ferram4 changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | Maximal & soundnfury's RP-1 Race Into Space Signup: http://bit.ly/2DEVm2i [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator"
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<schnobs>
Starwaster: sorry that I can't help you. I've become reasonably competent at doing it by hand a long time ago, and just didn't spend much time with PEG.
<soundnfury>
Starwaster: afraid all I can suggest is to forget PEG and use konrad
<schnobs>
In other news, CKAN SSL issues persist for me. I almost didn't notice, though...
<soundnfury>
and that's my solution to everything xD
<schnobs>
Mods with a sufficiently liberal license are uploaded to archive.org, which CKAN uses as a fallback. So it seems to work just fine.
<soundnfury>
with its numbers I can fly (almost) as precisely as PEG
<schnobs>
Until you get to a mod with a more restrictive license. In my case, RealChutes, Firespitter, and FAR.
<soundnfury>
and because it's human-in-the-loop, you never have the problem of "why TF did it do _that_ crazy thing?"
<soundnfury>
otoh you do have to supply the understanding; it'll tell you where you're going, but if that's not where you _want_ to go, it won't tell you how to get _there_ instead ;)
<Raidernick>
schnobs, i decided to just use time control when rendezvous
<Raidernick>
then you can time warp and it won't skip the orbits around
<Raidernick>
kind of annoying to have to do that but at least it fixes the problem sorta
<schnobs>
Raidernick: "time control"?
<Raidernick>
it's a mod that instead of using w/e warp code ksp uses
<Raidernick>
it advances the entire game forward
<Raidernick>
so it gets around that bug
<schnobs>
Good to know. I'll keep that in mind for my next RV.
<Raidernick>
i don't know how it plays with tacls and boiloff
<Raidernick>
like resource consumption mods
<Raidernick>
that run in the background
<Raidernick>
i'd assume it's ok
<Raidernick>
i only use it for short bursts during dokcing
<Raidernick>
never tried it for months/years
<Raidernick>
to see how it affects those
<schnobs>
TACLS doesn't update that often and probaly queries the game about how much time has passed.
<Raidernick>
yeah it still causes time to pass
<Raidernick>
just does it differently
<Raidernick>
i think it advances the entire engine
<Raidernick>
similar to what happens if your fps is uncapped
<Raidernick>
when it causes physics to happen faster than they should
<schnobs>
Hmm. The "Just tool it all" button still hasn't been merged, I notice.
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<schnobs>
Getting RP-1 to work was easy, overall. By now, most everything is on CKAN. Only manual installs were TF, KerbalRenamer and ProcWings.
<schnobs>
(for ksp 1.3.1)
<schnobs>
Raidernick: I'd like to express my gratitude for pushing the release.
<Raidernick>
i didnt do it
<schnobs>
not even the pushing?
<Raidernick>
nope
<schnobs>
well, then. I probably put my foot in it.
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<blowfish>
evening
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<blowfish>
camost: since when is helicopter_redo the default branch?
<blowfish>
*camlost
<blowfish>
camlost: I would prefer to keep master as the default branch and make any releases off of that. I'm fine with prereleases being made off of other branches (those won't get indexed by CKAN).
<blowfish>
Is that actually NathanKell or the ghost of NathanKell's recently-disconnected bouncer?
<soundnfury>
oh, probably the latter :(
* soundnfury
wasn't quite paying attention to things that weren't spitfires at that point
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<egg|zzz|egg>
Raidernick: meow
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<Maxsimal>
o/
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<BadRocketsCo>
Howdy
<Qboid>
BadRocketsCo: awang left a message for you in #RO [07.04.2018 18:02:06]: "I think ferram is actually working on something like that"
<BadRocketsCo>
Uu, nice. Procedural engines would be great
<Maxsimal>
Hey BRC. How're things going? Been a bit busy lately but I saw the massive flurry of release activity - is 1.3.1 RP-1 from ckan a done deal now?
<BadRocketsCo>
Maxsimal: not sure. Haven't checked yet.
<BadRocketsCo>
I'll be home in a hour, I can check then if you want to.
<Maxsimal>
Nah it's ok
<Maxsimal>
Was just curious, I'm sticking with the golden spreadsheet build I had working for now.
<BadRocketsCo>
Alright :)
<BadRocketsCo>
Maxsimal: got any ongoing projects?
<Probus>
o/
<Qboid>
Probus: taniwha left a message for you in #RO [08.04.2018 15:38:54]: "it seems to work"
<BadRocketsCo>
Heyya Probus
<BadRocketsCo>
Zup?
<Probus>
Not much BadRocketsCo
<BadRocketsCo>
Alright
<BadRocketsCo>
Got any cool projects in KSP?
<Probus>
Not a one. Just been messing around with the new parts. How about you?
<BadRocketsCo>
Nothing much yet. Just doing some Gemini stuff atm and researching Apollo hardware.
<BadRocketsCo>
I want to do a Apollo-Venus mission in the future though
<BadRocketsCo>
Going to launch a probe to test out a earth return trajectory
<Probus>
That's a big project.
<BadRocketsCo>
Tbh then I will completely eyeball it
<taniwha>
Probus: I haven't done thorough testing, but Kethane's grid comes up and is controllable.
<BadRocketsCo>
Yup. Pretty excited to get to it.
<Probus>
OK, Thanks taniwha
<Probus>
BadRocketsCo, Are you playing with RP0?
<BadRocketsCo>
Yeah, for the time being.
<BadRocketsCo>
Don't really feel like reatarting when I am already doing Gemini stuff
<Probus>
No kidding
<BadRocketsCo>
Restarting*
<BadRocketsCo>
Is RP1 on CKAN now?
<BadRocketsCo>
I tried doing a manual install some time ago but I couldn't get the tooling window to work.
<BadRocketsCo>
As if in, it just didn't load into the game
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<Maxsimal>
BadRocketsCo: Sorry went afk, I'm at work. Well, I was playing RIS with soundnfury and Bornholio, but I think we stalled because I play slow and Bornholio go sidetracked being a good modder.
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<schnobs>
o/
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<rsparkyc>
well, i tried to RSS to work on 1.4.2 with latest Kopernicus and ModularFlightIntegrator, but I keep geting spammed with NREs when switching to the main menu screen
<rsparkyc>
plus, the logs say it faild to load Ceres
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<schnobs>
what mod ist responsible for honoring tech level requirements for engine upgrades?
<schnobs>
I know they're set by RP-0, but their application is... where? RF? RO?
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<schnobs>
Anyhoo, in my current install I can get upgrade to any engine type as soon as I have the base model. Cost modifiers are not applied, though, so "later" types are quite expensive.
<awang>
schnobs: I think it's RF
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<schnobs>
Hello awang!
<schnobs>
Say, would you terribly mind making a PR of the "tool it all" button? It was a major quality of life improvement.
<awang>
Hi!
<awang>
Sure
<awang>
Looks like I have the branch all ready, just need to make the PR
<awang>
Actually
<awang>
It might be a bit, since I need to recompile the DLLs
<awang>
And I can't recompile on Mac :(
<awang>
I should probably find a way to list exactly what is getting tooled and how much it costs
<schnobs>
awang: the RP-0 window already does that. For every untooled part it lists tooling/untooled/tooled cost.
<schnobs>
..then leaves it to the player to crawl over the vessel and interact with the repective PAWs. Hence my "for crissakes".
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<awang>
schnobs: Right, I just thought it would be nice to have a list for the button itself
<awang>
...Unless the button is already in the tooling window
<awang>
I don't remember
<awang>
Been too long :(
<schnobs>
That's where you put it, yes.
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<awang>
Oh, ok
<awang>
Never mind then
<awang>
I should really start looking into getting the RO stuff to a Sarbian-style setup
<awang>
Build the DLLs elsewhere, use the repo just for the source
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<schnobs>
One of these days I might ask you for a primer/course about how I could compile stuff myself. Not today, though.
<awang>
It's not too bad
<awang>
Most mods have things mostly set up
<awang>
Usually it's just pointing Visual Studio at your KSP install
<schnobs>
linux here. I guess that's not a showstopper, but IDK.
<awang>
Hm
<awang>
I'd have to look around for that
<awang>
Not that that's a problem, of course
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<zilti>
What's the standard strategy to fix it when the physics jerk destroys the plane wheels?
<schnobs>
zilti: hacked gravity?
<schnobs>
I presume the situation where fixing a wheel causes the vehicle to jerk, immediately breaking it again (or another wheel).
<schnobs>
In that case, hacked gravity is just what the doctor ordered.
<schnobs>
Dunno how it plays with Principia, though...
<zilti>
Hmm. Well I don't feel like hacking the gravity. I added legs now though, which I retract after the physics jerk. Am testing it now
<zilti>
Oh. Now the game crashed. Heh.
<awang>
Principia doesn't have an effect on vessels if they're inside an atmosphere
<awang>
At least not yet
<awang>
So hacking gravity should produce normal-ish results, from what I understand
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<schnobs>
awang: I was more wondering about other vessels being elsewhere.
<schnobs>
In the stock model, hacking gravity has no real effect on unloaded vessels.
<schnobs>
Their orbital velocity is shown as reduced and they move to other positions depending on gravity, but once gravity is restored, they're back where they should be.
<schnobs>
A nice side-effect of kepler mechanics.
<schnobs>
but with principia constantly updating the situation of everything... there might be side effects.
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<Shoe17>
hows principia without RO?
<awang>
schnobs: Ah, I see
<awang>
IIRC Principia is pretty opinionated about where vessels should be
<awang>
And generally ignores any attempt to move them
<awang>
I guess that would include hacking gravity?
<schnobs>
awang: in stock, they move because their position is derived from orbital parameters + corrent gravity. That's also how they get back when gravity is restored.
<awang>
Shoe17: They don't really interact, IMNHSO, so you can just treat it like a regular install
<awang>
s/IMNHSO/IMNSHO
<Qboid>
awang meant to say: Shoe17: They don't really interact, IMNSHO, so you can just treat it like a regular install
<awang>
Well, a regular install with more fun trajectories
<schnobs>
I'd expect things to be different if the position is updated every so often.
<awang>
schnobs: From what I understand, Principia literally doesn't care
<awang>
The vessel goes where Principia says it should go, period
<awang>
So HyperEdit doesn't work
<awang>
Nor the cheat menu
<awang>
...Wait
<awang>
I think I see your point
<awang>
It depends on how Principia calculates gravitational force
<awang>
I'm guessing that it is using something entirely distinct from KSP, because the algorithms used take very different parameters
<awang>
(or at least from the little I know)
<awang>
It has a sol_gravity_model.cfg, at the very least
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<Maxsimal>
Does anyone know what's up with NK now?
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<zilti>
NK as in North Korea?
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<awang>
Maxsimal: IIRC he's on a break after some fun events in his personal life
<zilti>
Oh. I got it airborne. It has the aerodynamic stability of a dead dog launched by a trebuchet
<camlost>
upload to a streaming site
<Qboid>
camlost: blowfish left a message for you in #RO [08.04.2018 18:17:35]: "I think you forgot to update all the version files"
<zilti>
camlost: on which one?
<camlost>
zilti: does it matter?
<zilti>
Apparently. Plus I don't know any to just share "snippets"
<camlost>
i doubt anyone is downloading to see your video
<zilti>
You don't have to, you can just stream it
<schnobs>
camlost: I, too, don't like to sign up with a service just to quickly share a file.
<schnobs>
(also looked at the clip, cannot really coment)
<schnobs>
Looks like it struggles to get airborne, then loses control when almost-but-not-quite flying.
<schnobs>
As you say it's hard to control, that's probably it.
<schnobs>
Other than that, my only suggestion is that you should try to keep her down on the runway (using controls) until you're really fast enough to take off.
<zilti>
Apparently I have to balance it until it is airborne, and then immediately pull down so it doesn't make a backflip
<awang>
schnobs: I'll try to remember to watch that when I get back
<awang>
egg|zzz|egg: Glad to hear that Principia avoids even more of the KSP mess :P
<awang>
I am kind of curious what messing with the parameters would do, but I'd guess that would result in an apocalypse pretty fast
<awang>
zilti: gfycat seems to take videos without an account
<awang>
That's what I've been using whenever I posted something to IRC
<zilti>
awang: Interesting, I'll try that.
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<zilti>
gfycat truly is a gem of an upload page. Takes ten minutes to upload, encodes the video and truncates it down to 20 seconds without telling so in advance.
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<zilti>
schnobs: Oh and I found out that trying to keep it down just makes the swerving left and right completely uncontrollable
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<schnobs>
zilti: I'm not much of an airplane guy, sorry. The next best thing I can think of is that your wheels might be crooked (always fix them with the rotating gizmo). If that's not it, either, then i din't know.
<probus_>
Has anyone tried a manned mission to Mars or Venus in RO?
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<schnobs>
long tim ago, I have. might have been KSP 1.1.3 or thereabouts.
<schnobs>
basically yes. At some point all mission panning went out the window and I made things up as I went, but yes, it worked.
<schnobs>
^my lander.
<Probus>
Wowsaa!
<schnobs>
BigG holds 9, the lower parts was crew modules for the extended stay.
<Probus>
Solid rockets to get back to orbit?
<Probus>
Or are the liquid fueled engines in there too?
<schnobs>
For the first part of the ascent, yes. Firing alongside a pair of AJ-10s, IIRC.
<Probus>
Did it work?
<schnobs>
Emphatically, yes. The lander did work, ascent too.
<schnobs>
Was a lot of developemnt work, and struggling with the game.
<schnobs>
For one thing, there's only one lander engine, the lunar one. of which I needed many.
<Probus>
I wonder how much more stable that craft would be in 1.3.1
<schnobs>
The other, all the resources and stuff were rather heavy. Eventually I started to mount spoilers (extendable control surfaces) for extra drag.
<Probus>
Landing is the hard part of a Mars trip. Taking off is relatively easy I believe.
<schnobs>
At the rear, a nerva. 15min burn time or thereabouts. (planning that burn was a thing in intself)
<Probus>
Nuke engines the way to go then.
<schnobs>
In the middle, Skylab + storable stage for Mars insertion (one of the proton uppers, IIRC)
<schnobs>
Later, 4x Agena to get back from mars.
<Probus>
So when you got back to orbit, you docked with the Agena stage?
<schnobs>
On top, the Big Gemini with surface habitat, and it's backpack Service module.
<schnobs>
Youp, the whole gemini was brought back to earth as return vehicle.
<schnobs>
The service module is mostly supplies, and lots of space for trash. Plus a little fuel for de-orbit.
<Probus>
What do the Nuke engines use for Fuel, Hydrogen right?
<schnobs>
yes, that's why it's so large.
<Probus>
You had room for 9, how many did you bring?
<schnobs>
9, I think?
<Probus>
You had supplies for 9?!?
<schnobs>
There was the skylab as interplanetary habitat, and the lander (though you may not see it) has not only two 4-man lander cans, but a Gemini MOL in the center.
<schnobs>
910t at transfer burn, 624t after(?) -- though apparently the Nuke remained attached until mars arrivel, at which point gross mass was 515t.
<Probus>
Can you keep hydrogen that long?
<schnobs>
Nope, certainly not. Maybe as a power source, or I simply forgot to get rid of it.
<schnobs>
Eventually, 130t went down to mars, behind a 10m heat shield (the biggest there was).
<schnobs>
Did I mention that this was way too much mass for too little drag?
<schnobs>
It bears repeating.
<Probus>
Can you generate hydrogen once you get to mars?
<schnobs>
Nope, it was all storable propellants.
<schnobs>
Can you believe me that I didn't take a screenshot with anone on the surface?
<Probus>
Forgot to pack a camera :)
<schnobs>
At some point, there were six people in the Skylab. Comparing names, I arrive at a minimum of seven on the mission. Honestly can't tell you how many went to the surface.
<camlost>
zilti:seems like your landing gears are a problem
<camlost>
the only reason that old propeller planes use tailwheel conformation is that their engine's in the nose
<zilti>
camlost: I solved the swerving and takeoff-yaw problem now by moving the turbines further to the front so the main wing elevons are behind the exhaust
<zilti>
It's still ridiculously unstable as in it stalls extremely quicky, and as soon as it's stalled there's no way to recover
<camlost>
i don't think FAR calculated exhaust
<camlost>
it's about landing gear and CoM
<zilti>
Well, it's the only change I made, and now it takes off smoothly
<camlost>
you moved the engines of course the CoM shifts
<zilti>
The CoM did barely shift and wasn't the problem. The center of thrust is now in front of the elevons.
<camlost>
wtf is center of thrust
<camlost>
does a vector has a center?
<lamont>
engine thrust forces have a position that they’re applied to the craft
<lamont>
each one applies a torque to a lever arm around the CoM, but for symmetric vehicles the torques all trivially cancel
<camlost>
a position is not a center
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<lamont>
the sum over all the thrust forces produces the center of thrust and the total thrust magnitude
<schnobs>
maybe "origin" would suit you better?
<camlost>
it's about physics not a word game
<schnobs>
Because said vector starts at a point.
<camlost>
still not a center
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<camlost>
if that point moves along the direction of the vector, nothing changes, so not a center
<zilti>
It's even called "Center of Thrust overlay" in KSP
<schnobs>
Now go tell that to the forum. And reddit. And all the youtubers, and Squad, and...
<camlost>
seems whoever writes that layer has limited knowledge of physics
<schnobs>
Once upon a time, 1g was 9.82kmg/ms²
<schnobs>
I was willing to join the choire and demand it to be changed.
<schnobs>
"Center of thrust" doesn't light my fire in the same way, or at all.
<camlost>
I don't know what you're trying to say, but a force clearly can't have a center
<lamont>
if your center of thrust is misaligned with your center of mass you’ll get torque and your craft will spin (assuming the engines can’t gimbal enough to align the COT/COM) and you can yell at those words all you like but that’s what is gonna happen
<lamont>
(and whatever you call it, its perfectly accurate physics)
<camlost>
zilti assumes something changes because his "center of thrust" changes, that's definitely wrong
<ferram4>
camlost is correct and there is no point in defining an actual center. It's just a line through space.
<ferram4>
Fixing a position along that line to place an arrow only makes any logical sense from the point of view of making the visualization convenient
<camlost>
or the engine gimbals
<ferram4>
Same as with center of lift or aerodynamic enter, however you want to call it.
<ferram4>
The aerodynamic forces are in a line. Only thing important is displaying that vector somewhere where it is easily usable
<ferram4>
And also, zilti, whatever changes you made, the elevons being in the exhaust does nothing. FAR has no effective way to calculate the effects of that.
<zilti>
ferram4: but if the evelons are above-front or above-back of the "Center of Thrust" does. It's like front steering vs. rear steerin?
<ferram4>
No, because the elevons do not act on the center of thrust
<ferram4>
The way they affect the vehicle depends on where they're placed relative to the center of mass
<camlost>
zilti: look at the distance between CoM and your landing gears, that's what make difference
<ferram4>
zilti, I can't tell you what the problem is, but I can tell you that something aerodynamic is broken.
<camlost>
aircraft's a lever and landing gear is falcrum
<ferram4>
zilti, You have FAR installed, but the CoL still provides an arrow rather than being rendered as a single ball somewhere behind/in front of the CoM. So something else is providing aerodynamic forces
<zilti>
Well yes, an arrow that points straight up
<ferram4>
Which it should not
<ferram4>
There should be no arrow
<ferram4>
That's not the way things are displayed when FAR is working perfectly, which means that you're using some mod that has parts that are adding additional aerodynamic forces
<schnobs>
^didn't know that.
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<Rokker>
Bornholio: I'm hearing reports that some TLAMs have been launched in the med
<Bornholio>
yeah, should have happened sooner, real tho?
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<Rokker>
Bornholio: iunno
<Rokker>
Bornholio: I think we need to bring back nuclear armed tomahawks, just cause we can
<Bornholio>
eh, no thanks, they are shot down to easy
<Rokker>
Bornholio: not to use them necessarily
<Rokker>
just to say we have them
<Bornholio>
well russia is violating "All" the treaties except test ban so why not. Honestly we don't need another round of escalations
<Rokker>
Bornholio: escalation is fun
<Bornholio>
“Israel’s Missile Defense Organization and the US Missile Defense Agency officials conducted the flight test. The main contractor for the integration and development of the Sparrow is Rafael and the main contractor of the Arrow Weapon System is MLM of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) in conjunction with Boeing,” the statement explained.
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<Rokker>
mmmm, israel
<Bornholio>
i suppose the inbound will happen a bit after dark.
<Bornholio>
nice Notice to airmen
<Rokker>
I wonder what the targets will be and how effective they will be
<Rokker>
Bornholio: Syrian airspace has been cleared for like 2 hours now
<Rokker>
Russian choppers moving out of some airbases
<Bornholio>
i'd guess tonight will be air defense roundup
<Bornholio>
ground effects early then bunker slamming later in the morning
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<Rokker>
fun
<Bornholio>
Eurocontrol alert said: “Due to the possible launch of air strikes into Syria with air-to-ground and/or cruise missiles within the next 72 hours, and the possibility of intermittent disruption of radio navigation equipment, due consideration needs to be taken when planning flight operations in the Eastern Mediterranean / Nicosia FIR area.”
<Bornholio>
yeah, pretty disappointed last time chemical weapons got used clearly and little action occured
<Rokker>
Bornholio: we should bring back the 747 missile truck concept
<Bornholio>
no
<Bornholio>
you hate bomob loaders don't you
<Bornholio>
bomb
<Bornholio>
:P
<Rokker>
Bornholio: no, I just like the idea of a 747 pooping out 72 cruise missiles
<Rokker>
Bornholio: apparently it might have also had ICBM pooping capabilities, which would make it the second ICBM pooping plane