<Bornholio>
why stuck on ground with V-2 (rocket made with all a-4 parts) 264kn thrust, no movement
<Hohman>
any tweakscale?
<Bornholio>
nope
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<rsparkyc>
o/
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [20.06.2017 01:31:40]: "I did not"
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [20.06.2017 01:32:33]: "wait no. I don't know. Because I accepted and immediately force-completed it, because I had thought I had had it and it disappeared, but it turned out I never had it. So I don't know whether it would have bugged for me."
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [20.06.2017 04:42:30]: "I had to cheat-complete the comsat contract because CC was not properly detecting coverage. Hopefully that's ok. I did save beforehand in case you object, and am gonna be looking into the code as to why it wasn't detecting it properly."
<rsparkyc>
!tell NathanKell force completing contracts is ok in my book if CC is bugging out
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<rsparkyc>
!tell NathanKell i'm probably going to try to do that later
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
leudaimon: I never know how much I need to spin up in order to keep control, I probably always spin up too fast, that's my issue
<Pap>
o/ rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
o/
<rsparkyc>
so i'm probably going to have limited availability coming up
<rsparkyc>
we found out today that my brother took his life last night
<Pap>
oh shit, I am very sorry to hear that rsparkyc. You have my condolences
<rsparkyc>
thanks
<rsparkyc>
it was pretty random
<rsparkyc>
it's all still sinking in
<rsparkyc>
might launch some rockets as a distraction
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<Pap>
rsparkyc: that is a good way to lose your mind for a little while
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-BDBApollo: https://git.io/vQU93
<Qboid>
NathanKell: lamont left a message for you in #RO [20.06.2017 17:01:15]: "you might want to try giving https://github.com/lamont-granquist/MechJeb2/releases/tag/710-testing a shot, it doesn’t have any sexy ascent guidance code in it, but me and Bornholio have tested it reasonably well enough now"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: leudaimon left a message for you in #RO [20.06.2017 18:42:00]: "Didn't see your stream in full, so don't know exacly what you are talking about, but I know you wouldn't force-complete anything to cheat, so please go ahead."
<Qboid>
NathanKell: rsparkyc left a message for you in #RO [21.06.2017 00:20:04]: "force completing contracts is ok in my book if CC is bugging out"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: rsparkyc left a message for you in #RO [21.06.2017 00:20:15]: "i'm probably going to try to do that later"
<NathanKell>
rsparkyc: Wow. I am so, so sorry :(((
<NathanKell>
Condolences to you all, and best wishes
<rsparkyc>
thanks NathanKell
<Pap>
NathanKell: I am configuring the SSTU Space Shuttle and they have 3 integrated RS-25 engines
<Pap>
%engineTypeMult = 3 <----- is that the correct syntax?
<NathanKell>
I think so...
<NathanKell>
do we have any engines that use that?
<NathanKell>
Maybe the Baby Sergeant clusters?
<Pap>
yep, they do!
<NathanKell>
Think I'm gonna warm up by TTTing
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<taniwha>
rsparkyc: that't terrible
<leudaimon>
rsparkyc, my condolences! That's so terrible...
<rsparkyc>
thanks everyone
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<Agathorn|Food>
NathanKell is so distracting
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<Agathorn>
but no..close the tab.. get to work
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<ferram4>
NathanKell|Twitch, what hydrolox issue? I think I missed it.
NathanKell|Twitch is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Heavy Orbital Rocketry makes either KSP or KCT throw on unlock, preventing it from allowing me to unlock its associated hydrolox node
<NathanKell>
same for Mature
<NathanKell>
gonna work around by removing prereqs from hydrolox and unlocking, then re-adding the prereqs
<Bornholio>
having worked on b52's i'm having trouble with your perspective :P
<Bornholio>
that crawl tube must have been torture
<Bornholio>
was looking at it on sunday, little windows into the bombbay
<Rokker>
Pap: they got the bomb bay open at the museum
<Qboid>
Rokker: dnsmcbr left a message for you in #SpaceX [21.06.2017 12:24:44]: "we're getting an air ambulance, a Scout and a Sioux landing on our field tomorrow."
<Rokker>
so you can crawl under and see
<Rokker>
well, walk under, but crawl sounds cooler
<Bornholio>
my son was scared of the bomb bay had to convince him it was safe
<Pap>
lol Bornholio
<Rokker>
Bornholio: it's not safe, the bomb bay is where the gremlins live
<Pap>
That is a period of American aviation that I know very little about from the end of WWII until about Vietnam
<Rokker>
Pap: wellllll
<Rokker>
there's a place you can learn bout this
<Pap>
If it is in Dayton, I am going to block you from my IRC ;)
<Rokker>
Pap: warner robins in georgia
<Pap>
:)
<Rokker>
altho more seriously, don't go there
<Rokker>
don't reinforce their treatment of planes
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] PhineasFreak opened pull request #1688: CommNet Communotron 16 range fix (master...RO-Squad-CommNet-Comm16-Range) https://git.io/vQTQN
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<Bornholio>
<---still trying to figure out who PhineasFreak is on IRC/Forums
<Bornholio>
Rokker you are correct, cause only bomb loaders should be in there and they are Gremlins. Booze drinking gremlins who fondle nuclear weapons for kicks.
<Rokker>
Bornholio: I gotta say the most surprising thing to me when I first went in to the peacekeeper bomb bay was that it was fitted for a load of conventional bombs as well, which seemed absurd
<Rokker>
because the peacekeeper would have been a god awful conventional bomber
<Rokker>
peacemaker*
<Pap>
Bornholio: he is not on IRC, I have asked him before and he said he doesn't really have the time to be in here
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<Pap>
On the forums he goes by the pseudonym Phineas Freak
<Pap>
just to throw you off his trail
* Rokker
whispers dayton to Pap
<Bornholio>
Okay, i thought my search/google FU was stronger than that
<Bornholio>
well it did get the "Win" for travel locations , landers, plus enough fuel to do things instead of flyby.
<Rokker>
Pap: 75 years
<Rokker>
so they are unveiling her
<Pap>
Nice, I don't need to be there for the hoopla, but aiming for a 2018 summer visit should be able to be arranged
<Rokker>
0/10
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<Bornholio>
Hi Starwaster
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<Bornholio>
Pap i can't get teh V-2 to launch in my branch testing, Neither the skelton A-4 engine or the Shrouded A-4 work. They give me no dV or TWR in MJ windows and don't take off.
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<Pap>
Bornholio: that doesn't make any sense at all. NK and I have been using them without any issues at all!
<Pap>
Fire Drill at work, no one be alarmed, we all escaped safely
<Bornholio>
lol
<Bornholio>
yeah i know, I had weirdness a long time ago like this that involved reinstalling realplum configs. not sure what it is this time.
<Bornholio>
yummy real plums
<Pap>
real plums are good
<Pap>
RO installs are always and adventure
<Pap>
s/and/an
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: RO installs are always an adventure
<Agathorn>
did you forget to put gas in the tank? :) Not that i've *ever* done that before
<Bornholio>
no thetanks default with the correct fuels, but wondering if a problem involved that i used a proc tank and filled it also
<leudaimon|work>
o/ Pap
<Pap>
o/ leudaimon|Work
Agathorn is now known as Agathorn|Work
<leudaimon|work>
Pap, do you have any idea for a fix for the communications network contract after NK's suggestions?
<Pap>
Bornholio: if you used the Taerobee tanks, the top nose tank only has one kind of fuel, the mid section has two, and the engine contains the HTP
<leudaimon|work>
I'm considering taking one of those, but would like to have it fixed before
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: I don't think it is a fix I can make, I am going to ask nightingale about it since I think it is a CC issue, but I know that NK was going to look at the RT code to see what the issue might be
<Pap>
NK thinks it might have to do with CC not recognizing the fact that RO increases the length of the antennas by 10x, but I don't think he has looked at it yet
<leudaimon|work>
ah, ok... and about the removal of the requirement for direct communication between the sats?
<Bornholio>
Thats a UASF requirement! must transmit if ground stations are damaged :P
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: that is one place that I disagree with NK on, I think it makes sense for the sats to communicate with each other. I will ask his opinion on leaving it in there
<Bornholio>
he should have had omni's on those sats he is just bitter :)
<leudaimon|work>
The issue with that in the current way RT works is that then you need two dishes in the sat
<leudaimon|work>
4Mm is too short for intersat comm Bornholio
<Pap>
Correct, but, the contract pays out a lot of money. The thought was that it needed to be a pretty substantial satelitte system, not something that only had one dish on it
<leudaimon|work>
hum, I see
<Pap>
I "think" that if you did 4 satellites you can use C16's only, let me do some math
<leudaimon|work>
Before taking one of those contracts, I'll also try to find out at which altitude you can use the basic dish for relay into a sat in LEO with a 4Mm omni
<leudaimon|work>
that's the main application of such a network
<Bornholio>
multiple Omnis, like 16! thats what i do for coverage
<Pap>
Bornholio: do you play with the multiple antennas contribute to the range option in RT, or is that built into RO?
<leudaimon|work>
do you know how exactly multiple antennas work regarding to range?
<Bornholio>
thats a RO config value i think
<Bornholio>
LML
<Pap>
<-------- :O had no idea, would have saved me some pain
<leudaimon|work>
basically, you sum the ranges of all omnis in you craft
<Pap>
Ah, nice
<leudaimon|work>
so now I can do some maths
<leudaimon|work>
the basic dish is 50Mm, right?
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: in case you are wondering, you cannot make a satellite network with only 4 satellites that communicates with each other and has coverage of the Earth unless you have at least 4 Communotron 16's on board
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: would you like the antenna calculator I have?
<Bornholio>
Commu 16 reach the moon...
<Bornholio>
KR-7 are 75Mm base range
<Pap>
Bornholio: but can only communicate with other Communo16 within 4000 km
<Pap>
Or am I wrong on that?
<leudaimon|work>
I think you are wrong Pap
<Pap>
^ that is likely
<Bornholio>
Root model, should be double
<leudaimon|work>
it's 4Mm + srqrt(4*75)
<leudaimon|work>
assuming you have a dish and a communo16
<Pap>
How does the dish work though? Don't I have to point the dish at the satellite in order to get the bonus?
<Pap>
I really need to understand this so I can plan my satellites!
<Bornholio>
yes, a comsat sould have 1+2+1 dishes (Groundlink, Satlinks, active craft)
<leudaimon|work>
What I usually do is to have sats with dishes in high orbit, an omni communicating with the ground, and a dish pointed at the active vessel
<Bornholio>
or enough Omni's for groundlink and or Satlink can replace some dishes
<leudaimon|work>
a comm16 allows for communication to the ground
<Pap>
Ah, but you can get away with not doing that, now that I understand the root model, 2 Communotron 16 on each craft will allow you to have an orbit of 4 sateliites between 2638.95 km and 4,942.71 km and they will be able to communicate with each other
<leudaimon|work>
and that is why there is no need for intersat comm, if all your satellites are connected to the ground, there is no need for intersat comm
<Bornholio>
except in reality they do have interlink
<Bornholio>
the early networks are military ones and it was a basic requirement for them
<leudaimon|work>
oh really?
<Pap>
In case you are wondering, you would need 8 Communotron 16's on each satellite in order to have 4 satellites communicate at GEO
<Pap>
That is why the early contract only calls for a minimum orbit, which for 4 satellites is 2,638.95km to be able to see each other
<leudaimon|work>
yeah, I might go for realism and use two dishes in each, go for 20Mm of altitude
<leudaimon|work>
at this altitude, I can communicate with a cratf in LEO with a single comm16
<Pap>
yes
<leudaimon|work>
and with 4 sats, I can even use an inclined orbit and get coverage of high latitudes
<Bornholio>
that one is kerbin system unfortunately
<leudaimon|work>
in settings you can change it to RSS
<Bornholio>
ooh never noticed that before, yeah for Ryopops
<Bornholio>
Should put a link & instructions in our wiki that explains the ranges. BRB
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<Pap>
Born|toWork: you seem to have a good handle on this, can you explain how it works with the ground station range as well?
<Pap>
sorry, just saw that you are working
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<Born|toWork>
back for a bit, the rt guys know it inside and out, but the ground statiosn just act as larger antennas
<Maxsimal>
Hey guys. Does a spreadsheet already exist anywhere of all the RO engine stats, or is that only stored in the configs?
<Born|toWork>
so the root model gives huge ranges becasue the grounds station can bot listen with higher sensitivity, adn transmit with much greater power
<Maxsimal>
Isn't that the expected behaviour Born?
<Born|toWork>
yes, just trying to explain because of contract requirement understanding
<Born|toWork>
but coverage % is not something i understand. think NK was off to talk shop with RT guys because of that
<Born|toWork>
Maxsimal look in Pap 's Github RP-0 branch
<Maxsimal>
Ok looking there
<Born|toWork>
ah techtree on
<Born|toWork>
dang thought is saw one there.
<regex>
Maxsimal probably not.
<regex>
That might be something worth doing though.
<regex>
You know any command line or perl scripting?
<Maxsimal>
Ok no worries. :) Gotta run a bit, but I'll see about manually generating one, or doin it with a script. Have an idea how to deal with my SRB costing thing in a broader way, may turn into my own first mod.
<Maxsimal>
Been ages since I've done any sort of regex scripting, but I can always try to relearn :)
<regex>
I think there isn't a sheet because a lot of people go from memory and historical enthusiasm
<Rounan>
Hey guys, I had a question about the AJ10-37 (mid) engine, unlocked in basic orbital rocketry I think
<regex>
but a sheet would still be helpful
<regex>
shoot
<Rounan>
there's an upgrade to this engine that specifies unl. ignitions. The AJ10-37 (early) specifies 1 ignition.
<Rounan>
But the base part for AJ10-37 (mid) has no information about ignitions
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<Born|toWork>
pump fed, unlimited ignitions
<regex>
Rounan IIRC the base model AJ10 has 1 ignition
<regex>
You need to unlock more ignitions further in the tech tree
<regex>
or rather, better models of the engine
<Rounan>
Huh. weird. I have definitely re-lit this engine after shutdown
<Rounan>
but only after it's been off for <1min
<Rounan>
if I have a longer gap to circularization and I warp, I can never get it to relight
<Born|toWork>
regex pretty sure the AJ10 Series (Mid) is one that isn't limited by ullage or ignitions
<Rounan>
both (early) and (mid) are pressure-fed in that they don't seem to need ullage
<Born|toWork>
%ignitions = 0 // "could relight effectively unlimited times" via pdf from Raidernick
<regex>
vOv I usually ditch those engines after I get something with better isp
<regex>
I only know the earliest ones
<Born|toWork>
lol yeah
<regex>
it is, in fact, pressure fed
<Rounan>
regex: Heh, yeah I'm on that plan too. I just need to make Mun orbit to get enough science for that!
<Born|toWork>
Rounan either use a waggle with RCS, or a longer ullage burn if the tank pressure is low
<Rounan>
My propellant can be "very stable", but the stage won't re-light
<regex>
Always bring up the menu for the engine before trying a relight, you can see fuel status
<regex>
There should be an entry for ignitions
<Born|toWork>
no pressure, are all your tanks pressurized
<regex>
^^^
<Rounan>
I know, right! There should! And for every other engine I've chacked there is an entry for ignitions.
<regex>
Fuselage or service module
<Rounan>
yes, engine only works with pressurized tanks; my problem isn't getting the engine to work
<Rounan>
100% success on the first ignition.
<regex>
What specific model is it?
<Born|toWork>
yes full tanks.
<Rounan>
AJ10-37 (mid), I'm pretty sure
<Rounan>
it's got a 5min rated burn
<regex>
Even pressurized tanks require ullage. The engine will specifically say "no ullage" if it doesn't require that
<Rounan>
(at work so I can't check atm)
<regex>
KK
<Born|toWork>
%ullage = True
<Rounan>
right, OK. I have RCS for ullage and I'm pretty sure that with propellant "very stable" I have failed to relight the stage
<Rounan>
is there anything else I need to check for, or is the expected behaviour that it should relight after an ullage burn to "very stable" propellant?
<regex>
vOv Check for RT connection? until you're in front of the game we're just spitballing and likely frustrating you.
<Rounan>
no no, I appreciate the feedback!
<regex>
That sounds correct
<Born|toWork>
but red border on engine icon
<Rounan>
I'm just trying to confirm all the boxes I shoudl tick before filing a bug report, and ruling out the most likely thing, which is that I'm missing something.
<regex>
Sure, thanks for that, BTW/
<Rounan>
OK, I'll try to repro tongiht and provide more info either way.
<Rounan>
thanks gang!
<regex>
Sounds like a plan
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<leudaimon|work>
Rounan, IIRC the AJ-10 (mid) is the AJ-10 104D. Maybe you got the wrong engine?
<Theysen>
I am flying the AJ-10 (MID) at this vessel right at this moment and in fact it can be relit forever
<Qboid>
Theysen: acc left a message for you in #RO [20.06.2017 22:19:49]: "the game looks nice. not GTA, but enjoyable"
<leudaimon|work>
the AJ-10 37 is the early one, non-reastartable
<Pap>
I got it Born|toWork, so it is still using the same formula, just that the ground stations are Extra long range antennas, makes sense, thank you
<Rounan>
leudaimon: Yes, I'm using the AJ-10 series (mid) part, and the first unlock corresponds to the AJ-10 104D. I haven't unlocked the 118E yet.
<leudaimon|work>
Rounan: yeah, so you must have some other issue... I've used this engine for multiple restarts a lot. Could it have failed (if are you using TF)?
<leudaimon|work>
Born|toWork: are you aware of any tool similar to the one you shared that allows different inclinations and some way to visualize orbital planes?
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<Born|toWork>
i keep a picture of the angles on my desktop, let me look
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<Rounan>
leudaimon: I'll double-check tonight. It may be something "sticky" about the failed start - I know I've tried to stabilize propellant and it's failed to light, but this may not have been the first re-light attempt
<Rounan>
Could still just be user error; I'll look into it.
<Rounan>
I'm also using MJ to fly the ascent, and I have observed that MJ sometimes has no trouble relighting while I can't do the same manually.... so there's a wrinkle that may be something or may be nothing. More to come.
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: there was something posted in the forums a while back about creations in MatLab, let me see if I can find it
<leudaimon|work>
I have a picture in my mind of something that might give higher coverage than everything on the equator, would like to visualize it orbiting to make sure
<Born|toWork>
oh, like that , not off the top of my head
<regex>
Are you guys talking about like, moon transfers from higher latitudes?
<regex>
I've always wondered how to figure that out
<Born|toWork>
equator is not the best for coverage you are right, perfect coverage is 9 sats three sets of three in polar orbit each 120deg around equator
<Born|toWork>
other more efficient solutions are out there
<Born|toWork>
but equatorial sats are good because they don't move, so easy to aim ground antennas at
<leudaimon|work>
yeap Born|toWork, as antenna direction doesn't matter in ksp I'm thinking about something that gives the maximum possible coverage with 4 sats
<Pap>
^ I know nothing about this and have never used it
<Pap>
Be back in a minute
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<Born|toWork>
four arctic orbits one over north/east north south /east and south west so you get polar coverage and almost all the rest of the planet, but altitude varies so coverage can be spotty for short times
<Born|toWork>
said badly
<leudaimon|work>
cool Born|toWork that's mostly what I had in mind
<Born|toWork>
sorry tundra orbit
<Born|toWork>
alternately it could be a fourway set of molniya orbits i think
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<Born|toWork>
the problem is the varying altitude
<Born|toWork>
that link pap tossed looks pretty interesting
<leudaimon|work>
Born|toWork: my idea was to use circular orbits
<leudaimon|work>
couldn't grasp very well the tool in Pap's link
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<leudaimon|work>
my idea is to have two pairs in perpendicular orbital planes, with an inclination of 60º or something like that...
<Pap>
leudaimon|Work: I know you are at work, but if you can fire up KSP, You could Hyperedit two crafts to those locations to see
<Born|toWork>
so what i would do before is just use the orbit cheat and plop them down to see what it looks like KSP is the viaualization tool you need :P
<Born|toWork>
lol ninja
<Pap>
^^ this guy is too slow lol
<leudaimon|work>
lol, I might do that when I'm home...
<leudaimon|work>
my main concern is about the position of the sats in different planes
<regex>
What's that science mod that NK was using, Science Here And Now or something?
<Agathorn|Work>
My Saturn V was just delivered to my apartment
<stratochief>
"some assembly required"
<stratochief>
1969 pieces, IIRC?
<Agathorn|Work>
yeah
<lamont>
regex: xScience
<Agathorn|Work>
hopefully I can sneak home during lunch and gander at it :)
<regex>
Oh yeah? I thought that was just a checklist, cool
<lamont>
it grew another button on the toolbar that does here+now
<regex>
Thanks
<Born|toWork>
i use it with AutomatedScienceSampler
<Pap>
o/ stratochief
<Pap>
I read an article today that British scientists have figured out how to slow down loose electronics in a fusion reactor, is that a big deal?
<Agathorn|Work>
duct tape?
<Agathorn|Work>
I mean if you ave loose electronics, best to tape them down so they arne't lose anymore
<Agathorn|Work>
or did you maybe mean loose electrons? :D
<Pap>
s/electronics/electrons
<Qboid>
Pap meant to say: I read an article today that British scientists have figured out how to slow down loose electrons in a fusion reactor, is that a big deal?
<Pap>
lol
<Born|toWork>
electrons, yes it would increase the fusion rate
<Pap>
but yes, in the other sense Agathorn|Work, you would be correct
<Pap>
Steam Summer sale officially starts tomrrow BTW
<Agathorn|Work>
officially or officially according to PayPal
<Pap>
both
<Pap>
It was confirmed
<Agathorn|Work>
ahh didn't know it had been confirmed
<stratochief>
Pap: hard to tell if that is useful for sooner practical fusion, until someone runs the hard numbers of tries it in one of the leading test reactors
<Pap>
They just need to tell us what game NathanKell is working on so we can start bothering him about it
<Pap>
Thanks stratochief, I always ask you whether or not I should be interested in these things
<stratochief>
Pap: as a "yay, basic general research!" sort of way. the serious advances in energy tech are few and far between, like 1 per field per decade
<Agathorn|Work>
depressing
<stratochief>
or, slow, steady, and obvious like the gradual decline in solar panel cost and rapid installation of solar & wind
<stratochief>
Agathorn|Work: nah, not depressing. it just takes a lot of small elements to find a set that work particularly well together to make a breakthrough
<Agathorn|Work>
I dont' really care why it is, its still depressing :)
<stratochief>
applying modern superconductors in a 50-200 mill fusion testbed will be a serious breakthrough IMO, that should occur in the next 5-10 years
<stratochief>
the construction of tesla battery factories is a 'breakthrough' of a sort, bringing existing demo'd battery tech near its minimum possible cost, which was a ~4x drop in price nearly 5 year sooner than had previously been predicted
<Pap>
What is the next step for computing power is my question, was just reading up on how microprocessors have gotten so small that they are getting closed to quantum range. We are not really close to figuring that technology out yet, are we?
<stratochief>
Agathorn|Work: my solution to the 'depressing' feel there is that I pay attention to 10+ fields, so I get at least one serious breakthrough per year :)
<Pap>
stratochief: what is the next evolution of the battery though? Lithium batteries are getting to the point of maximum effectiveness, are they not?
<Agathorn|Work>
could make them blow up better
<Agathorn|Work>
or maybe not..they do that pretty well on their own
<stratochief>
Pap: yeah, exactly. possibly lithium air, or zinc air or something. it will take a boost in research and 5-10 years to determine which tech will be the next breakthrough of density and/or cost
<stratochief>
Pap: there are small quantum computers, which may be useful for cracking crypto problem in the next 10-15 years. but there are a lot of potentially near breakthroughs in computing. ie. graphine based computers, or optical computing
<Pap>
Very interesting, I love talking to smart, well-informed people
<Pap>
Graphene is still crazy expensive to create, am I right?
<stratochief>
I have two friends, one who has worked on graphene quantum dots, another who worked in optical computer component research :)
<Born|toWork>
not as bad as it used to by by factor of over 50
<stratochief>
Pap: getting cheaper, easier. depends what property you are optimizing for, but cheaper and more readily available all the time due to gradual lab and fab advancements
<Pap>
ok, now the question is, who owns the graphene patents, and can I buy their stock?
<stratochief>
Pap: lol. well, lots of different small companies or unis. but just because something is 'graphene' doesn't make it a total profit maker. "Ora sound is making novel graphene based headphones!"
<Pap>
Yep, that isn't who I want to invest in :)
<stratochief>
for my graphene friend's research, pulling it off pencil graphite with tape was sufficient for preliminary tests, so not crazy expensive to 'make' in that instance :P
<Pap>
wow
<Pap>
I have probably done that before
<Rokker>
stratochief: hi
<stratochief>
o/ Rokker
<Pap>
Rokker: back to back launches this weekend, gonna happen?
<Rokker>
stratochief: wanna k or another good reason you should stop by dayton this summer
<Agathorn|Work>
"US Carrier to sell only iPhones" -- What does it say about me that I thought that meant the store on an Aircraft Carrier?
<Rokker>
Pap: I unno, might
<stratochief>
Rokker: plane reasons, or rocket reasons?
<Rokker>
Agathorn|Work: that ur a fucking navy shill
<Agathorn|Work>
lol no I was in the Air Force
<Rokker>
stratochief: to make pap jelly
<Rokker>
Agathorn|Work: N A V Y S H I L L
<Rokker>
Agathorn|Work: where were you again
<stratochief>
how does one make a pap jelly? put pap through a food processor
<Agathorn|Work>
Hurlburt Field mostly.. SOC
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<Born|toWork>
hold off further pap jokes.... must hold off
<Pap>
stratochief: it requires a mortar and pestle, nothing easy here
* stratochief
starts to sing "In the Navy" by the Village People to Agathorn
<Rokker>
Agathorn|Work: ah, the most boring florida USAF installation
<stratochief>
Pap: lots of 'breakthroughs' gradually filter into industry. look how long it took carbon fibre to work its way into the mainstream. rocket tanks, airplane fusalages
<Rokker>
Agathorn|Work: :P
<Pap>
Yeah, that is very true stratochief
<stratochief>
first, discover it. then, fuck with it to determine possible properties. then, make it cheap, then make it cheap And consistent. then, test long-term properties in a mind-bottling range of circumstances, then...
<Rokker>
Agathorn|Work: my first RA in college supposedly went to work at SOC
<Agathorn|Work>
Rokker: at least we did real stuff rather than just train
<Agathorn|Work>
All Eglin does is look pretty :)
<Agathorn|Work>
though they do that well
<Rokker>
Agathorn|Work: hey
<Rokker>
Agathorn|Work: they make a good MOAB test range
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<stratochief>
both the US or EU could have already made a breakthrough in fusion in past 5-10 years, if US didn't waste money in the NIF, and the EU hadn't stuck with ITER after fiddling its thumbs on it for nearly 30 years
<Rokker>
Agathorn|Work: ever been to warner robins
<leudaimon|work>
cool stratochief! I think this kind of biofuel has much more potential than sugarcane or corn, and problably a GM in a contained tank is less of a risk of contamination than a crop
<stratochief>
leudaimon|Work: corn fuel is an abomination. sugarcane is on balance fairly good, but very limited in how much can be grown, plus it competes with human food cropland. second gen biofuel like switchgrass, other cellulose fuels are promising, as well as algae
<stratochief>
although with current tech, cellulose is best fermented to bio-methane, and not cheaply convertable to a liquid biofuel
<leudaimon|work>
yeah, sugarcane has taken up 25% of the total area of my state here in Brazil... mostly for ethanol and sugar for export
<leudaimon|work>
ethanol is a fairly common fuel here in Brazil, but I think the land occupied, as well as the terrible agricultural practices to produce surgarcane (lots of fertilizers that come from oil), kind of make the point of biofuels moot
<stratochief>
leudaimon|Work: on the whole, ethanol from sugar still ends up storing 7-8 times as much energy in the fuel than is inputted from the inputted oil energy for machinary and fertilizer production, so you should still be proud of it compared to the oil portion of your fuel tank :)
<stratochief>
not a lot of land on earth can produce sugar cane, so ultimately it can't be our primary source of liquid fuel, unless we demand like 95% less liquid fuel than we currently do
<leudaimon|work>
yeah, definitely an advance compared to gasoline, but the best lands in the region are used for that
<stratochief>
liquid fuels are damn tough to make. algae or solar/electric synthetic fuels will be the next viable scalable source
<leudaimon|work>
things like this algae are cool because in principle, you can produce them almost as if they were a solar farm
<stratochief>
yeah, exactly. algae fuel farms can be placed on terrible land, like deserts. so, no competition for cropland. cellulose fuel is grown on marginal land, so it is mid-way between sugar/corn and algae or solar fuel
<leudaimon|work>
yeah, definitely
<leudaimon|work>
but cellulose is a little far away also, right?
<stratochief>
cellulose can currently be converted to ethanol, but the enzymes required to drive it are too costly at present to compete with fossil fuel
<stratochief>
but cellulose can be cheaply fermented to bio-methane which is a potent fuel itself. basically natural natural gas.
<stratochief>
so, it doesn't have the density of liquid fuel, but we could fuel a lot of things on bio-methane, even many vehicles.
<leudaimon|work>
ah, I see... yeah, the info I had was about the conversion to ethanol and how expensive it is
<stratochief>
yep. there would need to be a breakthough in the cellulose -> liquid fuel route to make it cheap enough to substitute as a liquid fuel, and even then it can't replace the crazy volume of liquid fuel we consume itself
<stratochief>
but small vehicle electrification can itself reduce the total demand for liquid fuel by something like half, so I'm optimistic that a combo of solutions can prevail
<leudaimon|work>
yeah, electric cars have been the future for too long now...
<stratochief>
well, now that dense lithium ion batteries are here, it can begin in ernest. it will still be 2-5 years before I can really judge how long that will take
<stratochief>
lots of hydro power in brazil it looks like, so not too much trouble de-carbonizing that for you guys :)
<leudaimon|work>
;)
<leudaimon|work>
thermal has actually been increasing in recent years... and wind and solar are still embrionic, but we are probably better than most
<stratochief>
well, gas can potentially have the emissions captured and sequestered or, moved to bio-methane, or some combo of techs over the next 30-40 years. really, better shape than the avg country with all that hydro. makes me think of Canada
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<Duncan>
are there any plans to add Principia to the RO-RSS-RP0 collection and how playable is it at the moment?
<Pap>
Duncan: there have been discussions, but there were some errors that were being fixed (couldn't land on the Moon)
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<Pap>
I know that rsparky and NathanKell have both played with it
<Duncan>
why couldnt you land on the moon?
<Raidernick>
stratochief, you around?
<Pap>
It was a timewarping issue I believe
<stratochief>
Raidernick: indeed
<Raidernick>
stratochief, can you look at a ro config i have that seems to be adding 2 realchute modules magically to a part that shouldn't be
<Raidernick>
this config has been there for a while now and i never had 2 parachutes before
<Raidernick>
just testing the parts again and i noticed it now has 2 chute partmodules on it
<Raidernick>
and they conflict when you deploy them
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<Raidernick>
stratochief, I think I see WHAT is causing the problem but I don't know why
<Raidernick>
in the mm config cache I see a RealChuteFAR and RealChute module on it
<Raidernick>
why is FAR adding a parachute module to it
<stratochief>
Raidernick: do you have RealChute and RealChuteLite?
<Raidernick>
just realchute
<Raidernick>
wtf is realchutelite
<stratochief>
if you don't know, how do you know you don't have it? :P
<Raidernick>
because if i dont know what it is why would i have downloaded it?
<Raidernick>
lol
<stratochief>
I searched "RealChuteFAR" in the RealChute repo, and in the FAR repo. I see references to it in the FAR repo, related to RealChuteLite in FARAeroPartModule.cs
<Raidernick>
ok i see the issue
<Raidernick>
far installs a config for that mod by default
<Raidernick>
and that config overwrites any changes RO configs make
<Raidernick>
because it runs after
<Raidernick>
that's bad
<Raidernick>
it changes ModuleParachute into RealChuteFAR
<Raidernick>
but the RO config removes ModuleParachute and adds the realchute module
<Raidernick>
that means the FAR config is overwritting the changes the RO config makes
<Raidernick>
it should be the other way around
<stratochief>
Raidernick: I see. does it appear that process changed recently? That would explain why this is a new occurence
<Raidernick>
stratochief, I've never seen this config before
<Raidernick>
i have no idea when it was added
<Raidernick>
but it's not applying the changes in the correct way
<Raidernick>
it shouldn't overwrite any RO configs
<stratochief>
hmm. you could add a !RealChuteFAR {} and be done with it?
<Raidernick>
that would need to be done for ALL parachutes in RO
<Raidernick>
any parachute for a mod that is changed in the RO config
<Raidernick>
I think that the FAR config should just be fixed
<Raidernick>
and it shouldn't just run on ModuleParachute but also the RealChute partmmodule if it already exists
<Raidernick>
because Ro configs already replace the default one with the RC one
<stratochief>
fair. but you could test remove it, to confirm that your own chute still works. if something changed in FAR recently your chute may not?
<Raidernick>
it's not just that one part
<Raidernick>
its all the chute parts
<Raidernick>
but yes I can remove that cofnig
<Raidernick>
which i did
<Raidernick>
and i'm loading it up now
<Raidernick>
ok yeah the extra modu,e is not there anymore
<stratochief>
perhaps leave ferram4 a !tell to get some insight on what changed recently, and why the order seems to be backwards?
<Raidernick>
stratochief, what I think needs to be done is this needs to be run AFTER anything else so it doesn't change the stock parachute module into the far one before RO configs have a chance to remove it
<stratochief>
and/or make an Issue on the FAR repo
<Raidernick>
I'll make a fix to the config to make it work properly and make an issue or PR for it
<Raidernick>
stratochief, what is the separator for 2 mods inside a NEEDS[]
<stratochief>
Raidernick: dependson the relationship isn't it | for or, and & for and? the MM syntax page on the forum is where I always look to confirm that
<Born|toWork>
pap what difficulty setttings should i be on?
<Duncan>
principia unable to land on moon issue is fixed
<Duncan>
not in the latest release though (its 6 months old)
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<Duncan>
fixed in RSS not principia
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<Agathorn>
Rokker: didn't have the v22s when I was in.. Still used mh53s and mh60s.. in fact the operators were very much against the v22s
<Rokker>
Agathorn: they got a 53 at the museum
<Agathorn>
but of course the remfs don't care much about what the man in the field says :)
<Rokker>
Agathorn: eh, it's better than it used to be
<egg>
Pap: as Duncan said, the moon landing issue is considered an RSS issue until further fairly high-effort improvements to Principia and has been fixed as such; see principia#1413 and RO/RealSolarSystem#111
<Qboid>
[#1413] title: Some stock bodies have peaks that are higher than the time warp limit | For example, Minmus highest points are around 5-6 km, but the timewarp limit is 3 km, making landing at these locations impossible with Principia.... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/principia/issues/1413
<Duncan>
note that RO issue 111 is fixed and merged
<egg>
yup
<Duncan>
cool mod btw :-)
<Duncan>
can I use my existing save if I dont mind all my satellites crashing?
<egg>
it should work (and some of your satellites might be fine even :-p)
<Duncan>
also is asteroid capture not a thing?
<egg>
?
<Duncan>
it says on the faq to delete all the asteroids when playing with rss
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] raidernick opened pull request #1689: RN fix missing plume on aerobee (master...master) https://git.io/vQITk
<egg>
Duncan: that's mostly because of the mix of performance reasons and the stock asteroids being silly
<Duncan>
in what way are they silly?
<egg>
for more on the silliness of asteroids poke UmbralRaptor with a stick
<Raidernick>
stratochief, I made a PR hopefully he accepts it otherwise we will need to do some voodoo on RO side to undo the changes that config makes or block it
<Duncan>
sounds dangerous
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<Agathorn>
Anyone know why NASA tends to favor vertical integration rather than horizontal like most commercial companies?
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<Raidernick>
Agathorn, since nasa was doing it first you should be asking why others prefer horizontal
<Agathorn>
either way I guess
<Raidernick>
they built all their infrastructure around vertical
<Agathorn>
just curious if there is a reason to favor one over the other or not
<Agathorn>
horizontal would actually seem easiest
<Agathorn>
so the fact that NASA went vertical is curious to me
<Raidernick>
it might have something to do with saturn v
<Raidernick>
earlier rockets i believe they did either vert or hor with
<Raidernick>
and saturn v needed to be vertical
<Agathorn>
yeah I tink the VAB was built for the SV
<Agathorn>
but why would it need to be veritcal? Hmm
<Raidernick>
and after that they kept reusing the same crawlers and stuff
<Raidernick>
which needed rockets in vert
<Agathorn>
I guess I could googles
<Agathorn>
but I like asking you guys :D
<Raidernick>
i believe part of the reason for the shape of the n1 was because it was more structurally stable
<Raidernick>
so it could be integrated horizontally
<Raidernick>
the sv would probably break under it's own weight
<Agathorn>
There is a Saturn V currently laid out horizontally at KSC, though granted in sections
<Raidernick>
Agathorn, that's my point
<Raidernick>
i don't think the joints can support the weight
<Agathorn>
but surely that would be true of any rocket, and they build a support structure? I guess in that case, vertical integration can be more generic
<Agathorn>
from what i'm reading it might come down to payloads requiring vertical integration..though not sure why that would be
<Agathorn>
one point that does make sense is that if you have peopel crawling in on top anyway, makes sense to just do it vertical
<Born|toWork>
RD-103 ground light only?
<Agathorn>
Raidernick: yeah dosn't make sense to me either but a lot of what i'm reading indicates that even rockets that do HIT, roll out to the pad to integrate the payload
<Rokker>
i wonder how possible it is to turn a 50 cal cartridge into a rocket motor
<Born|toWork>
it is, rocket candy easy
<Rokker>
Born|toWork: im trying to figure out how to turn the neck into a nozzle
<Rokker>
can i just say, the absolute precision and centered-ness of where the primer was struck on this M82 fired 50 BMG is just beautiful
<Born|toWork>
in a metal worker, roll it in on a SS tube, braise in a tiny peice of tubing, or just braise in a throat made from steel
<Born|toWork>
Can i Light a RD-103 inflight or do i have to light it on the ground, I'm not having success with air lighting even with sufficent ullage
<Born|toWork>
Rokker your not going to like the effects of rocket exhaust of any reasonable temp on that brass
<Pap>
Born|toWork: are you still looking into what difficulty to play on?
<Born|toWork>
yes
<Born|toWork>
hard is...
<Pap>
I am on moderate with 100% funds penalties, NK is on hard with 100% funds penalties
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<Pap>
I have had no issues with Science as of yet on Moderate, that would be my only concern on hard
<Bornholio>
science seem easy, i have no money to buy anything i research
<Pap>
Ah, yeah, that sucks
<Bornholio>
keeping a journal with my thoughts trying to get a orbital launch to succeed, 4 fails so far.
<Agathorn>
Raidernick: apparently it has to do with the way payloads are built and something something "Cantilever loads". Also apparently there are goverment requirements for vertical payload integration
<Pap>
is one of your thoughts that the beginning of the game is too grindy Bornholio?
<Agathorn>
so seem that really goign vertical would be the best - BUT it costs a lot more.. with HIT I guess you have to roll out to the pad for payload integration in some cases
<Pap>
Agathorn: that would actually make sense I think
<Bornholio>
pap only from a money sense, and probably only on hard, i have no contracts to do, only sounding medium, and those pay negative often enough (tF helps that) they aren't worth doing
<Pap>
Something like the Hubble or all of the SpySats that were launched based on the Hubble were (from what I understand) incredibly fragile
<Agathorn>
Last time I played I still found early science (tier 0) to be grindy
<Pap>
Bornholio: I agree that we need to find new contracts to fill out that period. I guess that is why I thought grindy, you are essentailly just re-trying to orbit over and over
<Agathorn>
once I got a bunch unlocked though then it flowed better
<Pap>
brb
<Bornholio>
three launches got me all the science i can get without orbit or long distance aircraft
<Bornholio>
and it would have been two had i not messed up parachutes on the second :)
<Agathorn>
howmuch science did you have after those 3 launches?
<Bornholio>
all the 1, 2 and 3pt techs
<Agathorn>
the who?
<Agathorn>
you mean 10,20,30?
<Agathorn>
from 3 launches?
<Agathorn>
either you got a lot more science than me or I was doing something wrong
<Bornholio>
paps tech tree
<Agathorn>
YEAH I KNOW
<Agathorn>
ack
<Agathorn>
:)
<Agathorn>
I had to do all the annoying angled sounding rocket launches to try and get all the biomes
<Agathorn>
which I find super annoying
<Agathorn>
I find biome hunting in gneral super annoying
<Bornholio>
lol i ignore everything on earth unless i happen to be landing there
<Agathorn>
then how are you uinlocking the first few nodes when a sounding rocket can barely even get to space?
<Agathorn>
your are a conundrum to me
<Bornholio>
V-2 gets to space fine
<Bornholio>
not orbit
<Pap>
back
<Pap>
Agathorn: you are talking about the OLD New Tech Tree
<Pap>
Things have changed...A Lot.
<Pap>
Agathorn: if you ever need a break for ST, RealScience could use some love :)
<regex>
So I'm guessing I should check out the new tech tree since mine is like, a week old...
<Bornholio>
I have 33 in reports and probably <12 in recovered craft , its 25pts for all 1-3pt tech, +7 for Sat Science, 8.7 remains
<Pap>
lol regex, the updates that have been pushed should not be save breaking by any means
<regex>
Yeah, no worries, I'm more worried about my craft breaking than anything else
<Agathorn>
pap yah it could but there is a lot of work there to achieve the roadmap
<Bornholio>
Darn that guy who wrote TF
<Agathorn>
though maybe now that I know more it might be less work than it was before
<regex>
We need a Khan macro for Agathorn
<Pap>
Agathorn: yeah, I wish I could take it over, but I am no where near knowledgeable enough yet
<Pap>
Alright Bornholio I am looking for some ideas for contracts to have in between sounding rockets and Oribt
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<Bornholio>
Sounding but with specific target altitude, and with specific instruments. Also a lot of times i couldn't take a medium becasue it was too high for early tech. Recovered payload is a good requirement also
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<Pap>
Hi rsparkyc!
<rsparkyc>
hey Pap
<Pap>
how are you doing today?
<rsparkyc>
today was rough, started making the arrangements at the funeral home
<rsparkyc>
now i'm just folding laundry and playing NK's livestreams at 2x speed
<Pap>
I am thinking about you man
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<Pap>
I don't know what your brother was interested in, but I have read some cool ways that people have honored / remembered / stayed close to their deceased family memebers on reddit, might be somewhere to look for answers for you
<Bornholio>
RC you get to sit down and talk about your brother with family?
<rsparkyc>
my family is spread out all over the us (technically, the world, as my parents are in Cyprus)
<rsparkyc>
i'm the only one here in GA
<rsparkyc>
and that's where he was
<rsparkyc>
they'll be flying in over the next few days though
<rsparkyc>
thx for all the support though :)
<Bornholio>
If you need to talk to someone, you have plenty of ears. I went through similar things but we all have different ways
<rsparkyc>
yeah, every where i go people offer support, i feel really blessed to have so many supportive people in my life
<rsparkyc>
y'all included
<Pap>
rsparkyc: It is ok for you to get angry about people saying I'm sorry, I know I got fed up with it. Just remember you can feel however you want to and people have no idea how to act so they just say I'm sorry
<rsparkyc>
Pap, i'm angry that you would think I would get angry
<rsparkyc>
JK
<Bornholio>
People don't know what to say most of the time. We don't open up about it enough as a culture
<Pap>
lol
<Pap>
Exactly Bornholio
<Pap>
Also, remember that if you want to laugh and make jokes at the services, that is your right to grieve how you need to. You aren't supposed to be sad because that is what people expect from you
<Pap>
Alright, I am done, just want to try to support you in ways others might not
<Bornholio>
Rokker please don't visit that link, an airman might embarasshimself
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<Rokker>
Born|toEat: seen it and I'm not an airman. I'm too big of a pussy to join the air force.
<Rokker>
I'm just really weird and in love with it
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<Pap>
rokker/ and in love with it/
<Pap>
Well, that didn't work, there goes my fun
<Rokker>
Pap: what were you trying to do
<Rokker>
change it to I'm really weird and rokker?
<Pap>
lol, change it to "I'm just really weird"
<Pap>
Then I was going to say, fixed that for you
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<Rokker>
Rokker: s/and in love with it/
<Qboid>
Rokker meant to say: I'm just really weird
<Pap>
^^^ yep, that works
<Rokker>
Pap: fixed that fix for you
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<Pap>
lol
<NathanKell|AWAY>
FYI stream will be about two hours late, got an appointment during the usual slot
<NathanKell|AWAY>
Also, busy work day so I missed it anyone poked me
<NathanKell|AWAY>
If*
<Pap>
sounds good
<Born|toEat>
Pap whats best place to post my play journal to for branch testing?
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<Pap>
That's a good question Bornholio, I don't know...
<Bornholio>
where do tothers make comments at? RP-0 Thread
<Pap>
ah, no here I'll link the issue
<Pap>
RP-0#667
<Qboid>
[#667] title: Blue Skies Research Based Tech Tree | Some of you have been playing around with the tech tree that I made and have provided great feedback on it. As I have played through it, there have been some nice things and there have been some things that feel clunky with it. After some discussions with @NathanKell and @stratochief66 we discussed some ideas on how to improve things. I have