorn>
eggs who should be sleeping
<NathanKell>
s/Dle/Del/
<Qboid>
NathanKell meant to say: Pap: #respect for Delta
<Agathorn>
NathanKell: did that launch sim feel believable to you?
<egg|zzz|egg>
Agathorn: true
<Pap>
Who is glilienthal that was commenting on the contracts?
<NathanKell>
Pap: To be fair, in France that counts as French :P
<Pap>
lol
<leudaimon>
cool Agathorn! how do you define the trajectory?
<Agathorn>
leudaimon: similiar to how MJ does it.. its just a baked trajectory curve
<leudaimon>
ah nice, so things are pretty advanced already
<Agathorn>
heh no not rewally.. there is no intelligence there
<Agathorn>
its just a lookup curve of altitiude verus pitch :)
<Agathorn>
the goasl isn't neccesdarily to actually insert into a proper orbit, but rather just look like it did
<leudaimon>
yeah, but its neat
<Agathorn>
thanks :)
<leudaimon>
you even have geography already
Saabstory88 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<Pap>
Agathorn: are you going to let the player determine launch characteristics?
<Pap>
NK, I saw your message about setting the new levels for the launch pad, did you do the same for the Research Center?
<Agathorn>
Pap not really.. I mean some missions will be to different orbits, or of course other planets, but direct control over a vehicle isn't in the scope
<Agathorn>
its more about design and management
<Pap>
That is how I understood your original plan Agathorn
<Pap>
Bornholio: stop playing without RT and you won't have any issues with the Communotron 16 ;)
<leudaimon>
Pap, how is the R&D building levels going to work?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Oh crap I forgot about R&D
<NathanKell>
what are the node costs?
<NathanKell>
I'll set the levels for that
<leudaimon>
I was thinking changes to the rate each upgrade point gives in each level can be a good way to control research speed
<Pap>
The original thought was that it would lock you out of progressing past the next era without upgrading. So The first level would let you research through Satellite, then each era would need an unlock to get the Blue Sky Research for that
<Pap>
NK, that is a good idea by leudaimon as well
<NathanKell>
yeah, right now it's (1 + ((level-1)*.5)
<NathanKell>
so 100%, 150%, 200%
<Pap>
^ smart people are awesome
<leudaimon>
yeah, could be non-liear
<NathanKell>
yeah, I had to go nonlinear for the pad
<leudaimon>
I thought it was something like that
Agathorn is now known as Agathorn|Food
<NathanKell>
Pap: What are the node costs each tier?
<leudaimon>
like 100%, 500%, 2000% and so on, so that upgrade points make more sense for more expensive techs
<NathanKell>
But the whole point is that upgrades represent workforce
<Pap>
NathanKell: 10 (should be unlocked with tier 1)-25-50-75-100-150-200-300
<NathanKell>
you'll get more productivity out of someone with a higher R&D center tier, but not 20x productivity...
<NathanKell>
Pap: Cool, thanks
<leudaimon>
I also think the bluesky techs that will be the threshold can be more expensive than "regular" nodes, so that tech prices in general don't need to go up so fast
<leudaimon>
yeah, I see... but I don't see why research time should increase so much in terms of person-hours from early techs to later ones
rsparkyc has joined #RO
<Pap>
leudaimon: they are not currently set up that way, but that does not mean that it cannot change, what I am finding in my playthrough so far is that I have plenty of science, but am waiting on times
rsparkyc has quit [Client Quit]
<Pap>
s/times/time to finish
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: leudaimon: they are not currently set up that way, but that does not mean that it cannot change, what I am finding in my playthrough so far is that I have plenty of science, but am waiting on time to finish
<leudaimon>
yeah, I always end up with 10 or more nodes unlocked and with huge waiting times
<NathanKell>
Pap: Pushed
<NathanKell>
WIP obvs
<Pap>
That might mean that our science gains are too high from the beginning, science is so damn difficult to manage
rsparkyc has joined #RO
<leudaimon>
start science is telemetry termo and baro as it is now?
<Pap>
yes
<leudaimon>
same science values too?
<Pap>
yes
<leudaimon>
I personally think earth low atmo science could go very very low, and in general values as they are on hard make more sense than on normal or moderate
<leudaimon>
have you compared the total amount of science more or less per era, compared to the current tree?
CobaltWolf has joined #RO
<Bornholio>
what is return to 100km orbit for lunar ascent dV
Moistmelon has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
<CobaltWolf>
o/ suh dudes
<Qboid>
CobaltWolf: Agathorn left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 01:16:46]: "Stellar Trail launch simulation in action. Thanks again for letting me use some of your models for pototyping! https://youtu.be/E1sgL2k9zSE"
<Bornholio>
is 1700dV right, or somewhat more?
<NathanKell>
More
<NathanKell>
LEM ascent budgeted ~2400 for ascent and rendezvous
<CobaltWolf>
more WIP on habing a decently accurate CM...
<CobaltWolf>
this version is #fire
<NathanKell>
:)
<NathanKell>
leudaimon I would tend to agree on science, but this new tree has more early nodes comparatively to soak up the science so I dunno
<Bornholio>
looks like i have 2350 left, was hoping to get up to park as a comsat, oh well i borked my landing so a couple hundred less than planned
<Pap>
leudaimon: I have not done that yet, it is so different that I don't even know if comparing them helps
<NathanKell>
Pap: Do you want me to test Russia, US, or combined?
<NathanKell>
starting a new career
<Pap>
When most people play, do you think they pick a side, or play combined?
<blowfish>
CobaltWolf: what's with the nosecone?
<blowfish>
(and nice work of course)
<Pap>
I play almost exclusively US
<CobaltWolf>
blowfish: it's on fire
<blowfish>
?
<blowfish>
no LES?
<CobaltWolf>
blowfish: by which I mean a bunch of people have requested a Block 1 nosecone to replace the docking mechanism, and it wasn't too much work
<blowfish>
ah
<NathanKell>
Ah!
<CobaltWolf>
in any case it was super quick and saves me having to do the docking mechanism texture right away
<NathanKell>
Pap: I think probably half pick a side, and half combine
<Pap>
NK, your choice between Russia or Combined
<NathanKell>
Ok. Why not Russia, since I'll be doing Combined for the Official Tutorial Series (tm)
<leudaimon>
:D love russian side (+AJ-10s)
<NathanKell>
My spaceplane was very crimped from lacking US hypergolics.
<leudaimon>
My impression is there are more nodes overall, right?
<Pap>
by a lot leudaimon
<leudaimon>
my main concern is in later ages, much more nodes and only moon+earth science won't take you far
<leudaimon>
I always had the feeling humans give too few science also... unless you go for landings
<Pap>
leudaimon: that is what I am concerned about as well. That is why I am trying to play through this to see where we will be at with that. I wish there was an easy way to say, ok, I want to start in the Lunar Landing Era and go from there
<NathanKell>
Pap: Difficulty?
<NathanKell>
I'm thinking Hard?
<CobaltWolf>
Pap: what is this?
<Bornholio>
I notice i scrap all the science efficiently, more than i think is reasonable and that is a reason why the techs are piling up faster than reseach time allows. But this shows an agency focussed on reseasrch heavier than money
<leudaimon>
but scansat and dmagic are dependencies now, right?
<Pap>
Try Hard with funds penalties corrected, but didn't you create a preset?
<NathanKell>
I did make the preset thing, so no more remembering to correct :)
<NathanKell>
wait wait since when is dmagic a dependency?
<NathanKell>
Or scansat more than a rec?
<leudaimon>
btw NathanKell, if you intend to use simulations, Pap has a cfg for KRASH in rp-0
<Pap>
leudaimon: not necessarily dependencies, but placed and they are all later techs, so that might help
<Pap>
oh yeah, NK, want to test that cfg as well?
<Pap>
CobaltWolf: new tech tree for RP-0
<NathanKell>
Ah, I don't have KRASH
<leudaimon>
ah ok... but the game balance should be thought with or without them, imo
<leudaimon>
and values for their experiments defines (I think they are shrinked exactly to don't interfere with balance right?)
<leudaimon>
s/defines/defined
<Qboid>
leudaimon meant to say: and values for their experiments defined (I think they are shrinked exactly to don't interfere with balance right?)
<NathanKell>
Pap: Aerobee stuff is still in start, looks like?
<Bornholio>
if anything that orbital science module is what explodes my points not DMagic
<Pap>
yes NathanKell, we changed it back after the confusion
<NathanKell>
?
<NathanKell>
I thought we changed them to be not in start
<NathanKell>
Because of the confusion about tank size etc
<Pap>
some feedback from (I think soundnfury) said taht it was confusing with Aerobee unlocking later (despite it being different sizes)
<Pap>
NathanKell: doesn't matter to me either way, and the change takes 2 minutes
<leudaimon>
I mentioned something similar also... what are those parts supposed to be?
<NathanKell>
Yeah, I think we need to rename the existing VSR engine to "WAC Corporal Sustainer" and remove the later configs, and use the Taerobee Aerobee engine for XASR-1 and AJ10-27
<NathanKell>
Then we can put all the aerobee parts later
<Pap>
NathanKell: yes, but then what happens if you don't play with Taerobee?
<Pap>
^ blasphemy I know
<NathanKell>
I guess we could clone the engine in that case
<NathanKell>
I thought we required it? Only rec?
<Pap>
I think only rec
<CobaltWolf>
y'all better req Taerobee I stayed up late two nights in a row making that :P
<NathanKell>
CobaltWolf: How would you feel about WAC parts? :)
<CobaltWolf>
can't say I'm very up to it, I've been yelled at recently for not releasing new stuff for BDB fast enough. I'd ignore it but the people upset with me were donators :P
<Pap>
CobaltWolf: just needs to give us permission to take the Taerobee parts into RO as art assets, the V-2 and Aerobee parts should be standard
<CobaltWolf>
they're already CC-BY-NC or whatever
<leudaimon>
NK, will you stream this new career today?
<rsparkyc>
NathanKell, leudaimon, soundnfury, i take it for RIS, we're not using DMagic, correct?
<leudaimon>
I have the mod but won't unlock the parts
<rsparkyc>
ok, same here
<rsparkyc>
just wanted to double check
<NathanKell>
leudaimon: Ask and ye shall receive
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<NathanKell|Twitch>
rsparkyc: Correct
<CobaltWolf>
does Nathankell have a mic to stream with?
<CobaltWolf>
:P
<leudaimon>
wow, good timing NathanKell|Twitch
<Pap>
CobaltWolf: professional streamer
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vHj6Y
<github>
RealismOverhaul/pap1723-ROupdates 9958f8f pap1723: Fixed Early Medium Solar Panels, Fixed SSTU unlocks
Hypergolic_Skunk has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
rsparkyc has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Bornholio is now known as Born|toSleep
regex has joined #RO
Agathorn|Food is now known as Agathorn
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell|AFK
<Pap>
NathanKell, you want to move the XLR11 to which node? The first Rocketry one?
<Pap>
Have a good dinner
<NathanKell|AFK>
Pap: That was my thought. Originally I had that (and the XLR99) in aero nodes because we had so few rocketry nodes
<NathanKell|AFK>
but now we have lots of awesome rocketry nodes, we probably should put them back
<Pap>
Makes sense
<taniwha>
NathanKell|AFK: just in case you didn't see it in twitch: hmm, however, I think quicksave forces a persistent.sfs save too. so f5 then return to space center might be ok
<NathanKell|AFK>
taniwha: Yes, that would work. Force persistence update, then revert to that
<NathanKell|AFK>
Still, freaking weird logic.
<NathanKell|AFK>
>.>
<NathanKell|AFK>
Dates to when you couldn't save in atmo I guess
<taniwha>
yes
<NathanKell|AFK>
o/
<regex>
Also, about those interstage fairings...
<Qboid>
regex: Agathorn left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 01:14:24]: "Stellar Trail launch simulation in action! https://youtu.be/E1sgL2k9zSE"
<Pap>
regex: no interstage fairings issue
<regex>
So that's not an issue? Okay.
<Pap>
Well it is ;)
<Pap>
I forgot to include the interstage fairing bases in the start node, but the newest update to my RP-0 branch fixes that
<regex>
Oh cool, thanks! I can't make nice A-4s without them
<regex>
although they were only a node or two past so it wasn't that big of a deal
<regex>
Does MechJeb's RO/RSS special handling make it not turn off engines suddenly?
<Pap>
regex: yes, that is the function as understand it, for example, I will let MJ control my first stage launch with the ascent guidance, if I turn off ascent guidance without that box checked, it kills my engines
<regex>
Thanks
<NathanKell|AFK>
regex set your desired Ap to like 20,000km to apps shutdowns
<NathanKell|AFK>
regex set your desired Ap to like 20,000km
<NathanKell|AFK>
That will prevent shutdown on Ap reached
Hohman has joined #RO
<regex>
Ah, gotcha
<regex>
Also, almost made orbit with this thing...
<Theysen>
don't even know why :D I made a swing for little children
<Theysen>
with rocket motors
<egg|work|egg>
wheeee
Hypergolic_Skunk has joined #RO
SirKeplanzzz is now known as SirKeplan
KevinStarwaster has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
good morning. I tried both the 'stock' RSS biome texture file, and the one by Pap, and for both the result is the same: nearly every piece of land on Earth is 'shore'. no grassland whatsoever, some mountains here and there. what could the problem be? the biome map looks fine
<riocrokite>
lol have you guys seen latest elon musk tweet?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I wonder about the sales impact of Elon Musk endorsing a certain model
<Theysen>
shouldn't worry.. iPhone still remains the best
<riocrokite>
negligible I think
<riocrokite>
if he was female rockstar or selfie celebrity it would be another story
<riocrokite>
erm popstar
Pap|Sleep is now known as Pap
<Pap>
o/
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 05:37:53]: "I think the Orbit Recovery contract was still looking for the old heatshield tech node name"
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 05:44:24]: "the supersonic wings should be in the first flight node IMO. Thoughts?"
<Qboid>
Pap: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 06:36:05]: "the problem with the Agena is that the TREE-Engine_Configs.cfg patches have @CONFIG[XLR-BA-x] rather than XLR81-BA-x"
<Qboid>
Pap: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 07:02:00]: "(also there's no PARTUPGRADEs in its RO config file, hence the lack of tech tree icons)"
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 07:06:56]: "should we maybe move the attitude jets back to start, or postwar? They're not high-tech, just compressed nitrogen jets..."
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Did your Earth.cfg file get corrupted somehow?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: could be. I will replace it and check :)
rsparkyc has joined #RO
B787_300 is now known as B787_Work
rsparkyc has quit [Client Quit]
rsparkyc has joined #RO
<rsparkyc>
o/
<Pap>
o/
<rsparkyc>
hey Pap, i know you had wondered when i was going to roll the next RP-0 release, since you had some contract fixes
<rsparkyc>
I was probably going to do one today
<Pap>
You can go without me. I think I am going to wait until we get the new resources added in
<Theysen>
Pap, didn't you edit some SSTU tech unlock levels recently=
<Pap>
Theysen: only for the new Tech Tree
<Theysen>
gotcha tanks
<Theysen>
cause in the current their wrecked
<Theysen>
* they're
<Pap>
Really Theysen? acc did a bunch of work on them and I thought they were working
<Theysen>
I unlocked 3m tanks but the MFT only gives you 2m total
<acc>
I did only the three main tanks
<acc>
and the r-7-ish side tanks, if I remember right
<Theysen>
Pap, no no that's all in the 1.3 compiled version with the recoloring
<Theysen>
thanks :)
<acc>
I did that before recoloring
<Pap>
Ok, so we are all playing with the same version. acc edits should work
<acc>
duno if or how that could mess things up tech-wise
<Theysen>
recoloring is out of the scope here, we're talking 1.2.2. I'll douvle check in my career save
<acc>
ah, k
<Theysen>
okay the standard tank isn't even referenced in that file strangely
<Theysen>
oh wait
ferram4 has joined #RO
<Pap>
The strange thing that I came across is that when I tried to change the SSTU unlocks using my new Tech Tree, they did not work and were over-written
<Theysen>
is this partupgrade module intended to work like what they implemented in stock? So I have to click something to have the bigger diameters or should it work like before where it just increases in the VAB when increasing diameter?
Duncan has joined #RO
<Theysen>
because mine in career is stuck at the maxdiameter of the general config file
<Theysen>
which is 2m
<Pap>
Theysen: from what I can tell with how they are implemented, I believe you have to unlock each PARTUPGRADE
<Pap>
But I could be wrong, it could be an automatic thing
<Theysen>
I mean, procedural tanks and fairings just work in the VAB right?
<Theysen>
so after unlocking the node the extended diameter is in, you can increase the size
<Duncan>
whenever I hit the eva button my kerbal just vaporises, and after the mission the log says he was burnt up. My last attempt was at 1400km altitude so I dont get it
<Theysen>
get newest DRE build Duncan
<Duncan>
is that a known issue?
<Theysen>
yes and already fixed
<Theysen>
Pap, IIRC SHadowmage mentioned something about the Part Upgrade settings in the Start New Game screen, he hooked into it to always apply those.
<Theysen>
if that's still the issue, this might somehow bork the module manager stuff?
<Theysen>
Yeah okay the SSTU Tank notes in the VAB: Has potential upgrades
<Theysen>
Pap, acc: found the upgrade. You can purchase the part again in the R&D building in its specific node (because I don't mass buy every part so these need specific love :P)
<Theysen>
all good then.
<acc>
alright :)
<Theysen>
all though this system has some quirks with other parts. You just unlock the tank types like balloon and service module on its own once the node is researched. You can still purchase those for 2.00 if you want in the R&D building
<Pap>
Ok good, that is what I thought
<Theysen>
sumthing broken
<Theysen>
and the stock proc tank caps at 4.6m in that node where all other things go to 4.6
<Theysen>
* 6.6
<rsparkyc>
hey pap: is this a known contract bug?
<rsparkyc>
it says that i'm about to complete First Orbital Flight (crewed)
<rsparkyc>
but this is just a probe that i launched
<Born|toSleep>
theysen you fix your stuck rocket?
<rsparkyc>
i don't know why it thinks i have 1 crewmember on board
<Pap>
rsparkyc: are you playing in a game with RtS?
Born|toSleep is now known as Bornholio
<rsparkyc>
yes
<rsparkyc>
wait, RIS, or RtS
<rsparkyc>
what's RtS?
<Pap>
soundnfury's mod
<rsparkyc>
race into space, right?
<Pap>
yes
<rsparkyc>
yes
<rsparkyc>
i'm not going to win that award, so that part doesn't matter as much
<Pap>
I think that RiS is somehow causing an issue with the contract parameter
<Theysen>
Bornholio,still trying to redo that probe and launcher
<Pap>
After the contract completes, can you please get your list of mods as well as the ouput_log and log files?
<Theysen>
if i get a stuck one again then the next career save is rip
<rsparkyc>
pap, sure
<Bornholio>
have tweakscale on it or using DMagic universal part without US
<rsparkyc>
!tell soundnfury,NathanKell,leudaimon did you have any issues with the First Orbital Flight (Crewed) contract being completed before you actually launched someone into orbit?
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<rsparkyc>
actually, it won't complete, because this won't return to home safely
<rsparkyc>
i'm just surprised the "Have 1 crewmember on board" is checked
<rsparkyc>
maybe because i just built a vessel that can support a crewmember?
<Bornholio>
is that the one for the checkout flight
Theysen_ has joined #RO
<Theysen_>
Bornholio, never did I have TweakScale in RO :P
<rsparkyc>
no
<rsparkyc>
this shouldn't even have crew capacity
<Bornholio>
well if you figure out the part tell me i want to make a summary post in RO thread about that topic.
<Bornholio>
It should be something that is or becomes negative mass for some reason
<Bornholio>
or zero mass might do it also
<Theysen_>
still stuck wtf
<Theysen_>
its the sstu decoupler, gg
<Theysen_>
i decreased the thickness until it was a plate and *I think* hit the hollow collider button
<Theysen_>
it's possessed now and spazzes out
<rsparkyc>
Pap, i'll need to do a capsule test flight, if that completest the contract i'll send you the logs
Theysen has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
<Pap>
That would be great rsparkyc, somehow that is getting checked off. I know others have had the same issue
<Bornholio>
thanks Theysen i
<Bornholio>
i'll load SSTU and duplicate it
<Theysen_>
Bornholio, I'm still testing
<Theysen_>
I can give you the .craft
<Bornholio>
sure
<Theysen_>
correction, I can't..
<Theysen_>
just deleted the save via the ingame menu and it's gine
<Bornholio>
i just stage the whole thing until it takes off or i isolate as much as possible.
<Bornholio>
lol
<Bornholio>
I'm a compulsive saver, i have to delete hundreds of saves every couple of days if i'm playing. My early experience with KSP was very negative
<Theysen_>
I did that, and the part on the decoupler remained, I am isolating now
<Hohman>
Which MJ version for 1.2.2?
<Theysen_>
no luck, I might have run into an edge case. I'll inform you if i run into it again
<Theysen_>
Hohman, the one CKAN gives you :)
<Pap>
rsparkyc: have you started on golden spreadsheet v1.3?
<Bornholio>
hohman dev 695 MJ
<Theysen_>
there are no recompiles for about 60% of the realism mods, I don't think you should bother
<Hohman>
Thank you Bornholio
<Theysen_>
Hohman, 2.6.0
<Theysen_>
oh dang, ninja haha
<Bornholio>
otherwise manuevers may fire early, lamont has 710 that works good also
<Pap>
Theysen_: true, but all it isa going to take is recompiles in most cases
<Theysen_>
Kell, Nathan himself said in his last stream to try to settle on 1.2.2 :P
<Theysen_>
for a longer time actually
<Pap>
ah, i gotcha
KevinStarwaster has joined #RO
<Theysen_>
I mean, if it's really no biggie then go for it of course
<Theysen_>
runway seams alone
<Theysen_>
but yeah
<Pap>
I am worried about thinks like Contract Configurator
<Pap>
therr have been a lot of bugfixes already, but they will not work back to 1.2.2
<rsparkyc>
Pap: haven't started on a 1.3 sheet yet
<Bornholio>
sooner than later the mods that are updating are going to cause the roll over. hopefully something major like FAR isn't the holdup this time.
<Pap>
rsparkyc: ok, thanks
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap, I checked the Earth.cfg - it's the one from your Earth-MoonBiomes file, it looks ok. I just copied over the default RSS biome textures and Earth.cfg, and restarted KSP, but the issue remains :( nearly all of Earth is 'shore'
Hohman has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 53.0.3/20170518000419]]
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
never mind, it's fixed now :))
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
the shore around KSC is just really big, had to fly 20km inland
<Bornholio>
you can use [o] see biomes in cheat menu too
Theysen_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
leudaimon has joined #RO
Theysen has joined #RO
<Theysen>
buying chicken meat in a 40°C environment outside without cooling wasn't my smartest idea :)
Thomas|AWAY is now known as Thomas
schnobs has joined #RO
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Bornholio: ah, good to know :)
<Duncan>
what was the exact inclination of the moon again?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
hey Pap :) which node unlocks the 'second stage' configuration for the procedural avionics? I just unlocked 'Basic Avionics and Probes', but the Proc. Avionics still only offers 'Booster'
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: You have to unllock it through the UI you get when you right click on the Proc Avionics part
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:O
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
thank you <3
<Duncan>
is there a source for all RSS orbital data somewhere I couldn't find it on their wiki
<leudaimon>
o/ Pap
<Qboid>
leudaimon: rsparkyc left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 13:23:48]: "did you have any issues with the First Orbital Flight (Crewed) contract being completed before you actually launched someone into orbit?"
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, I completed it in my orbital test, with the capsule empty.
Senshi has joined #RO
<Pap>
hey leudaimon
<Pap>
Duncan: what specifically are you looking for?
<Bornholio>
^
<Duncan>
moon inclination
<Duncan>
but a table of all the data would be cool if it exists
<Pap>
ah, if you are comfortable, you can look at the config files inside of the RealSolarSystem folder
<rsparkyc>
or play with principia, and say "it depends"
<Theysen>
for the RSS of course, Ducan. IRL its different
<Theysen>
as RSS tilts the whole system
<leudaimon>
how many tech levels do you think are necessary for each type of avionics?
<Duncan>
I know RSS doesn't exactly reflect real life, otherwise I could just check wikipedia
<leudaimon>
actually, the moon inclination in RSS reflects quite well real life doesn't it?
<Theysen>
Duncan, you can just add up the tilt angle of earth to any inclination
<rsparkyc>
!wa moon inclination
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: Moon | orbital inclination: 5.16° (degrees)
<rsparkyc>
well, that doesn't help
<Pap>
!wa earth inclination
<Qboid>
Pap: Earth | orbital inclination: 5×10^-5° (degrees)
<leudaimon>
that's relative to the ecliptic
<rsparkyc>
yeah
<Duncan>
the angle of the moon changes over time according to wikipedia, between 18 and 28 degrees
<Duncan>
unless I misread that
<rsparkyc>
that sounds correct
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, I was thinking a GUI similar to RCS might be more intuitive (three configs, and tech levels for each config), do you have strong feelings about things how they are now, and/or is it too difficult to change?
<Pap>
That is right, earth is a little more than 5 degrees off the ecliptic, right?
<Theysen>
yes
<Bornholio>
regardless duncan the moon is at a fixed 28.363 with all other data 0's except sma
<Duncan>
thanks
<rsparkyc>
leudaimon, I added that GUI to get more in line with RCS changes
<rsparkyc>
are you suggesting doing all the configuration in that GUI?
<Theysen>
can you remove the sliders then rsparkyc ? Or did you already?
<Pap>
leudaimon: I think 7 tech levels is fine. I would skip an upgrade during the Spaceplane era and then there wouldn't be one for modern day
<rsparkyc>
technically, you could remove the configuration slider, it was just there to quickly change between configs
<Bornholio>
general launch plane for other planets is Inc=23.446, Lpe 217.426, LAN 359.997
<rsparkyc>
if you want to just pick the best node you've unlocked, the slider is the easy way to do that
<leudaimon>
the config slider is great in my opinion... my preference (but that's just personal taste) would be to have tech numbers and the buttons to increase or decrease, similarly ot RCS
<Pap>
leudaimon: something that I mentioned to rsparkyc the other day is that I don't think that increasing the utilization is enough for an upgrade through the levels
<Bornholio>
they should default to max tech!
<Bornholio>
not sure how that can happen though
<rsparkyc>
with RCS, the only thing that's changing when you up a tech node is RCS
<rsparkyc>
with avionics, you're changing a lot more variables
<rsparkyc>
for instance, the early core has sample return, while a later one does not
<rsparkyc>
plus drain rates are changing too
<rsparkyc>
so that would be a lot of things to show are changing by just upgrading tech levels
<rsparkyc>
i'm not opposed, it would just require some thinking to figure those things out
<leudaimon>
I see... in RCS you have thrust and Isp, but I see your point
<rsparkyc>
ahh, yeah, didn't think about thrust
<Pap>
rsparkyc: Ahhhhh, so that is why you didn't use the PARTUPGRADE system, I didn't know that there would ever be times to use a less modern version
<rsparkyc>
yep
<leudaimon>
frankly, I think upgrades should be always incremental, without "losing" functionality
<rsparkyc>
i tend to agree, but was trying to match it up to the avionics units we already had
<rsparkyc>
with that being said, maybe we provide an option to add a sample return
<Pap>
^ I agree, why take the sample return function away?
<rsparkyc>
so you can configure your probe cores to either have it (more mass, more expensive), or not
<leudaimon>
sample return, for example, as well as turn-off option, could be togglables you from a certain point, and cost you more to have
<rsparkyc>
exactly
<rsparkyc>
and that should be easy for me to write
<Pap>
Remember this about RP-0. Nothing past Apollo is fleshed out and thought through completely
<rsparkyc>
the config would just be set up to show if having a sample return is possible
<Pap>
rsparkyc: that would be a great feature
<rsparkyc>
yeah, these were all pre-apollo nodes i did
<rsparkyc>
also, you guys are free to write code and submit PRs :)
<leudaimon>
exactly rsparkyc both shut-down and sample return should be optional up from TL2 or 3
<Pap>
<----wishes I could write code, not there yet, give me 6 months
<leudaimon>
besides writing cfgs I'm not able of much
<rsparkyc>
guys: if you're smart enough to figure out how to land something on the moon, you can learn to code
<leudaimon>
:P
<rsparkyc>
programming isn't rocket science (well, sometimes it is)
<Pap>
Right, if I want to do a modern Mars sample return mission, I shouldn't have touse tech from the 60's to accomplish it
<Pap>
rsparkyc: I am learning, I'll be ready soon**
<leudaimon>
I do have crude coding skills, but don't have the time to learn the details of what you are doing
<leudaimon>
(I mostly do data science stuff)
<leudaimon>
do you guys have any complaints about the values I came up with? Pap, I don't have a ksp install in this potato I'm using these days, so can't check what exactly is in the tree levels these things will go into to compare
<Agathorn>
rsparkyc: I programmed a launch simulation this weekend so.. yeah :)
<rsparkyc>
haha
<Bornholio>
but desire to program is a big thing. Otherwise i'd have completed a computer science degree 20 years ago
<Pap>
also rsparkyc, I am working on many other aspects of RO/RP-0, so I am more of an ideas guy for things like Proc Avionics that are in the hands of far more capable people
<rsparkyc>
that's fair
<Bornholio>
sure i had something before that modified ISRU to make real fuels materials or atleast Community resource pack resources
<Pap>
leudaimon: Here is my only thing I want to make sure happens...
<Pap>
leudaimon: let's say that I have a 2m first stage and I want to put Proc Avionics on it. I want my avionics to me 2m because it looks best and I don't have to clip it into a fairing, or create a NK like interstage beauty...
<leudaimon>
the way it currently works, you will definitely be able to do that. just adjust the part height to match the intended utilization
<Pap>
The issue I have is, that at a certain height, it just looks ridiculously small (actually if you make it 10cm, you can see completely through the part) so I would like to see mass improvements alongside utilization or instead of utilization improvements, is tatt eve possible?
<Pap>
s/tatt eve/that even
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: The issue I have is, that at a certain height, it just looks ridiculously small (actually if you make it 10cm, you can see completely through the part) so I would like to see mass improvements alongside utilization or instead of utilization improvements, is that even possible?
<rsparkyc>
one option is to add another utilization slider, like realfuels does with tanks
<leudaimon>
if I had to make a wishlist for rsparkyc, I would say being able to slide utilization independently of part size, and have the "spare" part size to become and empty tank, would be in the top
<leudaimon>
ninjaed by rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
lol
<rsparkyc>
make an issue in RP-0
<rsparkyc>
assign it to me
<rsparkyc>
tag it with "balance"
<leudaimon>
don't know if I can do that stuff, but I'll make the issue
<rsparkyc>
ok, i can add the tags
<rsparkyc>
if you make the issue that would help
<leudaimon>
sure, I'll do it right away
<Bornholio>
I'd love to have a list of options that add mass giving science box, and the small box instruments integration :)
<Bornholio>
I end up snapping all those parts together anyways, and making a science box out of a mechjeb case
<leudaimon>
Pap, where currently is the easiest place for me to find the technode names (and plaecement) without a ksp install?
<Pap>
leudaimon: do you have Excel?
<leudaimon>
yeah
<Agathorn>
rsparkyc, Bornholio did you see my lauch sim last night?
<Pap>
ok
<leudaimon>
libreoffice, but shouldn't be an issue, right?
<Pap>
leudaimon: If you look at the TreeLookup tab, it has every year and the corresponding tech for that year
blowfish has joined #RO
<Pap>
leudaimon: if you use the first tab, you can simply enter the category you want and the year you want it implemented and it will populate for you
<leudaimon>
oh cool
<leudaimon>
procedural avionics config adds the node in a field... I'll put node names in that spreadsheet first
<Bornholio>
agathorn did not, point me again if its still up
<blowfish>
So apparently the Falcon Heavy can only support 10ish tons of payload due to structural limitations
<rsparkyc>
Agathorn, nice
<blowfish>
I guess that means Delta IV Heavy is sill the king of GTO for now
<Agathorn>
its a rough video, the graphics are all wip obviously, but that is a simulated ascent of something akin to a Vanguard 1st stage (just the 1st stage..staging isn't working in the sim yet)
<Pap>
leudaimon: if you filter column G in the first tab into ProceduralAvionics, then you will see what I have placed already
<Pap>
blowfish: do you have a link on that?
<Bornholio>
agathorn fun, looking good
<leudaimon>
cool Pap
<Agathorn>
the goal here is to find that middle ground between full simulation like KSP and premade cutscene like in BARIS...So the various mission stages, like laiunch, are fully simulated but not neccesarily to the intricate detail and ccuracy of KSP and the player isn't in direct control
<Agathorn>
they focus more on the management and planning
<Agathorn>
then get to watch the fruits of their labor :)
<Agathorn>
so just to be clear, which I guess isn't obvious in the video, I was not controlling that ricket at any time
<Agathorn>
rocket*
<leudaimon>
some of the macros don't work, but I think I can find the info I want
<Pap>
no macros leudaimon, just some formulas
<Bornholio>
i think that one of the reasons why Stock KSp is that scale is the time to orbit, 10-12 minutes is too long for a lot of people and they find it boring.
<leudaimon>
ah ok, not sure what issue is going on, but lots of errors anyway... but don't worry, I can see the tech progression
<blowfish>
apparently it's mostly the payload adapter which they will upgrade at some point
<Bornholio>
you may want to have a scaling timescale in a launch view agathorn. obvioiusly we are not that impatient croud :P
<Agathorn>
Bornholio: the current plan (always subject to change) is that missions run completely in real time. For some things, like say lunar coast, there won't be anything to watch at all and you will just come back to mission control when it gets to the moon. For other things like lanch, it is here and available for you to watch in Mission control but you can choose to just not watch or leave early if you want.. but no time
<Agathorn>
compression t the moment during a mission
<Agathorn>
time can be sped up outside mission control
<Agathorn>
again all subject to change based on tech and gameplay feedback
<Agathorn>
you do raise a gooid point though
<leudaimon>
Pap, is table15 in another file?
<Pap>
table15 is the first tab
<leudaimon>
weird, lots of Err:508 in fields that ask for it
<Pap>
leudaimon: would Google drive be easier? It works well inside there
<Pap>
leudaimon: it is a very powerful sheet, let's me change huge amounts of parts and make all changes very quickly
<leudaimon>
very cool Pap!
schnobs has quit [Ping timeout: 200 seconds]
<leudaimon>
I'm thinking if boosters need 1 more level than the rest
<leudaimon>
or even 2, given they are in the starting node, and are the only ones in the PW era
aradapilot_ has joined #RO
aradapilot has quit [Ping timeout: 201 seconds]
<Theysen>
can we implement weather balloons? :(
<Theysen>
taking 4 hours to rise up and youre stuck in phys warp
<Bornholio>
I did manned venus landings using balloons that was a long trip
<Theysen>
they didn't go poof on the way down`
<Theysen>
what was in there? Bricks?
<Bornholio>
lol, had to carefully inflate the forces on it blew them up in testing
<Bornholio>
only for ascent tho, just a drag chute for descent
<Agathorn>
need to make those floating cities on venus
<leudaimon>
Pap, there is no way the 20in X-ray detector should unlock in the same node as the early probe core...
<Agathorn>
like what was proposed at one time
regex has joined #RO
<Duncan>
ok so I need to be currently piloting a probe for it to count as a moon impact
<Duncan>
wish I had known that
<regex>
Pretty sure all contract conditions are tested on the active craft. Something to remember for the future.
<regex>
^tested against
<Duncan>
yeah
<leudaimon>
there are many issues with contracts completing in unloaded vessels
<Duncan>
I just executed that stage drop into the moon that was actually done irl
<Duncan>
where the main probe flies through the dust cloud
<Duncan>
but I was on the wrong part
<Duncan>
guess I will just crasht he main probe too
<Bornholio>
agathorn manned mission to mid latitude venusian atmoshpere is still pushed by some groups as more feasable than mars
<Bornholio>
duncan put a couple of spinng snubotrons on a sphere probe core and launch it ahead of your lunar orbiter, but directly at moon center
<Bornholio>
then switch to it
<Duncan>
nah its fine I dont need a permanent moon sat at this stage, I will just drop the one that is there
<leudaimon>
Pap, I have an initial progression on that spreadsheet. Skipped some later nodes, and sticked to 9 booster TLs, and 7 of the others
TM1978m has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Pap>
leudaimon: Are you saying that the 20in x-ray should unlock earlier?
<leudaimon>
yeah, at earlyavionics I think it makes much more sense
<leudaimon>
Pap, another thing. I see you put the first proc avionics in the first node, while there are some non-procedurals in the start. I think everything should be on the same, whatever they are
<leudaimon>
I liked the idea of having no guidance without R&D into avionics
<Pap>
leudaimon: I liked having the procedurals after the start as well, but taht was when the A-4 was not in the start. With it being in the starting node, maybe the procedurals should move back
<Bornholio>
would it be limited to staging only?
<leudaimon>
ok, I made it this way
<leudaimon>
I'm starting writing the cfg according to what I put on the spreadsheet
<leudaimon>
yep Bornholio, sounding rockets are unguided as a rule
regex has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
regex has joined #RO
<Bornholio>
is the xray detector going to be in fisrt node?
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, please remind me why do we have max tonnage?
<Pap>
Bornholio: no, it iwll be the same node as explorer probe
<leudaimon>
^
<rsparkyc>
leudaimon, because non-procedurals do?
egg|afk|egg is now known as egg
<Bornholio>
10 may 1946...
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, but you can use a pile of avionics parts and get as much as you want...
<rsparkyc>
yes, you could. my gut told me that i felt like they should be capped
<rsparkyc>
and honestly the caps have never hurt me
<leudaimon>
do you think removing the cap could cause unintended consequences? does efficiencies get crazily good at high tonnages in the current setup?
<leudaimon>
I just think it would be silly if you had to use 2 procedural parts because the cap was reached
<leudaimon>
I see the point in lower caps... I'm even increasing them a little in higher TLs, to avoid exploitations
ferram4 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<rsparkyc>
yeah, lower caps make the most sense, probe cores don't have upper caps, so i think leaving them off would be fine
ferram4 has joined #RO
<rsparkyc>
so i'm fine with leaving the off for the new tech tree
<leudaimon>
ok, so I'll remove them, and if at the testing phase we detect exploits we put them back
<leudaimon>
I just started thinking about the weight of an R-7 and thought it didn't really make much sense to put a cap
<rsparkyc>
cool
NathanKell|WORK has joined #RO
<NathanKell|WORK>
Duncan: RSS does use real orbital numbers, so just look them up anywhere :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
But note that inclinations, as others said, are wrt to the equator, not the ecliptic.
<Bornholio>
is there a good spreadsheet of them adjusted?
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: What other options do we have instead of limiting mass amounts to be launched at the launch pads?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Inclinations? No, but IIRC you can have HORIZONS output in that format. egg|work|egg ?
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: What do you mean?
<Pap>
We have talked about what do we do to simulate an R-7, and leudaimon just brought up the R-7 as well. I am trying to think of outside the box ideas instead of a hard cap, but I cannot come up with anything
<NathanKell|WORK>
What do you mean, to simulate it?
<NathanKell|WORK>
You just unlock up to the 320t pad...
<Pap>
Right, but I will need a ton of money to be able to do that at a time when I probably won't have that much, correct?
<leudaimon>
Pap, I think there are other caps to tonnage already (launch pad especially)
<NathanKell|WORK>
No more money than you used to
<NathanKell|WORK>
The original First Satellite contract was designed so that, at Normal difficulty, you had enough money to unlock R-7 parts plus the pad.
<NathanKell|WORK>
That should (AFAIK) still be true
<leudaimon>
NathanKell|WORK, that are the current launch pad tiers now?
<NathanKell|WORK>
It's just that money is spread over 3 upgrades instead of 1, but they take the same amount of time and money total to complete
<Pap>
Ah, ok I understand
<leudaimon>
s/that/what
<Qboid>
leudaimon meant to say: NathanKell|WORK, what are the current launch pad tiers now?
<Pap>
I think I assumed that it would take longer and cost more to upgrade
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah, yeah. I made sure it would not, when setting the stats Saturday. :)
<Pap>
I should have figured you would have thought of that ;)
<leudaimon>
and for avionics, you would still have to pay and have a higher mass of avionics to have a huge tonnage, so not much different from what we do without procedurals
<NathanKell|WORK>
(well, I think technically it costs 1000 more funds to do it, so maybe 3-5 days extra)
<egg>
!wpn NathanKell|WORK
* Qboid
gives NathanKell|WORK a Saturnian trihexaflexagon
<egg>
!wpn regex
* Qboid
gives regex a partially-ordered monad with a hydrofluorocarbon attachment
<NathanKell|WORK>
!ping egg
<egg>
!pong NathanKell|WORK
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: I think our RD-100 series may cost too much, btw
<Pap>
I notice that you thought it was very expensive yesterdaty
<NathanKell|WORK>
Oh, also, rsparkyc: Every probe core after and including the Early Controllable Core should have a science container module
<NathanKell|WORK>
If some do not that's my error :)
<rsparkyc>
ok, sounds good, it sounds like moving forward, the cores will be configurable
<NathanKell|WORK>
Also we should hook them up to use the stock science transfer ability, so no more need for ship manifest
<NathanKell|WORK>
cool!
<rsparkyc>
is it just a different module we need to add?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
the less mods necessary for the same behavior, the better :P
<leudaimon>
oh, there is a stock utility for that now?
<NathanKell|WORK>
nope, it's just flags in the container
<rsparkyc>
i know stock has a science return can
<NathanKell|WORK>
check the stock stack cores for the values
<rsparkyc>
will do
<NathanKell|WORK>
\o/
<NathanKell|WORK>
I wrote it, but I forget what the values are :P
<rsparkyc>
lol
<NathanKell|WORK>
8 months, man :D
<rsparkyc>
that'll do it
<NathanKell|WORK>
probably more like 9-10 since I wrote that actually
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah
<gazpachian>
also a couple thousand LOC to try to remember
<rsparkyc>
i can't remember half the stuff i wrote 3 months ago
<NathanKell|WORK>
I did get my feet wet by doing that preset thing, so I can no longer say I haven't touched mod source in 8 months :]
<rsparkyc>
i kinda wish i could work for squad, but 1) they probably don't pay what I make now, and 2) i don't speak spanish
<rsparkyc>
and 3) my guess is the culture is changing
<NathanKell|WORK>
It's...not exactly the job I would suggest unless you *very* much go in eyes-open. Also, even more so than usual, everything's up in the air due to the buyout I would think
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: well, I have some news about the RD-100
<leudaimon>
Man, this guesstimate I made for the procedurals is looking good... I got to the Saturn V tier, and went took at the actual weight of the saturn v instrument unit...
<rsparkyc>
leudiamon: awesome
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon: : WOOT
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: ?
<Pap>
leudaimon: you are the smartest Brazilian guy I know!
<regex>
Is he the only Brazilian guy you know?
<Pap>
^ that sounds accurate
<leudaimon>
it weights 2T, the node I'm configging can control 1400T per avionics Ton
<NathanKell|WORK>
There's always Felipe, guys.
<leudaimon>
lol, I'm probable the only non-soccer player brazilian you know
<Theysen>
i know JoseEduardo lol
<Pap>
I have no idea where the current value for the RD-100 (that I am using) came from
<leudaimon>
ah, I always forget Felipe is Brazilian, even though it's a very brazilian name
<Pap>
It is supposed to be 700 cheaper than it is
TM1978m has joined #RO
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Ah, coolz
<Pap>
It'll be fixed NathanKell|WORK
<NathanKell|WORK>
\o/
<NathanKell|WORK>
Also, what were your thoughts on the wings and the attitude jets? Think I missed the part of scrollback where all the tells fired
<Pap>
I really hope there are not a lot of issues like that, pulling everything out of the tree.yaml file, I thought went well, now I am worried!
<NathanKell|WORK>
Eh, we'll find 'em :)
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: I think you are right about the wings. They were originally one tier past Post War becuase we were essentailly pushing everything back one tier. That has pretty much changed now though, so those should move back to first node (only one most people will grab)
<Pap>
Also, the attitude jets I think are fine in the start as well. They aren't going to be game changing whether they are in there, or a node later
<NathanKell|WORK>
Cool. I'd say maybe unlock N2O later still, then, have only nitrogen at start?
<NathanKell|WORK>
gives more scope for progression
<NathanKell|WORK>
Also means we need a global patch to configure all generic RCS to start with nitrogen so it doesn't mistakenly unlock later propellants
<NathanKell|WORK>
Hit the latter bug in RiS
<NathanKell|WORK>
Also also we need to set the entrycost (in PARTUPGRADE) for all the engine upgrades to 0....
<NathanKell|WORK>
since otherwise players might mistakenly waste money on them (that's not hooked up to RF)
<NathanKell|WORK>
the RCS I'll take care of when I get home, I put that on the todo list
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap, I am for some reason unable to complete 'Reach Orbital Speed & Return Safely to Earth'. I have now flown two missions in a row, into a 210x250km orbit, then deorbited and landed safely via parachute. all the green hooks were ticked, except for 'return safely' .. are there any hidden requirements you sneakily put in there? :P
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: There is a strange bug with those PARTUPGRADES, they are all set to entryCost 0. However, they are showing as those crazy amounts in the Tech Tree
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
oh sorry, didn't see you were already busy. I'll come back later :)
<regex>
egg, will non-active vessels that dip into the atmosphere decay over time?
<Pap>
However, I do not think you can actually purchase them. Once the node is unlocked
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: what did you break?
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Weird
<Pap>
Why did you do that?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
:D
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Can I guess that possibly you detached a small part of your craft to return?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
no :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
the entire second stage minus fuel tank and engines
<Pap>
Very strange. And everything ticked except for the Return Home?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
yep
<blowfish>
I think if you set cost on A PARTUPGRADE it shows in the tech tree but doesn't actually do anything ("for display purposes only")
<blowfish>
but entryCost is what it actually takes to unlock the upgrade
<Bornholio>
Hyper* is a heatshield or something you ejected root part?
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: cheat yourself a successful completion. I have slightly modified the contract to move the Return Home part outside of the Vessel Parameter Group. That *should* fix the issue
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Root, as in, I start building with the avionics part, then a battery, RCS fuel tank, RCS thrusters, heat shield
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: ok. and now ELI5, pls :D
<blowfish>
Any word on when the Green Propellant Infusion Mission is supposed to happen? It was originally slated for 2017 but I don't see it scheduled.
<Pap>
Bascially, the VesselParameterGroup is a wrapper that causes all parameters inside of it to only be allowed to be completed by the vessel that achieved all of the other parameters. Many times, the return home parameter is placed outside of the VesselParameterGroup to hopefully avoid the issue you just mentioned
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
ah, I see. what do I need to change where? otherwise I'm just going to fail the contract, no biggie
<Theysen>
blowfish, re part upgrade: for proc parts it works "on display only", for SSTU stuff you need to click the tree agian in the R&D building and purchase the upgrade
<blowfish>
not sure about how specific mods interact with it, I was speaking about the stock behavior
<Theysen>
yeah I think SSTU tank upgrades are done via stock partupgrades or I wouldn't have mentioned that
<blowfish>
that is correct
<Bornholio>
still not seeing any Scansat missions in available , have radar and have done first lunar flyby
<Pap>
Bornholio: I did not include any, they are still offered by Scansat
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: If the return home is outside the VPG, then you can just place an object in orbit and put something else on the pad and the contract will complete, no?
<Bornholio>
pap they seem to be not firing in current release RO/Rp-0 for me. Still not running your branch
<Pap>
NathanKell|WORK: I added a completeInSequence = true, so technically, yes, but it requires the player to achieve orbit with the craft and then to do what you say. There isn't a clean way of doing it unfortunately
<NathanKell|WORK>
dang, ok
<Theysen>
Bornholio, you actually unlocked the part? :D
<Theysen>
I cant read
<Bornholio>
Its in my VAB, do i need to launch the first one before they start?, can't remember needing that before
<Pap>
No Bornholio, check your Difficulty settings, did the checkbox to deselect the SCANsat missions accidentally get set?
<Bornholio>
contract groups has both RP-0 and Scansat Official on
<Bornholio>
does it need something stock on with it?
<Pap>
My guess is that you have too many contracts currently offered right now, essentailly it could block out others from generating
<Bornholio>
ah, might make sense
<Bornholio>
have 22 RP-0 available
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, what does the SAS service level stand for in the cfg?
<rsparkyc>
exactly what it says
<rsparkyc>
:)
<rsparkyc>
SAS service level is a stock feature
<rsparkyc>
0 is only current position hold
<rsparkyc>
1 is prograde & retrograde
<rsparkyc>
with mechjeb, it's pretty useless
<leudaimon>
ah, so we should put things at higher levels, right?
<rsparkyc>
the higher, the better
<leudaimon>
yeah, no one uses stock sas, but I don't see why not using at least 1 for everything
<rsparkyc>
i know the nodes we had had them progressing, so i just tried to match that progression
<rsparkyc>
but, as I've always said, i generally defer to other people for the balancing aspect of things
<rsparkyc>
i just tried to provide the functionality with some proof-of-concept configs
<rsparkyc>
so i'm thrilled people are trying to better balance the nodes :)
blowfish has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
<Duncan>
so a probe can orbit straight through the atmosphere if it is not controlled, thats a vanilla bug I assume?
<egg>
regex: no
<egg>
regex: not yet at least :-p
<egg>
regex: and when we eventually get to implementing that things will decay even above KSP's official atmosphere
<egg>
(but that's a long, long, looooong way away)
<Bornholio>
duncan yes, above an altitude unloaded craft suffer no decay
<Duncan>
I will try not to exploit that
<NathanKell|WORK>
IIRC it's above 1kPa ?
<Bornholio>
you can put on an orbital decay mod, they will eventually come down
<NathanKell|WORK>
err, when pressure is above that, craft die
<Duncan>
I will just delete anything that realistically should not be there
<regex>
egg, that's awesome.
<regex>
So now that I've done Vanguard should I go for Thor, Atlas, or Juno next?
<regex>
Actually I've already got a Juno type, so Thor or Atlas?
<Bornholio>
Atlas!
<regex>
I kind of wonder how much of Atlas can be built procedurally and still look good though.
<Bornholio>
I think Most if you are using the short model altas engines, the long ones make it harder to shroud it
<regex>
Maybe I can make an "Atlas-esque" instead of a strict replica...
<regex>
I always end up making non-strict replicas anyway, my Vanguard had a full payload shroud
<Bornholio>
Thor would be a fast build to replicate though its nice and smooth
<leudaimon>
lol, somehow because of the way git is configured in this computer, the commits for proc avionics are comming with my real life profile
<regex>
Bornholio, yeah, Thor is one of my favorites and I do want to create an entire Delta line for this playthrough
<regex>
But I've never built an Atlas before so that's a good place to start
<Bornholio>
did you see my pictures from yesterday regex?
<regex>
No, are they in the thread?
<Bornholio>
put them in rokkers thread, i'll repost it
<Bornholio>
http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/122256-some-reference-photos-for-modellers/&page=2#comment-3096228 they are in an imgur album, nice one with atlas, thor and bluescout in the line
<regex>
Yeah, found 'em
<regex>
Oh man, I watched a documentary the other night and was pretty fascinating by the doors on the side of Atlas where the launch clamps attached.
<Bornholio>
tried to get some nice detail shots of verniers and riveting, greebles on them.
<regex>
NathanKell|WORK, huh, crazy. I'll have to see how the decoupling works there.
blowfish has joined #RO
<NathanKell|WORK>
Proc interstage with 1 node. Fairing side. Then place a single cubic octo on the topnode of the interstage. Then offset it out of the way of the thrust. Then manually build each side (proc tank for the cylinder bit, then proc interstage for the flared bit around the engine, engine on the proc interstage). You'll have to build one side, then manually clone it and rotate and position it on the other. Then place tanks above those cylinders for the pa
<NathanKell|WORK>
Sorry, actually don't attach the cubic octo to the node, surf attach it to the fairing side.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Then snap-offset it to somewhere you can attach other stuff to it
<NathanKell|WORK>
Like I said, a pain, but it works.
<NathanKell|WORK>
(mostly a pain because you can't use symmetry)
<regex>
Yeah, i don't know about that, lol
<regex>
But I'll probably try
<NathanKell|WORK>
The cheap version involves accepting the ring detaching in multiple parts. Then it's trivial
<regex>
So what you're saying is that the sides, then engine stuff, is attached to the cubic strut?
<NathanKell|WORK>
yep, which is itself attached to the fairing
<NathanKell|WORK>
that's why they all decouple together :)
<NathanKell|WORK>
Also make sure you set sideforce to 0 on that fairing side
<NathanKell|WORK>
err, set *all* force to zero is safest
<regex>
So the strut is atttached to the fairing? I think I'm going to have to try this.
<regex>
ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE
<NathanKell|WORK>
yep. And coolz :)
<regex>
Thanks!
<regex>
Also, MUH LEGOS
<Pap>
leudaimon: did you use the node names for the Tech Unlocks?
<egg>
<regex> egg, that's awesome. <<< a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way away :-p
<regex>
egg, sure man, you don't think I'm going anywhere, do you?
<regex>
I expect this channel to be around supporting NK's new game and Agathorn's new game and all the other crap we talk about for a loooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.
<Pap>
^ yay!
<egg>
regex: and kspacademia to be talking about random shit for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time too :-p
<leudaimon>
yep Pap, just how it was in the original file
<regex>
Heh
<Pap>
NathanKell* I know there is an RP0 channel (that no one goes to anymore) Can we get the PR's commits and pushes from RP-0 to be added here like they are for RO already?
<Bornholio>
Rokker got them all a short description, atleast vehicle name minimum. Wish i had more detail on the atlas they have but they don't post a panel for it.
<Pap>
leudaimon: those will be added with the code you used, thanks
<leudaimon>
ah cool
<leudaimon>
I don't have a ksp install at hand to test the cfgs... but think it should be working in a basic state at least
<soundnfury>
regex: clearly I need to shoehorn some rockets into my game so that people will talk about it in #RO
<Qboid>
soundnfury: rsparkyc left a message for you in #RO [19.06.2017 13:23:48]: "did you have any issues with the First Orbital Flight (Crewed) contract being completed before you actually launched someone into orbit?"
<soundnfury>
rsparkyc: I can't remember. I might have done something haxxy to prevent it completing, but I don't recall what
<Rokker>
Bornholio: im reading Atlas A on this one site but that cant be right at all
<Rokker>
huh
<Rokker>
it is
<Rokker>
but its configured as a D
<Rokker>
so they stuck a sustainer on it
<soundnfury>
Pap: just be in #rp0, not hard :P
<Rokker>
also wtf
<Rokker>
the Atlas that was in canada that got destroyed was an A
<Bornholio>
well i'm no expert, but the bottom end is chopped up and reinforced so the engines are just nozzles attached to the added interior structure.
<Bornholio>
plus no LR-101's
<Rokker>
Bornholio: ew
<Bornholio>
we had 70mph winds on saturday, believe me that is a good thing
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
Pap: sorry, the file you sent doesn't make a difference. all requirements except the safe landing are met, then when reentry slows the craft down, the 6500m/s requirement turns un-met :/
<Pap>
Hypergolic_Skunk: I need you to land the craft above 6500 m/s :)
<Pap>
That will do it (he says with no confidence at all)
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
let me try
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Sorry missed your message. I actually don't know how channel integration works, really. We seem to get, like, CKAN messages here (and principia messages) so we should be able to get RP-0 messages.
<NathanKell|WORK>
egg: ?
<NathanKell|WORK>
you know how?
<Pap>
You are a better guinea pig than a skunk Hypergolic_Skunk
Hypergolic_Skunk is now known as Hypergolic_Guinea_Pig
<Hypergolic_Guinea_Pig>
sometimes I dream of the initial launch site in RP-0 to be Peenemünde, with contracts that ask for.. well, suborbital trajectories ending in England :p
<gazpachian>
that's dark, man
<Pap>
I mean, for real
<Hypergolic_Guinea_Pig>
for science!
<Hypergolic_Guinea_Pig>
:>
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: what is thy question?
<gazpachian>
it doesn't exactly help that you speak German, hyper! :P
<Hypergolic_Guinea_Pig>
everybody's done it in other games, such as HoI 4, Red Alert, etc. - and history is history. the entire US Space History is based on this dark part of history, lest you forget :p
<Hypergolic_Guinea_Pig>
but no, I don't suppose it's strictly necessary
<Bornholio>
most early rockets are nuclear death machines
<Bornholio>
my personal favorite
<Pap>
The first contract pack I ever wrote had a mission to launch a rocket and have it impact a randomly generated waypoint that was generated
<Hypergolic_Guinea_Pig>
now we're talking :D
xShadowx has joined #RO
<Pap>
s/ that was generated/
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: The first contract pack I ever wrote had a mission to launch a rocket and have it impact a randomly generated waypoint
<Hypergolic_Guinea_Pig>
maybe tie the reward to how far from the waypoint you actually land?
<NathanKell|WORK>
egg: github integration with IRC
<NathanKell|WORK>
egg: Pap was asking for RP-0 commits etc to end up in this channel rather than RP-0
<NathanKell|WORK>
err, #rp0
<NathanKell|WORK>
since, well, no one goes there
<Hypergolic_Guinea_Pig>
Pap: just finished loading KSP. going to do try to fullfil the contract again now
regex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
regex has joined #RO
<Pap>
NathanKell* the EVA requirements for the astronaut complex are not going to change, correct?
<Pap>
^ I mean they will open after the first unlock?
Theysen has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<egg>
NathanKell|WORK: ah, there's a setting somewhere on github I think? it's hard to find
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ah, I didn't know if there was something we had to do for multiple repos in one channel
<blowfish>
repository -> settings -> integrations and services -> add service -> IRC
<NathanKell|WORK>
I know how to set it up if it's the same as always
<NathanKell|WORK>
yeah
<NathanKell|WORK>
Didn't know if there was something special for multiple-in-one, but I guess I was thinking of Qboid
<Bornholio>
it is a pain to get a pressure sensor and tmermometer that are overlapping to both read. Adds to Proc avionics wishlist.
<leudaimon>
Add togglebles for experiments, in probe cores only, might be nice Bornholio. It would have to add mass and cost besides the experiment module...
<leudaimon>
create a issue at rp-0 and tag rsparkyc, he may be interested
<Bornholio>
i'll do once i find at least the start of an answer, since i've not looked at Prcs and how hard they are to modify
<leudaimon>
we were discussing earlier about making the science compartment module a toggleable... this is probably similar
<NathanKell|WORK>
Pap: Integration retargeted
<Pap>
Thanks NathanKell* my lazy self has one less thing to check for :)
<soundnfury>
NathanKell|WORK: well, there aren't any launch site targets per se yet, but there _is_ Peenemünde yes
<leudaimon>
NathanKell|WORK, you are not using proc aviomics in your test playthrough, are you?
<Pap>
leudaimon: why are you stuck on a potato computer?
<leudaimon>
I came to my parents city, which is a capital, to apply for a Visa
<Pap>
Ah, I understand, well good luck!
<leudaimon>
then I'm on my laptop, that is completing 7 years now
<Pap>
Damn, how's Windows 95 running?
<leudaimon>
lol, I'm on linux, but I can't complain, never had to change any hardware from it
<leudaimon>
for about 3 years use it only when on the move and to take to classes for powerpoint/etc
<Pap>
gotcha
<leudaimon>
if this internship at the czech republic I'm applying for really happens I will have to buy a decent notebook there, no way I can take my desktop
rsparkyc has joined #RO
rsparkyc has quit [Client Quit]
<NathanKell|WORK>
leudaimon: I'm not, no. For now keeping the variables low
<leudaimon>
lol, ok... I ask because I created a set of configs for all levels, would be nice to know if it's balanced
<NathanKell|WORK>
Ya, I'm just trying to minimize factors other than the tree :]
<leudaimon>
sure, definitely makes sense
zilti1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<regex>
I've been using them, seem fine.
zilti1 has joined #RO
<regex>
Haven't really compared them against the non-procs since most U.S. rockets are constrained more by their engines than anything else.
<Hypergolic_Guinea_Pig>
Pap: seems fixed now, thank you :)
<Pap>
Great!
<leudaimon>
regex, I made a PR in rp0#703, if you wanna test them rebalanced for all tech levels
<Qboid>
[#703] title: Proc avionics tech levels, per #701 | I still have some issues with a few details, especially unlock costs. Suggestions are welcome. | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/703
<regex>
Cool, I'll grab that tonight. Not using costs, FYI, science mode, but they seem alright ATM for the unlock node.
<leudaimon>
nice
<regex>
Oh perfect, I was hoping that was for Pap's tree.
<leudaimon>
yeah, it is
<Pap>
NathanKell*: do you know how / why the flying altitudes were selected for Venus, Mars, Jupiter, etc?
<blowfish>
NathanKell|WORK: Crzyrndm might be the one to talk to about B9 p-wings issues
<blowfish>
probably some issue in the implementation of IPartSizeModifier
<blowfish>
(or a bug in how KSP interprets it)
<leudaimon>
for Jupiter they should be just symbolic, right?
<Pap>
well, that is what I am trying to determine leudaimon
<leudaimon>
I can't imagine how you would manage to get into the low atmosphere there...
<Pap>
I am going to be modifying the atmosphere probe contracts because they are too easy right now. Currently, Jupiter has an atmospehre of 15,550km
<leudaimon>
how deep did the galileo probe dive still functional?
<Pap>
Nope, that is 1,550 km
<Pap>
The Galileo probe made it to 1,454 km
<leudaimon>
so it entered 46km?
<Pap>
96km
<leudaimon>
oh, of course
<Pap>
And it was experienceing more than 23 times Earth atmosphere
<leudaimon>
lol
<Pap>
alright, I'm off for a while
Pap is now known as Pap|AFK
<leudaimon>
I think low atmo does not make sense there... impossible to separate the surface from the atmosphere. One thing that should work in all planets is to set a minimum entry, like 30km...
<leudaimon>
or some different number for each body, low enough that you have to worry about reentry, high enough it is not a landing
<Pap|AFK>
^ yep, going to be doing that
<leudaimon>
should be easy, because where atmosphere is thick you can set it relatively high, and it's still dangerous to burn up; where it is thin, a low perigee does not guarantee you can manage to land
<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQffz