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<Pap> Bornholio: Made the X-33 before we talked, it looks wrong facing up and to the right, don't know if it is needed...https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329685702247841792/329775080085127168/NEW-rp0_icon_x33.png
<Bornholio> either way, i think consistent is the key to them all looking right together
<Pap> Everything else looks better up and to the right, means the X-33 might be scrapped
<Bornholio> venture star looks like it, maybe a better profile from one of those images
<Bornholio> or maybe space ship one
<Pap> Got one that I will try, thanks for the Venture Star Rec!
<NathanKell|WORK> Prototype spaceplanes is indeed DynaSoar IMO
<Qboid> NathanKell|WORK: Pap left a message for you in #RO [28.06.2017 17:40:30]: "I updated the sidebar of the RSS Subreddit. Nothing major, just what we talked about (from my memory at least)"
<NathanKell|WORK> Effective Spaceplanes is IIRC one node too early for STS, instead should be the 60s STS studies, probably a lifting body?
<Bornholio> maybe X-24A
<Bornholio> B looks cooler to me but might not look like much as an icon
<NathanKell|WORK> Yeah, or one of these https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4219/4219-283.jpg
<Bornholio> i tried staying away from notional and listed off things that atleast had flight tests
<Bornholio> but those could be cool too
<NathanKell|WORK> Ah. In that case hmm.
<NathanKell|WORK> Spaceplanes are where we're most in trouble
<Bornholio> but notional is needed later
<NathanKell|WORK> since everything but STS and Buran are notional
<NathanKell|WORK> DynaSoar never even flew a drop test, all we have is the mockup
<Bornholio> X-33 had everything tested except full flight
<NathanKell|WORK> MiG 105 at least did drop tests IIRC
<NathanKell|WORK> yeah, fair point about X-33
<Pap> And X-37B, and the X-43
<Bornholio> cancel because of fuel tanks is a ballkicker
<NathanKell|WORK> Oh right the X-37!
<Bornholio> I think you can count SpaceshipOne as one of the pack
<NathanKell|WORK> It's not a spaceplane tho
<Bornholio> but everything in it is spaceplane inovation
<NathanKell|WORK> It's an X-plane, sure
<NathanKell|WORK> But it's an X-plane like X-1, not X-15
<NathanKell|WORK> or NF-104, more like
<Probus> Hey, check this out. Radar array being built on Kwajalein Atoll. http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/space-fence.html
<Probus> The building has two huge radomes. One for transmit and one receive.
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<Bornholio> maybe Skylon for the first notional spaceplane, pap looks good
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<Bornholio> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_X-30#/media/File:X-30_NASP_3.jpg has a nice profile maybe for a later notional
<Pap> Here is what I am thinking...
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<Bornholio> i think blowfish has the idea, make it A-12 then concorde for AJE/Mature
<Bornholio> maybe Darpa Falcon for experimental (that we only have artists guess for)
<Pap> OK, I flipped those two
<Pap> I am also ok with having th eSkylon as the final 4 nodes
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<Bornholio> pap I'm going to git my nuclear engines work, I'll release it to RO/RP-0 from there after people take a look at it. Do you have a spreadsheet for the techs?
<Pap> Bornholio: do you need Google Drive, or is Excel ok?
<Bornholio> excel is fine
<Bornholio> thanks
<Bornholio> looks for external file :P
<Pap> hmm
<Bornholio> I'll just use the tree lookup for what i need
<Pap> Let me send you a non-macro versino
<Bornholio> still looking for external file but its usable for what i want.
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<leudaimon> o/
<acharles> How is everyone today?
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<leudaimon> Pap, I'm looking at the GEO network that is being offered for me, and it has already defined one of the crafts is one of the sats I have from my established MEO comm network
<Pap> leudaimon: Damnit!
<leudaimon> actually, it's demanding a direct connection to it for some of the sats
<leudaimon> I didn't even accept the contract yet
<Pap> damn, ok, give me a minute
<leudaimon> np, just to let you know
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<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vQWjh
<github> RP-0/master 794f8f6 Pap: Fix GEO Network trying to talk to old MEO Network...
<Pap> !tell soundnfury Get the latest RP-0 hotfix for a GEO Comsat Netowrk contract fix that you had mentioned before
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap> !tell NathanKell* Get the latest RP-0 hotfix for the GEO Comsat Network bug that was forcing the satellites to use the old MEO sats (it is in master, for RIS)
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<NathanKell> o/
<Qboid> NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [28.06.2017 17:41:45]: "Discord link: https://discord.gg/3xMtyBg"
<Qboid> NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [29.06.2017 02:18:05]: "Get the latest RP-0 hotfix for the GEO Comsat Network bug that was forcing the satellites to use the old MEO sats (it is in master, for RIS)"
<leudaimon> that was fast Pap
<Pap> leudaimon: Happened to be just finishing up another project
<leudaimon> I'll even go for this contract now
<Pap> leudaimon: with the way that CC works, you might have to wait for the contract to reload itself and re-offer it to you in Mission Control
<github> [RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vQleC
<github> RealismOverhaul/pap1723-ROupdates bdb993f NathanKell: Merge remote-tracking branch 'origin/master' into pap1723-ROupdates
<leudaimon> oh, ok
<leudaimon> if I decline it would it be ok?
<NathanKell> Pap: ah right did you get my git pokes about the changes I made to the cfg but not the xls?
<NathanKell> leudaimon: Yes, IIRC there's no decline penalty?
<NathanKell> not that rep matters so eh
<NathanKell> Agathorn: See, 4 one day, 7 the next...
<Pap> Yes I did NathanKell I already made the changes to the spreadsheet
<leudaimon> he, 3 reputation right now is like nothing
<NathanKell> Pap: \o/
<NathanKell> Pap: I'm going to wait until leudaimon beats me before streaming another RiS ep :D
<Pap> I had made most of those changes already, but forgot to rebuild the Tree and send it
<Pap> :)
<NathanKell> ah cool!
<NathanKell> Oh, what I didn't do was move RCS TL2 up to 60something
<NathanKell> when might be good do you think?
<Pap> There were some parts that I missed on the X-15, so it was actually good that it worked out this way
<Pap> So the RCS level you know much better than I, they are basically just ISP and thrust increases, correct?
<NathanKell> Yeah. We have early flight control which is like 59-61, then stability which...ah. I think actually maybe we should just move it right an era
<NathanKell> or is there one in 63?
<NathanKell> 63/64?
<NathanKell> ARGH I closed my pdf
<Pap> One in 59, 61, 63, 64, 67
<NathanKell> hmm, lemme look at it ingame
<NathanKell> 1sec
<NathanKell> (haha more like 1hr)
<NathanKell> Pap: I'd swap the exensible RCS and the TL2 upgrade
<NathanKell> Pap: The later RCS TL upgrades also need to be shifted back. Basically TL1 is 1959-1962, TL2 is 1963-1965, TL3 is 1966-1969, TL4 is 1970+ (same era as the F-1A), TL5 is shuttle, TL6 is 90s, TL7 is today
<Pap> ok, you were also going back and forth on whether or not you wanted the RCS upgrades in that branch, or in the engines?
<Pap> Great, I will move them all
<NathanKell> In their branch I think. Now that we have the blue sky nodes it's fine to do that
<Pap> ok
<NathanKell> That gating approach solves a lot of issues :)
<Bornholio> anything use Reputation in RP-0 now?
<NathanKell> nope
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQlvX
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree 1923fb4 NathanKell: RCS swap (later RCS TLs still need shoving forward IMO)
<Pap> Are you starting TTT soon?
<NathanKell> Yep
<NathanKell> I'm just finding a Vostok to install
<NathanKell> or other cool supported pod
<NathanKell> tired of the Mk1
<NathanKell> Anybody got suggestions?
<Pap> We don't have great support there since Tantares started over
<NathanKell> mmm. I can maybe grab the old one?
<Pap> You can try, but it is not working well and I didn't even place the parts in the tree because they were busted
<Pap> It is a complete tear down and rebuild
<NathanKell> ok
<leudaimon> doesn't RN have a vostok?
<Pap> ^^
<leudaimon> haven't used his mods in ages, but I see frequent updates on the RO github
<NathanKell> Yep
<NathanKell> Raidernick's stuff is good
<NathanKell> Very good
<NathanKell> Hard to play legos with tho
<leudaimon> I felt like cheating using the Vanguard-1 probe for everything
<Pap> His Vostok is the only one currently supported
<Pap> IronCretin re-made the Tantares one and released it as a standalone mod, we just need to configure it for RO
<Pap> And also, Alcentar (sp) who makes RealEngines made one for the most recent anniversary of Gregarin's flight
<NathanKell> hmm. Wouldn't the old tantares configs work on IronCretin's?
<leudaimon> Pap, I see the change you made to the GEO contract includes the new resources... I don't think this is already implemented in the branch we have been playing RtS, is it?
<NathanKell> just need the partnames converted
<NathanKell> It's not. :]
<NathanKell> just strip that PARAMETER
<leudaimon> what about this requirement for 3 repeat commsats?
<Pap> Oh shit, sorry about that, that is the one that I updated for the new branch, the 3 repeat commsats really should be a requirement, but not for you guys in the middle of the game, i'll fix it
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vQlfc
<github> RP-0/master 0252034 Pap: Removed Satellite Bus Reqs and Repeat ComSat Reqs
<leudaimon> :)
<leudaimon> I was doing it by hand
<Pap> I did it by hand as well, just more familiar with the structure
<Pap> :)
<leudaimon> definitely
<leudaimon> I'm just grabing the relevant file anyway, because I added the proc. avionics and they are still a PR in github
<Pap> seriously, isn't it difficult to try and figure out what pieces of the dev stuff belong where?
<ferram4> NathanKell, fwiw, I have no idea how FAR will handle Vostok and spherical pods like that. They're kinda weird to handle aerodynamically.
<NathanKell> ok I think I hacked something together, let's see
<NathanKell> ferram4: Heh
<NathanKell> One way to find out
<leudaimon> what do you mean Pap?
<NathanKell> Ok, I *think* I hacked the IronVostok to be the old Tantares one, assuming the parts are sized the same it should be ok
<ferram4> Gah, I hate twitch so much.
<ferram4> Is there a lightweight version of it?
<Pap> leudaimon: like that mistake I just made with the contract. I forget that master does not have the satellite bus and I need to keep them separate on my PC. I have 3 KSP-RO installs and 3 developmental folders of RO/RP-0 that are all different
<NathanKell> ferram4: can you make your browser claim it's mobile?
<leudaimon> oh yeah, this kind of stuff is a nightmare, but if you are using git you could have all branches in a single folder for Dev
<NathanKell> ferram4: Also I kinda gave up on my spaceplane because I forgot that crew adds 100kg to the nose and shifts the CoM badly :\
<NathanKell> And I had ended up with DynaSoar anyway
<ferram4> Ah. Hmm.
<NathanKell> Problem is there's really only two or three viable early shuttles I've seen:
<Pap> leudaimon: I am using git, but I am only using about 1% of its features
<ferram4> Bah, can't set it to mobile.
<NathanKell> Big DynaSoar; VB 1952; and I was going to say VB 1948 but I don't think that has enough pitch authority
<NathanKell> (i.e. Dynasoar with low wing loading--the high wing loading version in real life needed LH2 for coolant)
<ferram4> Well, tbh, shuttles are kinda silly.
<NathanKell> I mean, yes.
<ferram4> Cool, but silly.
<NathanKell> This was an exercise in Chelomeic extravagance.
<ferram4> ...so RD-270 time?
<leudaimon> for very simple changes like the stuff I do I don't think it's worth it, but given how deep in the development of RO/RP-0 you are, maybe it's worth it
<NathanKell> RAKETOPLAN~~~~
<NathanKell> Ok, time to see if Vostok builds ok
<Pap> Yeah, I probably need to get more versed in it. Never thought I would have been doing this kinda stuff for RO/RP-0
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<leudaimon> :) it's nice because if you are studying software development you will use it anyway
<Pap> very true
<leudaimon> something weird is still going on with proc. avionics prices... sometimes a high utilization/low weight module is cheaper than a heavier/lower utilization one
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<leudaimon> man, how can it be so hard to get a close approach in a free return?
<Bornholio> not
<Bornholio> if you are in plane, get a n impact using hohman, tun it out with +prograde then increase shift time
<Bornholio> helps to focus view on moon
<Bornholio> sorry decrease shift time
<leudaimon> I'm trying that, but not much success... I always spend all the time I have to get that
<Bornholio> are you trying to get a super close approach?
<Bornholio> and return atmospheric?
<leudaimon> I would love to get a super close approach, to get a bio sample in space low, but that is not necessary
<leudaimon> also, I'd like to return with minimal maneuvering
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<NathanKell> leudaimon: My mistake was to put in too much dv
<NathanKell> in plane, you only need about 3200 for a close free return
<NathanKell> maybe 3180
<Bornholio> Just tossed my lowtech spike at the moon NOx is my friend
<NathanKell> ^_^
<NathanKell> leudaimon: If you watch my last episode of RiS you can see me get a very close one IIRC
<leudaimon> oh, ok... I have like another 5 min of tweaking to find one
<leudaimon> I'm 0.32 rel incl
<NathanKell> not much hope then
<NathanKell> but try for ~3180-3200m/s
<taniwha> NathanKell: PR ready
<NathanKell> then play with time
<NathanKell> taniwha \o/
<taniwha> bit of a glitch with the sky
<taniwha> I'll look into it, but that's the bulk of the work
<taniwha> shader doesn't init properly, I guess
<taniwha> (initial load)
<NathanKell> what do you mean?
<leudaimon> is it worth it touching normal?
<xShadowx> staring at a roll of 6kft 42awg magnet wire, my guess is about 15k turns, and a smaller roll of about 200 turns of 28awg magnet wire....oh how tempted i am to just touch a 9v batt with the rolls near eachother :)
<Bornholio> better off to spend normal with rcs Midcourse
<Bornholio> unless you have big changes to make
<NathanKell> leudaimon: Won't make a difference
<taniwha> NathanKell: sun shining in a stary sky
<NathanKell> oh, the afg is screwed?
<taniwha> yeah, probably something not getting updated
<Bornholio> ok my lunar impactor didn't complete even though i rode it all the way in. flyby did though
<leudaimon> I'll prioritize the low lunar peri, and I lower earth peri later
<NathanKell> ferram4: You were right, missing model
<NathanKell> we combined parts, and the patch was using the tantares path
<Pap> The impactors are always touchy CC contracts for completion, sometimes if the first thing to explode is the root part, it doesn't register
<ferram4> It seemed obvious. :P
<leudaimon> that's the test vehicle with biosamples and an empty capsule anyway
<Bornholio> guess comming thors hammer stye doesn't help that
<leudaimon> curious, never had a problem with impactors
<Bornholio> 3600 for 140k i can try again
<leudaimon> damn! engine failure
<taniwha> ah, no, something is very wrong why the afg
<taniwha> looks like its position
<taniwha> well, whatever is wrong with it, going to flight scene and returning fixes it
<github> [RealismOverhaul] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vQlkV
<github> RealismOverhaul/pap1723-ROupdates 101a3b7 NathanKell: Support IronCretin's Vostok. Note, it's missing RCS for some reason. NOTE: This removes support for the old Tantares one.
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQlkr
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree 2cc71f8 NathanKell: Support IronCretin's Vostok.
<NathanKell> leudaimon: HURRAY! (sorry :P )
<leudaimon> hahaha
<taniwha> NathanKell: any suggestions on where to look?
<NathanKell> taniwha: Sounds like you're not running after Kopernicus maybe
<NathanKell> try delaying your coroutine further
<leudaimon> if the failure hadn't come after 30min of tweaking the maneuver I wouldn't be so upset
<NathanKell> leudaimon: True, true :(
<NathanKell> that's super annoying
<NathanKell> I hate making free returns >.>
<leudaimon> haha, that's the game, and why we all love Agathorn
<leudaimon> yeah, that and docking are things I could pass
<NathanKell> Docking I find minorly annoying but don't mind that much
<NathanKell> it's precision flying, which is fine, just a pain with unbalanced RCS
<acharles> Docking is fun with MJ.
<acharles> It’s making RCS balanced craft, in RO that’s annoying
<blowfish> free return, not too hard. Low flyby, not too hard. Both combined? Probably caused at least a few people to ragequit
<taniwha> NathanKell: Kopernicus AtmosphereFixer?
<taniwha> (not running for Earth)
<acharles> blowfish: I think I’ve gotten low flyby, free return, once?
<taniwha> dunno about Moon, but Mun was fiddly enough
<acharles> I’ve only tried free returns on the moon.
<acharles> In stock kerbal with engines that don’t fail, I’ll go for the mun with no tracking center upgrade
<blowfish> I guess it kinda makes sense. For each parameter, there is a delta-v vs time line for which you can get it. For just one it's easy enough because you can set one and vary the other until it works
<blowfish> for both combined you are looking for the intersection of those two lines
<blowfish> meaning that there may only be one solution
<blowfish> and no way to know where it is
<acharles> Should get soundnfury to add it to konrad, since it does everything anyways. :P
<taniwha> well...
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<taniwha> burning prograde pushes your orbit towards the target, but since you get there faster, the target will be further away (not sure which way the balance goes)
<taniwha> delaying your burn pulls your orbit away from the target
<taniwha> burning earlier pulls it toward the target
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree fdd020b NathanKell: Forgot ECMs and to place/price the clones.
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQlIf
<taniwha> so once you're in the ballpark, determining how prograde burns affect things should be easy, and then it's just a matter of tweaking appropriately
<taniwha> hard part is the return pe
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<Pap> True or False, using the Shuttle icon for the Buran, no one would notice
<acharles> Getting a lunar flyby with sub 100km periapsis on both the moon and earth feels amazing.
<Bornholio> boosters& tanks unless you look at engines
<Pap> I am talking just the orbiters
<taniwha> ah, ok. yeah, it's just that initial load
<taniwha> setting the sc in-game works fine
<Bornholio> just the butt, weird round tiles on the buran
<taniwha> NathanKell|NOMZ: initial load is, however, fine at the cape
<acharles> Pap: Are the proposed sounding rocket progression contracts testable yet?
<Pap> acharles: no they are not. I wont get a chance to work on them until this weekend at the earliest
<acharles> Pap: Ah, no problem. I’m just getting to the point in the new tree where I’m thinking more about my launch contracts proposal, and it would be nice to see what the sounding contracts are like.
<Pap> what point is that at?
<acharles> The 1956-1957 Orbital Rocketry unlock.
<Pap> ok, so if you designed one of your contracts right now, what would it be? (still trying to wrap my head around the idea)
<acharles> I don’t entirely know.
<acharles> Mostly because I don’t have as much experience.
<acharles> I was going to do some LV design in the VAB while watching NK stream.
<acharles> But probably 100-200kg to 150 perigee orbit.
<acharles> Since that’s possible with the previous tech level
<acharles> And should be trivial with the newer rocket tech.
<Pap> have you done any of the satellite contracts? Many of them are like that now
<acharles> I understand why you seem to be suggesting that the existing contracts are good enough. But really, it’d be much nicer if you tried to understand the problem I see and why I think my proposal is a good idea at a high level before trying to justify the existing solution.
<acharles> Cause the more I play the existing system, the less I like the properties it has.
<acharles> So, clearly, the solution isn’t going to trivially be, let’s tweak some satellite contracts.
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<Pap> I am not trying to trivialize your position, I am failing to see why a contract that states, get 100kg to an orbit of 150km is different from a contract that states get a Communications Satellite with 150 units of ComSatBus (about 100kg) to a similar orbit?
<acharles> By analogy, RP-0 is like a steakhouse. It only serves food that appeals to people who like steak. In this case, KSP players who enjoy historical campaigns. People who are vegetarian (i.e. new players) don’t find steak houses appealling. I’m saying, let’s change it from a steakhouse to a more general restaurant to appeal to more people. And you’re response is: I don’t understand why we should serve vegetarian options and by the
<acharles> way, we have some cool deserts that don’t have meat in them, so things should be fine.
<acharles> Pap: That’s because that’s not what I’m proposing.
<acharles> I’m proposing removing the vast majority of the upfront payouts from milestone contracts and moving those to one time contracts which explicitly incentivize building tech appropriate vehicles.
<acharles> If all I suggested was, replace comms sat contract with another contract with the same payout and requirements but different words, I’d think it was silly too.
<acharles> That’s why I spent hours responding on the issue and writing the issue in the first place, was so it was understandable. Perhaps I failed, but people don’t seem to be engaging their either.
<Pap> Ah, now I understand what you are saying
<Pap> The issue I have with that kind of setup is that it creates a grind for the player. If I don't want to launch 5 LEO missions just to get enough money to launch a mission to the Moon, then I shouldn't have to. Does that make sense?
<acharles> Do you play with test flight?
<Pap> Yes I do
<acharles> And when you unlock an engine, how many flights do you fly it on before sending it to the moon?
<Pap> Typically 1 and I spend money on R&D
<acharles> So, why couldn’t that flight complete the LV contract?
<acharles> Why would you have to do 5 flights?
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<Pap> It could, but let's say that my first craft to put a satellite into orbit is equivelent to an R-7 Semyorka
<Pap> I now have a LV that can throw payloads to the Moon without having to complete an additional LV contract, that is part of the reason the Soviets were able to do those things before the US, much more capable early LV's
<acharles> You should probably pretend I don’t know what a Semyorka is, cause while I know what R-7’s look like, I don’t have any clue what their payload properties are.
<Pap> OK, replace the RL names with my LV that launched my satellite is powerful enough to go to the Moon
<acharles> I mean, this line of conversation is too specific and detailed to be useful this early. I’d rather consider the high level idea. But I fail to see the issue with your scenario, since you would’ve tested the engines on your R-7 once and used that flight to finish the LV contract.
<Pap> But how many levels of LV contract would there be?
<acharles> You see the huge Material Science nodes you have in the tree?
<Pap> Becasue the LV to get into orbit does not need to be nearly as capable as one to get to the Moon
<acharles> Well, one tier per one of those, perhaps?
<acharles> Or rather, it would unlock with the tech that provides the engines that depends on that node.
<acharles> Perhaps I’ll take a step back and ask, what’s the payload capacity of the first LV that you usually build after unlocking the 1956-57 tech node?
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<Pap> The problem with that question is that the LV that I build is far inferior to what many people build. I am not very good at RO, that is the issue I have with the contracts that you are proposing though. Someone like NK or leudeimon or rsparky or soundnfury are light years ahead of any type of LV contract that we could require them to accomplish
<acharles> But I don’t care about them.
<acharles> They’ll just do the contract for the money and move on.
<acharles> They don’t need guidance.
<acharles> Assuming you really are bad, then this contract system is for you and me. :P
<acharles> And everyone below us.
<acharles> NK won’t care if he does one more launch to test an LV before he uses it to go to the moon
<Pap> Yes, but after you play RO once or twice, you will no longer need guidance either. Then you have these missions taht you need to complete that will feel like a grind to you. They do to me now. I have played the first 5 years of RP-0 8 times in the last month and I do not want to have extra contracts to complete
<Pap> stratochief had the best idea when he said that the contracts that you are proposing need to be alternatives to what is in the system already
<acharles> There’s this awesome cheat menu that let’s you complete contracts, you know? :P
<acharles> But anyways, your objection isn’t a requirement of the actual implementation.
<lamont> pap: your new contracts are just like “deliver 1t of Unobtainium to LEO” right?
<acharles> There are already contracts that are impossible to complete with a single launch.
<Pap> lamont: sorta, yeah
<lamont> and those are going to replace the sounding rocket grindiness?
<acharles> It’s entirely possible to add LV contracts which will always be completable with an existing contract.
<acharles> Which means that advanced players can just do that and it’s only one extra button to push.
<Pap> lamont: they won't be "get unobtanium to orbit" as they will fit in before you really reach orbit. It'll be get x-tons to 500km with a sounding rocket
<lamont> because “huck 1t to LEO” really means “build an Atlas-Agena class launch vehicle”
<acharles> So, again, I don’t see why you think it’s a bad idea, in principle?
<leudaimon> man I didn't remember the communotron 32 was so expensive... in the current setting in which you sum the range of comm16s, it doesn't make any sense
<acharles> lamont: I’m basically suggesting a continuation of those contracts for orbital class vehicles.
<lamont> oh i see what Pap is saying, if you have to unlock them in a strict progression then you can’t jump contracts with an overly capable vehicle
<acharles> Pap: And the irony is, that I’ve played RP-0 three times now and I’m way more upset that I have to accept moon flyby/orbit/impact contracts to get money just to unlock rockets to use on orbital missions than I am by having to do the same contracts over and over.
<acharles> And besides, why would someone start over if they don’t want to do the same contracts again?
<acharles> lamont: Well, that’s true.
<acharles> lamont: But you can use the same overly capable vehicle to complete all of the contracts anyways.
<acharles> And I sort of find the argument of “Well, these might make NK have to launch an extra rocket that he wouldn’t have had to launch anyways” to be silly.
<lamont> heh it’d be kind of nice if they were just world-first style contracts, then NK could pick up two or more of them on one launch, and you wouldn’t have to accept them up front
<acharles> lamont: That could be possible, perhaps?
<acharles> I don’t know how those are implemented.
<Pap> it is not, they are hardcoded
<lamont> i don’t know if contract conf… yeah that
<acharles> You’re saying I couldn’t write C# to generate others?
<Pap> Well, you probably could, but that is outside the scope of the contracts we use
<acharles> I still think your objections are either about implementation details or concerns about experts who ultimately won’t care.
<acharles> If you really want to play the beginning of RP-0 8 times, these extra contracts won’t stop you.
<acharles> Saying that they will is just silly.
<acharles> Realistically, people only restart RP-0 when a new release comes out.
<acharles> And I’d probably stop the contracts after the F-1 unlock.
<acharles> Since at that point, there are diminishing returns.
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<acharles> Pap: The test flight config for the LR43-NA-3 doesn’t seem to work
<acharles> :(
<Rokker> acharles: wait
<Rokker> there is a LR43-NA-3 config
<Rokker> ?
<acharles> Yeah
<acharles> apparently.
<acharles> Pap: False alarm, I think I just turned off test flight :(
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<NathanKell> o/
<taniwha> NathanKell: initial load seems ok at the cape, and anything after that seems ok
<taniwha> it looks like the initial load happens too soon
<taniwha> dunno yet, though
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<taniwha> and I have to write a little message for mom
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<NathanKell|Twitch> Pap: I think first Staged Combustion node should require Early HSF Materials
<NathanKell|Twitch> They were flying Vostok capsules before the first Molniya launch
<NathanKell|Twitch> yep, ~5 months earlier. I support moving the first Staged node to 1961 and having it depend on the HSF bluesky nodes
<NathanKell|Twitch> Pap: Also, the orbitRecover contract description says can be completed 3 times but the requirement text when checking available says can be completed 2 times (so maxcompletions 2 in the file I guess?)
<NathanKell|Twitch> Pap: Also the firstMolniya contract seems to not be loading?
<acharles> NathanKell|Twitch: I knew you wouldn’t mind more contracts to do :P
<NathanKell|Twitch> Pap: Fixed 'em all I believe, just testing before push. So no worries :)
<NathanKell|Twitch> (the contracts, not Staged)
<NathanKell|Twitch> !tell Pap* there is an issue with the sat bus stuff. It says ComSatBus in the description but the actual parameter can require WeatherSatBus
<Qboid> NathanKell|Twitch: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQlOZ
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree 4251727 NathanKell: Fix the three erroring contracts, and move HSF repeatables to their own group. Also make orbitRecover maxCompletions follow its description (3 completes)
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<Rokker> stratochief: oi, canuck
<Rokker> taniwha: you are an ex, canadian right?
<Rokker> ex-canadian*
<taniwha> what's this "ex" of which you speak? :P
<Rokker> taniwha: ew
<Rokker> taniwha: anyways
<Rokker> what the fucking hell is this https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDc6bwYUwAAT35Y.jpg:large
<taniwha> horrifying
<Rokker> i mean
<taniwha> that seems like something Japanese would do
<Rokker> the maple donuts sounds good
<Rokker> but poutine donut?
<Rokker> why
<Rokker> WHY TIM HORTONS
<taniwha> what's poutine?
<Rokker> taniwha: ...
<taniwha> (note, I haven't been in Canada since 2004, and that was for 4 years)
<taniwha> and before that, left in 85
<Rokker> taniwha: fries and gravy
<Rokker> n some cheese
<taniwha> oh, well, that sounds yummy
<Rokker> taniwha: yeah but... why on a donut
<taniwha> as for on a donut: it's just bread or cake, depending on how it's made
<taniwha> (but bacon in a coffee? I like the two, but I want to enjoy them separately)
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<yogo> Are there any canadarm mods with working configs at the moment?
<Theysen> no idea :/
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<Theysen> !tell Pap I love how the DC-3 Otter cockpit is in Supersonic flight :D :D
<Qboid> Theysen: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<soundnfury> acharles: so, konrad _does_ have a console designed for doing free returns, it's called 'fba' (Fly-By Astrogation). But it doesn't find the solution for you;
<Qboid> soundnfury: Pap left a message for you in #RO [29.06.2017 02:17:13]: "Get the latest RP-0 hotfix for a GEO Comsat Netowrk contract fix that you had mentioned before"
<soundnfury> like the other astrogation consoles, it's basically a maneuver node editor that takes burn time into account (and works in spherical rather than cartesian co-ordinates for the burn definition)
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<Theysen> Soooo why exactly does it fail my "FIrst Orbital" before the 730 days are over? RIP save
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<Sigma88> ...tunnels... try one, they're better than you think. - Elon Musk 2017
<Sigma88> naughty elon
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<Pap> o/
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell|Twitch left a message for you in #RO [29.06.2017 06:51:33]: "there is an issue with the sat bus stuff. It says ComSatBus in the description but the actual parameter can require WeatherSatBus"
<Qboid> Pap: Theysen left a message for you in #RO [29.06.2017 08:51:41]: "I love how the DC-3 Otter cockpit is in Supersonic flight :D :D"
<Pap> Theysen: Don't underestimate how fast you can get the Otter to fly!
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<acharles> Pap: I’ve flown in a Twin Otter.
<acharles> They don’t go supersonic
<Pap> lol, I know, was being a jokester
<acharles> I know you were joking.
<acharles> But the twin otter is impressive for other reasons.
<Theysen_> Twotter masterrace
<Hypergolic_Skunk> just a pity it lacks IVA
<Hypergolic_Skunk> (at least for me. in my KSP install. probably my fault :P )
<Pap> Just a pity that it is a plane part and not a rocket part....RocketMasterRace
<Theysen_> Get out :^)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> where's egg when you need a weapon
<Pap> lol
<Ezko_> i wonder if there's a twin otter twitter account called twotter
<Ezko_> smallest plane i've flown in was a CRJ-900
<Theysen_> still quite big :P
<Ezko_> couldn't stand straight in the central
<Ezko_> thing
<Ezko_> between the seats
<Ezko_> yeah i can imagine what the even smaller planes are like :P
<Theysen_> C152 ftw :P
<Ezko_> tbh i'm not sure if crj900 or dash8 is smaller
<Ezko_> what was it
<Ezko_> anyway i flew croatian turboprop bombardier, whatever that was :P
<Ezko_> noisy at least
<Theysen_> Must be the crash-8
<Ezko_> yes
<Ezko_> flow two flights in one of those
<Theysen_> noisy af and a 50/50 chance of landing with a broken gear
<Ezko_> on the way from brussels to zagreb the flight was on crj900, then from zagreb to split a319, then back the same way 2x dash8
<Theysen_> Dash-8 has the best real life "review" of a dash 8 pilot on reddit
<Theysen_> I rolled on the floor
<Ezko_> i don't do reddit but i'll try to look
<Theysen_> give me a sec
<Theysen_> profanity and strong language but gold
<Ezko_> ah i found it accidentally :P
<Ezko_> :D sounds like a good plane
<egg|anbo|egg> !wpn Hypergolic_Skunk
* Qboid gives Hypergolic_Skunk a nova
<Ezko_> good thing i don't usually flyg airlines with them
<Hypergolic_Skunk> wait, how do I use a nova?
<Theysen_> it's a shotgun
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah.
<Theysen_> pump it and then pump the head of the enemy full of pieces
<Theysen_> No idea though :D
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap: can you hold still for just a minute? :>
<Theysen_> iirc the nova is non-pump action
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah screw this, I'mma just build me an SR-71 and come visit Pap in person
<Pap> !wpn Pap
* Qboid gives Pap a fall omicron nonagon
<Theysen_> I think you lose that one somehow.
<Pap> Well, if I knew what that was, I would defend myself with it
<Ezko_> has anyone been to sr-71 weekend at march field air museum?
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<egg|anbo|egg> !wpn Theysen_
* Qboid gives Theysen_ a gastrointestinal Balmer carrot
<Theysen_> eew
<Theysen_> i love how KSP-RO shits itself when you quit via the main menu lol
<Pap> Everytime it crashes on me
<Theysen_> yes
<Theysen_> but first world problems.. I'd rather have it crash upon quitting than during building stuff and you accidentally attached the whole booster stack in 8x symmetry and 32bit said no.
<stratochief> !tell Rokker TimHortons was murdered through acquisition and hollowed out into shit years ago, nearly a decade
<Qboid> stratochief: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid> stratochief: Pap left a message for you in #RO [28.06.2017 17:42:00]: "Discord link: https://discord.gg/3xMtyBg"
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<Theysen_> What ya think guys? I finally have an idea for a mision: http://imgur.com/a/ph12u
<Theysen_> dont mind the 1 minute paint action
<stratochief> but, why bring the shuttles to Mars? and I think the shuttles will require a very substantial NERVA module to push to Mars & back
<Theysen_> because of the space it offers
<Theysen_> and we already had that hardware for prolonged living in the cargo bay
<stratochief> so, step 1: build a Shuttle architecture?
<Theysen_> what do you mean
<Theysen_> would have been a better use for them than sending them into museums :P
<stratochief> I mean, you need to build & fly some shuttles
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<Theysen_> that's the stupid part yes :D
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<Bornholio> theysen, great idea, kind of like mine.
<Bornholio> we should have left one at ISS, we have spent much money looking at an emergency return craft for the ISS and also a system to boost it up ocassionally. we could have just sent one last shuttle up and left it ther...
<Sigma88> do the emergency return craft stay on ISS indefinitely?
<Bornholio> unless there is an emergency requiring abandoning it i would imagine that was the thought
<Sigma88> idk if I would trust a return vehicle that has remained untouched for years
<Theysen_> but the russian boosting works flawlessly doesn't it?
<stratochief> Sigma88: the vehicles they intend to use in an emergency are the same ones they indent to use to come down as normal, nothing stays up permanently as an emergency escape vehcile for that reason, the longer somethign is up, the less you can trust it
<Sigma88> yeah that's what I thought
<Theysen_> soyuz stronk, soyuz trustworthy, soyuz rescues all
<stratochief> ^^
<stratochief> soon, Dragon will also help for the resucing
<Sigma88> what I just realized tho is that in case of emergency you would need to evacuate the iss completely
<Sigma88> or risk leaving people stranded up there
<Theysen_> there are several vehicle docked there
<stratochief> thus, 2 vehicles docked at all times, in normal circumanstances the one that has been up longest goes down first
<Sigma88> ah
<stratochief> in an emergency, both would come down with all crew
<Sigma88> didn't know that
<Sigma88> stratochief: I was thinking of an emergency that does not require full evacuation
<Sigma88> like a medical emergency
<Theysen_> 2 guys go down
<Theysen_> I'd say
<Sigma88> yeah I just didn't know that the iss had 2 soyuz
<Sigma88> if there is only one you need to evacuate everybody, you don't want to risk that a second unrelated emergency kills whoever stays on the iss
<Bornholio> always loved the soyuz garbage cans, now cygnus too
<Sigma88> can soyuz return unmanned?
<Theysen_> I'd think so yeah
<Theysen_> Bornholio, that would be Progress then right
<Bornholio> they can use the upper hab part for trash on soyuz since its jettisoned tight?
<Theysen_> yes
<Bornholio> another waste stream that should be used https://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/exploration/researchtech/trashdiscs.html
<lamontzzzz> do launch clamps have a certain max fuel flow capacity per clamp?
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<stratochief> lamont: probably, yeah. if not enough, moar clampz
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<Theysen_> Would anyone know why a basic R-7 rocket would reduce fps into the single digits with huge freezes every 2 seconds? No log spam either oO
<Pap> Which engine are you using?
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<Theysen_> Pap, the RealEngines and now SSTU and it didn't make a difference
<Theysen_> it's very few parts as well
<stratochief> Theysen_: realplume, too many particles?
<Theysen_> 1000, never happened before
<Theysen_> it is only like 20 parts maximum?
<Theysen_> very strange tbh
<stratochief> or too few particles. I've found that 3000-6000 particles gives me the best fps
<Theysen_> okay? oO
<stratochief> you could try removing realplume and seeing if it has any effect?
<stratochief> then we'd know for certain if I'm 100% wrong or not
<Theysen_> *every* other launch vehicle is fine
<Theysen_> everything american I build in serial staging with far more parts doesn't lag like that
<stratochief> any other launch vehicles with so many plumes, though? R7 has like.. lots, including 4x per booster & core, plus verniers
<Pap> I had that issue every single time I tried to use an LR91 (Titan main engine)
<Pap> Or is the Titan main a different number? I know the LR91 is Titan, can't remember which stage
<Theysen_> lr91 is upper iirc
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<Rokker> Theysen_: aye
<Rokker> Theysen_: it's like a single chamber 87 with halved thrust
<Rokker> halved thrust for a single chamber
<Rokker> Theysen_: is a perty engine
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* NCommander is debating trying RO but has no idea what to expect
<NCommander> I'm just gotten sick of a lot of the stock KSP career grind, combined with the fact that I find it rather easy
<leudaimon|work> NCommander: any specific doubts? RO is seriously addictive, and you will never want to play stock again, but has a learning curve even if you are used to KSP
<Hypergolic_Skunk> NCommander: there'll still be a grind, but it's going to be much more challenging :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk> and rewarding
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I wonder what percentage of KSP players end up playing RO
<leudaimon|work> NCommander, if you want to get a feeling of how is an RO/RP-0 career, take a look at NathanKell's great tutrial campaign series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLI_cTKGllaWhVsKMRM_3axuFPcR6HYluL
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<hattivat> NCommander: first of all, expect almost no throttling and almost no restartable engines
<leudaimon|work> there were some changes to the game since then, and some more extreme ones are coming, but the general feeling will be the same
<hattivat> you can practice building rockets that can get into orbit without throttling in stock
<hattivat> not that hard once you get the hang of it
<Hypergolic_Skunk> NCommander: almost all fuels require ullage, meaning the fuel needs to be settled at the bottom (near the engines) before ignition. if not, you'll get 'vapor in fuellines', and your engine is waste :P
<hattivat> ^ once in flight, he means, on the ground gravity does that for you
<Hypergolic_Skunk> also: attitude control. say byebye to allmighty reaction wheels
<NCommander> I've watched almost all of Scott Manley's videos
<NCommander> And I've written kOS scripts to suicide burn
<NCommander> Though it was more suicide than land
* NCommander only got it to work once or twice and softland on Minnus
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ^
<NCommander> Largest problem is the same issue I had with recent RemoteTech
<NCommander> It won't hold retrograde SRF properly
<NCommander> and goes offcenter
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<Maxsimal> Is the A-9 supposed to be available at tech 0?
<NCommander> Well a lot what grates me about stock KSP is it's fairly unrealistic. I just recently sent a SSTO to minnus and back. I had fun with it but I also had to deal with the fact that the weights for in game rocket fuel is um ... silly
<Hypergolic_Skunk> NCommander: you'll look back to this moment and wonder why you didn't switch earlier
<lamont> you should probably give RO/RSS/RP0 a shot then
<NCommander> lamont, you made me double-take, I know someone w/ the same handle on Freenode who was a coworker
<lamont> lamont lucas?
<Maxsimal> Seems to good an engine to have it be there right at the start, I don't remember it there in my 1.1.3 game
<NCommander> LaMont Jones, at Canonical
<lamont> ah don’t know him
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<leudaimon|work> if you follow some tutorial (imho Scott manley's ones are not very good for RO) to learn how to get into orbit, and start worrying about LV design and stage sizes etc it will be a smooth transition
<NCommander> lamont, Hypergolic_Skunk: is RemoteTech fixed to make the flight computer in RT usable? I had to remove it from KSP because I would set up the FC and my probes would spin a lot
<stratochief> or, just try RSS w/RO-mini or that mod that scales the efficiency of engines. that should be enough to give you an idea if the types of challenges represented in a RSS+ are in the riect direction for you or not
<stratochief> NCommander: and, of course, #RO has its own IRC, if you ever want more specific help or advice :)
<lamont> i don’t think most people use the flight computer in RT
<lamont> you shouldn’t have to remove it though
<NCommander> Well, I like having speed of light delay
<NCommander> I had RT installed since RT1 on stock
<lamont> the RT PID is still apparently bad
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<NCommander> Ugh
* NCommander will have to disable speed of light delay then :(
<lamont> yeah
<leudaimon|work> and the flight computer does not work with ullage engines
<NCommander> you can program an RCS burn the flight computer if I remember correctly
<lamont> MJ also ignores speed-of-light
<NCommander> I only use MJ for launching, and usually after I get board of Fuel Launch 13488
<NCommander> and sending it to meet with my ship
<leudaimon|work> MJ is pretty useful to make a proper launch profile, and for planning maneuvers (porkchop plot for transfers is great)... also its SAS is more reliable than stock...
<ferram4> You know, I just thought what we need.
<NCommander> ferram4, ?
<ferram4> We need an RO campaign that isn't RP-0. Something that isn't strictly realistic, more as a tutorial-style campaign.
<NathanKell|WORK> Maxsimal: A-9 config should unlock in postwar rocketry, not start
<NathanKell|WORK> ferram4: pjf's UNROCK ?
<ferram4> Something to hide most of the engines that aren't necessary right from the start.
* NCommander does wonder how many RO players there are
<NathanKell|WORK> (unrealistic RO campaign for kerbal)
<NCommander> There's not a lot of RSS/RO on /r/KSP
<ferram4> Ah. That might work then.
<ferram4> Mostly because I'm here, about to say, "Okay, NCommander, here's how you get started..." and I realize that I'm about to drop a noob into sandbox with a fuckton of parts and barely any idea how all these different kinds of things work.
<NCommander> Well, I play Dwarf Fortress
<NCommander> So I know that feeling
<ferram4> It's one thing to discover that you forgot ullage or pressurized tanks or antennas or one minor thing, so long as you know what happened and how to fix it.
<NathanKell|WORK> ferram4: Heh. Sadly it was never made tho, just an idea
<ferram4> It's another when they all happen and you have no fucking clue why you've got a pretty looking, but inert (for now) metal bottle of fuel falling out of the sky.
<regex> That's a good idea to help those who didn't "grow up with RO"
<NathanKell|WORK> yeah, that's why I recommend to starting players to play RP-0, not sandbox
<leudaimon|work> ^
<NathanKell|WORK> because it adds things mostly one at a time, although ullage is a shock if you don't know of it
<lamont> also TestFlight and burntimes
<NCommander> I do credit KSP for teaching an entire generation about how impractical space shuttles are
<NCommander> :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I also never used stuff like spin-stabilization in stock
<NathanKell|WORK> ah yes, although at least there there's a 'middle click for info' when you hover over an engine
<NathanKell|WORK> Pap: is the A-9 config now in start? I thought it got moved to Postwar?
<NCommander> Hypergolic_Skunk, I actually use spin stablization to put stayputnik's in orbit
<NCommander> due to lack of SAS
<ferram4> At the same time, there's also the problem of "early rockets are very, VERY good at sucking a fat one and not much else." Which is a big hit against RP-0.
<NathanKell|WORK> :D
<regex> KSP may have taught people that Shuttles were impractical but it also popularized speisplains, so it's a wash IMO
<NathanKell|WORK> SPESSSPLENN
<lamont> yeah but even the concept that engines would hard fail after X minutes is a shock…
<ferram4> Although I suppose "blowing a fat one" is probably more accurate given what happens.
<NathanKell|WORK> regex: you remember that guy posting about how easy interplanetary spacpelanes were, and why didn't NASA make them?
<NCommander> lamont, depends on the version of KSP. The nuclear ones used to explode after they ran at 100% for too long
<regex> Yeah, lol
<ferram4> NathanKell|WORK, SPPPPPPHHHHEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
<NathanKell|WORK> EMPRAH
<lamont> hah yes, well...
* NCommander notes the shuttle does have one good thing
<lamont> and the old jumbo-64 heat bug
<NCommander> If you need a massive amount of downlift capacility
<ferram4> I was actually think of Tim Curry playing the Soviet Premier in Red Alert 3 for that, but the EMPRAH of MANKIND works too.
<Theysen> but the shuttle wins with sexiness and prestige, don't know. Gotta keep the publicity happy to get the money..
<regex> All those ~~:*ELITE*:~~~ stock players and their 100% reusable bone-stock speisplain careers
<NCommander> Is the current RO/RP0 RSS 1.2 based?
<Theysen> yea
* NCommander has a clean 1.2 install
<Theysen> good
<regex> How the fuck don't you get bored playing that kind of shit?
<ferram4> Yes. This is my fault. :D
<Pap> NathanKell|WORK: A-9 is in PW Rocketry
<Theysen> regex, because rockets are too fckn easy in stock
<NCommander> regex, it's the grind that kills me. Career mode and so many tourist missions to get the money to get parts
<Theysen> give them some challenge at least
<NCommander> I'm just debating if my potato can even run it
<NathanKell|WORK> Ah, never played any RA sequels, just the first
<NCommander> It struggles with stock sometimes due to the El Shito Linux GLX graphics
* NCommander has 32 GiB of RAM and an i7
<ferram4> Is your potato a 5-year old laptop?
<NathanKell|WORK> Pap: Ok, then I got confused from Maxsimal
<NCommander> 4 year old Ubuntu development machine
<NathanKell|WORK> NCommander: Have you ever played BARIS?
<NCommander> never heard of it
<NCommander> I'm probably just going to install RO now once I finish w/ work
<ferram4> It should be fine, just avoid all the pretty scatterer stuff.
<NCommander> Pity we don't have stable n-body physics
* NCommander tried orbiter but I couldn't get into it
<ferram4> PRINCIPIA
<NathanKell|WORK> RP-0 is fairly explicitly modeled on that. Instead of the grind, we have a system of milestone missions. The advance for the milestone gives you enough money to upgrade buildings, unlock parts, and test the LV and payload, and the reward gives you, well, a nice reward
<NCommander> ferram4, "stable"
<NathanKell|WORK> and completing one milestone unlocks others
<ferram4> It is though.
<NCommander> Plus last time I checked, principia didn't have a good way of handling station keeping operations
<NathanKell|WORK> i.e. pass the Karman line, first orbit, first orbital reentry, first crewed orbit, first lunar flyby, first impactor, first lunar landing, etc
<NathanKell|WORK> Yeah, principia doesn't do station-keeping yet AFAIK
<ferram4> You're not gonna do much stuff that requires station-keeping anyway though. Most things won't be affected too much.
<NCommander> Which kinda is a killer
<NathanKell|WORK> lunar anything, ferram4 :P
<NCommander> I do wonder if Principia actually has the RL frozen orbits
<ferram4> If it doesn't, that'll be better for you, tbh.
<lamont> L4/L5 should work
<leudaimon|work> soundnfury you dirty name thief! didn't remember the open version of BARIS was named Race into space
<ferram4> Rabble rabble rabble.
* NCommander wonders if he's crazy enough to do hardcore more RP-0
<NCommander> *mode
<lamont> medium is pretty easy, you start rolling in dough
<NathanKell|WORK> yeah, moderate is a good place to start
<NathanKell|WORK> if it feels fine, do hard
<lamont> oh you mean like no reverts / etc? ironman?
<NCommander> Well, I tried hardcore with stock. It helped with the "Go to Duna in three missions" problem, and introduced the "One failed mission, RIP space program"
<soundnfury> leudaimon|Work: ohai
<NCommander> It's not like NASA didn't have some great failures
<ferram4> Look, your missions will fail.
<ferram4> Frequently.
<ferram4> Hilariously.
<NCommander> *cough* Mercury-Redstone 1 */cough* :)
<NCommander> 4 inch rocket flight
<ferram4> The number of times that your engines will die just after taking off.
<NathanKell|WORK> ^
<NathanKell|WORK> Make sure you set a keybind for range safety
<NathanKell|WORK> or you'll lose the pad :]
<NCommander> Is manual installation still recommended or is now CKAN the recommended installation method these days?
<NathanKell|WORK> (all our probe cores have Range Safety as an action)
<NathanKell|WORK> CKAN should be fine
<ferram4> CKAN has always been recommended, except by me for historical reasons. :P
<NathanKell|WORK> :D
<leudaimon|work> anyway, there is a sufficient number of bugs/hiccups I think revert/quicksave is useful for those situations
* NCommander dislikes CKAN because it goes so wrong so many times :/
<NathanKell|WORK> The only issue with RO CKAN installs atm is that there's a partmod that recommends Stock Scale RSS, so make sure in the final list of packages to be installed it's not there (if it is deselect it)
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<ferram4> Hehehe
<ferram4> Recommends is a cancerous thing, tbh.
<lamont> you’ll probably find that you do want to revert/cheat past certain annoyances
<Pap> NCommander: come to the dark side and play the new Tech Tree...just kidding, not if you want an enjoyable long-term career
<NathanKell|WORK> I was about to recommend it actually
<NathanKell|WORK> The beginnning and middle are _way_ more fun
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<NCommander> I'm trying to get CKAN going
<Maxsimal> @Nathankell, @pap Mine is unlocked in the start node - but I guess I don't have the new tech tree
<NathanKell|WORK> and, well, I don't care about the end :D
<NathanKell|WORK> Maxsimal: That would be it
<lamont> the one i hate most is having a ton of MMH/NTO for RCS propellant and having 4 lovely nitrogen thrusters with no fuel — i don’t feel guilty at all about using infinite propellant or hacking the save file to get around that one…
<ferram4> NCommander, also, remember, never blame TestFlight for it causing things to break. Blame Agathorn.
<NCommander> Damn it, I know there's a way to get CKAN to install to a directory that isn't the Steam one
<Maxsimal> Was thinking about doing my own race into space - see if I can land someone on the moon in year 1, having the A-9 in start is going to make it much easier, I should probably switch to this new tree
<NathanKell|WORK> yes, the new tree is _amazing_ for slowing things down better
* NCommander got it
<Theysen> NCommander, first: copy the 1.2.2 out of steam
<NCommander> Yeah I did
<NCommander> Iust got CKAN to see the copy
<github> [RealismOverhaul] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to pap1723-ROupdates: https://git.io/vQ8db
<github> RealismOverhaul/pap1723-ROupdates 28d39c3 pap1723: Make Engine TT Upgrades show for RD100 and Aerobee
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<lamont> ckan ksp add rss122 /Users/lamont/ksp/rss_1.2.2
<lamont> ckan ksp default rss122
<ferram4> Oh, lamont, what was the link for the PEG paper?
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<lamont> the one i’ve been using is...
<NCommander> and CKAN crashes
<NCommander> woo
<ferram4> *snrk*
<ferram4> Thank you
<leudaimon|work> i get lots of crashes from ckan in linux, also it freezes large downloads constantly
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<lamont> use the command line
<NathanKell|WORK> Seriously, I'm addicted to PEG now
<NCommander> leudaimon|Work, it's always sucked on Linux
<lamont> the mac/linux ckan GUI is toxic sludge
<NathanKell|WORK> anything I can do to help with multistage? :]
<lamont> hah
<lamont> not really
<NathanKell|WORK> NCommander: that's cuz the linux devs of it use the command line? :P
<NCommander> Makes sense, I use Gentoo anyway ;)
* NCommander makes sure he has the right mods selected to install
<lamont> i need to be able to track stages with persistence for the A, B, T, K variables and associate them with MJ’s idea of stages, even through events like fairing sep when lower stages will get renumbered, and need to ignore sep motors, while not ignoring the last few dV of the currently burning engine… and handle stage burnout cleanly… and then think through the edge cases around needing to dip into your TLI upper stage in Angathorn-crea
<lamont> emergencies and stuff like that...
<lamont> although i don’t need to do all that to get a first cut out, but i need to at least vaugely have an idea of how to get to the end there…
<ferram4> NathanKell|WORK, lamont, I propose that once general multistage PEG is installed, the test case should be a Titan IIIC, max payload to LEO, needing nearly the entire transtage. :D
* NCommander grabs all the recommended and suggested mods
<NCommander> Time to see if CKAN melts down
<NCommander> Kerbel Construction Time never managed to get a 1.2 version out the door, didn't it :/
<NathanKell|WORK> ferram4: you are EVIL
<NCommander> Well it's downloading
<lamont> my test bed is a double-Atlas-Agena. I could throw a Centaur in the middle of that, and toss enough ballast to lower the dV down to 9300-ish, and see how 4-stage PEG from the launchpad behaves…
* NCommander guesses his life will end now
<NathanKell|WORK> NCommander: Um. I highly recommend *not* doing the suggests
<NathanKell|WORK> NCommander: You'll be overwhelemd
<ferram4> NathanKell|WORK, but it is the most aggressive test case, yes?
<NathanKell|WORK> NCommander: Best start just with the recs.
<NathanKell|WORK> ferram4: Yes, it is
<NCommander> NathanKell|WORK, even RP-0?
<NathanKell|WORK> 3 stages of vastly varying TWR, a hella-long burn time
<NathanKell|WORK> NCommander: Add RO and RP-0 and what *they* recommend.
<ferram4> If it can handle that, it can handle everything.
<NathanKell|WORK> But don't add their suggests
<Maxsimal> So to get this new tech tree, do I just wipe my RP0 folder, and then put what's in the papTechTree branch in there instead?
<NathanKell|WORK> ferram4: the other extreme would be a notional SSTO, something like an NK-33 Atlas.
<lamont> i could use the big soviet first stages to get like 1.6 on the pad and then like 0.5 uppers...
<NathanKell|WORK> Maxsimal: you also need the pap-ROUpdates branch of RO
<Pap> Maxsimal: you will also need the RO
<Pap> Ninja'ed
<Pap> Maxsimal: Wait 5 minutes to get the RP-0 branch
<NCommander> I'll keep DMagic, and Near Future, I've played with both before
<lamont> i think 2-stage PEG is probably the next milestone tho...
<ferram4> Hmm... also interesting: how to handle the EELVs and the way they throttle down near 1st-stage burnout.
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<Bornholio> drooling over new pap-icons
<Maxsimal> Ok will do
<Pap> Bornholio: wait till you see the real new ones now...
<Bornholio> I have a sick day so I'm rebuilding my NTR worksheets, can't wait to see em
<Bornholio> the icons that is
<Pap> Bornholio: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/319857228905447436/330083969205010432/unknown.png Top 3 branches are done, the image doesn't do them justice
<Bornholio> very nice
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Pap-TechTree: https://git.io/vQ8NL
<github> RP-0/Pap-TechTree b5dbd65 pap1723: New Icons, Fix GEO Network Contract, RCS Techs Update...
<Pap> Alright Maxsimal you are good to go
<Maxsimal> Cool, grabbig it
<Bornholio> Damn pap they keep looking prettier, like the fine details on the apollo
<Pap> Bornholio: that is the biggest change, there is going to be fine detail like that on all of them. Inspired by your design of the NTR line of engines
<Theysen> do you screenshot ingame stuff and photoshop them Pap?
<Pap> Theysen: to make the icons?
<Theysen> yas
<Pap> For the planes and Command Modules, where available I use line drawings or blueprints as they are black and white and in the conversion process, it allows the details to pop. I have a simple maccro I made in Photoshop that overlays the gray color and adds the shadow and bevel look
<Pap> For the engines, I actually import the best models that I can find (SSTU and RealEngines mainly) into Blender and use the 3D Render image. Take a screenshot of them and then send them through the filter in Photoshop
<lamont> NCommander: make sure you have Taerobee installed, and RealEngines and probably SSTU — although if you do that your parts will differ somewhat from the parts in the 1.1.3 RP-0 playthrough on youtube which used the SovietEnginePack (which still also works if you want better ‘back-compat’ with the videos, but the engines are not as pretty)
<NCommander> well it looks like CKAN download got stuck
<NCommander> so ugh
<Theysen> Pap, awesome
<lamont> use the command line + do it again and/or just manually curl the files and stick them in the ckan downloads directory
<NCommander> Well I hit cancel and retrying again. I'll do commandline if it gets stuck again
<lamont> `ckan install RealWhatever —no-recommends` is your friend…
<leudaimon|work> at least for the RSS textures I would try something else, never get to finish the dl
<NCommander> It just finished downloading everything
<NCommander> It got stuck on one the Ven parts
<NCommander> yay
<NCommander> it all installed
* NCommander does a test launch
<NCommander> Can't play ATM
<Agathorn> pft I had PEG working in kRPC a year ago.. noobs
<Agathorn> NathanKell|WORK ^^ especially
<NCommander> I *really* wish kOS had a stable syntax
<lamont> did you get 2-stage or N-stage PEG working?
<Agathorn> I ... don't recall to be honest.. but my scripts are onl github
<lamont> i wish kOS didn’t try to be some game-ified and more like a complete programming language with piles of useful library utilities baked in
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<NCommander> kRPC?
<NathanKell|WORK> Agathorn: If I recall, it wasn't exactly working tho
<NathanKell|WORK> which is why I didn't use it :]
<NCommander> Is that the Python/other program language interface?
<Agathorn> not specifically python but yeah
<Agathorn> it lets you use lots of languages
* NCommander could get behind that
<NCommander> Kerboscript drove me mad
<Agathorn> NathanKell|WORK: yeah it worked great for some rockets and not so great for others :D
<Agathorn> I'm sure the problem was my implementation of PEG though because we all know how great I am at rocket science
<NCommander> Module manager is installing patches. The potato's fans spun up
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<lamont> yeah you based on it the orbiterwiki implementation i think
<Agathorn> lamont: browsing quickly over my old scripts, yes it was handling multistages
<Agathorn> probably badly though
<Agathorn> the orbiter wiki one, as well as someone who made a kOS script
<Agathorn> I was working from both sources
<lamont> oh yeah i see Noiredd’s link
<lamont> i’m fairly certain the orbiterwiki guy got some stuff wrong
<Agathorn> mainly the kOS one with the orbiter wiki as notes to help me understand what the heck was happening
<lamont> he’s got one or two obvious typos and then his whole A-, B-, Aold stuff is weird, and not what the real paper uses…
<Agathorn> yeah I recall messing around a lot with that stuff actually
<Agathorn> the real paper was so far over my head I would need the rocket first in order to understand it
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<lamont> yeah i started with the orbiterwiki because it was more accessible, but i’ve pretty much switched to just trusting the paper as i’ve learned how to read it...
<Agathorn> good for you! :)
<lamont> the actual atlas-centaur block diagrams stll have quite a bit of “wut” in them for me still...
<Agathorn> link?
<lamont> page 20/21/22
<NCommander> Well that's promising
<NCommander> I see Africa on the title screen
<lamont> Kopernicus + RSS are loading at least then
<Agathorn> yeah I think thats the same one I had seen
<NathanKell|WORK> NCommander: \o/
* NCommander drops into a sandbox game to check things out
<Agathorn> thank god i'm not tackling this stuff again in Stellar Trail
* NCommander blinks
<Agathorn> the more simple pitch program works well enough
<NCommander> Getting used to the titlted tracking view is going to take some getting used to
<NathanKell|WORK> Agathorn: you'll need it, actually, if you're at all coupling payload / success with visuals
<NathanKell|WORK> Agathorn: If you entirely decouple the sim from the visuals, and just use, say, Schilling's algorithm for the sim, then you're safe.
<NathanKell|WORK> But if you try to get actual *data* results from the ascent, you need good guidance
<Agathorn> yeah the idea for now at least is to decouple them
<Agathorn> though I don't know yet how well that is all going to work
<NCommander> I've got what looks like all the right parts
<NCommander> But the lag is bad
<NathanKell|WORK> then you do it entirely like BARIS where it plays clips
<NathanKell|WORK> NCommander: check log
<NathanKell|WORK> see if something is spamming
<Agathorn> clips yes, just not pre rendered ones
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<NCommander> NathanKell|WORK, nope
<Agathorn> the goal is to make the sim close enough to provide the visuals
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<NCommander> At least not in editor view, but I'm still lagging
<NCommander> Badly
<NathanKell|WORK> huh
<NathanKell|WORK> then something is screwy
<NCommander> It's likely my crappy GPU
<soundnfury> NCommander: check logs, see if something's spamming them?
<soundnfury> that can slow things down as it's got to write it all to disk
<NCommander> nothing spamming in console
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<NCommander> The RO stock crafts show locked/invalid parts :/
<Agathorn> NathanKell|WORK: I think in the end it is definitely going to be a tricky balance - but I think we both know the truth is I would never be good enough to build a 100% accurate sim, so i'll have to cheat where I can
<Agathorn> I mean what I have now, if you have no telemtry, looks plausible from a visuals standpoint
<NCommander> The Saturn V doesn't fit in the VAB right
* NCommander tries flying a rocket to see what its actually like
<NathanKell|WORK> Agathorn: I would therefore suggest using the Schilling algorithm to calculate everything, and then just doing a visual sim, probably with PEG guidance for the uppers.
<NathanKell|WORK> NCommander: Get Hangar Extender, hit numpad * and the walls go away
<Agathorn> that's roughly the plan.. though I was/am hioping the more simplified ascent curve will look good enough
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<NCommander> Well I'm rolling out the Saturn V stock craft right now
<Maxsimal> Pap: Yeah that's one big tech tree. Will be fun digging into this. is there anything you'd want feedback on?
<NCommander> Figure that's a decent test
<NathanKell|WORK> uh....
<NathanKell|WORK> That's about the most complicated thing possible
<lamont> heh, that may be ambitious
<NathanKell|WORK> ^
<Agathorn> damned ninjas
<NathanKell|WORK> I recommend just testing a sounding rocket, then maybe a simple launch vehicle
<NCommander> lamont, NathanKell|WORK: I'm just trying to launch this to see if the system can handle it
<Maxsimal> No, you should launch a space shuttle, even better test for a bigger :P
<NathanKell|WORK> :D
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<Agathorn> why do people lways try to jump into the deep end first :)
<Maxsimal> *beginner
<NathanKell|WORK> The system may *not* be able to handle something like that, if the VAB was already lagging :P
<NathanKell|WORK> heck, I could barely handle something complex, I'd get single-digit FPS
<Agathorn> or maybe the VAB was lagging because he loded a SV into it
<NathanKell|WORK> Agathorn: Heh
<NCommander> It was lagging before that
* xShadowx declares lego saturn complete
<NCommander> This is hilarious
<NCommander> I'm getting a frame per second
<NCommander> literially
<Agathorn> potato
<NCommander> It's getting better
<NCommander> about 10 now
<NCommander> Once I got clear of the smoke cloud
<xShadowx> a potato can get 2 frmes, whats below potato?
<Agathorn> :)
<Agathorn> plebes
<NathanKell|WORK> I highly, highly recommend making a Lean And Mean install first. Then you can add Suggested mods once you've verified everything works well
<NCommander> Real life stable orbit would be about 150x400? I believe that was the RL parking orbit for the saturns
<Probus> Try turning off camera wobble NCommander
<Agathorn> I think 160km is the accepted line in RL
<Agathorn> not that reality really cares about such human defined lines
<NCommander> I remember that the real Apollo missions went into a stupidly low parking orbit to take advantage of Mr Orberth
<NCommander> Yeah, my potato is recovering now that I'm clear of the KSC
<Agathorn> parking obit != stable orbit
<NCommander> Not great
<NCommander> But playable
<NCommander> About 3 seconds RL for every in game second
<NCommander> which is about what I get stock :/
<NCommander> WOOO
<NCommander> it exploded
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<NCommander> Went too fast through the lower atmosphere
<Hypergolic_Skunk> NCommander: it ain't much better on an i7 4790k
<NCommander> A lot of it is playing on Linux
<NCommander> When I had Windows on my desktop, it was a lot smoother
<lamont> i used to run on Linux and it was fine for me
<lamont> and is fine on MAc
<lamont> you may want to reduce your display settings if you have them cranked up to insanity
<NCommander> I already have them cranked down pretty low
<NCommander> Loosing the camera wobble did a massive improvement
<NCommander> Now I get about 1 second in game for every 1.5 real life
<leudaimon|work> have no issues on linux, and my GPU is not great
<Bornholio> i find display settings don't make much difference
<lamont> i’ve got a 4GHz i7 and physics is fine
<NCommander> I'm going to have to re-learn how to gravity turn
<lamont> if i turn up all the graphics to highest it starts to chunk along a bit
<ferram4> NCommander, oh, I dunno if anyone mentioned, but remember to keep your initial TWR relatively low or you will crush your rocket near burnout.
<lamont> i’ve got a GTX 980 for graphics
<lamont> and check the forum threads on linux for perf tips with graphics cards
<lamont> i know with nvidia you typically want the latest nvidia driver builds which are not in the main ubuntu repo
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<Pap> Maxsimal: nothing in particular, it is more just how does it play...is it too grindy, too much science required, too little sceince required, any parts that look crazy out of place, that kinda stuff
* NCommander won't make it into orbit but at least I determined RO is playable
<NCommander> yay
<NCommander> had a staging mishap :)
<lamont> NCommander if you want something less complex you could try Atlas-Agena or Atlas-Mercury — although you’ll need FASA installed and you need to know to stage the boosters off at 134 seconds into flight or you won’t make orbit
<NCommander> I plan to do RP0, this was mostly finding the most complex thing I could launch to see if my PC would melt down
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<NCommander> I'm going to have to learn patience for my launches
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<Maxsimal> Pap: Ok, will do. So far I like it. Definitely like that the crew count records have been switched to requiring orbit
<Pap> Maxsimal: that is a recent change from NK
<Maxsimal> Yeah :) Definitely as an abuseable record. I realize the focus with RP0 is still roleplaying to some extent, but it's nice when it doesn't give you obviously ahistoric but tempting things to do like that.
<NathanKell|WORK> Like a certain unnamed linuxy Brit's Heinkel To Space tricks? :PO
<NathanKell|WORK> s/O//
<Qboid> NathanKell|WORK meant to say: Like a certain unnamed linuxy Brit's Heinkel T Space tricks? :PO
<NathanKell|WORK> wait it's not case sensitive? That's weird.
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<Saabstory88> Afternoon all!
<NathanKell|AWAY> Yo!
<Saabstory88> Taking vacation starting next week after a long slog of a project at work. This is when I will be releasing some development builds of RP-0 Stretchy tanks.
<soundnfury> NathanKell|WORK: you did the same damn thing, just without a heinkel
<soundnfury> and at least I had the restraint _not_ to put a second guy in, even though I _could_ have ;)
<NathanKell|WORK> Ahhh for some reason I remembered you putting two in. Sorry!
<NathanKell|WORK> Saabstory88: awesome!
<Saabstory88> I've made all of the core tank models. Still doing plugin texture scaling optimization
<Saabstory88> Before I've commmited to too many bad texture decisions
<Saabstory88> How's the space race been going?
<NathanKell|WORK> leudaimon is running rings around all of us :D
<Saabstory88> yeah? How far is he?
<NathanKell|WORK> about 3 months ahead of me I think
<soundnfury> he beat your lunar sample return by about 200 days :S
<Pap> holy shit, leudaimon is that far ahead? I thought NK's dates were unreachable (not thought, they were unreachable for me)
<NathanKell|WORK> soundnfury: And I would have done crewed flyby then if not for the failure, so eh. :]
<NathanKell|WORK> But yeah, maybe 3-5 months is a better estimate.
<NathanKell|WORK> He did just have a launch failure but probably not enough to matter
<NathanKell|WORK> That forgotten parachute and the launch failure on Eagle really bit me :]
<NathanKell|WORK> I also rather overestimated the delta V requirements of LSR.
<NathanKell|WORK> Could have done it rather earlier.
<NathanKell|WORK> Unless he does EOR/LOR though he will need to unlock serious hydrolox or upgrade pad to unlimited tonnage, however.
<Saabstory88> does leudaimon have a youtube/twitch archive?
<NathanKell|WORK> (I mean LOR plus EOR--i.e. send up 2 stacks and 2 transfer stages)
<NathanKell|WORK> Alas no, and his forum thread on it hasn't been updated in a bit
<NathanKell|WORK> but you can see some of the LVs
<Saabstory88> on KSP forums?
<NathanKell|WORK> Anybody got the link?
<NathanKell|WORK> yeah
<NathanKell|WORK> I'm at work, so...
<NathanKell|WORK> don't recall it
<NathanKell|WORK> soundnfury also documents, in excellent detail :)
<Saabstory88> soundnfury: got a link?
<soundnfury> Saabstory88: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/161639-ris-competitive-rp-0-career/
<soundnfury> conveniently I was just re-reading it
<soundnfury> which is why I didn't answer Nathan
<soundnfury> Saabstory88: and mine is at http://jttlov.no-ip.org:8081/cruft/ris/index.htm
<Saabstory88> Sweet!
<soundnfury> I like the contrasts between our LV design philosophies, too
<soundnfury> leudaimon builds R-7s, Nathan builds Titans, and I build Atlases
<NathanKell|WORK> Titans and half-Saturn-C-1s, now :)
<soundnfury> NathanKell|WORK: those are still Titans
<NathanKell|WORK> ...uh?
<NathanKell|WORK> Oh, serial stage period
<soundnfury> heck, you're using E-1 lower and LR87-LH2 upper no?
<NathanKell|WORK> HAH
<NathanKell|WORK> right you are
<NathanKell|WORK> well, 2 E-1s, so LDC Titan
<soundnfury> but yeah, I'm talking about serial stage. Big second-stage engines airlighting
<NathanKell|WORK> It is actually LDC Titan diameter, even
<Saabstory88> Always interesting to see how everyone solves the problem
<Saabstory88> My stategy lately has been Thrust Augmented Titans with Agena uppers
<soundnfury> then again, my latest & biggest Atlas has 3 E-1s instead of a pile of LR79/89s
<soundnfury> Of course, there's always the _little_ launches, don't forget the cheap satellite loft on a Thor-Agena (or even Thor-Able) :)
<Saabstory88> Thor is such a great system.
<NathanKell|WORK> Have you seen ferram4's Thoropa series?
<Saabstory88> nope
<NathanKell|WORK> ferram4: thou art summoned
<Saabstory88> Cool!
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<Maxsimal> well, if you guys ever decide you want to try another race with Pap's new tree, I'm game, watching NK's videos has been a lot of fun. But 2 people in a heinkel to get the 2 man contract is nothing compared to what I did slapping 2 otter cabins in a two-headed monstrosity to put 10 up.
<Pap> Maxsimal: How good are you?
<Maxsimal> Pap: At abusing the game? :P
<Pap> Yes, basically!
<Pap> I play, but not like these other guys!
<Maxsimal> Pap: Good I'd say? Buildingt game systems is my job, so it's kind of second nature to see what's unbalanced when I play for fun.
<egg|anbo|egg> NCommander: NathanKell|WORK: ferram4: INDEED, PRINCIPIA :D
<egg|anbo|egg> also Sarbian's n-body nyancats
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<Maxsimal> I'm not quite the builder NK is, I couldn't have pulled off that unguided moon orbit that he did without seeing him do it. But I would have had a karman line manned on day 1, I dunno why noone did that (unless there were ground rules on just how much build acceleration you could do)
<egg|anbo|egg> n-nyancat
<Bornholio> Thrust specific impulse in vacuum, kgf·сs/kg (m/c) 910 (8927) anyone an expert at interpreting russian stats making sure this is 910ISP, Ve=8927
<Pap> See Maxsimal now I won't play with you
<Pap> Maxsimal: they didn't do it day one becasue the contract wasn't available from the start, it was only after the first launch
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<leudaimon> ^
<leudaimon> and also, even if you put all points available at the VAB, you can't do that before day 7-8
<Maxsimal> I know Pap. What you do is build a ~450,000 dollar suborbital manned hopper as a unitary ship, launch it to complete the first contract, recover to VAB, rollout it out and relaunch it, etc.
<leudaimon> Maxsimal, for a manned suborbital you need to return something from a suborbital flight before that
<NCommander> Part of me is somewhat curious how Dark MP would work with realism overhaul
<NathanKell|WORK> Maxsimal: Contract gating. You need uncrewed Karman first IIRC (at the very least you need Crewed Sound Barrier)
<NathanKell|WORK> Ah leudaimon's right, sorry
<NathanKell|WORK> I'm thinking old contracts again
<Maxsimal> Yes, the trick is you don't have to launch it with a pilot aboard the first time. ;) You can make it suficiently aerodynamically stable so it flips as it renters, giving you the time to fire the retros you have to put on it (otherwise you can't make it reusable since you don't have supersonic wings yet)
* NCommander vaguely wonders if there's enough interesting to do a DMP server ...
<NathanKell|WORK> I looked into DMP for GoForLaunch, it was Hard (tm)
<Pap> NCommander: isn't there another MP option now?
<NCommander> DMP was the only one I was aware of for 1.2
<Pap> The problem with DMP for RO is that the build time for rockets is sometimes an hour, there goes most of a play sessino
<Pap> s/sessino/session
<Qboid> Pap meant to say: The problem with DMP for RO is that the build time for rockets is sometimes an hour, there goes most of a play session
<NCommander> Pap, I'd honestly just treat it as Minecraft, and leave a persistant server where people can come and go freely
<Pap> I gotcha, can't say I have played with DMP, always been scared of it ;)
<NCommander> Well, I won't mind another multiplayer game
<NCommander> I used to have a relatively nice Minecraft private group that self-destructed due to drama. My last trip to public servers reminded me why I stopped doing that years ago
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<Maxsimal> Off to bed :) G'night
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<NathanKell|WORK> hey soundnfury do you know of any pre-1980s British spaceplane designs?
<NathanKell|WORK> I know of only the Avro waverider concepts
<NathanKell|WORK> Pre 1980s, Bornholio ;)
<Pap> Bornholio: as the resident knower of Iconic imagery, ideas on what types of icons we should have for the Flight Control / Docking branch?
<Bornholio> lol that is not my expertise. I'll give it a thought
<Bornholio> I worry about doing a google search for such terms...
<Bornholio> major tom and ... rule 34
<NathanKell|WORK> Ah, hmm, guess I need to get British Secret Projects the hypersonics/ramjets/missiles volume
<NathanKell|WORK> Has an interesting cover: http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/BACEAG4396.jpg
<Bornholio> pretty PopMech arts
<Bornholio> maybe BIS has something fun
<Bornholio> nope just skylon
<NathanKell|WORK> Ah dang it was A.W. not Avro.
* NCommander takes a break from work and plays a bit of realism overhaul
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<leudaimon> Pap, what about RCS thrusters for flight control, and a pair of docked capsules for docking?
<NathanKell|WORK> Yeah, I'm looking for early stuff, stuff that could have been done by 65 or so tops
<NathanKell|WORK> DynaSoar era, basically
* NCommander wonders how badly I'm going to fail for my first career mode playthrough
<Pap> Ah, then the British versino is DynaSoaur /s
* NCommander is however going to disable KCT simulation costs
<NathanKell|WORK> Hmm. I wonder if someone did a Hermes for KSP?
<NCommander> Always hated those
<NathanKell|WORK> Pap: Heh
<NathanKell|WORK> NCommander: Sadly KCT doesn't do sims anymore :(
<NathanKell|WORK> you can use KRASH tho
<NCommander> Is KRASH not included in the recommended set?
<Pap> NCommander: are you using the new Tech Tree?
<NCommander> I just got the recommended pack
<NCommander> I just got CKAN installed and tested it a few hours ago
<Pap> No KRASH was not included in recommended
* NCommander will use the old school revert flight then :)
<NCommander> Since I'm too lazy to fire up CKAN again to get it
<Pap> lol
<lamont> revert flight is good because you can decide how badly to flog yourself or not
<NathanKell|WORK> ^
* NCommander will however leave perma-death on
<NCommander> Pap, if the new tech tree is installed, I will use it, otherwise you need point me where to get it
<NathanKell|WORK> Play hard with quickload/revert on, that's probably needed to recover from a bug if it happens anyway :)
<Pap> NCommander: it is not installed through CKAN, still going through some testing
<NathanKell|WORK> (I play hard with them off, but do save, and quit to main menu and fiddle saves if necessary)
<NathanKell|WORK> I'd say worth playing the dev branch, it's so much better. Pap?
<NCommander> Works for me. I'm debating if I want to require Entry Purchase
<leudaimon> Entry purchase is mostly mandatory in a RP-0 game I think
<NCommander> Pap, I have a distinct lack of monodevelop to compile mods
<Pap> They are compiled, all you need is the RO folder from GameData and the RP-0 folder from GameData
<Pap> Delete the old ones and replace with these
<NCommander> How stable is it?
<NCommander> i.e., I don't want to delete an RP-0 file after I get a few dozen hours in it
<Pap> Extremely stable, nothing tested past 1965 yet
<NCommander> Ugh, that's a slight catch-22. Either I start on the old tree, and then have to manually jigger it to the new one (unless you reused ID nodes)
<NCommander> Or do the manual update dance