TheKosmonaut changed the topic of #KSPOfficial to: Kerbal Space Program official channel | KSP 1.⑨.1, NaN is doing | Rules: tinyurl.com/KSP-Rules | "modcall" to call ops | Δ🅅 maps: https://i.imgur.com/CHVnEeE.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/gBoLsSt.png | Type "chanlog" for logs | 2020 rover is Perseverance | Practice social distancing, join IRC TODAY!
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<hatrix>
the rocket engine is useless though, not powerfull enough
<hatrix>
well, it lands correctly at least
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<Lyneira>
I mean whether it stays stable in roll when you turn off SAS
<Lyneira>
And don't touch the controls
<hatrix>
hmm
<hatrix>
let's try that
<Lyneira>
If not then in some situations the instability could potentially overpower SAS or at the very least make it impractical to fly with SAS off and using trim to fly
<Lyneira>
Not a necessity of course, trim flying is a bit of a niche thing
<hatrix>
I just know trims are really important to be checked when taking off
<hatrix>
otherwise the plane would stall and you'd die
<hatrix>
don't know enough about the physics though :/
<hatrix>
the current plane is too maneuverable, it reacts too much to my inputs
<hatrix>
Lyneira: it pitches down when I turn of SAS
<Lyneira>
that's normal
<Althego>
that is what creates stability
<Althego>
lift behind com
<Lyneira>
set trim (alt + up arrow) to a slight pitch up to counter that and see if it stays stable in roll
<Lyneira>
Once it stays more or less level in pitch you could tap q or e briefly to see what happens when you add a slight instability
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<hatrix>
ok now it pitches up a bit Lyneira :)
<hatrix>
ok now it's quite stable!
<hatrix>
pitches a bit up still when going at mach 1
<hatrix>
it stays angled when rolling Lyneira
<Lyneira>
So neutrally stable in roll, that's good, especially for an anhedral design
<Lyneira>
Actually try tapping a or d for a bit of yaw instability and see if it starts rolling then
<hatrix>
I still don't know what to do with that plane though
<Lyneira>
That's actually what anhedral and dihedral wing layouts are aimed at
<hatrix>
dihedral would roll the plane back to normal?.
<Lyneira>
Yep, which causes the yaw instability to dampen out
<Lyneira>
Whereas anhedral tends to roll away from normal
<Althego>
hehe, it seems kerbals didnt invent yaw dampers :)
<hatrix>
how mandatory is it to have rapiers for an ssto?
<Althego>
no
<darsie>
Hat 0.32.
<Althego>
you at least need the turbojets
<Althego>
the vectoring thing doesnt have enough speed
<Althego>
but of course rapiers are the best
<darsie>
Swivel, reliant, mammoth can do SSTO, and probably others.
<Mat2ch>
The rapiers are the best, because you will need an additional rocket engine and they are both in one, so you don't have to add more weight
<hatrix>
what about the dart?
<darsie>
Dart is good.
<Mat2ch>
well, if you wanna haul a huge tank, go full LFO ;)
<darsie>
Dart can get a tourist to orbit with just an FL-800 tank.
<darsie>
If you know how to fly.
<darsie>
Landing is tricky, though.
<darsie>
If you don't use a separator and want full recovery.
<darsie>
decoupler*
<Lyneira>
I think there's probably some configurations of sub-turbojet engines and rocket engines that can get you to orbit in a single stage (aerospike comes to mind because of the relatively high TWR), but your plane is going to be much more rocket-like than plane-like for most of the ascent
<Lyneira>
It will need a larger percentage of rocket fuel which leaves much less for the engines and wings
<Lyneira>
The airbreathing engines*
<Althego>
the problem is, the gain is mostly from the jets, since they use so little fuel. if you cant get to over 1000 m/s, they are of little use
<Althego>
and 1300 is what i would think of as good
<Lyneira>
Well, sub-jet airbreathing engines at least get you altitude and some speed while being even more efficient, but they'll need to haul a beefier rocket stage
<darsie>
Starting rocket engines at 15 km almost horizontally is more efficient, though, than from the launch pad.
<Althego>
still a very little delta v gain, copared to the speed coming from the jets
<darsie>
Yeah, but much less air and gravity losses.
<darsie>
Maybe you can start with a more efficient vacuum engine, too.
<Lyneira>
With rapiers and turbojets you can kinda get away with low-ish TWR on the rocket stage, but don't make that mistake if you try to make an SSTO with panthers and rocket engines... you need a lot of thrust on the switchover so you can get your pitch up. It helps if you're not flying horizontal but pitched up just before switchover too
<Lyneira>
You want to get out of that 15 km zone much more quickly than Rapier SSTOs
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<Eddi|zuHause>
i've never really understood how to make an SSTO. maybe i was never far enough in the tech tree?
<Eddi|zuHause>
can you make an SSTO with just the 300s tech level?
<darsie>
Eddi|zuHause: Yes, the second rocket can be SSTO.
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<darsie>
Eddi|zuHause: New career, first rocket, second rocket SSTO.
<darsie>
I could tell you how, if you like.
<Eddi|zuHause>
probably not right now
<Eddi|zuHause>
currently busy with trying to figure out a way to shimmy in a VPN to a work site
<Eddi|zuHause>
and outside of that i'm playing stellaris right now
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<Lyneira>
Important to note here is the distinctions between spaceplanes and SSTOs. Spaceplanes go to space and come back to land on a runway, SSTOs are anything that can get into orbit without splitting into pieces. In KSP, several high-thrust and reasonably efficient engines can do this just on their own given enough fuel. Some SSTOs may also be spaceplanes but they don't have to be. And the space shuttle or something like it is clearly
<Lyneira>
not an SSTO but it is a spaceplane
<Lyneira>
I think Eddi|zuHause was thinking of a low tech spaceplane SSTO rather than a pure rocket SSTO given the earlier context though.
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<VanDisaster>
if you make a big spaceplane there's certain parts of the flight envelope that you might want stages for anyway.... takeoff & top of atmospheric propulsion, for instance
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<Lyneira>
One other problem with airbreathing KSP spaceplanes is that you can only really scale up by spamming more of the same airbreathing engine, not have a few bigger ones
<Lyneira>
When your spaceplane needs to weigh 200 tons on the runway to deliver the cargo you want to orbit, you kinda need a lot of engines to get it to take off (and a lot of wing parts too, if not using procedural wings)
<Mat2ch>
Or you use mods
<Lyneira>
Well, it's been a long time but I don't really know of any mods that add a line of airbreathing rapier-like engines that cover as wide a mass range as the rocket engine selection does
<Lyneira>
I know B9 was there first with the sabre engines (1.25m and 2.5m) but that's just 2 sizes
<Mat2ch>
I thought about the scale mod, where you can scale up parts
<VanDisaster>
if you need more than 4 of the b9 sabres your plane probably won't fit on the runway
<Lyneira>
That's a fair point. Though a smaller size would be nice too
<Lyneira>
brb
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<hatrix>
ok I just got KER, how could I live without that :o
<darsie>
BTW, after perpendicular aerobraking the VTOL comes down for landing retrograde, including pitching "up" to get more lift if necessary: http://bksys.at/bernhard/temp/screenshot144.png
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<Althego>
hehe not much fuel remaining
<darsie>
nope. Requires suicide burn sort of to get down.
<darsie>
I guess I could load more LF and make a precision landing.
<darsie>
But dv to orbit is tight, too.
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<Althego>
hehe the small monitoring tool i compiled on ubuntu runs on buster
<Althego>
i didnt expect this
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<Guest46258>
I use the mod Airplane plus and cant figure out how the leading edge slats work. when i place them the correct way where they extend down they produce downward lift so rather than increasing my stall speed all it really does is forces my nose down.
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<Guest46258>
flaps work better but still similar issues
<darsie>
Manual suicide burns are a bad idea. That's a job for a computer.
<darsie>
Even Apollo used radar and a computer to come down, I guess.
<Althego>
not with a suicide burn
<Althego>
there were a bunch of programs for landing, starting with a computer timed burn, then a half manual that kept the altitude, and a full manual
<darsie>
I didn't require a full suicide burn. Still it was tricky manually.
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<hatrix>
I was about to install principa, but after watching scott's video I feel like I'd just hate myself