ferram4 changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | Maximal & soundnfury's RP-1 Race Into Space Signup: http://bit.ly/2DEVm2i [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator"
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<Starwaster> Even though I know it's Thor-Able I always (in my mind) see it as thorable.... something that could be thorred....
<awang_> schnobs: What do you mean by proc avionics input?
<schnobs> I thought you were asking about wether it's alright...?
<schnobs> ahm, sorry, just got up and haven't even had my first coffee.
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<schnobs> How is rollout cost calculated?
<schnobs> I see a formula in KCT but that can't possibly cover all of it.
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<awang_> schnobs: That's fine, I've been running around with my hair on fire
<awang_> Slightly scatterbrained right now
<awang_> And I think the rollout cost formula in KCT is all there is?
<schnobs> It uses two undocumented variables.
<schnobs> I can't believe that we represent it all using two static figures... rather I assume that these a pre-calculated on the RP-0 side from more input.
<schnobs> Sorry, not "static" of course.
<schnobs> From limited experiments, I'm unconvinced. I don't like the effect a single solar panel has on rollout cost, for starters, and in my limited scope (pre-mercury) liquid boosters are easier than solids.
<schnobs> Like, a XASR upper stage is cheaper than any kind of Altair or BabySeargeants.
<schnobs> That said, what put your hair on fire?
<soundnfury> schnobs: solar panels are expensive (part-cost-wise). And solids are just overpriced generally, for some reason.
<schnobs> soundnfury: IIRC it's part of our part prices being "manufactory cost" -- solids come loaded and ready, after all.
<schnobs> The main driver behind adding rollout cost is to make up for that.
<schnobs> But given the state of my game, it could be Special Circumstances. Maybe big solids scale better, idk.
<soundnfury> nah I think we just haven't got the formulæ/balancing right for them v0v
<awang_> schnobs: Oh, right. The ones related to multipliers?
<awang_> They're documented, just in code :P
<awang_> Documentation is no fun
<schnobs> I know.
<schnobs> I see source files named tooling and maintenance, but nothing says rollout.
<schnobs> Have to run now, but if you could leave me a pointer that would be most kind.
<awang_> Too many projects have my hair on fire :(
<awang_> And they all involve user interaction, so they're incredibly painful to work with
<schnobs> And here i am shoving more on your plate. Sorry.
<awang_> schnobs: Tooling/maintenance are entirely RP-0 stuff, aren't they?
<awang_> Rollout is entirely KCT
<awang_> Hey, I always have time for KSP
<awang_> Especially if it means I don't have to work on user interfaces
<awang_> s/KSP/RP-0
<Qboid> awang_ meant to say: Hey, I always have time for RP-0
<schnobs> OK, grocer closes in 8 minutes, then suppertime. I'll try to be back later.
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<stratochief> Starwaster: thorable, with sthorable propellents for the upper stage
<Starwaster> stratochief well aint that just athorable...
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<Probus> o/
<stratochief> Starwaster: <3
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<schnobs> Something seems to be wrong here.
<Starwaster> schnobs what determines that?
<schnobs> By comparison, an Atlas-Vega plus payload comes to a hundred days.
<Starwaster> do things get easier/quicker to build if you build them often?
<schnobs> Not that I'm aware of, but I didn't pay too close attention.
<schnobs> And don't get me wrong, a spaceplane is complicated... being more expensive / having a longer build time than the rocket it rides on seems fair.
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<schnobs> But that much?
<Starwaster> schnobs yeah I dunno, it seems high alright. I haven't actually used KCT so I don't know why that would be.
<Starwaster> dammit, no knowledgeable people responding to my cry for help about cryogenics and refrigeration costs (electric-wise)
<schnobs> Are there no data sheets that list power demands?
<schnobs> you're not really interested in nitrogen, are you?
<Bornholio> liquid oxygen is quite a bit more power, and lhyd is a butt tun more https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287708500_Oxygen_Specific_Power_Consumption_Comparison_for_Air_Separation_Units
<Starwaster> schnobs there's information for specific applications and temperatures but not that tells me enough to come up with energy costs for a range of temperatures from 20K - 90K (or actually higher for methane and ammonia)
<Bornholio> liquid methane should have a lot of scholarly articles since its very widely liquified for transport
<Starwaster> plus I think some of the different sheets I was consulting were for different efficiencies and it was probably wrong of me to try to patch them all together into unified curve
<Starwaster> bornholio ok, again, very specific application for specific temperature range. I don't know how to generalize that :(
<Starwaster> see what I have now is a curve but is that right? Should it be more linear?
<Starwaster> I don't know
<Bornholio> correct, compressability makes it easier, liquid temp reducing harder. and no good way to generallize excepth through enthalpy tables
<Starwaster> which is why I need help from someone with practical knowledge in the field
<schnobs> Starwaster: this is more ISRU than zero-Boiloff, I gather?
<Bornholio> and then you need to know your heat inputs to account for those losses (which you have most well known)
<Starwaster> no schnobs it's for Heat Pumps so that I know what electrical costs they need to consume
<Bornholio> long term cryo storage generally is dependant on re-compression (brayton cycle )
<Starwaster> bornholio, do you know enough on the subject to write up a new curve?
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<Bornholio> problem is the temps that you want are too low for common knowledge to be used, plus the iffyness of when you have to loose the efficiency transitionisng to dual stage
<schnobs> From the limited reading I've done on ordinary cryocoolers, they expect their heatsink to be about 300-320K. Right?
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<schnobs> Do any of them give numbers about heatsink size, or simply state how many W they need to shed?
<Starwaster> depending on how much of a factor that is then a simple FloatCurve might not be sufficient for realism, in which case I'm totally stumped and again need someone who KNOWS
<Starwaster> otherwise I guess I just have to go with what I have now
<Bornholio> except thats too much for hydrogen, so you have to have one cooler operating in the cryo range then a second cooling that ones output to well below room temp. SW have you check the ISRU guys yet have they released the lunar research stuff yet?
<Starwaster> no idea
<Bornholio> k i'll dig
<schnobs> Bornholio: I know.
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<schnobs> What I was ultimately trying to get at: for in-space purposes you may end up needing a three-stage cooler. The last one not actually cryo- but keeping the heatsink at "about room temp", and I think this could be sanely based off the ISS panels. They operate in that range.
<Bornholio> hey starwaster https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110016177.pdf gasloop broad area coolers
<Bornholio> A RTBC concept proposed by Boeing[9] provides 80W of cooling at 95K and simultaneously provides 10W at 22K.
<Bornholio> and still no good power requirements
<Bornholio> hey starwaster actual cryocooler efficiencies https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170011674.pdf
<Bornholio> page 5
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